Gabe Egri wrote:

> This newsgroup is not moderated, but the commentaries on just
> about every subject by dedicated people such as Joe Pannon and
> Zoli make this newsgroup worthwhile.

OK, Gabe, let's stop this name dropping, OK?

Joe

--------------------------
And now ... DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy:
"When you're riding in a time machine way far into the future, don't
stick your elbow out the window, or it'll turn into a fossil."

In article >, paul
> wrote:

> Eva B. wrote:
>
> >David from the Netherlands thinks that I talk absolute nonsense when I
> >compare the American antismoking campaign to any other kind of, let's face
> >it, "brainwashing." How successful such a brainwashing is, and how dangerous
> >it can be if applied to the wrong cause, can be demonstrated by the federal
> >and local governments' effort at changing people's attitude toward smoking.
I
>
> Well, you can call the same thing brainwashing or education, depending on
> your point of view.  People who wnat to give a good connotation to an
> issue would use the term 'education', and those who want to give a
> neagative slant call it 'brainwashing', but you'd be talking about the
> same thing.

There is another aspect to consider however. It is that the word education
should not be used for propaganda campaigns. It distorts the meaning of
education. when you tell someone something and they understand it.. you
have educated them. when you tell someone something over and over and over
again to influence them emotionally rather than rationally, then you have
engaged in something other than education.. perhaps brainwashing is an
appropriate term, but education it is not.

joe dart

> Speaking of Gyulas, do any of you East coast types know a place
> in the US which carries fresh, recent paprikas, of the non-sweet variety,
> such as rozsa or gyulas?  I understand, of course, that nothing will be
> available THIS year, after the great paprikas adulteration disaster, and
> I have enough in the freezer to last us for nine months or so.  But I'm
> thinking of the future, because I hate to bother our Debrecen friends to
> send it to us each year.
>
>      Also, does anyone have a source in the US for Hungarian tomato and
> paprikas seeds?  We have had good luck in growing the peppers from
> seeds sent by friends in Hungary, but the tomatoes didn't make it last
> year.  There is actually a good market for Hungarian nem edes paprikas
> here in the Northwest--things like alma, cseresnye, etc. Any sources
> you can give me will be appreciated, because I'm in touch with local
organic farmers who like to be able to offer unusual vegetables at the
farmers' markets.  And, after all the recent discussion in this group
about zsir and too much meat and low life expectancies, we should give
a bow to some of the superb vegetables Hungarians can eat!
>
>       We are semi-vegetarians, but nothing beats a good pot of bableves,
> and there is an Austrian butcher in Portland who smokes pork hocks.  Let's
> not be SO concerned about cholesterol that we forget the  wonderful
> distinctive tastes of Hungary!
>
>

Oops!  I should have waited till I saw Egri's second post:

> Earlier I did some careless name dropping. I singled out Joe
> Pannon and Zoli as two people whose voices are heard regularly
> on this newsgroup.

OK, all is forgiven, Gabe!
BTW, where have YOU been all this time?  Had you been a bit more active
before, now you could have included yourself in that list of hall of
famers of HUNGARY list.

Joe

--------------------------

And now ... DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy:

"A good way to threaten somebody is to light a stick of dynamite.  Then
you call the guy and hold the burning fuse up to the phone.  "Hear
that?" you say.  "That's dynamite, baby!""

In article >, Andras Kornai
> wrote:

> Greg Grose writes:
> > Eva Balogh writes
> > > it is very possible that the American government received quite a bit of
>  money
> > > through the so-called sin tax.
> >
> > With respect, this is a myth.  Smoking costs the federal government, by
> > way of health care costs, far more than cigarette taxes bring in.
> With respect Greg, *this* is a myth. Smokers die earlier which saves
> significant amounts on Social Security. Also, their medical care is actually
> cheaper, because they are less exposed to the most expensive old-age
> diseases (having died earlier, statistically). To be old and frail is more
> expensive than to die of lung cancer relatively young, and there are also
> hidden costs to society (such as the traffic accidents caused by elderly
> drivers, the biggest risk group after teenagers) which are eliminated by
> earlier death. There is a net budgetary gain even without the sin taxes.
>
> Andra1s Kornai

bravo Andras! For saying what americans do not want to hear about their
inane anti smoking campaign. I do not smoke myself because fifty years
ago, before the great anti smoking campaign I realized that smoking was
not healthy.. as anybody can do for themselves anywhere. americans have
become some kind of non-human monstrosities that can no longer decide for
themselves what they must do.. so they have fallen into a state of
collective american hypnosis. Now the television tells them what to do. "I
must not smoke. I must not smoke. I must not smoke." It is very
embarrassing to have lived in this place at this time.. I dread what
history will write about the nation of "victims."

joe dart

Date sent:  13-DEC-1994 01:36:27
>
>Subject: Re: a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose
>From: BREEDT14
>Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 13:13:18 -0600
>In article > ,
 writes:
>
>>It's unrealistic and ridiculuos because Hungary's history and
>culture have
>>very little in common with either Russia or Serbia.
>
>of course it is nonsense to claim that hungary's history has very
>little
>in common with either russia or serbia. that is like claiming catalan
>history has little in common with french and spanish history
>or that irish, welsh, scottish history have little in common with
>english history.
>
>
Very bad comparisons here.  Catalan, French, and Spanish are all Romance
languages, derived from the same source.  Irish Gaelic, Welsh, and Scottish
are all of the Celtic family, specifically the same sub-group: conservative
branch (I think that's the name).  Hungarian is Finno-Urgian, while Russian
and Serbian are Slavic.  Slavic is Indo-European; Finno-Urgian is Uralic.
Furthermore, both Russian and Serbian is written using a Cyrillic, or Greek
based script, while Hungarian uses a Latin based.  This is because Hungary was
Catholic and the other two Orthodox in faith.  Hungary has been part of
Latin Christian culture for a considerable amount of time, resulting in
many important concepts:  such as private property, rights (nobility), etc.
These are notably absent in Russia until the 18th century.

There are some similarities, of course.  All three were recently ruled by
Totalitarian Socialist regimes.  Yugoslavia's, however, was different from
that of Hungary or the USSR's.  Likewise, Hungarians had priviliges
Russians did not.  The three were not identical (though the uninformed
often described them as such).

  The original point to my posting,
however, was to point out that the West (particularly the USA, since that
is what I am most familiar with) needs to develop beyond the catch-all term
"Eastern Europe" which includes widely varying cultures, languages, etc.
History is important, because it helps define political culture, which in
turn decides what a nation's government finds legitimate and illegitimate.
Despite years of Communist rule, Hungary retained individuality in its
Political culture.  Russia has invaded Chechen, Serbia has acted in Bosnia.
 Hungary has NOT acted in Transylvania.



>these ignormasus opinions
>
>when referring to people, the noun is "ignoramus" and the adjective
>is "ignorant".
>
>d.a.
I had intended to write "ignoramuses'" but it was late (and is again now),
my fingers slipped, and I was too tired and too lazy to correct.
Apologies.
Speaking of definitions and apologies:  Charles, after some long and deep
thinking, I'd like to apologize for hassling (oops, spelling again) you so
much about "vocal."


PS:  In English, names of languages and countries are capitalized.


                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

Greg Grose wrote:
>George Antony, please weigh in.  :-)

Very flattering to be considered an oracle, but international finance is
not my area of specialization.  My knowledge of it stems from its relevance
to development economics (of which I did a little) and readings of the
general economic literature.

In general, I agree with those who disagree with Dr Andras Pellionisz (whose
specialization, to my knowledlge, is physics) on grounds of rational economics.
In particular, I fully agree with what George Lazar has written, and have very
little to add to it.  The refinancing of Latin-American debt through debt-for-
equity swaps and secondary markets for debt is one example of a negotiated part
defaulting on debt (which is what "debt reduction" is all about), but I do not
think it is an easy path for Hungary to follow.  Especially the swaps would
only confirm Dr Pellionisz's worst fears about an international conspiracy
aimed at buying up Hungary on the cheap. Besides, the US is not as interested
in Hungary as in Latin America.

I too think that being particular about the preservation of Hungary's good
credit rating via meticulous debt servicing was one of the Antall/Boross
governments' few correct policies.  "Growing out of debt" (as I think Andras
Kornai put it) is the only hope there is, and for that a thorough modernization
of the socio-economic institutions is necessary, as only this allows growth in
close economic integration with the Western world where the solution is.  I
already mentioned the New Zealand experiment: they were indebted too and they
are growing out of it now, without defaulting on debt.

Invariably I feel lost when coming up against the kind of conspiracy theories
espoused by Dr Pellionisz.  There is no proof (they are SECRET conspiracies),
so the fact that I know nothing about them is considered just as irrelevant
as the fact that the proponents present no evidence either.  Neither do I find
it very rewarding to argue with conspiracy theorists, as they tend not to be
rational and reasonable while I prefer civilized debates.

George Antony

information purposes only) from the Habsburg list.  It seemed connected to
at least one of the recent discussion topics.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew


----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Our thanks to Istvan Deak, who has submitted the following informal
commentary about Larry Wolff's new book:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                 December 11, 1994


    Here are some remarks on Larry Wolff's new book,
 Inventing Eastern Europe: The Map of Civilization on the Mind of the
Enlightenment , which you have requested some
time ago.

    At first, I wondered about the subtitle of the work
puzzled me, but once I began reading, I well understood
what the author had in mind.

    Intrigued by the still continuing predilection of
Westerners, especially West Europeans, to view Eastern Europe as a
complementary half to the other half of the Continent, the
author sets out to investigate the origins of this predilection
and its consequences for both parts of Europe. He
points out that in the Renaissance period, writers
perceived the division of Europe as between north and south,
the south being represented by sunny,
artistic, pleasure loving Italy, and the north by the
invading hordes, in 1494, of the French king Charles VIII,
and consequently with all the "northern" kingdoms. It was the Enlightenment tha
t
moved the frontier between progressive and backward Europe
from the chain of the Alps to a line running roughly from the
mouth of the Elbe River to Trieste on the Adriatic Sea. In other words, the
Enlightenment established a frontier that was to figure
prominently in the twentieth century, most especially
in Winston Churchill's famous "Iron Curtain" speech.
The division of Europe by the thinkers of the Enlightenment allows
today's politicians and journalists, the author argues,
to refer to the East Europeans as wards of the West.
Here I would like to remark how much I admire Larry Wolff's
courage to venture into contemporary
politics through the judicious interweaving of such remarks
throughout the text.

    Once the enlightened  philosophes  had appropriated to themselves the
notion of "civilization," the author writes,
they needed a complement in barbarian Eastern Europe. While so doing,
they detached Sweden and Denmark from Russia and Poland,
even though until that time the four states figured together
in the European imagination as the "Northern Courts" or "Northern Kingdoms."
In the place of Sweden and Denmark, the Western intellectuals
substituted Hungary, Bohemia, and the Balkans.

    I was particularly interested in the author's argument that the
Enlightenment perceived Bohemia as lying to the east of civilization;
this, even though Prague is positioned geographically
far to the west of Vienna; that it
belonged to the Holy Roman Empire, and that in the eighteenth century
it was a German-speaking city. In a greatly
entertaining chapter on Mozart's first trip to Prague in 1787, the author
explains how, during the voyage, Mozart gave himself,
his family, and his friends, silly Slavic
and Oriental sounding names, thereby expressing the typical
Enlightenment belief that the Slavic world, even in its most
civilized manifestation, was "on the other side." If the author's analysis
of Mozart's views is correct, it would mean that the composer
and his contemporaries precisely foreshadowed
Cold War developments which placed Prague but not Vienna
behind the Iron Curtain.

    It cannot report in detail on such intriguing chapters
as "Sexuality, Slavery, and Corporal Punishment," or
"Addressing Eastern Europe: Voltaire's Russia," and
"Addressing Eastern Europe: Rousseau's Poland." Every
chapter is based on rich documentation:
the first few chapters mainly on English and other West European
travelogues, the later chapters on the observations and freely offered advice
of such Enlightenment greats as Voltaire, Diderot, and
Rousseau. Some of the travelogues as, for instance, that of
le Comte de Segur, Casanova, William Coxe, and Lady Mary Wortley Montagu
are quite well known, but Wolff also cites such
travelers and other observers of the East European scene
of whom I have barely even heard.
Admittedly, however, I am not an expert on the period.

   When reading the 18. century descriptions of East European poverty,
filth, enormous class differences, and more than occasional
brutality, one cannot help feeling that this contempt mixed with curiosity
and amazament which the Enlightenment writers manifested
toward the area, was not entirely unjustified.
However, Larry Wolff may have explained
that the East Europeans, too, have also always recognized
a line separating civilization from barbarism, except that their
line did not coincide with Winston Churchill's Iron Curtain
but with the political or ethnic frontier separating their own nation
from that further to the east. This perception is
charmingly parodied in Zoltan Kodaly's comic opera,
Hary Janos, one of
whose scenes takes place on the Hungarian-Russian frontier.
There, on the Hungarian side of the customs barrier, flowers are
in bloom, birds sing and a dashing hussar guards the frontier
while embracing his girl. On the other side of the barrier,
a morose Russian stands guard, encrusted in ice and snow.

    Larry Wolff's book is written with verve, charm,
intelligence, and an exquisite sense of humor. I do not have
the expertise to investigate the question whether the book
contains either factual or conceptual errors. But even if there are
such errors, it would not really diminish the value of this
stimulating book that experiments with new ways of seeing Europe and
that introduces us to the views of Enlightenment authors
in an entertaining and learned way.

                                    Istvan Deak
                                 Columbia University

I have a few questions for who ever wishes to answer them:-


1)

        Why was Hungary singled out after both World Wars in having huge chunks
 of
land taken away from her?

        Is it true that the French then, and possibly even now, had a particula
r
hatred of Hungarians? And that there was a sizeable "payoff" in valauble metals
and jewels by the Yugoslavs (probably mainly Serbs at the time) and Romanians.
 If
so, why where the Hungarians (and other nations to a certain extent) not
 outraged
by these events and let it go unchallenged. Or did all this occur due to the
attitude Hungarian people seem to have towards each other now and so I would
 assume
then as well, that "..a magyariok nem le'tezik hogy o:ssze tudjanak tartani, e'
s
leszarja'k egyma's fejit."


        I sorry, I will not be able to finish this currently as I have a previo
u
 s
engagement to attend. Anyway, its something to think about.

        I await you answers in anticipation.



        Karcsi.

I found this at the following Web site.  It lists the languages most
closely related to Hungarian.  If someone wants the full capture file
just E-mail me and I'll send it to you.  It lists all languages that are
in in the Finno-Ugrian group.


http://amacrine.berkeley.edu/finnugr/home.html


Classification of the Uralic (Finno-Ugrian) languages
with present numbers of speakers and areas of distribution


Ugrian languages
Hungarian                    14,000,000  Hungary and adjacent areas
Mansi ("Vogul")                   3,000  Russia (extinct), Siberia
Khanty ("Ostyak")                13,000  Siberia




--
******************************************************************************

"Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world.  Unreasonable people
attempt to adapt the world to themselves.  All progress, therefore,
depends on unreasonable people."  ..George Bernard Shaw

        Frank Sandor

Thomas Breed asks:

>Not that I disagree or anything, but I'd like to know, why is it unrealistic,
> ridiculous,
>and unfair to group countries like Hungary in  with Serbia, Russia, etc., as

Because central europeans like to think of themselves as still just as
civilized as the west, while they think of those to the east as barbaric
:-)   Seriously though, there does seemto be a big cultural divide between
the people who inhabit the areas which were once in the sphere of influence
of Byzantium and those  which were in the Roman sphere.

(*)%(^)%(#)%(*)%(^)%(#)(*)%(^)%(#)%(*)%(^)%(#)(*)
>@>                                                                   (*)%(^)%
>@> Tibor Benke                               (^)%(#)
>@> Graduate Student (MA program)
>@> Department of Sociology and Anthropology
>@> Simon Fraser University,
>@> Burnaby, B.C., Canada. V5A 1S6
                   >@>
>@>
>@> IF "CIVILISATION" WERE TWO WORDS,
>@> IT WOULD BE  AN OXYMORON !
>@>
>@>  Nota Bene: The opinions herein expressed are merely  my own !
                                                        >@>   ^^^^^^^^^^^
>@>
(*)%(^)%(#)%(*)%(^)%(#)(*)%(^)%(#)%(*)%(^)%(#)(*)%(^)%(#)%

Eszre vettem hogy a Mr. Lantos irt egy posting-ot.  Vissza
szerettem volna e-mailni o"t de vissza jo"t az e-mail.  Ha van egy
alliance nevu" uzlete amiro"l beszelgethetnenk  akkor szeretne'm megke'rni
hogy e-mail -jen nekem.  Kulo"nben a az o" server-je nem fogadja el az
e-mailt es eze'rt irok itten.

Charles Gal
At University of Alberta
Canada

I have low income. I live in an undesirable location.
I do not believe in god. No. 1. target for Paul, the
baby-snatcher. How about sterilization or concentration
camps?


>
> >--Not quite.  Newt Gingrich is a kook and a crank, yet some
> >take him seriously.
> >Charles
>
> Charles
> I must stand up for the other side.  New and radical ideas are usually
>  considered
> crazy, yet ofter gain acceptance once they are examined.  For example, the
>  Gingrich`
> proposal about taking babies away from unfit parents and putting them in
> orphanages, instead of paying endless wellfare to the mothers, is not so nuts
.
> If you have ever seen a tv report on life in urban housing projects, where
 drugs
> are everywhere, you'd have likely seen kids raising themsleves, or an older
>  child
> taking care of the younger ones.  For all practical purposes, there are no
>  parents,
> and the kids grow up without supervision, guidance, and caring adults.
 Putting
> such kids in SMALL orphanages or group homes would provide some of what they
 are
> missing.  No question adoption would be better, but we must provide what we
 can,
> since rehabilitating the parents would take years, if it ever happens, and th
e
>  kids
> suffer in the mean time.  ALso, hte ACLU would be all over any intervention i
n
>  the
> day to day parenting by these unfit parents.  It might be best to take them,
 but
>  I
> believe a decision can only come after some study, to make sure the resources
>  are there
> to take care of these kids once they are taken away from their parents.  At
>  least
> this radical idea deserves consideration, but only because the current
 situation
> is so dire.
>
> Paul

>
> Eva Durant in response to Greg:
> > >
> > > Oh, pish.  We are quite tolerant of every kind of crank and kook
> > > here.  Surely you've noted that in your own experience with Americans.
> > >
> > > --Greg
>
> > Exactly. Everything alternative is crank and kook automatically,
> > without a serious consideration. The chinese had similar attitudes
> > a bit while back... 
>
> Has anybody noticed how difficult is for dogmatist to catch some meanings?
>
> Regards,Jeliko.

Who is this dogmatist I wonder? I had been constructive here, not
resolting into personal calling-you-names... very diplomatic...
not at all like wicked me...

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, I do not believe any of them.
All equally horrible, unanswerable to democratic bodies.
(Look up my post dear, I did not indicate preference.)

>
> No, what I meant was that obviously you believed their explanation of the
> event, over that of the Austrians.  What was your basis for this belief?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Norbert Horvat

What year was that? In my time they must have been undercover...
Eva 

>
> Yes, they did. I knew a Fako elvtars who was in charge of the ebs business.
>
> Jeliko.

On Mon, 12 Dec 1994 16:41:34 EST paul said:
>
>Charles
>I must stand up for the other side.  New and radical ideas are usually
> considered
>crazy, yet ofter gain acceptance once they are examined.  For example, the
> Gingrich`
>proposal about taking babies away from unfit parents and putting them in
>orphanages, instead of paying endless wellfare to the mothers, is not so nuts.

--First of all, these places wouldn't be orphanages, would they?  Orphans
are minor children whose parents are dead.  Second, many of the old
orphanages have been torn down or converted to other uses.  The notion
of using large, institutional children's homes went out of favor about
forty years ago.  One would have to engage in a mass construction effort
since the existing institutions are small and highly specialized.

--Further, in no state in the U.S. can children be removed from a parent's
custody simply for poverty.  This is a matter of state law.  One has to
investigate and prove neglect or abuse.  Having done these investigations
for some years, I'll tell you that it is not as simple as it sounds.  Oh,
the obvious cases are easy, but the borderline cases are hell and one
gets into a near trial situation, although family court theoretically
doesn't work that way.  The point is that the process of taking these
children into state care would be expensive as hell.

--Now that we've spent billions building these new institutions and
more millions bringing these parents to trial, we still have to
staff the "orphanages."  Three shifts a day, remember.  It currently
costs between 30,000 to 40,000 per child per year for institutional
care.  We can cut this cost by returning to the crowded, understaffed
warehouses of the 1930s, but this won't be much better than the streets.

--Only about 20% of the children on AFDC are on the program for over
two years, so we are only talking about housing 2.8 M children.

--My overall point is that while this may sound reasonable to you, it
would be a legal and financial nightmare.

>If you have ever seen a tv report on life in urban housing projects, where
>drugs
>are everywhere, you'd have likely seen kids raising themsleves, or an older
> child
>taking care of the younger ones.  For all practical purposes, there are no
> parents,
>and the kids grow up without supervision, guidance, and caring adults.

--As a matter of fact, I have worked in slum neighborhoods in both
Chicago and Detroit as well as downstate Illinois.  I agree that
public housing is a disaster.  But that's a long discussion and this one
will no doubt get me some flames as it is, but I think that I should
reply for the edification of those who might embrace the orphanage idea.

Jack Kemp has the answer, I think.  Sell the projects to the residents.
One such project in Washington has been run by the tenants--and is now
owned by them and it is virtually crime-free, having only evicted five
families.

                        I think
  Putting
>such kids in SMALL orphanages or group homes would provide some of what they
>are
>missing.

--As long as you realize that it would be much more expensive and are
willing to see your taxes skyrocket to pay for them.

  No question adoption would be better, but we must provide what we
>can,

--You have no idea of how the adoption business works.  It takes almost
a year on average to remove custody from parents who do not willingly
surrender it, and evidence that will stand up in court.  Further, there
aren't that many valid applicants standing in line.  You have no doubt
heard that there are huge waiting lists for adoptions.  Not exactly.
There are a lot of people who say they are interested.  Many do not
qualify under the various state laws.  Many are very specific requests
that won't be filled.  My own worst case scenario was the couple that
wanted a 6 month old girl of mixed American and German parentage who
had to have blonde hair and blue eyes.  Nothing else would even be
considered.  I offered some other alternatives, but they were adamant.
Applicants think that we had these kids on tap and could fulfill every
request.

                           ALso, hte ACLU would be all over any intervention in
> the
>day to day parenting by these unfit parents.

--I repeat.  Poverty does not automatically make a parent unfit.  And
believe it or not, I never had to deal with the ACLU.  These people
would get private attorneys who smelled the possibility  of a suit
against the state.

  It might be best to take them,
>but
> I
>believe a decision can only come after some study, to make sure the resources
> are there
>to take care of these kids once they are taken away from their parents.

--See previous remarks.  The resources are not there currently and would
have to be built and staffed.

  At
> least
>this radical idea deserves consideration, but only because the current
>situation
>is so dire.

--It doesn't take much consideration from people in the business.  They
know that it is, to borrow Eva Durant's phrase "kook and crank."
>
Charles

The Culinary Arts Institute's Hungarian Cookbook has been around for
many many years and is excellent. The recipes generally turn out
better than Lang's. I've gone through three copies!

Bob...az arpadhoni

Hello .  Would it be possible for you to have the Hungarian news
in English?  I presently subscribe to your Hungarian news service but I
find it rather difficult to read.  My terminal does not have the
Hungarian accents and my Hungarian is not that great.  On the other hand
if any of your subscribers know of any Hungarian news in English on the
Internet I would be more than interested in finding out about it. Thanks.
Szia!

Joe Szalai                       Tel:519 885-1211, ex5544
User Services                    Net:
Dana Porter Library
University of Waterloo

1. Very impressive, all this talk about the American anti-smoking
campaign and brainwashing, but what's the connection with Hungarian health
education? Health education and 'sin tax' are not the same thing!
2. "Eating like a pauper is good for you." Are you serious?!! Well, you
won't have to worry about "losing a few pounds", that's for sure!
3. "People are the same everywhere." Well, we don't have to worry about
all those wars, then, do we? And while we're at it; let's forget about
economics and racial questions too. What kind of solution would you like
to use for this, Eva: a communist or a nationalist one? Or should we all
turn into hippies? Here, in Europe, we tried all those things, but (sorry,
Eva) .... they didn't quite work out. Luckily, there always is Uncle Sam
to help us out of the mess we've made, isn't there? "This land was made
for you and me..."
4. Well, the Hungarian government is known for it's effectiveness, so I'm
very interested in an effort from it to convince smokers, to disregard the
habit that they've so tenaciously sticked to, instead of their low incomes.
                                                   Let the games begin,

                                                                David.


On Thu, 8 Dec 1994  wrote:

> David from the Netherlands thinks that I talk absolute nonsense when I
> compare the American antismoking campaign to any other kind of, let's face
> it, "brainwashing." How successful such a brainwashing is, and how dangerous
> it can be if applied to the wrong cause, can be demonstrated by the federal
> and local governments' effort at changing people's attitude toward smoking. I
> doubt that it cost an inordinate amount of money; in fact, it is very
> possible that the American government received quite a bit of money through
> the so-called sin tax. While in the early 1960s one could buy a carton of
> cigarettes for about $2.30, today the same carton is over $20.00 (if I am
> correct). Most of this is tax, the actual cigarette is inexpensive. In
> addition, regulation after regulation followed about smoking in public until
> most workplaces forbid smoking in the building. Now, the same is being
> extended, at least in New York, to restaurants. Domestic airflights are also
> smoke free. TV couldn't advertise cigarettes and programs (willingly or
> unwillingly, I don't know) didn't include smoking on the screen. Or if there
> was a man or woman shown smoking a cigarette, he or she was the bad guy/girl.
> This campaign was so successful that eventually it changed public attitude
> toward smoking. Today, as opposed to twenty years ago, the poor smoker is
> practically apologizing for his own existence. Most of them are so
> intimidated that they refuse to smoke in someone else's house and when there
> are no ashtrays out, one knows that smoking around there is not welcome. As a
> result, more and more people began to kick the habit. Some of them have
> smoked for thirty or forty years. It is actually amazing when you start
> talking people who are your contemporaries and during the conversation it
> turns out that all of you stopped smoking 5-10 years ago although all of you
> had been smoking for decades. It is simply the question of a real desire to
> stop smoking. The rest is easy. Today, it is a very rare occasion that at a
> party one attends there are smokers in the room. By the way, I don't quite
> understand what that has to do with living standards as David implies; just
> the opposite, giving up smoking will save you money. By the way, I noticed
> that a pack of American brand of cigarette (Pall Mall, I think) cost under
> $1.00 in Hungary. Half what it costs here. Let's assume that you smoke two
> packs of Pall Mall a day. That will cost you 208 forints. Multiply that by 30
> and it is quite an expensive habit, especially by Hungarian standards. Now, I
> am sure that the Hungarian brands are cheaper but still.
>
> When it comes to eating, again, instead of spending money you are saving
> money. You are supposed to eat less meat and more grains and vegetables. In
> the last few months I decided that it was time to lose a few pounds. As the
> result the grocery bills have been considerably smaller than before. No more
> cold cuts for lunch, but soup and salad. Smaller portions of meat, and so on
> and so forth. In fact, everybody says that eating like a pauper is actually
> good for you.
>
> Third, you assume that people in the United States and in Hungary so-so
> different that there is just no way of comparing their reactions to things. I
> disagree, people on the whole are the same everywhere, although they may have
> a different cultural and historical heritage. People everywhere will react
> approximately the same to the same kind of stimulus.
>
> David asks who should take the initiative for a campaign of the sort I just
> outlined above. The government, of course! It would also help if politicians,
> journalists, public figures in general would stop advertising smoking by
> smoking while giving interviews, or their photographs displayed while
> smoking.
>
> By the way, Eva Durant mentioned something earlier about American tobacco
> companies concentrating their energies on Eastern Europe. She is right. The
> American market has been shrinking but the European and Asian are booming.
> And they take advantage of it.
>
> Eva Balogh
>
1. When I was talking about health education, I didn't mean
   brain-washing.

Eva B. writes:
> It seems to me that Horn is again has problem with the Hungarian
> language--public speaking is not his forte and he doesn't seem to think
> before he talks. The result is political trouble.

> Eva Balogh
Maybe somebody should send him the solgan "Engage brain before opening mouth"
Regards, Jeliko.

Imi Bokor writes:
> : Hmmm. Could be grown also. Now let me see that involves work......
> : Jeliko.

> i can just see the residents of an apartment block in manhatten with
> cows grazing on the roof-top and growing corn on their north-facing
> window-sills.

> of course the residents on andrassy ut would have pigs on their roofs
> and garlic and paprika in their window-sills. still they wouldn't
> have to add lead to the paprika.

> d.a.
Well, it looks like you need Geography 101 also, not only History 101. Do you
know how far away is Kobanya from Manhattan or Andrassy ut? Besides which we
were talking vegetables.

Jeliko

In article > Eva Durant
> writes:
>Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 12:17:52 +0000
>From: Eva Durant >
>Subject: Re: RFE/RL

>I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, I do not believe any of them.
>All equally horrible, unanswerable to democratic bodies.
>(Look up my post dear, I did not indicate preference.)

>>

It seems to me that you believe only what is consistent with you pre-
existing views.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Norbert Horvat

Choice Trading Company, Court Appointed Liquidators, have
been assigned to liquidate the following Multi-Million Dollar
inventory of computer Memory Chips, CPU's and Hard Disk Drives.
All items are new and come with applicable manufactures warranty.
Prices quoted include all state and local taxes plus shipping and
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Order                                                 Cost
Number   Mfg.       Description                      (EACH)

Memory

1524    Toshiba    30 Pin Simms 1x3     70ns  1 meg  $ 25.00
1525    Toshiba    30 Pin Simms 1x9     70ns  1 meg    25.00
1526    Toshiba    30 Pin Simms 4x9     70ns  4 meg   100.00

1527    Toshiba    30 Pin Simms 1x3     60ns  1 meg    26.00
1528    Toshiba    30 Pin Simms 1x9     60ns  1 meg    26.00
1529    Toshiba    30 Pin Simms 4x9     60ns  4 meg   106.00

1624    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 512x36  70ns  2  meg   50.00
1625    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 1x36    70ns  4  meg  100.00
1626    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 2x36    70ns  8  meg  200.00
1627    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 4x36    70ns  16 meg  400.00
1628    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 8x36    70ns  32 meg  800.00

1624    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 512x36  60ns  2  meg   52.00
1625    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 1x36    60ns  4  meg  104.00
1626    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 2x36    60ns  8  meg  208.00
1627    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 4x36    60ns  16 meg  416.00
1628    Toshiba    72 Pin Simms 8x36    60ns  32 meg  832.00

Memory for the Macintosh

1122    Toshiba    1 meg x 8 Simm Module 70ns  1 meg   31.00
1123    Toshiba    2 meg x 8 Simm Module 70ns  2 meg   62.00
1124    Toshiba    4 meg x 8 Simm Module 70ns  4 meg  109.00

CPU's

1276    Intel      80486 DX/33                        115.00
1277    Intel      80486 DX/50                        188.00
1278    Intel      80486 DX-2/66                      156.00
1279    Intel      80486 DX-4/75                      358.00
1280    Intel      80486 DX-4/100                     498.00
1281    Intel      Pentium 80501-60                   366.00
1282    Intel      Pentium 80501-66                   453.00
1283    Intel      Pentium 80502-90                   558.00

Hard Disk Drives

Seagate Barracuda Drives
1351    Seagate    ST11950N 8ms  3.5" 1.69 GB SCSI    658.00
1352    Seagate    ST12550N 8ms  3.5" 2.1  GB SCSI    899.00
1353    Seagate    ST15150N 8ms  3.5" 4.2  GB SCSI  1,526.00
1354    Seagate    ST31200N 11ms 3.5" 1.05 GB SCSI    538.00
1355    Seagate    ST11900N  9ms 3.5" 1.7  GB SCSI    628.00
1366    Seagate    ST2400A   9ms 3.5" 2.1  GB SCSI    856.00
1367    Seagate    ST15230N  9ms 3.5" 4.29 GB SCSI  1,454.00
1368    Seagate    ST41080N 11ms 5.5" 9.08 GB SCSI  2,848.00

Western Digital
1366    Western    AC2340 12ms  3.5"  340  MB IDE     122.00
1367    Western    AC2420 12ms  3.5"  420  MB IDE     136.00
1368    Western    AC2540 12ms  3.5"  540  MB IDE     160.00
1369    Western    AC2700 12ms  3.5"  731  MB IDE     230.00

Conner
1372    Connor     CFS420A  14ms  3.5"  420  MB  IDE  138.00
1373    Connor     CFA540A  10ms  3.5"  540  MB  IDE  168.00
1374    Connor     CFA1080A 10ms  3.5"  1080 MB  IDE  408.00

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To order please use a company order form/letterhead or if for
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Order Processing  Lot #1776
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Lot #1776
202 So. Broadway
Los Angeles, Ca. 90012
(213) 856 6172

If you are unable to use this information, please pass it on to
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Lionel M. Goldberg
Actuary

joe dart writes:

> bravo Andras! For saying what americans do not want to hear about their
> inane anti smoking campaign. nation of "victims."

It is out of our selflessness that we concentrate on exporting tobacco.

--Greg

Charles writes:

> --My overall point is that while this may sound reasonable to you, it
> would be a legal and financial nightmare.

Well, it's hardly sweetness and light now, is it?


> Jack Kemp has the answer, I think.  Sell the projects to the residents.
> One such project in Washington has been run by the tenants--and is now
> owned by them and it is virtually crime-free, having only evicted five
> families.

You should investigate the costs of this project a little more closely.
I lent out Frum's book, but he detailed the costs of Kemp's project,
and they weren't small.


> --As long as you realize that it would be much more expensive and are
> willing to see your taxes skyrocket to pay for them.

Oh, I quite agree.  Billions for defense, not one penny for children.


> --It doesn't take much consideration from people in the business.  They
> know that it is, to borrow Eva Durant's phrase "kook and crank."

"People in the business" are surely disinterested in protecting the
status quo.


--Greg

Here comes the politically not so correct for this list,
but very authentic account of Hungarian festivities
(secular version only).
On 6th of December Father Christmas (Telapo) alias St Nicholas
(Mikulas) visits good children. In the countryside they put
their boots in the window, as our old man specialises in windows,
not in chimneys. He brings mostly chocolats and sweets,
"szaloncukor" is also in the red cellophane packets (this is shaped
as xmas crackers in England, but small and has silver/gold wrapping
and besides being nice to eat these days - especially the "zseles"
type - is a decoration for the xmas tree. More of that later.
The old gentleman also appears (well used to) on the workplaces of
mummies and daddies (organised by the trade unions in the bad old
days - the most important functions for them!) so that was two more
packets to collect, and in school. He has two little devils mostly
clad in red in attandence (krampusz) to frighten those, who were not
that good. They carry "virgacs"  tree-branch shaped stick for the
baddens again. But everyone gets the same red cellophane bag of goodies.
Father xmas looks quite similar to the US relation, white beard,,
warm red coat, red pointy white fur-lined hat, walking stick?
So we'd waken up on the 6th with a widow  of at least 3 bags and
chocolate mikulas or boots. This happened in my childhood
(50s, 60s) and was still the same when I worked in Videoton (83-87)
but there was no "Mikulas unnepseg" only the red bag of chocs.
  On the 24th in the afternoon an antie specially trained played
with us in the afternoon, while my parents were misteriously
absent, and than there was a tingle of a little bell, and lo and
behold, there was a Xmas tree with real candles and sparklers
on the sideboard in the other room! With presents under it!
Before the time of little electric lights xmas was definitely a
fire-hazard  in Hungary, more than Bonfire Night in England.
Forgot to tell you, Jezuska brings the presents, and I was never told
that she - ok sounds like a girl, so I though that what it was!
is related to some poor persecuted creature in an old book.
I think after the ripe age of 5 or 6 I twigged the truth and with
my sister we helped to decorate the tree and we smuggled our own
presents under it.
(Just a note about my mum's szaloncukor. As those days it was
not covered by chocolate, wasn't so popular to eat, and she
smuggled it from one year to the next, and they become little
pink or yellow disgusting rocks) I forgot! An important deco-
ration was fenyotoboz (English escapes me at the moment) and
wallnuts covered in silver wrapping.
The eating is in the evening of the 24th and it is fish-soup
(halaszle) I remember times of fish swimming about happily
in bath-tubes. And beigli in Budapest, makos/dios kalacs in the
country. Beigli is from vajasteszta (pie pastry),
kalacs is proper raised sweet bread. For the rest of the days
it is usually toltottkaposzta.
Sorry if this is a bit chaotic, but you get the gist of it I hope.
This is my version, I know this is not the only one, don't
get upset anyone!  

>
> The Culinary Arts Institute's Hungarian Cookbook has been around for
> many many years and is excellent. The recipes generally turn out
> better than Lang's. I've gone through three copies!
>
> Bob...az arpadhoni
>

How do you get the Culinary Arts Institute's Hungarian Cookbook? Is it in
English?
Many thanks,
Julie Kirsh

>I thought Ceausescu was dead. Inciting for racial hatred-
>still alive. Shame. 

also

>From:         Constantin Donea >
>Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure de Lyon, France
>Subject:      Re: Book by Pacepa


>
>5) let's suppose that Ceausescu hated the Hungarians; but that's in no
>way
>relevant
>        for the Romanian people - if it would be, what about Horthy? >


Donea apparently still doesn't get it. A country which expects to join
the community of nations can not be indifferent to its human rights
record. In Romania, 12% of the population does not belong to the
majority ethnic group (akin to the US where 13% are African-Americans).
Romania's human right record, as documented by the State Department's
annual report,  that of the Helsinki Watch or Amnesty International
give enough grounds for skepticism as to whether it understands
that it needs to reform its treatmet of its minorities. Certainly, the
following does not give much encouragement in this regard:


* The report by HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH/HELSINKI, issued November 1994 with
  the title:

        Lynch Law: Violations Against the Roma in Romania

* US Department of State: ROMANIA HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES

* Romulus Vulpescu's statement in the Romanian Parliament (Feb. '92)
  advocating the creation of concentration camps for ethnic
  Hungarians in Romania

* The proposal of Vatra Romaneasca's for the deportation of
  ethnic Hungarians from the territory of Romania


Indeed, Eva Durant is right. Ethnic hatred is shameful.


C.K. Zoltani

We are eight french people, and we go to budapest in december.
We want to stay 4 days, from december 26 to 30, to visit the city.
We want to rent a flat, or a house, for 3 nights, not necessary
in the center, and for a price around 200 U.S. dollars.
So we would appreciate information about lodging, restaurants,
bars, turkish baths, monuments, ...

Thanks a lot for your help.

Jet.

--

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
| Jerome Dormoy                                                 |
|     |  Residence Mahela             |
| Universite de Bordeaux I      |  App 201  Bat C               |
| Laboratoire Bordelais de      |  2 ter rue de Bethmann        |
| Recherche en Informatique     |  33000 Bordeaux               |
| Tel: 56 84 69 12              |  Tel: 56 51 58 64             |
 ---------------------------------------------------------------

My girl friend owns an Apt. in Budapest. Its on the Pest side at the
Nagyvarad Ter, very close to the Danube and Metro. She will be visiting me
in Ohio Dec.28 to March 1.
It is a sixth floor large one bedroom with cable T.V., phone, fridge, and
very nice helpful neighbors. Also has a new washing machine, kitchen
appliances, new living room furnishings. Heat is hot water and there is
carpet throughout. Also her stay in the U.S. may be longer than two months.
Let me know your situation. We have friends close that can take care of all
arrangements should you plan to be in Budapest after she has come to the
U.S.
Thanks,
Phil Dietrich

Embassy of the Republic of Hungary
         Magyar Koztarsasag Nagykovetsege

            3910 Shoemaker Street, N.W.
              Washington D.C. 20008
                      USA

phone: (202)-362-6730

contact person by email : Dulai Laszlo, secretary
email address           : 

Hello, can anyone help me find an internet provider in hungary? I have a
friend who is currently working in the Monor region and he would like to
be able to send me e-mail without dialing his u.s. account number. any
information is greatly appreciated. He would like to set up an account in
hungry as he will be there for a little more than a year. he hasn't had
much luck except for a provider in berlin. Thanks in advance :-)

                                  Charlie ( )

I have asked one question before, regarding the
"Honfoglalas" organization. I have just found a letter
by Andras Pellionisz in the 1474th issue of the HIX FORUM.

>=======================================================
>Felado : Pellionisz Andras
>E-mail : 
>Temakor: Nyiregyhazai level betelepitesrol ( 76 sor )
>Idopont: Mon Dec 12 13:00:13 EST 1994 FORUM #1474
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

..

from the newspaper "Uj Elet" :
>________
>"Varosunkban most kozel 100 volt ormeny es gruz izraeli
>allampolgar telepedett le, akik hiteletuk zavartalan fenntartasa
>erdekeben segitsegunket igenylik. Az oszi unnepeket mar kozosen
>tartottuk"-nyilatkozta Zober Erno, a nyiregyhazi hitkozseg elnoke az
>Uj Elet november 1-jai szamaban. (Nyiregyhazan is megujult a
>zsinagoga).
>        Dicseretes egyutterzesre vall ez a segitsegnyujtas, elotte
>le a kalappal vagy mas fejfedovel is.  Csupan egyetlen kerdesre
>nem kapott (talan nem is kert es vart) valaszt a jolertesult
>(galjuli): a "kozel 100 volt ormeny es gruz izraeli allampolgar"
>mellett hany alberletben tengodo, otthontalan, hajlektalan
>magyar allampolgar koltozhetett uj otthonba, meg az "oszi unnepek"
>elott a nyirsegi varosban?"
>_______

Summary in English of the lines above -
cca. 100 citizen of Israel from Georgia and Armenia settled down
in the town of Nyiregyhaza (I only can assume they got new apartments
from "Honfoglalas", the Hungarian text does not say it - G.S-Sz.)
The local paper then says, it is all nice, but other than that 100 Jew,
just how many homeless, poor or room renting Hungarian moved into
new homes before the "Fall Holidays" ?

After quoting this Hungarian paper, Mr.Pellionnisz refers to a secret
pact between the Horn government and (???), in which pact the ex-communist
government is going to accept quarter of a million Jews from the
ex-Soviet Union, and with the help of the "Honfoglalas" organization, resettle
them in Hungary. He, Mr.Pellionnisz, also says, that according to his sources,
The Alliance of Free Democrats (SzDSz) is going to leave the Horn government
in power unless the Horn government  decides to unilaterally end the treaty
mentioned above. This information was told on the Hungarian emigration's
conference, that was held  during Thanksgiving , in Cleveland, OH.
After this Andras comes up with his own assumptions. He thinks, ones this
business
starts up, the Horn government will be forced into larger transactions,
letting further hundreds of thousands of Ashkenazi Jews into Hungary.
He thinks, this then 10% of the population will be financed by parts of the
"cancelled
debt" of Hungary, that way creating a new "internationalist bourgeoisie upper
class"
in Hungary. Then he finishes his article by two questions -
1. Is the Horn government going to sell out the Fatherland , leading to a
situation
that resulted the "Trianoni" loss of the Hungarian territories during the Kun
Bela
communist government?
2. If Horn will go ahead with this "pact", when will the Hungarian nation
start its own "legal self-defense" fight against the Conquerers ?

(You should read the original post, if you read Hungarian. To Andras
Pellionnisz -
any mistake I might have made while interpreting your lines was not
intentional)

And this is where his article ends. Obviously, an article like the one above,
should not make anyone to draw many conclusions. It is too obvious to cite
why. I would like to ask for more information, from people at home and
in the Hungarian diaspora, regarding the organization called
the  "Conquest of the Fatherland". Why do you think Jews would like to settle
down in a country, where the society is ready to explode due to social-economic
hardness of the times. I read someone's oppinion, I guess also in the HIX
FORUM,
stating that Israel cannot take any more Jews due to the Arab-Israeli treaty,
that effects the Jewish settlements in the Gaza-strip and the West Bank.
Also, I would like to ask your oppinion about the size of the possible effect
of the communist Kun Bela government on the territorial losses that occured
due to the Trianon treaty.

Regards,
Gotthard

On Tue, 13 Dec 1994 16:17:45 +0000 > said:
>
>You should investigate the costs of this project a little more closely.
>I lent out Frum's book, but he detailed the costs of Kemp's project,
>and they weren't small.
>
--I will find Frum's book.  But I don't see the cost in this particular
example, although the government did lose the construction cost, that's
true.  Time magazine reported that the government saved $5.7 M.  The
article is in the 12 December 1988 issue.

>> --As long as you realize that it would be much more expensive and are
>> willing to see your taxes skyrocket to pay for them.
>
>Oh, I quite agree.  Billions for defense, not one penny for children.
>
>--The cost really would be quite high.  As I said, between $30,000 and
$40,000 per child.  Remember, childrens' institutions must meet state
standards and must be staffed for 24 hours.  There's another consideration.
The parents are poor--so we take the children away and put them in
institutions.  Some children figure out that it is their fault.  This
is a common problem in child welfare.

>> --It doesn't take much consideration from people in the business.  They
>> know that it is, to borrow Eva Durant's phrase "kook and crank."
>
>"People in the business" are surely disinterested in protecting the
>status quo.
>
--We in the business have enough to do.  And we do have some idea of
what it would cost.  Further, most of us in the business don't prefer
institutional care unless it makes sense for a paticular child.  We
got away from care in large institutions back in the fifties because
it was sterile and too expensive.  Institutions are good resources
for particular children, but not as a universal.

Charles

On Tue, 13 Dec 1994 16:37:00 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>Here comes the politically not so correct for this list,
>but very authentic account of Hungarian festivities
>(secular version only).

--I liked it!  Very charming, Sister Eva.  Seriously.  I enjoyed
reading it.  Very nice.  Thank you very much.

UKRAINIAN-ROMANIAN DISPUTE. Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma told
a news conference in Kiev that he told President Ion Iliescu
during a conversation at the CSCE summit in Budapest that the
bilateral treaty under negotiation must "codify Ukraine's
territorial integrity and the inviolability of its borders."
Kuchma made his remarks in response to the Romanian parliament's
repeated territorial claims, UNIAN reported on 7 December. The
negotiations toward the bilateral treaty are stalled by the
Romanian Foreign Ministry's demands for the inclusion of language
that would imply a Romanian right to recover territories currently
in Ukraine and Moldova. Vladimir Socor, RFE/RL, Inc.

Hypocracy!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Norbert Horvat

This last weekend, in an Austrian TV-broadcast, the ex-national
security advisor of the United States, Brzezinski, stated that
the United States had finally gotten the message, that the British
and French Government support Serbia.

This statement corroborates similar rumours which simply sounded incredible to
me, rumours stemming from three sources, two personal and one
public (German Newspaper Welt Am Sonntag, quoting in an editorial
unnamed high-ranking German officers at NATO-headquarters,
that high-ranking British and French government officials actively support
the continuation of the war in ex-Yougoslavia).


The reason given by these sources as justification was that the
French and British Governments fear a German Superpower State taking
control (not necessarily militarily, but politically or economically)
of the South-eastern part of Europe. The sources claim that these
governments want to impose Serbia as a kind of "Gross-Serbien", as a
local superpower, to counterbalance the supposed German influence.

Such an interpretation of the French and British Government's behaviour
in the Yougoslav war would explain some of the peculiarities of the war,
allowing their own soldiers to be pawns and hostages to the serbs, denying
an aggressed country, Bosnia, the access to weapons to defend itself,
accepting without flinching the taking of the UN-protected zone of Bihac,
etc.


While I know that the French and British did not particularly appreciate
Germany's recognition of Croatia and Slovenia (These states had however
announced
their intention to declare themselves independent one year prior to the
declaration itself, so there should not have been any surprise),
the rumours above seem to me to be so incredible and wide-reaching in their
implication, should they prove to be true, that they need to be
discussed, in my opinion.


If the implications were true, an analysis of what postwar German behaviour,
if at all, could have caused such a total misconception of German aims and
intentions, is absolutely necessary.

Also, the future of Europe is at stake, because such a perception of Germany
by Great Britain and France means that Europe as a political union or
federation
will simply not be feasible, and any discussion about going any further will
have
to be postponed until this matter is cleared up.

Furthermore, again if the rumours prove to be true, if national Governments
of Europe are able to accept and further that kind of carnage, massrape,
forcible expulsion of civilians, to further their national goals, the
task of communication across borders in Europe will have to be started
from scratch, on a more honest level.


I suggest the forum soc.culture.europe as a discussion site, whereto the
followups to this
post has been set.


Konrad Weigl
INRIA B.P. 93
F-06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex
France

Eva Durant writes:

>Well, my impression on this list was so far, that humane
>considerations were nothing but liberal rhetoric...

Really, your impression is that those of us who don't agree with you (and
there are quite a few, I think, on this list) consider humane considerations
nothing but liberal rhetoric? I hate to disagree with you! Although I can't
speak for others, I do consider myself a humane person although I may not be
a liberal (in the Anglo-Saxon term of the word). Not only that I consider
myself humane, but I treat all people, regardless of education, social
background, race, equally! That is, equally decently! At the same time I
remember only too vividly how a "very liberal" colleague of mine embarrassed
me to tears every time there was some official luncheon or dinner because
"the great liberal" treated the waiters serving us as dirt!

And further Eva Durant comments on my lines in such a way:

>> Durant thinks only in terms of money when she says: "I am sure it saves a
>LOT
>> OF MONEY on less health expenditure and lost working hours/sick benefits."
>> What about saving LIVES? That somehow didn't occur to you. You really
think
>> that the U.S. government initiated an antismoking campaign for simply
>saving
>> MONEY for the capitalists and for the government? This is unreal!

>.... The U.S. government is a well known humanitarian institution, put human
needs first at all times!!!

Eva, you don't know the United States from beans! I don't think you have ever
seen it, or if you have, I am not sure how much you have comprended. The
United States, like any other country, has its faults but this country has
many, many virtues and most of its citizens love it dearly. Your head has
been stuffed full with all sorts of biased anti-American slogans and I don't
think that we will ever be able to convince you that most of that stuff is
total garbage!

Eva Balogh

Mark Nicholas is asking about Hungarian Christmas. I am no expert and I am
sure I will leave out many folk customs but at least I can tell you a few
basic things. Santa Claus is called Mikulas (pronounced as Mikulash) in
Hungarian. The name Mikulas, via Slovak or some other Slavic language, is a
corruption of Miklos (Nicholas). The name day of Miklos (that is the name day
of Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Rome) is December 6. Christmas and St. Nicholas
Day are two distinct events, although I see that the American (via Dutch)
custom of mixing up the two events is spreading in Hungary too. Or at least,
a smiling Santa Claus is selling computers for Christmas in ads! Children
receive some gifts, mostly candy or chocolate, on December 6, but it is not a
big deal and only children are getting presents. In our house at least, my
mother put a red light bulb in a lamp under which one could find the candy
and/or chocolate. By the way, Mikulas is accompanied by "krampusz" a
devil-like character all dressed in red. I am afraid, I don't know why
"krampusz" is there and what is his significance.

Christmas has more to do in Hungary with Jesus, little Jesus, to be precise.
Weeks before Christmas I wrote a letter to Little Jesus (that is when I was
able to write) and asked him for X or Y presents. This letter was placed
between the double window in my parents bedroom. Surprise, surprise! Next
morning it was gone. I was told that Little Jesus came for it and took it.
Christmas trees (nowadays rather sad-looking specimens) are not put up weeks
before Christmas like in the United States. The tree was, at least in our
house, hidden in the basement until Christmas Eve. In the afternoon my father
had the duty to get me out of the house, visiting relatives, my grandparents,
and so on. During this period, my mother was decorating the tree and putting
the presents underneath it. My father made sure that we don't arrive too
early and gave a quick telephone call home to find out how things were
progressing. (Of course, as a child, I somehow didn't notice all those trees
being sold on the streets, or the telephone call, or that father didn't use
his key to get into the apartment but that he rang the bell! All that came to
me only later). Of course, I was extremely excited and asked all sorts of
questions and my father dutifully answered them. By the time we got to the
door I was extremely excited. When my mother opened the door, a faint ring of
bells could be heard from inside the room where the tree was, and all the
lights (real candles) were on in the room and the tree was as tall as the
ceiling. And my mother said, "did you see the wing of the angel? She brought
you the tree, and she just left." And I said, somewhat hesitantly, that, yes,
I did see it, and indeed, one of the windows in the room was ajar! The
presents were not wrapped and as far as I remember my parents, the poor
things, got nothing.

I may have been slightly retarded but it was not until I was in the third
grade that I figured out that the tree was purchased by my parents and so
were the presents. Most likely the revelation would have come even later if I
had not become ill just around Christmas time that year. My parents had to
drag the tree to its accustomed place through the hallway while I was lying
in bed next door. And of course I heard all the commotion. But I was very
nice to my parents: I didn't tell them that I knew.

Another memory I have is the "betlehemesek." That is a bunch of boys going
from door to door with a creche, hanging from one of the boys' neck, dressed
up as the kings visiting the newborn in Bethlehem. They sing Christmas songs
and one is supposed to give them money. I was afraid of them, most likely
because of the fake beards!

Every Catholic church also has a creche set up and my mother and I (she was a
renegate Catholic, I was born as Hungarian Reformed) used to go to the many
churches in our town to compare the creches--some of them were, in our
opinion, nicer than others.

Christmas Day, after I began school, the family attended the Hungarian
Reformed (Calvinist) Church. Between grades one and four, the children were
not allowed in our church. There was Sunday School in a building next door,
while our parents attended church services.

The tree was dismantled on Little Christmas, maybe January 8?

I hope this will help and I am sure others will also contribute.

Good luck with the project. Eva Balogh

I've been logged in for about a week, and just want to say it's been a
relief from intense honvagy to read about Hungary, and also surprising to
read of criticism of the U.S. in comparison to Hungary,and vice versa.
Having lived in Hungary for four years (1990-1994),and having just
returned, I see so many foundation-issues at work that to compare the two
countries and the way of life in each is to compare, well, unicom with
Miller lite...ugye?  Anyway, speaking of beer, are there any people who
want to speak Hungarian in Madison, Wisconsin?

Yes, send email to 

As I have posted earlier on this group. ODIN Kft is a commercial internet
acces provider in Hungary.  I think their prices are reasonable, even by
competitive US standards.

I am not affiliated in any way with ODIN Kft, just happen to know about
their service.

Zoli )


On Tue, 13 Dec 1994, John G. Wolfe wrote:

> Hello, can anyone help me find an internet provider in hungary? I have a
> friend who is currently working in the Monor region and he would like to
> be able to send me e-mail without dialing his u.s. account number. any
> information is greatly appreciated. He would like to set up an account in
> hungry as he will be there for a little more than a year. he hasn't had
> much luck except for a provider in berlin. Thanks in advance :-)
>
>                                   Charlie ( )
>

Yes, there are several Turkish baths in Budapest, from the era of Ottoman
occupation. In Buda that period lasted from 1541 till 1686. The most
famous of Buda's Turkish baths is the Kiraly Furdo, that was built in the
second half of the 16th century. There are several other Turkish monuments and
buildings left in Hungary from the Ottoman era, although considerably
less in number than that of in the Balkans, due to the shorter occupation
period and to the special periferial-dual status of the center part of
the country. Other famous places in Hungary from that era are Pecs,
Szigetvar, Erd, Eger, Gyor etc. Budapest has several other historic sites
from te 16-17th century, including Gul Baba's gravesite ( a 17th century
dervish) , after whom one of Buda's hills was named - Rozsadomb (Hill of
Roses, Gul Baba - father of the Roses).
If someone out there from ELTE's archeology department, please, tell me -
is it still prof. Kubinyi Andras who teaches late Middle Ages archeology?
I loved his lectures !
Regards,
Gotthard

Thanks to Joe Pannon for posting Anne Applebaum's article a few days ago.
I think Joe may agree with most/much of the arguments in the article, while
I see it as an attempt to make facts to fit an ideological standpoint and
I am shocked that journals of reputation have accepted an article with such
flimsy arguments.

>[before elections in Central-Eastern Europe in the autumn of 1993 to the
>spring of 1994] in both West and East, observers had assumed that the former
>communist parties were throughly demoralized and defeated and would
>remain nothing more than a marginal political force.

These observers would only have had casual observations, totally overlooking
the fact that in a number of countries the carried-over communists were
actually in power, sometimes even without a cosmetic name change.  Neither
did the 'observers' pay much attention to opinion polls showing the
claw-back of popularity for the communist parties or their successors.

>Most believed that
>the potential for trouble in  Central Europe lay elsewere - in the
>resurgence of 1930s style nationalist parties.
>A BIG MISTAKE
[...]
>      It is now clear that the intense Western fear of nationalism in
>Central Europe misidentified the problem and that the attempt to twart the
>progress of so-called nationalist parties was a mistake.
>      Nowhere in the region has there been a resurgence of 1930s style
>nationalism.  (Although tragic and shocking, the former Yugoslavia has
>proved the exception, not the norm.

Now, "nowhere" in my books excludes even one single exception.

>[...]  In Central Europe the greatest danger to democracy
>and stability does not - and never did - come from new or the old
>nationalist right.

Of course, since most of them are by now buried or too old to be a danger to
anyone, the oldies are no problem now.  They were in the 1930s and 40s,
though, so that "never did" bit shows either sloppiness or ignorance.  In
Hungary, a country Ms Applebaum seems to know very little about, the new
nationalist right caused much political instability a couple of years ago,
and many feared that they would be a danger to democracy too.

>      Even places such as Slovakia, where nationalism has taken on a biting
>tone, the government is led not by heirs of prewar nationalists, but by
>former communists who manipulate nationalism to keep themselves in power.
>The significance of the Slovak exemple can not be underestimated.  Slobodan
>Milosevic used his base in the Communist Party to follow a similar path to
>power in Serbia, and Vladimir Zhirinovsky, or any other future nationalist,
>would almost certainly follow the same pattern in Russia.

And Iliescu in Romania, leaders of the Transdnester and most leaders of the
Central Asian x-Soviet republics.  So, the exception of x-Yugoslavia is not
such an exception after all.  It all shows that communists can turn into nasty
nationalists just as easily as those on the extreme right.  However, since not
all communists turned into nationalists, the problem is not that some current
leaders were high in the old nomenclatura, but that they misbehave now in
a nasty nationalist-chauvinist manner.

>      Today, across central Europe, former communist parties hold political
>and economic monopolies

A total misunderstanding either of the meaning of the word 'monopoly' or
the situation in most Central European countries.  While members of the old
nomenclatura have both political and economic power in all countries, they
have no monopoly on either, even if one believes that they still collude.

>[...]  There is no ideological threat to democracy in Central Europe;
>the ideals of Marxism are dead, and the return of totalitarianism is not a
>threat.

Obviously, Ms Applebaum has not paid much attention to Vladimir Meciar.

>       It is not the specter of the 1930s that haunts Central Europe, but
>the old Italian model - corrupt regimes led by former communist parties
>that rely on a semi-maffia business class composed mostly of former
>communists.

This is the case beyond Central Europe, but I thought Ms Applebaum was only
talking about Central Europe.  The "semi-maffia business class" means
illegitimate activities to me, but I haven't seen any reports of such a model
in operation in Central Europe even in Slovakia during Meciar's previous
stays in power which I consider the lowest mark.

>The return of former communist parties to power reflects the
>rise of the new economic elite.  Links between the ex-nomenclatura
>capitalists and ex-communists politicians remain intact, creating a ruling
>class that holds power in several spheres, with little room for competition
>in political and economic debates.

I would like to see evidence to the existence of that "ruling class", given
the large social mobility of the recent years.  The "several spheres" sound
like a copout: there is no way one can show monopoly power, so it is to
fall back to hazy dark hints.  The "little room for competition in political
and economic debates" were only true if the alleged power extended to a
monopoly over the media - but the media are quite free in Central Europe.

>       A Polish economist who traced the careers of several hundred top
>nomenclatura from 1988 to 1993 found that over half turned up as top
>executives in the private sector. Those numbers were even higher in Hungary
>and higher still in Russia.  With better connections, more money, and more
>property to start with, former communists have been indisputably been the
>largest beneficiaries of the past four years of economic reforms.

The only alternative would have been to confiscate the property of everybody
who in some ways benefited from the old regimes.  Hardly a democratic
proposition, given that few of them committed indictable offences, quite
apart from the impossible requirement of having a testing procedure that
separates the 'guilty' from the 'innocent'.

>       Even when former communists have a genuine interest in economic
>reform, they can have a stultifying effect on politics.  In Hungary, power
>is now held almost exclusively by a small elite of former communists and
>the center-left ex-dissidents - not necessarily an evil elite, but a
>claustrophobic one nevertheless.

There is no evidence to show why the Hungarian ruling elite would be smaller
than that in other countries that one my consider a benchmark, e.g., the US.
Even if the ruling elite were small, its rule stems from popular mandate won
in a free election where electoral participation was much greater than in,
e.g., the latest US elections.  So, the absence of substantive criticism would
indicate that Ms Applebaum's only problem with Hungary is that her people
did not elect the right politicians by Ms Applebaum.

>In Poland, there is evidence of ruling
>parties demanding Italian-style kickbacks from their friends in the
>business sector.

If there is evidence, it was not reported in the media I follow.  Besides,
is this behaviour widespread enough to be seen as the modus operandi of the
political system in Poland ?

>      The rule of small, secretive elites has a range of negative economic
>effects.  If not broken up by politicians, former secret police networks
>convert easily into semi-corrupt business structures; ex-communist
>bankers lend readily to ex-communist factory owners, with little regard
>for commercial considerations.  At their worst, as in Serbia or Romania,
>former communist parties can use their excellent organizational bases to
>suppress the growth of other parties.
>       For that reason, it is not the center-left that needs Western
>diplomatic and intellectual encouragement in Central Europe, but the
>center-right.

Non sequitur, unless one accepts the suggestion that everybody left of centre
is a scheming x-communist and rotten to the core while right of centre every-
body is whiter than the driven snow.  Reports about the behaviour of members
and camp followers of the eclipsed (centre-) right coalition in Hungary
suggest otherwise.

>Ideological considerations aside, a strong center-right or
>conservative political alternative, which is notably absent in Poland,
>Slovakia and Ukraine,

Why leave out Hungary ?

>would provide political competition for the former
>communist elite and inject an element of competition into the economic
>system.  A strong center-right prime minister, Vaclav Claus, has enabled
>the Czech Republic to privatize further and faster than any other country
>in the region.

I see, Hungary was left out because the Antall/Boross government was notable
for its reluctance in injecting competition into the economic system and
failed to privatize to the extent of Claus who is to their left.  Also, the
right proved unable to provide a sustained political competition.  Hungary
goes against the preconceived rule, so she is not mentioned.

>       Western diplomats should also be interested in the Center European
>right and in healthy nationalist movements elsewhere in Eastern Europe.

No example of a "healthy nationalist movement" is given.  I suggest that
once nationalists form a movement in Central Europe they become rather
unhealthy.

>       Across the former communist block, the growth of nationalist
>movements has led to a revival of interest in history and national culture.
>While this change can lead, as in the former Yugoslavia, to territorial
>disputes and vicious intolerance, it can also lead national elites into
>constructive discussion of once-taboo issues.  The best example is
>anti-semitism in Poland.  Since the late 1980s, public debate about the
>history of the Polish Jews has grown beyond measure.  The tone of the
>discussion may not always appeal to outsiders, and the debate itself can be
>mistaken for anti-semitism, but the fact that it is happening means that a
>younger generation of Poles will understand the issues better than their
>elders.

So, the positive value of a no-holds-barred debate on Polish Jews exceeds the
negative value of the "territorial dispute and vicious intolerance" in
x-Yugoslavia.  My value system must be distorted, probably because I thought
that there is an ethnic war going on in x-Yugoslavia, fuelled by nationalism.

>RATIONAL PATRIOTISM
>       Democracy itself may in the end depend upon the patriotic spirit in
>an other way.  Torqueville once defined rational patriotism as a moment "a
>man understand the influence that his country's well-being has on his own."
> When the nation states of Central Europe were political subordinates of
>Moscow, this sense of connection to and interst in the fate of the
>nation-state was not possible.

It is amazing how sweepingly Ms Applebaum speaks in the name of all Central
Europeans, as if she had asked all who lived under the old regimes.
Well, she hasn't asked me: I could have told her that my sentiments towards
the country and the ruling regime were perfectly separable.

>Now rational patriotism can create the
>public spirit that, together with the respect of the rule of law, is as
>important to developed democracy as peaceful borders or parliementary
>elections.  Those in Central Europe who attempt to revive such emotions
>after a long spell of suppression are to be recommended, not condemned.
>They deserve Western support, not scorn.

So, Western support for Vatra Romanesca ?

So, in all, my opinion on the article is pretty low.  Starting with an
obvious political bias for the 'centre' right, Ms Applebaum is trying to
support the cause of her comrades in Central Europe, by trying to tar
everybody to their left with the same communist brush and by whitewashing
the only political feature that distinguishes the centre left from the
the rest of the political zoo, nationalism.  Doing the latter, she is
trivializing the borderline between non-aggressive patriotism and violent
chauvinist nationalism.  Ironically, her approach to assisting the
political right in Central Europe, via bashing the centre left has the
potential to help the EXTREME LEFT.  When one judges political forces
in Europe (and elsewhere) on the basis of what they do and not how they
call themselves, the similarity between the extreme right and left becomes
striking.  The authoritarian-to-totalitarian, ethnocentrist-to-genocidal
politics and claustrophobic, anticapitalist, corporatist economic policies
that were carried out in the 1930s and 40s are now closely replicated by
the extreme left elements of the communist parties in such places as Serbia,
Bosnia, Romania, and the Transdnester.  It speaks for itself that the current
coalition government in Slovakia is an alliance of the nationalist extreme
left AND right against the non-nationalist political centre, left AND right.
Some people may recall that Hitler also started off on the left and ended up
on the nationalist extreme right while opposing the centre all the way.

So, instead of following Ms Applebaum's dangerously ignorant recommendation
to support the nationalist right at the expense of even the centre left, the
West should support the political centre, left as well as right, at the expense
of the extreme, left as well as right.

George Antony

Joe Szalai writes:

> Hello .  Would it be possible for you to have the Hungarian news
> in English?  I presently subscribe to your Hungarian news service but I
> find it rather difficult to read.

Try to read the MOZAIK stuff on soc.culture.magyar.  It contains plenty
of English language news about Hungary, both from RFE/RL and VOA.
There are also other sources of news there.

Joe Pannon