This morning I made a lepeny. I have this cookbook, "The Cuisine of
Hungary", by George Lang. The recipe he gives is very simple, and
works very well. Here's his comment after the recipe:

"Summer luncheons of my childhood often ended with this dessert...
for me it's all that a cake should be.

"Since earliest times lepeny has been one of the most popular
Hungarian cakes, whether made with fruits, cottage cheese, nuts,
coffee, poppyseeds, jam or, as in the Middle Ages, with candied
fruits, ginger, and saffron."

Now, his recipe calls for cherries, sprinkled over the batter just
before it's baked. The cake rises up and almost covers them. I
didn't have any cherries, but I diced a couple of apricots and put
them in instead, and it was really tasty.

My question is: did anybody reading this enjoy lepeny as a kid, or
for that matter, are you eating some now? Are there lots of variations
on this? What other fruits and additions have you seen?

Thanks in advance; I'm feeling very full and satisfied right now.

--
 *********************************************************************
     Paranoia! Even Goya...                   
       couldn't draw ya... --T. Pynchon       Minneapolis MN USA
 *********************************************************************
                   >>>Tour d'Ivoire: 612-425-0554<<<

Kedves TIPPelok!

	Ket het mulva, elegge varatlanul, 3 eves marylandi tartozkodas utan, 
haza kell koltoznom. Nincs tul sok holmim, de vannak konyveim es ruhaim, 
amit haza szeretnek vinni. Hogy a legolcsobb elkuldeni, 200-300 fontnyi 
mennyiseget? Repulon "excess luggage"-kent? Postan? Valamilyen koltozteto 
cegnel? Kerlek, irjatok, ha tudtok valami jo megoldast, ceg nevet, cimet. A 
holmiknak nem sietos, inkabb menjenek lassan, olcson, de biztosan. 
Elore is koszonom a tanacsokat. 

				Lazar Boglarka

A rak kora hajnalban hatalmas dorombolesre ebred. Kicsoszog, kinyitja az 
ajtot. A kuszobon egy felig elszivott cigaretta es egy odaegett piritos ul.
- Hat ti kik vagytok - kerdezi a rak.
- Mi vagyunk a rakkeltok!

Subject: Re: no comment! with a comment
From: Gabor Barsai, 
Date: 18 Jul 1995 13:22:35 GMT
In article > Gabor
Barsai,  writes:
>In article >,
>ibokor > wrote:
>>Gabor Barsai ) wrote:
>>: In article >,
>>: ibokor > wrote:
>>: >What  wrote reminded me of an examination
>>:
>>: Well, what you write usually reminds me of my dear friend, Mihai
Octavian:
>>
>>Who is Mihai Octavian?  What makes him so memorable?
>
>Please. If you read the newsgroup once in a while, you'd know. I
really don't
>want to bore the rest of the people reading scm, so if you want to
know, maybe
>you can mail me, or read his articles.
>

I do read the newsgroup at least once in a while, but 
I do not read every posting or every thread. Nor am I
blessed with a pachyderm's reputed memory, so I *still*
don't know. 

Your response to a simple direct question is anything
but simple and direct. I suspect that your evasion is
longer than a brief explanation.

As for boring people on scm, I suspect that this exchange 
is as boring (or as interesting) as the one you wish to 
avoid.



>
>>: always full of contempt and hate, always eager to blame
Hungarians for all
>>: your problems.
>>
>>I'm afraid that in such a case, the similarity is more in your
"imagination"
>>than in fact. I am not aware of having substantial problems, nor
do I
>>recall *ever* having blamed "Hungarians" for the problems I've
actually had.
>
>OK.
>
>>So I'd be interested to here from you --- or anyone else who is as
>>impeccably informed as you seem to be about my psyche ---  to know:
>>
>>1. What problems I've had or do have.
>>
>>2. How when and where have I blamed "Hungarians" for them.
>
>So your calling Hungarian society racist was in my imagination? I
guess you
>should take a remedial course in English. I was using
extrapolation, but if
>somebody with an obviously Hungarian sounding name calls Hungarians
racists, it
>usually isn't a sign of love.

Again, you have evaded mysimple direct question.

I doubt that any remedial class in English is necessary, for
claiming that racialism is alive and well in Hungarian society, 
that it is one of the threads in the history of Hungary is in no
way shape or form *blaiming* Hungary for anything. 
To read blame into it is to add two additional assumptions
and to apply a syllogism.

Assumption 1:   Racialism is reprehensible.
Assumption 2:   Reprehensibility is to be blamed.

Syllogism:  Racialism abounds in Hungary. Now appeal to additional
assumptions 1 and 2.

Even if you argue this, I don't see how it has anything to do with
what problems you claim I have I have. The only problems I am aware
of having are a medical one with no complete diagnosis available
yet and one connected with my work.

I do not see what "love" or "hate" has to do with "blame".

Your extrapolation is specious and false. My attachment to
Hungarian background does not blind me to the flaws I see in
"Hungarian culture" or "Hungarian society". I am sure that
the learned gentlemen of this group do not hold against
Hunagry or Hungarian society that it was part of the Warsaw
Pact or allied with Germany in World War II. These unpleasant
facts will not cease to be true no matter how much any of
us wish it otherwise. This is just the same as the fact that
any German who wishes to take pride in Goethe and Beethoven
must also come to terms with Hitler and Bismarck.

The same is true in Australia. I have lived here a while.
I and my ancestors were on a different continent as the
indigenous peoples here were ruthlessly slaughtered. We thus
bear none of the responsiblity for the carnage and blatant
racialism. We are neverthelss burdenend by it, for our
being here, our living here is, in part at least, a consequence
of these deeds. Thus I try here to do what I can to counter
racialiam, whether it be directed against the Kooris and Murris
and Islanders or against Asian immigrants or against such
exotic beasts as immigrants from uHngary.

My postings have been directed against the denial of documented
facts about Hungary's and the attempts to whitewash it. The problem
I have had is that the general principles which seem to underly
numerous extravagant claims made by the learned gentlemen for
instance, if applied genrally would have consequences they clearly
seem intent on avoiding.



>
>>:
>>: >d.A.
>>:
>>: So what does this d.A. stand for?
>>
>>I have already explained that, so if you can gain access to the
>>archives, it should be relatively easy to find the explanation.
>>If that does not work, I shall gladly explain again, even at the
>>risk of boring those who have already seen it.
>
>Please. Explain it to me. I can imagine a couple of things it
stands for.
>I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I never
read that
>post.
>

Well, I'm sorry. I have no horse, much less a Mr Ed.

I spent some time in Switzerland, where I was repeatedly
accused of the most heinous crime known in that country,
viz., of being "a foreigner". I furiously protested my
innocence, for it is blatantly clear that I am *not* a
foreigner, I was merely in a foreign country. Anyway, 
the German for "the foreigner" is "der Auslaender", which
is conveniently abbreviated to "d.A." A synonym for
"der Auslaender" which I heard frequently is "das Arschloch",
which is rendered into English by "the arsehole". Fortuitously,
it is also abbreviated by "d.A." This latter epithet is one
I find myself using to refer to myself, especially when I bother 
to provide detailed answers to people who evade answering simple 
direct questions.

>
>>: Please forgive this ignorance of mine,
>>
>>This is hardly an instance of ignorance. "Innocence is not knowing.
>>There is nothing wrong with that. Ignorance is not wanting to know,
>>and that is a crime". Julius Sumner Miller once said th2at, or
something
>>very like it.
>
>Maybe. According to the New Expanded Webster's Dictionary (edited
by R.F.
>Patterson, M.A., D.Litt.) 1989 Edition, (ISBN 0-938261-79-X) p. 167:
>
>Ignorance: state of being illiterate, uninformed, or uneducated,
want of
>knowledge.
>Ignorant: wanting knowledge or information.
>
>Innocence is something else (p. 178):
>quality of being innocent, freedom from  crime or guilt, simplicity
of heart.
>Innocent: not noxious, or hurtful, free from guilt, simple hearted,
guileless.
>Free from guilt or harm, a natural or simpleton.
>
>Maybe I am a simpleton, I don't know, I hope so. But I know I am
ignorant to a 
>lot of things (unlike you, I presume).

Julius Sumner Miller was trying to elucidate the difference between
the state of being an ignoramus and the fact of being innocent (as
an antonym of sophisticated). If you do not understand his 
statement, then perhaps the advice you so readily proffered is one
you should heed yourself.


>
>>You may in fact be ignorant. I do not know. I tend to presume
>>otherwise, unless I have reason to believe so. But you are
>>certainly better placed than I to know whether you are ignorant.
>>Keep contributing, or write to me directly and maybe I'll come
>>to be in a position to form an opinion.
>
>I am ignorant, for I'm want of your nollij. I do not want to remain
in a state
>of ignorance. I am uninformed. Uneducated. Maybe illiterate?
>

If you say so.

>
>>:but
>>: you know, I'm just a low-life from Hungary,
>>
>>Again, I am in no position to know whether you are "low-life" or
not.
>>My inclination is to presume otherwise with people I don't yet
know.
>>But I shall refrain from offending you and risking your wrath by
>>contradicting you. I'll just have to take your word for it.
>
>Coming from you, I consider that a compliment. Thank you, kind Sir.
>
>>: speaking the North American version of English.
>>
>>Well, here I must disagree with you. As I have made it clear on
>>several earlier occasions, it seems to me that American is no
longer
>>te same language as English. That is *not* to say it is inferior
>
>OK. Whatever.
>
>>By the way, I am some disturbed by your apparent disparaging of
>>Hungarians. Perhaps it is just one of the differences between
>>American and English, but reading your posting as if it were in
>>English, one could easily gain the impression that you think
>>all people from Hungary are "low-life". Being a native of
>
>Oh, reading your posts in American, I thought you considered all of
us racists.
>So that's why I thought I'd be polite, and save you the trouble of
calling me
>that.
>

I certainly do *not* consider all of "you" racist. Your
concluding that I do  has more to do with a lack of training 
in logic --- or having forgotten it --- than with Churchilian
differences: Even if a society is racialist, it does *not* follow 
that *every*  member of that society shares racialist views.

Moreover, I do not recall referring to American society as
racialist. When did I?


>
>>Please share your insights, and maybe you shall convince me
>>to anglicise my name.
>
>As you desire.
>

I have no desire to do so, but if I am to be held to be
a kindred sould to numerous contributors here on account
of my monicur, then I may have to give the matter serious
thougt, for I may not enjoy much of a reputation, but I
prefer to preserve what there is of it.
>d.A.

Subject: Re: no comment! question
From: T. Kocsis, 
Date: 13 Jul 1995 15:14:06 GMT
In article > T. Kocsis,
 writes:
>In article > ibokor,

>writes:
>>>In article > 
wrote:
>>>: In article > ,
 writes=
>
>>: Orsz!gh L!szl!
>>: Angol-Magyar Sz!t!r:
>>: saying-n.  kijelent!s, mond!s
>
>>Even Orszagh agrees with me here.
>
>Kijelent!s, mond!s is not equal to mond!ka. It seems English has
>no word for 'mond!ka'.
>/*---*/

Quite possibly. I would have called it a "ditty" in the context
you used it. Little chants or incantations children use in
school playgrounds or games are often like that.

That occurs frequently going from one language to another.
That is why my parents often use English words in the middle
of Hungarian sentences as well. I remember studying Borchert(?)
in high school. In "Das Holz fuer Morgen", he used the word
"Aneinandervorbeisein", which is so pregnant in German and
completely impossible to "translate" into English.


>
>>: >> I appreciate your try
>>: >Yopu probably mean "trying".
>
>>: The Oxford Dictionary of Current English:
>>: try-  n. effort to accomplish something
>
>>The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary of 1980 (p.2375) lists the
>>current meanings of the noun "try" as:
>>1. "An act of trying; an experiment (rare), attempt, effort
>>(chiefly colloq.)"
>
>The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1993) says:
>3. gen. The action or an act of trying;
>an experiment or attempt at something;
>an endeavour.
>
>On the basis of the dictionary's definition alone you can
>not exclude the way i used the word.
>/*---*/

I didn't. There are numerous uses of the word "try".
Dictionaries attempt to cover them --- subject to availability
of space, the less frequent uses are sometimes omitted.
The problem arises that the fact that in some constructions
the word you found is used as you tried to use it is what misled
you. In the construction you used it is simply odd or wrong to
a native speaker of English.

But, for your information, in the context you used the word, the
preferred options to make your English sound more English and less 
foreign would be "but thanks for trying" or "but thanks for the
attempt".
English seems to me to be extremely contextual in usage. Synonyms
often cease to be interchangeanle in particcular settings. One
uses one's "ear" for the language to know which to avoid when.


>
>>Since you raised the matter of correct usage,
>>1. Note that English is one of the only languages which
>>uses a capital letter for the first person singular.
>
>Well, i am neither English nor one of that languages so
>i use it as i like it.
>/*---*/

Sorry, I did not understand that last string of words.

>
>>: kett!nk k!z!l nem !n vagyok az, aki azt
>>: hiszi mag!r!l, hogy tud angolul...
>
>>The fact that you posted your missive in a public forum, rather
than
>>sending it to me makes it anything *but* "between the two of us".
>
>this is nice to read it from someone who posted a missive in a
public
>forum, instead of sending me when its topic is considered avoidable
>on such forums.

I deferred to your judgment that it is appropriate for public 
discussion. You had just lambasted someone in less than generous 
terms for his/her poor command of Hungarian. Since you consider 
that suitable for public discussion, so be it. I shall continue 
to respond in public to public postings on matters of language.


d.A.

Hello, 
       my name is Matt Kovacs, I'm a 31 year old Australian, with a 
science degree in genetics and biochemistry, and a post graduate diploma
in forest biology and agroforestry. I have 5 years of permaculture 
experience from 4 continents.
As a permaculture designer and teacher I am wanting to teach courses in 
Hungary, and nearby countries next year. I would welcome any help I 
could receive in advertising, and organising courses. If you are, 
or know anybody that is committed to designing sustainable human 
settlements, ecologically, economically, ethically, and socially,
and want to help me in this please contact me.
Courses usually run for 2 weeks, but this is flexible. Short courses
can be tailored to suit people's needs.
If any is serious they can get more information from me.
Thanks,
       Matt.

In article >, Boglarka Lazar <bla
> writes:
|>
|>Kedves Tippelok!
|>
|>Kis, lehetoleg telefonos, lakast berelnek Budapesten szeptember 1-tol 
|>kb 2 evre. 
|>Hogy butorozott vagy nem az nem tul fontos. Segitene, ha butorozott 
|>lenne, de akkor nem tul eloregedett butotokkal. 
|>Olyan helyen kell hogy legyen, ahonnet tomegkozlekedesi eszkozzel 
|>konnyen be lehet jutni a belvarosba (Vaci utca kornyekere). 
|>Esetleg olyan is erdekelne, amit berelhetnek majd megvasarolhatnek (ha 
|>megvennem, akkor az egy even belul megtortenne).
|>	Az is nagy segitseg lenne, ha valaki, ha lakast nem is tud 
|>ajanlani, legalabb tajekoztatni tudna az arakrol. Fogalmam sincs, hogy 
|>milyen berleti dijra vagy arra szamithatok es szeretnem, ha nem vagnanak 
|>at nagyon.
|>	Huszonhat eves, szolid lany vagyok, pontosan fizeto, lakast megovo,
|>csondes, megbizhato alberlo. Ez volt itt a reklam, csak azert, hogyha 
|>esetleg tenyleg van olyan a vonalban, aki pont most akarja kiadni a lakasat. 
|>	Kerlek, inkabb maganlevelben (es hamar) valaszolj, ne terheljunk 
|>masokat unalmas temakkal. Nagyon varom a segitseget.
|>
|>				Udvozlettel:
|>
|>
|>				Lazar Boglarka
|>                  	     
|>                             Fax: 1 (301) 985-7445
|>                             Tel: 1 (301) 422-7131           
|>

Szerintem 2-2.5 millio Ft-ra lehet szamitani (leromlott, nemkomfortos persze
olcsobb), ami havi 20-25 ezer forintos berleti dijnak felel meg.

Hidas Pal

I would like to learn the meaning of the name HORNYAK.  It is the surname of my
 
paternal great-grandmother from near Satoraljaujhely.

I would also be interested if the name HORYNAK exists, or if it is the incorrec
t 
spelling of HORNYAK.

TIA

Joe Toth

*** Greetings from the Hungarian-American List ***
      ***      http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/       ***
      ***       mailto:          ***


YELTSIN AND CLINTON DISCUSS BOSNIA. Russian President Boris Yeltsin
discussed the situation in Bosnia by telephone with U.S. President Bill
Clinton on 28 July, Western agencies reported. Yeltsin reiterated
Russia's commitment to finding a "political solution" and expressed
concern that lifting the UN arms embargo on Bosnia could lead to an
escalation of the fighting. Speaking in Brunei, on 30 July, Russian
Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev said Yeltsin had sent the UN Security
Council a proposal to dispatch Russian troops as reinforcements for
peacekeepers in the UN "safe area" of Gorazde. In Moscow, presidential
adviser Yurii Baturin warned in a 29 July interview with NTV that if the
U.S. unilaterally lifts the arms embargo against the Bosnian government,
as recently called for by the U.S. Senate, it would strengthen "hawks"
in the Duma, like Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who want Russia to unilaterally
ignore the UN embargo against Serbia. -- Scott Parrish, OMRI, Inc.

ARE BOSNIAN SERBS USING CZECH "STEALTH-SPOTTER?" NATO officials have
"serious suspicions" that a Czech electronic system that can detect the
latest "stealth" aircraft is being used by Bosnian Serb forces, Mlada
fronta dnes reported on 31 July, quoting unnamed sources close to NATO
headquarters. The daily said suspicions that the "Tamara" detection
system was in use grew from the shooting down of an American F-16
fighter over Bosnia-Herzegovina in early June. The Czech Foreign
Ministry said no Tamara system has been exported to the former
Yugoslavia since the Czech Republic came into existence. The government
on 26 July authorized the makers of Tamara, which detects the electronic
emissions from a target aircraft's avionics, to export one of the
devices. Mlada fronta dnes reported on 29 July that the recipient will
be Kyrgyzstan. -- Steve Kettle, OMRI, Inc.

SLOVAK OFFICIALS ATTACK U.S. MEDIA. Roman Hofbauer, a parliamentary
deputy of the ruling Movement for a Democratic Slovakia, is currently
leading an attack on the U.S. media. Hofbauer sent a letter to U.S.
Ambassador to Slovakia Theodore Russell complaining that the U.S. press
uses sources originating outside Slovakia and reports on Slovakia's
political scene in an "non-objective and disparaging way," TASR reported
on 26 July. The U.S. Embassy responded by issuing a statement saying
that Hofbauer "demonstrated regrettable ignorance about how the
independent press functions in a democratic society." In an interview
with TASR on 28 July, Hofbauer said his complaints were based on
articles sent to him by Slovak Americans who feel "deeply provoked and
offended." The Permanent Conference of the Civic Institute on 28 July
called on the Slovak Foreign Ministry to distance itself from Hofbauer's
statements, noting that they put the country's foreign policy
orientation into doubt. Meanwhile, Slovak officials have also launched
attacks against RFE/RL's Slovak Service, whose license is up for renewal
this year. -- Sharon Fisher, OMRI, Inc.

TURKISH ISLAMISTS PROTEST BOSNIAN ARMS EMBARGO. More than 50,000 Turks
in Konya protested the arms embargo against Bosnia-Herzegovina on 29
July. Shouting "God Is Great," the demonstrators burned U.S. and UN
flags and demanded an immediate end to the embargo, Reuters reported the
same day. Turkey was one of eight Organization of Islamic Conference
states that on 26 July declared the UN embargo "invalid" and gave the
West a "last chance" to take concrete action before they defied the arms
embargo. Meanwhile, Anatolia, the semi-official news agency, on 25 July
reported that Turkey plans to sign a military cooperation accord with
Bosnia in early August. -- Lowell Bezanis, OMRI, Inc.
  
[As of 1200 CET]
[As of 12:00 CET]
Compiled by Victor Gomez
Compiled by Jan Cleave

This material was reprinted with permission of the Open Media 
Research Institute, a Prague-based nonprofit organization.

       Copyright (C) 1995 Open Media Research Institute, Inc.
                    All rights reserved.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
This message has been generated automatically. In case of errors, please,
          contact the administrator of the Hungarian-American List 
                 (mailto:) 

         Thank you for reading the Hungarian-American List !        
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

In article >,  > wrote:
>>>: >What  wrote reminded me of an examination
>>>:
>>>: Well, what you write usually reminds me of my dear friend, Mihai
>>>: Octavian:
>>>Who is Mihai Octavian?  What makes him so memorable?
>>
>>Please. If you read the newsgroup once in a while, you'd know. I
>I do read the newsgroup at least once in a while, but
>I do not read every posting or every thread. Nor am I
>blessed with a pachyderm's reputed memory, so I *still*
>don't know.

You don't know how sad I am to read that.

>Your response to a simple direct question is anything
>but simple and direct. I suspect that your evasion is
>longer than a brief explanation.

In 3 sentences (since your memory seems to be limited): in a previous post, I
asked you what d.A. meant. You gave me an evasive answer. So, I thought I'd
return the favor.

Dima got kicked off the net due to his prejudiced postings (at least as I've
heard). As to what he posted to scm, it was always how terrible Hungarians are,
especially to Romanians. You seem very similar (but not with respect to
Romanians).

>I doubt that any remedial class in English is necessary, for
>claiming that racialism is alive and well in Hungarian society,
>that it is one of the threads in the history of Hungary is in no
>way shape or form *blaiming* Hungary for anything.

Please, at least take a spelling class, then.

>Your extrapolation is specious and false. My attachment to
>Hungarian background does not blind me to the flaws I see in
>"Hungarian culture" or "Hungarian society". I am sure that
>the learned gentlemen of this group do not hold against
>Hunagry or Hungarian society that it was part of the Warsaw
>Pact or allied with Germany in World War II. These unpleasant
>facts will not cease to be true no matter how much any of
>us wish it otherwise. This is just the same as the fact that
>any German who wishes to take pride in Goethe and Beethoven
>must also come to terms with Hitler and Bismarck.

So why couldn't you write this in the first place? Judging by posts,
(obviously, reading it in American, not English), you do nothing but put
negative judgment on Hungarian society. This is the first time you did not
reply in a sarcastic tone. This is the first time you have come out of the
shell you seem to project on the net. So at least I've succeded in getting
to know what you're after. So I have to write garbage in order for you to
reply? You can't answer me seriously unless I get you upset?

>The same is true in Australia. I have lived here a while.
>I and my ancestors were on a different continent as the
>indigenous peoples here were ruthlessly slaughtered. We thus
>bear none of the responsiblity for the carnage and blatant
>racialism. We are neverthelss burdenend by it, for our
>being here, our living here is, in part at least, a consequence
>of these deeds. Thus I try here to do what I can to counter
>racialiam, whether it be directed against the Kooris and Murris
>and Islanders or against Asian immigrants or against such
>exotic beasts as immigrants from uHngary.

Please. At least check your spelling, if nothing else. Once again, why couldn't
you write this previously? I doubt you really care, but, at least your posts
make more sense in this light (at least to me).

>>>: >d.A.
>>>:
>>>: So what does this d.A. stand for?
>I spent some time in Switzerland, where I was repeatedly
>accused of the most heinous crime known in that country,
>viz., of being "a foreigner". I furiously protested my
>innocence, for it is blatantly clear that I am *not* a
>foreigner, I was merely in a foreign country. Anyway,
>the German for "the foreigner" is "der Auslaender", which
>is conveniently abbreviated to "d.A." A synonym for
>"der Auslaender" which I heard frequently is "das Arschloch",
>which is rendered into English by "the arsehole". Fortuitously,
>it is also abbreviated by "d.A." This latter epithet is one
>I find myself using to refer to myself, especially when I bother
>to provide detailed answers to people who evade answering simple
>direct questions.

Thank you, kind Sir. Now, why couldn't you write this in a previous post?

>>>: Please forgive this ignorance of mine,
>>>
>>>This is hardly an instance of ignorance. "Innocence is not knowing.
>>>There is nothing wrong with that. Ignorance is not wanting to know,
>>>and that is a crime". Julius Sumner Miller once said th2at, or
>>>something very like it.
>>
>>Maybe. According to the New Expanded Webster's Dictionary (edited
>>by R.F. Patterson, M.A., D.Litt.) 1989 Edition, (ISBN 0-938261-79-X)
>>p. 167:
>>Ignorance: state of being illiterate, uninformed, or uneducated,
>>want of knowledge.
>>Ignorant: wanting knowledge or information.
>>
>>Innocence is something else (p. 178):
>>quality of being innocent, freedom from  crime or guilt, simplicity
>>of heart.
>>Innocent: not noxious, or hurtful, free from guilt, simple hearted,
>>guileless.
>>Free from guilt or harm, a natural or simpleton.
>>
>>Maybe I am a simpleton, I don't know, I hope so. But I know I am
>>ignorant to a lot of things (unlike you, I presume).
>
>Julius Sumner Miller was trying to elucidate the difference between
>the state of being an ignoramus and the fact of being innocent (as
>an antonym of sophisticated). If you do not understand his
>statement, then perhaps the advice you so readily proffered is one
>you should heed yourself.

Well, if we go by the dictionary definitions, what Mr. Miller said makes no
sense. He said ignorance (want of knowledge) is a crime. Simplicity (being
guileless) is great.
If you confuse ignorance with stupidity (although, an educated man like you
doesn't do that), well, maybe you should take more than a remedial course in
spelling, maybe you should learn the meaning of the word, then try to form
sentences.

>>>You may in fact be ignorant. I do not know. I tend to presume
>>>otherwise, unless I have reason to believe so. But you are
>>>certainly better placed than I to know whether you are ignorant.
>>>Keep contributing, or write to me directly and maybe I'll come
>>>to be in a position to form an opinion.
>>
>>I am ignorant, for I'm want of your nollij. I do not want to remain
>>in a state of ignorance. I am uninformed. Uneducated. Maybe illiterate?
>>
>If you say so.

I know I'm uninformed. I have no idea when Jaguar Paw ruled. I'll look it up,
if you won't tell me. (Maybe you're better informed than me, less ignorant.) I
have no idea how a VLBI system is built. I am ignorant to these facts. But
since I'm not stupid, I can look them up, and not remain ignorant.

>>>By the way, I am some disturbed by your apparent disparaging of
>>>Hungarians. Perhaps it is just one of the differences between
>>>American and English, but reading your posting as if it were in
>>>English, one could easily gain the impression that you think
>>>all people from Hungary are "low-life". Being a native of
>>
>>Oh, reading your posts in American, I thought you considered all of
>>us racists.
>>So that's why I thought I'd be polite, and save you the trouble of
>>calling me that.
>I certainly do *not* consider all of "you" racist. Your

You don't know how happy I am to read that. I was really worried as to your
opinion.

>concluding that I do  has more to do with a lack of training
>in logic --- or having forgotten it --- than with Churchilian
>differences: Even if a society is racialist, it does *not* follow
>that *every*  member of that society shares racialist views.

Well, my logic works like this: you wrote that you generalize (i.e. Hungarian
society is racist) but give plenty of examples to the contrary (maybe not
verbatim, but this was the idea behind your post; since I do not save your
posts, I can't prove it, but it was about a year ago). Since then, you only
wrote about how racist Hungarian society is, with maybe 1 example to the
contrary. I believe 1 example to the contrary does not qualify as "plenty",
although it may be more than enough for you, since it is a relative term. Once
again, I cannot prove it, since I don't save your posts, neither does our
server, so I remain open to your wrath.

>Moreover, I do not recall referring to American society as
>racialist. When did I?

How does American society come into this? Where did I write that you called
American society racist?

>>>Please share your insights, and maybe you shall convince me
>>>to anglicise my name.
>>
>>As you desire.
>>
>I have no desire to do so, but if I am to be held to be
>a kindred sould to numerous contributors here on account
>of my monicur, then I may have to give the matter serious
>thougt, for I may not enjoy much of a reputation, but I
>prefer to preserve what there is of it.

As you desire. I can't make up your mind for you. Indecision must be terrible.
You may desire to get off your pedestal, though, and get your head out of the
clouds.

Gabor

In article > Liviu Iordache,
 writes:
>It seems to me that there is a general agreement on the issue of
>ethnical discrimination in 15th century Hungary. According to the
>conventional wisdom being Olah was not a crime in that epoch and,
>hence, I doubt Cilli was accusing Hunyadi of something
>just by stressing his Wallachian origin.

There is only two problem: The Cilley family was not Hungarian
but Styrian and they were newcomers in Hungary similarly as
Hunyady. The rise of the family - more exactly Hermann Cilley
- begun under Sigismund. 

Tamas

Szeretnem megkerdezni, hogy lehet-e, erdemes-e Amerikaban venni mobil 
telefont magyarorszagi hasznalatra? Elfogadjak-e a magyarorszagon mukodo 
cegek, vagy csak olyan telefon jo nekik, amit toluk vesz az ember. Milyen 
gyartmanyt, modelt erdemes venni?

			Udv mindenkinek,

					Boglarka
                                  

Kedves Tippelok!

Kis, lehetoleg telefonos, lakast berelnek Budapesten szeptember 1-tol 
kb 2 evre. 
Hogy butorozott vagy nem az nem tul fontos. Segitene, ha butorozott 
lenne, de akkor nem tul eloregedett butotokkal. 
Olyan helyen kell hogy legyen, ahonnet tomegkozlekedesi eszkozzel 
konnyen be lehet jutni a belvarosba (Vaci utca kornyekere). 
Esetleg olyan is erdekelne, amit berelhetnek majd megvasarolhatnek (ha 
megvennem, akkor az egy even belul megtortenne).
	Az is nagy segitseg lenne, ha valaki, ha lakast nem is tud 
ajanlani, legalabb tajekoztatni tudna az arakrol. Fogalmam sincs, hogy 
milyen berleti dijra vagy arra szamithatok es szeretnem, ha nem vagnanak 
at nagyon.
	Huszonhat eves, szolid lany vagyok, pontosan fizeto, lakast megovo,
csondes, megbizhato alberlo. Ez volt itt a reklam, csak azert, hogyha 
esetleg tenyleg van olyan a vonalban, aki pont most akarja kiadni a lakasat. 
	Kerlek, inkabb maganlevelben (es hamar) valaszolj, ne terheljunk 
masokat unalmas temakkal. Nagyon varom a segitseget.

				Udvozlettel:


				Lazar Boglarka
                  	     
                             Fax: 1 (301) 985-7445
                             Tel: 1 (301) 422-7131

Subject: Re: no comment! question
From: T. Kocsis, 
Date: 11 Jul 1995 15:23:43 GMT
In article > T. Kocsis,
 writes:


>But.
>
>I believe that you flamed me for different reason. 

My point was simply that your taking the mickey out of someone
whose Hungarian was flawed invites, even deserves, that your
English be subjected to the same scrupulous examination.  

I don't consider that "flaming", but perhaps others do.
If it is "flaming", I shall have to bear the odium of
applying the standards you apply to others' posting to yours.
Mea culpa.


>I insulted you elsewhere, another time ( i only can guess where and
>when ) 


I have asked you before and I ask you again to indicate where
and when you think you have insulted me. I recall attempts at 
derision, but I believe I have always responded immediately.


>you try to pay back now, on a dishonest way.


Explanation please. HJow have I been/am i beng dishonest?


>Next time if you do not agree with me on any question don't
>be shy just speak out. 

I don't recall ever showing any recitude in responding at the first 
available opportunity. But it could be that at times my responses
were
delayed, like when I had no access to the newsgroup.

>i ain't gona go to Australia to kick your arse because of it. 

If the urge ever overcomes you, let me know. I can write a letter
in support of your application for a visa. I have no fear of your
kicking my arse, here in Australia, or anywhere else in the world.

d.A.

>  
>  
>  Also Dalmatians are not a mixture of Slavs and Latins as you claim.
>  Mr Cosic Dalmatians are indeed tall but this Dalmo is not to friendly to
>  to the verbal insecticide of you and your allies.  
>  
Quit Balkanizing the net!
		Ralph

I would like to be able to obtain some information on the Hungarian city 
of Dunaujvaros. I was recently in Hungary and I visited the town. I know 
that it isn't really a tourist destination but I would like to get some 
information on its history etc.

Lee Laborcz.

You can also try theses : 




  COOPTURIST, Budapest, Kossuth Lajos te'r
     contact person : Zsuzsa Volenikne' A'goston
     phone : (36)(1)132.4144 , 111.6839
     fax   : (36)(1)111.6683
     telex : 224741
 
     2+1/2 room apartments (Budapest, Va'rmegye utca)
       (in the center)
     45000 Ft/week (1800 FF/week)($375/week)
 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  COOPTURIST, Budapest, Nyugati te'r
     contact person : Mo'nika Molna'r
     phone and fax : (36)(1)132-7126
     telex : 227561
 
     2 room apartments  }
     2600 Ft/day        }
        (in blocks)     } > 35000 Ft/week (1400 FF/week)($300/week)
     1 room apartments  }
     2300 Ft/day        }
 
     these rooms are small
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  IBUSZ
     contact person : Szilvia Kuti
     phone : (36)(1)118.4842 , 118.3925
     fax   : (36)(1)1187.9099
     telex : 224941
 
     2 room apartments (in Buda)
     6000 Ft/day (1700 FF/week)($350/week)
 
     these rooms are large

Overseas Jobs Express has started a mailing list discussion group
 for people interested in swapping experiences of finding work
 abroad and of coping once they get there.  This is the first
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 type:-      subscribe oje 

 The editor of OJE will be monitoring the list and will try to 
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 though, we expect travel vets among the list users to be able to 
 answer each other's questions.


 ====================================================================
 Overseas Jobs Express | Editor:  
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 (Joshua S. Freeman) wrote:
>I work for a very small non-profit based in Princeton, NJ called the
>Corvina Foundation.  It's sole mission is to contribute to or design and execu
te projects in the arts and education sectors which b=
enefit
>Hungarians in Hungary.  We have two projects we'd like to accomplish in
>the next year:  
>The first is a distance learning project using teleconferencing software over 
the 'net between The Manhattan School of Music and th=
e Franz Liszt Academy in Budapest. Essentially, we would offer a violin master 
class, given in/broadcast from NYC for the students i=
n Budapest, followed later by a master class on Bartok string quartets given by
 the Takacs Quartet in/broadcast from Budapest.
>
>The second project involves working with the Hungarian Ministry of Culture and
 a Hungarian 'net access provider to put together a c=
omprehensive database on Hungarian Culture (from painting to folk dancing) on t
he WWW.
>
>I have no problem describing the projects in detail...I am having a
>problem describing the step by step strategy to accomplish them, breaking them
 down into their component parts and figuring out how=
 much they're going to cost so I know how much we need to raise! (There is a fo
undation that has expressed an interest in assisting =
us financially with both of these projects...).
>
>http://www.connix.com/~jfreeman/

Are they willing to fund the entire project no matter the cost? or is there an 
average grant that they like to stick to? 
Do you have any technical experts who will be involved with the project? Maybe 
they could help you cost analyse. Is there any potent=
ial for in-kind donations - ie technical staff time or products. I would say it
 sounds like you need a volunteer financial wiz - fro=
m the local community - who you can make into an official advisor/board member.
 DOn't need to forge this path alone!

BTW, the project sounds incredible. I'm planning a trip to the Czech Republic i
n September to look for opportunities for collaborati=
ve projects with Prague theatre artists. I'd love to keep in touch with you abo
ut this.

colin

> ========================================================================
              AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF YOUNG HUNGARIANS
                 FIATAL MAGYAROK AMERIKAI EGYESULETE
> ========================================================================


07/31/95 FINAL ADDRESS CHANGE -- The AAYH WWW homepage has moved to:

                          ************************
		          * http://www.aayh.org/ *
                          ************************ 

         Please change your links to point to the new address. 
         (Varga Gyuszi) 

---
AAYH Email:		
AAYH WWW:		http://www.aayh.com/

In article > Liviu Iordache,
 writes:
>In article >, T. Kocsis > says
:

>>LI>1.According to the chronicle of the counts Cilli,
>>LI>the elder Janos was born in Wallachia: "it is known that
>>LI>this Janos Hunyadi was born in Wallachia..."

>>Well, this might had been the result of hatred. Cilley was an
>>enemy of the Hunyady family. Once earlier he wrote that J. H.
>>was "not an appropiate noble".

>True, blood was shed between the count Cilli and Hunyadis but your
>dismissing of the Cilli testimony as driven by hate lacks
>substance because there is nothing to warrant your assumption.

Well, Hunyady  even waged war on Cilley when he took the 
fortresses of Vrana,  Szentgyorgy and  Pakrac (1446). Later
Cilley surrendered when Hunyady besieged the family's fort-
resses in Styria.

/*---*/
>>LI>Also, the contemporary chronicler Thuroczi mentioned that the family
>>LI>[not Voyk alone, but the "family"] was from Wallachia. This is strong
>>LI>evidence, I think, that Janos was born before Voyk's Transylvanian
>>LI>marriage.

>>"Fertur enim, quod rex Sigismundus virtutis nomine genitoris militis
>>huius pulsatus illum partibus de Transalpinis suum traduxisset..."
>>(Johannes de Turocz: Chronica Hungarorum)

>I missed the significance, if any, of the above quote.

I found this quote *without* family.
/*---*/

>Even if in 1409 Hunyadi was only in his teens, according to
>the epoch's standards, he was already an adult. However,
>to constrict Hunyadi's birth date between 1395 and 1400 based on
>his teasing of Capistrano (i.e., Hunyadi called him Old Fart :-),
>is inadmissible. You can not dismiss Vitez's letter, actually
>Hunyadi's own testimony that in 1448 he was over 60 years old,
>and build on fiction. It is safer to confess ignorance.

OK,  let see another quote which also supports the younger age, from
Thuroczy:
"Post hec dominus comes Biiztricensis, qui tot tantosque sue iuven-
tutis primevo a tempore bellorum exegerat labores, nondum senec-
tutis etate demolitus, sed continuo armorum gestamine curarumque
directione fatigatus et viribus exhaustus ibidem egrotavit..."

[łEzek után a besztercei gróf úr, aki ifjúságának korai szakaszától
kezdve annyi nagy haditettet vitt végbe, nem is öregségtől ledöntve,
hanem az állandó fegyverforgatástól és gondoktól kifáradva és ere-
jében kimerülve betegeskedni kezdett..." transl. of Sándor Horváth]

/*---*/
>>LI>Held gives the following references:
>>LI>Homan, B., 1936, Magyar Tortenet, 5 vols., Budapest.
>>
>>I checked this book, and Homan did not say that he was not Romanian.
>
>According to Held, Homan suggested that Hunyad was not
>Romanian but of South Slavic descent (see p.179, note 28)

Homan did not take a stand on the question, he merely lists the
possibilties. He mentions another legend which we haven't dis-
cussed yet.
I try to translate Homan's words to English. First he talks of
the Sigismund legend, then continues:
"This traditions found its way to Serb soil, but with alteration.
In the Serb heroic song [Magyar János szebenvári vajda/ Janos
Magyar, voivode of Sibiu]  he appears as the son of the Serb despot,
Stephan Lazarevic and an unknown Hungarian maid."
Then he carries on the the discusson of Sigismund legend.

There is no more South slavic connections mentioned in the book.

Tamás

Liviu Iordache writes:

> >I hope you (Liviu) have read all three parts of the responses. Including
> >the extensive referncse that the Franks were controlling what is now
> >western Hungary.

> Yes, I did. Nowhere in the quotes provided I could found something
> suggesting even vaguely that the Franks were ever called Vlakhs.

> Moreover, in my opinion, your quotes failed to prove that the
> Franks controlled the area occupied by the Magyars at the beginning
> of the 10th century.                                                    

Liviu, I hope you have no problems with the Latin texts quoted. :-), I sure 
think they are pretty clear in their showing who were subject to whom. 
Please read the "Conversio Bagvariorum et Carantanarum" and the Annales 
Fuldensis for 892 though 901 it is full of references for the dependency of 
what is now western Hungary to the Franks. (if you need copies, I can fax>)

> The most surprising thing was the
> misinterpretation of Constantine's D.A.I. Nobody ever said more
> clearly than he that Sviatopluk's Moravia was south of the Danube.
> In the D.A.I Sviatopluk is definitely the central figure, and his
> Megale Moravia is the main area afterwords settled by the Magyars.
> The East Franks did not rule it and this is why they hired the
> Magyars, to use them for taking over this South Slavic realm.

Its interesting that nobody else placed them there and all other sources
place Moravia where it still is. Th Pannonian Legends place it near 
Salzburg and Passau Diocese and particularly in Nitra and Mosaburg, which 
are some distance from the area of "south of Pannonia". But lets see what 
the good emperor says in other places: Section 42 The Turks lands start 
north of the Danube at Belegrada and also between the Danube and the Sava 
and furthermore list rivers, near which they lived, all if which are in 
what was Hungary and not the Serbian or Croatian lands. In Section 27; "In 
those days the Longobards lived in Pannonia where now the Turks live." The 
Avars lived along the Danube where now the Turks live in a nomad manner. In 
Section 32: It is known (the Serbs) that they are descended from the pagan 
Serbs who are also called white. These live beyond Turkia in a land where 
they are called Boiki.." (which is Bohemia). So even Porphyrogentitus, if 
one reads all of it is clearly placing the Hungarians in Hungary and not at 
some place south of the Danube. I have not the foggiest idea where he got 
the megali Moravia south of the Turkoi, (maybe he did not know either) 
because in numerous other places he clearly places the Turkoi where they 
were in the Carpathian basin.


> Even early Magyar traditions maintained that the Magyars had to
> acquire their teritory from Sviatopluk, the one crowned rex
> Sclavorum by the pope. According to the legend, the Magyars first
> purchased their land from Sviatopluk, but afterwords cheated him
> over the price and slew him (see Chronicon Budense).

Yeah, but what does this do to where his lands were.

> The Magyars did not fight the East Franks initially. They spared
> the east Frankish kingdom during Arnulf's lifetime. 10th century
> authors thought that this was because Arnulf had come to an
> agreement with them, and it would appear from a contemporary
> letter of the archibishop of Salzbourg that the Moravians
> thought so too. However, maybe the Magyars  needed several good
> years to recover after the Bulgaro-Pecheneg disaster.

Wait a second. Regino of Prum for 899 "first they roamed the deserts of the 
Pannonians and the Avars and sought their daily food by hunting and 
fishing. Then by frequent and destructive inroads they broke through the 
borders of the Carinthians, Moravians, and Bulgarians... (the Carinthians 
all the time and the Moravians part of the time were Frankish fiefs. See 
the Annales Fuldenses for 892 and the Theotmar letter to the Pope complaing 
that the Moravians were previously allied with the Hungarians. Thus the 
Hungarians  (Ungaros) allied with Arnulf only later and kept that alliance 
until Arnulf's death.


> >As long as we are writing about who called whom what lets clear that the
> >Byzantines consistently referred to themselves as *Romans*, however they
> >did call the Frankish lands and particularly the eastern Frankish lands 
as
> >Frangia (actually Fraggia) as late as the end of the X century, at which
> >time according to Liviu they should have called them Germans.

> I do not recall my saying that the Byzantine called the East Franks
> "Germans". All I said was that they spoke German, as proved by the
> Oaths of Strasbourg, and that the Slavs living next to them called the
> East Franks "Niemtsi", as recorded in Vita Methodii. That the Byzantine
> called them Fraggoi it doesn't mean that they spoke Romance. The ancient
> Franconia was located east of the "linguistic" frontier between
> Romance and German. The English vocabulary includs "wodka" but
> this doesn't mean the English people originated in Russia.

Well, the Hungarians speak "magyar", what does what language they speak has 
anything to do with what they are called. You can't argue that the 
Byzantines had more contact with the Franks than the Bulgarians or the 
Russians and still they were called Franks regardless of what language they 
spoke. One theory is that the origin of the word is from low Latin "wallus" 
meaning *stranger*. Thus such places as Wales, Gallia, Wallon, 
Galatoi,could have been derivations of the same word. Please remeber that 
East Frankland (Francia Orientalis) was known as Valland to the 
Scandinavians. As a matter of fact they called Italy the same way. Thus 
there is precedent of the term being used for folks who did not speak Latin 
but were "strangers".

> Although the concept of Germania was probably available only to
> educated Franks, it is no doubt that most of the inhabitants of the
> East Frankish kingdom spoke German. From 786 onwards there is the
> adjective theodiscus, a latinized version of the Old High Germanic
> theod-isk (from theoda, "folk, people", meaning "of the people")
> In the 9th century there is a revival of the classic words Teutones,
> Teutonicus, presumably because of their affinity with theodiscus.
> Theodiscus, the ancestor of the modern German word Deutsch, denoted
> a comunity of language, as in the phrase nationes Theodiscae
> (i.e., German-speaking people) In order to clarify this issue,
> allow me to suggest a couple of additional readings:

> Reuter, T., 1991, Germany in the early middle ages c.800-1056.
>      Longman Inc., New York p.349.

> Wright, R.(ed.), 1991, Latin and the Romance Languages in the Early
>      Middle Ages. Routledge, London, p.262.

All may have spoken one of the Germanic tounges, but their records and 
correspondance was kept in Latin. They called themselves the Roman Empire.
Again what the people's language was had seemingly little to do with the 
nations name.

> >Thus the Byzantines records use Franks for the by then Germanized east
> >Frankish domains.

> Yes, the Greeks called them Fraggoi and the Slavs called them
> Niemtsi. Nobody called them Vlakhs.

See above discussion regarding what the Scandinavians called them and what 
is the name the Poles used for them  (and still use for Italy). Please 
remeber that at the time when the name was given by the Poles Italy was 
part of the East Frankish empire.


> Excuse my French but this is plain BS. The Bulgars were in close
> contact with both the East Franks and the Moravians.

> From the Royal Annals, under the year 824, we learn that the Moravians
> were in conflict with the Bulgars. The Bulgar representative appeared
> before the emperor Louis the Pios in Aachen. In 827, Bulgars operating
> from ships on Drava, began a series of raids into Pannonia, were they
> succeded in replacing Slavic duces, who had been loyal to the Franks,
> with their own underlings (rectors).

Now you are agreeing that the Salvic princes were under Frankish 
suzerainity? Why are you arguing against it in the first part of the 
discussion?

> The 863 campaign of Luis the German against Moravians was to be carried
> out with the help of the Bulgars (Annales Xantenses) A papal letter
> also reports that Louis went to Tulln to confirm his alliance with
> the Bulgar ruler and to bring Rastislav's disobidience to an end.

> Alliances between the Franks and the Bulgars against the Moravians
> were also formed in 880s and 890s.

> It is very obvious that the Bulgars had close contacts with
> the Franks as early as the beginning of the 9th century. To
> pretend that the Serbian and Moravians knew that the East Franks
> spoke German but the Bulgars thought they spoke Romance (and,
> therefore, so did the Russians [sic!]) it is just a desperate
> attempt to save the unwarranted Vlakh=East Franks speculation.

Close contact means living next to them. There were other Slavs living 
under Frankish suzerainity next to the Bulgarian domains. (By the way your 
latter discussion is sure ignoring your earlier thesis of where megali 
Moravia was. You can't have mM in the south, and then ignore it in the 
second part of your discussion and have the Bulgarians cozying up to the 
Franks, ignoring everybody else who lived between them.

> >it should not come as a surprise that they are
> >talking about Franks or in some cases using the word for Latin speakers,
> >i.e. Vlachs.

> This theory verge on the the burlesque. What's the problem Jeliko,
> is your "boat" sinking? :-)

No, but I  try to read all of the original cited texts, not only excerpts 
from them, or others secondary references. See above for the wallus.

> >>>It is incorrect to say that the Byzantine generally described the
> Hungarians as Turkoi. Far from being the usual Byzantine custom to
> refer to the Magyars as "Turkoi", this custom was actually  a very
> restricted one. The custom was introduced by Leo the Philosopher,
> after the Greco-Buulgarian-Magyar war. The warriors whom Leo saw
> and described during the war of 895 were Kavars who were themselves
> Turks. This name "Turkoi" was adopted by Leo's Patriarch [your
> Nicolaus, writting in 912], by his son, and by the writters who
> compiled their works under the son's directions. Constantine, in his
> De Administrando Imperio, was led to carry on the imperial tradition
> of nomenclature. The period during which the term was in use
> hardly exceeds 50 years (Macartney, C.A., 1968, The Magyars in the
> Ninth Century, Cambridge University Press)

Not exactly, the sources are referring to Turkoi as attacking the 
Bulgarians and the Khazars were in the Byzantine Imperial Guard who were
defeated before the Tourkoi were asked to help.


> According to Macartney, the popular custom among the Greek
> chroniclers was to refer to the Magyars as "Ougroi" and he argued
> his point using examples from Leo Grammaticus, Georgius Monachus,
> and Zonaras.<<<

Well maybe Maccartney did not read all of the good Hamartolus. As an 
example in the section discussing  Vasul of Macedonia he sure calls folks 
by every name he can think of. In one paragraph relating to the 
Macedonians, who were moved beyond the Danube by Krum, and were under the 
leadership of Tzantes and Kordyles, were again attacked by the Bulgarians 
(in about 839) and the Bulgarians asked for help from the Ouggroi, when 
they arrived he called them Ounnoi, when they attacked the Macedonians he 
called them Turkoi and when they were Defeated by Leo of Gomoston he called 
them Ounnoi. In this paragraph for the same folks we have  "Ouggoroi" once, 
"Ounnoi" twice and "Tourkoi" twice. 

In discussing the Byzantine/Bulgarian/Hungarian war the Hamartolus reads
"Symeon captured the Khazars who served in the Imperial Guard and cut their 
noses off and sent them back to the city." Thus the Khazars (you called 
them Kavars were serving on the Byzantine side and there is no indication 
that they were part of the Hungarian invasion force which was subsequent to 
the above mentioned plastic surgery. As a matter of fact in the same 
paragraph Hamartolus writes: "(Nicetas Skleros) went and met with the 
rulers of the Tourkoi Arpad and and Kusan..."

Or please read the Tactics by Leo the Wise (parts copied from Urbicius 
written in the VIII century who also used Tourkoi in Section XI paragraph 
III of his work that much for the tradition starting with Leo), in Section 
41, 42, 44, 46, 60, 61, 74 calls them Tourkoi.

Well, that much is enough to see what they were called "generally" by the 
Byzantines of the times.


> >This is an example I am refering to when claiming that the earlier
> >war between the Pechenegs and the Hungarians was not as great as 
indicated
> >in some chronicles.
> >

> Hmmmm!? Georgius Monachus recorded that "he [i.e., Simeon]
> slaughtered them all" and the Annales Fuldenses mentioned
> that "a large proportion of them [was] killed". D.A.I. stated
> that the Pechenegs "conquering them[i.e., the Magyars] in the turn
> of battle and driving them out, they chased them away.."

> The Pecheneg attacked the Hungarian patria, devasted it, and carried
> off their women and children. Between 895 and 899 the Magyars,
> contrary to their customs, were unable to sustain major expeditions.
> A recent textbook on history of Hungary (Sugar) talks about the
> existance of a real "Pecheneg phobia"

> It sounds like a real disaster to everybody but you.

Well earlier you claimed that the troops invading Bulgaria were Kavars and 
not Hungarians. So who was beaten badly by whom?  Was it the Kavars who 
were exterminated by Symeon? I do not think either ones. Just as in other 
"body counts" a lot of exaggeration was and is used by folks who call 
themselves historians. In the X century many Pechenegs were incorporated 
into the Hungarian nation, just see the place names and personal names 
starting with Bese or Besse. Thus I still claim that the "disasters" 
claimed were not as great as indicated by some of the sources.

> I might have touched a sensitive spot here, haven't I?
> How do you feel about Posada, Baia or Selimber, Jeliko?

Do you mean that you believe everything written about those also?

> I am just kidding, please don't take me seriously:-)

If I did not, I would not be arguing with you.

 Regards,

Jeliko.

The Wall Street Journal (7/31) has a feature article about "Real estate"
 and about general housing conditions in Budapest. So enough said, read it
 if you care.
 Cheers
 Andras