In >  (Les Gardonyi) writes:

>Sajnos a nyelvtani szabalyoknak egy uj igazitoja van: unix! 
>"Talpra magyar, hij a computer..."
>   -Laci
>
Sorry for my cluelessness, but why did you crosspost this stuff to
soc.culture.romanian?  

Is every Romanian supposed to understand Hungarian?  Or to be smart
enough to figure out the meaning of your message from the only three
words which can be understood without a dictionary: "unix", "magyar"
and "computer"?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

hi, i caught your note asking for help. i'm not an expert, but also
work for a small npo in lakewood, nj. in the past we've had
success when i was working with the hungarian folklore centrum
in passaic. at that time kalman magyar received a decent sized
grant from the nat'l institute for the arts to run some programming
for the museum there. i'm not sure if the n.i.a. is still
operational but its worth looking into. secondly, your nearest
decent sized library would carry a book called the
"foundation directory" which lists everyone who gives $ for
anything. If i see of anything remotely pertinent i'll
give you a callback. good luck  ... bert

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:33:59 -0400 (edt)
From: Julie Schwartz >
To: Julie Schwartz >
Subject: ===> CHEAPEST USA MAG SUB AGENCY - SHIPS WORLDWIDE + FREE 1yrSUB

Hi fellow 'netters,

My name is Julie Schwartz and I recently started using a magazine
subscription club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription
deal with your first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them. 
They have over 1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any
country on a subscription basis.  As for computer magazines from the USA,
they more of a selection than I ever knew even existed.  They have
magazines for most every area of interest in their list of 1,500 titles. 

Within the USA, for their USA members, they are cheaper than all their 
competitors and even the publishers themselves.  This is their price 
guarantee.

Overseas, on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half
of what the newstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines.  On some
titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newstands charge.  They
feel that mgazines should not be a luxury overseas.  In the USA, people
buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes
or hours.  They are so cheap in the USA!  Well, this company would like to
make it the same way for their overseas members.  They are also cheaper
than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the
publishers themselves!  This is their price guarantee.  Around one-half
their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new
members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language. 

Their prices are so cheap because they deal direct with each publisher and
cut-out all the middlemen. 


They will send you some FREE info. via E-mail (the short version (around
40K) of their catalogue, or if you request it the DELUXE LONG VERSION
(around 400K-big and juicey) !)...if you fill out the form below. 

Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student. 
I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my
part-time software business!  Email them directly at:  



(sorry, but they cannot acknowledge incomplete forms sent back. ALSO: 
without a valid home tel. # listed here, they will be unable to send you
any info.  They *do not* sell or rent your personal info. to anyone, but
as they may be calling you in the evening, they do need your home tel. #. 
This is just a quick friendly call to explain how their club works and to
answer any questions you may have.)

*------------cut here-----------------------------------------------*
REQUEST FOR MORE INFO:  please copy this section *only* and email to:  
                                  

Name:
Internet email address:
Smail home address:
City-State-Zip:
Country:
Work Tel. #:
Work Fax #:
*Home* Tel. #:
(without your valid home tel. #, they cannot send the catalogue.)
Home Fax #:
Name of USA mags you currently get on the newstand or in the store:
Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail:
Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when we call you:
Do you want the short (~40K) or long version (~400K) of our 
catalogue emailed to you?:
How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of 
the 
internet that you saw us mentioned in):  Julie Schwartz
072995ECBV
*------------cut here-----------------------------------------------*


They guarantee to beat all their competitors' prices. Sometimes they are
less than half of the next best deal I have been able to find and other
times, just a little cheaper - but I have never found a lower rate yet. 
They assured me that if I ever do, they will beat it. 

They have been very helpful and helped me change my address from the USA
to Finland and then back again when I moved last month.  They are very
knowledgeable about addressing mags worldwide. 

They have a deal where you can get a free 1 yr. sub to a new magazine from
a special list of over 300 popular titles published in the USA.  They will
give you this free 1 yr. sub when you place your first paid order with
them to a renewal or new subscription to any of the over 1,500 different
popular USA titles they sell. 

They can arrange delivery to virtually any country and I think they have
clients in around 35 or 36 countries now.  Outside the USA there is a
charge for foreign postage and handling (on both paid and freebie subs)
that varies from magazine to magazine.  I have found their staff to be
very friendly and courteous.  They even helped me with an address change
when I moved from one country to another. 
 
The owner thinks of his service as a "club" and his clients as "members" 
(even though there is no extra fee to become a member - your first
purchase automatically makes you a member) and he is real picky about who
he accepts as a new member.  When he sets you up as a new member, he
himself calls you personally on the phone to explain how he works his
deal, or sometimes he has one of his assistants call.  He is kind of
quirky sometimes - he insists on setting up new members by phone so he can
say hi to everyone (I sure wouldn't want to have his phone bills!), but
you can place future orders (after your first order) via E-mail. 

He has some really friendly young ladies working for him, who seem to know
just as much as he does about this magazine stuff.  If you live overseas,
he will even call you there, as long as you are interested, but I think he
still makes all his overseas calls on the weekends, I guess cause the long
distance rates are cheaper then. 

He only likes to take new members from referrals from satisfied existing
members and he does virtually no advertising- so you can email me and I
will forward your message on to him as a referral.  When I got set-up,
they had a 2-3 week waiting list for new members to be called back so that
they could join up. (Once you are an existing member, they help you
immediately when you call. ) I think they are able to get back to
prospective new members the same day or within a few days now, as they
have increased their staff.  I am not sure about this.........but if you
email the above form to them, that is the way to get started! 

They will send you some FREE info. via E-mail (the short version (around
40K) of their catalogue, or if you request it the DELUXE LONG VERSION
(around 400K-big and juicey) !)...if you fill out the form near the top of
this message. 

They then send you email that outlines how his club works and the list of
free choices that you can choose from, as well as the entire list of what
he sells;  and then they will give you a quick (3-5 minute) friendly,
no-pressure no-obligation call to explain everything to you personally and
answer all your questions. 

Once you get in, you'll love them. I do.  For more info, just fill out the
form near the top of this message and email it to:  

Thanks,

Julie Schwartz

I plan to catalog the various patterns of expression of the term 
"meaning" in as many different languages as possible. I hope to pin 
down some of the common and peculiar ways in which specific 
languages refer to "meaning".

Please type (if possible) and address your replies to the questionnaire 
below to me:

1) via e-mail to >, if the characters 
you use will not be garbled through computer transmission, or

2) If you fear that transmission by computer will compromise 
your responses, send your responses to me via surface mail at:

The College of Integrated Arts and Sciences 
The University of Osaka Prefecture
1-1 Gakuen-cho, Sakai City, 
Osaka 593 JAPAN


I would greatly appreciate it if you would be so kind as to cooperate 
in my research endeavors. I would also be much obliged to you if you 
would take the trouble to ask your friends to reply to the questionnaire 
as well (so that I can get more data).

Thank you.

                                Kazunori Miyahata
                                



++++++++++++++QUESTIONNAIRE++++++++++++++

WITH REGARD TO YOUR MOTHER TONGUE:

A)  List as many expressions meaning "understand the meaning" 
as you can think of and give a literal translation (an equivalent 
expression) in English to each of the expressions you list. 
[example (in the case of French): saisir le sens = seize the meaning, etc.]

B)  List as many expressions (set phrases) as you can think of which 
you often use in your daily life and which contain a word corresponding 
to the word "meaning" in English (other than those that you referred to 
in A) and give a literal translation (an equivalent expression) in English 
for each of the expressions you list. 
[example (in the case of French):  vide de sens = lack of meaning , etc.]


C)  Please give me the following information about yourself.

Name:
                                                   
Your Mother Tongue:

male/female       Age(if you don't mind):

Address (e-mail/surface):



---

> ======================================================
Kazunori Miyahata

 The College of Integrated Arts and Sciences 
 The University of Osaka Prefecture
 1-1 Gakuen-cho, Sakai City, 
 Osaka 593 JAPAN

 e-mail: 
> ======================================================

In article >, 
(Author123) wrote:

> I'm writing a book on inter-cultural experiences and would like to hear
> funny / humorous experiences that you've encountered travelling or living
> abroad.  I am especially interested in humorous experiences that United
> States immigrants experience during thier first few days in the U.S.
> 
> 
> Please e-mail me * directly * (i.e., do not post) with:
> 
> 1. A short story less than 20 lines (about 1600 words in a 80-column
> computer screen) describing your hurorous experience
> 2a. Your name
>   b. Your home city and country
>   c. The city and country where the experience occured
>   d. Your e-mail address so I can contact you, if needed
> 
> In preparing this book, I may quote your story (with due credit, of
> course).  By supplying me the story, I am going to assume that you have
> given me your permission to quote your story.  If I do quote it, I will
> credit your name/home city in the book.  If you wish to remain anonymous
> in the book, then please state so in your message to me.  Thanks!
> 
> 

I had one with the folks who sponsored me to the USA. At the time I did
not speak any english (although I spoke Hungarian, French, German, and
Portugues).I carried a dictionary and every time they asked me a question
I motioned with my hand for them to write it down,then I looked it up in
the dictionary. They lived in a "city" called [--- City ] population 500
(yes, five hundred) and I was told to look for the "theater" which turned
out to be a 200 seat small movie. The busdriver told me when we arrived
and I was left there in almost total darkness; not a single soul at 10:30
PM. After a while I found the building but there was no doorbell although
the light was on upsters above the theater. Eventually I managed to get in
and I was greeted with lots of friendliness and hospitality. I never met
them before (I met their son in WWII in Europe), but they called me "son"
and I called them "mom" and "Dad". The first thing Mom asked me what I
want for dinner. I motioned for her to write it down and she wrote "how
about hodogs?".After translating "hot" and "dog" I politely declined. The
next item on the manue was "chilly dog"and I shook my head again. Then her
eyes lit up remembering that it was Friday and I was catholic, she wrote
down ""cat fish". I wrote back (with the help of the dictionary) : "thank
you much, me no hungry", and for a few weeks I watched and counted every
darn dog and cat in the neighborhood. I had no inclination to eat dogs hot
or chilly, nor cats fish or otherwise. So much for a direct translation
from the dictionary.

                              ------------------
I wish to remain anonymous the town had a name like "Kansas City" but I
prefer not to mention the full name (only [--- City ]).

Hello,

	My name is Robert.  I am looking for a female confidant or maybe
????.   I'm married, but who knows.  Things happen.  I have brown hair,
blue eyes, and I stand 6 feet 2.  I am well educated, so I'm into cerebral
stuff.  I'm also into good music and exercise.  I live around Little Rock,
Arkansas.  So if you like what you're reading, then drop me a line.

**    PETITION TO MUSLIM GOVERNMENTS   **

			     (Please join!)

	This open letter (enclosed) will be sent to government officials 
	and the media in MUSLIM STATES to request IMMEDIATE ACTION in BOSNIA, 
	including the unilateral dispatching of a powerful multi-national 
	force in addition to ample weapons.  

	Please distribute this petition as widely as possible throughout 
	Internet, in mosques, churches, schools, etc.

	Please join this petition using the enclosed form to send your 
	full name, postal address, and telephone number to the automated 
	processing program at:  

	The form to use (one person per email message):

------------------------- Please cut here -------------------------
Full name=
Address=
Affiliation=
Phone=
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
(Email above from to: )

	The addresses and phones will not be published in the Internet.  
	Only the volunteers organizing this effort and the final recipients 
	will have access to them.

	If you are sending your reply by email, please be advised of the 
	following:

	1) Please enter the required information in each entry without 
	   changing the headings or the location of the symbol "=".

	2) Each entry must fit in one line. If an entry takes more than 
	   one line, please abbreviate it.

	3) In each email, only one person can be identified. Extra 
	   entries will not be read. If you have collected signatures 
	   from others, please send each of them in a separate email
	   to  or collect them all
	   in one file and send them to .

	   If you prefer to send the signatures by the post, you may send 
	   all in a single letter to the following address:
	   
	Behnam Sadeghi
	ECE, MS 366
	Rice University
	Houston, TX 77251-1892, USA

	4) Your email address will be extracted automatically from your
	   reply. Please don't include it in the form.  The field 
	   "address" refers to your postal address.

	5) All the replies collected for this petition will be composed
	   in a single letter, and will be sent to the recipients. Please
	   don't sign it more than once.



		      PETITION TO MUSLIM GOVERNMENTS
			      August 1995


          In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

Dear [Name of Official],

We, the undersigned, are addressing this open letter to you as the 
[representative or leader] of [the name of the country] to request urgent 
action on a matter that is of grave and immediate concern to all humanity, 
especially to the Muslim community worldwide:  the annihilation of Bosnia.

The United Nations and Western states have served as accessaries to
genocide by disarming Muslims in the so-called safe havens, by enforcing
an arms embargo against them, thus preventing them from self-defense
against an advanced European army, and by permitting Serbian forces to
take over Muslim enclaves with impunity.   As a consequence of their 
policies, Muslims are murdered, raped, and sent to concentration camps.   
This outrage has been going on for too long.
  
What has been more regrettable than the policies of Western states is
the inaction and seeming indifference of Muslim governments in the past
several years.  Fine words and empty rhetoric we have heard much, but 
nothing of substance has been accomplished.  It is time to put an end to 
the ongoing horrors, to secure the territorial integrity of the Republic 
of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to protect its population from murder and rape, 
and to restore the credibility of Muslim governments.

We express our support for the current consultations among the member
states of the Oragnization of the Islamic Conference.  We request:


	1)  That a large and powerful multi-national force be rapidly 
	dispatched to Bosnia and to stay there until the territorial 
	integrity of that nation is restored,

	2)  That Bosnians be abundantly provided with the arms they need 
	to protect their lives and honor,

	3)  And that these actions be taken without delay, and without 
	any consultation with or regard for the United Nations.


If your government undertakes these actions, it will have restored the
confidence and gratitude of Muslims and peace-loving people worldwide.  If 
it fails to take these steps, it will be accountable to God and to the
Muslim Ummah.


END OF THE LETTER.

Note:  The opening paragraph in the petition may be slightly altered 
depending on who the recipient is (official or newspaper).



---------------------- Please cut here ----------------------------
Full name=
Address=
Affiliation=
Phone=
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
(Email above from to: )

In article >, T. Kocsis > says:
>
>>Once in Hungary, he probably married a Hungarian lesser
>>noble woman whose name it is not known. She might have
>>been a Szapolyai,
>
>No authentic source proves that.(See: Varju Elemer: A Hunyadiak sirem-
>lekei a gyulafehervari szekesegyhazban, Magyarorszag Muemlekei I.k.
>Bp,1905, 94-97)

I strongly doubt that this is Elmer Varju's opinion. It was Melich's view
that this woman might have been a Szapolyai. Elmer Varju, who examined
and desciphered the impressions of a coat of arms on a grave in the
cathedral of Alba Iulia, supported this interpretation in his "Gravestones
of the Hunyadis," the reference you just mentioned. It is true, no source
clearly stated that Voyk's wife was a Szapolyai but this interpretation
is based on factual data (i.e., the impressions of a coat of arms) and,
therefore, is more trustworthy than any gutt guess. As a matter of fact,
other authors who, according to Held, subscribe to the Szapolyai
interpretation are:

     Junius (Bela Zilahi-Kiss), "The Mother of Janos Hunyadi", Budapest
          Hirlap, June 5, 1902, p.5
     Vilmos Frankoi, "The ancestry of Janos Hunyadi and the Frescoes of
          Vajdahunyad", Turul, 1914, p.479.
>
>LI>1.According to the chronicle of the counts Cilli,
>LI>the elder Janos was born in Wallachia: "it is known that
>LI>this Janos Hunyadi was born in Wallachia..."
>
>Well, this might had been the result of hatred. Cilley was an
>enemy of the Hunyady family. Once earlier he wrote that J. H.
>was "not an appropiate noble".
>

It seems to me that there is a general agreement on the issue of
ethnical discrimination in 15th century Hungary. According to the
conventional wisdom being Olah was not a crime in that epoch and,
hence, I doubt Cilli Cilli was accusing Hunyadi of something
just by stressing his Wallachian origin.

True, blood was shed between the count Cilli and Hunyadis but your
dismissing of the Cilli testimony as driven by hate lacks
substance because there is nothing to warrant your assumption.

>LI>Also, the contemporary chronicler Thuroczi mentioned that the family
>LI>[not Voyk alone, but the "family"] was from Wallachia. This is strong
>LI>evidence, I think, that Janos was born before Voyk's Transylvanian
>LI>marriage.
>
>"Fertur enim, quod rex Sigismundus virtutis nomine genitoris militis
>huius pulsatus illum partibus de Transalpinis suum traduxisset..."
>(Johannes de Turocz: Chronica Hungarorum)

I missed the significance, if any, of the above quote.
>
>LI>However, a 1448 letter written in Janos' name
>LI>by Janos Vitez was long accepted as proof that Hunyadi was over
>LI>60 years old. Thus, if one accepts that Janos was over 60
>LI>yers old in 1448, his mentioning in the original patent of
>LI>king Sigismund simply means that in 1409 he was considered
>LI>among the adult male members of the family.
>
>Hunyad's so early birth was confuted on the basis of some origi-
>nal sources. We know, that Kapisztranoi Janos was born in 1386
>and died in 1456. Hunyadi once tried to talk him out of a long
>and exhausting journey, and hinted at his old age. Aeneas Silvius
>also wrote that the priest died of old age while Hunyadi died of
>illness. Based on these and other sources (which close out that
>he was younger) we can say that Hunyady possibly was born once
>between 1395 and 1400.

Even if in 1409 Hunyadi was only in his teens, according to
the epoch's standards, he was already an adult. However,
to constrict Hunyadi's birth date between 1395 and 1400 based on
his teasing of Capistrano (i.e., Hunyadi called him Old Fart :-),
is inadmissible. You can not dismiss Vitez's letter, actually
Hunyadi's own testimony that in 1448 he was over 60 years old,
and build on fiction. It is safer to confess ignorance.

>LI>Hungarian historians have sometimes attempted to deny
>LI>Hunyadi's Wallachian origin.
>
>JP>This is new to me, because Hunyady's Wallachian background was written
>JP>up even by one of the greatest Hungarian poets of the 19th century.
>JP>But it was treated only on that legend level in the Hungarian
>highschool
>JP>curricula.
>
>LI>Held gives the following references:
>LI>Homan, B., 1936, Magyar Tortenet, 5 vols., Budapest.
>
>I checked this book, and Homan did not say that he was not Romanian.

According to Held, Homan suggested that Hunyad was not
Romanian but of South Slavic descent (see p.179, note 28)

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

The following information is a contribution from Andrew Vadasz :

( http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/Entertainment/Radio/Shortwave/ )

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 
       Magyar Radio Shortwave broadcasts in Hungarian (Szulofoldunk)

       Time: One hour program daily, starting at 0:00 UTC for N.America
       East (8 pm EDT) and at 01:30 UTC for N.America West. (Much
       overlap, as West broadcasts can be heard in the East and vice
       versa, albeit w. reduced signal strength).
       
       Frequencies: 6000, 9835 and 11910 kHz. Of these in the East 9835
       is usually the best 
       
       Reception hints. Summer is usually the best. Frequencies, times,
       change with the Fall equinox (when Europe changes clocks). Fall/
       winter reception has varied from the difficult to the impossible.
       (More about that subject later). Because of the crowded spectrum,
       a digitally tuned receiver is best.
       
       Outside horizontal wire antenna (about 15-20 ft) generally
       recommended. Since the time is not generally convenient for me, I
       usually record the program on tape (one side of a "120 min"
       cassette) and play it back the next day in the car, walking,
       gardening, etc. Uninteresting portions can thus be scanned
       through, sometimes names don't come clearly: thus can be 
       repeated.
       
       Would be interested in your questions, experiences. Andy Vadasz,
       E-mail:  
      
       Programs. Mondays through Saturdays, the broadcasts start with: 

       A nap kronikaja- Hirek, tudositasok". Then "Joestet, itt
       Magyarorszag ! kozelet, gazdasag, kultura." Sundays again "a nap
       kronikaja" then "egyhazi hirado".
    
           
   Specific programs from Aug 1 '95 to Aug 15.

Date.
 1  Kedd. Zold sarok -Koszegi Abel osszeallitasa kornyezetvedoknek
         Magyar Nobel-dijasok: Hevesi Gyorgy. Szerkeszto: Albert Gizella
 2  Szerda Olvasolampa- valogatas uj konyvekbol.
 3  Csut. Postabontas: Valaszol Patonai Adrienne es Vecsei Antonia
 4  Pentek Veteli tanacsok az Antenna Hungariatol: Oeri Andras PR 
    manager
     Ahogyan ma latjuk: Ranki Gyorgy tortenesz. Szerkeszto: Varkonyi 
     Benedek.
 5  Szombat Furdolevel a Monarchiabol. Szerkeszto: Papp Gabor Zsigmond.
 6  Vasarnap Egyhazi hirado: szerkeszto: Fikar Laszlo. Magyar sorsok,
    eletpalyak a XX szazadban. Nyari melodiak.
 7  Hetfo. Tallozo: Szollos Istvan folyoiratszemleje. Mondak, legendak
    nyomaban Lengyel Denessel. Szerkeszto: Papp Gabor Zsigmond
 8. Kedd. Zold sarok: Koszegi Abel osszeallitasa kornyezetvedoknek. 
     Magyar irono a reformkorban: Dukai Takach Judit. Szerkeszto: 
     Koszegi Abel
 9  Szerda Olvasolampa. Szazadunk tanuja: Dobossy Laszlo. Szerkeszto:
    Varkonyi Benedek
10. Csut. Postabontas: Valaszol Patonai Adrienne es Katona Erzsebet.
11  Pentek Film, szinhaz, kiallitas. Jogi tanacsok Dr.Szego Tamastol.
12  Szombat Kulturalis oroksegunk: Lavotta Janos. Varsanyi Zsuzsa 
    musora.
    A magyar tudomany multjabol: Semmelweis Ignac. Szerkeszto: Varkonyi
    Benedek
13  Vasarnap Egyhazi hirado. Szerkeszto: Keszthelyi Gabriella. Magyar
    sorsok, eletpalyak a XX szazadban. Hallgatoink kivansagara. Szer-
    keszto: Patonai Adrienne
14  Hetfo Tallozo- Szollos Istvan folyoiratszemleje. Ahogyan ma latjuk:
     Kisfaludy Strobl Zsigmond. Szerkeszto: Varkonyi Benedek
15  Kedd Zold sarok: Koszegi Abel osszeallitasa kornyezetvedoknek. 


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message has been generated automatically. In case of errors, please,
          contact the administrator of the Hungarian-American List 
                 (mailto:) 

         Thank you for reading the Hungarian-American List !        
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Everyone,
	I am from New Jersey, USA.  I am going to Hungary in a couple of
days 
for my cousins wedding.  After the wedding, I am going travelling by train
through out europe.  I would like to start the trip in Budapest.  If
anyone has any info on hostels or and affordable pensions in Budapest
please e-mail any info  or post a reply. 
				Thanks in advance
				Laszlo Istvan Skoda

From: T. Kocsis >
Subject: Re: Vlasi (was: Re: Re:Nestor & Vlachs I)


>>>Olaszi - Francavilla. Here the Frank - Olasz connection is clear.

>>I provided the above example
>>to suggest that his unsuported claim is derived from
>>a similarly suspect interpretation of Gesta Hungarorum
>>(see Gyorffy, 1970).

>>Francavilla, on the Adriatic coast, is in northern Italy.

>It is called "Mandjelos" now, populated by serbs, its exact
>Latin name is "Franca Villa". Mandjelos is neither in Italy
>nor Dalmatia but in Serbia, in the Mitrovica district, south
>to Danube.

I thought you will bring some supporting evidence for
the Francavilla--Olaszi not for Franca Villa--Mandjelos.
Moreover, isn't Serbia closer to Dalmatia and northern
Italy than Hungary is?

>"Francovilla" which is called Baja nowdays. It is lo-
>cated in south Hungary, beside the Danube. Both 'villa',
>Francovilla and Franca Villa, were populated, at least part-
>ly, by Italian or Romance settlers.

Again, you failed to address the Francavilla--Olaszi issue.
All these  examples prove is that several locations from the
ancient Lombardy, the March of Firuli, Dalmatia, south of
Carinthia, or Serbia, were once called Francavilla.
Subsequently, these places were settled by Italians and,
much later, maybe they were called by Hungarians, Olaszi
(i.e., "belonging to Italians")

I have no problem accepting that a site inhabited by Italians
is called in Hungarian Olaszi. But this fact alone doesn't prove
that the East Franks of the  Middle Danube were ever called Vlahs
either by the  Slavs or by the Magyars. There is nothing here to
build upon the outrageous assertion that the East Franks spoke a
Romance language. The 9th century East Franks spoke German.
This is way Vita Methodii called them Niemtsi and this is why
Charls the Bald addressed them in German. This is why you
chose to avoid dealing with the fundamental issue of your
unwarranted assumption: What language spoke the East Franks ?
They spoke German. Period.

>So we found  nevertheless Romance speaking Frankish citizens
>in the East Frank Empire, didn't we ?

Now, that Romance-speakers were present along the southern border
of the East Frank Empire does not warrant neither the conclusion
that the East Franks spoke Romance nor the assumption that the
Slavs and the Magyars called the Franks Vlahs or Olaszi, respectively.

>Do you still think that the Hungarians had no ground to call
>Vlach/Olasz these subjects of the Franks?

So now the Olasz are not the Franks but Frank subjects,
right? Therefore, Gelou dux Blachorum was not a Frank but
a Frank subject living in Banat, wasn't he? And Nestor's
Vlakhs were not the Franks but Frank subjects, weren't they?

>>By 800 the Germanic-speaking people east of the Rhine
>>had been incorporated into the Frankish  empire: in 843
>>they formed together a separate kingdom under the
>>Carolingian ruler Louis the German. The famous Oaths of
>>Strasbourg are pertinent here because one can prove what
>>was language was spoken by the East Franks.

>Does it mean that the Rhine runs in the Carpatian basin and
>Strasbourg is on the side of the Danube there ? :) :) :)

Comon Tamas, I know you are just pretending to be silly!
Luis the German's people were from Saxony, Thuringia, Franconia,
Bavaria, Alemannia, and Carinthia. The "linguistic" frontier
between Romance and Germanic runs west of all these lands.

Even if the Oaths were swore in London, Charles the Bald
would still addressed the Bavarian soldier in German.

>Yes, I believed that Romanians once called themselves Valch.

Well, this is another case in which I agree with the vast
majority of experts and disagree only with you.

>That's why i've thought somewhat reasonable your claim, that
>in the Gesta Hungarorum the Blachs might be Romanians.

Great! I love the "somewhat reasonable" and "might"
expressions. They prove that you have acquired a deep
understanding of the subject.

>Now you are in trouble, as we Hungarians are in trouble when
>we want to trace our roots back to the steppe. There, every
>tribe was called Turk, regardless of their ethnicity.

There is a provisional explanation for this fact. The political
importance of the Magyar tribe must have been relatively small
and it was therefore incorporated into various coalitions. Most
of the people with whom the Magyars have demonstrably entered
coalitions prior to the "Conquest" were Turkish and this fact
answers your concern.

>It seems
>that exactly the same happened with the Romanians who were
>called 'Vlach' - foreigners, together with numerous other
>volks dwelling in the region.

The meaning of Vlach, as used by the Slavs, was not "foreigner"
but Romance-speaker. The "foreigners" that did not speak
Romance were not called Vlahs but Greki and Niemtsi, remember?

However, the Vlahs were sometimes confused with Bulgarians for
reasons similar to those responsible for the Turks-Magyar
confusion. Also, because the Vlahs were par excelence shephards,
the Greeks, occasionally, use the term Vlakh for other shepherds
of different nationality.

>Just a question: is it possible that there were people who
>nevertheless called themselves Vlachs ? (parexample, in
>the Middle age, the Hungarians called the half-nomad sheper-
>dizing Serbs Vlakh as well..)

The Vlahs lived for a long period of time among the Serbs.
It is possible that some of them have been completely
slavicized. Maybe there is a partial truth in the nationalist
Croat claim that the Serbs are Vlahs who "lost their tongue"

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

From: T. Kocsis >
Subject: Re: Vlasi (was: Re: Re:Nestor & Vlachs I)


>>>Olaszi - Francavilla. Here the Frank - Olasz connection is clear.

>>I provided the above example
>>to suggest that his unsuported claim is derived from
>>a similarly suspect interpretation of Gesta Hungarorum
>>(see Gyorffy, 1970).

>>Francavilla, on the Adriatic coast, is in northern Italy.

>It is called "Mandjelos" now, populated by serbs, its exact
>Latin name is "Franca Villa". Mandjelos is neither in Italy
>nor Dalmatia but in Serbia, in the Mitrovica district, south
>to Danube.

I thought you will bring some supporting evidence for
the Francavilla--Olaszi not for Franca Villa--Mandjelos.
Moreover, isn't Serbia closer to Dalmatia and northern
Italy than Hungary is?

>"Francovilla" which is called Baja nowdays. It is lo-
>cated in south Hungary, beside the Danube. Both 'villa',
>Francovilla and Franca Villa, were populated, at least part-
>ly, by Italian or Romance settlers.

Again, you failed to address the Francavilla--Olaszi issue.
All these  examples prove is that several locations from the
ancient Lombardy, the March of Firuli, Dalmatia, south of
Carinthia, or Serbia, were once called Francavilla.
Subsequently, these places were settled by Italians and,
much later, maybe they were called by Hungarians, Olaszi
(i.e., "belonging to Italians")

I have no problem accepting that a site inhabited by Italians
is called in Hungarian Olaszi. But this fact alone doesn't prove
that the East Franks of the  Middle Danube were ever called Vlahs
either by the  Slavs or by the Magyars. There is nothing here to
build upon the outrageous assertion that the East Franks spoke a
Romance language. The 9th century East Franks spoke German.
This is way Vita Methodii called them Niemtsi and this is why
Charls the Bald addressed them in German. This is why you
chose to avoid dealing with the fundamental issue of your
unwarranted assumption: What language spoke the East Franks ?
They spoke German. Period.

>So we found  nevertheless Romance speaking Frankish citizens
>in the East Frank Empire, didn't we ?

Now, that Romance-speakers were present along the southern border
of the East Frank Empire does not warrant neither the conclusion
that the East Franks spoke Romance nor the assumption that the
Slavs and the Magyars called the Franks Vlahs or Olaszi, respectively.

>Do you still think that the Hungarians had no ground to call
>Vlach/Olasz these subjects of the Franks?

So now the Olasz are not the Franks but Frank subjects,
right? Therefore, Gelou dux Blachorum was not a Frank but
a Frank subject living in Banat, wasn't he? And Nestor's
Vlakhs were not the Franks but Frank subjects, weren't they?

>>By 800 the Germanic-speaking people east of the Rhine
>>had been incorporated into the Frankish  empire: in 843
>>they formed together a separate kingdom under the
>>Carolingian ruler Louis the German. The famous Oaths of
>>Strasbourg are pertinent here because one can prove what
>>was language was spoken by the East Franks.

>Does it mean that the Rhine runs in the Carpatian basin and
>Strasbourg is on the side of the Danube there ? :) :) :)

Common Tamas, I know you are just pretending to be silly!
Luis the German's people were from Saxony, Thuringia, Franconia,
Bavaria, Alemannia, and Carinthia. The "linguistic" frontier
between Romance and Germanic runs west of all these lands.

Even if the Oaths were sworn in London, Charles the Bald
would still addressed the Bavarian soldier in German.

>Yes, I believed that Romanians once called themselves Valch.

Well, this is another case in which I agree with the vast
majority of experts and disagree only with you.

>That's why i've thought somewhat reasonable your claim, that
>in the Gesta Hungarorum the Blachs might be Romanians.

Great! I love the "somewhat reasonable" and "might"
expressions. They prove that you have acquired a deep
understanding of the subject.

>Now you are in trouble, as we Hungarians are in trouble when
>we want to trace our roots back to the steppe. There, every
>tribe was called Turk, regardless of their ethnicity.

There is a provisional explanation for this fact. The political
importance of the Magyar tribe must have been relatively small
and it was therefore incorporated into various coalitions. Most
of the people with whom the Magyars have demonstrably entered
coalitions prior to the "Conquest" were Turkish and this fact
answers your concern.

>It seems
>that exactly the same happened with the Romanians who were
>called 'Vlach' - foreigners, together with numerous other
>volks dwelling in the region.

The meaning of Vlach, as used by the Slavs, was not "foreigner"
but Romance-speaker. The "foreigners" that did not speak
Romance were not called Vlahs but Greki and Niemtsi, remember?

However, the Vlahs were sometimes confused with Bulgarians for
reasons similar to those responsible for the Turks-Magyar
confusion. Also, because the Vlahs were par excellence shepherds,
the Greeks, occasionally, use the term Vlakh for other shepherds
of different nationality.

>Just a question: is it possible that there were people who
>nevertheless called themselves Vlachs ? (parexample, in
>the Middle age, the Hungarians called the half-nomad sheper-
>dizing Serbs Vlakh as well..)

The Vlahs lived for a long period of time among the Serbs.
It is possible that some of them have been completely
slavicized. Maybe there is a partial truth in the nationalist
Croat claim that the Serbs are Vlahs who "lost their tongue"

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

In article >, "Jeliko" > says:
>> >First, Jeliko has mentioned virtually no bibliographical
>> >references that support his interpretation of the
>> >Russian Primary Chronicle.

>I hope you (Liviu) have read all three parts of the responses. Including
>the extensive referncse that the Franks were controlling what is now
>western Hungary.

Yes, I did. Nowhere in the quotes provided I could found something
suggesting even vaguely that the Franks were ever called Vlakhs.
Moreover, in my opinion, your quotes failed to prove that the
Franks controlled the area occupied by the Magyars at the beginning
of the 10th century. The most surprising thing was the
misinterpretation of Constantine's D.A.I. Nobody ever said more
clearly than he that Sviatopluk's Moravia was south of the Danube.
In the D.A.I Sviatopluk is definitely the central figure, and his
Megale Moravia is the main area afterwords settled by the Magyars.
The East Franks did not rule it and this is why they hired the
Magyars, to use them for taking over this South Slavic realm.

Even early Magyar traditions maintained that the Magyars had to
acquire their teritory from Sviatopluk, the one crowned rex
Sclavorum by the pope. According to the legend, the Magyars first
purchased their land from Sviatopluk, but afterwords cheated him
over the price and slew him (see Chronicon Budense).

The Magyars did not fight the East Franks initially. They spared
the east Frankish kingdom during Arnulf's lifetime. 10th century
authors thought that this was because Arnulf had come to an
agreement with them, and it would appear from a contemporary
letter of the archibishop of Salzbourg that the Moravians
thought so too. However, maybe the Magyars  needed several good
years to recover after the Bulgaro-Pecheneg disaster.

>As long as we are writing about who called whom what lets clear that the
>Byzantines consistently referred to themselves as *Romans*, however they
>did call the Frankish lands and particularly the eastern Frankish lands as
>Frangia (actually Fraggia) as late as the end of the X century, at which
>time according to Liviu they should have called them Germans.

I do not recall my saying that the Byzantine called the East Franks
"Germans". All I said was that they spoke German, as proved by the
Oaths of Strasbourg, and that the Slavs living next to them called the
East Franks "Niemtsi", as recorded in Vita Methodii. That the Byzantine
called them Fraggoi it doesn't mean that they spoke Romance. The ancient
Franconia was located east of the "linguistic" frontier between
Romance and German. The English vocabulary includs "wodka" but
this doesn't mean the English people originated in Russia.

Although the concept of Germania was probably available only to
educated Franks, it is no doubt that most of the inhabitants of the
East Frankish kingdom spoke German. From 786 onwards there is the
adjective theodiscus, a latinized version of the Old High Germanic
theod-isk (from theoda, "folk, people", meaning "of the people")
In the 9th century there is a revival of the classic words Teutones,
Teutonicus, presumably because of their affinity with theodiscus.
Theodiscus, the ancestor of the modern German word Deutsch, denoted
a comunity of language, as in the phrase nationes Theodiscae
(i.e., German-speaking people) In order to clarify this issue,
allow me to suggest a couple of additional readings:

Reuter, T., 1991, Germany in the early middle ages c.800-1056.
     Longman Inc., New York p.349.

Wright, R.(ed.), 1991, Latin and the Romance Languages in the Early
     Middle Ages. Routledge, London, p.262.

>Thus the Byzantines records use Franks for the by then Germanized east
>Frankish domains.

Yes, the Greeks called them Fraggoi and the Slavs called them
Niemtsi. Nobody called them Vlakhs.

>It is true that among the Slavs the Moravians, Croatians
>and Czechs who had  immediate contact with the folks to the west of them
>were calling the Germanic population by other names also. However the
>Bulgarians and through the Bulgarian church contact, the Russians did not
>make that distinction until much later and in those days followed the
>Byzantine names.

Excuse my French but this is plain BS. The Bulgars were in close
contact with both the East Franks and the Moravians.

From the Royal Annals, under the year 824, we learn that the Moravians
were in conflict with the Bulgars. The Bulgar representative appeared
before the emperor Louis the Pios in Aachen. In 827, Bulgars operating
from ships on Drava, began a series of raids into Pannonia, were they
succeded in replacing Slavic duces, who had been loyal to the Franks,
with their own underlings (rectors).

The 863 campaign of Luis the German against Moravians was to be carried
out with the help of the Bulgars (Annales Xantenses) A papal letter
also reports that Louis went to Tulln to confirm his alliance with
the Bulgar ruler and to bring Rastislav's disobidience to an end.

Alliances between the Franks and the Bulgars against the Moravians
were also formed in 880s and 890s.

It is very obvious that the Bulgars had close contacts with
the Franks as early as the beginning of the 9th century. To
pretend that the Serbian and Moravians knew that the East Franks
spoke German but the Bulgars thought they spoke Romance (and,
therefore, so did the Russians [sic!]) it is just a desperate
attempt to save the unwarranted Vlakh=East Franks speculation.

>it should not come as a surprise that they are
>talking about Franks or in some cases using the word for Latin speakers,
>i.e. Vlachs.

This theory verge on the the burlesque. What's the problem Jeliko,
is your "boat" sinking? :-)

>By the way Liviu stated that other Byzantine sources than Porphyrogenitus
>did not use Turkoi for the Hungarians, well Nicholas does refer to them as
>"western Turkoi" in his correspondance with Symeon the Bulgarian car
>(archon). As a matter of fact he is writing about a Byzantine, Hungarian,
>Russian, Alan and Pecheneg alliance against the Bulgarians in 922,

Your example fits exactly my claim although you are distorting it.
Maybe it is because you failed to fulfill your part of the deal? :-)
Let me repost that paragraph:

>>>It is incorrect to say that the Byzantine generally described the
Hungarians as Turkoi. Far from being the usual Byzantine custom to
refer to the Magyars as "Turkoi", this custom was actually  a very
restricted one. The custom was introduced by Leo the Philosopher,
after the Greco-Buulgarian-Magyar war. The warriors whom Leo saw
and described during the war of 895 were Kavars who were themselves
Turks. This name "Turkoi" was adopted by Leo's Patriarch [your
Nicolaus, writting in 912], by his son, and by the writters who
compiled their works under the son's directions. Constantine, in his
De Administrando Imperio, was led to carry on the imperial tradition
of nomenclature. The period during which the term was in use
hardly exceeds 50 years (Macartney, C.A., 1968, The Magyars in the
Ninth Century, Cambridge University Press)

According to Macartney, the popular custom among the Greek
chroniclers was to refer to the Magyars as "Ougroi" and he argued
his point using examples from Leo Grammaticus, Georgius Monachus,
and Zonaras.<<<

>This is an example I am refering to when claiming that the earlier
>war between the Pechenegs and the Hungarians was not as great as indicated
>in some chronicles.
>

Hmmmm!? Georgius Monachus recorded that "he [i.e., Simeon]
slaughtered them all" and the Annales Fuldenses mentioned
that "a large proportion of them [was] killed". D.A.I. stated
that the Pechenegs "conquering them[i.e., the Magyars] in the turn
of battle and driving them out, they chased them away.."

The Pecheneg attacked the Hungarian patria, devasted it, and carried
off their women and children. Between 895 and 899 the Magyars,
contrary to their customs, were unable to sustain major expeditions.
A recent textbook on history of Hungary (Sugar) talks about the
existance of a real "Pecheneg phobia"

It sounds like a real disaster to everybody but you.
I might have touched a sensitive spot here, haven't I?
How do you feel about Posada, Baia or Selimber, Jeliko?

I am just kidding, please don't take me seriously:-)

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

In article >, T. Kocsis > says:
>
>>Once in Hungary, he probably married a Hungarian lesser
>>noble woman whose name it is not known. She might have
>>been a Szapolyai,
>
>No authentic source proves that.(See: Varju Elemer: A Hunyadiak sirem-
>lekei a gyulafehervari szekesegyhazban, Magyarorszag Muemlekei I.k.
>Bp,1905, 94-97)

I strongly doubt that this is Elmer Varju's opinion. It was Melich's view
that this woman might have been a Szapolyai. Elmer Varju, who examined
and desciphered the impressions of a coat of arms on a grave in the
cathedral of Alba Iulia, supported this interpretation in his "Gravestones
of the Hunyadis," the reference you just mentioned. It is true, no source
clearly stated that Voyk's wife was a Szapolyai but this interpretation
is based on factual data (i.e., the impressions of a coat of arms) and,
therefore, is more trustworthy than any gutt guess. As a matter of fact,
other authors who, according to Held, subscribe to the Szapolyai
interpretation are:

     Junius (Bela Zilahi-Kiss), "The Mother of Janos Hunyadi", Budapest
          Hirlap, June 5, 1902, p.5
     Vilmos Frankoi, "The ancestry of Janos Hunyadi and the Frescoes of
          Vajdahunyad", Turul, 1914, p.479.
>
>LI>1.According to the chronicle of the counts Cilli,
>LI>the elder Janos was born in Wallachia: "it is known that
>LI>this Janos Hunyadi was born in Wallachia..."
>
>Well, this might had been the result of hatred. Cilley was an
>enemy of the Hunyady family. Once earlier he wrote that J. H.
>was "not an appropiate noble".
>

It seems to me that there is a general agreement on the issue of
ethnical discrimination in 15th century Hungary. According to the
conventional wisdom being Olah was not a crime in that epoch and,
hence, I doubt Cilli was accusing Hunyadi of something
just by stressing his Wallachian origin.

True, blood was shed between the count Cilli and Hunyadis but your
dismissing of the Cilli testimony as driven by hate lacks
substance because there is nothing to warrant your assumption.

>LI>Also, the contemporary chronicler Thuroczi mentioned that the family
>LI>[not Voyk alone, but the "family"] was from Wallachia. This is strong
>LI>evidence, I think, that Janos was born before Voyk's Transylvanian
>LI>marriage.
>
>"Fertur enim, quod rex Sigismundus virtutis nomine genitoris militis
>huius pulsatus illum partibus de Transalpinis suum traduxisset..."
>(Johannes de Turocz: Chronica Hungarorum)

I missed the significance, if any, of the above quote.
>
>LI>However, a 1448 letter written in Janos' name
>LI>by Janos Vitez was long accepted as proof that Hunyadi was over
>LI>60 years old. Thus, if one accepts that Janos was over 60
>LI>yers old in 1448, his mentioning in the original patent of
>LI>king Sigismund simply means that in 1409 he was considered
>LI>among the adult male members of the family.
>
>Hunyad's so early birth was confuted on the basis of some origi-
>nal sources. We know, that Kapisztranoi Janos was born in 1386
>and died in 1456. Hunyadi once tried to talk him out of a long
>and exhausting journey, and hinted at his old age. Aeneas Silvius
>also wrote that the priest died of old age while Hunyadi died of
>illness. Based on these and other sources (which close out that
>he was younger) we can say that Hunyady possibly was born once
>between 1395 and 1400.

Even if in 1409 Hunyadi was only in his teens, according to
the epoch's standards, he was already an adult. However,
to constrict Hunyadi's birth date between 1395 and 1400 based on
his teasing of Capistrano (i.e., Hunyadi called him Old Fart :-),
is inadmissible. You can not dismiss Vitez's letter, actually
Hunyadi's own testimony that in 1448 he was over 60 years old,
and build on fiction. It is safer to confess ignorance.

>LI>Hungarian historians have sometimes attempted to deny
>LI>Hunyadi's Wallachian origin.
>
>JP>This is new to me, because Hunyady's Wallachian background was written
>JP>up even by one of the greatest Hungarian poets of the 19th century.
>JP>But it was treated only on that legend level in the Hungarian
>highschool
>JP>curricula.
>
>LI>Held gives the following references:
>LI>Homan, B., 1936, Magyar Tortenet, 5 vols., Budapest.
>
>I checked this book, and Homan did not say that he was not Romanian.

According to Held, Homan suggested that Hunyad was not
Romanian but of South Slavic descent (see p.179, note 28)

Regards,

Liviu Iordache