Marc H. asks:

>Joe, your last name doesn't happen to be Mcarthey, does it?...marc<;)

Marc,
at least learn how to spell the name before trying to associate me with it.

Joe

George writing to :

> You might have a hard time to believe that minorities would be hated
> so much for no reason at all in Hungary, but the facts are that Gypsies,
> Jews, Slovaks, Romans or Svabs were discriminated against in this century.

George,
I think you make a lot more sense when commenting on economics than on
social issues.  For I don't think it makes sense to mention anti-semitism
in one breath with problems with the ethnics of neighboring countries.
Then you really blow it with bringing in the Svabs (Schwabians) into the
picture.  The question of Gypsies is a problem in itself and we covered
that too many times already.

> True, there were outside influences (commmunism, fascism...etc.) but there
> was no widespread popular resistance against deportations, forced relocations

This you'd have to explain what you mean.  Which deportations and forced
relocations?  I can think of a couple.

> My theory is that the "low national self-esteem" of Hungarians never permitte
d
> the nation to accept the concept of "being different". Imredy, Szalasi or
> Antall (yes Antall) understood that "playing the card of nationalism"

I think you just about disqualified yourself from being taken seriously
when you put Antall together with the other two.

> (but dangerous) political investment.  These governments forgot that
> Bem, Petofi, Radnoti, Vujicsics or Zoran were/are all minorities..

No, they did not.  My family back in Hungary is only 1/4 Hungarian but I
never heard of them that they were forgotten.  Zoran seems to be doing
just fine, too, judging from his appearances on Hungarian TV.
After all, Hungarianness was never defined by blood but by loyalty.
>
> Do you think that General Bem could get a 'job' in today's Hungarian
> army ? (He was Polish and barely spoke Hungarian.) He probably would
> be arrested and send back to Poland ...  Times have changed, I think we were
> more open-minded in the last century...

Bem would definitely do fine today, just as then, because there was no
doubt about where his loyalties were.  Besides, Poles were historically
friendly with Hungarians.  ("Polak, Wegier dwa bratanki, i do szably, i
do szklanki", as they used to say.)

Joe

In article >,  > wrote:
>Subject: Re: Re.: Antisemitism
>From: Gabor Barsai, 
>Date: 24 Oct 1994 17:19:54 GMT
>In article > Gabor Barsai,
 writes:
>>Well, I'm afraid George and Imi are right. Let's all generalize, why
>>think when
>>ignorance is instantaneous? All Hungarians are anti-everything and
>>anything
>>living or that has lived or will live, right? So we can proudly say
>>without
>>further consequences:
>>
>>All Germans are nazis.
>>All Russians are commies.
>>All Slovaks are hicks.
>>All Americans are uncivilized rednecks.
>>...etc.
>
>
>i don't know about george, but i certainly reject the insinuation that
>we believe the garbage above. if you were to look back at my postings
>you will note that i refrain from universal statements, restrict
>myself to general statements and have cited examples of the many
>exceptions to the general rule.

Yes for example:
>>From  Mon Oct 24 23:37:00 EDT 1994
>>Article: 2973 of bit.listserv.hungary
>>From:  (IMRE BOKOR)
>>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
>>Subject: Re: Anti-semitism
>>Date: 23 Oct 1994 20:43:46 GMT
>>Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia
>>
>>his/her jewish heritage and began to pay more attention to "innocent
>>comments'. each of them has said to me that, yes, anti-semitism is still
>>alive in hungary even if it is not as overt and virulent as it has been
>>in the earlier half of this century.
>>
>>hungarian history is replete with anti-semitism --- even if it has only
>>been called that for about 100 years. there have also been significant
>>movements against it. what makes hungarian society as such anti-semitic
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>is the same thing as makes it anti-gypsy, namely a general prevalence
>>of such bigotted attitudes, often directed at phantom caricatures, but
>>nevertheless prevalent. one good indicator of how welcome a minority is
>>in a larger society is the personal experience of the members of that
>>minority. welcome minorities are usually thankful --- and relieved if
>>the welcome in in contrast to prior experience --- and do not have an
>>incentive to hide from a child his/her belonging to such a minority.
>>
>>d.a.
>>
>>:                                                             Matt

What I underlined (underscored, whatever) is not very universal statement, is
it? I inserted the rest so you wouldn't complain "it's out of text". Obviously,
some of what ya write is unfortunately true. But some of what you write is just
plain old BS.

>i don't know where you received your logical or mathematical training,
>but -- on the basis of your posting -- it seems to be patently
>inadequate.

I got it from Inert State University, from Prof. I.M. Boring. Where did you get
yours? Anyway, thanks for your compliment. I guess since you don't use upper
case (capital) letters, your logic is better than mine.

>i hope you will also not dispute that hitler enjoyed substantial support
>in the german population until at least after the battle of stalingrad.

Sure. But what's it got to do w/ Anti-semitism in HU? Or are you leading up to
the point that Horthy enjoyed substantial support in regards to deportation?

>so it is with anti-semitism in hungary (and elsewhere). it is probably
>nowhere a universal phenomenon, but it is more or less prevalent in
>very many societies, and alarmingly so in countries like hungary, poland,
>the ukraine, germany, slovakia to name but a few.

Oh, so it's worse than in the U.S.?

>that is not to say that the anti-semitic attitudes lead everywhere to
>physical assault or lynchings, or that they are based on unpleasant
>experience with flesh-and-blood jews. but there are in many societies
>attitudes, values and tastes which are shared by the society at large.
>for example, i would say that for most hungarians, if it has no meat,
>it is not a meal. similarly, as the survey results show, there is a
>negative attitude to jews in hungary. that is a anti-semitism, albeit
>of a mild form. unfortunately it is not only a question of such abstract
>anti-semitism, for these attitudes do have material consequences, and
>the decreasing inhibition to give vent to anti-semitic feelings is a
>development which should be of concern to any enlightened person. that
>is not to say that anti-gypsy racialism, or anti-turkish racialism in
>germany, anti-arab in france, anti-"paki" in england are any less
>imprtant or significant than anti-semitism. they are different aspects
>of the same ugly side of today's europe.

Finally, some sense out of you. Although I still doubt there is a negative
attitude, in general, towards jews in HU today, from my own experience,
obviously. Another quite obvious fact is that it is, usually, not enjoyable to
be a minority (of any type), anywhere. (Whether it's being a Palestinian in
Israel, or Hungarian in Romania, or a Jew in Hungary). Being a minority of any
type means not having the same customs, culture,...etc., you are different,
which can make your life miserable with the majority. From what I know, I
believe Hungary and Hungarians, for the most part, today are not against
non-Hungarians or minorities living in the country. (My experiences start from
the '70s). Sure, I know your gonna tell me to look at the hix.moka jokes. I
guess I can't defend that, only my experience with Hungarian life, which is
that it is not an aggressive society, mentally or physically.

Gabor

Subject: Re: Re.: Antisemitism
From: Gabor Barsai, 
Date: 24 Oct 1994 17:19:54 GMT
In article > Gabor Barsai,
 writes:
>Well, I'm afraid George and Imi are right. Let's all generalize, why
think when
>ignorance is instantaneous? All Hungarians are anti-everything and
anything
>living or that has lived or will live, right? So we can proudly say
without
>further consequences:
>
>All Germans are nazis.
>All Russians are commies.
>All Slovaks are hicks.
>All Americans are uncivilized rednecks.
>...etc.


i don't know about george, but i certainly reject the insinuation that
we believe the garbage above. if you were to look back at my postings
you will note that i refrain from universal statements, restrict
myself to general statements and have cited examples of the many
exceptions to the general rule.

i don't know where you received your logical or mathematical training,
but -- on the basis of your posting -- it seems to be patently
inadequate. i hope you will not find it contentious when i say that
hungarians consume more paprika per head than americans. that does not
mean or infer that all hungarians consume volumes of red-lead or that no
americans do so. similarly, hungarians wera more wintercoats than
australians, which does not mean that no australians sport winter coats.

i hope you will also not dispute that hitler enjoyed substantial support
in the german population until at least after the battle of stalingrad.

so it is with anti-semitism in hungary (and elsewhere). it is probably
nowhere a universal phenomenon, but it is more or less prevalent in
very many societies, and alarmingly so in countries like hungary, poland,
the ukraine, germany, slovakia to name but a few.

that is not to say that the anti-semitic attitudes lead everywhere to
physical assault or lynchings, or that they are based on unpleasant
experience with flesh-and-blood jews. but there are in many societies
attitudes, values and tastes which are shared by the society at large.
for example, i would say that for most hungarians, if it has no meat,
it is not a meal. similarly, as the survey results show, there is a
negative attitude to jews in hungary. that is a anti-semitism, albeit
of a mild form. unfortunately it is not only a question of such abstract
anti-semitism, for these attitudes do have material consequences, and
the decreasing inhibition to give vent to anti-semitic feelings is a
development which should be of concern to any enlightened person. that
is not to say that anti-gypsy racialism, or anti-turkish racialism in
germany, anti-arab in france, anti-"paki" in england are any less
imprtant or significant than anti-semitism. they are different aspects
of the same ugly side of today's europe.


>Yeah, just kill us all, and you won't have to worry about Hungarians
doing
>nefarious deeds anymore, against anyone. I wonder why the great powers
ever
>left such a country full of sin on the map after WWI? It would've been
easier
>to carve up the whole place, and Hungarians would really be paying for
their
>past and future and present sins against the whole world. Yup, we're
just a
>bunch of losers, who hate everybody. Nothin' better to do. Go ahead,
shoot me
>and make my day. So I guess I'm at the bottom of the bottom league for
being a
>Hungarian, and liking it. I think I'll just crawl back into my
formaldehide
>(sp?).
>
>Sorry Jeliko, but since your a Hun, you can't be right. All you can do
is face
>up to the sad reality, and admit your sins, and hope you will not be
born a Hun
>in your next life.
>
>Yeah, right.
>
>Not much to cheer about, since I'm an admitted Hun. :-((((((((((((((((
>
>Gabor

d.a.

Subject: Re: Anti-semitism
From: corvin
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 22:09:00 PDT
In article > ,  writes:


>I suggest removing them for a while and tune in especially to the
>obnoxious posts of a guy who likes to use the word "racialist" a lot for
>what I think must mean "racist" around here.
>                                                          Matt

since i have used the word "racialist" i presume i must be one of the
prime
suspects ".

i would like to point out that i live in a country where english and not
american is still the official language, and it is certainly the language
i learnt. the english word for what americans call "racism" is
"racialism".
i see no reaon for me to discontinue to use the english language rather
than the american one.

as for the obnoxiousness of the postings i agree. i too find racialism
obnoxious. it is very disheartening to see the re-emergence of racialism
in so much of europe.

d.a.

Subject: Re: Anti-semitism
From: JELIKO, 
Date: 24 Oct 1994 14:11:39 GMT
In article > JELIKO, 
writes:
>Imi Bokor writes:
>
>> the full quote from my previous posting is:
>
>> ">I think it is a common one everyone would know about
>> >or own.  My impression from the few pages I read was that religous
>> tension
>> >was minor.
>
>> anti-semitism is not so much a case of religious intolreance (although
>> that is part of its origin) as a form of racialism. its targets are not
>> only those who ascribe to judaism as a religion but just as much
>> secular jews, even people who disclaim any "jewishness" but are of
>> jewish background.
>
>> if you want references, just look up any set of archives on the jewish
>> laws in hungary in the 30's and 40's for a start."
>
>
>> as anyone who has a rudimentary grasp of the english language and
>> logic will surely realise, the reference to the laws of the 1930's and
>> 1940's was to the fact that anti-semitism is not a question of
hostility
>> to a different religion, for it applied and applies to people who share
>> a religion or have none, but are of "jewish background".
>
>
>> does that help?
>
>No, it does not. I think it is incorrect to claim that the definition of
>"Jewishness" today can be based on stupid and discrimantory laws passed
in
>the 30s and 40s. The governemnt that passed those laws, as often pointed
>out on this net (including by you) can not be called a democratic and
>representative of the  great majority of the Hungarians.


i would have thought that you would have noticed by now that i manage to
speak quite well for myself and while i am grateful for your unsolicited
assistance, i really do not need you to put words into my mouth.

i have repeatedly made the point that there seems to have been
overwhelming
support for the anti-semitic and anti-gypsy laws and activities in
hungary.
i would claim that whatever its democratic credentials, the governements
of the 1930's and 1940's had the majority of the hungarian population's
support in its belligerence towards szlovakis, yugoslavia, rumania,
the ussr, jews and gypsies. the fact that there was all but no partisan
activity, with the exception of some communist and socialist groups during
wwii speaks more than the most lyric eulogies of the few martyrs and the
crocodile tears shed for the unfortunate victims.


>I presume that
>your definition based on the above of "Jewish background" means those
who
>were of Jewish religion several generation in the past.

the problem with presumption is that it is not reliable enough. i meant
by "jewish background" meant those whose ancestry included jews.

as far as i know, anyone whose mother is jewish is, by jewish custom,
automatically jewish. anyone who converts to judaism is automatically
jewish by jewish custom, with the same rights, privileges, duties
and status as anyone jewish by birth. being jewish does not require any
religious affiliation, at least not by jewish custom and certainly not
by judaic law. in fact "once a jew. always a jew". a jew who takes on
another religion is still a jew.

as far as non-jewish appraisal of what "jewish" means, for many
"jewish" refers simply to a religious affiliation. others,differentiate
bewteen judaism as the religion of the jewish folk and the jewish
folk itself. in the racial laws of jewish extraction meant having
at least one parent, or grandparent or great-grandparent who was
at some time jewish. this varied from one country to another.

>Thus, your definition of "Jewish background" is in fact based on
religion.

i was not discussing what *i* meant by "jewish background". i was
re-stating what the legal measures said. i distinguish between the
religion and the people, just as while most greeks are greek orthodox,
not every greek is, and it is not necessary to be greek orthodox to be
greek. the same applies to being armenian and armenian orthodox, ukranian
and ukranian orthodox, english and anglican, etc.

>In the absence of that how would you attempt to claim that somebody is
>"Jewish background", I hope you are not implying that there are other
>racial differences between Jews and other people.

as far as i have been told, there is only one human race. there is a large
variety of cultural and physical differences between people throughout
the world, but to me at least --- and i confess to belonging to a
minority, mea culpa --- all are equal. i do not believe that equality
is the same thing as sameness.

>If you do not know that a
>person is of Jewish religion or a descendant of people who practiced
Jewish
>religion (probably needs plural for exact defintion) IMHO you could not
>define a person as "Jewish".

i have not chosen to define anybody or anything. definitions
are always problematical. for example, try to define "yellow".

but i do not see why you  seek to impose upon the members of
the jewish folk adherence to judaism. they themselves do not
impose such a constraint.


d.a.

Adam to Jeliko:

> Jeliko asked why so many Jews came back to Hungary after the war, and why so
> many still chose to live in Hungary if there is anti-semitism in Hungary. As
 to
> why so many of them went back to Hungary after the war, one reason might be
> that they felt they could help rebuild the country and make it a better place
> (for you, and for me, and the entire human race...:-).

It's too bad that "avenging angels", like Sandor Rajnai and Karoly
Karpathy made that intention virtually invisible to the population.

Joe

Just to further confuse the issue, here is YET ANOTHER Pataki
address:

Friends of Pataki
1014 Main Street
Peekskill, NY 10566

George Lazar wrote :
''Do you think that General Bem could get a 'job' in today's Hungarian
army ? (He was Polish and barely spoke Hungarian.)''
Dear George, Do you think that Lafayette (or Kosciusko? I think he also
fought for the american liberty) could get a 'job' in today's
US army?
You mentioned too, that Antall played the card the nationalism. It is
true, but not in the context you used. I think he did not do anything against
the minorities living in Hungary, but tried to play the card of irredentism.

Returning to the jews, I heard few explanations for not liking the jews:
1) They represent the rich capitalists and at least nowadays the request
of equality is rather strong.
2) If a jew get a position he will prefer jews to work with, gives
better opportunities to jews than to magyars.
3) They afraid that the jews rule the country (and also the world).
Gyuri Wolf

Joe Pannon asks how I know that there is "no 'immediate' cause" of anti-
Semitism--
OK, I don't "know" in the sense that I can postively demonstrate that there
is never any immediate *rationale* for an anti-Semitic act or statement, etc.
But I refer you to Hannah Arendt's very long treatise on "Anti-Semitism" in
"The Origins of Totalitarianism," and to Jean-Paul Sartre's infinitely more
accessible essay, "Portrait of an Anti-Semite," for support for my position.

As to America-bashing by foreign students here--I don't like it, but that's
the price of living in a free society, and I am willing to pay that price.
After all, I don't have to listen to them or take them seriously and I have
the option of countering their miscon/perceptions if I choose.  Big deal!

Udv.,
Be1la

Zoli
> For the record:
>I did not add another reported incident of physical
>attack on Jews, rather referred to one well-known example of anti-Semitic
>violance against a fellow Hungarian (in response to your assertion that
>physical attacks couldn't have happened since you haven't read about them).

    Oh, I'm sorry! I had the distinct impression that you wanted to bump
the number to two the way you phrased your post. I also believe that I did
not phrase my own sentence the way you are alleging but I don't want to bother
to look it up.

> FYI I do read the list regularly, even those posts consisting of pathetic
>blaming of the victims and spelling flames. What exactly was your point,
>if any?

    I cannot tell you what my point was unless you point out where I was
blaming the victims (and spelling flames).

> Now the murder rate by Hungarians is small "statistically", eg. compared
>to the total death rate or the US murder rate or the Rwuandan one. Does
>that mean murders committed my some hungarians do not happen at all? Or
>that we should not condemn them since they only affect a small number of
>victims?

    Now wait just a minute! Are you saying that some Jew(s) was/were actually
murdered by anti-semites in Hungary? I only knew about assaults which did
not end up in death. (Though I do seem to recall the murder of a Roma and
perhaps an African by some skinheads.) Otherwise, I don't quite follow your
rhetorical questions because they don't apply. In the absence of smileys
is this an alternate way for you to escape from the corner you painted
yourself into? I think the smileys were more subtle.
                                                              Matt

Greg writes responding to Kornai:

> However, there was no Western European process,
> > attitude, or event, that played a significant role...

> German, Italian, British cooperation (basing missiles, etc.) with
> Reagan's arms build-up?

The Reagan sponsored military build-up certainly contributed to the
collapse of the Soviet block, by trying to match the military build-up
without a sound economic infrastructure and lacking the benefits from the
fall out from such military technology build-up; the Soviets exhausted
their economy to a point that it could not support even the basic demands
of the population. However, it was not the build-up itself that threatened
them but their own internal response to it.

Regards,Jeliko.

Paul writes:
> Anyone hear from Wolverine lately?  I wanted to know if another potluck
> was planned for DC this year.  Does anyone know about it?

You may try <soc.culture.magyar> for Wolverine.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Balogh writes:

> But my second
> question has not been answered: was it a revolution from above? As it is
well
I would disagree that it was a "revolution from above" it was more likely
action to prevent revolution from below and save as much as possible of
the nomenclatura.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Bokor writes, quoting me:

>Tibor Benke wrote on the topic of red and white terrors:
>
>>Similarly, Bela Kun and his the Lenin boys, didn't just come to be.
>>Eastern Europe produced them with generations of pogroms, with serfdom,
>>with inhumanity piled on inhumanity.
>
>This is not an accurate description of the Hungarian situation. Hungary had
>no pogroms and and serfdom ceased to exist in 1848. This may be an accurate
>depiction of the Russian situation, but Hungary was not Russia. In fact, most
>of the Hungarian bolsheviks came from quite well-heeled and prosperous
>families. Their left-wing politics may have been, in fact, a filial rebellion
>against their parents, who were, for the most part, pro-establishment.
>Whatever, it is dangerous to make pronuncements of this sort without actually
>knowing about the historical background.


I deliberately spoke of pogroms and serfdom in Eastern Europe and *not*
Hungary.  In order to be brief, I didn't describe the social and cognitive
processes at work.  But it seems to me, that if I were an educated jewish
young man of a well to do jewish family, and I read about pogroms against
jews to the east of me and studied Marxism and had conflicts with my
parents who endured the daily humiliations that mercantile people had to
endure (I am not just thinking of jews, but other trades people as well) in
those days,  and was naively trying to develop political loyalties while my
parents blamed me for not being sensible like them, I might easily become a
bolshevik and violent.  Also if my older brother had been a draftee
noncombatant (munkaszolgalatos) taken to the Russian front and killed or
crippled there, I might even feel vengeful.  Further, I spoke of a number
of generations, pointing to the possibility that those young men may have
had ancestors further east and may have not made distinctions too finely
beyond jews and non-jews or maybe just 'progressives' and 'reactionaries'.
But as I pointed out,  I am not trying to justify the red terror, merely
point out that it is no different in principle from, nor less (or more)
understandeable than white terror.  *Terror is terror*, whatever the
colour.

>And one more thing. Since I got on this list last February we have had
>several rounds on anti-semitism in Hungary. To tell you the truth I find
>these discussions quite fruitless and boring. There are antisemites
>everywhere, including Hungary. But I would not call Hungary an anti-semitic
>country per se. Indeed, if it were, Hungary's Jewish population (quite large
>by East European standards) would emigrate in hordes. This is obviously not
>happening.

I too find the discussion of "hungarian anti-semitism" unrewarding, to say
the least!  It's like schoolkids yelling "you're a  __", "no I'm not","You
are too", "nya, nyah, nyah", etc. As a Hungarian (though some might not
think me one), I resent it.  My grandfather was inprisoned in the fall of
1944 'till the end of the war for hiding six jewish people.  My uncle was
married to a Ukranian jewish woman, and my intellectual hero is Karl
Mannheim.  I am not an anti-semite.   To the contrary, I have a great
admiration for jewish contributions to Hungarian culture (Karinthy for one)
and feel that we would be a much poorer nation without them.  I will not
write any more about it.

Respectfully,

Tibor Benke

Sandor Lengyel x5786 ) wrote:
: Kocsis Zoltan irta:

: >>Hogy ki mit itel a 'nep legbuszkebb pillanatanak' az azt hiszem egyeni
kerdes.
: >>Nyilvan sok magyar fiatal ugy gondolja, hogy a magyar tarsadalom eleteben
: >>nagyobb lepes volt elore az, hogy immaron tobb, mint negy eve szabadon
: >>valasztott kormanya van,

: Ez igy van. Sokkal nagyobb lepes. De ez mar a tortenelem arjaval ment, es
foleg
: a szovjet allam legyengulesenek es Gorbacsevnek koszonheto.

: >>mint az, hogy '56-ban forradalom volt, ami alapjaban
: >>veve nem valtoztatott a status quo-n.
-75,000+ ``meneku"lt''

: De igen. Tortenelem alkoto volt. Es a gulyas komunizmust is (az aranylag tobb
: szabadsagot es joletet is annak koszonhetjuk.
hu? :? :| :{ :[ :(

Sandor Lengyel x5786 ) wrote:
: Laborfalvi Benke Tibor writes:

: >>What I was trying to
: >>point out is that rather then fixing blame for the past, we should think
: >>about how we can have a more just and peaceful society and world, because
: >>if we continue as we are, we *shall surely* be destroyed.

: With this I agree whole heartedly.

: Udv. Sandor

2x hu? are you both AH's or what... "blame" ... "more just" ... "destroyed"
are them hungarian concepts?

soundz pretty whiney! (excuse me if i don't understand this thread)

JOE REPLIES TO MY COMMENT ON ETHNIC BASED VOTING:

>Well, good for you, Marc!  May I suggest to vent your anger first
>against those whose support of politicians is conditioned on the support
>of Israel?  That's where the REAL money goes, you know!

Joe, I vent my anger at all sorts of people who vote based on ethnicity.
Including Jews, Italians, & blacks (Marion Barry for example).  But let us not
forget, this is not the ISRAEL listserv, this is the HUNGARY listserv...marq

PS Please note I will now spell my name with a "q" in order to avoid any
confusion with the *other* marc.

get REAL! Joe and Marc. It's 1994 and we are tapping our souls out on these
archaic keyboards. Wasting tyme with this dribble. (That McArthy comment was
as relevant as a Horthy slam!) Iz we iz, or iz we ain't alt.lost.hu under it
all? If ya want real paranoia to tap about why not check out sum old Javor Pal
or Szelecki Zita romance movies and ponder their impact on the geo-political
arena of Hapsburg and WW2 flicks of Reagen? Not good enough? Well, i'm sure
that the IRA is still pissed about Hungary's abandon, as are the Italians for
our intervention of Turks moving into Rome. Now! These could be relevant
topics to argue about.... but lookout! Subversive elements relentlessly work
in the background to derail our logical thinking....
later :)
sp



Joe Pannon ) wrote:
: Marc H. asks:

: >Joe, your last name doesn't happen to be Mcarthey, does it?...marc<;)

: Marc,
: at least learn how to spell the name before trying to associate me with it.

: Joe

On Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:32:39 -0400 > said:
>
>I have been intrigued by these numbers for at least twenty years. Pamle1nyi's
>5,000 is the highest I have heard but the more frequently cited figure was
>2,000. I tracked down the source for the 2,000: a social democratic Viennese
>newspaper wrote an expose at the time and quoted this figure. Out of the
>blue, of course. In my humble opinion that was far too high. The Hungarian
>government in 1920 claimed that there were 350 victims. I think this is too
>low. Andra1s Kornai quoted Borsa1nyi's figures as 1,200 and now we have
>Gosztonyi's 600. One would have to know their methods of coming up with these
>figures before one could ascertain which one is closer to reality.
>
--It may be of some curiosity for you to know that the Federal Research
Division of the Library of Congress's area handbook series has a volume
on Hungary, edited by someone called Stephen R. Burant.  On p. 37,
the book evidently follows Pamlenyi's lead.  Here are the relevant
sentences:

     Estimates place the number of executions at approximately 5000.
     In addition, about 75,000 people were jailed.  In particular,
     the Hungarian right wing and the Romanian forces targeted Jews
     for retribution.  Ultimately, the white terror forced nearly
     100,000 people to leave the country, most of them socialists,
     intellectuals, and middle-class Jews.

--Since this is a publication of our federal government, it may
imply more authority that ordinary although Louis Mortimer,
the acting chief of the Federal Research Division said in the
Foreward that the books in the series "represent the analysis of
the authors and should not be construed as an expression of an
official United States government position, policy or decision"
(p. iii).  There is no specific citation for the figures, but
the Pamlenyi book is cited in the bib, but the specific chapter
in Pamlenyi is not noted.

Charles

I think you're beating a dead voter. :-)  No matter that you disclaim the
connection; the fact that you mention prostitution, murder, pickpocketing and
racism in the same paragraph as "ethnic-based voting" ... well, you should
watch what you link, even by proximity. That's language for you. BTW, I never
said ethnic-based voting wasn't stupid, I just said it was relatively harmless
and, in fact, in some cases clearly functional. Groups undoubtedly look after
their own interests. All right, ethnic groups are hardly homogenous when it
comes to political philosophy, but then neither are Democrats or Republicans,
both parties having members ranging from liberal to conservative to libertarian

--Marc Nasdor  -- 

Joe--

Could we have a little less ethnic-bashing about where the "REAL" money goes.
Lots of money comes from and goes to lots of places neither of us would
approve of.

Hmmm... what about GOPAC. Mr Gingrich is getting into a little hot water about
where his money is coming from.

Marc Nasdor
         "The original Marc and still the best!!!"

Greg quotes and writes:

> ...during the first eight months of 1994,
> ...imports at current prices [were]...
> up 35% on the first eight months of 1993.
> Exports [had]...a 30% increase over the same
> period of last year.  -- Alfred Reisch, RFE/RL Inc.


> Can anyone tell us which categories of goods were responsible
> for the increases?

For the export, it must have been compensation coupons.

Regards,Jeliko.

Zoli Fekete writes:
>  Dear Jeliko,

>  Can we have the names please? I could not see the kind of collective
> guilt you charge (and practice)...
Specifically Bokor and H Marc comes to mind. I did not assign collective
guilt, I have stated "several" and not all. I do not see why you claim
anything in regard to collective guilt. I consider collective guilt claims
by anyone as stupid, such thing was as insidious when claimed by nazis as
it is by anyone else. People are people, they think as individuals and
responsibility for actions is also on an individual basis.


> Thanks - Zoli
> > Several posters indicated that Hungary in general was antisemitic. That
    ^^^^^^^^
is
> > the relation to my question. I do not disagree that there are
Hungarians
> > who are anti-Semitic, however, I disagree that anti-Semitism is an
endemic
> > trait of the Hungarians and I do feel that those who state it are anti-
> > Hungarian.

Regards,Jeliko

Bela Batkay writes:
> make.

> I would prefer that Jeliko and others simply point out where they think
the
> critics of alleged Hungarian anti-Semitism are wrong, and indeed Jeliko
has
> now done this.  Of course, every member of Hungarian society was not and
is
> not anti-Semitic, but to deny some unfortunate and wide-spread tendencies

I agree, that antisemitism of some is persistent in Hungarian society, but
I disagree that it is wide spread. IMHO in Hungary as in many (but not all)
societies there is a continuous homogenization taking place. It is
generally started that out by individual contacts, realizing that the other
fellow is just like me and progressing forward. I think when all personal
hurts jealousies or insults are percieved to be also based on a society
wide anti-whatever, the basic issue gets clouded and in fact is very
counterproductive to it's final elimination. I personally dislike even
hyphenated description of people such as Hungarian-American or
Hungarian-Jew or Jewish-American, IMHO you are either American or Hungarian
or whatever, but I will not deny the right of anyone to hyphenate, if they
so please.

to
> persistent anti-Semitic attitudes *within* Hungarian society is to do no
> more than speak the truth, as I see it.  To compare *some* anti-Semitic
> Hungarians with *some* anti-Semitic Americans is to miss the point that
> America has never had the kind of apparently deep-seated suspicion of and
> even hostility to Jews as such that has characterized most of the Eastern
> European countries during the 19th and 20th centuries.  And, yes, not
> only *East* European societies--most reasonable people would include
France
> and Germany here, as well.

But the original majority of immigrants came from those countries and the
majority of those was not highly educated. So there maybe some difficulty
with this type of source based or location based methodology also.IMHO, in
the US we started to look at and value individual rather than origin
capabilities more than other societies. If we can broaden this type of
interaction we will succeed in further decreasing any type of
discrimination. I also think that is the best way to face any "anti"
problems in Hungary and that is the reason, I am very upset when it gets
back to generalization.

>  After all, it was Hungary
> that invented the idea that an anti-Semite is someone who "hates Jews
more
> than is *necessary*" [emphasis mine].

Honest alligator, I never heard that before, must have been running in the
"wrong" circles. :-).

Regards,Jeliko.

Subject: Re: Anti-semitism
From: paul, 
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 20:25:17 EDT
In article > paul,
 writes:
> Adam wrote:

>>You were asking in what ways anti-semitism manifests itself in Hungary.
I have
>>lived in BUdapest most of my life, so I can only speak for Budapest, but
>>considering that a fifth of the Hungarian population lives there
Budapest is
>>quite significant. So, if you ever get a chance to, walk around in
different
>>areas of Budapest wearing a well visible Star of David on your necklace.
>>Compare the reactions you get with the reactions you get if you do the
same
>>thing wearing a 3-inch-long cross! I guarantee, that you will notice the
>>.
>>.


>To understand how up to date this is, can I ask how recently you lived in
>Budapest?  I ask because I assume you do not live there now since your
e-mail
>address is a U.S. address: 


>Does anyone know if this is still the case now, or is this old
information?

i was last in budapest in 1993. speaking. jewish people i know there told
me, when i saked, that it was increasingly true.

>If so, I'm surprised,

life is full of surprises.

> since I was reading in a Hungarian hhistory book that
>before WWII, and possibley before WWI, when American Jews were trying to
>stir up touble among Hungarian Jews, the Hungarian Jews responded that,
>whatever you do in the case of Hungary, do it to help the whole country,
>but do not cause trouble here (more or less).

very few of the jews from hungary i know feel that they are not subjected
to anti-semitism.

> I can look up the name of the
>book if anyone cares -

please do.

>I think it is a common one everyone would know about
>or own.  My impression from the few pages I read was that religous
tension
>was minor.

anti-semitism is not so much a case of religious intolreance (although
that is part of its origin) as a form of racialism. its targets are not
only those who ascribe to judaism as a religion but just as much
secular jews, even people who disclaim any "jewishness" but are of
jewish background.


if you want references, just look up any set of archives on the jewish
laws in hungary in the 30's and 40's for a start.

d.a.

Jeliko claims that I am anti-Hungarian.  HA! HA! HA!  What a ridiculous claim.
Yeah, I hate my own my father.  Yeah, I spend big bux to travel to Hungary just
so that I can vent my anti-Hungarianism in the streets of Budapest.  And I even
subscribe to the HUNGARIAN mailing list just to torture myself.
If I were to say that most Americans are homo-phobic, would I be wrong?  I do
not think so.  But just because I stated the fact that most Americans are
homo-phobic does not mean I am Anti-American.  Neither does my statement that
*too many* Hungarians are anti-semitic.  If I am Anti anything, I am Anti-anti.
NEW SUBJECT!!! (There must be some good stuff happening in Hungary, no?)...marq

Gabor Barsai writes:

> All Germans are nazis.
> All Russians are commies.
> All Slovaks are hicks.
> All Americans are uncivilized rednecks.
> ...etc.
>
> Yeah, just kill us all,

and restore the stone age!

--Greg

jennifer k thomas writes:

> It appears that many
> people view former or archaic lifestyles as inferior to contemporary
> ones.  In most cases, as in this one, I believe that such a superiority
> complex is unfounded.

So advise us if you advocate a return to this style of life?  And why
or why not?

--Greg

Please post!

My apologies for any duplicate mailings.

Eric Dahlin



> ======================================================================

            ASSOCIATION FOR COMPUTERS AND THE HUMANITIES
         ASSOCIATION FOR LITERARY AND LINGUISTIC COMPUTING

          1995 JOINT INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ACH-ALLC 95

                          JULY 11-15, 1995
          UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SANTA BARBARA, CALIFORNIA


                          CALL FOR PAPERS

This conference--the major forum for literary, linguistic and
humanities computing--will highlight the development of new
computing methodologies for research and teaching in the humanities,
the development of significant new computer-based resources for
humanities research, especially focusing on the issues and problems
of networked access to materials, and the developing applications,
evaluation, and use of traditional scientific and computing
techniques in humanities disciplines.


TOPICS:  We welcome submissions on topics and applications focused
on the humanities disciplines, defined as broadly as possible:
languages and literature, history, philosophy, music, art,
linguistics, anthropology and archaeology, creative writing, and
cultural studies.  We are interested in receiving technical
proposals that focus on the cutting edge issues of the application
of scientific tools and approaches to humanities disciplines;
discipline-based proposals that focus on some of the more
traditionally defined applications of computing in humanities
disciplines, including text encoding, hypertext, text corpora,
computational lexicography, statistical models, and syntactic,
semantic, stylistic and other forms of text analysis; broad library
and research-based proposals that focus on significant issues of
text documentation and information retrieval; and tools-focused
proposals that offer innovative and substantial applications and
uses for humanities-based teaching and research, throughout the
academic and research worlds.


The deadline for submissions is 31 DECEMBER 1994.


REQUIREMENTS: Proposals should describe substantial and original
work. Those that concentrate on the development of new computing
methodologies should make clear how the methodologies are applied
to research and/or teaching in the humanities, and should include
some critical assessment of the application of those methodologies
in the humanities. Those that concentrate on a particular
application in the humanities (e.g., a study of the style of an
author) should cite traditional as well as computer-based
approaches to the problem and should include some critical
assessment of the computing methodologies used. All proposals
should include conclusions and references to important sources.


INDIVIDUAL PAPERS: Abstracts of 1500-2000 words should be submitted
for presentations of thirty minutes including questions.


SESSIONS: Proposals for sessions (90 minutes) are also invited.
These should take the form of either:

(a) Three papers. The session organizer should submit a 500-word
statement describing the session topic, include abstracts of
1000-1500 words for each paper, and indicate that each author is
willing to participate in the session; or

(b) A panel of up to 6 speakers. The panel organizer should submit
an abstract of 1500 words describing the panel topic, how it will
be organized, the names of all the speakers, and an indication that
each speaker is willing to participate in the session.


POSTERS AND DEMONSTRATIONS


ACH-ALLC '95 will include poster presentations and software and
project demonstrations (either stand-alone or in conjunction with
poster presentations) to give researchers an opportunity to present
late-breaking results, significant work in progress, well-defined
problems, or research that is best communicated in conversational
mode.

By definition, poster presentations are less formal and more
interactive than a standard talk.  Poster presenters will have the
opportunity to exchange ideas one-on-one with attendees and to
discuss their work in detail with those most deeply interested in
the same topic.  Posters are actually several large pieces of paper
that present an overview of a topic or a problem.  Poster presenters
are given space to display two or three posters, and may provide
handouts with examples or more detailed information.

Poster presenters must be present at their posters at a
specific time during the conference to describe their work and
answer questions, but posters will remain up throughout the
conference.  Specific times will also be assigned for software or
project demonstrations.  Further information on poster presentations
is available from the Program Committee chair.

Posters proposals and software and project demonstrations will be
accepted until February 15, 1995 to provide an opportunity for
submitting very current work that need not be written up in a full
paper.  Poster or software/project demonstration proposals should
contain a 300 to 500 word abstract in the same format described
below for paper proposals.  Proposals for software or project
demonstrations should indic ate the type of hardware that would be
required if the proposal is accepted.

Doctoral students are encouraged to consider poster submission as a
viable means for discussing ongoing dissertation research.

FORMAT OF SUBMISSIONS

Electronic submissions are strongly encouraged.  Please pay
particular attention to the format given below.  Submissions which
do not conform to this format will be returned to the authors for
reformatting, or may not be considered if they arrive very close to
the deadline.

All submissions should begin with the following information:

TITLE: title of paper
AUTHOR(S): names of authors
AFFILIATION: of author(s)
CONTACT ADDRESS: full postal address
E-MAIL: electronic mail address of main author (for contact),
     followed by other authors (if any)
FAX NUMBER: of main author
PHONE NUMBER: of main author

(1) Electronic submissions

These should be plain ASCII text files, not files formatted by a
wordprocessor, and should not contain TAB characters or soft
hyphens. Paragraphs should be separated by blank lines. Headings
and subheadings should be on separate lines and be numbered. Notes,
if needed at all, should take the form of endnotes rather than
footnotes. References, up to six, should be given at the end.
Choose a simple markup scheme for accents and other characters that
cannot be transmitted by electronic mail, and include an
explanation of the markup scheme after the title information and
before the start of the text.

Electronic submissions should be sent to
Elaine Brennan >
with the subject line "<Author's surname> Submission for ACH-ALLC95".


(2) Paper submissions

Submissions should be typed or printed on one side of the paper
only, with ample margins. Six copies should be sent to

ACH-ALLC95 (Paper submission)
Elaine Brennan
ATLIS Consulting Group
6011 Executive Boulevard
Rockville, MD  20852
USA

EQUIPMENT AVAILABILITY


Presenters will have available an overhead projector, a Kodak slide
projector, a data projector which will display Macintosh,
DOS/Windows, and video (but not simultaneously), a computer which
will run Macintosh OS programs or DOS/Windows programs, and a VHS
(NTSC) videocassette recorder.  PAL format will be available; if you
anticipate needing PAL, please note this information in your proposal.

It will be possible to transfer programs and data from removable
media (floppy disks, SyQuest 44MB cartridges, and Bernoulli
cartridges) to the presentation computers.  Requests for other
presentation equipment will be considered by the local organizer;
requests for special equipment should be directed to the local
organizer no later than December 31, 1994.


DEADLINES

Proposals for papers and sessions            December 31, 1994
Proposals for poster presentations           February 15, 1995
Notification of acceptance                   March 15, 1995

PUBLICATION

A selection of papers presented at the conference will be published
in the series Research in Humanities Computing edited by Susan
Hockey and Nancy Ide and published by Oxford University Press.


INTERNATIONAL PROGRAM COMMITTEE

Proposals will be evaluated by a panel of reviewers who will make
recommendations to the Program Committee comprised of:

Chair: Elaine Brennan, ATLIS Consulting Group (ACH)
       Marilyn Deegan, Oxford University (ALLC)
       Gordon Dixon, Manchester Metropolitan University (ALLC)
       Marianne Gaunt, Rutgers University (ACH)
       Susan Hockey, Rutgers and Princeton Universities (ALLC)
       Nancy Ide, Vassar College (ACH)
       Espen Ore, University of Bergen (ALLC)
       Willard McCarty, University of Toronto (ACH)
Local Organizer: Eric Dahlin, University of California, Santa Barbara
                 (ACH)

LOCATION


UC Santa Barbara, one of the nine campuses of the University of
California, has an enrollment of some 18000 graduate and
undergraduate students and is situated on a scenic 500 acre seashore
campus 10 miles north of the city of Santa Barbara.

Santa Barbara, a Southern California coastal community of
80,000 population, lies about 100 miles north of Los Angeles
on Highway 101, the principal coast highway between
Los Angeles and San Francisco. A popular tourist center, it
offers the visitor a wide range of accommodations and a
great variety of recreational and cultural attractions.
It is readily accessible by road, and is served by
the major airlines.

Economically priced accommodation for those attending the
conference will also be available on the campus itself.

It is expected at this time that the fee for early
registration for the conference will be in the $125 to
$150 range, with an additional fee for late registration.

Detailed information about the conference will be made
available in January or February of 1995.

For further information please communicate with:

Eric Dahlin
Local Organizer, ACH/ALLC '95
Office of the Provost
College of Letters and Science
University of California
Santa Barbara, California 93106
USA

Phone: 805/687-5003
E-mail: 


Note:
=====

Information about the conference will be circulated
on the e-list:

     

To subscribe to the list, send an ordinary e-mail message
containing the single line:

     subscribe reach "your name"

with your own name, not your e-mail address, in place of
"your name," without the quotation marks, to the address:

     


> ======================================================================

Eva Balogh writes:

> >Right.  You have to make allowance for the time the book was published
> >and the authors.  Well, at least Berend.
>
> I don't have the book in front of me but I don't think that this particular
> chapter was written by Berend.

I do, and the authorship is clearly stated.  However, if false, it wouldn't
be the book's first lie.  :-)

--Greg

> NEW SUBJECT!!! (There must be some good stuff happening in Hungary, no?)
> ...marq
 They're aplenty - eg. there's no OJ hysteria (yet?)!

-- Zoli ;-(

> ...the authorship is clearly stated.

Oops!  ...stated to be Berend and Gyo2rgy Ra1nki's.

--Greg

I do not wish to be part of this list anymore. Is it possible to stop sending
mail to this account    ? I would appreciate it very much.

H Marc writes:

> I really do not believe that anyone on the Hungarian mailing list is
anti-
> Hungarian.  The idea that someone would have their mailbox filled
everyday by
> hungarian topics and be anti-hungarian at the same time is quite
ludicrous.
> ...marc

Thank you for clarifying your attitude, even though I feel the
generalizations offered in the past are incorrect. Unfortunately, there is
enough generic Hungarian bashing on several other newsgroups, so this one
does not need to ascribe collective guilt or racial behavior to people en
bloc.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Balogh writes:

> Indeed, if it were, Hungary's Jewish population (quite large
> by East European standards) would emigrate in hordes. This is obviously not
> happening.

It would be interesting to see Jewish emigration rates relative to the
total Jewish population in the various ex-East bloc states.

I can't say how much it would prove or disprove, but it would be
interesting.  Perhaps it's been done?


--Greg

Helen Hartnell writes:   (Text deleted)


Thank you very much for your contribution. It is good to read firsthand
reports from unbiased participants. Keep it up.

Regards,Jeliko.
PS. I hope the dog was a Komondor or a Kuvasz.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>DEAR FACINTL MEMBERS,
>        I AM INTERESTED IN RECEIVING INFORMATION REGARDING
>FUNDING OPPORTUNITIES FOR TEACHING ENGLISH WITHIN RUSSIA OR
>OTHER FORMER EASTER BLOC COUNTRIES...PERHAPS FOR VARIOUS BANKING
>INSTITUTIONS.
>        MANY THANKS,
>        JOHN FLOOD
Hi John
Don't know if these references are new/fit the bill but here goes
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 11:13:37 -0400
From: Simple Wais Login > To: 

--------------------
W. Averell Harriman Institute Postdoctoral Fellowships Deadline Date: Jan 2

TG/ HARRIMAN W AVERELL INSTITUTE POSTDOCTORAL FELLOWSHIPS RQ/ Applicants
must have completed dissertations within the preceding three years. To
apply, a scholar must write the assistant director a letter outlining how
she or he will spend time revising a dissertation for publication. Besides
forwarding a curriculum vitae and substantial portions of the dissertation,
applicants should ask three scholars who are familiar with their work to
forward letters of evaluation and recommendation. RS/
AN/ The goals of the institute are the preparation of graduate students for
scholarly and professional careers in Russian, Soviet, and post-Soviet
studies; the promotion of advanced research on Russia, the CIS, and the
post-Soviet reality; and the dissemination of information, analyses, and
opinions derived from institute-sponsored research and activities.
Postdoctoral fellowships allow a scholar to spend a period of time at the
institute without any obligations other than to revise his or her
dissertation for publication as a book. Fellows are welcome to participate
in the intellectual life of the institute. All fellows will have access to
the university's libraries, the institute's reading room, archives,
lectures, and discussions. TL/ Assistant Director, Senior and Postdoctoral
Fellowships, W. Averell Harriman Institute, (212) 854-4623 OR/ Columbia
University
RO/
TP/ UN
PG/
AD/ 420 W 118th St
LN/ New York, NY
ZP/ 10027
CY/
$$/ Up to $10,000 per semester
PM/

RC/ Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS);International
Relations;Diplomacy;International Studies $28
$29 H
$30
RD/
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 11:14:30 -0400
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 11:13:40 -0400
From: Simple Wais Login > To: 

--------------------
W. Averell Harriman Institute Senior Fellowships Deadline Date: Jan 2

TG/ HARRIMAN W AVERELL INSTITUTE SENIOR FELLOWSHIPS RQ/
RS/
AN/ The institute was established to meet three critical areas of need: the
preparation of graduate students for scholarly and professional careers in
Russian, Soviet, and post-Soviet studies; the promotion of advanced
research on Russia, the CIS, and the post-Soviet reality; and the
dissemination of information, analyses, and opinions derived from
institute-sponsored research and activities. The Senior Fellowship Program
is designed to bring to Columbia established as well as beginning scholars
of unusual promise from other universities throughout the world. Fellows
spend a semester or a full academic year working on a project of their own,
free from the usual demands of university life. The chief obligation of a
senior fellow is to carry out a serious and valuable piece of research
while at Columbia. Senior fellows are expected to give formal or informal
talks on one or two occasions to faculty or student groups and to consult
with faculty, students, and other fellows working on problems close to
their own interests. The institute will provide as much scholarly
assistance as it can. All fellows have access to the university's
libraries, the institute's reading room, lectures, classes, and
discussions. The institute offers grants to senior fellows to cover enough
of their living and travel expenses to permit them to live and work in New
York City. There are no application forms; application guidelines are
available upon request. TL/ Assistant Director, Senior and Postdoctoral
Fellowships, W. Averell Harriman Institute, (212) 854-4623 OR/ Columbia
University
RO/
TP/ UN
PG/
AD/ 420 W 118th St
LN/ New York, NY
ZP/ 10027
CY/
$$/
PM/

RC/ Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS);International
Studies;International Relations;Diplomacy $28
$29 H
$30
RD/
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 11:12:44 -0400
From: Simple Wais Login > To: 


Cheers
John Hart
----------

I came across this posting and thought it might be interesting to members
of this list.




-----------------------
Steven Carlson
Critical Mass Media Inc.              * data is duty free *
Budapest, Hungary

>From Hungary. Ofcourse.
There is a program called Multikey which works with DOS and Windows, but
you still need some hungarian fonts for windows, otherwise you do not have
all the letters.

If it would be not illegal, I would tell her to send me a self addressed
envelope and 2 3.5 inch disk, and I would send her a copy.

Sandor Lengyel

H. Marc writes:

> With all due respect, the "It will never go way" argument is a stupid one.
> Prostitution will never go away.  Murder will never go away.  Pickpocketing
> will never go away.  Racism will never go away.  Cheating will never go away.

..slavery will never go away...

--Greg

Eva Balogh wrote on Oct 24, 1994 in connection with the White Terror:
    "I have been intrigued by these numbers for at least twenty years.
    Pamle1nyi's 5,000 is the highest I have heard but the more frequently cited
    figure was 2,000."
I am very surprised that the source of such a widely quoted data is not
available.

Most recently I saw the 5000 figure quoted in a book about von Neummann (by
Steve J. Heims) as follows: "Appoximately 5000 men and women were killed, in
effect executed, in this period of the 'White Terror'; another 100,000,
including many urban Jews, fled the country. The number of violent deaths
produced by the White Terror was about twenty times as large as the number of
violent deaths produced by the relativly moderate Red Terror of the Kun's
regime." Heims credits Rudolph L. To3ke1s, Be1la Ku1n and the Hungarian Soviet
Republic (New York: Preager, 1967) for his information.

Essentially the same statement is in a the Hungarian high school history
textbook, written by Endre Balogh and approved by B. Ba1lint, M. Ince, E.
Pamle1nyi and Ra1nki. (Tanko2nyvkiado1, Budapest, 1980). But this book does not
qualify the 5000 figure with *approximately*.

If this figure is an exaggeration and part of the communist propaganda to
discredit the Horthy regime, it is certainly reaching a wide audience.

Barna Bozoki

Tibor Benke writes:

>  As someone said, consistency is the bane of small minds. :-).  Seriously
> though, I don't think its the discussion of anarchy that you mind so
much,
> but my advocacy of it.  After all, I am sure you at least believe in free
> speech, no?

Ah sure do and nobody should tell you otherwise. Particularly, because some
sense of humor also exists in your writing.
I have no problem with anything good folks write as long as the items are
shown as opinions (when they are in fact only that) and do not try make
their opinions into a holy writ.

> I make no bones about it, I think we would all be better of without the
> state.  However, I understand that the state evolved some 6,000 years ago
> and is therefore a historical social reality, we can't just wish it away.

If anything, I prefer the libertarian approach to that of the anarchist
approach.

> If the state hadn't evolved, the density of population on the planet
would
> never have reached its present level.
This is an assumption that is not necessarily valid. It is likely that the
population growth of the planet led to the establishment of the government
and not the other way around. Of course some governments tried to
contribute to it a la Ceaucescu, but those were later effects.

>Perhaps modern technology would not
> have evolved either.
Lets see first the clearing up of some terminology, at which point does
technology become "modern"? There were major advances in technology,
before the state got itself involved in technology promotion and even then
it was selective in its promotion. To the best of my knowledge, items like
the reaper or the citton gin or treshing machines did not come out of
government laboratories. The greatest achievements in technology came from
individual minds. Or is that an anrchist tenet? :-)

>But now we have both, and we have to deal with it.

Again, where is this now and when did it start in time to be valid as now?
By using a stick do dig out the root or sharpening a stick to use for
hunting?

> That fact, however, does not imply that we have to like it,
No, no one is forced to use it. You could walk to UBC or Simon Fraser
(whichever it is) wrapped in furs and make note on a stone tablet (Oops,
that maybe considered as "technology" already, it certainly was new
technology in the first modern states, i.e. Sumer and Elam. On the way you
could gather some pinenuts in Stanley Park instead of eating in the
cafeteria. And who would be giving the lectures and from what? Do you want
me to go on? I do not think so.

>or accept that
> it will never change.  I am thinking all the time about how we can get
rid
> of it.
The longest journey starts with the first step. If you want to decrease the
government stop using its benefits, the same for technology. IMHO, it will
not happen like switching from daylight to standard time at midnight.

One of the most modern technologies is medicine making and medical
technology. So next time you are sick ask some Tlinglit or other tribsmen
for help instead of your doctor (or is it already going that way with the
Canadian medical insurance program?:-)).

>  Historical experience tells us that it cannot be done violently, for two
> reasons: 1.)  The state arose as a method of organizing violence and

That is again your opinion. My study of history led me to a different
conclusion.

> organized violence beats unorganized violence every time - that is why
> states exist;

Now on a relative basis I can look at Haiti and Rwanda which are much less
organized compaired to probably the currently most highly organized society
Japan and not agree with your opinion.
Looking at the Viet Cong and the Afghan rebels versus the US and Russia
again does not validate your argument.

2)  human consciousness is determined by human activity (and
> not, as is commonly thought, the other way around) so that violent
activity
> leads to a violent consciousness which will lead to more violence and the
> state will always reconstitute itself.
Again you stating this as a fact does not make it into a fact. I disagree.

>Thus we have to figure out how to
> get rid of the state without violence.  The IWW was on the right track.
We
> simply have to persuade enough people (about 90%) that they would be
better
> off organizing their lives voluntarily
That is about how the state was born, but now you claim that is the way it
would disappear. At some point a historical perspective needs to enter the
picture.

and ignoring all violent orders.
> Those who use force can kill, but they can't make anyone who is willing
to
> die for their freedom *do* anything.
 Yes, I have heard of Gandhi and others before.

>When everyone's mind is freed,

I presume that will occur, when everybody feels like you do? :-)
Freed of what?

  the
> state will wither away.
I do not see the connection!

>Meanwhile, think for yourself, and do what you can
> to educate others, and don't be fooled by the powertrippers.

Now we agree 100%!

> Csurka raises the spectre of the Kun Belas return.
I am sorry, but I do not care whose specter he or anyone else raises.

But the mistake of
the
> communists was not their picture of common property and a cooperative
> society based on mutual aid, but the idea that they could institute it by
> violence which only begets more violence.  But don't be deceived, uncle
> Karl was right about a lot of things, and no one has, as far as I can
see,
> refuted the theory of the falling rate of profit, thus the eventual
demise
> of capitalism is sure - either we reform or the planet will become devoid
> of human life sooner or later.

These again are your opinions, stating them will not convert them into
facts.

> Cheers,

We again agree 100%!

> Tibor

Regards,Jeliko.

Hobbes wrote:

No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all,
continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life
of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

--Greg

In general, I applaud Jeliko's reasoned response to my posting.  I assure
him however that I did not invent the Hungarian definition of an anti-Semite,
but I confess that I no longer remember the source.  I did however first
hear or read it in graduate school, in the late 60's.  Perhaps we are facing
a generation gap here.

Udv.,
Be1la

Joe notes without qualification that "[a]fter all, Hungarianness was never
defined by blood but by loyalty"--

Quite true as far as it goes--remember Peto2fi/Petrovics?  The problem is that
it never extended fully to Jews, despite the fact that many of them were rapid
Hungarian nationalists.  Radno1ti et al were not shot in the very closing days
of the war by SS guards, but, so far as I am aware, by "tiszta magyarok."
*Had* "Hungarianness" really been defined by loyalty things might have been
 verydifferent, and there would be a hell of lot more Hungarian Jews around
 today.

Udv.,
Be1la

Love that Hobbes!

Udv.,
Be1la

Imi Bokor recently referred to the archives on the Jewish laws in Hungary
in the 1930's and 40's.  For those who may not have access to archival
sources, I would suggest Randolph Braham's monumental 2-volume "The Holo-
caust in Hungary," which is based almost exclusively on archival research,
but is largely limited to an exhaustive description of the actual deportations,
killings, etc., during the war.  (There may be a 1-volume abridgement available
.
        For the period 1920-1943, there is Nathaniel Katzburg, "Hungary and
the Jews--Policy and Legislation 1920-1943," Bar-Ilan University Press, 1981.
This also draws very heavily on Hungarian and other archives, and includes
several previously-unpublished documents (letters, reports by foreign observ-
ers, and the like).

        The burden of Katzburg's study is that, while Hungarian governments
were not primarily responsible for the *ultimate* virtual destruction of
Hungarian Jewry, the anti-Jewish policies and legislation of the pre-1943
period had the effect of completely isolating and dis-empowering the Jewish
community, so that it fell easy victim to the genocidal intent of the post-
1943 Hungarian governments and their German puppet-masters.

        To quote the great sage Hillel (admittedly, out of context)--
"Now go and study!"

Udv.,
Be1la

Marc Nasdor writes:

> I think you're beating a dead voter. :-)  No matter that you disclaim the
> connection; the fact that you mention prostitution, murder, pickpocketing and
> racism in the same paragraph as "ethnic-based voting" ... well, you should
> watch what you link, even by proximity. That's language for you. BTW, I never
> said ethnic-based voting wasn't stupid, I just said it was relatively harmles
s
> and, in fact, in some cases clearly functional.

I am glad you make a lot more sense than your namesake.  Of course I
would not vote for Pataki just because he has a Hungarian background if
I felt he was not closer to my own politics than Cuomo is.
I happen to belive that Cuomo is a superliberal demagogue and almost
anybody  would be better than he is -- in my opinion.  Of course the
fact that his opponent happen to have Hungarian name is an extra bonus.
(... and worth my financial support as well.) ;-)

Have you heard that the New York mayor, Giuliani (sp?) threw his support
for Cuomo, despite being a Republican?  I guess he has better chance to
get his city subsidized by a free spending liberal than a fiscally
conservative governor.  Or maybe it's the Italian solidarity?  Neah ...
D'Amato, after all, supports Pataki.

Joe

Subject: Re: Re.: Antisemitism
From: Gabor Barsai, 
Date: 25 Oct 1994 04:26:07 GMT
In article > Gabor Barsai,
 writes:

>>i don't know about george, but i certainly reject the insinuation that
>>we believe the garbage above. if you were to look back at my postings
>>you will note that i refrain from universal statements, restrict
>>myself to general statements and have cited examples of the many
>>exceptions to the general rule.
>
>Yes for example:
>>>From  Mon Oct 24 23:37:00 EDT 1994
>>>Article: 2973 of bit.listserv.hungary
>>>From:  (IMRE BOKOR)
>>>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
>>>Subject: Re: Anti-semitism
>>>Date: 23 Oct 1994 20:43:46 GMT
>>>Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia
>>>
>>>his/her jewish heritage and began to pay more attention to "innocent
>>>comments'. each of them has said to me that, yes, anti-semitism is
still
>>>alive in hungary even if it is not as overt and virulent as it has been
>>>in the earlier half of this century.
>>>
>>>hungarian history is replete with anti-semitism --- even if it has only
>>>been called that for about 100 years. there have also been significant
>>>movements against it. what makes hungarian society as such anti-semitic
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>is the same thing as makes it anti-gypsy, namely a general prevalence
>>>of such bigotted attitudes, often directed at phantom caricatures, but
>>>nevertheless prevalent. one good indicator of how welcome a minority is
>>>in a larger society is the personal experience of the members of that
>>>minority. welcome minorities are usually thankful --- and relieved if
>>>the welcome in in contrast to prior experience --- and do not have an
>>>incentive to hide from a child his/her belonging to such a minority.
>>>
>>>d.a.
>>>
>>>:                                                             Matt
>
>What I underlined (underscored, whatever) is not very universal
statement, is
>it? I inserted the rest so you wouldn't complain "it's out of text".
Obviously,
>some of what ya write is unfortunately true. But some of what you write
is just
>plain old BS.

it seems that a remedial course in english comprehension would serve you
well. if you ask someone who is not suffering from some form of
literacy challenged syndrome, he or she will be able to explain to you
that

(i) the section you highlighted is *not* a universal statement as is made
abundantly clear when one reads the rest of the sentence: the part with
the verb and the rest: "what makes hungarian society as such
anti=-semitic" is followed by the verb "" and then the predicate
"the same thing as makes it anti-gypsy, namely a *general prevalence* of
such bigotted attitudes, often directed at phantom caricatures, but
nevertheless *prevalent*". [i have taken the liberty of adding emphasis.
i am sure the author of the original text will have no objection to
such liberty.] if the distinction between "prevalent" and "ubiquitous"
or between "general" and "universal" is unclear to you, then consult
a dictionary more substantial than the readers' digest credit card
sized abridged version of "the tourist's guide to common english phrases".
ask someone to read it out for you.

(ii) the immediately preceding sentence acknowledges the *significant
movements against* anti-semitism.

>>i don't know where you received your logical or mathematical training,
>>but -- on the basis of your posting -- it seems to be patently
>>inadequate.

>I got it from Inert State University, from Prof. I.M. Boring. Where did
you get
>yours?

at several places. we studied elementary logic in our mathematics and
science classes at high school. it was important to know, or so the
teachers told us, the difference between a universal and a general
statement. a universal statement is disproved by one single
counter-example
whereas finding even several counter-examples does not negate a general
statement.

then later i met formal logic in other courses as well, but by then it
was as easy as anything. we had good teachers.

>Anyway, thanks for your compliment.

another instance confirming churchill's perception.


>I guess since you don't use upper
>case (capital) letters, your logic is better than mine.

my using only lower case characters has little to do with logic. it
arises from mmy undertaking to use only lower or only upper case
characters in texts i write because my inconsistency once caused
offence in this group, or at least it led to some unwarranted
concern.

>>i hope you will also not dispute that hitler enjoyed substantial support
>>in the german population until at least after the battle of stalingrad.

>Sure. But what's it got to do w/ Anti-semitism in HU? Or are you leading
up to
>the point that Horthy enjoyed substantial support in regards to
deportation?

a great deal. the analogy is that in germany, hitler enjoyed general but
far from universal support. the principles and ideas he represented were
prevalent in german society, albeit not universally subscribed to.
so it is in hungary. racialist attitudes are prevalent, but not universal.
the two most striking forms of racialism in hungary are directed
at/against
jews and gypsies. these are particularly important becasue they are
directed
at parts hungary's population, so that they affect the daily lives of a
significant number of hungarian citizens. that does not make these two
forms of racialism any less odious and obnoxious than any other forms.

>
>>so it is with anti-semitism in hungary (and elsewhere). it is probably
>>nowhere a universal phenomenon, but it is more or less prevalent in
>>very many societies, and alarmingly so in countries like hungary,
poland,
>>the ukraine, germany, slovakia to name but a few.
>
>Oh, so it's worse than in the U.S.?

i don't know. i do not know how prevalent anit-semitism is in the usa.
i have read about various forms of racialism in the usa, and there, if
what i have read is more or less true, it is the black population which
is the primary target.

>
>>that is not to say that the anti-semitic attitudes lead everywhere to
>>physical assault or lynchings, or that they are based on unpleasant
>>experience with flesh-and-blood jews. but there are in many societies
>>attitudes, values and tastes which are shared by the society at large.
>>for example, i would say that for most hungarians, if it has no meat,
>>it is not a meal. similarly, as the survey results show, there is a
>>negative attitude to jews in hungary. that is a anti-semitism, albeit
>>of a mild form. unfortunately it is not only a question of such abstract
>>anti-semitism, for these attitudes do have material consequences, and
>>the decreasing inhibition to give vent to anti-semitic feelings is a
>>development which should be of concern to any enlightened person. that
>>is not to say that anti-gypsy racialism, or anti-turkish racialism in
>>germany, anti-arab in france, anti-"paki" in england are any less
>>imprtant or significant than anti-semitism. they are different aspects
>>of the same ugly side of today's europe.
>
>Finally, some sense out of you. Although I still doubt there is a
negative
>attitude, in general, towards jews in HU today, from my own experience,
>obviously.

unless you are either jews or taken to be jewish, your direct experience
of anti-semitism is likely to be limited, which does not mean that it is
inaccurate. but as someone else has posted, even recent surveys of
attitudes revealed a hostility towards jews in a majority of hungarians.
that counts, at least according to what i was taught about the english
language" as "prevalence".

the jews i know in hungary have reported quite different experiences
from yours. but then, they are biased, for they are likely to be the
butt of anti-semitism and not just occasioanl innocent bystanders.


>Another quite obvious fact is that it is, usually, not enjoyable to
>be a minority (of any type), anywhere. (Whether it's being a Palestinian
in
>Israel, or Hungarian in Romania, or a Jew in Hungary). Being a minority
of any
>type means not having the same customs, culture,...etc., you are
different,
>which can make your life miserable with the majority.

nonsense. for a long time whites were the minority in, for example,
south africa, and it was the majority which suffered as a consequence.
maybe a few logic lessons from mr williams or mr harrison would serve you
well.


>From what I know, I
>believe Hungary and Hungarians, for the most part, today are not against
>non-Hungarians or minorities living in the country. (My experiences
start from
>the '70s). Sure, I know your gonna tell me to look at the hix.moka
jokes. I
>guess I can't defend that, only my experience with Hungarian life, which
is
>that it is not an aggressive society, mentally or physically.

my experience has been different. the behaviour patterns -- such as the
prevalence of smoking, alcohoiism, divorce, suicide -- seem to me to
indicate a society with a high level of tension. my ipression is
that the tension has increased noticeably in recent years, and that
personal intercourse is increasingly marked ny hostility and
competitiveness rather than civility and co-operation. but these are
merely
my impressions.

d.a.

FRISS ADATOK A GOPHEREN....!!!!!!!!!!

            HUSPIAC A VEGETARIANUS MAGYARORSZAGERT ?
   Az utobbi honapokban, mintegy varazsutesre, hirtelen az egbe
szoktek a husarak. Arat emeltek a takrmanypiacon, hat arat
emeltek a tenyesztok is. Eleinte csokkentetek az eloaru
leadasat, mondvan hogy lehet az, hogy amig ok 110- 120 forintot
kapnak kilonkent a sertesekert, addig a bolti hust negyszer
annyiert adjak. Tenyleg : HOGY ?
   De ez csak a mult, mert most mar 140-150 forintert
jutnak elosertesert a vagohidak, ha egyaltalan jutnak (!),
ugyanis ott tartunk, hogy - kulonosen a nagymultu
nagyfeldolgozok eseteben - vagokapacitasuknak csupan 50
szazalekat hasznaljak ki. De a sertesvagohidaknak meg jo,
marmint ahoz kepest, hogy a marhavagohidak egyes esetekben csak
takareklangon, 30 szazalekkal uzemelnek. Visszaterve az alapveto
nepelelmezesi cikkent szamontatott serteshushoz nezzuk meg hol
kezdodnek a gondok ?
    A HUSToZSDE elszamoloarai csak novemberre es decemberre mutatnak
nemi stabilitast. Vagosertes I. kategoria, mely 100 kg elosulyu
serteseket jelent, gyakorlatilag 55 szazalek szinhus-tartalommal,
novemberre 145, decemberre 155 Ft/kg elszamoloarakat produkalt.
A vagosertes II.-es kategoriaban ennel mintegy 10 - 15 forinttal
alacsonyabb ajanlati arakat hozott az oszi szel, minimalis (0.00
forintos) forgalommal.
  "Mondja marha, miert oly bus ?" - idezhetnenk a bekebeli
magyaroszag ismert szlogenjet anno 1930... Hat Budapesten - itt es
most -bizony senki sem tesz ajanlatot az elomarha tozsdepiacan.
  A gazdalkodok egyre dragabban jutnak takarmanyhoz. Meg most
is, hogy a 4 egesz 8 tized millo tonnasra sikerult buzatermesbe
majd bele fullad a viragzo magyar mezogazdasag (lasd: buzavirag,
pipacs, stb.), a tozsden 8100 - 8500 forintot kernek tonnakent a
takarmanybuzaert. Az arpa ara is het es fel ezer forint felett
van. A folytonos forintleertekeles miatt egyre dragabbak a
jobbara csak importbol beszerezheto, takarmanyba keverheto
feherje,- vitamin,- es asvanyianyag kiegeszitok, premixek.
Dragult az uzemanyag, a legutobbi esetet kiveve meg akkor is,
mikor a vilagpiacon a melypontra csokkent az olaj ara.
A termeloi arak azonban mindezeknel aranytalanul jobban nottek.
Tavaly ilyenkor 105 Ft/g, iden tavasszal is csak 109 Ft/kg volt
az eloseres ara. Most 155 forintot is kenytelenek adnni erte a
feldogozok. Ennek hallatan azonban felhaborodnak a tenyesztok.
Toluk ugyanis sokkal olcsobban veszik csak at a felvasarlo
maffiak, (melyek tagjai neha eppen a vagohidak dolgozoibol
kerulnek ki), es dragabban adjak tovabb sajat vallalatuknak.
(Erre nem vonatkozik a versenytorveny ?) Ennek ellenere a
feldogozok sokszor inkabb ezt az arfelhajto lanckereskedelmet
veszik igenybe, minthogy eloszerzodest kotnenek a gazdakkal.
A vagohidak azonban mivel a kapacitasuk toredekevel dolgoznak,
ennek forditott aranyaban novekvo onkoltseggel termelnek, mert
egysegnyi arura tobb altalanos koltseg jut.
   Dolgoznak hat, felgozzel, fel lelekkel. Azert csak igy, mert
koltsegeiket alig honoralja a nagy haszonkulccsal dolgozo, megis
sokszor csak tartalekaibol elo nagykereskedelem. Nos, vegul
ott a kiskereskedelem, mely nem is olyan reg meg  a felsertes
aranak csaknem duplajaert adta a tokehust. Most mar azonban
kisebb az arany, mivel a beszerzesi arak novekedeset nem tudjak
tovabbgorditeni a fogyasztora. Szeptember vegen meg az akcios
aron, kilonkent 520 forintert kilanl serteshust is alig vettek a
fogyasztok, mert a fizetokepes lakossagi kereslet egyre csokken.
(Ez a bolti tolehus is nemreg meg 380 - 400 forint volt)!
Es hanyan vannak, akik peldaul  marhahusbol 600 forintos aron
tobb kilot vasarolnak? Legfeljebb befektetes gyanant veszik,
elteszik a melyhutobe, arra szamitva, hogy a hus-arak tovabbra
is jobban nonek, mint a banki kamatok.
   A huspiac hat egyre csendesebb, a forgalom egyre csokken.
Elelmesebb hentes uzletek mar kenyeret, sot zoldseget is
arulnak, hogy akkor is menjen az uzlet, ha majd atterunk a
vegetarianus eletmodra.
   (Lapzartakor  erkezett a hir: megis 30 szazalekkal
kivanjak emelni az energiaarakat. Ennek hatasa biztos
"begyuruzik" majd a huspiacra. Akkor viszont... de ezt majd
legkozelebb).
                            ORCZAN CSABA SANDOR