>
> Szegeny az emberek akik nem eszik a jo gulyast!
>
>
> Paul


Kedves Pali!

(Szerintem nyelvtanilag nem teljesen stimmel...) but I'm so happy I
can read some hungarian. Isn't their a magyar nyelvu list?

Tineke

> Datum:         Wed, 7 Dec 1994 20:32:22 EST
> Antwoord aan:  Hungarian Discussion List >
> Van:           paul >
> Onderwerp:     Re: Pictures of the Hungarian Shield and the City of Budapest
> Aan:           Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >

> What do addresses that look like this refer to:
>         http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary
>
> I've seen htis type of thing often, but don't konw what to do with it.
>
> Paul

You can use them with World Wide Web. I'll try this one immediately
and let you know the result.

Tineke

On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, paul wrote:

> What do addresses that look like this refer to:
>         http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary
>
> I've seen htis type of thing often, but don't konw what to do with it.

They are World Wide Web addresses.  They can be accessed by WWW browsers,
such as Mosaic, lynx, Netscape or others.

Zoli )

Nothing annoys me more, than balancing  health (life/death)
of people on economic criteria, and usually even on that
level is wrong. How do you know what is the LONG TERM benefit
of an anti-smoke campaign? I am sure it saves a LOT OF MONEY
on less health expenditure and lost working hours/sick benefits.
And I have personal experience of it working: When I worked in
Tab (Videoton) my department (computer engineers/administrators
and a translater-mock programmer) got in the mood of anti-smoke
- I don't know what triggered it (wasn't me, honest). And in a
year from the 10 smokers only one left - the boss, and as he
he had his desk in the same space, he had to go
out when he wanted to smoke... (He was the party secretary as
well, I wonder what happened to him, he was actually very
decent chap). Sorry for being chatty - I don't know what
came over me... 


>
>
> biggest problem). When all this is considered, the idea of
> aiming medical education at children principally, doesn't seem so
> unreasonable to me. It's less expensive, because it can be added to
> the curriculum at school, and it's effect also reaches the
> parents. Furthermore, considering Hungary's current situation, it's
> probably the best affordable solution at this point of time.
>
>                                                        David.

 wrote:
: Jennifer's Hungarian is excellent and I bet it will be even better after a
: semester in Hungary. A word or two on the dog.

// cut alot about dogs! //

take it to e-mail pleeze! Eva, good to hear you're expertease, finally!

i got a 14yr old cat... can i move to hungary?
oh yeah, how about my 30 mollies, 2 hamsters and box-turtle... are laws
in Budapest against boas, condors, toads, lemmings, Norwegian rats, newts,
hogs, goats, lammas... etc..?

let me guess. one's zoological collection is prone to how many dollars you
bring along... that's why i'm gonna bring ALOT of them... along with my pets..
BTW... will i have to stand in line for pet food???

best :)
emil

later :)
emil

: Eva Balogh

Sorry, I am lost here - have I said anything about assassination?


>
> Eva Durant writes:
>
> > I wouldn't listen to any (secret?) security services. They need
> > malicious rumours to stay in business. What do you need them for
> > Joe Pannon?
>
> Brilliant logic.  Security services are capable of lying, thus
> incapable of assasination.
>
> --Greg

Tibor Benke ) wrote:
: I just read this on HIX-MOKA:

: >Nem kene Magyarorszagnak a NATO helyett inkabb a szerbekhez csatlakoznia?*

: *Trans. (Aprox.) :  Instead of joining NATO, maybe Hungary should join
: Szerbia ?

: TB

LEHETTLEN! (ha csak nem a szerbek ko:telezne'nek)
emil

>
>         ...Marriage or nonmarriage--not race, not class, not age,
>         and not the presence or absence of prenatal programs--best
>         predicts a woman's chance of giving birth to a healthy child.
>         An unmarried white college graduate was less likely to bear
>         a healthy child than a married black high school dropout.
>

Now I would definitely be happy to have data on this. Sounds like
creationist/fundamentalist rhetoric. (polite!!)
I am quite convinced the
rich/poor divide what counts most. Most couples are married in
Kobanya, as much as in Rozsadomb, I am sure.

I thought Ceausescu was dead. Inciting for racial hatred -
still alive. Shame. 


>
> "..reveals that Ceausescu's role in international terrorism and
> intelligence gathering is greater than has ever been imagined."
>
> "Romania supports an extraordinary network of spies and "agents of
> influence"-ranging from ambassadors to American archbishops. Red
> Horizons reveals the unparalleled surveillance to which every Romanian
> citizen is subjected, detailing how virtually every building in the
> country is "bugged" and monitored."
>
> Chapter IX of the book has the subtitle "Hatred for Hungarians".
>
>
> C.K. Zoltani

Of course the quality of healthcare should not depend on economical ups
and downs!!! And of course an anti-smoke campaign has long term benefits.
My question was not whether something should be done, but what can be done.
And more importantly; who can do it! In my point of view, those who are
trying to find a proper solution should take notice of the particular
character of Hungarian society. And one of the aspects of that
character, at this moment, is a troublesome economy, with specific
problems, such as a huge national debt and a lack of money to invest. If
you want to deal with the health situation, you really can't ignore
that, even if you would really like to! By the way, I completely support
you on the issue of the marriage/non-marriage-rich/poor discussion. And
as far as smoking is concerned: despite medical education and all, the
best solution still is to ask smokers to leave the room, I think.

                                                             David.

On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> Nothing annoys me more, than balancing  health (life/death)
> of people on economic criteria, and usually even on that
> level is wrong. How do you know what is the LONG TERM benefit
> of an anti-smoke campaign? I am sure it saves a LOT OF MONEY
> on less health expenditure and lost working hours/sick benefits.
> And I have personal experience of it working: When I worked in
> Tab (Videoton) my department (computer engineers/administrators
> and a translater-mock programmer) got in the mood of anti-smoke
> - I don't know what triggered it (wasn't me, honest). And in a
> year from the 10 smokers only one left - the boss, and as he
> he had his desk in the same space, he had to go
> out when he wanted to smoke... (He was the party secretary as
> well, I wonder what happened to him, he was actually very
> decent chap). Sorry for being chatty - I don't know what
> came over me... 
>
>
> >
> >
> > biggest problem). When all this is considered, the idea of
> > aiming medical education at children principally, doesn't seem so
> > unreasonable to me. It's less expensive, because it can be added to
> > the curriculum at school, and it's effect also reaches the
> > parents. Furthermore, considering Hungary's current situation, it's
> > probably the best affordable solution at this point of time.
> >
> >                                                        David.
>

On Wed, 7 Dec 1994 16:40:17 GMT A NAgy iStVAn said:
>>--Pardon me, but I think that you should add to your reading list.  You
>>are correct in saying that American liberals accept the market system,
>>but there is a very vocal American left which, in fact, espouses
>>an almost 1920s style of socialism.  Some of these people are in
>>history and political science, but the bulk of them are in colleges
>>of education.
>
>Which means they influence all our younguns to become communists and take
>over America and destroy all our freedom!!! Quick! Get McCarthy back up
>here!! We'll apologize to him, just rid us of these wicked folks!
>:-)
--Not necessary nor desireable!  But do check out the literature on
what is called critical multiculturalism.  The radical idea of social
justice is predicated on a restructuring of the American economy "in
ways that would bring it into greater harmony with forms of
democratic socialism."  Giroux & McLaren, 1989.  Or Alfie Kohn's
"Punished by Rewards" which argues that rewards (A's or other
incentives)  represent external motivation and are immoral because
they create or exacerbate power differentials.  I hardly think
these folks wicked, but I do believe them to be mistaken.

Charles

To Paul: Hating anti-tomato people is racism! The controversy regarding
to mato or not to mato in gulyas is an old one, I did not invent it. I
like tomato in many other dishes, but not this one. One more point of
retroactive clarification: galuska=nokkedly (nockerl, from Italian
gnocchi + Austrian diminutive ending) is based on a soft dough, while
csipetke is hard. Spaetzle is closer to the latter.
        With gastronomical greetings!         Robert Hetzron

On Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:10:15 -0600 > said:
>Date sent:  7-DEC-1994 12:52:46
>
>You should add to your reading list.  You
>>>are correct in saying that American liberals accept the market system
>>>but there is a very vocal American left which, in fact, espouse
>>>an almost 1920s style of socialism.
>
>If they are so vocal, then why would anyone have to do research in order to
>find out about them?
>
--It doesn't take much research.  One does have to go where they are
or read what they write or take their courses.  There are a lot of vocal
people whose voices aren't heard everywhere at once simply because
there are so many people talking.  There is a very vocal group that
still believes in the single tax that Henry George used to preach, but
they, too get lost in the cacophony.  The important thing about the
American Left is that they teach teachers.

>  Some of these people are in
>>> history and political science, but the bulk of them are in colleges
>>of education.
>
>Is there a college that DOESN'T involve education in America?
>
--The glib answer is that most of them don't involve real education.
But, in this country, we tend to separate subject matter into various
colleges, unlike the European use of the word college.  I mean to
distinguish between colleges of education, colleges of engineering,
and colleges of arts and sciences.  Did you really not understand?

Charles

On Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:59:15 -0800 > said:
>Why does not Hungary TRY debt-reduction "Poland style"?
>
>
>Hungary never requested debt reduction. (No surprise did not get
>any)
>
--I do not quarrel at all with the answer that was given here,
but there was a kind of "man-on-the-street" opinion in Budapest
that there was something underhanded about rescheduling debt.
One small businessman told me, "Hungarians always pay their
debts.  Rescheduling the debt would damage our credibility."
This only matters if it is reflective of enough public opinion
that people don't support a leader who would raise the idea
of rescheduling debts as an effective strategy.

Charles

> and maintain that a well-functioning society will reward people
> differentially and that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the rich
> living in more desirable places.  One can be upset about the rewards going
> to the undeserving, such as a communist party elite, but it is best to

Interesting, deserving/undeserving rich... Where you put the maffia
and perfectly legal armdealers? Tax dodgers - practically all
who can afford an accountant/adviser in these matters...
How can anyone "deserve" 100 times more than a qualified nurse?
One of those things I will never comprehend...

>
> Married men are happier and have longer life spans than unmarried, and
> ditto for women, though to a lesser extent.  For those who are familiar
>

Obvious, women are conditioned to look after men better, than the
other way round especially in that older generation.
I've seen data on this, but the effect is much smaller, than that of
poverty. 

> --Not necessary nor desireable!  But do check out the literature on
> what is called critical multiculturalism.  The radical idea of social
> justice is predicated on a restructuring of the American economy "in
> ways that would bring it into greater harmony with forms of
> democratic socialism."  Giroux & McLaren, 1989.  Or Alfie Kohn's
> "Punished by Rewards" which argues that rewards (A's or other
> incentives)  represent external motivation and are immoral because
> they create or exacerbate power differentials.  I hardly think
> these folks wicked, but I do believe them to be mistaken.
>
... common, everyone knows, that if all these liberals disappeared

USA would become even more perfect, but than all those other
undesirables such as the poor should do the same. Is "keep
smiling" in the constitution yet? Thinking about an alternative
really shouldn't be considered? 

Date sent:  8-DEC-1994 08:43:26
>
>On Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:10:15 -0600 > said:
>>Date sent:  7-DEC-1994 12:52:46
>>
>>You should add to your reading list.  You
>>>>are correct in saying that American liberals accept the market system
>>>>but there is a very vocal American left which, in fact, espouse
>>>>an almost 1920s style of socialism.
>>
>>If they are so vocal, then why would anyone have to do research in order to
>>find out about them?
>>
>--It doesn't take much research.  One does have to go where they are
>or read what they write or take their courses.  There are a lot of vocal
>people whose voices aren't heard everywhere at once simply because
>there are so many people talking.  There is a very vocal group that
>still believes in the single tax that Henry George used to preach, but
>they, too get lost in the cacophony.  The important thing about the
>American Left is that they teach teachers.

I guess I'd disagree with your definition of the word "vocal" but now that
you've explained it, I can understand what youre trying to say.  I always
understood vocal to mean that they expressed their ideas in a way that
forced a majority (that they were not part of) to listen.  I guess you
could sort of indirectly claim this is the case, but only if you can prove
all those teachers they educate actually buy into their views.
Using your definintion of vocal, any group that tries to spread their view
fits the definition.  Nazi skinheads, for example, who preach to an
unappreciating American public from street corners, or Marxists, who lurk
like vipers in those nasty melting pot colleges. :)  Even those Hungarians
who favor reabsorbing Transylvania and Slovakia I guess could be called
"vocal."   I still know a few...
        BUT, the point is:  your definition of "vocal" basically includes
all minority groups, so what's the point of using it?


>>>  Some of these people are in
>>>> history and political science, but the bulk of them are in colleges
>>>of education.
>>
>>Is there a college that DOESN'T involve education in America?
>>
>--The glib answer is that most of them don't involve real education.

AGREED!

>But, in this country, we tend to separate subject matter into various
>colleges, unlike the European use of the word college.  I mean to
>distinguish between colleges of education, colleges of engineering,
>and colleges of arts and sciences.  Did you really not understand?
>
This note was dashed off without much consideration.  Good point.
Of course, this one's not much better, since I'm sort of trired.

>Charles

                Auf Wiedertippen (or something like that)

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

What is the Hungary Digest?  Please email me.  Thanx.

Alex (the lo'ko:to:) :)

Paul-

It is really complicated.  It's called a URL (Universal Resource Locator)
basically the email address of a file that is available for downloading via
WWW or Mosaic in the INTERNET.  These are fascinating things and since you
apparently have a modem you could get involved by buying software and getting
on.

Buy a book on the subject INTERNET.  I find one particularly good: Ed Krol:
The whole Internet user's guide.

Good luck

Alex (the lo'ko:to:) :)

On Thu, 8 Dec 1994 14:40:31 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>.... common, everyone knows, that if all these liberals disappeared
>
>USA would become even more perfect, but than all those other
>undesirables such as the poor should do the same. Is "keep
>smiling" in the constitution yet? Thinking about an alternative
>really shouldn't be considered? 

--You miss the point, Red Eva.  Democracies need a healthy Left.
What we have got here is a bunch of intellectuals who talk to each
other in their own language about a vision of society that most
Social Democrats, and even the Labour Party, have long since
discarded as unworkable and unappealing to working people.  I
doubt if many of the American left ever plowed a field, worked
in a factory, or tuned an engine.  Their doctrine is an idealistic
blend of Classical Marxism and 1960s rhetoric.  It is old-fashioned.
It is sterile.  It has no reference to poor people except as they
can be used as pawns in a power game.  Our Left has no program
other than anti-capitalism, anti-Amerikanism (they spell it with
a K), and anti-white, male, heterosexual, religious, etc.
rhetoric.  They do not seek an inclusive society, but merely
are anti.  They are like the dog chasing the VW bug.  They wouldn't
know what to do with it if they caught it.

Your brother in Christ,

Charles

George Antony writes:

> In all, I still consider waiting for NATO to solve the insecurity in Central
> Europe a Cargo Cult

Yes, but please credit some of the pro-Nato side with a little more
sophistication.


> and the probabilities of the West standing up for
> Hungary and of tinned beans and bully beef falling from the sky in Papua
> New Guinea to be roughly the same.

On this I pray we never have to find out.  I would say, however, that
the probabilities would be lower should Hungary "Findlandize" outside
of Nato.

--Greg

>>
>> Also, I don't believe that the chief of the Austrian Counterintelligence
>> Service would make a totally unfounded statement.
>>
>>
>Why not? The present chief of the British one (verrry respectable)
>got the job by scoring good points, by fabricating false evidence.
>(see Weekend Guardian 26th November for evidence).


Also, I don't believe that the chief of the Austrian Counterintelligence
Service would make a totally unfounded statement.

Eve! Of course, there is a chance, that the statment is unfounded.
There is also a chance that I will win on the lottery. We are talking
about reasonableness, and belief. If you doubt every statment, in this
world, because they can be false, what is the reason to read or listen.
  Though your statement is certainly correct, I don't beleive it was
wise, under the circumstances.

With respect Sandor.

On Thu, 8 Dec 1994 08:59:02 -0600 > said:
>
>I guess I'd disagree with your definition of the word "vocal" but now that
>you've explained it, I can understand what youre trying to say.  I always
>understood vocal to mean that they expressed their ideas in a way that
>forced a majority (that they were not part of) to listen.

Sorry.  I was using vocal in the Concise Oxford sense of "expressing
one's feelings freely in speech" or if you prefer it in American,
the Webster's Ninth New Collegiate's "given to expressing oneself
freely and insistently."  One can be, thus, very vocal but not
necessarily persuasive.  Had I known your language I would have
described these people as "loud, but unpersuasive."

  I guess you
>could sort of indirectly claim this is the case, but only if you can prove
>all those teachers they educate actually buy into their views.

--No.  All I said was that these people are in colleges of education and
political science and history departments.  Also in English departments,
I might add.  Of course, most students are unpersuaded of anything that
their instructors say, but some undoubtedtly believe a bit of it.

>Using your definintion of vocal, any group that tries to spread their view
>fits the definition.  Nazi skinheads, for example, who preach to an
>unappreciating American public from street corners, or Marxists, who lurk
>like vipers in those nasty melting pot colleges. :)  Even those Hungarians
>who favor reabsorbing Transylvania and Slovakia I guess could be called
>"vocal."   I still know a few...

--Correct.  But I caused your confusion by using a dictionary definition
with which you are unfamiliar.  My apologies.  Skinheads are very vocal,
but I hope that they are unpersuasive.  I am not persuaded by them.
Marxists are also very vocal, but I find them, too, unpersuasive.  I
still invite you to read Giroux & McLaren.  Or, if you want an overall
critique, try Daniel Bell's piece on America's Cultural Wars in the
June 1992 Wilson Quarterly or David Rieff's piece on multiculturalism
in the August 1993 Harper's.  I admit that this stuff isn't covered
in the comics or the sports pages, but it's not all that hard to
find.
>        BUT, the point is:  your definition of "vocal" basically includes
>all minority groups, so what's the point of using it?
>
--No.  It's not my definition, but a standard one.  And I never said
that these people had no right to speak.  Nor am I making some kind
of anti-minority statement.  There is no pejorative connotation to
the standard use of the word vocal of which I am aware.  It just
means noisy.  Rush Limbaugh is vocal.  I'm not persuaded by him,
either.  My point is using it is that these people are loud.  Of
course, you do have to be where you can hear them, since it is a
big country and you can't hear everyone from one place.  We need,
perhaps, a Hyde Park corner.  Or maybe talkradio fulfills that
function here.

Charles

Dear Sir/Madam:

Please stop sending me this.  I am afraid that your mail is taking too
much memory space for me.

Thank you for your kindness.

Sincerely,

Yoko

Thomas Breed writes:

>  I'm sorry to say I don't
> trust the West in the least when it comes to protecting anything titled
> "Eastern Europe."

Which is why Hungary has moved to "Central Europe."   :-)

--Greg

>>I tell you that I have never encountered
>>anything like that in N.Z. (which does not make this place paradise but is a
>>nice touch, anyway).
And california is not that bad either.
I carried the name Sandor, since I am here, and everybody pronounce it
correctly as Shandor.
My son was baptized here as Istvan, went through childhood and schools
as Istvan, without any troubles. He was only called Steven sometimes
by hungarians, and it really bugged him.

                Sandor

Charles writes:

> "Hungarians always pay their debts...."

I grew up hearing "Hungarians and Finns always..."


--Greg

Eva Durant writes:

> How can anyone "deserve" 100 times more than a qualified nurse?

"Perhaps" because she invents something that saves 100 more lives
than any nurse can?

--Greg

In reply to your message of "Thu, 08 Dec 94 14: 40:31 GMT."
             >
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 94 10:12:31 -0800
From: 

Eva Durant writes:

> .... common, everyone knows, that if all these liberals disappeared
> USA would become even more perfect, but than all those other
> undesirables such as the poor should do the same. Is "keep
> smiling" in the constitution yet? Thinking about an alternative
> really shouldn't be considered? 

Oh, pish.  We are quite tolerant of every kind of crank and kook
here.  Surely you've noted that in your own experience with Americans.

--Greg

Eva Durant writes:

> Sorry, I am lost here - have I said anything about assassination?


Sorry, I am lost too.  Am I a tape recorder?

--Greg

I wrote:

> > In all, I still consider waiting for NATO to solve the insecurity in Centra
l
> > Europe a Cargo Cult
>
> Yes, but please credit some of the pro-Nato side with a little more
> sophistication.

Oops.  Laconicism strikes again.

Add "than to expect Nato to solve all security problems".

--Greg

Nagy Domonkos irja a HIX FORUM 1468. szamaban
> Dec. 24-e're az MTV fo"mu"sorido"ben egy Eo~rsi a'ltal ke'szi'tett
> dokumentum filmet sza'nde'kozik kitu"zni, a ka'rpa'tlajai zsido'sa'g
> helyzete'ro"l, ha'boru' alatt e's uta'n elszenvedett tortu'ra'iro'l.

- translation -

- The Hungarian TV is going to broadcast in its prime time program
- on Dec. 24th (Xmas Eve) a documentary about the life , tortures
- suffered by the Jews in Carpath-Ukraine during and after WWII.


It seems the MSzP - SzDSz cleansing was quite thorough in the Hungarian TV.
How does it fit, beside other things, their constant protest against the
previous government's nationalist program policy, their too much attention
towards Hungarians living outside of our borders? I do not see much wisdom
in this choice. And just what did they show during Hanukkah? Fascist Israeli
soldiers shooting at the head wounded unarmed Palestinians? The Israeli army
tearing down houses belonging to the relatives of Palestinian attackers?
Or, a reconstructed print of "Der ewige Jude" ? And what is going to happen
during Ramadan? Our new satellite will broadcast to Bosnia footages about
Bosnian soldiers raping Serb women? Palestinians blowing up buses in Tel Aviv?

Other pearls from the Hungarian TV's propaganda programming, made exclusively
by our genius editors, who must have lost their minds during 45 years of
serving
the communist regime -

for Romania -
-----------
Miklos Horthy the humanist.

The Roman - Roma continuity theory

for Germany -
-----------
Blonde like Hitler, tall like Goebbels, slim like Goering.

for Slovakia -
-------------
Toth atyafiak - an adaptation by Miklos Duray .

The mountain inbreds - The Carpathian Bell Curve

for Israel -
-------------
Your sons - our heroes : Kun-Kohn Belus, Peter-Auspitz Gabi, Rakosi-Roth Matyi

In article > paul >
writes:
>Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 20:32:22 EST
>From: paul >
>Subject: Re: Pictures of the Hungarian Shield and the City of Budapest

>What do addresses that look like this refer to:
>        http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary

>I've seen htis type of thing often, but don't konw what to do with it.

>Paul
That's for going to a World Wide Web site. I'm not sure what you actually
call the addresses, because I'm still kind of new at it, but you can often
find some cool files, .gifs, .bmps, home pages (kind of like a tourist
brochure), etc. It's pretty cool.

> ----------------------------------------
I can tolerate anything but intolerance.
> ----------------------------------------
        

In article > Eva Durant
> writes:
>Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:56:14 +0000
>From: Eva Durant >
>Subject: Re: Book by Pacepa

>I thought Ceausescu was dead. Inciting for racial hatred -
>still alive. Shame. 

>>
>> Chapter IX of the book has the subtitle "Hatred for Hungarians".
>>
>>
>> C.K. Zoltani

Eva, how do the revelations of the activities (esp. anti-Hungarian
activities) of the Romanian intelligence service incite racial hatred?  I
believe it would be naive for anyone to believe that such activities do not
take place.  Would it be better if we didn't discuss these issues as they
may offend the Romanians or incite racial hatred?

N.Horvath
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
*

Eva Durant makes a sport out of disagreeing with everything which could be
possibly construed as negative when it comes to the "those bad old days of
totalitarian rules." Of course, the "ebado1" was paid, and paid promptly, and
by everybody in those days! But you know, Eva, what I wrote about the tax on
dogs is not an Eva Balogh special. I read it in the HVG, that terrible
anti-communist rag! And since nobody is really interested in the details of
tax on dogs, here it is in the original: "A fovarosi onkormanyzat munkatarsa,
Orban Laszlo peldaul az ebado visszallitasanak a hive, mert ebbol--mint
mondja--utcatisztito gepeket lehetne beszerezni, s hatekony ellenorzo
apparatust lehetne kiepiteni. Ezt a javaslatot tobb szakerto, kozegeszsegugyi
okokra hivatkozva, tulsagosan kockazatosnak tartja. Szerintuk az ebado
kivetese eseten megsokszorozodna a be nem oltott s ezert veszettsegnek
kitett, illegalisan tartott ebek szama." I know the new Socialist Man was far
superior to ordinary mortals elsewhere. For example, in the United States a
lot of dogs are not inocculated and not because of "ebado1." Laziness and the
$30.00 one has to pay to the vet are the real cause. Eva Balogh

Horn and NATO will be the death of me! Every time I open a newspaper or look
through the electronic news something different comes up about Horn and NATO.
The latest is a short news item in HVG (December 3, p. 21). To summarize the
latest: Horn got into an argument with the Polish leadership in Warsaw and in
Poznan with Vaclav Klaus. In Varsaw the Hungarian prime minister suggested to
Waldemar Pawlak es Andrzej Olechowski that the Visegrad countries should
began intensive negotiations with Russia concerning NATO membership. Walesa
announced that "Poland doesn't ask anybody whom it may chose as partner." The
*Gazeta Wyborcza* announced that "inquiries of that sort, behind the backs of
the Western countries, would endanger the possibility of NATO membership."
Horn is planning to use the opportunity of the summit at Budapest to talk to
Yeltsin concerning the matter--said Evelyn Forro, the government spokeswoman.
Vaclav Klaus is apparently of the same opinion plus he is upset over the
Hungarian introduction of higher tariffs on agricultural products.

Given the Russian mood, I can't imagine that Horn was successful. That is, of
course, quite independent from the efficacy of such negotiations.

Eva Balogh

I am a real dog-lover too. During my childhood I was dying for one but my
mother was not too keen on the idea. So, as soon as I could, my second year
of graduate school, when four of us were living in two small adjoining houses
on the shore of the Atlantic, I got a cocker spaniel. My housemate said that
if we have a fireplace we must have a dog too! My cocker spaniel didn't
really look like a cocker spaniel but I loved him all the same. After his
death at 13, I got into breeding basset hounds and in the last 12 years I
bred quite a few champions and good-looking companion dogs. Right now I have
one of them curled up next to me on the floor. She is a red and white and
awfully sweet. By the way, I just learned a new Hungarian word: hazi
kedvenc--I think it means "house pet." Isn't it cute? By the way, my persona
in real life is not very different from my writing persona. Except in real
life I can be quite a ham: I can imitate peoples and accents quite well, and
like to tell funny stories.

Wish you a good semester in Hungary!
Eva Balogh

Date sent:  8-DEC-1994 19:11:28
>
>Thomas Breed writes:
>
>>  I'm sorry to say I don't
>> trust the West in the least when it comes to protecting anything titled
>> "Eastern Europe."
>
>Which is why Hungary has moved to "Central Europe."   :-)
>
>--Greg

It's a neat term, Central Europe.  I usually use either that or East
Central Europe.  It's more accurate historically, culturally, and
politically.  Try and tell that to the average American (the Westerners I
have every day contact with) and they blink at you.  The intellectuals
usually then go "oh yeah, you mean EASTERN Europe."  The rest just blink.
Last Christmas I saw a beautifull interview with an American Bishop.  He
told everyone to thank God that there hasn't been any more ethnic violence
in Eastern Europe, and pray that in the next year there will not be.
It's unrealistic, ridiculous, and unfair to group countries like Hungary in
with Serbia, Russia, etc., but that's exactly what Americans are doing.
Considering the populist result of the recent Congress election, I think
it's going to take a miracle to convince the US govt (at any rate) to deal
rationally with Hungary.

Oh yeah, Charles!  Thanks for the info on definitions!  Have you ever heard
of connotation?  How about "operationally defined?"  Dictionary definitions
are a good starting point, but hardly sufficient to understanding the world
around you.

                        Cheers and good will to men (and women) :)


                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

In article , paul > writes:
> Does anyone here read Romanian?  I found some stuff on the Romanian Usenet
list,
> dealing with Transylvania, but it's in Romanian.  There may be some mention
of
> the Romanian intelligence service plan to assassinate some key Hungarian
> (Transylvanian) political activists.
>
> Paul


I'm reading Romanian Paul; send me the article and I'll translate it for you -
I would
appreciate if you don't send me more than 100 pages! :)

Constantin

PS: I'm a Romanian who believes in the possibility of friendship between our
peoples...
Here in France where I am studying I know a lot of Hungarian students, and we
have
surely no reason to hate each other.

Greg asked:

'Why does not Hungary TRY debt-reduction "Poland style"?'

Hungary's debt is controlled mainly by private Banks, brokerage houses
and securities firms.

I've never heard that a private Bank would voluntarily 'forget' about
payback on a privately placed security. Why would they do it ?
They have shareholders to answer, and why would they do it for Hungary?
There are dozens of countries in much worst financial situation.

The problem with private debt is, that Hungary needs short-term credit to
conduct everyday export/import activities from the very same Banks she has
outstanding long-term debt securities (e.g.: Dresdner Bank, Citicorp..)
If Hungary defaults on the long-term securities, and ruins her credit
rating (whatever that is), she won't be able to conduct everyday business.
No private Bank will provide short-term credit for commercial purposes.

Some politicians in Hungary, mainly on the far-right, believe that there
is a huge international conspiracy of bankers, who will attempt to
"gently influence" the fate of this unfortunate country. They suggest that
if '"benevolent" foreign governments would want to "bail out" Hungary
for political reasons, nothing is simpler for their central financial
institutions than simply "buy up" the debt scattered to a huge array of
small private lenders.'

Don't hold your breath...

-george

It was nice to read Constantin's note about getting along with Hungarians
abroad--this summer I lived in a dorm in Budapest w/ mostly Hungarian
students and a handful of Slovak, Ukrainian, Romanian, and Hungarians
form Transylvania.  Everybody got along well.
I was very impressed by the Romanians and Hungarians from Transylvania whom I
met--all of whom spoke excellent english, some spoke excellent french+
german also. It was amazing to hear how they learned english, how open their
minds were and depressing to see how all the cards seemed to be stacked
against them.
I was particularly surprised at how difficult it seems for an ethnic
Hungarian from Romania to stay/study/work in Hungary. It seemed like they
had to pass many exams to get into Unversity, have permits from their
place of residence and work etc..Are there any plans to change
legislation regarding such matters? I'd be interested in any information
people have on this topic--and people's opinions as to whether such a
system should be changed.

Jyothi.

>>>
>>> Also, I don't believe that the chief of the Austrian Counterintelligence
>>> Service would make a totally unfounded statement.
>>>
>>>
>>Why not? The present chief of the British one (verrry respectable)
>>got the job by scoring good points, by fabricating false evidence.
>>(see Weekend Guardian 26th November for evidence).


Eva, what's your point? You're completely disregarding the
historical and present day hostility of the Romanian government to the
Hungarian activists.  What would Austrian Counterintelligence have to gain
from such a "fabrication"?  On the other hand, Romanians has been trying to
silence the Hungarian activists for 50+ yrs ... often brutaly.

N. Horvath

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
*

I am aware of Pacepa's book, "Red Horizons". If he was or not a honest and
reliable
person is not our matter here (you can't believe that he defected just because
he
couldn't stand comunist stuff, I hope).

Let's be reallistic:
1) the ambassadors of every state have something to do with intelligence stuff.
2) "every building in the country was bugged and monitored"...hm, we're not
reading
        Orwell's 1984 here, how many people, in your opinion, were employed in 
t
 he
        Security forces? That's nonsense.
3) when Pacepa defected, he gave CIA full lists of the Romanian intelligence
networks
        abroad; are you sure they were recreated, supposing that what he said w
a
 s
true?
4) do you really think that DIE was more active than KGB or CIA?? Romania is a
        small country, and not a very rich one.
4) after all, his book was written mostly for commercial purposes - and I have
to
        reiterate that Pacepa isn't at all worth of trust.
5) let's suppose that Ceausescu hated the Hungarians; but that's in no way
relevant
        for the Romanian people - if it would be, what about Horthy?
6) honestly speaking, there is a tensed relationship between Hungary and
Romania
        even nowadays; who else could chenge this state of spirit if not us?

All my appreciation for the constructive attitude of Eva Durant and Casy.

Constantin

David from the Netherlands thinks that I talk absolute nonsense when I
compare the American antismoking campaign to any other kind of, let's face
it, "brainwashing." How successful such a brainwashing is, and how dangerous
it can be if applied to the wrong cause, can be demonstrated by the federal
and local governments' effort at changing people's attitude toward smoking. I
doubt that it cost an inordinate amount of money; in fact, it is very
possible that the American government received quite a bit of money through
the so-called sin tax. While in the early 1960s one could buy a carton of
cigarettes for about $2.30, today the same carton is over $20.00 (if I am
correct). Most of this is tax, the actual cigarette is inexpensive. In
addition, regulation after regulation followed about smoking in public until
most workplaces forbid smoking in the building. Now, the same is being
extended, at least in New York, to restaurants. Domestic airflights are also
smoke free. TV couldn't advertise cigarettes and programs (willingly or
unwillingly, I don't know) didn't include smoking on the screen. Or if there
was a man or woman shown smoking a cigarette, he or she was the bad guy/girl.
This campaign was so successful that eventually it changed public attitude
toward smoking. Today, as opposed to twenty years ago, the poor smoker is
practically apologizing for his own existence. Most of them are so
intimidated that they refuse to smoke in someone else's house and when there
are no ashtrays out, one knows that smoking around there is not welcome. As a
result, more and more people began to kick the habit. Some of them have
smoked for thirty or forty years. It is actually amazing when you start
talking people who are your contemporaries and during the conversation it
turns out that all of you stopped smoking 5-10 years ago although all of you
had been smoking for decades. It is simply the question of a real desire to
stop smoking. The rest is easy. Today, it is a very rare occasion that at a
party one attends there are smokers in the room. By the way, I don't quite
understand what that has to do with living standards as David implies; just
the opposite, giving up smoking will save you money. By the way, I noticed
that a pack of American brand of cigarette (Pall Mall, I think) cost under
$1.00 in Hungary. Half what it costs here. Let's assume that you smoke two
packs of Pall Mall a day. That will cost you 208 forints. Multiply that by 30
and it is quite an expensive habit, especially by Hungarian standards. Now, I
am sure that the Hungarian brands are cheaper but still.

When it comes to eating, again, instead of spending money you are saving
money. You are supposed to eat less meat and more grains and vegetables. In
the last few months I decided that it was time to lose a few pounds. As the
result the grocery bills have been considerably smaller than before. No more
cold cuts for lunch, but soup and salad. Smaller portions of meat, and so on
and so forth. In fact, everybody says that eating like a pauper is actually
good for you.

Third, you assume that people in the United States and in Hungary so-so
different that there is just no way of comparing their reactions to things. I
disagree, people on the whole are the same everywhere, although they may have
a different cultural and historical heritage. People everywhere will react
approximately the same to the same kind of stimulus.

David asks who should take the initiative for a campaign of the sort I just
outlined above. The government, of course! It would also help if politicians,
journalists, public figures in general would stop advertising smoking by
smoking while giving interviews, or their photographs displayed while
smoking.

By the way, Eva Durant mentioned something earlier about American tobacco
companies concentrating their energies on Eastern Europe. She is right. The
American market has been shrinking but the European and Asian are booming.
And they take advantage of it.

Eva Balogh

Thomas Breed writes:

> Oh yeah, Charles!  Thanks for the info on definitions!  Have you ever heard
> of connotation?  How about "operationally defined?"  Dictionary definitions
> are a good starting point, but hardly sufficient to understanding the world
> around you.

Charles is many things, but wrong about "vocal" he is not.

KK & BUEK
--Greg