Aloha from your neighborhood (Hawaii)    :-)

Kopeczky  Gyvrgy

> Felado: 
> From: 
> Karen Hobbs > forwards from
> Major T. Sean Schultz >

| Here in Hungary there is an informal greeting `szervusz' (..) very similar
| to the Southern German and Austrian greeting of "Servus".  [Latin for
| servant--Ed.] I am curious as to the origin of the word, and whether or not
| it is a recent lingual acquisition here in Hungary or if it goes back to the
| Empire days.

Since none of our resident linguists took this up I volunteer though I don't
momentarily have access to an etymological dictionary. The word "szervusz" is
definitely not a recent borrowing, it already appears in 19th century books.
Possibly it predates "Empire days" as it is obviously from Latin, which used
to be the main language of Hungarian nobility. No doubt it is an abbreviated
form of a fuller phrase like "your humble servant" or "at your service" (both
of which could still be used as parting greetings in formal letters, though by
present-day standards they are rather stilted). There are some clear signs
pointing to a relatively long history of the word in Hungarian: there is a
spelling/pronunciation variant "szerbusz", and there is a considerably more
modern variant "szevasz" which I think dates from the thirties (?) or perhaps
the forties (definitely in widespread use by the fifties). This in turn is
probably the etymological base for the form "szia" as still shown by the
plural "sziasztok" (which is only more recently being replaced by "sziatok").

Americans are often surprised to find that a standard parting greeting
"see'ya", appears as an initial greeting in Hungarian, and that a standard
initial greeting, "hello", is a fine way to end a conversation. The mystery
is somewhat lessened if we note that both "szia" and "hello1" are autonomous
developments in Hungarian, etymologically unrelated to their English
counterparts. (Though legend has it that the telephone greeting "hello" was
introduced by Thomas Edison's native Hungarian assistant, Tivadar Puska1s,
who is sometimes credited with inventing the phone switchboard. The word
definitely appears in Hungarian before the introduction of the telephone --
but of course it appears in English as well.)

Andra1s Kornai

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker, using her expertise as an anthropologist, says the
following about the Hungarin greeting, "szervusz."

>It
>is of "Latin derivation", but may come in even earlier than 1526.

        Yes? In that case the word was hiding from the world for almost 300
years because the first time we have written proof of it is 1815!

>The House
>of Anjou ruled Hungary before the Habsburgs and spoke French.  "A votre
>servis"  (at your service) is a common, ancient French expression used in
>similar manner to the Hungarian "szervusz."  "Servicio" is an Italian
>expression. While Austria-Hungary did rule parts of Italy from time to time,
>I think it more likely it is from the French influence, since they had
>higher status in the royal courts than Italians and thus would have been
>better able to set standards for manners and their corresponding
>expressions.

        Very much doubt it since Hungarian linguists are almost certain that
although "szervusz" is of Latin origin, it came to Hungary via German.
According to my Wahrig German-German dictionary, the word "servus" in the
sense of "Guten Tag!" "Auf wiedersehen!" is used in Bavaria and Austria.

>It's highly improbable that the expression would have survived
>from the Roman occupation of Hungary 2,000 years ago.

        Indeed, highly!

        Eva Balogh

Dear fellow-listmembers,

This seemed like an appropriate forward for our list, if anyone is
interested please follow the instructions given in the e-mail below.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Dear Reader,

Donate your voice to science and get a free lunch

If you are reading this message you must be someone that can really help us
finishing up our research project.

If you are a native speaker of one of the following languages, call the toll
free number listed below and talk to our computer. It will only work within
the USA, we ask you to send this message to a friend in the USA that speaks
one of the languages below.

We will record your voice and use the data to train computers to understand
spoken language.  We need quite a few callers so please spread the word to
your friends.  In
appreciation of your call we will send each caller a $3 gift certificate for
McDonalds or TCBY frozen yogurt.

  This research is sponsored by the Oregon Graduate Institute.

--When you call you will be asked where you heard about this project.  Please
note where you read this posting.

--check out our web page for more information
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/CSLU/research/research.html
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/CSLU/21lang.html
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/CSLU/contest.html
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/CSLU/

Arabic          1-800-298-2311
Cantonese       1-800-298-2346
Czech           1-800-323-5767
Farsi           1-800-276-8386
French          1-800-738-3815
German          1-800-439-1531
Hindi           1-800-276-8379
Hungarian       1-800-738-3819
Italian         1-800-298-2308
Japanese        1-800-819-2903
Korean          1-800-738-3834
Malay           1-800-276-8374
Mandarin        1-800-738-3816
Polish          1-800-738-3820
Russian         1-800-298-2344
Spanish         1-800-291-7644
Swahili         1-800-738-3837
Swedish         1-800-276-8375
Tamil           1-800-323-5762
Vietnamese      1-800-589-7656


--If you have further questions call Terri Lander (503) 690-1381

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Is the folksong Bela Batkay mentions in his post the tune that figures
largely in the soundtrack for the film by Gyongyossy and Kabay called in
international release "Job's Revolt"?  I remember seeing that once in the
Singapore International Film Festival in 1985, and I've shown it in a few
history classes since then.  The action centers around that Hungarian
Jewish community of peasant farmers, and as I recall in one scene they
go to place their "qvittungn" on the tomb of the great rabbi.

I think Charles Fenyvesi writes (movingly) about that tune also in his
memoir of his family's life in Hungary.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

At 08:40 PM 3/27/96 -0500, Sam Stowe, while wistfully waiting for the phlegm
from his nose to reach the extended tip of his tongue, wrote:

>George: (referring to George Szaszvari)
>Thank you very much for taking time from your public courtship of Joe
>Szalai to respond to my post. Interesting, isn't it, that she waited a
>couple of weeks after I posted that remark to respond to it, even though
>she posted plenty of responses on other topics in the interim. She wants
>to bring it back up again, I'm more than happy to milk it. Oops, getting
>Freudian again, aren't we? Good luck with Joe. He's a nice guy.
>Sam Stowe
>
>P.S. -- Glad to see you idealists sticking together. You have yet to prove
>that Marxism-Leninism hasn't been tried -- and you won't be able to.

OK, Bat Boy, tell us.  Where has Marxism-Leninism been tried?  And what,
specifically, did the Marxist-Leninists do that others, i.e., non
Marxist-Leninists, did not do?

Please be as specific as possible with your answer and make sure that there
are NO examples of non M-L'ists doing the same things.  You won't be able to
do it.  Are you up to the challenge anyway?

P.S.  You didn't pay attention during sex education classes, did you?  Why
would you think that George is courting me?  He and I merely exchanged a
couple of non-threatening, non-eye-gouging posts, and you think that he and
I will soon be fornicating.  Gad!  You sound like someone going through a
fit of jealousy.  What'll you want next?  Will you want to read our private
e-mail?

Joe Szalai

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 08:40 PM 3/27/96 -0500, Sam Stowe, while wistfully waiting for the phlegm
> from his nose to reach the extended tip of his tongue, wrote:
>
> >George: (referring to George Szaszvari)
> >Thank you very much for taking time from your public courtship of Joe
> >Szalai to respond to my post. Interesting, isn't it, that she waited a
> >couple of weeks after I posted that remark to respond to it, even though
> >she posted plenty of responses on other topics in the interim. She wants
> >to bring it back up again, I'm more than happy to milk it. Oops, getting
> >Freudian again, aren't we? Good luck with Joe. He's a nice guy.
> >Sam Stowe
> >
> >P.S. -- Glad to see you idealists sticking together. You have yet to prove
> >that Marxism-Leninism hasn't been tried -- and you won't be able to.
>
> OK, Bat Boy, tell us.  Where has Marxism-Leninism been tried?  And what,
> specifically, did the Marxist-Leninists do that others, i.e., non
> Marxist-Leninists, did not do?
>
> Please be as specific as possible with your answer and make sure that there
> are NO examples of non M-L'ists doing the same things.  You won't be able to
> do it.  Are you up to the challenge anyway?
>
> P.S.  You didn't pay attention during sex education classes, did you?  Why
> would you think that George is courting me?  He and I merely exchanged a
> couple of non-threatening, non-eye-gouging posts, and you think that he and
> I will soon be fornicating.  Gad!  You sound like someone going through a
> fit of jealousy.  What'll you want next?  Will you want to read our private
> e-mail?
>
> Joe Szalai


Tovarisch Joe,

        You'll have to forgive Sam.  Nobody's been by to clean his cage in
awhile and it's making him kinda cranky:-)

Doug

At 1:48 PM 3/28/96, Dancs Szabolcs wrote:

>    Anything else: do you know what it means: magyar? It means:
>speaking man. Mogy-eri. Mogy~mond-, eri~ferfi. Do you find it
>interesting? I guess you do.
>
>Thanks And Udv: Szabolcs

Dear Szabolcs!

 Magyar=mogi plus eri; the first part is understood to be proto-Ugrian word
denoting a male, man, or people, while the second part is a later formation
used with the same semantic content, except that it is a Turkic word
according to some authorities. At first foreigners called the Hungarians
mogi-eri; eventually they themselves adopted the term.



Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

>At 08:40 PM 3/27/96 -0500, Sam Stowe, while wistfully waiting for the phlegm
>from his nose to reach the extended tip of his tongue, wrote:
>
>>George: (referring to George Szaszvari)
>>Thank you very much for taking time from your public courtship of Joe
>>Szalai to respond to my post. Interesting, isn't it, that she waited a
>>couple of weeks after I posted that remark to respond to it, even though
>>she posted plenty of responses on other topics in the interim. She wants
>>to bring it back up again, I'm more than happy to milk it. Oops, getting
>>Freudian again, aren't we? Good luck with Joe. He's a nice guy.
>>Sam Stowe
>>
>>P.S. -- Glad to see you idealists sticking together. You have yet to prove
>>that Marxism-Leninism hasn't been tried -- and you won't be able to.
>
>OK, Bat Boy, tell us.  Where has Marxism-Leninism been tried?  And what,
>specifically, did the Marxist-Leninists do that others, i.e., non
>Marxist-Leninists, did not do?
>
>Please be as specific as possible with your answer and make sure that there
>are NO examples of non M-L'ists doing the same things.  You won't be able to
>do it.  Are you up to the challenge anyway?
>
>P.S.  You didn't pay attention during sex education classes, did you?  Why
>would you think that George is courting me?  He and I merely exchanged a
>couple of non-threatening, non-eye-gouging posts, and you think that he and
>I will soon be fornicating.  Gad!  You sound like someone going through a
>fit of jealousy.  What'll you want next?  Will you want to read our private
>e-mail?
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>Joe:it seems to me you are taking this courtship too seriously.I appreciate
your selective language anyway.
Congratulation:Andy K.

Lectoris Salutem!
        The origin of the greeting mentioned in the subject is simpler
than anybody may think.
        We should not forget, that in Hungary uptil the middle of the
XIX. century the language of higher education, of courts and legal
affairs, of county-level administration, of science, of the majority
Roman Catholic Church (including every-day lithurgy in even the smallest
village), of medicine, etc., that is the language of the civil servant
intellectual class was LATIN. The excellent romantic stories of Jokai Mor
(last century Hungarian writer comparable in stile to Victor Hugo or
Jules Verne) are very difficult to read (much more enjoyable in filmed
version) for the young people today, because Jokai often uses Latin
expressions without inhibitedness in such a portion of his text, that
one is unable to persuade his children to read those difficult texts and
so convince them about the patriotic and romantic beauties of his
stories.
        In my opinion until the middle of the last century the
expression: "servus humillimus" (="your humblest servant", similar to
"a votre servis") was a phrase connected to the signature of official
documents released by and official or private letters written by learned
(usually not too high ranking) intellectuals. Similarly as in the
introduction or ending of a letter, sometimes and from the second half
of the last century more and more often, it was also used in personal
contacts as a polite expression of good intention in managing common
affairs both at meeting and at ending a conversation. I am not sure with
the timing, but I am sure of two points:
1) Jokai used this form of greeting in his books very seldom, and always
in the form "servus humillimus"
2) Just after WWII in the forties, fifties of this century the greeting
"szervusz" was used mainly in towns, mainly by intellectuals.
It was a privilege, an expression of offering and accepting the sense of
intellectual similarity, of intellectual equality, if two persons agreed
on addressing each other informally "per Tu" (non-existent relation in
English, it was "thou" long time ago, today perhaps addressing each
other by first names), and this meant the reciprocal agreement of
greeting each other with "szervusz".
        Nowadays the traditional forms of communication among people are
eroding, disappearing. The forms emerging instead are sometimes suprising
and perplexing. I know young persons, who simply were never asked by
their parents to use the forms of formal addressing and greeting, and for
the time being at least it sounds unusual, when a never seen, newly
acquainted tweenager greets me with "Szia!" (even more informal,
abbreviated version of "szervusz") and speaks to me with the "per tu"
form of "conjugation" of Hungarian verbs.
        All in all, "szervusz" originates from the Latin "servus
humillimus". Latin was an integral part of Hungarian culture for
centuries, unlike French or Italian.
        Just a sarcastic, satiric, joking note to finish with:
If 150-200 years ago our ancestors, like Ferenc Kazinczy, Pal Bugat and
others, had not been too eager to purify our Hungarian language from the
then very strong Latin contaminations,
then today we could even advertize a theory of Panno-Roman Continuity...
        God bless us all...                     kadargyorgy

Hello Everyone!

    I've just subscribed to this list. Please let me know: have you
ever discussed, what Hungarians gave the world?
    For instance, I do not know, whether you know, that underpants
were brought to Europe by us and afterwards they were distributed
throughout the world. Our fathers used to need this kind of clothes
in the North because of the cold.
    Dear friends in foreign countries!
    Please summerize, what statements are made about us in your
papers! I'm afraid of our being missunderstood everywhere. We are
thought to be radically nationalists. It is said, thet there is a
danger here: a danger of facism. Hungarians are not nationalists!
What's more, they seem to be ashamed of their talking about the
country, their love of country...
    Anything else: do you know what it means: magyar? It means:
speaking man. Mogy-eri. Mogy~mond-, eri~ferfi. Do you find it
interesting? I guess you do.

Thanks And Udv: Szabolcs