In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:

in answer to the following from me:

>>Cheap shot, Dan! The fact that a Romanian author's book is published in
>>French still makes it a Romanian book in my eyes. Interesting though,
>>how many of these Romanian books appear in French instead of the much
>>more widely used English. But then, maybe it's just knowing who's got
>>the ears for your message.
>>Panonescu
>
>That's a $1.95 shot itself. How much are Hungarian ears willing to pay?

As to the $1.95 shot, I hope you didn't mean disapproval by that.  After
all, you are the master of returning insults in kind here.  ... and my
answer wasn't even insult.  I only wanted to save my best shots for
worthier opponents. ;-)

As to Laszlo Tokes and Hungarian dissidents against the Ceausescu
regime, I remember that one of the most important sources of info from
inside Romania to the West for several years was a Hungarian samizdat
publication.  I think its title was "Ellenpontok" (Counterpoints). The
contributors to this publications were gradually ferreted out by the
Securitate by the late '80s.

Joe

in answer to the following from me:
>>>Cheap shot, Dan! The fact that a Romanian author's book is published
>>>in French still makes it a Romanian book in my eyes. Interesting
>>>though, how many of these Romanian books appear in French instead of
>>>the much more widely used English. But then, maybe it's just knowing
>>>who's got the ears for your message.
>>>Panonescu

>In article >,
>Wally Keeler > wrote:
>That's a $1.95 shot itself. How much are Hungarian ears willing to pay?

>As to the $1.95 shot, I hope you didn't mean disapproval by that.  After
>all, you are the master of returning insults in kind here.  ... and my
>answer wasn't even insult.  I only wanted to save my best shots for
>worthier opponents. ;-)

That's fine with me. If I wanted to give a really cheap insult I would
have converted the $1.95 to forints, or worse yet, to lei ;-)

>As to Laszlo Tokes and Hungarian dissidents against the Ceausescu
>regime, I remember that one of the most important sources of info from
>inside Romania to the West for several years was a Hungarian samizdat
>publication.  I think its title was "Ellenpontok" (Counterpoints). The
>contributors to this publications were gradually ferreted out by the
>Securitate by the late '80s.
>Joe

I remember receiving copies of Ellenpontok, but on this side. I copied
and distributed. One of its replacements was Erdelyi Magyar Hirugnokseg,
which had detailed several occasions when thousands of Magyars were
"drafted" to work as forced labour at Cernavoda. It was claimed that
there was a demographic motive in this -- the removal of Magyars from
Transylvania to Cernavoda where the process of assimilation could more
easily be accomplished. Among those "drafted" were some community leaders
so as to break up any social cohesion. The Securitate were good at this
in all regards -- they managed to accomplish the transcendence and
prevalence of mistrust among all people in Transylvania. By the way, I
also was involved in the smuggling out of Hungary of Hungarian samizdat,
Beszelo, and a small Jewish publication of which I have forgotten the
title. 

Here is an interesting article that was published in Release 19/1988
Bucharest, March 24/88 by Erdelyi Magyar Hirugnokseg, entitled; BUCHAREST
BANS PUBLICATION OF ANY REFERENCE TO ROMANIA'S FASCIST PAST.

"Constantin Vaeni, the well-known Bucharest director, is making a film
about the life of Nicolae Iorga. Under the auspices of the so-called
Council of Socialist Culture and education, which acts as censor, state
authorities made every effort to block the use of the screenplay.
Historian Ion Ardeleanu, one of the formulators of the contemporary
Romanian approach to history, personally intervened to change the script,
even as the film was in production. He announced: "When it comes to this
topic, no reference can be made to the iron Guard. And as for Romanian
fascism, in the future we shall forbid any publication concerning that
subject." Consequently, a member of the Romanian state security organ was
present throughout the film's production.

"Iorga is considered one of the founders of modern Romanian
historiography and a major representative of inter-war Romania's
politics, including anti-Hungarian attitudes and irredentism toward
Hungary. He was murdered during Romania's 1941 fascist uprising by Iron
Guard detachments. According to Ceausescu's historian, Ion Ardeleanu,
this fact cannot appear in Vaeni's forthcoming film, which attributes the
murder to common criminals. Likewise the name of Iron Guard leader Horea
Sima cannot be mentioned; instead, the script uses the fictional name
Horatiu Savu.

"Observers connect this new "re-evaluation" of Romania's past with
Bucharest's desire to obliterate the specifically fascist episodes in
Romanian history, even as Romania daily characterizes Hungary's entire
history, and even her present-day policies, as fascist.

"It may be noted that Horea Sima, who now lives in exile in the Portugese
capital, maintains lively contact with his native country to this day.
Ceausescu's diplomats meet with him four times a year, and he was the
guest of the Romanian capital several times during the 1970's

**************************

Interestingly, the last time I was in Budapest (1991) I managed to get
inside the room of forbidden literature kept at the National Library in
Buda Castle. It is on the top floor (attic) of the southwest wing. The
floor below is generally off-limits to anyone except staff, and on that
floor is totally unremarkable door which opens into a snall stairway
which leads up to a steel door. Inside is a windowless, air-conditioned
room filled with samizdat, tamizdat, magnetizdat, and aisles of Horthyist
documents. I was not only lucky to get into this space, but to be able to
photograph it as well. I could hardly believe my good fortune.

The material is still heavily vetted. The samizdat is no longered
restricted due to its threat to national security -- it is restricted due
to its historical significance -- can't have the general public's grubby
hands dirtying up the documents which must last for generations to come.
The Horthy fascist documents were restricted by the communists because
they might point to the names of many persons who continued in various
positions of power from Horthyist to communist regimes. It is similar to
the continuity of many persons who had positions in Ceausescu's regime
and now have it in Siliescu's regime. No doubt there are similar
carryovers in the current Hungarian bureaucrazy.

I met with one man (who will remain unnamed) on three seperate occasions
in Budapest. He was unrepentant recidivist. He was born in TS, jailed &
tortured there, and now lives in Hungary. His life is devoted to the
subterfuge of Romania in one way or another. He is the Hungarian
equivalent of Funar, albeit, not quite as influential, thank goodness.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 worth, and we are talking Canadian currency here
-- you can't get much more insulting than that. It also precludes you or
anyone else from using it ;-)
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

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UKRAINIAN PRIME MINISTER ON CHORNOBYL CLOSURE. Yevhen Marchuk told the
directors of major industrial enterprises in Kharkiv on 22 August that
the Chornobyl nuclear power plant will remain in operation until new
jobs are secured for its employees and the problem of nuclear waste
disposal is resolved, AFP and Interfax-Ukraine reported the same day.
Marchuk said it would cost $4 billion to shut down Chornobyl and replace
it with a non-nuclear plant, which could provide new jobs for laid-off
workers. Ukraine has insisted that the international community,
including the G-7 nations, which have pressured it to close down
Chornobyl, provide the necessary funds to do so. Marchuk added that
Ukraine now faces a severe energy shortage because industry has failed
to pay for past deliveries of coal and fuel. As a result, he said, the
government is short of cash to replenish its dwindling fuel reserves. --
Chrystyna Lapychak, OMRI, Inc.

ROMA SAID TO FORM SELF-DEFENSE UNITS. Ladislav Body, the only Romani
deputy in the Czech parliament, told Slovenska Republika on 15 August
that Roma in northern Bohemia, frightened after the death of a Romani
youth attacked in Slovakia on 21 July, have begun to form their own
self-defense units. CTK reported the following day that the north
Bohemian chief of police claimed that he has no information about these
self-defense groups, and there have been no deaths in the region from
racially motivated attacks this year. Meanwhile, on 16 August Mlada
fronta dnes reported that because Romani tenants of mostly Romani
housing projects in the town of Most in northern Bohemia do not pay
their rent regularly, the town council wants to relocate them all to
flats with minimal facilities for "rent defaulters and unadaptable
people." Romani unemployment in the Czech Republic is calculated to be
as high as 60% to 70%, and in eastern Slovakia nearly 100% of all
unemployed are thought to be Roma. -- Alaina Lemon, OMRI, Inc.

ROMANI FESTIVAL FORUM ALSO FOR POLITICS. The Gypsy World Festival opened
in Hungary on 16 August, with performances continuing until 3 September.
As part of the events, a Romani radio program was broadcast from Sziget
on 17 August, and a television program from Budapest the morning of 19
August. On the opening day, Imre Furmann, head of the Otherness
Foundation's National and Ethnic Minorities Legal Aid Office, told the
press that while there have been no extreme attacks on Roma this year,
his office has acted on at least 50 cases of everyday discrimination and
abuse so far. Furmann explained that forms of discrimination vary. For
instance, some employment agencies place asterisks next to the names of
firms on their computer lists who will not accept Romani employees,
while real estate contracts are withdrawn when the buyer turns out to be
Romani. Furmann urged more explicit anti-discrimination laws, and said
that it was promising that recently more and more non-Roma file
complaints with his office on behalf of Roma. -- Alaina Lemon, OMRI,
Inc.

THE RAPID REACTION FORCE STRIKES BACK. International media on 23 August
said that the new UN force in Sarajevo fired at a Bosnian Serb gun
position the previous day after the Serbs deliberately targeted a UN
observation post and wounded six Egyptian soldiers and numerous
civilians. It was not clear what effect the Force's shells had. The
world body also blamed both the Bosnian government and the Serbs for the
latest exchanges of artillery fire in the Bosnian capital. Vjesnik
reported that a new Croatian cultural center has opened in Sarajevo at a
ceremony attended by political, diplomatic, cultural, and religious
officials. Meanwhile in Tuzla, AFP said that the Serbs shelled the
airbase, which is currently housing 3,200 refugees from Zepa and
Srebrenica. The VOA stated that the U.S. has appealed "to the warring
parties [in Bosnia] to give diplomacy a chance," while AFP on 22 August
noted that Germany has told Croatia that negotiations are the only path
to peace. -- Patrick Moore, OMRI, Inc.

ROMANIAN NATIONAL BLOC ENLARGED. The daily Cronica romana reported on 22
August that three more parties have joined the National Bloc, which is
centered around the chauvinist Greater Romania Party (PRM). Except for
the PRM, all the members of the coalition are non-parliamentary
formations and observers consider them to have little following. The
three new members are the Democratic Progressive Party, the Anti-
Monarchist and Pro-Republican Party and the Party of the Revival of the
Romanian Nation. Altogether, the National Bloc is now formed by 10
political parties. -- Michael Shafir, OMRI, Inc.

MALE LIFE EXPECTANCY FALLS TO 57.3 YEARS. The breakdown of Russia's
health care system has resulted in an unprecedented rise in mortality
rates and a fall in life expectancy, Labor Ministry department head
Aleksandr Tkachenko told ITAR-TASS on 22 August. Tkachenko said the
average life expectancy for men is now 57.3 years and for women, 71.1
years. He added that infant mortality is twice as high as in the U.S.
and maternal mortality five to 10 times as high as in developed
countries. Tkachenko attributed the rise in infectious diseases in
Russia to the collapse of the epidemiological system, an increase in the
number of refugees from other CIS countries and elsewhere, increased
contamination of the water supply, a shortage of medicine, and the fall
in the standard of living of much of the population. -- Penny Morvant,
OMRI, Inc.

FOREIGN OIL COMPANIES COMPETING FOR ASTRAKHAN OIL FIELDS. Eight foreign
firms are vying for the right to exploit Astrakhan oil fields, Russian
and Western agencies reported on 22 August. The candidate companies are
Agip (Italy), British Petroleum, Total (France), Royal Dutch Shell
(Britain/Netherlands), the U.S. companies Chevron, Mobil Oil, and
Unocal, and the Oman Oil Company. The companies chosen will be
responsible for setting up the oil fields in southern Russia and will
receive, in return, a share of the oil extracted under a contract
proposed by Russia. The reserves include an estimated 5-6 billion tons
of oil and 400-500 billion cubic meters of gas. The first phase of
exploration is expected to cost $250 million and the total cost is
estimated at $2.5-3 billion. -- Thomas Sigel, OMRI, Inc.

CIA: NUCLEAR SMUGGLING SMALL BUT REAL. Nuclear smuggling involving
Russian nuclear arsenals poses a small but real danger in the CIS and
Eastern Europe, according to a CIA official who testified before the
U.S. Congress on 22 August, international agencies reported. David
Osias, the CIA national intelligence officer for strategic programs,
said most of the more than 100 reports about smuggling nuclear weapons
or weapons grade nuclear material have been either "unsubstantiated or
unreliable." Weapons grade material smuggling was reported in Germany
and the Czech Republic in the last year, but all other reports involved
scams using low enriched uranium. Osias said Russian officials maintain
a "generally effective control" over the former Soviet arsenal, but "the
break-up of the Soviet Union, the opening of Russian society, and its
economic difficulties have subjected the security system to stresses and
risks it was not designed to withstand." -- Michael Mihalka, OMRI, Inc.
  
[As of 12:00 CET]
[As of 1200 CET]
Compiled by Jan Cleave
Compiled by Victor Gomez

       This material was reprinted with permission of the 
Open Media Research Institute, a nonprofit organization with research
   offices in Prague, Czech Republic. (http://www.omri.cz/)
       For more information on OMRI publications, 
             please write to:  

     Copyright (C) 1995 Open Media Research Institute, Inc.
             All rights reserved. ISSN 1211-1570

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REGIONAL NEWS
-------------

**SERB GUN TARGETS UN IN SARAJEVO**
  A Bosnian Serb gunner deliberately targeted a United Nations
  position in Sarajevo with mortar fire yesterday. However, the
  peacekeepers were not able to fire back because they could not
  pinpoint the location of the mortar.  Meanwhile, the Croatian
  army has stopped shelling Bosnian Serbs above Dubrovnik,
  partly because of swift reinforcement of the area by the Serbs
  and partly as a result of diplomatic pressure from the United
  States. The Americans do not want Zagreb to continue its
  offensive while Washington continues pushing its new peace
  initiative for the Balkans.


**SWISS PLEDGE GREATER RUSSIAN INVOLVEMENT IN OSCE**
  Switzerland is pledging to use its presidency of the
  Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe next year
  to give Russia a bigger say in European security issues.  The
  OSCE has been involved in mediation of the war in Chechnya.
  The Swiss say they will give priority to human rights, global
  security, reinforcing OSCE institutions and cooperating with
  other international institutions.  Switzerland will take over
  the OSCE's rotating presidency from Hungary on January 1 1996.

BUSINESS NEWS
-------------

**HUNGARY'S APV REJECTS POLYGRAM PROTEST OVER HUNGAROTON SELL-OFF**
  Hungary's privatization body APV says it will not reverse its
  decision to sell the national record company Hungaroton to a
  consortium of local artists instead of the local subsidiary of
  Dutch music giant Polygram, despite a letter Magyar Polygram
  sent to APV yesterday threatening to sue the privatization
  authority if it doesn't change its mind by this Friday.
  APV  chose the local consortium over Magyar Polygram despite the
  fact that Magyar Polygram's was considerably higher.  APV says
  Magyar Polygram did not comply with tender specifications.


BUSINESS FEATURE
----------------

**ADVERTISERS FIND THE GOING TOUGH IN CENTRAL AND EAST EUROPE**
  By David Fink

  Central and eastern Europe is, to say the least, a challenge
  for the advertising industry, where demand for space and air
  time far exceeds supply. When one of Russia's leading
  newspapers folded recently, its editors were proud that the
  paper never compromised its independence by seeking
  advertising. That might sound strange to Western ears, but
  such thinking persists throughout central and eastern Europe.
  Many publications seem to view advertising as a necessary
  evil. For instance, publishers often reserve only 20 percent
  of their space for advertising, compared with 40 or 45 percent
  in the United States.

  But that's not the only problem for advertisers. There just
  aren't enough advertsing outlets in some areas. Take the
  market for upscale women's magazines in Hungary. There are
  only two, Nok Lapja and Kiskegyed, which means their
  publishers have a near monopoly. Greg Gransden is the politics
  and economics editor of Business Central Europe Magazine. He
  says this is a very common situation. "Basically the ones that
  are already there can set the rules for advertising," he
  explains. "And that can involve keeping advertising levels
  very low,  charging high rates not or being very rigid about
  the placement of ads and so on."

  Gransden says that in some markets there are sectors for
  which no magazines at all are provided. Poland, for instance,
  could easily support a trade magazine for small shopkeepers
  but one hasn't been started yet. With all this advertising
  demand, one would expect  entrepreneurs to be queuing to start
  new publications. But Gransden says it is not so easy and
  Central Europe is likely to be underserved for a long time to
  come. "You really need to put together a lot of capital to
  start a magazine.  So there are barriers to entry, not legal
  ones, just financial ones, which is probably why were not
  seeing the creation of magazines to fill these niches as
  quickly as we might expect."

  Advertisers who need to reach people in a hurry can always
  turn to television, which is  now the main medium in Central
  Europe since people cannot afford to buy as many publications
  as western Europeans. however, limited competition gives TV
  stations, which are often still state owned, a near monopoly.
  That often sends ad rates soaring. So, it seems that as long
  as demand for advertising space dramatically exceeds supply,
  advertisers will find central Europe a tough place to do
  business.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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In article > Wally Keeler,
 writes:
>The Horthy fascist documents were restricted by the communists because
>they might point to the names of many persons who continued in various
>positions of power from Horthyist to communist regimes.

This is not that touchy. The really sensitive is the list of
those people who were in charge under the Szalasi regime
and continued under the Communists. I know one such
individual, a survivor artist, who was the soldier of
Szalasi then politician in the after '45 democratic
coalition then soldier/politician under  Rakosi's
stalinist era, then took part in the '56 revolution then
immigrated to USA and lived there as hero of '56 and
tought history at university level than returned to
Hungary around '89 and  became a Member of Parlament
again.

Tamas

 (John Opre ) wrote:
>My Grandfather came to America in approx. 1910! Our family name is 
>Opre but some of the family think that the name may have been shortned
>when they arrived in New York. However his brothers came over a few
>years earlier and they went by Opre also. Does anyone know of the name
>Opre existing today in Hungary or some other name that it may be
>derived from. Any help will be appreciated.
>
>                                     John Opre
>                                       

Whups....  Must have hit the wrong key!  I'm a little new at this.... :-)

What I wanted to say at the end of my last post was that I am a first
generation Hungarian American.  That is to say, all my relatives were
born in Hungary.  Good luck with your quest....

i have inadvertently sent a message (reply to wally part 2 - re. 
     tomescu poems) to sc-magyar.  it belongs only in sc-romanian.  my 
     apologies.
     
     -cristian

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
     >
      wrote:
     >>I know i'm not wally the poet,
     >
     >Thank god for that
     
     why?  i hope you'd be not afraid of competition...:-)
     
     >>and don't be shy with those rotten eggs...;->
          
     >It's not that anyone is shy; the rotten eggs are being saved for a 
     >more worthy target.
     
     oooh, but what target could be worthier than defending the people's 
     republic of poetry with rotten stanzas (i mean eggs)? :-)
     
     >>this one was conceived precarioulsy while driving with one hand, 
     >>writing with the other, keeping the right eye on the freeway and the 
     >>left one on the paper, 
     
     >Next time, if you want to use bandwidth, give us a poem that was 
     >quality-written, one that you spent some time with cleaning up and 
     >making presentable. Giving birth to a poem under the circumstances 
     >you describe is demeaning to everyone. When a human is born, it is 
     >not just dropped on the ground with the mother walking away. The 
     >child is cleaned, swaddled, and cared for. If your idea of a poem is 
     >to treat it like a cigarette butt flicked out of a 110kph 
     >auto-window, then you are in sorry need of Poetry Appreciation 101.
     
     point taken graciously.  
     
     however, even if i have not taken any poetry classes (including Poetry 
     Appreciation 101, as you suggest), i happen to have a different 
     opinion on how poems can be created and presented.  i feel that the 
     original gut feeling, the oooommmpph, the creative process, the 
     viscerality (if you will), everything that makes it genuine can be 
     lost by spending too much time cleaning its diapers.  an analogy that 
     comes to mind is a wildly_grown thicket versus a manicured garden.  i 
     prefer the thicket.  its realness.  its disorderliness.  its entropy.  
     its danger. ITS IMPERFECTIONS.  because the world, everything around 
     us is not perfect.  and it will never be.  and i fuckin' like it like 
     this.  and in most likelyhood it does not give a fuck whether i like 
     it or not, anyway ;-)  
     
     and this is not to say that i disagree with your suggested approach.  
     it is just the way i feel and operate right now in this particular 
     creative process.  no comparison intended, but i believe that the beat 
     writers (kerouac, ginsberg, ferlinghetti, snyder) had this approach in 
     their creative modus operandi as well. 
     
     btw, i deeply revere emily dickinson for her emotional depth conveyed 
     in such lyrical simplicity.
     
     other than this, i appreciate your candid comments:
     
     >stepping on a broken bottle of spilled dreams at Mission and 16th and
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     >This is a good line
     
     >>hearing the day's gospel from
     >>a blaring car radio of a lone brother
     >>breathing intently into a broken mirror that's seen better faces but 
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     >This is a damn good line, image and concept; pity it is preceeded by 
     >and followed by scribbling
     
     >>not better times and
     >>so I keep walking
     >>serenading a tuneless tune by
     >>the snake-charming piper in me of
     >>lost childhood innocence
          
     well wally, the ending may not mean much to you but it has a hell of a 
     significance to me.  you know, poetry is such a personal thing.  it is 
     such a small and quick peak into one's emotional maelstrom that if an 
     outsider tries to shape it into his/her own vision, it may lose the 
     original relevance upon which it was created in the first place.  i 
     hope you understand what i mean.
     
     i usually am interested in the process of creation as well, not only 
     in the end product itself.  i deeply think that THE WHOLE really shape 
     the artistic boundaries of any work of art.  you need THAT dimension 
     too, in my opinion.  otherwise its reason for existence is lost.  try 
     to imagine a tree without soil and roots...
     
     what else?  
     
     yeah, your stanza_spewing doomsday machine.....are you sure you have 
     enough ammunition.....or better, are you sure you are using it on the 
     right target?...
     
     amicably,
     
     -cristian

On 23 Aug 1995, CLARY Olivier wrote:

> In article > 
du (Hungarian-American List) writes:
> >We have started to archive the 
> >Hungarian Usenet group  news:soc.culture.magyar under 
> >             http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/

> Non-HIX articles of soc.culture.magyar are already archived at hix.mit.edu:

Olivier,
I took a look at both URLs.
The format and purpose of the two archiving sites are seemingly 
different. You will be able to tell that if you take a look at the 
http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/ page. This page provides 
access to soc.culture.magyar via the "mailto" program to 
for those of with no USENET access to soc.culture.magyar . 
Take care,
Gotthard

p.s.
having more archive sites does not mean chaos, 
it means more choices :-)

--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

Well, for what it's worth, my Aunt's first husbands last name was Opra.
Both were born in Hungary and came to the US around 1956-1957.  In
Hungarian, Opra is pronounced "Oh-prah" with a long O.  BTW, I am a first

In article > 
 (Hungarian-American List) writes:
>We have started to archive the 
>Hungarian Usenet group  news:soc.culture.magyar under 
>             http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/
[...]
>[ The Hollosi articles are not going to be shown in the
>  archive, since they are available at http://hix.mit.edu/ ]

Non-HIX articles of soc.culture.magyar are already archived at hix.mit.edu:
 http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/arch/ (names SCM.*) for the last month
 http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/ARCH/SCM/ before that, starting May 25th, 1995
-- Olivier

ok wally.
     
     let's take a brake from the usual plethora of insults.  not because 
     one of us would give up this entertaining form of (mis)communication 
     out of lack of resources ;-), but rather because of its ludicrousness 
     in the context of this discussion.
     
     first. ok, i admit. i have made a nasty statement about tokes, a 
     statement that i (for now) cannot back it up with evidence.  i suppose 
     my overall skepticism and cynical attitude (also fueled by some recent 
     personal events) had something to do with it ;-).  but this does not 
     mean that i accept the view that tokes was not implicated at any level 
     with the nomenklatura and the securitate. the support brought over to 
     this claim by you and liviu are not enough proof (for me).  however, 
     it would be fair to say that, at this stage, i just simply do not know 
     enough to make a judgement pro or con.
     
     commonsense tells us to gather as much information upon the subject as 
     possible, dissect and discern the information with a candid and 
     objective mindset, and then (maybe!) one can have a clearer picture 
     upon the issue.  and i say maybe because THERE IS ALWAYS THE 
     POSSIBILITY OF VITAL INFORMATION BEING UNAVAILABLE TO ANY OF US.  so 
     this is where a healthy dose of skepticism comes into play.  
     
     in your posting, you discount the tokes-related reference mentioned by 
     dorin taranul, comparing it to a harlequin romance novel.  although i 
     find your comparison funny (from a literary standpoint), it is of no 
     value to many of us who do not know enough about tokes.  with all due 
     respect to your opinion, i find it necessary that each interested 
     individual makes up his own mind by consulting ALL AVAILABLE MATERIAL, 
     including the ones you label as literary harlequins or with which you 
     do not agree.  although you may have more knowledge on the subject 
     than i or others here on scr/scm, you (or anybody else here) are 
     hardly qualified to be our political mentor(s).  bullying people into 
     submission and acceptance never works, wally - except to satiate a 
     starving ego.  if your purpose is to share with us your knowledge 
     about laszlo tokes, do so in a matter_of_fact, restraint manner.  you 
     will certainly not alienate your audience.  of course, these remarks 
     apply to everybody on this forum, including myself.  there are too 
     many examples of arrogant bullies here on scr that tried 
     (unsuccessfully) to shove down our throats their theories (historical 
     or not - you know who you are ;-) in a very hitler-esque approach.  
     so, i guess (and as miha said once), that ugly little hitler (or 
     stalin) resides in each of us, buried somewhere between the anus and 
     the big intestine, and showing his ugly little face once in a while.   
     
     my statement about tokes was in part fueled by the well-known fact 
     that some (many) members of the romanian clergy were collaborating 
     with the ceausescu regime and were reporting directly to securitate 
     officers on romanians in romania and abroad.  i have proof of this 
     fact.  
     
     the other reason behind my message was caused by my (uneasy) feeling 
     that all eastern european "revolutions", be they velvet or lead, were 
     not fully a spontaneous combustion of accumulated rage against the 
     communist regimes, but rather a well-orchestrated change of direction 
     directed from moscow and washington.  the rage of the people was there 
     alright, but it was used to accomplish this shift in the geo-political 
     structure.  i believe (again, this is purely a feeling) that the 
     spheres of influence are being re-drawn again and, whether  people 
     agree or not, it is of minimal importance to those that are building 
     the new_world_(dis)order.  in this light, i have a tendency of 
     regarding any leading "revolutionary" figure as a pawn in a much 
     bigger game.  but, as i said, i do not have any proof of tokes being 
     such a pawn.  
     
     there is no doubt that ceausescaca's fall (to use your "aphorism") was 
     a blessing for the large majority of the inhabitants of romania.  it 
     could hardly have been worse (genghis-khan and his clan aside :-).  
     however, the aftermath of 50 years of opression (along with the 
     not_so_insignificant effects of hundreds of years of brutal existence 
     at the periphery of central europe) is a legacy that romanians (of all 
     ethnic backgrounds) will live with for many generations.  and 
     unfortunately, the changes that sweep the central eastern european 
     countries at hurricane speeds are only a light breeze in romania and 
     its south-east neighbors.   
     
     contrary to what you believe, i do not have the slightest resentment 
     that tokes, a ethnic hungarian, is considered a leading spark of the 
     romanian "revolution".  my maternal grandmother was of magyar 
     ethnicity, and i suspect many romanians are more or less of mixed 
     ethnic background.   ethnic appertainance is a non-factor to me.  
     cultural background is.  and mostly as a bridge of understanding 
     rather than a tool for building barbed-wire fences of intoleration.  
     
     i am sorry and disturbed by your statement that "i am a bully kicking 
     down sand castles built by children".  it was never my intention at 
     that.  unfortunately, prolonged rounds of verbal shit_kicking end up 
     changing the virtual appearance of your opponent, thus creating the 
     wishful(?) gestalt of your imagination.  
     
     and last but not least, i wish to attribute the "spineless jellyfish" 
     description of me to a fit of anger caused by my un_substantiated and 
     clear insinuation (for which i have already apologized).  because 
     attaching such a qualifying trait to a person you have no idea about 
     (except from these silly little games on scr/scm) is like asking a 
     blind man tell you the color of the clothes you're wearing.  also,  
     just because most (if not all) of us here on scr were not active 
     dissidents, freedomfighters, or any kind of active participants in the 
     '89 events (including yourself),does not entitle you (or anyone else) 
     of labeling us cowards.  it is simply incorrect and you know it.  i 
     wish to think it was written in a angry poetic fervor.
     
     amicably,
     
     -cristian 
     
     ps: reverting a little to the joking modus operandi, i will quote you:
     
     >Have you been reading Romania Mare again? ;->
     
     well, i have not, but may i borrow it after you're finished with 
     it...;-)     
     
      
     
     
     
       
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
      (Wally Keeler) wrote:
     
     >>cristian  wrote;
     >>>tokes' impact (for all his "merits" - especially those acquired in 
     >>>the securitate...;->)
     
     >>cristian  adds;
     >>>second, your remarkable aptitude of drawing stupid conclusions 
     >>>shines under the scr spotlight again.
     
     >Your conclusion about Tokes is far in excess of stupid and is a black
     >hole under the SCR spotlight. Perhaps you can enlighten us -- what 
     >were the "merits" you allude to? Have you been reading Romania Mare 
     >again ;->
     >Put up or shut up!
     
     
     
     
     
     
     cristian  wrote;
     >"ride ciob de oala sparta" (quick, quick, grab your 
     >dictionary.....you'll learn a wonderful play_on_words...)
     
     But that would take some extra effort and I haven't read anything by 
     you
     that would make that effort worthwhile.
     
     >>In the book, "In The Eye of the Romanian Storm" by Felix Corley & 
     >>John Eibner, published by Fleming H. Revell, ISBN 0-8007-5379-8, is 
     >>the following passage on pages 180-82.
     >>[txt deleted]...
     >>Erno was found dead a few days later, his face beaten to a bloody 
     >>pulp, by the Securitate no doubt, the same organization that the 
     >>three Romanian idiots above believe Laszlo Tokes belongs to. 
     >the extract above does not prove anything. 
     
     but proves more than your slanderous post claiming Tokes to be
     Securitate-trained.
          
     >as far as i knew, tokes was involved with the securitate in one way 
     or 
     >another.
     
     But you know bugger all in this regard. He "was involved with the
     Securitate in one way or another"; he was on the receiving end of a 
     shit-
     kicking by the Securitate. There is more substance to this fact, than
     your slander.
     
     >i may be wrong.
     
     And you most certainly are.
     
     >but you have not proven it either.
     
     The obligation is not on me to prove. Justice expects that everyone is
     innocent until proven guilty. I made no charges against Tokes. I did 
     not
     accuse Tokes of anything. I did not slander his reputation. However, 
     in
     jurisprudence, those who do, have to prove their case. In this 
     instance
     you have simply made a dirty accusation out of thin air and posted it
     with the puffed chest of a bully kicking down sand castles built by
     children. oooooooooo, what a tough guy!
     
     >and neither iordache in one of his previous posts.  
     
     Oh yes, point the finger at someone else; if everyone jumped off a 
     ledge
     onto a bunch of stakes, would you follow? If everyone wanted to clear
     their face of acne by rubbing shit on it, would you? This was your
     arguement to me a few posts back wasn't it? Touche.
          
     >anyway, i do not wish to participate in this particular subject 
     anymore.
     
     That's your perogative, and the rest of us are glad of it.
     
     >and allow me to be a cynic, will you?
      
     You'd like that I bet. Request denied.
         
     >oh yes, i almost forgot - gross insults like the one you used above 
     
     An insult, a gross insult at that, is far preferential than a cruel
     slander which you posted against Tokes.
     
     >will only undermine your credibility, intelligence, and your veneer 
     of 
     >self-alledged creativity. 
     
     My self-alleged creativity is self-alleged, but additionally, it has 
     been
     confirmed by a goodly number of substantial peers. Neither you nor 
     anyone
     else on SCR that I have encountered has the literary qualifications to
     discount it. Pffft! to you. 
     
     If you make groundless claims that Tokes=Securitate, then I'd worry 
     about
     your credibility. You had credibility with me until you made that
     posting, but, of course, whether you had my credibility or not is of
     absolutely no importance. What is important, is a man's good 
     reputation,
     Tokes did in Romania what spineless jellyfish like you in SF did not. 
     I
     salute him.
     -- 
     Wally Keeler                                    Poetry
     Creative Intelligence Agency                    is
     Peoples Republic of Poetry                      Poetency

In article >,  
says...
Kell-e a SHARE.EXE vagy nem?

Latva a zavarodottsagot,nem tudom megallni hogy hozza ne szoljak, bar en 
eddig csak olvasgattam, soha semmire nem valaszlotam, es nem is tudom hogy 
hogyan kell. Remelem azert eljut, es talan valaki elmagyarazza a helyes 
format is.

A SHARE.EXE programot csak azoknak kell betölteniuk, akik Windows 3.0 vagy 
3.1 verziot hasznalnak. Aki a 3.11 es verziot, (Windows for Workgroups) 
hasznalja annak nincs ra szuksege, mert egy VSHARE.386 nevu virtualis 
device-ot hasznal a Windows.

Microsoft tobb alkalommal adott ki magyarazatot az ugyben.

//Laszlo

Hello !

I am a Danish linguist and my forename is Flemming. I would very much

like to CORRESPOND with nice and first of all _interesting_ people from 

Eesti, Magyarorszaag or Czechy (Bohemia), aged around 23 to 35 - I'm 31.

Please write introductory letter and send it by e-mail to:

				******* <  > *******

Thank you very much in advance. I look forward to hearing from you.

Kindest regards,

	FLEMMING RAVN NEFT
		at
	Aarhus City, Denmark