> driver, was waiting for all the little tardy children. The village she lived
> was the happiest of paradises: toddlers in the nurseries and four- and
> five-year-olds in kindergarten, while the teachers were teaching on an
> incredibly high level those little Hungarians. And, of course, the living
> standards were going up and up and up while, according to Ms. Durant, living
> standards have nothing whatsoever to do with economic growth. (It sure
> didn't in Kadar's Hungary!) And, of course, now everything is rotten--all
> because of capitalism.


First, the facts: I've never said it was paradise, and I've never
said, that living standard were growing, as from the end of
the seventies they were not.

All I wanted to point out, that even in a system where there
was a the terrible waste of burocracy etc, etc, some things
were positive, and even better, than in a western country,
even before the years of the loans there were good education,
nurseries, libraries, cheap culture. Is this a fact or not?

In my opinion these are also part of necessary "freedoms"
that are not enjoyed in all current "democracies", however
glorious they look to some correspondents.



>         Of course, I think that Ms. Durant is an extremely naive person, but
> she is no longer a teenager and it is unlikely that she will change her
> views. (As I mentioned once, with age we all become a little more
> conservative, but that generalization doesn't apply to Eva Durant.) So, the
> best thing is leave Ms Durant in her happy state of dreaming about the
> coming of the REAL thing.
>
>         Eva Balogh


My ego is swollen with pride to be discussed in such details,
what I am eager to hear is a valid argument aainst a future
democratically owned and controlled system, or alternatively,
a few valid points telling me how the present disasterous
trends of capitalism can be overturned.
As I mentioned earlier, I have no particular personal
advantage in believing any point better, except making
more sense. Besides, it seems that I would have a higher
standard of living in a democratic socialist system, and less
worries about the future...

Eva Durant

>
> The World Bank suggests the introduction of an entirely new social system
> because according to their calculations 45 percent of financial assistance
> [from the state] goes to those who are not in need.
>
>         Eva Balogh


Very familiar suggestion; "targetting" the poor.
The results so far for the UK: savings for the
government, nothing extra for the poor...
the middleclass/white collar people are more
knowledgeble about their rights and better at claiming
their legally owed benefits, for which they paid
themselves. That is the other side of the coin.
And they make up the voters, so no sensible
politician will touch them...

Eva Durant

>
> >Not related, due
> >>to  the market economy...
>
> That is fascinating! Could you explain that a little more fully? They are
> not related?
>

I remember south -American countries being the newest
growth miracles  in the not so distant past. I don't remember the
disappearance of poverty accompanying it.
The recent modest growth in US economy did not raise
average living standards, especially not the bottom third.

Eva Durant

> previous posts that you worked for an arm of the state that was dedicated
> to performing exactly the task I have asked you about -- stifling
> individual thought and encouraging people to actively participate in a
> lie.

Would you let me know what arm of the state I worked for?
Also I'd like to inform you, although no way a hero, but
I was as much of a critic  of that system - in the eighties -
as I am here.   Personal abuse won't help your argument one
inch.  And I am used to it.


> This might have been enough to get you a prison sentence at
> Nuremberg.

So that's what you'd do with your ideological opponents?
- if we are getting personal -


> explain why a system you worked for and helped perpetrate committed so
> many intellectual and moral crimes against those who lived under it. If

I did explain. I listed several factual reasons why the democratic
path was abandoned, and from that all the crimes you listed
happened.  This helps us to know how to go about in the
future to build in special safeguards for democracy, not
to have shortcuts to any revolution.  What you fail to address
is this argument.  Besides me being evil - I'd like to have
a discussable answer.

Eva Durant

>
>         It really doesn't matter what the source is. The problem is that no
> country can survive economically with forty percent of their working-age
> population idle!
>
>         Eva Balogh


strange, even the capitalist system in the pre-sixties
managed that, when most women were not working.  The
problem is that profits are not able to make it to
the social distribution anymore...  The system is not
capable employing all the people who are "idle",
not to mention those who
are engaged in producing socially useless stuff or
replaced by new technology.
Please stop blaming and
punishing the victims.  If anyone tells you that
"living off the state" is prefereble to anyone (except
the royals) to a decently paid and socially useful/satisfying
job, don't believe them.

Will stopping benefits create new jobs?  It will create
more determined criminals, because thats where the only
"openings" are for some strata of your brill system.
They are the ones taking chances and being creative
entrepeneurs - the true products of the system.


Eva Durant

-cut: Moscow/Beijing officials being distant-

sorry, couldn't see how this related to anything said.

>
>
> Sorry, I just don't think individual human nature will ever allow a _real_,
> cooperative, fully collectivized egalitarian society.
>
>

You have to substanciate this, if it is a claim.  Human
civilisation is the result of cooparation from start,
and the degree of cooparation improved all the time,
especially with capitalism.  I'm talking about an even
more (conscious/voluntary/democratic) cooperation for
the future, as per the logical outcome of this so far
fairly successful tendency.


>
> The fundamental problem is that non-capital "socialism" depends upon
> everyone, literally everyone, involved to be mutually altruistic and
> cooperative, not selfish.  Again, that has happened in no nation, yet.


The way I see it the opposite: you could be as selfish as never
before, as there are an abundance of goods in everyone's disposal.
(limit being ofcourse the respect for other people's safety
and freedom) if you don't need capital, after all you can eat and
wear so many things and can live in limited number of abodes...

>
> The market reflects mostly what less than altruistic people see as their
> needs and wants.  If more people are altruistic and egalitarian then
> conditions are better, if more people are not, then conditions are worse.
> However, altruism and egalitarianism cannot be forced, because if that is
> necessary, those that exert the force will be in reality more powerful and
> influential than those on the receiving end--no egalitarianism there, at
> that point...

You'd totally lost me here. Markets reflect what??
It is difficult to be altruistic if you haven't got enough
yourself, or if you see, that those who have would get bankrupt
in the system, if they try to be, so they're not.
The idea of convincing people to be "good" is more naive, than
anything I suggest...


> Finally, can we please change the title of this thread?  This sounds too
> much like less than altruistic and mutually respectful beating one another
> up.  If the human race is ever to get any better, we might as well start
> with ourselves.  Hmmm? ;-)
>

Please change it, it wasn't my choice...

Eva Durant

suummary of text: workers wouldn't participate and
act passive/conservative.  I know the feeling!
However, what else can be expected when trade unions
strikes and solidarity are painted as the source
of most evil for the last fewdecades?
Politicians appear more and more as sleazebags, but
in the same time people are feeling that they have no say,
and there is no chance for change.
However, you probably also experienced, that things
can change suddenly, a few successful social action
and suddenly there is an atmosphere and optimism of change...

(I hope to read the rest later...)

Eva Durant

Dear Janos;

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

At 07:02 PM 2/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Sam Stowe wrote:
>
>>Once again, not stupidity, but typical Prussian arrogance. The same
>>arrogance, by the way, that led the Kriegsmarine to resume unrestricted
>>submarine warfare off the U.S. coast against U.S.-registered shipping
>>despite clear warnings from the German Foreign Ministry that this would
>>draw the U.S. into the war. The same arrogance that led the Germans to
>>casually commit atrocities against civilians in Belgium in front of
>>American newspaper reporters, then wonder why everyone in the neutral
>>countries were so upset what they'd done.
>
>Dear Sam, let me ask why the US created a blocad around Cuba during
>the Cuban-crisis? Was it a typical American arrogance or rightful self-
>defence. I have to remind you that great part of those U.S.-registered
>shipping was actually weapon or warfare shipment for England and/or
>France. No doubt those prussian barbarians in the submarines did not
>really understood that killing german soldiers by american weapons is
>fine because it is done for the civilization while sinking ships is an
>ugly crime against human kind.
>
>>As I was saying, no doubt most Americans did see cultural affinities
>>between the U.S. and Britain and France by 1917. But those affinities were
>>expressed within a framework of allying themselves with Western
>>civilization against barbarism, not as some sort of mystical racial
>>solidarity with the Anglo-Saxons.
>
>Sam, are you serious? I can imagine, a teuton barbarian with blood on his
>teeth attack two virgins (England & France) but Joe (not Szalai!) grab
>his revolver, jump over the Atlantic and k..k the s..t out of that barbarian.
>Like in Holywood. Let me remind you some nice acts of that 'Western
>Civilization'. You probably know about the opium war(s) against China, when
>the Brittish attacked because the Chinise goverment was against the
> drog-dealing.
>Or in India, where millions starved to death because the Brittish sold their
>product in domping prize. Why could they do it? (hint: Royal Navy) Or the
>'szipoly' uprising(s), I saw a picture how the prisoners were executed by
>the Brits. They were tied and stood in front of canons(!). The scenario after
>the execution was not shown but you can imagine. Or the boer, and Zulu wars
>in South Africa and  so on, one can find several nice example of the cultural
>superiority. But this was not barbarism of course because no US reporter was
>around, and these victims was only africans, indians, or chinese.
>
>This barbarism, western civilization stuff is the most redicoulus. How
>can adult people still believe this propaganda material. Beside that
>I don't see any reason why the Germans can be excluded from the so
>called 'western civilization', I do not think that any bellingerent of
>the WWI was more barbarian than any other. The whole war was a barbarian,
>senseless thing where nobody fought for any 'great values' or 'civilization'
>but for selfish interests.
>
>Janos
>
Heartily agreed!  You'll have to imagine the hug and kiss that comes with
this. :-)

Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear group;

Almost forgot to mention. I am slightly acquainted with a Uighur, named
Wu'er  Cai-xi Du lait.  Yes, _that_ Wu'er.  I took him to a St. Stephen's
Day festival in 1990 in Golden Gate Park, then to the dinner at the Center.
He was impressed by what he saw.  Claimed that our Transylvanian style
costumes were nearly identical with those in parts of Sinkiang, today--and
recognized both one of the older folk-dances that Ezterlanc performed, and
the "Hungarian zither" music that Andras Bottka played. He also said he
learned from his people that "the Magyars were once a brother tribe, part of
the Onogurs (which can be spelled uinigurs, vinigurs, etc.--relative to the
pronunciation of various peoples).  Every now and then we run into each
other  and say "hi" and count ourselves lucky to both have gotten out in one
piece of an organization to which we once both belonged.

Cecilia



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Sorry, the first version had the content-based encoding which made
it hard to read. I'll try again.

Announcing the creation today of the new Unification Home Page in
Hungarian at the URL:

   http://www.cais.com/unification/hungarian/hungarian.html

The work is by Robert Granc > with minor assistance from
me, Damian Anderson >.

---

Az oldal fejlesztis alatt!

                   A MAGYARORSZaGI EGYESmTu EGYHaZ CmMLAPJA



   Image of Unification Symbol / Image of True Parents, Rev. and Mrs Moon


   A bal oldalon az Egyesmtu Egyhaz jelvinye, a jobb oldalon az alapmts
   Sun Myung Moon tiszteletes is felesige, Hak Ja Han Moon finykipe
   lathats.

     _________________________________________________________________

Az Egyesmtu Egyhaz tanmtasai



   Az Igaz Szeretet vilaganak alapjai (Building a World of True Love) -
   bevezetis egyhazunk tanmtasaiba

   Hazassag, csalad is vilagbike - az Egyesmtu Egyhaz tanmtasa a csalad
   szentsigirul. Meghmvs a Szent Esk|vure

   Sun Myung Moon tiszteletes rvvid iletrajza


     _________________________________________________________________

Nihany Web-oldal az Egyesmtu Egyhazzal kapcsolatosak kvz|l



   Kipek

   Az ftp-szerverrul beszideket, teljes kvnyveket, kipeket, stb. lehet
   letvlteni.

   A Sun Moon Egyetem Koreaban (ez a Web-oldal koreaiul van!)

     _________________________________________________________________

     Figyelem! Ez Web-oldal a szerzu, Granc Rsbert szemilyes hitvallasat
     t|krvzi, nem az Egyesmtu Egyhaz hivatalos kiadvanya.

Damian Anderson  +1-301-921-0082 Home  +1-202-267-9403 Work    
Unification Home Page http://www.cais.com/unification - Web pages in English,
French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese, Italian, Hungarian
See daily articles on alt.religion.unification, or to receive by e-mail,
Send "subscribe unification-texts your name" to 
Send "subscribe world-scripture your name"   to 

Dear Johanne;

Thanks for the reply.

At 09:49 PM 2/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 20:47 14/02/96 -0800, Celia Fa'bos-Becker wrote:
>>Dear Eva;
>>
>>At 01:06 PM 2/14/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>>There was a discussion about the sumerian link
>>>a while back. It was far from proven, was
>>>the conclusion, if I remember correctly.
>>
>>In Stephen Sisa's book that is the claim, he makes.
>
>I just got Sisa's book, *The Spirit of Hungary* and am in the process of
>reading it now. Here is what he says about the proposed Hungarian-Sumerian
link:
>
>"The Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) theory was quasi sanctioned by the state from the
>middle of the 19th. century to recent times. After World War II, however,
>this concept was challenged by a new coalition of scholars and orientalists.
>The Finno-Ugrian theory, they argue, is *based on linguistics alone,*
>without support in anthropology, archeology or written records.
>
>"The orientalists point, instead, to apparent evidence that the cradle of
>the Magyars and their language lay not in the Ural region, but in an area of
>*Central-Asia,* earlier known as the *Turanian Plain.* Now known as Soviet
>Turkestan, this area stretches from the Caspian Sea eastward to Lake
>Balchas. Ancient chronicles called this huge area *Scythia.*. . . .
>
>"Today, students of Far-Eastern history believe that the Magyars were
>strongly exposed to *Sumerian culture* as well since proto-Sumerians too,
>had inhabited the Turanian Plain until about 3000 B.C. This people then
>migrated to Mesopotamia, where they built a brilliant civilization, whose
>most important achievement was the invention of writing.
>
>"By 1950 B.C. the Sumerian empire was gone, but their *cunei form writings*
>endured on the tablets they had used. Famous linguists of the 19th century,
>including Henry C. Rawlinson, Jules Oppert, Eduard Sayous and Francois
>Lenormant soon found that knowledge of the Ural-Altaic languages -
>particularly Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian
>writings. Cunei form writing was used by the Hungarians long before their
>arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.
>
>"The similarity of the two languages strongly inspired Hungarian
>orientalists to seek a deeper *Sumerian-Hungarian connection.* To the
>present day, however, no indisputable and decisive proof has yet emerged."
>
>That doesn't exactly seem like a wholehearted endorsement of the theory,
>although he seems impressed by the findings of the linguists he refers to
above.
>
>>never looked at the proceedings of the Society of Sumerologists--to which
>>most of the real archeologists and scholars on the subject belong, for 1975,
>>or Badiny et al's work incorporating a study by 5 multi-national researchers
>>and the Society's response.
>
>There is another theory which Sisa goes into some detail about, and I find
>it rather persuasive. He continues further on:
>
>"Highly interesting in the quest for the ancient Hungarian homeland have
>been recent efforts to study the Magyar-Uygur connection. The Uygurs are a
>people with a Caucasian appearance in the Xinjiang province of China. This
>region still reflects its ancient role as a meeting place of Chinese
>civilization and Central Asia's nomadic peoples. Here, members of a dozen
>ethnic groups outnumber the nationally predominant Han Chinese. The largest
>among them are the Uygurs, 7 million strong, who still hold fast to their
>Turkic language.
>
>"The Uygurs inhabit the Tarim Basin and a chain of oases between the
>forbidding Taklamakan and Gobi deserts. Traversing the region is a 4,000
>mile trade route used by caravans traveling from China to the shores of the
>Mediterranean. "Taklamakan" in the folklore of the Uygurs means "once you
>get in, you can never get out.". . . .At the Uygurs' northern border
>stretches the Dzungarian Basin, a steppe-like region where dry grain farming
>is practiced.
>
>"The very name *Dzungaria* has a striking similarity to *Hungaria,* the
>Latin word for Hungary, a word still used in poetic terms in Hungary today.
>Northeast of Dzungaria lies the *Altai Mountain Range,* a name used by
>linguists in defining the *Ural-Altaic* language group to which Magyar also
>belongs. . . .
>
>"It was not until the 1980's that Hungarian orientalists could finally
>overcome natural and political barriers to finally take a good look at the
>Uygurs. They returned impressed by what they had seen, and one after the
>other gave glowing accounts, documented by audio-visual presentations, of
>the similarities in facial features, music and folk arts. In addition,
>reports mention that the Uygurs have an unwritten tradition about their
>kinship with the Magyars whom they call "vingirs," and who had left many
>centuries earlier, finally emerging as "conquerors" in Europe."
>
>Again, he concludes this discussion by saying that it would be premature to
>draw definite conclusions from all this until further anthropological,
>archeological, and linguistic research is done.
>
>For those interested in reading more about the Uygurs and the region of
>Xinjiang, there is an in-depth article in the latest issue of *National
>Geographic,* March 1996, with much material on the Uygurs, and especially
>fascinating archeological material, including photographs of several of the
>mummies which have been found preserved in the sand of the Taklimakan
>Desert, including a man with a sun-ray symbol painted on his temple.
>Glancing through the written material, I didn't notice any mention of
>putative links with the Magyars, but there are many references to possible
>kinships with western peoples.
>
>Thought this might be of interest.
>
>Yours,
>
>Johanne
>
>Johanne L. Tournier
>e-mail - 
>

I have Sisa's book also and talked with some of the people who worked with
him on his latest editions.  He was still unfamiliar with Badiny' (et al)'s
work.  Badiny cited some archeological work in his book also.  Also, about
22 years ago, Professor Tom Jones in his classes at the U of MN (when the
ancient history department was in its heyday there) talked about some of the
recent archeological work with which he was personally acquainted and
believed there was some link between the Magyars and Sumerians. He was one
of the professors who referred me to the works of Owen Lattimore (_Inner
Frontiers of Asia_) and Aurel Stein, and said a lot of what what they
discovered and believed is looking more and more likely.  As Badiny's work
is more recent however, it didn't seem like a great idea to cite earlier
sources at the time.

There was also a recent special on Public Television about Professor Maier's
of the University of Pennsylvania's work on the Sinkiang mummies, etc..  I
was struck by the fact that he and others wanted to immediately assume the
mummies were West European peoples somehow, and never even thought about
ancient peoples who might have been at one time either in or adjacent to
Sinkiang.  You'd think there was nothing (no people) in between China and
Germany, sometimes from some comments by some of the researchers. I have to
remember to give him a call someday...  Maybe if we could get him together
with the anthropological genetic researchers at Stanford, and some
researchers from some Hungarian university that they might agree to consider
worthy of cooperation...

Ah well, I suppose we are rather a bunch of mice compared to the herds of
elephants in today's world.  It's easy to overlook us.  Squeak! Squeak!

Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear group;

Just thought you might find some of this interesting...

Cecilia

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

>Date: 15 Feb 96 22:23:23 EST
>From: "Joseph A. Balazs" >
>To: HL >
>Subject: Way Station Hungary - Comings and Goings
>Sender: 
>
>February 15, 1996
>
>   US-Unterhandler Holbrooke in Bukarest 2/12/96 (Key points for non-German
>speakers: Holbrooke met with President Iliescu,  Foreign Minister
Melescanu, and
>Defense Minister Tinca. He came to "keep current our friends in Bucharest." Fo
r
>a "real" peace in Bosnia, Rumania's contributions are "very important," said
>Holbrooke. Holbrooke planned to return to Zagreb on the  13th.
>If "friends" can be still so called after breaking the embargo, denying pledge
d
>basic freedoms to its own people, who are the enemies and what lesser reward
>would they get? Clearly, no calling to account is even considered. JAB)
>  Bukarest (dpa) - Der amerikanische Bosnien-Unterhandler Richard
Holbrooke ist
>am Montag abend zu einem kurzen Besuch in der rumanischen Hauptstadt Bukarest
>eingetroffen. Gleich nach seiner Ankunft aus der kroatischen Hauptstadt Zagreb
>wurde er vom rumanischen Staatsprasidenten Ion Iliescu, von Ausenminister
Teodor
>Melescanu und Verteidigungsminister Gheorghe Tinca empfangen.     Er sei
>gekommen, um mit der rumanischen Regierung uber die
> Entwicklung in Bosnien zu sprechen, sagte Holbrooke. "Unsere Freunde
> in Bukarest mussen auf dem Laufenden bleiben", erklarte er vor
> Journalisten.
>
>    Fur einen "wirklichen" Frieden in Bosnien sei der Beitrag Rumaniens "sehr
>wichtig", sagte Holbrooke. Bukarest hat ein Techniker-Bataillon zum
>Friedenseinsatz in Bosnien zur Verfugung gestellt. Zu den Gesprachen mit der
>Bukarester Fuhrung wollte sich Holbrooke am Dienstag morgen ausern. Danach ist
>sein Ruckflug nach Zagreb geplant. dpa kl ga
>
>US:Rumania-Hungary treaty before NATO
>BUCHAREST, Feb. 13(UPI) -- U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke
>said Tuesday Romania and Hungary should sign a good neighbor treaty as a
>precondition to being admitted to NATO.
>   "It is high time for countries in central Europe to resolve their bilateral
>treaties and leave back all the historical legacies," Holbrooke told a press
>conference at the U.S. ambassador's residence in Bucharest.
>   Holbrooke, on a 12-hour stopover in the capital, met with Romanian Presiden
t
>Ion Iliescu and Foreign Minister Teodor Melescanu.
>   The assistant secretary of state urged Romania and Hungary to "look to the
>future," and stop being "obsessed to rectify an historical grievance."
>   Relations between the two neighboring states have chilled since the fall of
>Communism, with Hungary demanding a fair treatment of some 1,6 million ethnic
>Hungarians living in Transylvania, northwestern Romania, which was once a
>Hungarian province.
>   Despite five years of talks, the two sides' stances remain frozen in part
>because Romania refuses to accept a Council of Europe recommendation that woul
d
>grant ethnic groups the right to set up self- ruled enclaves.
>   Melescanu, who also attended the press conference, admitted that Holbrooke
>had put pressure on both nations to come to terms on the issue "as a vehicle t
o
>speed up their admission to NATO."
>   "We want a firm schedule of the negotiations, which could lead to the actua
l
>signing of the treaty in March," said Melescanu shortly before meeting the
>Hungarian Deputy Foreign Minister Ferencz Shomogy in Bucharest.
>
>Wartime allies back Potsdam expulsion pact (This clears it up. Expulsion
differs
>from ethnic cleansing not in the result, but  in that it depends on who does i
t
>and when. This presents endless, new possibilities. JAB)
>     (Adds German embassy comment, paras 9 and 10)
>     By John Mastrini
>     PRAGUE, Feb 14 (Reuter) - The victorious World War Two allies reaffirmed
>their commitment on Wednesday to a 1945 agreement authorising the expulsion of
>millions of Germans from eastern Europe, amid a row over Bonn's attitude to th
e
>pact.
>     The U.S., British and Russian embassies in Prague all made statements
>endorsing the Potsdam agreement after a furore in Czech media over German
>comments on the treaty and expulsions, a major irritant in Czech-German
>relations to this day.
>     "The decisions made at Potsdam by the governments of the United States,
>United Kingdom, and the then-Soviet Union in July and August of 1945 were
>soundly based in international law," a State Department satement issued throug
h
>the U.S. embassy said.
>     "The conference conclusions have been endorsed many times since in variou
s
>multilateral and bilateral contexts," it said.
>     Potsdam authorised Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary to expel their
German
>minorities after World War Two.
>     But with relations between Prague and Bonn already frayed, comments
>attributed to German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel that the agreement was a
mere
>political declaration caused uproar in the Czech Republic.
>     Prague and Bonn are trying to close the book on World War Two and come to
>terms on the 2.5 million "Sudeten" Germans expelled from the then
>Czechoslovakia. But negotiations on settling Germany's last unresolved questio
n
>in central Europe have hit stalemate with both sides irritably blaming the
>other.
>     Czech newspapers have seized upon a January report in the German daily
>Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung which quoted Kinkel as saying Potsdam was not
>legal recognition of the expulsions.
>     This position was confirmed by Christiana Markert, press spokeswoman
of the
>German embassy in Prague.
>     "The official German position concerning the Potsdam agreement with regar
d
>to the expulsion of the Sudeten Germans is that the Potsdam agreement does not
>justify the expulsion of the Sudeten Germans," she said.
>     But the State Department said: "The conclusions...are historical fact and
>the United States is confident that no country wishes to call them into
>question."
>     The embassy of Russia, the successor state to the Soviet Union, made
>similar comments to the Czech daily Pravo.
>     The British embassy also said Postdam was soundly based in international
>law. "The Potsdam conference recognised that the transfer of the German
>population of Czechoslovakia had to be undertaken, and that it should be
>effected in an orderly and humane manner," it said.
>     The expulsions were, in fact, anything but orderly and humane. Almost all
>Sudetens were thrown out of their homes in 1945 and 1946 and packed off to
>Germany.
>     Many died or where murdered on their way, a fact persistently raised by
>Sudeten groups in Germany, although the actual numbers are hotly disputed by
>either side.
>     Many Czechs believe that the Sudetens got what they deserved for betrayin
g
>their country and welcoming in Nazi German forces in 1938. Sudeten demands for
>compensation for confiscated poperty have also aroused anger among Czechs.
>     Czech President Vaclav Havel has said it was wrong to find all Sudetens
>collectively guilty as some had remained loyal to Czechoslovakia. But he
>rejected Sudeten property claims, saying spirits of the past should not be
>reawoken.
>     Czech citizens' groups are demanding compensation from Bonn for Nazi war
>damage similar to that already paid to other countries occupied by Germany in
>World War Two.
>     But Prague has rejected any link between this and a settlement to the
>Sudeten issue, due to be made in declarations by the Czech and German
>parliaments.
>
>Poland, Hungary, Slovakia to join OECD this year
>  PRAGUE, Feb 12 (Reuter) - Poland, Hungary and Slovakia are likely to join th
e
>Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development within months at most,
>OECD Secretary General Jean-Claude Paye said on Monday.
>     The three would form a second wave of post-communist countries to join th
e
>OECD, which groups the world's 26 most developed nations, following the Czech
>Republic's entry in December last year.
>     "It is still early to tell when the process of admission will come to an
>end. With respect to Poland, the Slovak Republic and Hungary, in all likelihoo
d
>we expect that this will be a question of weeks, maybe months, certainly not
>years," Paye told reporters during a visit to Prague.
>     Asked if he saw the central European countries joining this year, Paye
>said: "Yes, of course." He was speaking after talks with Czech Foreign Ministe
r
>Josef Zieleniec.
>     Former communist countries see OECD membership as an important stepping
>stone to membership of the European Union.
>     OECD committees on foreign investment and capital flow gave Hungary the
>go-ahead this month but stopped short of waving through Poland, which lost las
t
>year's race to be the first former East Bloc country to join the club of rich
>nations.
>
>Rumanian police chief tenders resignation (This account ignores the charge  th
e
>Deutsche Presse Agentur reports, made at a press conference: Corruption
>includes the highest levels of government. Those high level officials who are
>charged, are subsequently released for "health reasons" to continue. And,
>according to Holbrooke, these are our "friends. JAB)
>BUCHAREST, Feb 14 (Reuter) - Romania's police chief has tendered his
resignation
>to protest against what he called the authorities' tolerance of crime and
>corruption, an official said on Wednesday.
>     Interior ministry spokesman Ioan Timofte said Pitulescu had asked Prime
>Minister Nicolae Vacaroiu to accept his resignation on the grounds that the
>authorities had allegedly turned a blind eye to rampant corruption and
protected
>criminals.
>     "Pitulescu said he was disappointed that the legal system had failed to
>perform its duties and that some corrupt and newly-rich persons who have made
>their fortunes illegally are at large instead of being convicted as they
>deserve," he said.
>     Neither Pitulescu nor government officials were available for comment.
>     Timofte also said Interior Minister Doru Ioan Taracila had agreed with
>Pitulescu over the "system's failure to fight against offenders" and asked
>Pitulescu to stay in the job.
>     Corruption has spread like wildfire since Romania overthrew five
decades of
>communist rule in December 1989 and ousted and executed dictator Nicolae
>Ceausescu and wife Elena.
>     It touches almost every corner of daily life.
>     Sources at the Prosecutor-General's office told Reuters recently that
>prosecutors examined around 25,000 corruption cases last year.
>     Graft cited in the local media as well as in parliamentary debates ranges
>from clerks extorting bribes for registering the dead to cabinet ministers
>peddling influence to seal deals.
>     Last year, Pitulescu vowed to launch a ruthless war against Romania's new
>rich, saying he would resign if he failed to crack down on "those who amassed
>their fortunes through influence-peddling and corruption."
>
> Rumanischer Polizeichef wirft Justiz Korruption vor: Rucktritt 2/14/96
> Bukarest (dpa) - Der rumanische Polizeichef, Divisionsgeneral Ion Pitulescu,
>ist am Mittwoch zuruckgetreten, nachdem er der rumanischen Justiz offentlich
>Korruption vorgeworfen hatte. Dies berichtete der staatliche rumanische
>Rundfunk. Bei einer gemeinsamen Pressekonferenz mit seinem Dienstherren, dem
>rumanischen Innenminister Doru Ioan Taracila, habe Pitulescu geklagt, die
>Korruption reiche bis in die hochsten Fuhrungsebenen Rumaniens.
>
>    Wahrend die Kleinkriminellen die Gefangnisse fullen, sagte Pitulescu,
wurden
>die grosen Mafia-Bosse nach ihrer Verhaftung immer wieder aufgrund
>fadenscheiniger Krankheitsbescheinigungen freigelassen und konnten ihre
dubiosen
>Geschafte weiter betreiben. Der Polizeichef meinte damit speziell einen Iraner
,
>milliardenschwerer Import-Export-Geschaftsmann im westrumanischen Temeswar,
>gegen den unter anderem wegen Bestechung ermittelt wird.
>
>    Schon zwei Jahre zieht sich zum Arger Pitulescus der Fall des unter dem
>Spitznamen Fane Spoitoru bekannten Rumanen hin, der wegen Schutzgelderpressung
>in der Szene der auslandischen En-Gros-Handler vor Gericht steht. Spoitoru
wurde
>wegen Krankheit aus der Untersuchungshaft freigelassen, feiert aber
angeblich in
>rumanischen Gebirgskurorten rauschende Partys.  dpa kl nm
>
>East Europe's communist elite avoid prosecution
>    By David Stamp
>     PRAGUE, Feb 14 (Reuter) - For people who jailed so many of their
opponents,
>eastern Europe's communists have spent remarkably little time behind bars
>themselves in the six years since their overthrow.
>     General Wojciech Jaruzelski, who imposed martial law in Poland in 1981, i
s
>the latest former East Bloc leader who could be heading for a quiet retirement
.
>     In many countries, investigations into misdeeds under communist rule have
>become bogged down in legal and bureaucratic delays or have fizzled out
>altogether. A common denominator is widespread, but not total, public apathy.
>     Even in Germany, where prosecutors have by no means given up the struggle
,
>many of East Berlin's former elite have escaped with suspended sentences.
>     Many of the pre-1989 communist leaders are dead. Romania's Nicolae
>Ceausescu was executed and East Germany's Erich Honecker died in exile.
>Czechoslovakia's Gustav Husak died in his bed, as did Hungary's Janos Kadar wh
o
>was deposed by his own party before the end of communism.
>     But two, Jaruzelski and Bulgaria's Todor Zhivkov, are a free men and
>illustrate the problems communist-hunters face.
>     A parliamentary commission recommended this week after four years of
>deliberation that Jaruzelski should not face trial for imposing martial law to
>crush the Solidarity trade union.
>     Jaruzelski may yet face trial over his role as defence minister in
crushing
>riots in 1970 when 44 people died. But it is this kind of decision which anger
s
>anti-communists.
>     "Today evil goes unpunished. This was never supposed to be. Lies are
>rewarded. Poland is humiliated," said former Polish president and Solidarity
>leader Lech Walesa.
>     Communist era events can occupy a legal grey area and arouse few emotions
>among many.
>     Jaruzelski argued that he acted as a patriot in declaring martial law to
>avert a catastrophic Soviet invasion. Walesa, the veteran anti-communist, stil
l
>lost to ex-communist Aleksander Kwasniewski in last year's presidential
>elections.
>     Perhaps the most clear case is that of Zhivkov, who was acquitted last
week
>after appealing against a seven-year jail sentence for embezzlement.
>     He is now widely known as "Tato" or "Daddy" and surveys show that many
>Bulgarians, especially the elderly, are nostalgic for his 35-year rule,
>preferring its cosy certainties to the confusion of post-communist life.
>     Zhivkov's jolly face frequently beams out from the pages of local
>newspapers as they speculate, only half in jest, about whether the wily
>octogenarian might try to stage a comeback.
>     "He's too old for politics. Let him sit at home in the warm," said Kiril
>Georgiev, an unemployed man.
>     Romania tells a similar story of Ceausescu's family and communist cronies
>released on health grounds after short stays in comfortable prison hospitals
>equipped with colour TV.
>     Even where life is less harsh, such as in the Czech Republic, many people
>seem too busy chasing business opportunities to worry much about chasing forme
r
>leaders.
>     Milos Jakes, the communist chief overthrown during former Czechoslovakia'
s
>Velvet Revolution, does face treason charges connected with the Soviet-led
>invasion of 1968.
>     But only one top communist, Prague party chief Miroslav Stepan, served a
>prison term and it lasted less than two years.
>     Germanic efficiency has brought more East German communists before the
>courts but the results have been patchy.
>     East Germany's last hardline leader Egon Krenz is on trial with five othe
r
>politburo members for Berlin Wall killings. But Honecker and secret police
chief
>Erich Mielke were deemed too ill to stand trial and Honecker died in Chile.
>     Alexander Schalk-Golodkowski, a secret police colonel whose shady
>hard-currency deals supported East Germany, summed up the lack of communist
>repentance when he was convicted last month.
>     "I do not accept the verdict, it will do nothing for the spirit of
(German)
>reunification," he said.
>
>Hungarian PM complains of Italian border checks
>   ROME, Feb 14 (Reuter) - Hungarian Prime Minister Gyula Horn complained on
>Wednesday that Hungarians were being subjected to excessive controls at Italy'
s
>borders despite a no-visa agreement between the two countries.
>     Horn voiced his concern at a news conference after meeting outgoing prime
>minister Lamberto Dini for talks on Hungary's path towards membership of the
>European Union.
>     Italy holds the EU's rotating presidency until June.
>     Horn described bilateral relations with Italy as good but said it was
>"inconceivable" that tourists and business visitors should face rigorous
>frontier checks and that he had raised the matter with Dini.
>     He also said bilateral ministerial contacts between Italy and Hungary had
>been blocked since 1992 and should be revived.
>     Italy has faced severe political turmoil over the past four years.
Dini, an
>unelected technocrat, resigned in January and remains in office as a caretaker
>pending a solution to the latest crisis.
>     Hungary is among central and east European countries which have formally
>applied for EU membership. Accession talks will not start until after a review
>of the EU's working that begins next month and is expected to take at least on
e
>year.
>     Horn, who also met President Oscar Luigi Scalfaro on Wednesday, was due t
o
>be received in private audience at the Vatican by Pope John Paul on Thursday.
>     The Pope is expected to visit Hungary and Germany in June, according to
>Roman Catholic Church sources.
>
>Russian themes sweep Hungary's film awards
> BUDAPEST (Reuter) - Films with Russian themes dominated Tuesday night's award
>ceremony for the Hungarian Film Week, a five-day showcase for the country's
>annual cinema output.
>     Peter Gothar's Film "Letsgohang Vaska," a fantasy tale set in St
Petersburg
>with an all-Russian cast, was voted best film while Ibolya Fekete's "Bolse
>Vita," a story of two Russian buskers making their way in post-Communist
>Budapest, won the foreign critics' award and the prize for best first film.
>     "Letsgohang Vaska" also won the category of best photography for its
>cameraman Francisco Gozon.
>     Gothar's speech on receiving his award was short. "Now I won't be making 
a
>film for the next festival," he said.
>     The Budapest festival was organized in three town center cinemas and
played
>to packed houses throughout.
>     In a modest half-hour ceremony devoid of the glitter one associates with
>other festivals such as Cannes and the Oscars, chairman of the jury Mihaly
Varda
>praised the industry's artistic output. "There may be no Hungarian football bu
t
>there is certainly a Hungarian film industry," he said.
>
>
>
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Announcing the creation today of the new Unification Home Page in=20
Hungarian at the URL:

   http://www.cais.com/unification/hungarian/hungarian.html

The work is by Robert Granc > with minor assistance from=20
me, Damian Anderson >.

---

Az oldal fejleszt=E9s alatt!

                   A MAGYARORSZ=E1GI EGYES=EDT=F5 EGYH=E1Z C=EDMLAPJA
                                      =20
  =20
  =20
   Image of Unification Symbol / Image of True Parents, Rev. and Mrs Moon
  =20
  =20
   A bal oldalon az Egyes=EDt=F5 Egyh=E1z jelv=E9nye, a jobb oldalon az ala=
p=EDt=F3
   Sun Myung Moon tiszteletes =E9s feles=E9ge, Hak Ja Han Moon f=E9nyk=E9pe
   l=E1that=F3.
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
Az Egyes=EDt=F5 Egyh=E1z tan=EDt=E1sai

  =20
  =20
   Az Igaz Szeretet vil=E1g=E1nak alapjai (Building a World of True Love) -
   bevezet=E9s egyh=E1zunk tan=EDt=E1saiba
  =20
   H=E1zass=E1g, csal=E1d =E9s vil=E1gb=E9ke - az Egyes=EDt=F5 Egyh=E1z tan=
=EDt=E1sa a csal=E1d
   szents=E9g=E9r=F5l. Megh=EDv=F3 a Szent Esk=FCv=F5re
  =20
   Sun Myung Moon tiszteletes r=F6vid =E9letrajza
  =20
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
N=E9h=E1ny Web-oldal az Egyes=EDt=F5 Egyh=E1zzal kapcsolatosak k=F6z=FCl

  =20
  =20
   K=E9pek
  =20
   Az ftp-szerverr=F5l besz=E9deket, teljes k=F6nyveket, k=E9peket, stb. le=
het
   let=F6lteni.
  =20
   A Sun Moon Egyetem Kore=E1ban (ez a Web-oldal koreaiul van!)
  =20
     _________________________________________________________________
  =20
     Figyelem! Ez Web-oldal a szerz=F5, Granc R=F3bert szem=E9lyes hitvall=
=E1s=E1t
     t=FCkr=F6zi, nem az Egyes=EDt=F5 Egyh=E1z hivatalos kiadv=E1nya.


Damian Anderson  +1-301-921-0082 Home  +1-202-267-9403 Work    .=
com
Unification Home Page   http://www.cais.com/unification (English)
Web Pages in French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese, Ital=
ian
See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail,
Send "subscribe unification-texts your name" to 
Send "subscribe world-scripture your name"   to 

Dear Sam;

At 12:39 PM 2/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

>As I was saying, no doubt most Americans did see cultural affinities
>between the U.S. and Britain and France by 1917. But those affinities were
>expressed within a framework of allying themselves with Western
>civilization against barbarism, not as some sort of mystical racial
>solidarity with the Anglo-Saxons.

Geez, I wonder if I'll ever be able to get Barbara Tuchman's _The Proud
Tower_ off my lap today (it keeps snapping out of my clipholder, since it's
too thick for the clips.)  Well, Sam, you asked for it again.  Section 3:
"The End of A Dream" (America 1890-1902, roughly) pages 177-78.

        "The Anti-Imperialists did not sweep up with them the Populists and
the followers of Bryan and those soon to be known as the Progressives.
While these groups opposed standing armies, big navies, and foreign
entanglements and were in theory anti-imperialist, anti-militarist and
anti-European, they were simultaneously imbued with a fever to fight Spain
as a cruel European tyrant stamping out liberty at America's doorstep.
Bryan called for war as loudly as Theodore Roosevelt and in sincere
flattery, if less promptly, had himself appointed Colonel of the Third
Nebraska Volunteers, too late to see action in Cuba.  Most vociferous of all
was a young lawyer from Indianapolis, already famous at thirty-six as a
political orator and soon to become a leader of the Progressives.  The taste
of empire, the rising blood of nationalism expressed itself in terms of
wide-flung dominion, found in Albert Beveridge its most thrilling trumpet.
Like Bryan, he possessed that dangerous talent for oratory which can
simulate action and even thought.  The war sent Beveridge into transports of
excitement.
        'We are a conquering race,' he proclaimed in Boston in April, even
before the victory of Manila Bay.  'We must obey our blood and occupy new
markets and if necessary new lands...In the Almighty's infinite
plan...debased civilizations and decaying races' were to disappear 'before
the higher civilization of the nobler and more virile types of man.'
Pan-Germans in Berlin and Joseph Chamberlain in England also talked of the
mission of the superior race, variously Teutonic or Anglo-Saxon, but
Beveridge had nothing to learn from them; it was all his own.  He saw in
present events 'the progress of a mighty people and their free institutions'
and the fulfillment of the dream 'that God put into the brain of Jefferson,
Hamilton, John Bright, Emerson, Ulysses S. Grant, and other 'imperial
intellects;'' the dream 'of American expansion until all the seas shall
bloom with that flower of liberty, the flag of the great Republic.'  It was
not so much liberty as trade that Beveridge saw following the flag.
American factories and American soil, he said were producing more than the
American people could consume.  'Fate has written our policy for us; the
trade of the world must and shall be ours... We shall cover the ocean with
our merchant marine.  We will build a navy to the measure of our
greatness... American law, American order, American civilization will plant
themselves on those shores hitherto bloody and benighted but by those
agencies of God henceforth to be made beautiful and bright."

Then there is the story of Capt. Mahan whom Tuchman describes as "the
apotheosis" of racial Darwinism.  Although Mahan himself generally believed
in the ultimately to be proved superiority of America--largely through its
navy, his recognition of naval power being the key to world domination,
caused him to be lionized by both the English Patricians--and
government--and Kaiser Wilhelm.  This is in section 3, also.

The beliefs in "racial superiority that were vaguely Teutonic or
Anglo-Saxon" may have been more common on the European side of the Atlantic,
but also existed in the U.S.  But a concept of American superiority also
existed, and was more common on this side.  The problem is how did Americans
themselves regard the nature of Americans.  At that time it certainly did
not include the Blacks, Hispanics, Asians or Native Americans.  What was
left?  Mostly Anglo-Saxons/Teutonics and Celts whom with the possible
exception of some of the Irish considered themselves as American as the
Anglo-Saxon/Teutonics.  We didn't have an awful lot of French in the U.S..
Thus it might be argued, that if people took their now ridiculous beliefs to
greater thought, they probably considered _the_ superior American as a kind
of superior Anglo-Saxon or Teutonic.  Tuchman does point out briefly the
American demographics and what was included and excluded in American
government and society.  She has a nice little segment about one element of
the anti-imperialists wanting to stop the nonsense like the Spanish-American
War because we might have to let in more undesireable non-white peoples.

I'm sure you remember that Native Americans didn't get the right to vote
until after World War I, and although Blacks had the right after the Civil
War, it was rendered largely impotent by the poll taxes of numerous states
until nearly 80 years after the right had supposedly been granted.

Sorry, I've read and re-read Tuchman's book and still contend that we felt
some sort of racial and cultural affinity that became focused on England, as
the lesser of the evils courting us--just as they seem to have decided we
were the lesser of "their" demons.  Again, perhaps someone else would like
to read this book and venture an opinion?



>
>Once again, your anti-English bias has overwhelmed your sense of
>historical accuracy. Let's hope Barbara Tuchmann and David Fisher Hackett
>(did I get those in the right order?) don't monitor this newsgroup and, if
>they do, they don't mind having their work so grossly misinterpreted. And
>I beg of you, once again, to stop using this awkward and untrue opposition
>of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon cultures in Southern society. There is no
>scholarly basis for this other than a wild misreading of Hackett Fisher.
>(There -- at least I'm bound to get it right once) As always, I bow to Eva
>Balogh's opinion in this particular thread.
>Sam Stowe
>
Sorry, but since you said earlier you have only scanned parts of David
Hackett Fischer's book, I have to encourage you to read what you may have
instead misread through lack of thoroughness.  Also perhaps it's time for
you to refresh your familiarity with Ms. Tuchman's _The Proud Tower_.  Since
the former is about 900 pages long, and the latter over 600, merely scanning
parts of either doesn't do either of them justice.  However, in both cases,
I sincerely hope some one else in this group will read one or both and add
to this, and maybe contribute some new sources also.

Who knows? If enough people read both, and more, we may all come up with an
entirely different rationalized consensus than either of our own
perceptions/interpretations.

Respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Eva;

At 10:39 AM 2/15/96 -0800, you wrote:

>At 08:47 PM 2/14/96 -0800, Cecilia wrote in connection with my contention
>that Poland is in better position economically today than Hungary is, due to
>the shock therapy:
>
>>Slight problem with this.  Growth from what level, hmmm?  From "0" is bound
>>to be a lot more than from something higher.
>
>        Certainly. There is nothing new about this, but the difference
>between Polish and Hungarian economies were not so great that it would
>account for an economic growth three times greater in the former than in the
>latter. Polish GDP/person (1993): $2,270.00; in Hungary (1993): $3,300.00.
>All the more developed East-European countries had very similar GDP figures.
>Exception is, on the richer side, Slovenia, and, on the poorer side,
>Romania, Bulgaria, and, of course, Albania. But the Visegrad four's economic
>developments are fairly comparable.
>        Eva Balogh
>
True, but again "economic growth" is only a measurement of quantity of
transactions, not quality, nor efficiency--including how many have to be
done over because they weren't done right the first time, or how many are
corrections of mistakes, etc.  This affects all countries, though, not just
East Central Europe. I think quality of life measurements are probably
better.  People react to their own perceptions of their own lives more so
than to what government officials are trying to convince them of how they
should feel.  That's been the problem for U.S. politicians lately. It took
them awhile to figure it out, but gradually they're getting there.  It will
be interesting to see how many of them retain the lessons after November,
1996, however.

Anyhow, after pondering the "Atlantic Monthly" article and remembering a few
related discussions with the late Dr. Walter Heller, and the current Dr.
Lee, I no longer pay much attention to figures of so-called "economic
growth."  I just don't think they're valid for what all economists--and
politicians--want to relate to them, much less voters.

Respectfully,


Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA







AE0M, Tony Becker -  - Silicon Valley, U.S.A.

The Portland Film Festival is this week showing a Hungarian film titled
"The Outpost."

Has anyone seen it?  Does anyone know anything about it?

The synopsis in the Festival program sounds dreary in the extreme.  Is it
worth standing in long lines to see?

Thanks.

Richard Alexander   )

What is the actual evidence, besides a few ancient
legends and similarity in language? What are
these similarities?  What about the finns?
Did they traveland were the same as hungarians
in that uygur place?, and been related
to those civilised sumerians?  How did they go
back to their nomad ways, after being urban
for so long in mezopotamia?

Eva Durant

>>
>> Doug understands the inherent emptiness of life.  Capitalist angst, anyone?
>>
>> Pssst!  Doug?
>>
>> Let's change the discussion.
>>
>> Are you interested in channeling or crystals?  If your into crystals, I've
>> got a real good Hungarian crystal that's reputed to cure just about anything
>> you may suffer from.  It's worked wonders for me!
>>
>> By the way, whats your sign?
>>
>> Joe Szalai
>>
>Darren would like in on thsi crystal business. Scorpio is my sing. What
>can it cure, anything for grad students that don't sleep?
>
>Darren


Darren,

        Sorry I can't help you with sleeping, or with the crystals.
Although for those with an insomnia problem, I might suggest you keep
reading Joe and Eva's  posts.  I'm beginning to think that they is an
adherent of one or more eastern religions since he likes to keep droning on
with a mantra like quality.  Utopian bliss, blah, blah, socialist economic
progress, blah, blah, capitalism bad, socialism good, blah, blah.

Tovarisch Joe,

        When you come out of the fog of religious extasy that you've
encased yourself in (socialists are in my view sort of like religious
zealots in their dream of a nirvana like heaven on earth and belief in the
godlike pronouncements of Marx, Lenin et al) you might actually read some
of the posts that have questioned socialism as a viable socio-economic
system.  Had you done so, you would find that at least those posts that
I've written show a strong belief that humans don't fit the mold required
by socialist theory.  My stance has been pragmatic and somewhat cynical of
human generosity and willingness to forgo the individual for the greater
good.  Perhaps that's the cop in me coming out. Anyway, the allusion to
crystals and channeling is humorous, but if anyone here has a mystical view
of the power of humans to transcend their present state into some zombie
like socialist new man....well, look in the mirror.


Regards,


Doug Hormann

>>
>> The problem is that those filthy rich capitalists are the ones who generate
>> economic growth. They are the ones who have business sense; who have the
>> vision; who have the drive. It isn't you Joe or even me! You sit in your
>> library and I would gladly sit at the desk going over documents--you and I
>> don't make money. They do. And thanks to them we manage to live quite well.
>> So, you have to bear with them.
>>
>
>I think you have the burden to prove this now. I can only
>see  very few individuals amongst the beautiful people,
>who are creative in a socially useful sense.
>
>This argument, that the rich needs incentives to be creative,
>while everybody else gets idle if they are adequatly
>rewarded, is somewhat lacking.
>
>>
>> From the above it is quite clear that taxing the enterpreneurs to death and
>> give it to the poor will actually do our economic life in.
>>
>
>Even if you could get away with that, it would do no good, if you
>leave the structure of capitalism intact.  We have to own the
>wealth productive forces and capabilities together and
>democratically.
>
>Eva Durant


Oh, I see!  Eva has decided that she is the one who is best capable of deciding
:

>>who are creative in a socially useful sense.

Jesus, I hope I make it on that list!  We all know what happens to those
found to be less than desireable "in a socially useful sense".

Uncle Joe (Stalin not Szalai) move over.  A new face has appeared ready to
step into your shoes and guide us all along the true path of enlightenment!


 Auntie Eva anyone?

Regards,




Doug Hormann

Everyone who thinks Elvtars Durant is embarrassing herself
>with her transparent hypocrisy, say "Aye." All those who don't, say "No."
>Sam Stowe


Aye!

Doug Hormann

>At 12:01 PM 2/15/96 -0500, Doug Hormann wrote:
>
>>        When talking about the billions wasted on military expenditures
>>lets not forget that spent by the former Soviet and the current communist
>>regimes.  Capitalism has no patent on gross military budgets.
>
>Nobody had a patent on gross military budgets.  All military budgets are gross
.
>
>Joe Szalai


I'm certainly hallucinating, but do Uncle Joe and I agree on something?


Doug Hormann

At 9:49 PM 2/15/96, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>At 20:47 14/02/96 -0800, Celia Fa'bos-Becker wrote:
>>Dear Eva;
>>
>>At 01:06 PM 2/14/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>>There was a discussion about the sumerian link
>>>a while back. It was far from proven, was
>>>the conclusion, if I remember correctly.
>>
>>In Stephen Sisa's book that is the claim, he makes.
>
>I just got Sisa's book, *The Spirit of Hungary* and am in the process of
>reading it now. Here is what he says about the proposed Hungarian-Sumerian
>link:
>
>"The Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) theory was quasi sanctioned by the state from the
>middle of the 19th. century to recent times. After World War II, however,
>this concept was challenged by a new coalition of scholars and orientalists.
>The Finno-Ugrian theory, they argue, is *based on linguistics alone,*
>without support in anthropology, archeology or written records.

Who are the members of this new coalition of "scholars"? No member of the
Hungarian Academy of Scieces, the Historical Institute or professor in
Budapest, Debrecen, Szeged etc denies the Finno-Ugric connection.

>"The orientalists point, instead, to apparent evidence that the cradle of
>the Magyars and their language lay not in the Ural region, but in an area of
>*Central-Asia,* earlier known as the *Turanian Plain.* Now known as Soviet
>Turkestan, this area stretches from the Caspian Sea eastward to Lake
>Balchas. Ancient chronicles called this huge area *Scythia.*. . . .

Hungarians historians locate the proto-Hungarians between the Aral Sea and
the Caspian. There is no evidence, anthropolgical, lingusitic,
archiological to any of the above.

>"Today, students of Far-Eastern history believe that the Magyars were
>strongly exposed to *Sumerian culture* as well since proto-Sumerians too,
>had inhabited the Turanian Plain until about 3000 B.C. This people then
>migrated to Mesopotamia, where they built a brilliant civilization, whose
>most important achievement was the invention of writing.

Again, who are these students? Where is the evidence? proof? The
Hungarians, that is the Finno-Ugrians could not write in 3000 B.C.
>
>"By 1950 B.C. the Sumerian empire was gone, but their *cunei form writings*
>endured on the tablets they had used. Famous linguists of the 19th century,
>including Henry C. Rawlinson, Jules Oppert, Eduard Sayous and Francois
>Lenormant soon found that knowledge of the Ural-Altaic languages -
>particularly Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian
>writings. Cunei form writing was used by the Hungarians long before their
>arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.

Hungarians became familiar with the writing during their stay in Etelkoz.
Their alphabet is similar to that of the Greeks. That process took place
between the 6th and 9th centuries. The Hungarian language has a common
grammatical structure with the languages of the Finno-Ugrian language
families.


>
>There is another theory which Sisa goes into some detail about, and I find
>it rather persuasive. He continues further on:
>
>"Highly interesting in the quest for the ancient Hungarian homeland have
>been recent efforts to study the Magyar-Uygur connection. The Uygurs are a
>people with a Caucasian appearance in the Xinjiang province of China. This
>region still reflects its ancient role as a meeting place of Chinese
>civilization and Central Asia's nomadic peoples. Here, members of a dozen
>ethnic groups outnumber the nationally predominant Han Chinese. The largest
>among them are the Uygurs, 7 million strong, who still hold fast to their
>Turkic language.
>
>"The Uygurs inhabit the Tarim Basin and a chain of oases between the
>forbidding Taklamakan and Gobi deserts. Traversing the region is a 4,000
>mile trade route used by caravans traveling from China to the shores of the
>Mediterranean. "Taklamakan" in the folklore of the Uygurs means "once you
>get in, you can never get out.". . . .At the Uygurs' northern border
>stretches the Dzungarian Basin, a steppe-like region where dry grain farming
>is practiced.
>
>"The very name *Dzungaria* has a striking similarity to *Hungaria,* the
>Latin word for Hungary, a word still used in poetic terms in Hungary today.
>Northeast of Dzungaria lies the *Altai Mountain Range,* a name used by
>linguists in defining the *Ural-Altaic* language group to which Magyar also
>belongs. . . .
>
>"It was not until the 1980's that Hungarian orientalists could finally
>overcome natural and political barriers to finally take a good look at the
>Uygurs.

The investigation was done by journalists and non-specialists. Ancient
Hungarian art and music contain Turkic motives. This is due to the long
co-habitation of Hungarian and Turkic tribes on the Russia steppes from the
5th to the 9th centuries. Hungarians were also in contacts with Persian
peoples as early as the 5th c. B.C.

The whole Summerian connection is the pseudo-scientific invention of a
certain emigre group of political extremism to boot.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Dear Eva;

At 01:49 PM 2/16/96 +0100, you wrote:
>-cut: Moscow/Beijing officials being distant-
>
>sorry, couldn't see how this related to anything said.
>

If the factory workers, or farm workers, or whatever truly were in an
egalitarian collective society in which the workers made the decisions, they
wouldn't be made in capitol cities by bureacrats who either never held
factory, farm, or whatever jobs, or last held them 20, 30 or 40 years
previous to decisions being made.  The five year plans for production, and
the yearly quotas within them were set in capitol cities, not in the
factories and fields by the workers themselves.  (Not much different,
actually than what goes on in the U.S., either--look at the nonsense over
internet and telecomm. bills by so many people who still don't use
computers, much less are really on the net. ;-)  )
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I just don't think individual human nature will ever allow a _real_,
>> cooperative, fully collectivized egalitarian society.
>>
>>
>
>You have to substanciate this, if it is a claim.  Human
>civilisation is the result of cooparation from start,
>and the degree of cooparation improved all the time,
>especially with capitalism.  I'm talking about an even
>more (conscious/voluntary/democratic) cooperation for
>the future, as per the logical outcome of this so far
>fairly successful tendency.
>

Apparently I didn't word this as well as could have been.  The point is not
cooperative alone, but egalitarian as well.  We have evolved more
transactions--and confrontations--simultaneously because not all the
cooperation has been voluntary and egalitarian.  Just one example, colonies
for the big powers.  Yes there is some economic cooperation there, and even
dependency, but were the colonies consulted and allowed to voluntarily
negotiate the types of relations?  In a few cases, maybe, but in most, no.
Then their are the so-called military co-operations, alliances and
satellites.  When Austria-Hungary tried to pull free of the war in 1916, the
Germans literally put the Austro-Hungarian royal family under a kind of
house arrest (see _The Last Habsburg_, etc.)  The result was Austria-Hungary
stayed in the war, but it's debatable that this was an
egalitarian,voluntarily cooperative arrangement of both parties.

>
>>
>> The fundamental problem is that non-capital "socialism" depends upon
>> everyone, literally everyone, involved to be mutually altruistic and
>> cooperative, not selfish.  Again, that has happened in no nation, yet.
>
>
>The way I see it the opposite: you could be as selfish as never
>before, as there are an abundance of goods in everyone's disposal.
>(limit being ofcourse the respect for other people's safety
>and freedom) if you don't need capital, after all you can eat and
>wear so many things and can live in limited number of abodes...


One would think that yes.  But how do we explain all these millionaires and
banana republic elites with small families and multiple mansions and 30 and
40 classic cars, etc. and the fact that so many of them never seem to be
satisfied?
>>
>> The market reflects mostly what less than altruistic people see as their
>> needs and wants.  If more people are altruistic and egalitarian then
>> conditions are better, if more people are not, then conditions are worse.
>> However, altruism and egalitarianism cannot be forced, because if that is
>> necessary, those that exert the force will be in reality more powerful and
>> influential than those on the receiving end--no egalitarianism there, at
>> that point...
>

>You'd totally lost me here. Markets reflect what??
>It is difficult to be altruistic if you haven't got enough
>yourself, or if you see, that those who have would get bankrupt
>in the system, if they try to be, so they're not.
>The idea of convincing people to be "good" is more naive, than
>anything I suggest...

People need food, clothing, shelter, sanitation and medical care to survive.
However, the quantity, types and quality of each are all subjective choices
and people may accept/demand more or less than they really need depending
upon both how well they really know their own needs.  Look at how many obese
people there are in the U.S. who eat all the time, feel hungry and just
comply with their feelings, yet do not actually need the amount of calories
they consume.  Or conversely, look at how many people in many countries
where political change may be difficult but not impossible cram themselves
into shacks with many family members rather than getting together with the
quantities of other people in similar circumstances and demanding better
wage laws and environmental conditions to enable them to earn what they
really need.
>
>> Finally, can we please change the title of this thread?  This sounds too
>> much like less than altruistic and mutually respectful beating one another
>> up.  If the human race is ever to get any better, we might as well start
>> with ourselves.  Hmmm? ;-)
>>
>
>Please change it, it wasn't my choice...

Hopefully, done!

Best regards,

Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Eva;

At 09:14 AM 2/16/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> >Not related, due
>> >>to  the market economy...
>>
>> That is fascinating! Could you explain that a little more fully? They are
>> not related?
>>
>
>I remember south -American countries being the newest
>growth miracles  in the not so distant past. I don't remember the
>disappearance of poverty accompanying it.
>The recent modest growth in US economy did not raise
>average living standards, especially not the bottom third.
>
>Eva Durant
>
Heartily agreed!  My family did business in Mexico (side business that my
parents were originally planning to evolve into a semi-retirement business,
not trusting Social Security even then) for almost 20 years.  We regularly
visited many areas not usually seen by tourists, in addition to some tourist
areas.  We only saw continuous deterioration of infrastructures, and more
poverty, not less.  It became so overwhelming we just couldn't
psychologically deal with it.  We wanted to do whatever we could whenever we
saw need, but our own resources were limited and it was impossible to help
all we wanted to help.  People with real need had to be turned away, and it
got so we couldn't stand that any more.

The business involved crystalline minerals for collectors and researchers,
and jewelry minerals.  Since these are often associated with mines in
operation for metals, we went to many small mining towns to purchase these
things.  The workers were allowed to salvage crystals and jewelry minerals
because they weren't the business of the mine, and thus could sell them for
extra money.  Apparently we were more fair buyers than most--we were
typically mobbed.  However, even the salvaging/scavenging involves hard
work.  Crystal clusters don't just pop out at you from the hard rock or clay
or whatever and say "here I am, just pick me up and go sell me."  Therefore,
we tried to pay for the work, as well as the quality of the materials.


Anyhow, it's been over 10 years since the family ended the business, but
we've made periodic trips back to Mexico for other reasons.  My parents did
develop friends, for instance in some of these areas.  So we continue to be
fairly up-to-date about conditions in a number of areas.  True, this isn't
strictly scientific, but between the increasing hordes of refugees and
immigrants still coming mostly to the state in which I live, and these
experiences, we must conclude that Mexico is worse off now, than it was
nearly 30 years ago--Echeverria and all.

Respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Eva;

At 03:04 PM 2/16/96 +0100, you wrote:
>What is the actual evidence, besides a few ancient
>legends and similarity in language? What are
>these similarities?  What about the finns?
>Did they traveland were the same as hungarians
>in that uygur place?, and been related
>to those civilised sumerians?  How did they go
>back to their nomad ways, after being urban
>for so long in mezopotamia?
>
>Eva Durant
>
>Badiny, and to a certain extent Lattimore, point to burial practices,
artifacts; particularly remnants of clothing, pottery, etc., weapons and
tools also.  Since most of the areas they lived weren't exactly equatorial
swamps, a surprising amount has survived.

The Finns initially went with the Magyars from the Tigris Euphrates
northward after the defeat by the Elamites (about 1950 BCE), and apparently
kept going north at that point.  While there was kind of an exodus led by
Sze chen (for real) of a large portion of the people that apparently ended
up in what is now northwest China, not all the people went that way. Some
retreated simply into the mountain areas of West Asia into city states that
persisted awhile longer, others went into Russia and gradually kept going.

Since the Sumerians already had bronze, and a pictographic writing, among
other things, it is hypothesized that since they were already ancient when
the first Chinese dynasty, the Shang was emerging, the Sumerian exiles may
have taught the Chinese the manufacture of bronze, etc..  It's long been
known that bronze manufacture did not originate in China.  The Shang bronzes
are too sophisticated, and there have been no levels of more primitive
artifacts found.  This was taught in anthropology classes even 30 years ago.
The use of the horse and chariot also originated elsewhere, and the first
burial practices of the Shang resemble greatly those of the Sumerians, but
the personal effects aren't all the same, so it's still pretty clear the
Sumerians are not Chinese.  (Also the bones found in the graves indicate
they were different.)

The Magyars probably never became as nomadic as has sometimes been thought.
Western China and the deserts of Khotan, etc. have numerous layers of oasis
towns, etc. going back more than 2 millenia.  However, water and climate
conditions changed, and populations grew, causing dislocation and expansion.
Sisa's book, also, notes that the recently discovered early Magyar grave
sites indicate the Magyars migrated with all the trappings of settled
agriculture--including bags of seeds, in addition to herd animals. They also
had very sophisticated metallurgy.

The movements of the Sumerian-Magyars can probably be better compared with
the expansion of the Eastern seaboard populations in the Americas, westward.
Small towns around meeting halls and general stores appeared almost as soon
as the first farmhouses.  Immigration westward usually took place in large
groups of wagons of families--and animals, and seeds and cuttings, just like
what Sisa describes.  When lands played out, or there were droughts, entire
towns moved, also.


Hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA


By the way, the "proto-Sumerians" actually started out about 8-9000 BCE in
the Balkans, Danube Basin, around the Black Sea and Turkey.  However
according to two "Scientific American" articles on climate in 1978 and 1987,
and James Burke's television series, "The Weather Machine," there were
climate and water changes about 5,000 BCE that forced them southward.  What
happened was the melting glaciers had gotten locked behind a few loose dirt,
organic matter and ice dams in a few places and those finally gave way.  The
Great Salt Lake in Utah is what remains of a much larger body of water that
finally pushed past a similar dam near what is now Wendover, Utah at about
the same time, and flooded and made a swamp for years a region below that
"dam."  The Danube Basin was similarly flooded.  Then there was another problem
.

All the melting ice became too much for the ocean currents (also the
development of a few huge swamps filled with cold water where there had been
none previously) caused both a mini-ice-age and changes in regional
climates.  Now you had an even colder, wetter situation for early developing
agriculture of the proto-Sumerians.  Finally, even the mini-ice-age wasn't
enough to undo what had just happened at the start of that.  The sea level
of the Mediterranean had finally risen enough to turn a westward flowing
river from a fresh-water lake into the largely eastward flowing Straits of
the Bosporus.  Think about what a huge influx of salt water suddenly might
have done to regional agriculture around the formerly Black Lake.



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Doug;

At 10:34 AM 2/16/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>At 12:01 PM 2/15/96 -0500, Doug Hormann wrote:
>>
>>>        When talking about the billions wasted on military expenditures
>>>lets not forget that spent by the former Soviet and the current communist
>>>regimes.  Capitalism has no patent on gross military budgets.
>>
>>Nobody had a patent on gross military budgets.  All military budgets are
gross.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>
>I'm certainly hallucinating, but do Uncle Joe and I agree on something?
>
>
>Doug Hormann

>

Well I did warn everybody about the well-meaning friends and significant
others with the Alice B. Toklas brownies, riesling, beer and saki...  Are
you also seeing 3-foot tall samurai warriors walking around your computer room?
;-)

Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

>>
>> >What I cannot understand is, that the people who are so much
>> >against teenage pregnancies are also the ones who would
>> >ban sex-education in schools and abortion on demand/free.
>> >
>> >Eva Durant
>>
>> WHAT IS THERE NOT TO UNDERSTAND!!     Eva, this is precisely why your
>> utopian, everybody of one mind working together, socialist theory won't
>> work.
>
>
>You didn't get my point. I did not complain about different
>opinions here, but demonstrated  their contradiction.
>If you download stuff, might as well read it carefully,
>and than you'll understand, that the democratic and non-
>capitalist system I think would work better than the one we have now,
>would actually develop the individuality better.
>
>Eva Durant


No Eva, I understand your point perfectly.  I just don't believe it.


Regards,

Doug Hormann

I will be traveling to Budapest on or about June 20th.

Question:  Will Hungary recognize my U. S. driver's license, or is an
international license required?  I've gotten conflicting answers from some
outdated tourist guides and am hoping someone on the list might have an
authoritative answer.

Thanks in advance,


Doug Hormann

At 12:58 15/02/96 -0800, Celia Fa'bos-Becker responded:

<snip snip> (borrowed from James Doepp)

>First of all, I like the English people, mostly, it's _some_ of the darned
>"patricians" to use Barbara Tuchman's description I have a problem with--as
>well as some of the darned "patricians" in the U.S., and a few other
>countries as well.

Are you seriously saying Bill Clinton and John Majors are patricians? Or are
you implying that it is the patricians behind the scenes who are actually
calling the shots? That is what you seem to be saying below.
  The problem is, when it's patricians in the U.S. and
>England, they generally have a lot more effect on the rest of the world than
>say those in Mexico or Indonesia--or even Russia.  They also claim to hold
>higher standards of altruism and responsibility--ergo we should trust them
>running huge corporations and governments.  It's the hypocrisy of those who
>have the education, culture, freely given support and trust of and in their
>countries to be better human beings and merit respect as real leaders but
>behave like third world types and claim to be otherwise.
>
>The people I love and want to trust behave too often like a 600 pound
>gorilla or bear and not an Atlas.

I have an automatic problem believing in the good intentions of anyone who
is seeking power over me or anyone else.
>
>Next item: fuzzifying the muddification.  I had to think about this, because
>I still have to work with some people, and may have to put up with them
>after November 1996.  I can't be effective if I say too much and lose access
>to them.  So, I'm not going to name names, and I'll have to hope that the
>following helps clarify the situation.
>
>I was approached in 1992, several months before the national convention by
>
<snip snip>

>So, at times I have spoken by telephone with several very top aides to the
>President and Vice-president.  I have met with a couple of people in person
>who over the past four years have become key advisers in the State
>department.  I met with the interface to the White House on the Armed
>Services Committee in the House of Representatives.
>
>Suffice to say, I constantly found myself confronting and trying to overcome
>the same darned attitude, over and over again.  The best expression of it
>came from the Armed Services committee interface: "you East Central
>Europeans should forget about trying to get us to listen to you about
>anything in East Central Europe, especially you Hungarians.  Don't you know
>that most people around here still consider you responsible for starting
>World War I and being allies of Hitler?  You can't be trusted to have your
>own self defense or run yourselves."  Hungarians?--"quit complaining about
>the treatment to your minorities--you did the same thing to them for
>centuries.  You deserve what's happening now."   Also, "you're exaggerating
>the problem."

Speaking as an American citizen, (I'm a dual citizen, now, actually) I think
I can say truthfully that my perception is closer to the opinion given by
Sandor Lengyel in his earlier post. I really think most Americans are just
plain ignorant of the countries of Eastern Europe, with the possible
exception of Russia, Poland, and to some extent the former Czechoslovakia.
Before Yugoslavia broke up, I don't believe most Americans knew that the
country was a federation loosely held primarily by loyalty to General Tito,
either.

By the way, in the very little I ever heard about the Central Powers in WWI
and the Axis in WWII, I don't think I ever heard anything about the
Hungarians being on the wrong side, even though in WWI, of course, Austria
was referred to as Austria-Hungary.

In any case, I do think it is important that Hungarians not be left with too
much of a complex about the possible perceptions of Westerners toward them
as former enemies. Americans have such a limited sense of history in any
case, that I believe most of them have forgotten which of the smaller
countries were involved on what side anyway. After all, they have almost
unreservedly embraced the Germans and the Japanese; it would be pretty
hypocritical at the least to hold a grudge against the Hungarians.

Although that guy was probably a minor little flunkey whose opinion counts
for absolutely nothing anyway, it is surprising that he purported to know so
much about Hungary and then was obviously ignorant (unless he was just
jerking your chain) about the fact that Hungarians were far more generous
and enlightened in their treatment of minorities than any other nation I can
think of in Central or Eastern Europe.
>
>Regarding the refugees pouring in from the Voivodina and Transylvania, the
>classic had to be the response from a very high ranking State department
>official: "well, that was a problem recently, but the rate has slowed and
>the Romanians and Serbians assure us they're working on imf problems and need.
"
> Regarding Croatians and Bosnians,
>it was even worse, "UN officials were siphoning off money, Slovenians were
>charging huge bribes for anything to pass through their country, and
>militias of all sorts were hijacking a lot of trucks to sustain their
>soldiers."  In short, refugee aid anywhere in southeastern Europe was a
>complete disaster.  Oh yes, we heard from several sources that "to avoid
>jeopardizing the UN efforts to bring peace to the region, ABC and CNN were
>both asked personally by the President not to show their film footage on
>this situation."  Both network heads complied.  After this expensive, futile
>tour, now neither network wants to spend much time in the region--except
>when it is clear to them the top U.S. officials approve of their visits.
>(That's from an insider at ABC.)

Interesting, but more an example of Clinton's concern to restrict stories
which reflect unfavorably on his administration's policies in general than
an example of hostility to Hungary, it would seem.
>
>Now besides that, before 1994, there were the very public statements, as
>well as some semi-private ones to the Hungarian and German ambassadors, made
>to Hungary by both Prime Minister Majors and President Clinton warning them
>not to aid the Croatians or else suffer sanctions.

Wasn't there an embargo being enforced against all sides in the conflict by
the West at that time?


 Never mind the fact that
>a heck of a lot of victims from Vukovar and Osijek were actually Hungarians.
>It's ironic that now the Clinton administration is taking credit for a wise
>decision to let the Hungarians and Germans help and thus stop the Serbians
>at least in Croatia.

Agreed, but that is no different than Clinton claiming credit for bringing
peace to Northern Ireland. He has a tendency (that's putting it mildly) to
make self-serving claims about a lot of things he really is not entitled to
the credit for.

 I think my late friend, the former governor of
>Minnesota, Rudi Perpich--who was an adviser to the Croatian government and
>in Croatia until 1993 is probably spinning in his grave on that one.  Of
>course the Clinton administration is claiming that the real assistance
>stopping the Serbians that the Clinton administration itself allowed made
>the difference after 1994.  That's not what Rudi said, and he was there...
>It was the surreptious Hungarian and German defiance of Clinton before 1994
>that made the difference--

How did defiance before 1994 make the difference after 1994?

and the Croatian capture of several Serbian arms
>warehouses in a daring midnight raid.  Gee, suddenly the Croatians could
>shoot back--big time, and suddenly it didn't look so easy for the Serbian
>bullies, better go pick on the still defenseless Bosnians instead.


>
>Besides that, there have been some other public situations.  Poland's loans
>forgiven by the U.S. and other Western nations--to the tune of adding $6
>billion to the U.S. taxpayer's deficit burden--but no Hungarian loans.

Might the fact of Poland's being larger economically and a greater
population of ethnic Poles in the U.S. have been factors in this decision?


 The
>French finding the "smoking gun documents" about who really started WWI
>(found in 1988) and making a public apology to Austria and Hungary, but the
>apology was not followed by England and Russia who were also incriminated by
>the French documents.

That is interesting. They had come up in one of the other threads of
discussion since I joined the List. What are these documents exactly, and
where can one get copies?

  You would have thought they all would have had the
>decency to figure out how much interest and principal on war debts was
>wrongfully collected, as well as the interest that Hungary might have earned
>if their money had been rightfully allowed to "stay home" for 70 years, and
>used that figure to at least offset some of the current Hungarian debt--if
>not all.  But it didn't happen.  Not even the French have done more than
>make a verbal apology.

The government in Hungary hasn't been pushing this issue, has it? What about
the other countries which formed part of the Central Powers? Couldn't this
also be used as an argument for return of some or all of the lands of
Greater Hungary? (Doesn't sound like a very likely proposition, though - too
disruptive to the status quo).

>
>Then there were all the trips the President made to East Central Europe.
>Haven't you noticed that Hungary was the _last_ East Central European nation
>he visited, and he spent the shortest time there?  Do you have any idea what
>East Central European American lobbyists went through to get him to spend a
>lousy twelve hours there?  We

Were you one of the lobbyists?

 were after that visit for almost two years.
>He only made it when Dole became Senate Majority Leader and Pataki governor
>of New York.  That's when his administration suddenly started being polite
>to us.  Did you know that a former senior adviser of Senator Dole--and still
>a close friend, is Laszlo Pasztor, the head of AMOSZ,

What is AMOSZ?

and a director of two
>national East Central European American coalitions.
>
>Yes, I know, AMOSZ, and even Mr. Pasztor do not always have a good
>reputation among all Hungarian Americans.

Why not?

  I've had my differences with him
>and them also from time to time, but Mr. Pasztor is a professional, and a
>real diplomat when it comes to the highest levels of the U.S. government and
>many embassies, and is treated with the utmost respect by them.  He does

<snip snip>

>Anyhow, the Republican Party Heritage Council, led in some key areas
>(California and New York, for instance) by Hungarian Americans, helped
>engineer the Republican Congressional takeover in 1994, and the single
>foremost driving reason was Clinton's treatment of East Central
>Europe--particularly Hungary and Bosnia.

Are you saying that the single greatest reason for the Republican takeover
was Clinton's treatment of Eastern Europe? I didn't get that impression from
the media. I thought it was more the dissatisfaction with the Democrtic
incumbents and the status quo, which was reflected in the "Contract with
America." (More domestic politics, in other words, and not foreign affairs,
although I think most people have been pretty disgusted with the way Clinton
handled the Serbs up until just recently).
>
>Another "for instance:"  Remember the grand opening of the Holocaust Museum?
>Do you remember that just before the visits of all the East Central European
>presidents/prime ministers to the U.S. for that, that John Majors had been
>here?  He got to spend over 2 hours in consultation with the President, just
>the first day, and to stay to an exclusive dinner etc., and a large part of
>the discussions were about East Central Europe.

You know that we still hear a lot about the "special relationship" between
the U.S. and Britain, even though in the case of Majors and Clinton I still
think their relationship may be partly a case of  "misery loves company."


  However, the East Central
>European presidents were herded through the President's oval office, one
>after another all in one day, in 15 minute increments--like a darned
>Hollywood "cattle call."  Fortunately the East Central European Americans
>correctly anticipated that, and had some private meetings with all the
>ambassadors and presidents before they met with President Clinton.  We

Again, were you one of the "we" or are you using the term loosely?

 got
>them to agree to focus on the Balkan situation and the refugees and all make
>exactly the same points in less than 10 minutes.  That's exactly then what
>happened and we were informed by several insiders that "it really shook up
>the White House to realize so many of the East Europeans had unified
>themselves on that issue and weren't budging."  They didn't like it, and
>then tried to play a game of "divide and conquer," to avoid having to comply
>with anything we wanted (outside of business investment).

That brings up the notion of some sort of an Eastern European Union. Despite
the probs with Hungarian minorities in Slovakia, Romania, and Vojvodina, it
may be that Eastern Europe would be better off in the long run allying with
the other countries in the region rather than seeking full membership in the
European Union, which I am afraid will result in a loss of sovereignty and
possibly of the region's economic advantage vis-a-vis the EC.
>
>The Hungarians were correctly pegged as one of the primary instigators of
>the  "Holocaust Memorial visit embarrassments," and especially targeted.
>Both Frank Kozorucs and Laszlo Pasztor can tell you of numerous incidents
>when they were invited to meet with the highest ranking State Department,
>NSC members, and even the President--separately and different things were
>promised to different groups, if we'd just be patient and supportive--and by
>the way would we persuade the other groups to go along with whatever
>conflicting strategy was being promoted this visit.  This practice finally
>stopped when both Frank and Laszlo flatly told the highest ranking people
>that they were well aware of what they were trying to pull, and that it
>wouldn't work because they (Frank and Laszlo) were members of two of the
>same  national committees and were making a point of checking with all the
>national and regional leaders to compare what Hungarians were being told
>after every White House visit.

Clinton is notorious for telling every person who meets with him what he
wants to hear and adopting the opinions of the last person he has talked to.
>
>Now can you imagine President Clinton or Prime Minister Majors pulling that
>kind of stuff on each other, or any Western European country--or even the
>Polish/Polish Americans?  Of course not.  But they have tried this on
>Hungarians, and a few others, but especially on Hungarians.  Trust me, the
>groups have been comparing notes on the ethnic treatment differences too,
>not just the differences for a single ethnicity's leaders.
>
>Hungarians are not treated with the same diplomatic respect as many other
>nations, unless we darned well insist on it and can back up our insistence
>with surprises like 1994.

Might part of the problem be that Hungarians in Hungary and abroad often do
*not* speak with united voices? Israel, for example, has historically
benefitted from the fact that up until just recently the Jewish groups in
the States and elsewhere have pretty much echoed the positions of the
Israeli government. The result is more influence on the U.S.'s policy. Maybe
Hungarians should learn to "sing from the same hymn book," as the saying goes.

<snip snip>

>They need to be reminded of the French documents, for instance, and the
>effect they should have on any residual mentalities related to the two world
>wars.  They need to be told wh we are aware of diplomatic differences in
>the treatment of officials that we are aware of these things and do not
>believe this in keeping with our U.S. national ideals of egalitarian
>respect.  They need to keep hearing about real, verifiable mistreatments of
>our minorities, and the strains of hundreds of thousands of refugees still
>in Hungary, etc., etc..  The letters and calls need to be polite, but firm,
>and they need to come from more than just a few people.

Don't you think a lot could be accomplished by increasing media awareness
and thus hopefully educating the American (and Canadian) public? I can't
help but think, as I said above, that a big part of the problem is ignorance
and indifference on the part of the American public, which is reflected in
Bill Clinton. After all, what reason does he have to be especially aware of
or concerned with Hungarian matters? And, frankly, I think a good part of
America's foreign policy is exemplified by the phrases "crisis management"
and "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." And it may be until there is a
major crisis, a massacre or something similar, that the government has its
resources devoted to major problem areas, and it just doesn't think Hungary
is a pressing concern. Foolish, but then they may have already blown chances
in Russia, with far more potentially disastrous consequences for us all.

>
>Thanks for reading and replying.
>
>Best regards,
>
>
>Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
>San Jose, CA, USA
>
Thank you for spending so much effort on your reply. Hope you will find my
questions stimulating. I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
>
>

Haliho,

Read this:
###########################################
US:Rumania-Hungary treaty before NATO
BUCHAREST, Feb. 13(UPI) -- U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke
said Tuesday Romania and Hungary should sign a good neighbor treaty as a
precondition to being admitted to NATO.
   "It is high time for countries in central Europe to resolve their bilateral
treaties and leave back all the historical legacies," Holbrooke told a press
conference at the U.S. ambassador's residence in Bucharest.
   Holbrooke, on a 12-hour stopover in the capital, met with Romanian President
Ion Iliescu and Foreign Minister Teodor Melescanu.
   The assistant secretary of state urged Romania and Hungary to "look to the
future," and stop being "obsessed to rectify an historical grievance."
   Relations between the two neighboring states have chilled since the fall of
Communism, with Hungary demanding a fair treatment of some 1,6 million ethnic
Hungarians living in Transylvania, northwestern Romania, which was once a
Hungarian province.
   Despite five years of talks, the two sides' stances remain frozen in part
because Romania refuses to accept a Council of Europe recommendation that would
grant ethnic groups the right to set up self- ruled enclaves.
   Melescanu, who also attended the press conference, admitted that Holbrooke
had put pressure on both nations to come to terms on the issue "as a vehicle to
speed up their admission to NATO."
   "We want a firm schedule of the negotiations, which could lead to the actual
signing of the treaty in March," said Melescanu shortly before meeting the
Hungarian Deputy Foreign Minister Ferencz Shomogy in Bucharest.
##################################

Richard Holbrooke has certainly got a lot of balls to say that we should forget
what happened and what is happening and sign the agreement, but he can say
these things because we are a weak lot, the Hungarians. He could care less
about the 1.6 million ethnic Hungarians. This is a total non-issue to Holbrooke
and the US. It's our own damn fault if they sign this treaty to allow the
Romanian government to carry on as usual because we're not vocal about it as we
should be and because some of us on this list have hang ups about associating
themselves with others this list because they disagree with the other persons
politics. Screw the damn politics for now and let's do something about this!!!
If the Czifra's, Szalai's, Durant's, Balogh's, Hormann's, Doepp's, Becker's,
Zoltani's, Gotthard's, Tournier's and the rest are able to write the amount we
do on these lists, then there should be no problem in us putting our boxing
gloves down for a spell and actually do something about this, rather than argue
about it, endlessly. If we don't, then it's over for our Hungarian brothers and
sisters. The US doesn't think they are important because we don't speak up as a
whole Hungarian community. Only some of us speak, but not really get heard
because we don't have the backing of our own people. So, how seriously is the
US or the world, for that matter, is going to take us?? We're a joke of a
community. No focus!!! No leadership!!! No organization!!! No aims!!! No
drive!!! No goals!!! No demands!!! No future!!! Is it because we (Hungary) has
been on the "losing side" or have gotten the wrong end the deal so many times
in the past that makes us indifferent, now?? I'd like to know.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Dear Mr. Hidas;

At 01:36 PM 2/16/96 -0400, you wrote:

>At 9:49 PM 2/15/96, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>>At 20:47 14/02/96 -0800, Celia Fa'bos-Becker wrote:
>>>Dear Eva;
>>>
>>>At 01:06 PM 2/14/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>>>There was a discussion about the sumerian link
>>>>a while back. It was far from proven, was
>>>>the conclusion, if I remember correctly.
>>>
>>>In Stephen Sisa's book that is the claim, he makes.
>>
>>I just got Sisa's book, *The Spirit of Hungary* and am in the process of
>>reading it now. Here is what he says about the proposed Hungarian-Sumerian
>>link:
>>
>>"The Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) theory was quasi sanctioned by the state from the
>>middle of the 19th. century to recent times. After World War II, however,
>>this concept was challenged by a new coalition of scholars and orientalists.
>>The Finno-Ugrian theory, they argue, is *based on linguistics alone,*
>>without support in anthropology, archeology or written records.
>
>Who are the members of this new coalition of "scholars"? No member of the
>Hungarian Academy of Scieces, the Historical Institute or professor in
>Budapest, Debrecen, Szeged etc denies the Finno-Ugric connection.
>
>>"The orientalists point, instead, to apparent evidence that the cradle of
>>the Magyars and their language lay not in the Ural region, but in an area of
>>*Central-Asia,* earlier known as the *Turanian Plain.* Now known as Soviet
>>Turkestan, this area stretches from the Caspian Sea eastward to Lake
>>Balchas. Ancient chronicles called this huge area *Scythia.*. . . .

Owen Lattimore suggested they came from there a few centuries BCE, but he
suggested they might have been elsewhere even earlier.  His knowledge, good
as it was, was still limited by the research/logistics problems of his day.
Badiny and the 4 other scholars cite archeological and other evidence for an
origin interestingly enough that is a wide region running from the Danube
Basin and the Balkans east to the Black Sea area and south into Turkey.
Again the book is _The Sumerian Wonder_, published in 1975--and the book
cites the presentation of this research to the Society of Sumerologists
headquartered at the Sorbonne, and the Society's acceptance of the research.
>
>Hungarians historians locate the proto-Hungarians between the Aral Sea and
>the Caspian. There is no evidence, anthropolgical, lingusitic,
>archiological to any of the above.
>
>>"Today, students of Far-Eastern history believe that the Magyars were
>>strongly exposed to *Sumerian culture* as well since proto-Sumerians too,
>>had inhabited the Turanian Plain until about 3000 B.C. This people then
>>migrated to Mesopotamia, where they built a brilliant civilization, whose
>>most important achievement was the invention of writing.
>
>Again, who are these students? Where is the evidence? proof? The
>Hungarians, that is the Finno-Ugrians could not write in 3000 B.C.
>>
>>"By 1950 B.C. the Sumerian empire was gone, but their *cunei form writings*
>>endured on the tablets they had used. Famous linguists of the 19th century,
>>including Henry C. Rawlinson, Jules Oppert, Eduard Sayous and Francois
>>Lenormant soon found that knowledge of the Ural-Altaic languages -
>>particularly Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian
>>writings. Cunei form writing was used by the Hungarians long before their
>>arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.
>
>Hungarians became familiar with the writing during their stay in Etelkoz.
>Their alphabet is similar to that of the Greeks. That process took place
>between the 6th and 9th centuries. The Hungarian language has a common
>grammatical structure with the languages of the Finno-Ugrian language
>families.
>
>
>>
>>There is another theory which Sisa goes into some detail about, and I find
>>it rather persuasive. He continues further on:
>>
>>"Highly interesting in the quest for the ancient Hungarian homeland have
>>been recent efforts to study the Magyar-Uygur connection. The Uygurs are a
>>people with a Caucasian appearance in the Xinjiang province of China. This
>>region still reflects its ancient role as a meeting place of Chinese
>>civilization and Central Asia's nomadic peoples. Here, members of a dozen
>>ethnic groups outnumber the nationally predominant Han Chinese. The largest
>>among them are the Uygurs, 7 million strong, who still hold fast to their
>>Turkic language.
>>
>>"The Uygurs inhabit the Tarim Basin and a chain of oases between the
>>forbidding Taklamakan and Gobi deserts. Traversing the region is a 4,000
>>mile trade route used by caravans traveling from China to the shores of the
>>Mediterranean. "Taklamakan" in the folklore of the Uygurs means "once you
>>get in, you can never get out.". . . .At the Uygurs' northern border
>>stretches the Dzungarian Basin, a steppe-like region where dry grain farming
>>is practiced.
>>
>>"The very name *Dzungaria* has a striking similarity to *Hungaria,* the
>>Latin word for Hungary, a word still used in poetic terms in Hungary today.
>>Northeast of Dzungaria lies the *Altai Mountain Range,* a name used by
>>linguists in defining the *Ural-Altaic* language group to which Magyar also
>>belongs. . . .
>>
>>"It was not until the 1980's that Hungarian orientalists could finally
>>overcome natural and political barriers to finally take a good look at the
>>Uygurs.
>
>The investigation was done by journalists and non-specialists. Ancient
>Hungarian art and music contain Turkic motives. This is due to the long
>co-habitation of Hungarian and Turkic tribes on the Russia steppes from the
>5th to the 9th centuries. Hungarians were also in contacts with Persian
>peoples as early as the 5th c. B.C.
>
>The whole Summerian connection is the pseudo-scientific invention of a
>certain emigre group of political extremism to boot.
>

Tell that to the Society of Sumerologists, the Sorbonne and the University
of  Montreal--two of Badiny'a co-researchers were non-Hungarians from those
latter institutions.  If Professor Tom Jones, University of Minnesota,  is
still alive he might also find some disagreements with that statement, as
this friend of the late Carl Blegen was the person who referred me to Owen
Lattimore and contributed his own personal knowledge that pretty well agrees
with Badiny.  Since you are in Montreal, you should be able to find some of
the appropriate persons to call and confront...  Let's see, according to the
back fly leaf, the co-researchers included, Dr. Mary B. Brady, University of
Montreal Faculty of Arts and Sciences, Department of Anthropology, and Dr.
Guy Enderlin, Practical School of High Studies, Sorbonne. Good luck!



>Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

>
Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Groups;

Here's an item about which some of you hopefully will not only be
interested, but might also be able to attend.

U.S. Secretary of Defense, William Perry will be speaking at the Sunnyvale
(California) Hilton Hotel, for a luncheon speech, 11:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.
Friday, Feb. 23.  The speech is co-sponsored by the World Forum of Silicon
Valley and the Commonwealth Club.  Reservations/tickets are $30 for members,
and $35 for non members.

To make reservations you can call The World Forum of Silicon Valley at
408-298-8342; fax. number 408-298-0832; e-mail: 

The last luncheon speech involving a high-ranking U.S. official on
international affairs, Madeleine Allbright, was only attended by about 125
people--providing ample opportunity for the 3 tables of East Central
European Americans and Chinese Americans (we all knew one another) to
dominate the question and answer session after her speech.  We did the same
thing again, at a dinner speech sponsored by the same organization for
William Perry, last  June.  The dinner was attended by nearly 300 people,
but we had four tables of "friends."

The topic of Secretary Perry's speech is Bosnia, but he is expected to touch
on other areas of East Central Europe, which I think we could expect to
include at least a mention of Hungary, since the U.S. now has troops there.

Sunnyvale is about 20 miles north of San Jose, 40 miles south of San
Francisco, and 45 miles southwest of Oakland.  (It's essentially a Silicon
Valley "suburb" of San Jose.)

Hope to see some of you all there, Friday!

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Eva Durant, commenting on my saying that 40 percent of the working-age
population is on some kind of government aid:
>
>strange, even the capitalist system in the pre-sixties
>managed that, when most women were not working.  The
>problem is that profits are not able to make it to
>the social distribution anymore...

        That idea of Eva's based on her belief that all 40 percent of these
people are mothers, looking after little toddlers. But that is not the case.
That is the first problem. The second problem is that some of these people
are not idle at all. As I tried to explain one can draw disability payments
and work part time; or even better, one can draw disability payment and work
full-time illegally in the black/grey economy. Third, women's income seems
to be needed nowadays, at least in the United States, because our demands
have gotten much higher.


>Will stopping benefits create new jobs?

Yes. Because the entrepreneurs will not have to pay such high benefits once
these payments will be smaller. Therefore they will be able to afford hiring
more people.

Eva Balogh

Eva Durant:

>First, the facts: I've never said it was paradise, and I've never
>said, that living standard were growing, as from the end of
>the seventies they were not.

        Of course, you didn't say it in so many words but the message, with
some exaggeration, was still the same.

>All I wanted to point out, that even in a system where there
>was a the terrible waste of burocracy etc, etc, some things
>were positive, and even better, than in a western country,
>even before the years of the loans there were good education,
>nurseries, libraries, cheap culture. Is this a fact or not?

        Oh, that is a fact. The only problem with these services was that
the country's economy didn't provide enough money for their maintenance.
They were subsidized from money borrowed from abroad--thus the incredible
indebtedness of the country. Sure, it would be very nice to have let's say a
sailboat or a house on the shore costing 2 million dollars--but if I don't
have the money to own either, or if I buy them on borrowed money which I am
unable to repay, then I am not really entitled to these goodies. I will have
to give them up or the bank will take them away from me. The same was true
about all those goodies the Kadar government was giving to the population:
they coudn't really afford them.

Eva Balogh

Dear John (and group);

At 03:37 PM 2/16/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Haliho,
>
>Read this:
>###########################################
>US:Rumania-Hungary treaty before NATO
>BUCHAREST, Feb. 13(UPI) -- U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke
>said Tuesday Romania and Hungary should sign a good neighbor treaty as a
>precondition to being admitted to NATO.
>   "It is high time for countries in central Europe to resolve their bilateral
>treaties and leave back all the historical legacies," Holbrooke told a press
>conference at the U.S. ambassador's residence in Bucharest.
>   Holbrooke, on a 12-hour stopover in the capital, met with Romanian Presiden
t
>Ion Iliescu and Foreign Minister Teodor Melescanu.
>   The assistant secretary of state urged Romania and Hungary to "look to the
>future," and stop being "obsessed to rectify an historical grievance."
>   Relations between the two neighboring states have chilled since the fall of
>Communism, with Hungary demanding a fair treatment of some 1,6 million ethnic
>Hungarians living in Transylvania, northwestern Romania, which was once a
>Hungarian province.
>   Despite five years of talks, the two sides' stances remain frozen in part
>because Romania refuses to accept a Council of Europe recommendation that woul
d
>grant ethnic groups the right to set up self- ruled enclaves.
>   Melescanu, who also attended the press conference, admitted that Holbrooke
>had put pressure on both nations to come to terms on the issue "as a vehicle t
o
>speed up their admission to NATO."
>   "We want a firm schedule of the negotiations, which could lead to the actua
l
>signing of the treaty in March," said Melescanu shortly before meeting the
>Hungarian Deputy Foreign Minister Ferencz Shomogy in Bucharest.
>##################################
>
>Richard Holbrooke has certainly got a lot of balls to say that we should forge
t
>what happened and what is happening and sign the agreement, but he can say
>these things because we are a weak lot, the Hungarians. He could care less
>about the 1.6 million ethnic Hungarians. This is a total non-issue to Holbrook
e
>and the US. It's our own damn fault if they sign this treaty to allow the
>Romanian government to carry on as usual because we're not vocal about it as w
e
>should be and because some of us on this list have hang ups about associating
>themselves with others this list because they disagree with the other persons
>politics. Screw the damn politics for now and let's do something about this!!!
>If the Czifra's, Szalai's, Durant's, Balogh's, Hormann's, Doepp's, Becker's,
>Zoltani's, Gotthard's, Tournier's and the rest are able to write the amount we
>do on these lists, then there should be no problem in us putting our boxing
>gloves down for a spell and actually do something about this, rather than argu
e
>about it, endlessly. If we don't, then it's over for our Hungarian brothers an
d
>sisters. The US doesn't think they are important because we don't speak up as 
a
>whole Hungarian community. Only some of us speak, but not really get heard
>because we don't have the backing of our own people. So, how seriously is the
>US or the world, for that matter, is going to take us?? We're a joke of a
>community. No focus!!! No leadership!!! No organization!!! No aims!!! No
>drive!!! No goals!!! No demands!!! No future!!! Is it because we (Hungary) has
>been on the "losing side" or have gotten the wrong end the deal so many times
>in the past that makes us indifferent, now?? I'd like to know.
>
>Udv.,
>Czifra Jancsi
>john_czifra @ shi.com
>
Why do you think I first posted this...

I am currently awaiting confirmation by the Hungarian ambassador's staff
that the German report is as bad as it appears.  If so, I fully intend to
use every connection I have to hang Mr. Clinton (who directed Mr. Holbrooke
to make these statements) at the polls this November.

Among other things, I have a sneaking suspicion some of my Mexican American
friends who are still disgruntled over Texas, California, the U.S.
southwest, not to mention the general discrimination that persists to this
day, are not going to be happy to hear "minorities should forget their past
grievances."   We can make a strong case that if Clinton and his staff can
condone mistreatment of minorities abroad when he thinks the CNN and ABC
film crews are either not watching or suitably intimidated, that considering
the concerns for immigration in many areas of the U.S. the Mexican Americans
might have reason to wonder how secure their own minority rights are.  It is
a legitimate question...  The history of the U.S. expropriation of Texas
especially is very similar to what was done to Hungary by Romania.  By the
way, I'm fluent enough in Spanish to literally write the appropriate
letters--and post them to the Spanish language, Mexican-American press in
the U.S., and I know where I can get all their addresses...


This just in as I am writing: Embassy confirms reports!  Holbrooke really
did make the statements!  Have it in writing from Embassy, signed by press
attache' Ervin Szucs.

Good News: Hungary isn't feeling particularly cooperative.  Will continue to
press minority issues in the bilateral treaty negotiations has also stated
that "it does not accept the Romanian view that were Hungary to be accepted
into NATO before Romania, that it would destabilize the region."

We aren't lost yet, folks, but I think Clinton may be...

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Barna answered my criticism of the Hungarian press's covering of the
Soros-Horn summit thus:

>I agree that the quality of reporting in many cases, or may be in most
>cases, is poor in the Hungarian media, but I don't think this explains the
>hostile tone of the "Magyar Narancs".  Somebody just told me, that the
>"Magyar Forum" also reported the event in a sarcastic manner.  So the
>meeting was ridiculed, ignored from left, right, centre.  A similar
>attitude can be observed against the World Federation of Hungarians. They
>are also being attacked from each directions. [BTW, some WFH leaders
>falsely interpret this as an indication that they are on the right track.]
>
>I believe the problem is caused by prejudice and generalization. The name
>Habsburg is enough to turn off the Magyar Narancs's interest, and the
>Magyar Forum is automatically against it, if Soros is there. This
>narrow-mindedness is not unique to the Hungarian media. There is evidence
>of it everywhere, even here in the Internet.

        Barna brings up a serious problem in Hungary: antagonism on the part
of  Hungarians living in Hungary toward fellow Hungarians living abroad. And
we may add something else: a general reluctance to learn or borrow from
others. A very interesting article appeared in the Szalon about three days
ago in which a successful Hungarian dentist in Germany describes a
conversation she had had with a dentist chief honcho who happened to be one
of the advisors on medical matters to the Antall government. She was trying
to explain the German system of health insurance to him but he interrupted
her and said: "we will solve this matter ourselves, the Hungarian way. We
don't copy anybody." Well, there is a saying in English about reinventing
the wheel and, of course, there is the Hungarian equivalent of it concerning
the Spanish wax. Both tell us that it is stupid not to save time and energy
by adopting others' successful methods. The same German-Hungarian dentist
was complaining that in Hungary there is no such thing as a "commercial
code," which makes life for Hungarian businessmen extremely difficult. I am
in the middle of reading an interesting article on the Czech Republic and lo
and behold, what do I read: "Even before he became prime minister, Klaus and
reform-minded liberals had enacted a commercial code (partly borrowed from
Germany but tailored to domestic institutions), a restitution process, and a
privatization law. The code set up a legal system so that contracts and
property rights, the necessary legal pre-conditions of a market economy,
could flourish." In Hungary there is still no commercial code and the
privatization law was enacted only very recently--six years after the
abandonment of the one-party system and the socialist economy.

        As for the media's attitude toward the Soros-Horn meeting, with
Barna's permission I will pass his letter on to my informant, also a
journalist. I will be curious what his reaction will be.

        Eva Balogh

At 03:37 PM 2/16/96 -0400, Janos Czifra wrote after quoting a description of
Richard Holbrooke's visit to Romania:

>Richard Holbrooke has certainly got a lot of balls to say that we should forge
t
>what happened and what is happening and sign the agreement, but he can say
>these things because we are a weak lot, the Hungarians. He could care less
>about the 1.6 million ethnic Hungarians. This is a total non-issue to Holbrook
e
>and the US.

        I must say that that wasn't my reading of the release. From the
description it seemed to me that Holbrooke was quite even-handed. (Actually
it would be very odd if he were anti-Hungarian, considering that he just got
married to Kati Marton at the American Embassy in Budapest!) He is simply
trying to move the talks from a total deadlock by urging the parties to find
some middle road.
        Eva Balogh

At 10:51 AM 2/16/96 -0800, Cecilia wrote, first quoting  Eva Durant, then
quoting me, and then quoting Eva Durant again:

Eva Durant:>>> >Not related, due to  the market economy...

Eva Balogh: >>> That is fascinating! Could you explain that a little more
fully? >>>They are not related?

Eva Durant: >>I remember south -American countries being the newest
>>growth miracles  in the not so distant past. I don't remember the
>>disappearance of poverty accompanying it.
>>The recent modest growth in US economy did not raise
>>average living standards, especially not the bottom third.

Then comes our economic expert, Cecilia:

>Heartily agreed!

        And a long story about poverty in Mexico. I am no economist but
there can be no rise in living standards without economic growth! So, you
can "heartily agree" to your heart's content, but unfortunately you are,
along with Ms. Durant, wrong! If there was economic growth in Mexico
somebody's living standards did go up--not necessarily the poor people's but
most likely the rich ones because Mexico is basically a corrupt country
where the bureaucrats and the capitalists get the fruits of economic growth
and not the population at large. But we are not talking about Mexico; we are
not talking about South America; we are talking about a fairly democratic
country in Central Europe. There, if there is sustained and steady economic
growth the population's living standards will go up--not just a few chosen
ones, but everybody's.

        And conversely, there is no way of raising living standards without
economic growth. Unless, of course, you do what Janos Kadar and his
comrades, headed by Mr. Janos Fekete, the head of the National Bank, did:
borrow money from those filthy foreign bankers and pump it into the economy.
Perfect Potemkin village is the result! Except that little Potemkin village
in the eighteenth-century was most likely built on Russian money. Our
Potemkin village, the size of a whole country, was financed in large measure
from foreign borrowed money. And this is what we are talking about.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Johanne;

At 04:42 PM 2/16/96 -0400, you wrote:

>At 12:58 15/02/96 -0800, Celia Fa'bos-Becker responded:
>
><snip snip> (borrowed from James Doepp)
>
>>First of all, I like the English people, mostly, it's _some_ of the darned
>>"patricians" to use Barbara Tuchman's description I have a problem with--as
>>well as some of the darned "patricians" in the U.S., and a few other
>>countries as well.
>
>Are you seriously saying Bill Clinton and John Majors are patricians? Or are
>you implying that it is the patricians behind the scenes who are actually
>calling the shots? That is what you seem to be saying below.

In Clinton's case he surrounds himself with both "patricians" wealthy
backgrounds, ivy league schools, no jobs after graduation except for
prestigious research institutes and being aides to politicians etc., and
"Hollywood types"--money and glamour.  Look at the majority of whom attends
the Hilton Head conferences.  In his Arkansas background, although he
personally was not born to wealth--he had some family connections who did
have money and status.  He had his connections to the old Southern
establishment here and there...  I never asked all the details from my
cousins, just asked enough for my own needs.

>  The problem is, when it's patricians in the U.S. and
>>England, they generally have a lot more effect on the rest of the world than
>>say those in Mexico or Indonesia--or even Russia.  They also claim to hold
>>higher standards of altruism and responsibility--ergo we should trust them
>>running huge corporations and governments.  It's the hypocrisy of those who
>>have the education, culture, freely given support and trust of and in their
>>countries to be better human beings and merit respect as real leaders but
>>behave like third world types and claim to be otherwise.
>>
>>The people I love and want to trust behave too often like a 600 pound
>>gorilla or bear and not an Atlas.
>
>I have an automatic problem believing in the good intentions of anyone who
>is seeking power over me or anyone else.

Agreed.

>>
>>Next item: fuzzifying the muddification.  I had to think about this, because
>>I still have to work with some people, and may have to put up with them
>>after November 1996.  I can't be effective if I say too much and lose access
>>to them.  So, I'm not going to name names, and I'll have to hope that the
>>following helps clarify the situation.
>>
>>I was approached in 1992, several months before the national convention by
>>
><snip snip>
>
>>So, at times I have spoken by telephone with several very top aides to the
>>President and Vice-president.  I have met with a couple of people in person
>>who over the past four years have become key advisers in the State
>>department.  I met with the interface to the White House on the Armed
>>Services Committee in the House of Representatives.
>>
>>Suffice to say, I constantly found myself confronting and trying to overcome
>>the same darned attitude, over and over again.  The best expression of it
>>came from the Armed Services committee interface: "you East Central
>>Europeans should forget about trying to get us to listen to you about
>>anything in East Central Europe, especially you Hungarians.  Don't you know
>>that most people around here still consider you responsible for starting
>>World War I and being allies of Hitler?  You can't be trusted to have your
>>own self defense or run yourselves."  Hungarians?--"quit complaining about
>>the treatment to your minorities--you did the same thing to them for
>>centuries.  You deserve what's happening now."   Also, "you're exaggerating
>>the problem."
>
>Speaking as an American citizen, (I'm a dual citizen, now, actually) I think
>I can say truthfully that my perception is closer to the opinion given by
>Sandor Lengyel in his earlier post. I really think most Americans are just
>plain ignorant of the countries of Eastern Europe, with the possible
>exception of Russia, Poland, and to some extent the former Czechoslovakia.
>Before Yugoslavia broke up, I don't believe most Americans knew that the
>country was a federation loosely held primarily by loyalty to General Tito,
>either.
>
>By the way, in the very little I ever heard about the Central Powers in WWI
>and the Axis in WWII, I don't think I ever heard anything about the
>Hungarians being on the wrong side, even though in WWI, of course, Austria
>was referred to as Austria-Hungary.

Oh the Hungarians have been accused of being allies time and again--far more
often than most people would imagine.  Just last year we corrected two
California newspapers on this subject.  Usually they get us confused with
Romania--but the Romanians deliberately help the confusion...

>In any case, I do think it is important that Hungarians not be left with too
>much of a complex about the possible perceptions of Westerners toward them
>as former enemies. Americans have such a limited sense of history in any
>case, that I believe most of them have forgotten which of the smaller
>countries were involved on what side anyway. After all, they have almost
>unreservedly embraced the Germans and the Japanese; it would be pretty
>hypocritical at the least to hold a grudge against the Hungarians.
>
>Although that guy was probably a minor little flunkey whose opinion counts
>for absolutely nothing anyway, it is surprising that he purported to know so
>much about Hungary and then was obviously ignorant (unless he was just
>jerking your chain) about the fact that Hungarians were far more generous
>and enlightened in their treatment of minorities than any other nation I can
>think of in Central or Eastern Europe.

Unfortunately he was not a little flunkey, but the seniormost aide to the
committee--where most of the work was done in this field--of the then
Chairman of the Armed Services Committe.  Since a similar statement was made
by the immediate assistant to one of the top members of the President's
National Security Council, I think it is still understandable why East
Central European Americans were concerned about these attitudes and spent a
lot of time trying to change them--despite the occasional rude attempted
brush-offs.
>>
>>Regarding the refugees pouring in from the Voivodina and Transylvania, the
>>classic had to be the response from a very high ranking State department
>>official: "well, that was a problem recently, but the rate has slowed and
>>the Romanians and Serbians assure us they're working on imf problems and
need."
>> Regarding Croatians and Bosnians,
>>it was even worse, "UN officials were siphoning off money, Slovenians were
>>charging huge bribes for anything to pass through their country, and
>>militias of all sorts were hijacking a lot of trucks to sustain their
>>soldiers."  In short, refugee aid anywhere in southeastern Europe was a
>>complete disaster.  Oh yes, we heard from several sources that "to avoid
>>jeopardizing the UN efforts to bring peace to the region, ABC and CNN were
>>both asked personally by the President not to show their film footage on
>>this situation."  Both network heads complied.  After this expensive, futile
>>tour, now neither network wants to spend much time in the region--except
>>when it is clear to them the top U.S. officials approve of their visits.
>>(That's from an insider at ABC.)
>
>Interesting, but more an example of Clinton's concern to restrict stories
>which reflect unfavorably on his administration's policies in general than
>an example of hostility to Hungary, it would seem.
>>
>>Now besides that, before 1994, there were the very public statements, as
>>well as some semi-private ones to the Hungarian and German ambassadors, made
>>to Hungary by both Prime Minister Majors and President Clinton warning them
>>not to aid the Croatians or else suffer sanctions.
>
>Wasn't there an embargo being enforced against all sides in the conflict by
>the West at that time?
>
>
Not that you'd know it.  I have a copy of a document showing, including the
naming of names, Serbian officials meeting with Chinese officials and
conducting all the financial transactions, arrangements for shipping etc. of
both a shipment for oil from China to Serbia--and another unnamed shipment
of stuff to be hidden under 3 flags.  All the negotiations and transactions
were conducted in London.  About a year later, in an unrelated incident,
John Majors had to publicly admit, on all the major television networks,
that a convoy of nine ships were allowed past three English and French
blockades and unloaded war materials at Kotor.  He also admitted this wasn't
the first time this had happened...

> Never mind the fact that
>>a heck of a lot of victims from Vukovar and Osijek were actually Hungarians.
>>It's ironic that now the Clinton administration is taking credit for a wise
>>decision to let the Hungarians and Germans help and thus stop the Serbians
>>at least in Croatia.
>
>Agreed, but that is no different than Clinton claiming credit for bringing
>peace to Northern Ireland. He has a tendency (that's putting it mildly) to
>make self-serving claims about a lot of things he really is not entitled to
>the credit for.
>
> I think my late friend, the former governor of
>>Minnesota, Rudi Perpich--who was an adviser to the Croatian government and
>>in Croatia until 1993 is probably spinning in his grave on that one.  Of
>>course the Clinton administration is claiming that the real assistance
>>stopping the Serbians that the Clinton administration itself allowed made
>>the difference after 1994.  That's not what Rudi said, and he was there...
>>It was the surreptious Hungarian and German defiance of Clinton before 1994
>>that made the difference--
>
>How did defiance before 1994 make the difference after 1994?

That's my point exactly.  The people Rudi was advising who took the
warehouses, and accepted support from Germany and Hungary stopped the
Serbians before 1994.  The Serbians themselves asked for a cease fire within
weeks after the taking of the warehouses.  Rudi conducted part of the
negotiations...

>
>and the Croatian capture of several Serbian arms
>>warehouses in a daring midnight raid.  Gee, suddenly the Croatians could
>>shoot back--big time, and suddenly it didn't look so easy for the Serbian
>>bullies, better go pick on the still defenseless Bosnians instead.
>
>
>>
>>Besides that, there have been some other public situations.  Poland's loans
>>forgiven by the U.S. and other Western nations--to the tune of adding $6
>>billion to the U.S. taxpayer's deficit burden--but no Hungarian loans.
>
>Might the fact of Poland's being larger economically and a greater
>population of ethnic Poles in the U.S. have been factors in this decision?
>

True, but should this have been the case?  Shouldn't the U.S. have then had
the decency to look at the issues of all the East Central European debts,
and review the situations/histories?
>
> The
>>French finding the "smoking gun documents" about who really started WWI
>>(found in 1988) and making a public apology to Austria and Hungary, but the
>>apology was not followed by England and Russia who were also incriminated by
>>the French documents.
>
>That is interesting. They had come up in one of the other threads of
>discussion since I joined the List. What are these documents exactly, and
>where can one get copies?

>From the French government, presumably.  The then French vice-consul of San
Francisco, Jacque Coquillat, who filled me in on the details (the local
newspapers only carried a miniscule item about Mitterand making a public
apology to both Austria and Hungary because of the new documents), provided
me with a copy of a second, later speech Mitterand made to the EC, and
others stating a commitment by France to invest in Hungary to help rebuild
to partly help redress previous wrongs or mistakes (I'll have to check the
exact word on that, the document was in French, and my French isn't quite as
fluent as my Spanish).  However the vice-consul said that the speech was
intended to reflect the commitment to redress previous wrongs, and that this
itself reflected the public apologies which had occurred earlier.

This was what the vice-consul told me happened.  He also said it was much
better covered in German and French newspapers and elsewhere in Europe, than
in England, Russia or the U.S.  In 1988, some government workers were
renovating an old government office building some place in Paris.  They
found hidden in either an old safe or desk documents that had been locked
away during World War I.  Included in the documents were telegrams written
by French government officials that clearly indicated they helped
arrange--and paid for--the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand.  Additional
telegrams showed that the French government also directed the Triple Entente
Forces to mobilize _first_ and received confirmation that this was indeed
done.  According to these items, for instance, the Russian land forces
mobilized and began heading toward Hungary a full 24 hours before Franz
Josef himself ordered Austro-Hungarian mobilization.  There were more items
indicating involvement in other assasination plots, other incidences of
sabotage, and showing that government officials throughout the Triple
Entente were largely acting together.

The vice-consul also said he expected the French would rewrite their own
history books to include this new information.  The problem with this all,
is the documents incriminated Russian and English government officials also,
but neither of the other former Entente members has apologized.  I guess we
shouldn't hold our breath, right?
>
>  You would have thought they all would have had the
>>decency to figure out how much interest and principal on war debts was
>>wrongfully collected, as well as the interest that Hungary might have earned
>>if their money had been rightfully allowed to "stay home" for 70 years, and
>>used that figure to at least offset some of the current Hungarian debt--if
>>not all.  But it didn't happen.  Not even the French have done more than
>>make a verbal apology.
>
>The government in Hungary hasn't been pushing this issue, has it? What about
>the other countries which formed part of the Central Powers? Couldn't this
>also be used as an argument for return of some or all of the lands of
>Greater Hungary? (Doesn't sound like a very likely proposition, though - too
>disruptive to the status quo).
>

How true.  It is barely possible if we could get the French documents
translated into English and made widely public, we might have a chance at a
least some monetary restitution and some greater insistence on protection of
our minorities, but even that is no sure thing.  I did suggest the members
of the Hungarian Lobby in the DC area try to get copies of these items
through the French embassy, but haven't heard of anyone trying to do this.
I repeat, though, the vice-consul here, said go to the embassy, first.  He
said they had the best connections back into France for this kind of thing.

>>
>>Then there were all the trips the President made to East Central Europe.
>>Haven't you noticed that Hungary was the _last_ East Central European nation
>>he visited, and he spent the shortest time there?  Do you have any idea what
>>East Central European American lobbyists went through to get him to spend a
>>lousy twelve hours there?  We
>
>Were you one of the lobbyists?

Yes, volunteer, part-time, at my own expense--that's how we do it.  Some
ethnicities have offices, but funds are stretched.  Most of the DC area
office workers get "honorariums" at best, and are volunteers at worst.  The
Poles and Ukranians do a little better than Hungarians.
>
> were after that visit for almost two years.
>>He only made it when Dole became Senate Majority Leader and Pataki governor
>>of New York.  That's when his administration suddenly started being polite
>>to us.  Did you know that a former senior adviser of Senator Dole--and still
>>a close friend, is Laszlo Pasztor, the head of AMOSZ,
>
>What is AMOSZ?
>A
>and a director of two
>>national East Central European American coalitions.
>>
>>Yes, I know, AMOSZ, and even Mr. Pasztor do not always have a good
>>reputation among all Hungarian Americans.
>
>Why not?
>
>  I've had my differences with him
>>and them also from time to time, but Mr. Pasztor is a professional, and a
>>real diplomat when it comes to the highest levels of the U.S. government and
>>many embassies, and is treated with the utmost respect by them.  He does
>
><snip snip>
>
>>Anyhow, the Republican Party Heritage Council, led in some key areas
>>(California and New York, for instance) by Hungarian Americans, helped
>>engineer the Republican Congressional takeover in 1994, and the single
>>foremost driving reason was Clinton's treatment of East Central
>>Europe--particularly Hungary and Bosnia.
>
>Are you saying that the single greatest reason for the Republican takeover
>was Clinton's treatment of Eastern Europe? I didn't get that impression from
>the media. I thought it was more the dissatisfaction with the Democrtic
>incumbents and the status quo, which was reflected in the "Contract with
>America." (More domestic politics, in other words, and not foreign affairs,
>although I think most people have been pretty disgusted with the way Clinton
>handled the Serbs up until just recently).
>>
>>Another "for instance:"  Remember the grand opening of the Holocaust Museum?
>>Do you remember that just before the visits of all the East Central European
>>presidents/prime ministers to the U.S. for that, that John Majors had been
>>here?  He got to spend over 2 hours in consultation with the President, just
>>the first day, and to stay to an exclusive dinner etc., and a large part of
>>the discussions were about East Central Europe.
>
>You know that we still hear a lot about the "special relationship" between
>the U.S. and Britain, even though in the case of Majors and Clinton I still
>think their relationship may be partly a case of  "misery loves company."
>
>
>  However, the East Central
>>European presidents were herded through the President's oval office, one
>>after another all in one day, in 15 minute increments--like a darned
>>Hollywood "cattle call."  Fortunately the East Central European Americans
>>correctly anticipated that, and had some private meetings with all the
>>ambassadors and presidents before they met with President Clinton.  We
>
>Again, were you one of the "we" or are you using the term loosely?
>
> got
>>them to agree to focus on the Balkan situation and the refugees and all make
>>exactly the same points in less than 10 minutes.  That's exactly then what
>>happened and we were informed by several insiders that "it really shook up
>>the White House to realize so many of the East Europeans had unified
>>themselves on that issue and weren't budging."  They didn't like it, and
>>then tried to play a game of "divide and conquer," to avoid having to comply
>>with anything we wanted (outside of business investment).
>
>That brings up the notion of some sort of an Eastern European Union. Despite
>the probs with Hungarian minorities in Slovakia, Romania, and Vojvodina, it
>may be that Eastern Europe would be better off in the long run allying with
>the other countries in the region rather than seeking full membership in the
>European Union, which I am afraid will result in a loss of sovereignty and
>possibly of the region's economic advantage vis-a-vis the EC.
>>
>>The Hungarians were correctly pegged as one of the primary instigators of
>>the  "Holocaust Memorial visit embarrassments," and especially targeted.
>>Both Frank Kozorucs and Laszlo Pasztor can tell you of numerous incidents
>>when they were invited to meet with the highest ranking State Department,
>>NSC members, and even the President--separately and different things were
>>promised to different groups, if we'd just be patient and supportive--and by
>>the way would we persuade the other groups to go along with whatever
>>conflicting strategy was being promoted this visit.  This practice finally
>>stopped when both Frank and Laszlo flatly told the highest ranking people
>>that they were well aware of what they were trying to pull, and that it
>>wouldn't work because they (Frank and Laszlo) were members of two of the
>>same  national committees and were making a point of checking with all the
>>national and regional leaders to compare what Hungarians were being told
>>after every White House visit.
>
>Clinton is notorious for telling every person who meets with him what he
>wants to hear and adopting the opinions of the last person he has talked to.
>>
>>Now can you imagine President Clinton or Prime Minister Majors pulling that
>>kind of stuff on each other, or any Western European country--or even the
>>Polish/Polish Americans?  Of course not.  But they have tried this on
>>Hungarians, and a few others, but especially on Hungarians.  Trust me, the
>>groups have been comparing notes on the ethnic treatment differences too,
>>not just the differences for a single ethnicity's leaders.
>>
>>Hungarians are not treated with the same diplomatic respect as many other
>>nations, unless we darned well insist on it and can back up our insistence
>>with surprises like 1994.
>
>Might part of the problem be that Hungarians in Hungary and abroad often do
>*not* speak with united voices? Israel, for example, has historically
>benefitted from the fact that up until just recently the Jewish groups in
>the States and elsewhere have pretty much echoed the positions of the
>Israeli government. The result is more influence on the U.S.'s policy. Maybe
>Hungarians should learn to "sing from the same hymn book," as the saying goes.
>
><snip snip>
>
>>They need to be reminded of the French documents, for instance, and the
>>effect they should have on any residual mentalities related to the two world
>>wars.  They need to be told wh we are aware of diplomatic differences in
>>the treatment of officials that we are aware of these things and do not
>>believe this in keeping with our U.S. national ideals of egalitarian
>>respect.  They need to keep hearing about real, verifiable mistreatments of
>>our minorities, and the strains of hundreds of thousands of refugees still
>>in Hungary, etc., etc..  The letters and calls need to be polite, but firm,
>>and they need to come from more than just a few people.
>
>Don't you think a lot could be accomplished by increasing media awareness
>and thus hopefully educating the American (and Canadian) public? I can't
>help but think, as I said above, that a big part of the problem is ignorance
>and indifference on the part of the American public, which is reflected in
>Bill Clinton. After all, what reason does he have to be especially aware of
>or concerned with Hungarian matters? And, frankly, I think a good part of
>America's foreign policy is exemplified by the phrases "crisis management"
>and "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." And it may be until there is a
>major crisis, a massacre or something similar, that the government has its
>resources devoted to major problem areas, and it just doesn't think Hungary
>is a pressing concern. Foolish, but then they may have already blown chances
>in Russia, with far more potentially disastrous consequences for us all.
>
>>
>>Thanks for reading and replying.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>
>>Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
>>San Jose, CA, USA
>>
>Thank you for spending so much effort on your reply. Hope you will find my
>questions stimulating. I look forward to hearing from you.
>
>Yours,
>
>Johanne
>
>Johanne L. Tournier
>e-mail - 
>>
>>
>
>
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Johanne;

Sorry for the two part response.  My computer is apparently acting up again.

Ok, you asked about "AMOSZ."

The acronym stands for Amerikai MagyarOrszag Szovetseg(spelling?)

It's an old organization that's been regrouped several times due to recovery
from infighting.  I haven't been involved in that stuff--after the
Democratic Party in the 57th district, I didn't need any more... ;-)

Sometimes Laszlo has been the lightning rod, sometimes the victim of
unwarranted attacks (try to discredit the effective, etc.) and sometimes
after enough garbage he's been human enough to get more involved than he
should have been in the "back and forth junk."  He's made a few mistakes,
however, he tries to learn from his mistakes, and as I said before doesn't
let the internal stuff affect his work with Congress and the Administration.
He's been invited to numerous meetings with at least 5 U.S.
Presidents--Democrat, as well as Republican.  What's really frustrating to
those who deal with AMOSZ is not all the members are even as good as Laszlo.
Some are good, very good, some, well, there's no way to avoid saying it.
They can and do embarrass the others from time to time, and are responsible
for a lot of what exists of a sometimes negative image among the Hungarian
American community.

Like many other things, it is a volunteer membership organization.  There
isn't much of a screening process on members, and once they're in, it's
darned hard to discourage them without a big fight, which also creates
negative images.  All groups have extremists, though, and some can be pretty
hateful, while I do get frustrated with some of the groups, I try to just
focus on the good, and work most with the better folks.  If the membership
of a group overall gets too bad, I leave, and don't work with that group.
I've left a couple of groups in 25 years of activism when they deteriorated,
and I'm darned glad I did.

Let's put it this way, if you think the "religious
fundamentalists/"pro-lifers are a bad element in the Republicans, consider
this.  In 1972 the beleagured moderate, rational democrats trying to run
reasonable campaigns were contending with: the hippies (legalize everything
that feels good, including marijuana, cocaine, prostitution, etc.), Lyndon
Larouche (yes, he was a Democrat at the time) and both pro-choicers and
pro-lifers--all in the same party--and all yelling and screaming that their
issues should have the biggest priorities in the campaigns.  And if they
couldn't get us on the phone, well then they'd just come right into the
offices and yell in person.  At one point in the McGovern "home"
headquarters in the last three months of the campaign, a group of my
coworkers were buying a case of "Excedrin," every two-three weeks.   Myself,
I finally brought in earplugs.  Yet, to this day, we all still mostly vote
for Republicans or Democrats every two years...

I'm sure there are others in this group that will be more than happy to give
you a lot of gory history of any or all the Hungarian American groups that
have ever existed, should we all really want to read it.  Myself, no thanks.

Hope this helps.

Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Re: what was responsible for the Republican vote in 1994.  True, the
American people expressed dissatisfaction with the then Congress in opinion
polls, etc., but they did not mobilize in most of the states to select
candidates.  Most Americans are also not members of politically active
volunteer membership organizations and bother with helping candidates run
for office.  All of the candidate selection, all of the organization of
volunteers, etc. is done by groups who feel the strongest about any given
issue.  In 1994, Hungarians worked with, and sometimes led volunteer groups
who were heavily involved in the behind the scenes process.  Their attitudes
and determination had a lot to do with the ultimate results.  By the time
the typical voter expresses his opinion in the voting booth, even in the
primaries of 3/4 the states, it's a done deal for one candidate of each
major party.  After that, the voter has a simple choice of one of two in
November.  You'd be surprised how many Hungarian Americans worked closely
with major candidates in many states, and the effect of the Republican Party
Heritage council--at least 86,000 volunteers nationwide that can be called
up.  There's lots of other things 86,000 people can do to get prioritization
and interest in their issues--and they do them.

As a quick example of how the system really works, Tom Campbell jumped into
the race for a Congressional seat in a district in which he didn't even
live, just with the encouragement of one VC (venture capitalist) in Palo
Alto arranging a commitment of $1 million for him to run.  Even the
Republican Party Central Committee which is not elected from the general
party membership, but does represent at least a few more people, was left to
just follow a fait-accompli.  Tom Campbell is now a Congressman...

Yes, a few lead the many, even here, even here.  The biggest difference is
the few can _choose_ to lead and it may not be the same few who have the
biggest gripe and determination from one election to the next.  Special
interests do vie with one another.

Finally, on the subject of more education needed for our politicians.  True,
true.  But we have often found that without substantial other pressures,
they don't have to read or listen to the educational materials if they don't
want to do so.  It takes both.

As for unity of Jewish Americans, Polish Americans, etc..  All they
do--according to their leaders, is present a better image of unity to
Congress, etc..  In reality, they're no more unified than we are.  I've
heard and seen first hand situations no better than what goes on among the
Hungarian Americans.  And this network group is always civilized and polite
compared to the "mainlander" Chinese frequented Chinese groups.  Even on a
"bad" day, this group is better than their best.  And you don't want to
begin to learn about the fights between the mainlanders and the Taiwanese
Americans, or the differences (here it's a bit more civilized) between the
TA's and Hong Kong Chinese Americans, Singapore Chinese Americans,
Vietnamese Chinese Americans, etc..  Hungarians are almost all perfect
gentlemen and ladies compared to the shenanigans you can daily read in the
Chinese press for their political organizations.  For example, is there any
recent incident in the Hungarian parliament of members of parliament taking
telephones and chairs and trying to beat each other up with them--and having
to have the riot police called?

The size problem for Hungarians I'll buy, but not so much unification,
except in the occasional presentation of a public image.

Have I missed anything substantial at this point?  I got to get a new
controller board installed soon!

Sincerely and respectfully,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA







N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

>>Nobody had a patent on gross military budgets.  All military budgets are
gross.
>>
>>Joe Szalai

At 01:34 PM 2/16/96 -0500, Doug Hormann wrote:

>I'm certainly hallucinating, but do Uncle Joe and I agree on something?
>
>
>Doug Hormann

No need to become incontinent, Doug.  Besides, the number of times you and I
will agree, you'll be able to count on one finger.  That is, if you're not
using it already, to tally your IQ score.

Joe Szalai

At 12:08 PM 2/16/96 -0500, Doug Hormann wrote:

>        When you come out of the fog of religious extasy that you've
>encased yourself in (socialists are in my view sort of like religious
>zealots in their dream of a nirvana like heaven on earth and belief in the
>godlike pronouncements of Marx, Lenin et al) you might actually read some
>of the posts that have questioned socialism as a viable socio-economic
>system.

In a previous post, when I mentioned that capitalism has a symbiotic need
for waste, I should have mentioned that that need included the intellectual
sphere as well.

What?  Did nobody thank you for your contribution?

Joe Szalai

At 05:36 PM 2/16/96 -0500, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

>The topic of Secretary Perry's speech is Bosnia, but he is expected to
>touch on other areas of East Central Europe, which I think we could expect
>to include at least a mention of Hungary, since the U.S. now has troops >there
.

Oh yes!  At least a mention!  Only $35 to hear the Secretary of Defense
mention Hungary.  It's an election year special!

Cecilia, I hope the Hungarian attendees will see themselves as networking
and not groveling.

Joe Szalai