Dear Joe:

Perhaps CBC Int'l can "advertise" Canada for Tourist, business, etc. to
collect some of its funds. Perhaps it can get some "commercial" funding
as in a sponsor (minimum commercials like the USA's Public Broadcasting).

Anyway, I will personally write a letter to the Canadian Embassy as soon
as find their e-mail addresses.

BTW, I hope that you too will make efforts on your end to keep it going.
Thanx,
Peter

At 01:39 AM 12/8/96 UT, Istvan Lippai, responding to Eva Durant, wrote:

<snip>
>We should never forget the genocide committed against the Hungarian people
>after 1945 and 1956.  Hundreds of thousands of Hungarians were tortured and
>slaughtered by the communist traitors.

Eva Durant had it right when she wrote:

<snip>
>Well, it won't reflect well on your fellow Hungarians if you make
>statements which are untrue.

No, Lippai ur, "Hundreds of thousands of Hungarians were" not "tortured and
slaughtered by the communist traitors".  And I have no intention of
defending the former system, since I consider one torture or slaughter too
many, but I have little respect for those who inflate figures, because
invariably, they have a political programme, or point of view, that they
wish to promote.  And if your programme requires inflated figures, then of
what use is it?  Perhaps you enjoy shadow boxing too.

Joe Szalai

"From the earliest times the old have rubbed it into the young that they are
wiser than they, and before the young had discovered what nonsense this was
they were old too, and it profited them to carry on the imposture."
          W. Somerset Maugham

At 10:49 PM 12/6/96 GMT, comrade Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>Somehow Joe's more flamboyent soundings-off never seem to make their way
>intact to my server. I think he posted it during the two- or three-day
>period when the AOL server had run through its lithium prescription and
>the pharmacy hadn't delivered more. Nevertheless, I await Joe's
>explanation of how he can play the preening leftist when a sizable chunk
>of the anti-Slobbo crowd in Beograd with which he claims solidarity are
>monarchists, rabid nationalists and worse. "With the lights out, it's less
>dangerous..."

Ah c'mon, Sam!  Don't blame your AOL server for your inability to refocus
your thoughts after my last zinger.

As for  the "anti-Slobbo crowd in Beograd", sure, a sizable chunk may be
monarchists, nationalists and worse.  But I assume the majority are not.
So, what would you have them do?  Tell the "undesireables" that they can't
protest with them?  Would you like to see them give orders even before
they're in power?  Then they wouldn't be much different from Slobodan
Milosevic, would they?

Joe Szalai

P.S.  Was that an acceptable level of preening?

On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Istvan Lippai wrote:

> The Hungarians on this list who had to survive the darkest years of
> communist-Soviet domination know that you are lying.  They also know that I
> speak the truth.

   We don't know any such thing. Where does this garbage coming from
   about the Hungarian Anthem. It was never forbidden, never!!!
>
> So, you "lived in Hungary till '73 and again in the 80s"?  Obviously, you
> belonged to the trusted few who the communist traitors allowed to travel at
> will.  That says it all, comrade Durant (Durant elvtars).

   So did close to 10 million Hungarians. They must have been
   also those "trusted few".

> I was not so fortunate.  The first time I could visit Hungary was in 1973, an
d
> that was only after the United States, Dept. of State got the communist
> government to agree not harm those of us who participated in the 1956
> uprising.

   This is not true! And I am genereous not to call this a lie.
   The amnesty was announced in 1963 and the regime lived up to
   it.

> I do not care if the love of my country offends the likes of you.  What is
> this garbage about genocide?  Love of your own people does not require hatred
> of others.

   Are you then only preaching hatred out of habit, or are you
   just having fun doing it?

   You are only proving to most people that you haven't learned
   one decent thing in your 40 years in the USA.

                                                 Amos

At 1:39 AM 12/8/96, Istvan Lippai wrote:
  Love of your own people does not require hatred
>of others.

You are correct on this account. Calling people "garbage" is not a sign of love
.
>
>We should never forget the genocide committed against the Hungarian people
>after 1945 and 1956.

I think you have your dates mixed up here. Genocide was committed against a
group of Hungarians between 1941 and 1945. Yes, their number was over half
a million.

  Hundreds of thousands of Hungarians were tortured and
>slaughtered by the communist traitors.

You are partly right again. Thousands of Hungarians were killed, turtured
and imprisoned by the communists between 1945 and and 1956. Many of the
those who carried out these crimes were traitors. Many of the were fools.
And as it was mentioned before their number was close to 800,000, with
family...every fourth Hungarian citizen at the time. But nobody planned to
exterminate the Magyars. Not even Stalin. Hitler was not completely against
the idea. He never trusted us.

Peter I. Hidas

The communists are coming out of the woodworks.

If you are old enough, you will not swallow their communist garbage.

If you are not old enough, ask your Mother of Father.

This one does not even have the courage to use his name.

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of DANUBE
Sent:  Saturday, December 07, 1996 8:25 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Istvan Lippai wrote:

> The Hungarians on this list who had to survive the darkest years of
> communist-Soviet domination know that you are lying.  They also know that I
> speak the truth.

   We don't know any such thing. Where does this garbage coming from
   about the Hungarian Anthem. It was never forbidden, never!!!
>
> So, you "lived in Hungary till '73 and again in the 80s"?  Obviously, you
> belonged to the trusted few who the communist traitors allowed to travel at
> will.  That says it all, comrade Durant (Durant elvtars).

   So did close to 10 million Hungarians. They must have been
   also those "trusted few".

> I was not so fortunate.  The first time I could visit Hungary was in 1973,
and
> that was only after the United States, Dept. of State got the communist
> government to agree not harm those of us who participated in the 1956
> uprising.

   This is not true! And I am genereous not to call this a lie.
   The amnesty was announced in 1963 and the regime lived up to
   it.

> I do not care if the love of my country offends the likes of you.  What is
> this garbage about genocide?  Love of your own people does not require
hatred
> of others.

   Are you then only preaching hatred out of habit, or are you
   just having fun doing it?

   You are only proving to most people that you haven't learned
   one decent thing in your 40 years in the USA.

                                                 Amos

If you are a Hungarian who grew up between 1945 and 1956, you will not buy the
garbage these communists try to feed you.

If you are a young Hungarian, ask someone you trust.

In any case, based on reading the past listings, I got three of the comrades
(elvtarsakat) out of the woodworks.  I am waiting to hear from one more.

If nothing else, I succeeded in getting these people to put their cards
clearly on the table.

To those of you who sent me their encouragement and support, I thank you.

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Joe Szalai
Sent:  Saturday, December 07, 1996 8:27 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

At 01:39 AM 12/8/96 UT, Istvan Lippai, responding to Eva Durant, wrote:

<snip>
>We should never forget the genocide committed against the Hungarian people
>after 1945 and 1956.  Hundreds of thousands of Hungarians were tortured and
>slaughtered by the communist traitors.

Eva Durant had it right when she wrote:

<snip>
>Well, it won't reflect well on your fellow Hungarians if you make
>statements which are untrue.

No, Lippai ur, "Hundreds of thousands of Hungarians were" not "tortured and
slaughtered by the communist traitors".  And I have no intention of
defending the former system, since I consider one torture or slaughter too
many, but I have little respect for those who inflate figures, because
invariably, they have a political programme, or point of view, that they
wish to promote.  And if your programme requires inflated figures, then of
what use is it?  Perhaps you enjoy shadow boxing too.

Joe Szalai

"From the earliest times the old have rubbed it into the young that they are
wiser than they, and before the young had discovered what nonsense this was
they were old too, and it profited them to carry on the imposture."
          W. Somerset Maugham

Peter,

You may question my estimate of Hungarians tortured and murdered by the
communists after 1945 and 1956.  As I was growing up, I would hear of people
we knew who would disappear.  That would happen a lot.  My estimate is
hundreds of thousands.

We will never know the exact number of victims of communist terror.  Partly
because any mention of authorities committed against the Hungarian people is
met by attacks from communist traitors and sympathizers (Durant, Szalai,
Amos?).

I do not wish to be polite with those who are either responsible for or defend
those who have committed crimes against our people.  Calling them garbage is
better then they deserve.

I am gratified that you speak of "us".  Those of "us" who care about Hungary
may have our differences but we also want what is best for our people.

I did not mix up my dates about the genocide of Hungarians.  The genocide of
Hungarians between 1941-1945 is another tragic event.  It receives adequate
coverage without help from me.  Obviously you are doing your part.  I wish to
remember and talk about the Hungarians who were murdered by the communists.
Someone has to.

Best wishes.

Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Peter I. Hidas
Sent:  Saturday, December 07, 1996 7:38 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

At 1:39 AM 12/8/96, Istvan Lippai wrote:
  Love of your own people does not require hatred
>of others.

You are correct on this account. Calling people "garbage" is not a sign of
love.
>
>We should never forget the genocide committed against the Hungarian people
>after 1945 and 1956.

I think you have your dates mixed up here. Genocide was committed against a
group of Hungarians between 1941 and 1945. Yes, their number was over half
a million.

  Hundreds of thousands of Hungarians were tortured and
>slaughtered by the communist traitors.

You are partly right again. Thousands of Hungarians were killed, turtured
and imprisoned by the communists between 1945 and and 1956. Many of the
those who carried out these crimes were traitors. Many of the were fools.
And as it was mentioned before their number was close to 800,000, with
family...every fourth Hungarian citizen at the time. But nobody planned to
exterminate the Magyars. Not even Stalin. Hitler was not completely against
the idea. He never trusted us.

Peter I. Hidas

Lippai Ur:

At 03:43 AM 08/12/96 UT, you wrote:
>The communists are coming out of the woodworks.
>If you are old enough, you will not swallow their communist garbage.
>If you are not old enough, ask your Mother of Father.
>This one does not even have the courage to use his name.
>
When reading, this, the only thing which comes to mind is: Ismered e azt a
mondast, hogy mindenki magabol indul ki?

(for the non Hungarians on this list, it's something like:  "Are you
familiar with the saying, that we all begin from within")
Aniko
PS - You, Lippai Ur, are a frightfully close resemblance of an previously
encountered Dr. Szucs (one of his many alias).

PPS - Btw; I do consider the translation sketchy.  I've never been able to
accurately relay the absolute meaning of this saying in English.  Perhaps,
some other can do better?

Aniko,

I do not have the foggiest idea of what you are trying  to say.  Are you
suggesting that someone who speaks against the crimes of committed by the
communists must be a communist?  I am a United States citizen.  The Unites
States does not bestow citizenship on communists.

I believe that my strong and uncompromising statements made you feel
uncomfortable and you are trying to say something to hurt my feelings.  That
is ok.

>From your less than perfect Hungarian (my Hungarian and English needs
much-much improvement), I surmise that you are a young person who is trying to
discover her roots.  If you are not sure if you should believe me, ask your
parents or someone you trust, "what was it like to live under communist rule?"

The future of our Hungary does not depend on my (older) generation.  It
depends on the young people who live in Hungary (perhaps that includes you),
and they make me proud.

Best wishes.

Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Aniko Dunford
Sent:  Saturday, December 07, 1996 10:53 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

Lippai Ur:

At 03:43 AM 08/12/96 UT, you wrote:
>The communists are coming out of the woodworks.
>If you are old enough, you will not swallow their communist garbage.
>If you are not old enough, ask your Mother of Father.
>This one does not even have the courage to use his name.
>
When reading, this, the only thing which comes to mind is: Ismered e azt a
mondast, hogy mindenki magabol indul ki?

(for the non Hungarians on this list, it's something like:  "Are you
familiar with the saying, that we all begin from within")
Aniko
PS - You, Lippai Ur, are a frightfully close resemblance of an previously
encountered Dr. Szucs (one of his many alias).

PPS - Btw; I do consider the translation sketchy.  I've never been able to
accurately relay the absolute meaning of this saying in English.  Perhaps,
some other can do better?

Peter: At 09:04 PM 07/12/96 -0500, you wrote:

<Snip>

>Anyway, I will personally write a letter to the Canadian Embassy as soon
>as find their e-mail addresses.
The most direct route instead, would be sending your correspondence to the
offices of the Minister of Transport and Communications, along with one to
Sheila Copps - who has been quite involved with CBC's tribulations for some
time as I understand.
>
Aniko

I.Lippai wrote:

> better.  If you ever sang the Hungarian Anthem during the darkest days of
> communist oppression, you would know what I mean!  Only in church could you
> sing the Hungarian Anthem.  You would get arrested for singing the Hungarian
> Anthem any other place.
>

Well, I do not know exactly which period the 'darkest days of communist
oppression' refers, but during the time I lived in Hungary the Anthem was
not forbidden. I was born in 1966 and lived in Hungary all of my life untill
very recently (nineties). I haven't even left Hungary untill the early
eighties. The Anthem was sang on most of the holidays (I mean in school),
especially on March 15. However I can imagine that someone could be arrested
for singing on an illagal demonstration (like on March 15).

J.Zs

Janos,

You are too young to remember darkest days of communist oppression.  These
were the years after 1945, leading up to the 1956 uprising (szabadsagharc).
Ask your parents or someone you trust.  Do not believe the communist
propaganda.  You are free now to make your own conclusions and do your own
search.  When I was growing up, I did not have that freedom.

During my first visit to Hungary (1973) after my escape (The bastards were
looking for us a week after we left), I did notice a rising pride in our
culture.  Lots of homes had decorations of Hungarian folk art (feztett
tanyerok, magyaros himzett teritok).

Did you ever consider that the communists let up on the people because we
showed them, in 1956, what the Hungarian people are capable of?

The claims of communist apologists (Szalai, Durant Amos?) that singing the
Hungarian Anthem was not forbidden is a an example of communist double-speak.
Imagine a group of Hungarians singing the National Anthem in public.  People
got arrested for a lot less than that.  The only place you could safely sing
the Hungarian Anthem was in a church  There may or may not have been laws but
the ultimate authority was the dreaded internal security police.

They are clever.  When communist's talk, they frequently use words like
freedom (szabadsag), democracy (nepi demokracia), people' voice (nepszava),
etc.  These words sound good but the communists have their own translation for
them.

There was no freedom, the people had no rights, and the press was instrument
of communist propaganda.  I should not have to remind any Hungarian of these
clever tricks.

Do not forget about free elections under the communist system.  The communists
got 99.999...%.  The results were published as proof of widespread public
support.  The propaganda was directed at the West, because no one bought into
that garbage in Hungary.

I voted in one of those elections.  I tried not to.  Went to play soccer.  A
couple of communists came to get me.  They would not even let me go home to
clean up.  We went to the school (that is where the election was held) in my
shorts and dirty bare feet.  I was the last one to show up.  They gave me a
paper to fold and put it in a box.  There was a booth across the room.  You
had to be suicidal to use it.  I guess my vote made the election results
99.9999...%.

Since I became a United States citizen (1963), I have never missed a major
election.  My vote may not count for much, but I am free to vote for whoever I
want to.  It is a privilege to live in a free country.  My hard work and
taxes, combined with the hard work and taxes of over 250 million Americans,
crushed the Soviet empire.  Communism is dead.  You and I won.

You are a young man.  This is your culture and you have a right to be proud of
it.  The 1956 uprising (szabadsagharc) is part of your history.  It was a time
of unselfish sacrifice.  Do not let the communists rob you of your proud
heritage.

Best wishes.

Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Janos Zsargo
Sent:  Sunday, December 08, 1996 1:23 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

I.Lippai wrote:

> better.  If you ever sang the Hungarian Anthem during the darkest days of
> communist oppression, you would know what I mean!  Only in church could you
> sing the Hungarian Anthem.  You would get arrested for singing the Hungarian
> Anthem any other place.
>

Well, I do not know exactly which period the 'darkest days of communist
oppression' refers, but during the time I lived in Hungary the Anthem was
not forbidden. I was born in 1966 and lived in Hungary all of my life untill
very recently (nineties). I haven't even left Hungary untill the early
eighties. The Anthem was sang on most of the holidays (I mean in school),
especially on March 15. However I can imagine that someone could be arrested
for singing on an illagal demonstration (like on March 15).

J.Zs

At 03:43 AM 12/8/96 UT, Istvan Lippai, responding to Amos DANUBE wrote:

>The communists are coming out of the woodworks.
>
>If you are old enough, you will not swallow their communist garbage.
>
>If you are not old enough, ask your Mother of Father.
>
>This one does not even have the courage to use his name.

Interesting that you would conclude that Amos is a communist.  I always
thought so too. ;-)

Leon Trot..   err... Joe Szalai

For forty years, Istvan Lippai has been fighting communists.  For forty
years, Istvan Lippai has been self-aggrandizing.  The bigger the enemy, the
bigger his courage.  Because his facts and figures are inflated, I can only
assume that his ego is inflated.  Quite literally, he's a self made man.  I
have no doubt that he's spent the last forty years surrounding himself with
people who believed everything he said, even if they were "somewhat"
exaggerated.  He's now reached the point where he himself believes what he's
been saying.  Since none of his courtiers ever challenged him, he assumes
he's right.  And then he discovers the internet and subscribes to this
newsgroup.  And suddenly, his views and ideas are challenged.  He's not used
to that, so his only response is to label his challengers communists.  Good
try, Lippai Ur.

Joe Szalai

Kedves Janos e's Olvasom!

At 03:22 08/12/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

<snip>
>
>Well, I do not know exactly which period the 'darkest days of communist
>oppression' refers, but during the time I lived in Hungary the Anthem was
>not forbidden. I was born in 1966 and lived in Hungary all of my life untill
>very recently (nineties). I haven't even left Hungary untill the early
>eighties. The Anthem was sang on most of the holidays (I mean in school),
>especially on March 15. However I can imagine that someone could be arrested
>for singing on an illagal demonstration (like on March 15).
>
>J.Zs

But it seems to me that I remember reading someplace (like, maybe in Liptak
Bela's *Ocean In A Tear*) that singing the national anthem anywhere but in
church was illegal in pre-1956 Hungary. And it  would make sense, too, that
the Rakosi era would be described as the *darkest days of communist
oppression.* After all, the Kadar era was actually much more liberal than
the Stalinist Rakosi era. But maybe Istvan can tell us himself exactly what
period he was referring to. It doesn't seem to me that anything he has said
calls for such personal venom as has been expressed in a couple of posts.

People who are younger tend to forget and may not have heard about the
brutalities of the Communists which were committed in the 50's. But, as far
as I am concerned, the people who would perpetrate such crimes on humanity
are garbage, and it is not too strong a word to call them that.

What does it matter whether the goal of such people was actually to
eliminate *all* Magyars or not - when the citizens of the country might be
tortured or killed without due process without having committed any crime at
all?!! The constant insecurity, the mistrust of one's neighbours, and in
some cases one's own family which occurred was surely destructive to the
very fabric of Hungarian society. And, surely this is a legitimate topic for
discussion in this Hungarian discussion group, and does not mean that the
person leveling the criticisms is attacking all of his fellow countrymen -
only those who committed those crimes, who deserve to be denounced. Whether
the crimes were not in fact *war crimes* or only *crimes against humanity*
(which surely they were even if they were not technically war crimes) should
make no difference.

After all, Joe, you have publicly proclaimed your solidarity with those
demonstrators in Belgrade. What if the authorities start picking up and
spiriting away the demonstrators, who are never seen again? Wouldn't the
authorities responsible justly be called *garbage* - and worse? And wouldn't
they deserve it?

My two fillers worth again  . . .

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

At 11:40 AM 12/8/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

<snip>
>After all, Joe, you have publicly proclaimed your solidarity with those
>demonstrators in Belgrade. What if the authorities start picking up and
>spiriting away the demonstrators, who are never seen again? Wouldn't the
>authorities responsible justly be called *garbage* - and worse? And wouldn't
>they deserve it?

Well, yes and no.  However, I have a problem with calling people *garbage*.
I see that kind of name calling as the first step in dehumanizing a group of
people.  And once you dehumanize and vilify a group, are you not afraid that
you'll end up with the same excessive zeal as those whom you'd justifiably
denounce?

Joe Szalai

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory
gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor
yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
          Sun Tzu

SUPPORT OF ANCESTRY IN CENSUS 2000
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

This Wednesday, December 11, 1996 from 5:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m.
your presence is needed at the Census 2000 Ancestry Workgroup
presented by the Arab American Institute Foundation
hosted by the National Italian American Foundation
followed by a reception.

SUMMARY

The US Census 2000 has proposed eliminating the ethnicity questions
on the upcoming census.  This in our opinion will negate or eliminate
any potential influence of various ethnic groups within the USA with the
government related to domestic and foreign affairs.  We need inform
the new 105th Congress of our interest in this issue.

Your Direct Support Is Needed As Follows:

1--  Secure endorsements to the enclosed Statement in Support
of Ancestry in Census 2000.  Please solicit support from ethnic
institutions, religious, social, civic, research,
national ethnic public figures, political leaders, celebrities,
scholars, authors, etc.

2--  Attend the strategy session on December 11th. If you live
outside the Washington Metro Area please designate someone
in the area to represent your group.

Please RSVP the host: Elizabeth OConnell at the National Italian
American Foundation by faxing back the form (below)
202-387-0833 or call her at 202-387-0600.
> ---------------------------------------------------
National Italian American Foundation
1860 19th Street, NW [ at T Street ]
Metro Stop: DuPont Circle
on Wed., Dec. 11th, 5-7 p.m.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-
 ---------------------------
FORM:

[ ]  I plan to attend the Dec. 11 meeting on Ancestry in Washington DC

[ ]  I plan to designate the following colleague to attend
               [ ]  in addition to myself       [ ] on my behalf

_____________________________________     ____________________
(Name /
Affiliation)
(Telephone number)

[ ]  I am unable to attend on Dec. 11 but would like to part of the
working group.

[ ] I will collect national endorsements for the Ancestry Support Statement.

[ ]  Please contact the following people about joining the working group.

______________________________________   _____________________
(Name /
Affiliation)
(Telephone number)


______________________________________   _____________________
(Name /
Affiliation)
(Telephone number)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Name: ___________________________________________________

Affiliation: _________________________________________________

Address: _________________________________________________

City: _______________________, State: ________, Zip:______ -_____

Telephone: ____________________     _______________________
                     Office                                          Home

Facsimile/Mobile/Pager: ___________________________________

AREA of ETHNIC Interest: __________________________________

Fax your response to 202-387-0833

For further information please call: Helen Samhan --- 202-429-9210 or
Elizabeth OConnell --- 202-387-0600

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ cut-here  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

STATEMENT TO SUPPORT ANCESTRY IN THE 2000 CENSUS

We are Americans of all ethnic backgrounds who support the question
on Ancestry in the 2000 Census.

The ancestry question on the decennial census is the only source
of information about the ethnic composition of our nation/s population.
We know the value of statistics on ethnicity and the importance
maintaining a national reservoir of accurate and reliable information
on our society/s changing demographic makeup.

Ancestry is important regardless of racial identity.  Equally essential
is our ability as a nation to capture the rich, complex and dynamic
nature of Americans/ identity with our immigrant roots and ethnicity,
in a way that includes all countries of origin, and all generations.
Without the ancestry question, data on ethnicity is incomplete and
skewed and prevents a comprehensive picture of our country/s
overall patterns of assimilation, mobility and success.

Census data on ancestry have been used by a wide spectrum of
stakeholders, including:

1--  Educators and human service providers who use the data to
ensure that the programs are inclusive and representative of the
local population;

2--  The private sector/s use of ethnic data continues to expand
as corporations, researchers, journalists and marketing professionals
seek to identify, study and reach more discreet segments of the population;

3--  Political leaders who increasingly conduct outreach to target ethnic
constituencies;

4--  State, county and municipal agencies are recognizing the growing
need to identify and reach constituent groups beyond racial classification;

5--  Federal agencies, such as the US Commission on Civil Rights,
recognize the need for ancestry data to monitor discrimination based
on national origin.

In the past years, the question of ancestry was asked of only a sample
of the US population.  For the 2000 Census, we support its inclusion
on the short form as a subset of the Race and Hispanic origin question,
as  it was tested by the Census Bureau in June.

Endorsed
by:
______________________

           Date

_______________________________     _____________________________
Name
Affiliation

+++++++++++++++++++++++++ cut-here ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FOUNDING MEMBERS -- Ancestry Working Group on 2000 Census

Arab Community Center for Economic and Social Services
American Muslim Council
Hungarian American Coalition
Council for the Development of French in Louisiana
National Italian American Foundation
Irish Americans for Democratic Leadership
Pennsylvania Heritage Affairs Commission
Armenian National Committee of America
Office of the Honorable Spencer Abraham
Multicultural Community Partnership
National Center for Urban Ethnic Affairs
Tamayo Lott Associates
International French-Creole Cultural Society
Americans for New Irish Agenda
Arab Archive, National Museum of American History
American Council of World Federation of Hungarians
National Association of Croatian Americans
Arab American Institute
Society for German American Studies
United German American Committee
Dept. of Political Science - Kent State University
Hellenic American Women/s Council
American Library Association / Ethnic Material and Information Exchange
American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee
Immigration History research Center -- University of Minnesota
Near East Alliance
National Association for Armenian Studies and Research
John Zogby Group, International

and several additional individual members.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
Thank you.

Submitted by
Peter Soltesz
Hungarian American Coalition
> ----------------------------------------------------------

I am not repeating the last messgase from Johanne and Istvan. Just a few
comments if I may.  There was an aura of being pooh-poohed on if one sang
the Hungarian national anthem prior to 1956. The preference was some
communist song that I do not recall. My mother went back in 1974 to visit
HU (after the signing of some US-HU agreement) that inlcuded leaving the
escapees who are US citizens alone --- as HU still considers them
Hungarian!).

The trip was cut short because she was afraid after a friend warned her
that they were looking for all those who participated in the revolution
(even then!).

There were many many first hand stories that I heard about mysterous
disapperances or beatings or accidents to those who went 'home' during
that timeframe. I understand that after the 56 revolution, things became
really bad for a while -- as a sort of punishment for the revolution.

Things seemed to ease up only in the mid 1970's.

When I went back (I was brought out by my parents) I was being
ostreticzed (sp?) for leaving the country by both hte po;lice and the
border guards -- after they looked at my birth year they finally
succumbed that I was too young to make that decision by myself and
stopped harrasing me!

I also recall that prior to 56 there was an aura of not having groups of
more than 3 on a street. At times I understand that if said something
that was not to the liking of the communist govt that sometimes a person
would come up to you, identify themselves as AVO (secret police) and
ordered you to follw him 5 -1 0 paces behind as he was under arrest and
more to come at HQ.  We kids had secret names about what CCCP stood for
but even we knew that it was death to let someone hear that!

Perhaps the commies have learned to be more and more subtle about their
behavior. I think the essence of the message is that if oyu were not
there or you were not around then it behooves you to find out the
criminality, bestiality and corruption of the commies and how low one
human being can get to get power and control others.

Peter Soltesz

Hi, Joe and Everybody!

At 11:24 08/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:40 AM 12/8/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>
><snip>
>>After all, Joe, you have publicly proclaimed your solidarity with those
>>demonstrators in Belgrade. What if the authorities start picking up and
>>spiriting away the demonstrators, who are never seen again? Wouldn't the
>>authorities responsible justly be called *garbage* - and worse? And wouldn't
>>they deserve it?
>
>Well, yes and no.  However, I have a problem with calling people *garbage*.
>I see that kind of name calling as the first step in dehumanizing a group of
>people.  And once you dehumanize and vilify a group, are you not afraid that
>you'll end up with the same excessive zeal as those whom you'd justifiably
>denounce?

A thoughtful comment . . . and you are right, to a point. As usual, from my
Canadian standpoint, I can see both sides of every issue. I am willing to
admit there are exceptions to every rule - for example, I am sure there are
many people who grew up under communism - I am thinking especially the
people who have been denounced on this List as *kadarjugend* - with whom I
have a lot of sympathy. I don't think that people who grow up under an
unjust system are all equally guilty of perpetuating it, and as far as I
know there weren't the injustices under Kadar and (who came after Kadar?)
that there were under Rakosi. I suspect that the brutality of the Rakosi
regime and under Stalinism everywhere was at least partly a reaction to the
brutality inflicted by the Germans, although I also recognize the part
played by Stalin's paranoia.

However, I also can't help thinking of the truth behind my idol, Barry
Goldwater's statement, "Extremism in defence of liberty is no vice;
moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." I also can't help
feeling that there is a lot in that statement that you would agree with,
Joe. The people (I think) that Istvan is denouncing are the people who would
be apologists for a brutal regime. I think that people like him, who
actually lived through the Rakosi regime, understandably feel
uncompromisingly opposed to it and feel that anyone who fails to denounce it
with sufficient fervor is a fellow traveler.

If in fact, as I understand, it was forbidden even to sing the Hungarian
National Anthem in the early 50's, I can understand why the survivors and
refugees from that era can feel a certain pride in their national heritage
and antipathy to people who appear to belittle it. It is all a matter of
giving respect to people whose views are different from ours, isn't it?

Take care, Joe.

Johanne/Janka
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
>hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory
>gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor
>yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
>          Sun Tzu
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

In article
>, "Peter
A. Soltesz" > writes:

>I wrote a direct note to Lajos, but since most of you appear to know
>little about flying the usage of the term ROTATE in this context means
>not that the engines rotate but rather that the airplane is rotating
>about its axis for takeoff. This occurs when the plane reaches at least
>its minimum speed required to fly. The captain says rotate, meaning if
>you will pull up the nose, so that the plane can get into the air.
>Let me assure all of you that commercial airlines with jest do not rotate
>their engines about any axis. It is permanently mounted as is immovable.
>{perchance someone thinks wrongly, the engine vanes do rotate, but that
>is its natural state when it is running].
>Peter

Peter, weren't you the one who was telling us a day or two ago about the
DC-6B having wing-mounted engines and several others at the back? I'm
still trying to figure that one out. Let me try this one more time --  the
original reference to "rotating" the engines was in the context of making
them operate at take-off speed. The jet jocks call this "spooling" the
engines, either up or down. There are several call-out speeds during the
take-off roll, one of which is Vr, rotation velocity, where the
pilot-in-command pulls back on the yoke and the plane's nose lifts off the
ground. This is what Peter is referring to in his post above. I have no
earthly idea what he's talking about when he mentions engine vanes
rotating, unless he's talking about the fan blade motors on the intake
stage of the engine. You can see those turning. On most commercial jets
with wing-mounted engines, the only part of the engine fairing you should
see move during any aspect of flight is at landing when the clamshell
deflectors, aka thrust reversers, deploy at the back of the engine to
redirect thrust forward and help slow the aircraft. If you see those
puppies deploy in flight, you should immediately bend over and smooch your
butt goodbye because the plane will either crash out of control or break
up in mid-air. Happy flying, kids!

I have an academic interest in commercial air safety and am pretty
conversant with most of the major accidents among first-world carriers. I
haven't found any incidents involving Male'v listed in my reference
material. Does this mean they're doing something right or they've just
been lucky so far? I'd like to know if Male'v has experienced any
accidents in the last couple of decades.
Sam Stowe

"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:36:23 UT
>
>After reading a number of Sam Stowe's and Joe Szalai's postings, I find
>little
>difference.  Maybe that is the reason for the bickering.  Am I missing
>something?  You are too smart for me.

That last sentence remains to be seen. You haven't missed an opportunity
to wax enthusiastic about your religious and political beliefs. In that
respect, I'm afraid, you've condemned yourself to hauling coals to
Newcastle on this newsgroup.

>
>However there are some basics that seem obvious even to me:
>
>It matters little if you are liberal or conservative, as long as you true
to
>your country.

What about your duty to God and your fellow human beings? What if it
conflicts with your duty to your country? You're right in one respect --
it matters little if you are liberal or conservative. But it does matter
if you substitute ideology for thinking for yourself. Seen from that
angle, there's little real difference in your stance and Joe's. As
respective adherents of wildly utopian political philosophies, it sounds
like you two will have a fruitful future of bickering with one another.

>
>A Russian or Yugoslav communist during WWII would have been my enemy, but
>they
>would also be patriots and enemies that I could respect.

A Russian or Yugoslav communist during World War II would only have been
your enemy if you were a German soldier or an Arrow Cross member. If you
fought for one of the Allied nations, the commies would have been your
reluctant allies.

>
>Hungarian or American communists are traitors.  They are garbage because
they
>put the interests of another country (Soviet Union) ahead of the
interests
>their own people.

American communists were, in many instances, traitors whenever given the
opportunity. The problem is that after the Stalinist purges of the 1930s,
only a chowderhead could still cleave to the illusion that Russian
imperialism dressed up in Marx's clown costume had anything to offer
western democracies. Chowderheads typically don't get ahead in American
institutions unless they own newspapers (eg., Warren Harding and Dan
Quayle). Therefore, the opportunities for treason after WWII were pretty
limited. Your average American commie was reduced to sitting in Battery
Park, playing chess on a nice afternoon and waiting for the bagman from
the Russian consulate to drop off that month's rent check. The Hungarian
communists put Russia's interests ahead of their own country's for a good
reason -- hundreds of thousands of Russian troops stationed in Hungary.
Last time I checked, the rules of war hadn't changed -- when you lose, you
have to do what the other side says. Besides, didn't Rakosi, Gero and the
rest of that crowd spend most of the Thirties and Forties in Russia? Maybe
in the interests of full disclosure, they should have changed their names
to Rakosov and Geroski before returning to Hungary.


>
>What hurts me most is that we had such a wonderful opportunity after the
>Soviet troops left Hungary.  What did the members of the first freely
elected
>government do?  They lined their own packets.  So the people dumped the
>bastards and put the old communist bastards back in power.

Don't worry, the wheel always turns. Inevitably, yet another collection of
 bastards will have official sanction to screw things up. Did it ever
occur to you that part of Hungary's problem is a crisis of expectations?
People expect the government to act in a venal, corrupt manner and they're
rarely disappointed in this regard.

>
>I just know that we are not what we appear to be.  Our people are
courageous
>and patriotic and things will get better.  I believe that the next
generation
>of Hungarians has the fire that this generation lost.  Our National
Anthem
>gives me hope for the future.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Hungary's people as they are
now. They are courageous and patriotic, but they're collectively also
pretty wise. All they need is time to get over the worst century in Magyar
history since the Turkish occupation.
Sam Stowe

>
>Isten ald me a Magyart....  (God bless the Hungarian....)
>
>Istvan



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck

Balogh Eva irja a FORUM #2195-ben:

>Torok Miklos:
>
>>     Ugyanakkor a 89 ota folyo gazdasagpolitika is teljesen elhibazott: egy
>>csecsemot nem lehet a boxmeccsen az areneba bedobni. Meg kell varni, mig
>>felno es megerosodik.  Az elmaradott ipart nemlett volna szabad azonnal
>>sokkszeruen kitenni a versenynek:  az uj helyzetben kezdetben nagyon eros
>>iparvedelmi rendelkezesekkel kellett volna vedeni, amelyeket csak
>>fokozatosan lett volna szabad leepiteni.

>        Teljesen egyetertek Veled a letezo szocializmus "tervagazdasagaval"
>kapcsolatban. Abban ellen nem, hogy iparvedelmi politikat kellett volna
>bevezetni 1989-90 utan. Vedvamok es egyeb gazdasagi modszerek altalaban a
>vartnal pontosan ellenkezo eredmenyt hoznak. Erre jo pelda az amerikai
>autogyartas. Az amerikai cegek, vedovamok moge bujva es befektetoik
>varakozasainak eleget teve, egyszeruen nem fektettek be eleg toket es nem
>modernizaltak gyaraikat. A vegeredmeny: egyszeruen keptelenek voltak a japan
>kocsikkal versenyezni. Ugyanez volt a helyzet az aceliparral. Ha
>Magyarorszag vedvamokkal probalta volna vedeni az amugy is teljesen elavult
>iparat, akkor a mai helyzet meg sokkal rosszabb lenne. Marmint az orszag
>valoszinuleg, Ukrajnahoz es Bulgariahoz hasonloan, csodhelyzetben lenne.
>Szerintem is elhibazott volt a gazdasagpolitika, de nem azert mivel nem
>vedtek a magyar ipart, hanem azert mivel a privatizacio igen lassan haladt.
>Ugyanis, a privatizalt gyarak adjak ma mar exportunk 75 szazalekat es vegre
>valahara a magyar export rata kezd felfele kuszni. Lasd az oktoberi es
>novemberi szamokat.
>
>        Balogh Eva

Magyarorszagnak a "letezett" (es nem a "letezo", mivel hal'Istennek mar nem
letezik) "szocializmus" (igy, idezojelben, mert nem volt az) bukasa utani
gazdasagi helyzetet nem lehet a 70-es es 80-as evak Amerikaehoz hasonlitani.
 Az amerikai autogyartasnak nem volt szuksege vedovamra, mivel nem egy
gyerekcipoben jaro, meg fejletlen iparrol volt szo, hanem egy
elkenyelmesedett, sajat piacat biztosra vevo, oligopolista iparagrol, ahol,
szamottevo konkurrencia hianyaban, elhanyagoltak
a piac igenyeit.  Ennek kovetkezteben a nemet, japan stb. autogyartok jokora
darabot kikanyaritottak maguknak az amerikai autopiacbol.  Amikor az amerikai
cegek erre termekeik korszerusitesevel es a minoseg javitasaval reagaltak, a
vevok jo reszet sikerult is visszahoditaniuk.

Ahol viszont jelen vannak a vedvamok Amerikaban, ott nem a termelo, hanem a
fogyaszto a vesztes.  Ilyen pl. a foldimogyoro (peanut) farmerek vedettsege,
aminek kovetkezteben a termek ara magasabb, mint a hasonlo minosegu afrikaie,
amihez az amerikai vasarlo nem tud hozzajutni.  Az amerikai mezogazdasagi
termekek egesz sorat idezhetnem a vedvam/importkorlatozas illusztralasakent.

Amirol szerintem Torok Miklos beszelt -- a zsenge, de potencialisan
versenykepes magyar cegek idoleges vedelme -- egeszen mas eset.  Abban
teljesen igaza van.

Ferenc

At 03:05 PM 12/8/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

<snip>
>A thoughtful comment . . . and you are right, to a point. As usual, from my
>Canadian standpoint, I can see both sides of every issue. I am willing to
>admit there are exceptions to every rule - for example, I am sure there are
>many people who grew up under communism - I am thinking especially the
>people who have been denounced on this List as *kadarjugend* - with whom I
>have a lot of sympathy. I don't think that people who grow up under an
>unjust system are all equally guilty of perpetuating it, and as far as I
>know there weren't the injustices under Kadar and (who came after Kadar?)
>that there were under Rakosi. I suspect that the brutality of the Rakosi
>regime and under Stalinism everywhere was at least partly a reaction to the
>brutality inflicted by the Germans, although I also recognize the part
>played by Stalin's paranoia.

My parents were born before World War I.  They lived through that, and
survived World War II.  They lived through the Rakosi years and deceided to
leave Hungary, with four young children, during the 1956 Revolution.
Obviously, in Canada, they were free to talk to us, their children, and
their friends, about anything they wanted.  Do you know what they talked
about the most?  World War II!  The Rakosi years were hardly mentioned.  My
parents lived in Budapest during World War II, and from the stories they
told us about hunger, the nightly air raid sirens, the bombing, and about a
nazi soldier holding the barrel of his gun to my mother's stomach when she
was pregnant with my oldest brother, it was clear that those were the images
that were seared into their minds.  What came after that was survivable, and
they chose not to set up an anti-communist cottage industry either in
Hungary or in Canada.  Others did just that, and thrived on it for a long
time.  That was their business.

>However, I also can't help thinking of the truth behind my idol, Barry
>Goldwater's statement, "Extremism in defence of liberty is no vice;
>moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." I also can't help
>feeling that there is a lot in that statement that you would agree with,
>Joe.

I have no problem with the above even though I never liked Goldwater.

>The people (I think) that Istvan is denouncing are the people who would
>be apologists for a brutal regime. I think that people like him, who
>actually lived through the Rakosi regime, understandably feel
>uncompromisingly opposed to it and feel that anyone who fails to denounce it
>with sufficient fervor is a fellow traveler.

I have a large extended family and not one was imprisoned or tortured by the
communists.  I only know of one relative who was captured, and eventually
killed, for illegal political activities.  And his "crime" was handing out
pro-communist leaflets in Budapest, before World War II.

Joe Szalai

Mr. Stowe,

I am now positive that you are too smart for me.  It seems that you can make a
straw man and strike it down, just to make an argument.  Any kind of argument.
 I do not know who you are and where you are coming from.  I assume that you
are an American interested in Hungarian affairs.

I am a United States citizen and supported Senator Dole for president.  One of
the things I admire about Senator Dole is his honorable service in the United
States infantry during WWII.  He was almost killed fighting the Nazis in
Italy.

The Hungarian soldiers who died in Russia and Yugoslavia during WWII were not
Nazis or member of Arrow Cross.  The Hungarians who died in that senseless war
were my brothers and I honor their memory..  (It is true that victory for
Hitler could have been equally disastrous for Hungary.  Did you know that
Hungary was trying desperately to stay out of WWII?  Most Hungarians are
fundamentally opposed to both fascism and communism.)  I despise the Nazis
just as much as I despise the communists, but there are no former Nazi
murderers and their sympathizers on this list who lie about the terrible
crimes committed against our people.

I doubt if I will spend much time bickering with Comrade Szalai.  I consider
the comparison with Szalai an insult, but since I compared you with him first,
there is little I can complain about.

Best wishes.

Istvan Lippai
----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Sam Stowe
Sent:  Sunday, December 08, 1996 9:19 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:36:23 UT
>
>After reading a number of Sam Stowe's and Joe Szalai's postings, I find
>little
>difference.  Maybe that is the reason for the bickering.  Am I missing
>something?  You are too smart for me.

That last sentence remains to be seen. You haven't missed an opportunity
to wax enthusiastic about your religious and political beliefs. In that
respect, I'm afraid, you've condemned yourself to hauling coals to
Newcastle on this newsgroup.

>
>However there are some basics that seem obvious even to me:
>
>It matters little if you are liberal or conservative, as long as you true
to
>your country.

What about your duty to God and your fellow human beings? What if it
conflicts with your duty to your country? You're right in one respect --
it matters little if you are liberal or conservative. But it does matter
if you substitute ideology for thinking for yourself. Seen from that
angle, there's little real difference in your stance and Joe's. As
respective adherents of wildly utopian political philosophies, it sounds
like you two will have a fruitful future of bickering with one another.

>
>A Russian or Yugoslav communist during WWII would have been my enemy, but
>they
>would also be patriots and enemies that I could respect.

A Russian or Yugoslav communist during World War II would only have been
your enemy if you were a German soldier or an Arrow Cross member. If you
fought for one of the Allied nations, the commies would have been your
reluctant allies.

>
>Hungarian or American communists are traitors.  They are garbage because
they
>put the interests of another country (Soviet Union) ahead of the
interests
>their own people.

American communists were, in many instances, traitors whenever given the
opportunity. The problem is that after the Stalinist purges of the 1930s,
only a chowderhead could still cleave to the illusion that Russian
imperialism dressed up in Marx's clown costume had anything to offer
western democracies. Chowderheads typically don't get ahead in American
institutions unless they own newspapers (eg., Warren Harding and Dan
Quayle). Therefore, the opportunities for treason after WWII were pretty
limited. Your average American commie was reduced to sitting in Battery
Park, playing chess on a nice afternoon and waiting for the bagman from
the Russian consulate to drop off that month's rent check. The Hungarian
communists put Russia's interests ahead of their own country's for a good
reason -- hundreds of thousands of Russian troops stationed in Hungary.
Last time I checked, the rules of war hadn't changed -- when you lose, you
have to do what the other side says. Besides, didn't Rakosi, Gero and the
rest of that crowd spend most of the Thirties and Forties in Russia? Maybe
in the interests of full disclosure, they should have changed their names
to Rakosov and Geroski before returning to Hungary.


>
>What hurts me most is that we had such a wonderful opportunity after the
>Soviet troops left Hungary.  What did the members of the first freely
elected
>government do?  They lined their own packets.  So the people dumped the
>bastards and put the old communist bastards back in power.

Don't worry, the wheel always turns. Inevitably, yet another collection of
 bastards will have official sanction to screw things up. Did it ever
occur to you that part of Hungary's problem is a crisis of expectations?
People expect the government to act in a venal, corrupt manner and they're
rarely disappointed in this regard.

>
>I just know that we are not what we appear to be.  Our people are
courageous
>and patriotic and things will get better.  I believe that the next
generation
>of Hungarians has the fire that this generation lost.  Our National
Anthem
>gives me hope for the future.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Hungary's people as they are
now. They are courageous and patriotic, but they're collectively also
pretty wise. All they need is time to get over the worst century in Magyar
history since the Turkish occupation.
Sam Stowe

>
>Isten ald me a Magyart....  (God bless the Hungarian....)
>
>Istvan



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck

At 04:18 PM 12/8/96 GMT, Sam Stowe, responding to Istvan Lippai, wrote:

<snip>
>Seen from that
>angle, there's little real difference in your stance and Joe's. As
>respective adherents of wildly utopian political philosophies, it sounds
>like you two will have a fruitful future of bickering with one another.

utopia
1.      a. Often Utopia. An ideally perfect place, especially in its social,
political, and moral aspects. b. A work of fiction describing a utopia.
2.      An impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform.

Ok, Sam.  Since you're in the habit of using "utopia" in a negative sense,
tell me what it is that I've ever written that seemed impractical or
idealistic to you.

Joe Szalai

"Ideals are like stars; you will not succeed in touching them with your
hands. But like the seafaring man on the desert of waters, you choose them
as your guides, and following them you will reach your destiny."
         Carl Schurz

 on Dec  6 22:45:55 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #869:
                      <to Joe Szalai>
>I await Joe's
>explanation of how he can play the preening leftist when a sizable chunk
>of the anti-Slobbo crowd in Beograd with which he claims solidarity are
>monarchists, rabid nationalists and worse.

>Sam Stowe

That is what the communists usually say when the people rise up against them.
 It is sad to see a supposedly knowledgeable American regurgitating such
utter hogwash.

Ferenc

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Ah c'mon, Sam!  Don't blame your AOL server for your inability to refocus
>your thoughts after my last zinger.

Joe, let me be clear -- the dog ate my repost.

>
>As for  the "anti-Slobbo crowd in Beograd", sure, a sizable chunk may be
>monarchists, nationalists and worse.  But I assume the majority are not.
>So, what would you have them do?  Tell the "undesireables" that they
can't
>protest with them?  Would you like to see them give orders even before
>they're in power?  Then they wouldn't be much different from Slobodan
>Milosevic, would they?

Them what lies down with dogs wakes up with fleas. Running a democratic
revolution whose ranks include folks with distinctly undemocratic ideas
and agendas is an invitation to yet another one of those dreary Baltic
kleptocracies which can only end in armed American intervention when the
Euroweenies wimp out again or absolute indifference to the suffering of
those college students who are promptly shot down like dogs in the streets
after their erstwhile "comrades" seize control of power. Either way, it
will provide plenty of ammunition for you and Darren Purcell to float
conspiracy theories about how the American government is using the turmoil
to prop up the dictator de jour in Beograd or abdicating its moral
responsibility to bring peace, love and understanding to the region.
Sam Stowe
>
>Joe Szalai



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck

 on Dec  7 10:50:26 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #869:

>At 01:36 PM 12/7/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

><snip all the hatred)
>>Isten ald me a Magyart....  (God bless the Hungarian....)
>>
>>Istvan


>Lippai ur,
>
>"Isten a'ld meg a Magyart..." is how the Hungarian anthem starts!
>                 ^^^
>

No, Szalai ur; the correct version goes:

"Isten, a'ldd meg a magyart"          (with two "d" and one lowercase "m"
characters)
               ^             ^
One should know how to spell before correcting others...

>Have you ever thought of getting a life
>that didn't revolve around god and love of country?

>Joe Szalai

I don't know about Canadians but most Americans would find your remark at
least weird.  Yes, there are plenty of people for whom God and country are
important, and maybe even central points in their lives.  Why does it bother
you?  I would prefer such people any day over those whose life revolves
around love of money or power.

Ferenc

 on Dec  7 08:07:00 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #869:

>Well perhaps Aniko rather discuss me instead of the issue. Let me
re-iterate:
>The Hungarian police methods giving tikcets and collecting funds
>on-the-spot is wrong and corrupt. Care to address that issue Aniko or you
>rather re-route your thinking again?
>Peter

I don't know if it is a sign of corruption or not, but in my personal
experience the offending motorist is given a choice: either he pays the fine
on the spot, or he is given a summons which means a court appearance and a
heftier fine if convicted.  In every case when the motorist pays the fine he
gets a numbered receipt.  I assume the policeman has to account for receipts
he hands out as well for the funds collected.  Personally I always chose to
pay on the spot, on the few occasions when I was fined.  Of course I didn't
like it, just like I don't like to pay fines (and collect points) here in the
US.

Ferenc

Yes, I know that some of the police are probably corrupt, but I think the
guilty ones are probably higher up than the lowly patrolman on the beat.  The
fact that not one of the dozens of shootings and hand-grenade explosions
during the last few months in Budapest yielded even one arrest makes me
highly suspicious of mob connections in high places in Hungarian law
enforcement under the present government.

some comments about the turkish:
sakIn (should be sakin - sa:kin), sahra, tekmil ciltlemek (from cilt -
j^ild), kuvvet (from quwwa(t), however turkish kol - qol is relevant)
are loanwords from arabic. nam, huysuzluk (from huy , xu:y) are
loanwrods from persian.
for ol- (to become, be) most turkic languages have bol- for o"ksu"rmek
 - o"g~u"rmek (to retch, vomit) would be more relevant. s^olpan is
qIrgIz, but old turkish has c^olpan, for elma many dialects of turkish
have alma.

(note:newsgroup list truncated, do not respond without restoring original
list)

At 07:04 AM 08/12/96 UT, you wrote:
>Aniko,
>
>I do not have the foggiest idea of what you are trying  to say.
I said, that you frightfully resemble an previously encountered Dr. Szucs.
Your last comment prompted the association with the Hungarian saying.

>Are you suggesting that someone who speaks against the crimes of committed
>by the communists must be a communist?
If one adopts that sayings' philosophy as their hardline rule for life; and
if it said "minenki allandoan, magabol indul ki" your above summation would
be correct. I don't think that either was stated.   No - I was not
associating your hatred towards communism with the philosophy of the saying.
I was only associating it with your resemblence to Dr. Szucs - and your last
comment aimed at another.

>I am a United States citizen.  The >United States does not bestow
citizenship on >communists.
Are you saying, that in all of the United States, there is not one American
citizen, who is inclined towards communism?

>I believe that my strong and uncompromising statements made you feel
>uncomfortable and you are trying to say something to hurt my feelings.  That
>is ok.
Yes and no.  No, I am not trying to hurt your feelings.  Your strong
statements, are not statements.  They are strong accusations based on
nothing at all.  And yes, I find them extremely demeaning, unfair and
totally unecessary.  Since all that, could leave one feeling uncomfortable,
your assumption in this instance is bang on.  You, not unlike Dr. Szucs,
possess an uncanny ability to pick up only on that, which is relevant to
force your point of view and go for the throat with it.  In this instance,
accusing people of being communists.  That, is, a pretty powerful accusation
in my eyes.  What on earth gives you the right to do so? And, based on what?
The fact that they disagree with your point of view?  Your claimed facts?
Their names are not obviously Hungarian?  What?

>From your less than perfect Hungarian (my Hungarian and English needs
>much-much improvement),
That's ok.  Yesterday, you did not even acknowledge me as being Hungarian -
as judged by one, previous post, I believe you stated.  Today, at least I'm
Hungarian in your eyes. We are already moving in a positive direction.  By
the way; you also claimed, that you don't make a habit of preaching?

>I surmise that you are a young person who is trying to
>discover her roots.
Gee!  Thank you for the compliment.

>If you are not sure if you should believe me, ask your
>parents or someone you trust, "what was it like to live under communist rule?"
Here you go again - making assumptions.  What makes you so sure, that I did
not live under the communist rule?

<snip>
The bottom line is, I am truly sad to hear of anyone, who has had to live
through any amount of horror in their lives, including the ordeal of '56.
But, I don't think, that you are the sole surviving oldest member on this
list either, who has lived through and survived horrors of comparable
significance - some were likely forced to endure even beyond that, of your
own.  They do not, nor have they in the past, accuse other members
beligerently and unjustly.  They tell their stories, and they live their
lives until they tell another one.  And for those, I have the highest
respect and compassion of all.   And, I might add, that I find it an honour
to be amongst the ones, they share their memories of hell with.  You on the
other hand, come in here full force - not just to tell your story, but to
ram it down everyone's throat - and already, after a short time, it's become
crystal clear, that God help those, who dare to have a mind of their own and
disagree with you! Even if, they are in a position of higher knowledge
regarding the events/facts/ etc as described by you.  Something's wrong with
this picture Istvan!!!  Really wrong!

Regards,
Aniko



>Istvan
>
>----------
>From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Aniko Dunford
>Sent:  Saturday, December 07, 1996 10:53 PM
>To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
>Subject:  Re: To everybody
>
>Lippai Ur:
>
>At 03:43 AM 08/12/96 UT, you wrote:
>>The communists are coming out of the woodworks.
>>If you are old enough, you will not swallow their communist garbage.
>>If you are not old enough, ask your Mother of Father.
>>This one does not even have the courage to use his name.
>>
>When reading, this, the only thing which comes to mind is: Ismered e azt a
>mondast, hogy mindenki magabol indul ki?
>
>(for the non Hungarians on this list, it's something like:  "Are you
>familiar with the saying, that we all begin from within")
>Aniko
>PS - You, Lippai Ur, are a frightfully close resemblance of an previously
>encountered Dr. Szucs (one of his many alias).
>
>PPS - Btw; I do consider the translation sketchy.  I've never been able to
>accurately relay the absolute meaning of this saying in English.  Perhaps,
>some other can do better?
>
>