Subject: Re: Who is a Hungarian?
From: George Lazar, 
Date: 22 Jul 94 02:00:38 GMT
In article > George Lazar,
 writes:
>d.a. writes:
>
>'...anyone who has at least one grandparent who is/was a hungarian
citizen
>is considered a "hungarian national" and is entitled to hungarian
>citizenship. that at least was the law in the mid-eighties.'
>
>
>How about the Greeks, Bulgarians in Hungary ... they are citizens without
>Hungarian grandparents.
>
>To be a citizen of Hungary doesn't require to be a 'hungarian national'
..
>as far as I know...

of course not and i made no such claim!
the above was a sufficient but not necessary condition in response to
a question from someone born of hungarian ancestry outside hungary.


d.a.

Marc,
I have no idea whether Horn, Kuncze, etc. have e-mail addresses or not,
but I would assume President Clinton's office will probably know.  His
e-mail address is:      Try it.

Attila

Joe Pannon, momentarily confused, writes as follows:

> As a matter of fact, there was hardly anything I could strongly
> disagree with in Fencsik's latest post.  (Surprise, surprise!)

Joe then goes on to rehash his peculiar version of the media wars of
1990-94.  Joe of course is free to agree with me any time, but I would
point out that we object to rather different things in Horn's behavior.
The MIEP-sponsored VP's of the state radio and television were gone
by the time the Socialist-led government took power.  As you may remember,
they were let go by the lame duck Boross government.  (By the way, I think
this little transaction should also be researched by some enterprising
investigative journalists.  I would be interested to know what kind of
political payoff, if any, Boross might have received for this little
favor to the incoming government.)

Given that the two nincompoops were already gone, why was Horn in such
a rush to get the new chairmen appointed?  Why could he not allow the
six-party consultations go on for a few weeks?  Who knows, they might
even have come to an agreement.  Negotiations have their own logic, and
the opposition may actually have settled for a mutually acceptable set
of candidates.  If that was not possible, Horn could still have allowed
the negotiations to fail, and paint the opposition as a bunch of
obstructionists.  Or he could have arranged a walk-out by the opposition
and show the entire world he was bending over backwards to be
accommodating.  Then, he could have named his guys anyway.  The fact
that he did not even bother to go through the motions is what I find
alarming.  It shows the man has little patience for democratic niceties.
Very bad sign.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

BUDAPEST (Reuter) - Budapest's historic Matthias church was
damaged in a bomb blast Saturday, the latest in a spate of
explosions which police said could be the work of Serbian
terrorists.
         A small time bomb placed atop one of the Gothic church's
iron gates exploded shortly after four a.m. (2200 EDT), police
spokesman Zsolt Sogor told Hungarian radio.
         The explosion damaged three valuable stained glass windows
and brought down stones weighing as much as 22 pounds, he said.
No injuries were reported.
         The blast took place within sight of Hungary's parliament
building, which was slightly damaged by a time bomb June 11.
         Asked if police saw a connection between the two blasts and
a third attack on a church in the southern town of Szeged, Sogor
said: ``We have to test the traces (of explosives) and then we
can say it with certainty. We cannot exclude links between
Szeged, parliament and the present case.''
         He said police were examining the possibility that Serbian
terrorists had planted the bombs to pressure Hungary not to
extradite to Serbia alleged multiple murderer Marinko Magda, who
is in Hungarian custody. Magda is wanted for killings in both
countries.
         The Matthias church is one of Budapest's prime tourist
attractions. Built in the Middle Ages, it is the church where
King Matthias married and where Hungarian kings have
traditionally been buried.

        BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) -- An explosion destroyed the back
entrance of the landmark Matthias Church early Saturday and
shattered stained-glass windows in the main sanctum.
        The neo-Gothic church, which dates back to 1247, was the site of
coronation ceremonies for Hungary's monarchs over the centuries.
        The predawn blast caused no injuries, but destroyed a back door
of the church and part of the steps leading down to the crypt, as
well as the windows.
        Police posted a $30,000 reward and set up checkpoints on roads
leading out of the capital, the state news agency MTI reported.
        Authorities were not ruling out a connection between Saturday's
blast and two explosions in June, including a still-unsolved blast
at the Parliament building, national police spokesman Zsolt Sogor
told MTI.
        A $50,000 reward was offered in connection with the June 11
explosion that destroyed the Parliament building's back entrance.
The other blast occurred June 1 at a bus stop near a church in the
southern town of Szeged.
        MTI said police were looking for a bluish-grey Ford seen in the
vicinity of Matthias Church shortly before Saturday's explosion.
        New York Times columnist Abe Rosenthal, who was staying at a
hotel next door, said he was awakened ``by a tremendous blast. ...
        ``Shortly there was a wail of police sirens and then we learned
it was an explosion,'' he said.
        The church, situated on the Buda hill overlooking the Danube and
the Pest side of the city, is one of the most treasured landmarks
in Budapest. First written records of it date back to 1247 and it
has been added to and rebuilt over the centuries.
        During the Ottoman occupation in the 16th century, it was
restyled to serve as a Muslim temple.
        It gained its present neo-Gothic form in the last century.

>          The Matthias church is one of Budapest's prime tourist
> attractions. Built in the Middle Ages, it is the church where
> King Matthias married and where Hungarian kings have
> traditionally been buried.

I'm not sure if King Matthias was really married there but I am pretty
sure that the Hungarian kings have NOT been traditionally buried there,
They were in Szekesfehervar.

I think the AP report's got it better than Reuters.

Joe Pannon

I wrote this on July 21 but it disappeared in the bowels of the Internet
without trace. So, here it is.

July 21, 1994:

Thanks to Zsuzsa Csergo for copying parts of Ga1spa1r Miklo1s's article,
entitled "Socialism, Capitalism and Modernity" for our benefit. The paragraph
below, to my mind, is an absolutely brilliant description of current
Hungarian
attitudes:


>All the surveys and polling data show that public opinion in our region
>rejects dictatorship, but would like to see a strong man at the helm;
>favors popular government, but hates parliament, parties, and the press;
>likes social welfare legislation and equality, but not trade unions; wants
>to topple the present government, but disapproves of the idea of a regular
>opposition; supports the notion of the market (which is a code word for
>Western-style living standards), but wishes to punish and expropriate the
>rich and condemns banking for preying on simple working people; favors a
>guaranteed minimum income, but sees unemployment as an immoral state and
>watns to punish or possibly deport the unemployed.  In one Hungarian poll,
>more than 80 percent of the respondents condemned communism as "evil", but
>when asked to name their favorite politicians, listed four former
>communist leaders among the top five.  These results could be dismissed as
>a reflection of passing confusion, one of the temporary 'difficulties of
>transition.'  To my mind, however, that would be a grave mistake.  The
>opinions summarized above are characteristic of a situation that has not
>essentially changed since the emergence of revolutionary socialism.

A day after Gabor Fencsik and Andras Kornai had discussed Tama1s's political
philosophy, I received the latest issue of *168 o1ra* and in it a very
interesting interview with him. He just returned to Hungary from the United
States where he taught a gradute course at the University of Chicago in the
last few months. Let me quote a few passages:

"Q: What is your opinion of the recent developments?
A: It became clear years ago that the socialists would win. I am not terribly
happy about this, but I can't say that I am surprised. Who didn't know this?
Maybe the Hungarian political scientists didn't, but everybody else did. It
is now clear that the political change four years ago was not a revolutionary
turn but only a dramatic moment of a reformistic development. I find it
perfectly authentic and honest that people turned against the most obvious
forms of tyranny; they didn't wish the most aggressive forms of bureaucratic
paternalism; they wanted to have newspapers which can write about all sorts
of things; and, they wished to have some control over political power. But
all these in themselves don't mean an antisocialist turn. The most important
tenets of socialism remained intact. The majority of the public does not like
private property very much and is against unequality. . . .

    People didn't want Czinege [former Communist minister of defense] to have
a villa. And if people didn't want Czinege to have a villa, they don't want
today Palota1s [a current liberal politician and businessman] to have a
villa. The way I expressed this in one of my articles: the political change
of 1990 turned against socialism and the reform of socialism at the same
time. . . ."

The interview is quite long but I found the above the most interesting part
of it. Eva Balogh

It is a good thing that Zoli is a scientist and not a historian or political
scientist because he picks and choses his quotations according to his own
political likes and dislikes. We all get the same news from Hungary via
Internet and the quotation Zoli picked contained the phrase, "he [meaning
Horn] would work toward an affirmative vote on both issues [association with
the European Union and NATO]." I read this passage myself but I didn't take
it terribly seriously in the light of Horn's earlier admission that "he
himself has doubts about Hungarian association with NATO." I wonder how
seriously he is going to work for passage of these referendums if he himself
has doubts about Hungary's joining these two organizations. I interpreted the
report Zoli quoted as a partial backtracking on the issue due to adverse
reaction to his earlier utterances.

Zoli, of course, is quite right that Horn was the first politician in Hungary
who talked about Hungary's joining NATO. Therefore, I am even more surprised
about his present attitude.

And while we are on foreign policy. If I were that poor La1szlo1 Kova1cs, the
new foreign minister, I would be a very unhappy person. The prime minister,
who obviously enjoys foreign policy, does not leave much elbow room for the
poor man. Meanwhile, confusion reigns with all sorts of mixed signals which
will not help Hungary's international standing. Eva Balogh

P.S. Another thing, but also in the foreign policy realm. Do you remember
that Ge1za Jeszenszky traveled to Belgrade and he got an awful lot of flack
for it? The new foreign minister, Kova1cs, met with his Yugoslav counterpart
in Budapest on the second or third day after taking office. Interesting.

Dear Eva,

> It is a good thing that Zoli is a scientist and not a historian or political
> scientist
 Sure it is :-), I'm with you so far...
> because he picks and choses his quotations according to his own
> political likes and dislikes.
 you mean it'd be only OK for the higher cast of H/PS ;-)?!

> We all get the same news from Hungary via
> Internet and the quotation Zoli picked contained the phrase, "he [meaning
> Horn] would work toward an affirmative vote on both issues [association with
> the European Union and NATO]." I read this passage myself but I didn't take
> it terribly seriously in the light of Horn's earlier admission that "he
> himself has doubts about Hungarian association with NATO."
 Oh well, so you histo-scientifically chose the report that omitted the
crucial point of his support over the one that clearly showed his
attitude, but according to you when I picked the fuller picture that
contains what you do not take seriously that's only because of my
liking (a fault excused by my would-be hard-scientist status ;-() -
interesting method of source criticism ;-<... Incidentally, I also get
the news from home, so I do no have to rely on the rather sparsely
worded Internet sources. Note that the RFE is typically second-hand
information carrier, while the VoA is usually even more removed from
direct reporting - quoting news agency transcripts of someone else's
interviews and such. I believe the passage you quoted with "doubts" is
VoA's zanza-ised summary of what they thought of him, and the full text
showed that the concern is what many Hungarians (may) think rather than
Horn's own admission of what he does. When a significant fraction of the
society is not in agreement on a question so fundamental as the country's
joining an alliance then it's best to hold a referendum, wouldn't you think?
If I am not mistaken, all the EU's members did so (or maybe the Germans
decided via parliament only)?!

> I wonder how
> seriously he is going to work for passage of these referendums if he himself
> has doubts about Hungary's joining these two organizations. I interpreted the
> report Zoli quoted as a partial backtracking on the issue due to adverse
> reaction to his earlier utterances.
>
> Zoli, of course, is quite right that Horn was the first politician in Hungary
> who talked about Hungary's joining NATO. Therefore, I am even more surprised
> about his present attitude.
 Since he has been quite consistent in a policy of moving toward European
integration, it is quite a reinterpretation to render his stand as
"earlier utterances", and figure his attitude based on half a sentence in a
flimsy VoA report...

-- Zoli

Marc inquired about the date of the negotiations between the representatives
of the parliamentary parties. As far as I can ascertain from "Hirmondo," the
first meeting took place on Monday, July 11 and by Friday, July 15, it was
all over. On the afternoon of July 15, Horn acted on his own and recommended
the two presidents and four vice-presidents for confirmation by Go2ncz. Upon
hearing that the conference broke up. Eva Balogh

Attila wrote:

.Laszlo Bekes, the Hungarian Finance Minister announced that Hungary will
>NOT reschedule the debt.

>More moves like that and I convert.

Yes, this is what I mean about grand confusion. Members of the cabinet
contradicting each other. It does look bad--I think, it's bad. Eva Balogh
Marc inquired about the date of the negotiations between the representatives
of the parliamentary parties. As far as I can ascertain from "Hirmondo," the
first meeting took place on Monday, July 11 and by Friday, July 15, it was
all over. On the afternoon of July 15, Horn acted on his own and recommended
the two presidents and four vice-presidents for confirmation by Go2ncz. Upon
hearing that the conference broke up. Eva Balogh

I agree with Gabor Fencsik 100% on his analysis of the current situation. He
is quite right that the whole handling of the media affair "showed enormous
arrogance and insensitivity, when moving through a political minefield." I
also agree with him that these guys are not MDF amateurs--these fellows are
savvy politically with a great deal of experience behind them. Therefore,
indeed, they are much more dangerous. I think that the very strong showing of
the MSZP went into Horn's head. Add to this that there is a much less
effective opposition today than two months ago and a great deal more party
discipline in the MSZP at least, inherited (and recently reaffirmed) from
MSZMP days. Therefore, parliament isn't going to be a serious counterweight
to the administration. (That answers Marc's criticism of me that I am too
hasty condemning the new government, simply based on Horn's utterances, and
that I should wait for actions of the parliament.)

Also, I have a "queasy feeling" when I read such things as:

Horn said in Parliament: "The coalition's 72% parliamentary voting majority
will not lead to dictatorship." The very word "dictatorship" ought to be
avoided. The idea of a dictatorship is so unimaginable and so outlandish that
it should not be discussed, in any shape or form! At the same time, emphasis
on the 72% majority should be avoided--one ought not to gloat too much,
especially within the same sentence which talks about "dictatorship."

Eva Balogh

>If
>at least one Hungarian reporter would stop pontificating, and dig up some
>news for a change, then we should have a blow-by-blow description of how
>this decision was made. I'm not sure we will.  If the SZDSZ cannot
>play the checks-and-balances role in government, then the press must
>do it for them.  If the press has the spine to do their job, that is.

This reminds me of a twelve-page-long article which attempts to be
"investigating reporting" (politikai oknyomozo1 riport) in *168 o1ra* (June
28, 1994, pp. 4-15). It is the most peculiar "investigating reporting" I have
ever read!

The author is Tama1s Frei. The title "Investigation of the Secrets of a
Political Compromise--Behind Closed Doors." The preamble explains that Frei
spent twenty-two days preparing this report. He talked to several scores of
the participants, with some, many times. There were no tape recordings of the
conversations but he had hundreds of pages of notes.

The first thing one notices that although the events took place "behind
closed doors," there are quotation marks around an awful lot of statements.
The preamble explains that statements within quotation marks signify that the
participant was able to quote verbatim. If the participant recalled only the
contents of the conversation, they don't use quotation marks.

In addition to these questionable quotation marks there are other features
which are unusual in investigating journalism. Here is a short passage which
may illustrate the whole tone of the piece:

"Szervusz, Gyula"--said Pe1ter Boross, while he leaned back in his chair and
extinguished his cigarette." . . . "O.K. Gyula, I will phone you back--said
Boross reassuringly, after which he carefully replaced the receiver, grabbed
the shining side of the light-brown desk, and angrily threw himself back into
the soft back of his chair. "This is really too much" said he in a sharp
voice, emphasizing the word `really.' "I will speak with Nahlik--he added."

And it goes on and on like this, "behind closed doors." Then, there are the
laughable things. Journalists in Hungary seem to be terribly preoccupied with
cars. Horn is driven in a Volvo nowadays. Peto3 drives an Opel. La1szlo1
Kova1cs drives a Ford. Szekeres drives a beige Seat Toledo.

Another interesting bit. The politicians gather in Balatonsza1rszo1 in a
vineyard. The journalist lets us know that "Ba1lint Magyar got up and gave
way toward the bushes for one of the guests who had to do `his little
business' [urinate].

So, I am not sure whether we can expect much investigative journalism from
these characters. Eva Balogh

>I've got a brilliant idea :-)

says Marc Nasdor

>Since we're getting all hot and bothered about the new government in
Hungary,
>could anyone find out how we might send e-mail to Horn, Kuncze, etc.  I
mean,
>if we're going to run Hungary from here (where is here?), we may as well
>open negotiations with our lackeys on the hot seat! :-)

>I'm serious: can we get their e-mail addresses? Do they have any?


Yes, this is an excellent idea! Let's work on it. It is possible that we are
not going to get anywhere with it, though. The last government spokeswoman
(korma1nyzati szo1vi1vo3) Judit Juha1sz had an e-mail address. I wrote to her
twice. The first time I got an answer from Jo1zsi Hollo1si, owner of HIX; the
second time, no answer at all. A couple of days ago I asked Jo1zsi Hollo1si
whether there will be again an e-mail address available for the new
government spokesman/woman. He doesn't know but as he put it, as far as he
could figure it out Judit Juha1sz never looked at any of her messages. So it
doesn't really matter.

However, I think we should explain to these guys that if the president and
the vice-president of the United States have e-mail addresses, they ought to,
too. Moreover, unlike Judit Juha1sz, they ought to read the stuff. I am sure
that some people on the list are familiar with some of the politicians in
question. Eva Balogh

Before you make deep conclusions from the existence of email aliases to
Clinton & Gore, it should be noted that as far as anyone knows they don't
read it either; and whomever do they do not answer electronically, only
send snail-mail - a form letter perhaps...

-- Zoli

In article > ,  writes:

>Although I am sure that Horn is correct when he says that "many
Hungarians
>were happy when Hungary left the now dissolved Warsaw Pact, and do not
want
>to join another military bloc," a foreign policy promoting neutrality is
not
>a viable one for Hungary, IMHO.

why not? it would be quite a natural extension of the neutral band formed
by switzerland and austria. hungary could do worse than join switzerland,
austria and sweden as neutral countries.

d.a.

Joe:

Thanks for the timely analysis. It shows that Hungary would be better off
either without any government-run media or, say, at most something like the
BBC (gov't-supported), or PBS (a non-profit), in addition to more private
stations. The more media sources, the better, IMHO.
send
BTW, I wouldn't compare Hungarian TV & radio to the USIA. apples & Oranges.

Marc