Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 844
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-12
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  111 sor     (cikkei)
4 Whose History Should We Believe? (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Poverty in Hungary (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: poverty (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Misc. (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
11 Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak + OR + The Inte (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  145 sor     (cikkei)
13 Hungarian genealogy (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
14 t the radical version (mind)  999 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: poverty (mind)  1096 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: The Value of the Internet Discussion (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: War Criminals (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: The nasty Orban Re: HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  159 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  103 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: The Ottoman Empire (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Klara Feher (1923 - 1996) (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Klara Feher (1923 -1996) (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Misc. (mind)  142 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: (no subject given) (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: War Criminals (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: War Criminals (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
29 Communist Reparations (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
30 Test (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  106 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
35 The nasty Orban Re: HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  186 sor     (cikkei)
37 What is sickening? (Re: What is demagoguery?) (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 7:49 PM 11/7/96, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>        First, let me thank Aniko for that wonderful, up-to-date piece on
>her experiences in Hungary only a few days ago. Budapest is thriving, no
>question about it. Unemployment is practically nonexistent and as several
>people on Internet lists said on the spot: anyone can get a job who wants to
>get it. In some other parts of the Hungary the situation is not that rosy,
>especially in the northeast.

According to Hungary Report unemployment in Hungary is about 12%. As you
correctly point out in the Miskolc area unemployment is much higher. There
are about half a million Romas who are mostly unskilled; unemployment in
some oftheir villages is hitting 80%. Inflation is about 22%. Let us not be
over-optimistic. (Vannak meg hibak!)

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Farkas wrote in Hungary #842

"Being an engineer, I hope that computers will eventually solve it, at the
point when all manufacturing will be done by machines (on their own) and the
humans will spend all their time with arts, literature, poetry, sex,
Internet newsgroups and other pleasant things."

Gabor D. Farkas
...............................................................................
..........
Gabor , I too share your hope that the utopia you have outlined one will
become a reality.
But I am not optimistic based on what I see.
I believe there was a 1938 movie which described a future world similar
we are hoping for. The thought was there at least  half a century ago.
Immense technological and societal changes have occurred since.
Are we closer to this  envisioned  "world of the future" today?

Logic dictates that we could achieve this kind of world.
Unfortunately, the greed factor of the human psychological make up
does not allow us to create this type of society. Technological advances
put millions out of work, therefore multitude of people have time on
their hands. Instead of using the available time for pleasant
things, they have to struggle to survive by hassling for the bare necessities.

However, our human makeup includes the capacity for hope
and the ability to create our own reality. Lets hope we use these assets
for our advantage.

                                 Mark O. Fiorini
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (George Szaszvari) wasted plenty of bandwidth with
stuff about himself, which I for one have expressed no interest in,
and then wrote:

>But no Romanian dialects at all?? I find it difficult to believe this.

Fortunately, one's beliefs do not count as linguistic evidence.

>Surely there must be some variation from one part of the country to the other?

Yes, but variations are mainly in vocabulary and in a much lesser
degree in phonetics; there is no question of dialects.

>My experiences of other country I've lived in all have very rich examples of
>linguistic variation and dialects. Why should Romania be uniquely
>different in this respect?

The main control on the dialectal differentiation is the degree of
isolation (e.g., geographical, social) between different groups of a
parent population. Intensity of differentiation is, obviously, a
function of time. Despite your beliefs and past experiences, Romanian
is and has been a very uniform language, characterized by a remarkably
weak dialectal differentiation. It follows that the impermeability (if
any) of  geographical and/or social boundaries between different
segments of the population never lasted long enough for allowing  the
formation of dialects.

>>Starting with the 6th century, Greek was the predominant language of
>>the Byzantine Empire.
>
>I know that Greek was the predominant language of adminstrators in
>the Roman Empires and that Greek was an important part of Roman education,

Actually, speaking of Byzantium, from the 6th century onwards it was
the other way around.

>>Actually, Moldavia and Wallachia united as "United Principalities,"
>>not Romania.
>
>So it was internationally recognised as Romania in 1878?

In country's official acts it was used starting with 21 February,
1862.

>Well, it was an answer to your question: *What does Romanian mean in
>English?*, taking Romanian to mean the language in an internationally
>recognised country called Romania.

Your definition is too restrictive. Romanian designates first and
foremost an ethnic group. The oldest recorded spelling-variant of this
ethnicon is "ruma~n." It is interesting to note "Romanian" is a
relatively recent English spelling, the initial one being "Rumanian,"
still in use today. Since the country's name was never spelled (in
Romanian) "Rumania" it follows that the English-speakers must have
been aware of the ethnicon "rum^n" before the name "Rom^nia" became
officially used starting with 1862.

I mentioned that the same ethnicon is/was used by Macedonian Vlachs
(Aromanians). Scholars agree that the initial Romance population of
the northern Balkan area splited sometimes between the 7th and 12th
centuries. Romanian and Istrian Vlachs are the northern branch,
Aromanians and Meglenites represent the southern one. It follows that
the ethnicon "ruma~n" was used *at least* prior to the 12th century.

>>Wasn't this about how Romanians always called themselves?
>
>No, it was about your question: *What does Romanian mean in English?*,
>not about what Romanian meant in Romanian.

As I recall it, this issue was triggered by your "Ahem, if Romanians
*always* called themselves *rumini*, then did *rumini* always call
themselves *Romanian*? ;-)"

>You have already stated in an earlier
>posting that the peoples of Wallachia and Moldavia considered
>themselves of the one country *Tara Ruma~neasca* and that they have
>always considered themselves Romanian. That is interesting, thank
>you.

You're welcome, but apparently you got the wrong idea. You asked:

"Did Wlachs, Moldavians, Szeklers, Magyars, Saxons, etc, identify
themselves as Romanians before the birth of the political entity
called Romania last century?" And I answered:

 "As far as Wallachians and Moldavians are concerned, yes. Wallachia
was the name used by Western Europeans, but the Romanians always
called their country "Tara Ruma~neasca."

Therefore, "Tara Ruma~neasca" was the name used by Romanians
(Wallachians and Moldavians) for Wallachia, but this doesn't imply
that " the peoples of Wallachia and Moldavia considered themselves of
the one country *Tara Ruma~neasca*"

>However, I can understand the chagrin of Romanians who
>claim that Romania, the Romanian people and the Romanian language
>has existed for for a millenium, or more, without being recognised
>or appreciated, as simply international ignorance, and thus irrelevant
>(or is this too harsh?)

Darn, your knowledge of Romanian historical, political, and cultural
issues is thin, to say the least, and based, as you mentioned and
proved, on forbearers' biased tales, some official propaganda of the
Ceausescu's regime, and plenty of internet posts (definitely not
mine). Pretending "to understand," patronizing, and  making
generalizations supported on nothing but plain ignorance is rather
ridiculous, don't you think?

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Whose History Should We Believe? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>      Again, you are using literary figures in support of your analysis of
> history. But these writers had a certain political outlook and they saw the
> world through certain ideological glasses. One cannot rely on them to
> explain to us the past in an objective manner.

The works of Illyes, Kassak, Albert Wass is read by millions and will be
read for generations to come. They described life in their time honestly
and eloquently, unlike many studies by historians written for a PhD or to
ensure a caveated tenured position at a University.

Here is a sample from Wass's description of a scene when after Trianon the
Romanians are taking over the administration of a Transylvanian village and
the Hungarian flags are confiscated. The narrator is a member of the ruling
class, his wife is from the lower classes. The wife (Ann) showes no emotion
for the loss of the flag which shocks the narrator and rationalizes it
thus:

"Azt hiszem, nem Annaek voltak az okai, hogy ez igy volt. Ok csak
egyszeruen nem ereztek semmi szorossabb kapcsolatot azzal a haromszinu
zaszloval, mintha nem is az ovek lett volna, hanem az urake, akik
elrendeltek, hogy mely napokon kell kiaggatni a templomtoronyra sa
kozseghazara. Az o szemukben valahogy a kozseghazahoz tartozott a zaszlo,
ahonnan a rendeletek, a buntetesek es adok jottek. A foszolgabiro fogata, a
varmegyei hajdu es a zaszlo: ezek valamikeppen osszetartoztak abban a
vilagban, amelyikben Annaek eltek."
[Wass Albert: Ember az orszagut szelen, Toronto, 1977. p. 35]

With apologies to Albert Wass for the inadequate translation, this is
approximately what he wrote: I believe it is not the Anns' fault
that they acted like that. They just simply didn't feel a strong attachment to
the tricolour flag, as if it was not theirs but their masters', who told
them when to put it out on the church tower and the town hall. In their
eyes somehow the flag belonged to the town hall, from where the orders, the
penalties and the taxes come from. The chief magistrate's carriage, the county
sheriff and the flag all somehow belonged together in that world where
the Anns lived."

This may be extremist drivel and demagoguery to a historian. To me it is
the sad truth and no historian can convince me otherwise. They can point
out that Albert Wass is a nationalist, a right wing politician, or any
other gratiutous label one wants to attach to him, in my opinion he is an
eye-witness and he knows what he is talking about.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:04:05 -0500, "Eva S. Balogh"
> wrote:

>
>        As for "Krasznokvajda" (is this the right spelling?) I assume that
>the first part of this place name is also Slavic. "Krasnyi" in Russian means
>"beautiful" or "red." Maybe someone can be of more help.
>
>        Eva Balogh

All those Russian language classes that the commies of the 50s Romania
forced on us (Russian was compulsory from grade 4 on) were completely
wasted on me.

However..... :-[

krasivoi/vaia - beautiful
krasnoi/naia - red

Oh, damn..... they got to me... it must have been subliminal...

:-) Bandi
.
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Poverty in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

No, sorry, the "eternal human nature" is not a valid
argument. Progress is the story of more and more
and better and better quality cooperation, and more and more
humanity, the examples to the contrary just demonstrate
the bankrupcy of the given social structures.
It is the selfish interest of people to work together.



>    Capitalism versus socialism?  The problem is the people: humanity.
> Greed will be victorious whatever the system.  Educating people to be
> ethical, not to take advantage of the position if which they are, could
> help.  But education is only getting worse, not better.  People in the
> ivory towers are full of good will, but their efforts always fail.  Because
> they don't take into consideration that execution of tasks is in the hands
> of greedy, often careless people, who will do just as little as possible,
> to get a paycheck.  And my respect to the exceptions, and there are plenty
> of those.  But they trash in rapid waters, trying to save the drowning,
> then drown themselves
> Glory be!
>
> Karoly
>

+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I did not express my opinion recently, so I don't know what
you presume for me.  The truth is, that I agree with you,
democratic reorganisation should (re)start locally, at the
"grass roots". I do not trust any more  existing structure,
such as political parties or trade unions achieveing any
change, even if elected on such policies.

The only way an organization will be fully democratic, if
everyone took part in founding and running it. With the IT
we have, coordination and planning would be possible
without a strong administrative centre evolving.
I don't want the "small is beautiful" and other new age
mystique, but a society, that is able to use all the newest
science and technology - not just for a thin layer
of a few countries.

We could have 5 hours or less working days, good education, sport
and high standard of  living worldwide, the material basis  exists.
Just check out the figures of world-wide production - and
this figure now includes incredible amount of waste such as
the arm and the advertising industry.  However, the capitalist
ways of doing things cannot "evolve" into anything like this,
the tendency is to have a large more and more isolated underclass.

E.g. (today's news) a supermarket chain (Kwiksave) is closing 107
shops nationally, because this year there profits went down from
=A3120m to =A390m.  They function well - their workers make a living,
the customers get their food - but that is not good enough.


> If everybody is trying to solve the problems on his or her own way no
> significant major change will occur. This suits the ruling class just
> fine. They can deal with small groups of rebels, making them look
> ridiculous, isolate them and turn them against each other.
>
> This is why only in a local level I can see some possibilities for
> individual initiatives. As I wrote it before, there are documented
> examples, where local politicians achieved some social improvements in t=
he
> "Nyirseg" during the Kadar regime. Apparently neither Sam Stowe or Eva
> Durant believe in this approach (for different reasons) so let me try ag=
ain
> with an other Hungarian example from the pre World War period .
>
> Rakospalota and Ujpest are both working class suburbs of Budapest. The
> majority of people in Rakospalota worked for the state owned railway com=
pany
> MAV. MAV provided job security and decent wages and built decent afforda=
ble
> homes for the workers.  Consequently the life of a working poor was
> significantly better in Rakospalota than in Ujpest. The communists calle=
d
> these workers "worker aristocrats".
>
> It was no accident that MAV moved its factory to Rakospalota. It was goo=
d
> political lobbying by a smart major and a sympathetic politician, landow=
ner
> Count Istvan Karolyi, who paved the way of moving the MAV factory there =
in
> 1901. [see Buza Peter: Palotai tegnapok, Rakospalota, 1995]
>
> I see a big differences between the attitude toward social issues among =
the
> present day local Canadian politicians also. Sometimes they can make a s=
mall
> difference in the life of the poor. We should push them to do so. I agre=
e
> that the public have no or very small influence on the way the national
> government is run.
>
> Barna Bozoki
>

+ - Re: poverty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I thought that ever since the first division of labour  surplus was
produced, there was no necessity for poverty. If egyptians
were capable producing the pyramids from their surplu, they could
have lived without poverty.  However - they were not aware, that
their social system  was - oops, a class society.  The progress of
human history is a more and more conscious effort to control
social structures, so hopefully classless and stateless society
can be achieved.  Much preferable to uncontrollably chaotic markets and
the inhumanity of markets and profits.
Poverty has no reason to be with us anymore, if we use fully our
human potentials.

> I find the view that E1va, Barna, and Joe are agreeing on rather naive.
> Surely, being poor is the "dog bites man" case that requires no special
> explanation, and being rich is the "man bites dog" case that causes a
> sensation. Animals are poor. They live lives that are short and brutish.
> So did the vast majority of humankind until the 20th century.
>
> Pockets of lessened poverty, even to the minimal extent of having one's basic
> needs (food, clothing, shelter) taken care of, have started to emerge on a
> societal scale only after the industrial revolution, and the phenomenon of
> having a large segment of the population that could be called well to do is
> quite new, and still restricted to the major industrial nations. Meanwhile,
> billions of people still live in dire poverty.
>
> At one point Henry Ford started to pay his workers above the going rate, an
> idea that seemed extremely strange at the time, but one that caught on
> eventually. From that point onwards it became possible to get rich without
> exploiting your fellow man, and Balzac's aphorism that at the foundation of
> every large fortune there is a major crime ceased to be true. Bill Gates
> didn't get to be the richest man in America by exploiting his workers, in
> fact there are thousands of employees who became millionaires at Microsoft.
> One might of course argue that DOS was a major crime...
>
> Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
> blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
> if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but perhaps
> switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the weather.
> Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its problems
> are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are caused
> by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.
>
> Andra1s Kornai
>

+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:49 PM 11/9/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>There are as many versions of "socialism" as there are versions of any
>"-ism".  To dismiss them all is to show prejudice.

Please enlighten me about the basic differences between some of these versions.

>>Being an engineer,
>
>An engineer!  Well, I always figured you had a problem but I never knew what
>it was.  Now I know.  Thanks for sharing. ;-)

Are you prejudiced against engineers? Beware, without us there would be no
factories with workers to strike, etc. Also, in 1956 the Revolution was
started with the 16 demands of the engineering students.

>>I hope that computers will eventually solve it, at the
>>point when all manufacturing will be done by machines (on their own) and the
>>humans will spend all their time with arts, literature, poetry, sex,
>>Internet newsgroups and other pleasant things.
>
>Yeah, I wish!  You know, in the '50s, in school, we were told the same
>thing.  It still hasn't happened.  I'm just curious why you can put your
>"faith" in technology and not into "socialism".  You must be a beneficiary.

I said hope, not faith. After all we, engineers just give you, the rest the
tools. Engineers seldom make decisions about how those tools are used. And
the idea of the atomic bomb was born in the head of physicists, not that of
engineers.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Misc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

So how do you lift yourself if you are a semi-illiterate
teenager, your friends and relations ditto, and you've
been told all through your life, that science/politics etc.
are too difficult for you, also that things are the best as they are,
you shouldn't aspire to social change, because that is most unpatriotic.
It seems to me, that an intelligent person in this situation, if
s/he is ambicious to strive for the culturally/socially stereotyped
& accepted life-style, will have the only option through crime, as
he/she cannot compete for the few available jobs.

In my opinion, your only chance to get motivated/get enough
confidence to change your life is  through luck ( agood teacher or
a good book or the example of somebody who made it in similar
circumstances) or social change: good education and opportunities
provided everywhere.  Not having the first of these is not the
individual's fault, and he has a good reason to blame society,
that claims itself the richest on earth, but not rich enough
to provide equal opportunities.





> One way I can assure my survival is to learn everyday what can be done
> better and faster with less effort. The educational systems, unfortunately,
> are also slow in comprehending the change and in most cases it is up to
> individual effort to assure that he or she maintains individual contributing
> values to whatever endevour he or she is involved in.
> Falling behind and than complaining or solely looking for someone else to
> blame, will not bring solution to the problem.
>
> As Jerry Garcia of The Grateful Dead said: "Somebody has to do something,
> and it's incredibly pathetic that it has to be us."
>
> You have two days for the rocks flying, then I'm gone again.
>
> Regards,Jeliko
>

+ - Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak + OR + The Inte (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I agree with Charles Vamossy's reply to Joe Szalai's comments.
Joe Szalai's of the world (especially Hungarians) still advocate the
communist/socialist perspective of the world that has been repudiated by
events of the past years. Moreover, the issues are that Hungarians
themselves rather keep biting at each other instead of trying to help
each other out.  The Szalai's of the world (that includes many residents
of Hungary) who would rather NOT accept western help (from those
Hungarians who "left" Hungary in 56 (earlier or later) who are normally
looked upon us those who abandonded Hungary rather that those who could
REALLY help them via their wider insight and experience.

One other thing.... It has come to my attention that we as Hungarians
also seem to ignore many external pressures and accept de facto error in
the West.

Let me give a specific example...the library at Princeton (among many others)
have seen fit to categorize the Hungarian Language under SLAVIC/GERMANIC
and Eastern European.

Is it not time for all of us to object to this vehemently?? After all WE
are neither and we are in Central Europe.  One cannot find Hungarian
language in the library easily unless they look under SLAVIC/.GERMANIC
languages. This I feel is a total distortion of the truth and it needs to
be changed.

Regards,
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Liviu Iordache wrote:
 (George Szaszvari) wasted plenty of bandwidth with
>stuff about himself, which I for one have expressed no interest in,
>and then wrote <snip>..

Oh dear, Liviu, this is very disappointing. Why the exaggeration and
gratuitous abuse? The five lines of *plenty of bandwidth* explaining
my position was necessary to stop your anti-Hungarian stuff, but now
you've switched to getting personal, instead.

>>But no Romanian dialects at all?? I find it difficult to believe this.

>Fortunately, one's beliefs do not count as linguistic evidence <snip>..

Can you blame me when all the evidence from my own experience of
extended stays in at least half a dozen other countries makes me raise
an eyebrow at your *no Romanian dialects* claim. I'm afraid the stuff
about vocabulary and phonetics, etc, doesn't convince me, but anyway,
although I remain skeptical (maybe one day I'll revisit the place and
find out for myself), thanks for taking the time to tell me.

>In country's official acts it was used starting with 21 February,
>1862.

Thank you for the clarification.

>>Well, it was an answer to your question: *What does Romanian mean in
>>English?*, taking Romanian to mean the language in an internationally
>>recognised country called Romania.

>Your definition is too restrictive. Romanian designates first and
>foremost an ethnic group. The oldest recorded spelling-variant of this
>ethnicon is "ruma~n." It is interesting to note "Romanian" is a
>relatively recent English spelling, the initial one being "Rumanian,"
>still in use today. Since the country's name was never spelled (in
>Romanian) "Rumania" it follows that the English-speakers must have
>been aware of the ethnicon "rum^n" before the name "Rom^nia" became
>officially used starting with 1862.
>I mentioned that the same ethnicon is/was used by Macedonian Vlachs
>(Aromanians). Scholars agree that the initial Romance population of
>the northern Balkan area splited sometimes between the 7th and 12th
>centuries. Romanian and Istrian Vlachs are the northern branch,
>Aromanians and Meglenites represent the southern one. It follows that
>the ethnicon "ruma~n" was used *at least* prior to the 12th century.

All this is most interesting, thank you.

>>>Wasn't this about how Romanians always called themselves?

>>No, it was about your question: *What does Romanian mean in English?*,
>>not about what Romanian meant in Romanian.

>As I recall it, this issue was triggered by your "Ahem, if Romanians
>*always* called themselves *rumini*, then did *rumini* always call
>themselves *Romanian*? ;-)"

That triggered this off? Didn't the winking smiley, followed by
*But seriously, etc...* give you a clue?

>>You have already stated in an earlier
>>posting that the peoples of Wallachia and Moldavia considered
>>themselves of the one country *Tara Ruma~neasca* and that they have
>>always considered themselves Romanian. That is interesting, thank
>>you.

>You're welcome, but apparently you got the wrong idea. You asked:
>"Did Wlachs, Moldavians, Szeklers, Magyars, Saxons, etc, identify
>themselves as Romanians before the birth of the political entity
>called Romania last century?" And I answered:
> "As far as Wallachians and Moldavians are concerned, yes. Wallachia
>was the name used by Western Europeans, but the Romanians always
>called their country "Tara Ruma~neasca."
>Therefore, "Tara Ruma~neasca" was the name used by Romanians
>(Wallachians and Moldavians) for Wallachia, but this doesn't imply
>that " the peoples of Wallachia and Moldavia considered themselves of
>the one country *Tara Ruma~neasca*"

Aaah...no, I didn't get the wrong idea, but I should have been more
literal/exact: I meant Romanian speaking peoples (and thought the
context made that obvious - apparently not).

>Darn, your knowledge of Romanian historical, political, and cultural
>issues is thin, to say the least,

Gosh, sorry Liviu, It's not really my fault, so please don't blame
me for my ignorance about Romania! I was brought up in Great Britain
and I don't recall Romania ever being even mentioned in any school
lesson (my loss, I know). I'm afraid that the serious media here
do not give Romania a good press. As far as most Britons today are
concerned, Romania is just some kind of backward country to be pitied
by sending convoys of food parcels, etc, to orphanages (ironic when a
lot of people in Britain could use that charity), for childless couples
to adopt unwanted babies and, to cap it all, Joe Average associates
historical Romania with not much more than Dracula legends. Oh, yes,
there is the Romanian football team with Hagi & Co (they're pretty
good and I watch them on TV whenever I can). I had a short stay with
relatives in Romania in 1982 (on a round trip of SE Europe) and although
I loved the countryside and made some good Romanian friends, I found
their paranoia about party members and bureaucrats rather spooky (they
freaked me out, too!). You probably won't be surprised to hear that most
Hungarians I know or met hardly have a good word to say about Romanians
generally. I guess that such sentiments are mutual. This is not meant to
be provocative or rude, it's just the way things have been presented to
me, like it or not. I was hoping that our little exchange might have
broken a little ice on that score, but, unfortunately, you don't seem
interested (do you always spit on an extended hand?).

>and based, as you mentioned and
>proved, on forbearers' biased tales, some official propaganda of the
>Ceausescu's regime, and plenty of internet posts (definitely not
>mine). Pretending "to understand,"

Pretending to understand? Don't be silly, Liviu. I'm been up front
about *not knowing* and haven't claimed any understanding, only
to offer something (even if it does seem ignorant to you) for you
to deliberately comment on so that I could learn from you.

>patronizing,

This is absurd. I'm sure you must be better than this.

>and  making generalizations supported on nothing but plain ignorance

Look chum, I don't know what's eating you, but I've only offered
anything openly for you to correct with your superior knowledge
of Romanian matters (which, sans the smartass personal abuse, I'm
grateful for, thanks) but this nonsense is totally unnecessary.

>is rather ridiculous, don't you think?

Ridiculous? The only ridiculous thing about any of this is your
attitude. You seem determined to live up to the typically derogatory
comments I've heard about Romanians. What a shame! I'll sign off with
this one since you only seem to see me as an adversary to vent your
abuse on (and probably you'd like to terminate the exchange, I suspect).
I don't know why you feel so uncomfortably defensive (perhaps I'm too
forthright for you?) but we can both save the *plenty of bandwidth* you
seem so concerned about. Sorry it didn't work out between us :-(
Good luck and...

Over and out.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC
+ - Hungarian genealogy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I found this discussion list in a genealogical reference area on the
internet.  Is there a special genealogy discussion or research area on
this list?
  Thank you to anyone who can help me.
D. Vince Fletcher
+ - t the radical version (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> of it unrestrained by government regulation and occasional, judicious
> intervention by government can do so in a socially rational and morally
> just manner is the real question. Marxism-Leninism is not the answer.
>
> >
> >
> >> May be with persistent lobbying it is possible to achieve, that poverty
> >would
> >> not be tolerated in a civilized society, regardless of the economic
> system.
>
> Poverty in any truly democratic system will be unhappily and reluctantly
> accepted because experience has demonstrated that eradicating it
> completely invariably leads to unacceptable levels of totalitarian
> government control which extend far beyond the narrow economic goal of
> putting poor folks to work. The trick is to minimize poverty as much as
> possible without infringing on the rights of others to an unacceptable
> degree. The incremental and difficult nature of effecting such a delicate
> balance and maintaining it is not for the faint of heart or those whose
> political philosophy is rooted in a sense of grievance and vengeance.
> >>
> >
> >Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
> >It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
> >good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
> >What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
> >all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
> >than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
> >goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
> >sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
> >but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
> >the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.
>
> Only someone doggedly determined not to learn the lessons of the 20th
> Century would argue that capitalism has not markedly improved the lives of
> the poor in those countries which have checked its most rapacious and
> socially unjust excesses through careful governmental intervention and
> regulation. Being poor in London's East End in 1996 may not be easy or
> enjoyable. It does not, however, inflict the kind of frightening physical
> misery which Dickens, Mayhew and others found in their investigations in
> the last century. It doesn't inflict the kind of physical misery and
> oppression which unrestrained capitalism inflicts on many Third World
> countries. It doesn't inflict the kind of moral hypocrisy, intellectual
> dishonesty, political oppression and shabby living conditions which
> Communism inflicted on millions of Europeans.
> Sam Stowe
> >
> >
> 
>
>
>
> "Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
> -- Bob Dole's last words
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Hungarian Revolution ( 52 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 16:24:14 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Christus Rex Information Service
>  celebrates the fortieth anniversary of the
>  Hungarian Revolution
>  23 October - 4 November 1956
>
> The epic struggle for freedom of the Hungarian nation,
> inspired by the heroic demonstrations of the Polish students earlier
> that
> year, wasthe turning point in the Eastern European efforts to
> overthrow the Communist governments that had been imposed on them by the
> Soviet
> army.
> I would like to offer two personal testimonies about this momentuous
> event:
>
> - Shortly after being transferred to the infamous political prison
> Jilava,
> near Bucharest, Romania, in December 1959, I met a Romanian
> general who had spent 14 years as a prisoner of war in Russia and was
> then transferred to the Romanian prison. Prior to his transfer in
> 1958, he spent some time at Lubyanka (the KGB headquarters in Moscow),
> sharing a cell with two Hungarian teenagers who had been arrested in
> 1956
> at the age of 16, sentenced to death and then kept in prison until they
> turned 18.
> One morning in July 1958 they were taken out and executed. "I shall
> never forget,
> said the old general (he died in Jilava a few years later), the two
> Hungarian boys who were marching to their death blindfolded. They
> were shouting: "Freedom! Independence! Death to Communism!" Hundreds of
> Hungarian teenagers were executed in 1958-1959.
>
> - Twenty years ago I met a former Soviet officer who had defected,
> together with
> 2000 other Soviet military during the Hungarian Revolution and had
> sought
> asylum in Austria. They were separated from the Hungarian
> refugees in December 1956 and were sent to a special camp run by U.S.
> personnel. On January 13, 1957, they were all forced to
> board a train that was supposed to take them to West Germany. The train
> headed
> towards Bratislava (Slovakia) instead. My friend and a few others
> managed to jump off the train, when it slowed down to cross the bridge
> over the Danube river.
> The KGB troops were waiting on the other side of the bridge. All people
> on that
> train were tortured and executed by the KGB in 1957.
>
> Michael Olteanu
>
>
> <http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/index.html>;
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 105 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 16:48:19 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Eva B - At 01:46 PM 07/11/96 -0500, you wrote in answer to Joe Sz:
>
> Joe...
> >>I may be wrong again but I think that Eva Balogh left something out of her
> >>last sentance.  I think she meant to say, "Foreign companies are doing a lo
t
> >>of good, lining their own pockets, in Hungary."  I mean, if they weren't
> >>lining their own pockets they'd leave, no?  I don't think there's such a
> >>thing as "mercy capitalism".
>  ....Joe
> >
> >        God, you are hopeless. Sure, the multinationals didn't go to Hungary
> >to do charity work or lose money. Sure, they want to make money and
> >eventually they will even make profit. (For a number of years they will not
> >because of the heavy investments needed originally to modernize or establish
> >plants.) But, while they are making profit for themselves they are also
> >paying taxes, they are employing thousands of workers whom they pay quite
> >well, and bring hard currency into the country.
> >>        Eva Balogh
>
> Dear Joe/Eva:
>
> Eva - Perhaps hopeless, might be a tad harsh - lack of first hand knowledge
> might be more accurate?
>
> During my last two trips to Hungary, I had the pleasure of meeting with
> several engineers (Italian and Japaneese)  involved with setting up of joint
> ventures in Hungary.  Two large plants are are now undergoing major
> modernizations as a result of these ventures.  The Hungarian employees are
> already benefitting through the rigorous training programs made available to
> them by the foreign partners, while being paid significantly higher salaries
> than prior, even though the plants are not near ready for production.
>
> It is anticipated that the return of investment will not be foreseen for at
> least five years.  After which, it is hoped, that market penetration of the
> products will have been sufficient for profit.  The way I see it; it's no
> different than any other business venture anywhere else in the world - there
> are huge risks, with no guarantees - immediate benefits to *only* the locals.
>
> As it turns out, both these plants were doomed to shut down.  Reason rather
> simple - products were not meeting western world requirements and the
> eastern world shows no further interest, or funds with which to purchase.
>
> In these two instances at least, I see a real positive aspect in foreign
> investments within Hungary.  Having said that, releasing utilities ie: water
> supply to the French - leaves me equally baffled.  That deal in particular I
> am most upset about.  But in all honesty, I also am not aware of all it's
> ins and outs.  Can anyone out there enlighten me?
>
> In addition; I don't know how often all of you travel to Hungary as of late
> - but the changes during the last five years are near incomprehensible.  The
> infrastructure due solely to foreign investments are mind boggling and ever
> changing.  The scope of supply is astounding!  (stupid minute thing, but I
> would kill to have access to one of their "standard design upright freezers
> for example - for in NA, there is not one, that can come even close).  Seven
> years ago, were anyone to show me a photograph that this is what some cities
> will end up looking like - I would have laughed uncontrollably in disbelief
> (and likely would have dropped a few adjectives too).  But, amazingly
> enough, even with all the complaining and crying, the Hungarians themselves
> seem most elated by the changes; and surely they alone are the beneficiaries
> and ought to be listened to?
>
> Further amazing is, that while these changes are ongoing, preservation of
> basic culture, family values, entertainement and allowing oneself to be be
> spoiled remain quite affordable.  The educational system remains far above
> NA's.  The women look incredibly well kept - the men likewise;-) the operas
> are filled, as are the restaurants, the coffee houses, movie theatres,
> (interesting to add; five days ahead ticket purchase for "Independance Day"
> - or no see)  shops et al, cars are fine, people are vacationing and have
> time to enjoy their lives - each day; small businesses appear to thrive -
> rather than fail.  Pollution is down, and people continue to complain and
> cry - with a smirk ever so hard to see.  Yes, they work really hard too -
> but where do they not?
>
> If I had a complaint about Hungary - it would be to change the mentalities
> at large of all beurocrats(sp)  in positions of dealing with the public -
> that, for one has not changed at all - in fact is stuck in the 50's
> somewhere.  Attitudes of people in older established financial institutions
> for example - are outrageous!  The communist inbread mentality lives long
> and hard - when a simple "cashier" can reduce a substantially well to do
> invidual to tears by "exercising her almighty position" - is alive and well,
> right in Budapest less than two weeks ago.  I met an elderly couple for
> L.A.,  for example who were practically reduced to tears, in attempts at
> switching a simple bank account - which took over 2 months to accomplish.
> In the same institution, a fax, takes five days to travel three doors down
> on the same floor.  And, bankwires, can take up to two weeks to accomplish -
> within two major cities in Hungary ...  And ... oh yes, the "fo-igazgato"
> (president) ... is always out for a coffee break - not to mention, that they
> like to have use of your money interest free in the meantime - but will not
> spend money on a fax - to advise you of any imperative changes to your
> account.
>
> Without foreign influence, I am afraid that this mentality will never
> change.  Even with it thus far,  it's hard to knock these beuros off their
> high horses.  If it never changes, Hungary, in my opinion can kiss all the
> foreign investment good-bye!  For none of us, being spoiled by service
> oriented attitudes will ever be prepared to put up with it for any length of
> time.  Without foreign investment, all those plants previously supported by
> the regime, are doomed to fail.  That, of course does not mean, that the
> governing bodies ought not to be intelligent with controls - but, on the
> other hand  ... show me a country, where they are...
>
> For what it's worth ... my observations.
>
> Best regards,
> Aniko
>
> =======================================================
> Felado : Zsargo Janos
> E-mail :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 20 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 19:12:03 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> S.Stowe wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> >Janos Zsargo > writes:
> >
> >> I think this is right, however I disagree with
> >>G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals
> >>in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is
> >>no difference between them criminals and judges.
> >
> >How about sentencing them to serve in godawful places like Rwanda and
> >Kurdistan with international relief agencies if they're found guilty? It
> >might do much to remind them of the cost of inhumanity and actually induce
> >a sense of guilt and shame in them for what they did as younger men.
> >Sam Stowe
>
> I don't know, maybe my English again. Is this a joke or what? If it is
> (at least I assume) you found a suitable subject to joke with, didn't you?
>
> J.Zs
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Poverty in Hungary ( 57 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 19:28:18 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Hi everybody.  I am not arguing with anybody, just add my opinion to the
> others'.  As an ex-member of what the Marxists called (quite accurately)
> the 'ruling class'  in the Horthy era (and my ancestors before me before WW
> I) I think I have at least some eyewitness perspective on the issue.
> Hungary had been a poor country for centuries.  During the Napoleonic wars
> the fact that Hungary was not directly involved (meaning, that no battles
> were fought on Hungarian territory) Hungary enjoyed the role of supplier of
> agricultural goods.  This benefited the landowners, but for the poor
> people, the really small holders, the serfs, it didn't make one damn bit of
> difference.  They were as poor as ever since the Dozsa revolt.  The
> Werboczy Tripartite condemned them for ever and ever to abject poverty.
> And in this respect the difference between poor Hungarians and poor Slovaks
> or Rumanians was about the same as between the 'white trash' and the
> 'niggers' here a hundred years (or less) ago.  It has to be understood (in
> my humble opinion) that the ruling classes (and here the
> industrial-military classes are just as mush ruling classes as we were in
> Horthy Hungary) owe to themselves, to their Capitalist principles to
> produce the maximum profit potential from whatever they do, and since they
> can't control weather, price of raw materials, transportation, etc. they
> make their money on labor.  Labor will try to better their lot always and
> ever.  The unions did a good job on this for a while, but they became just
> as greedy as the employers.  The typical capitalist has no sympathy for the
> poor, because he owes to his own pride to regard himself way above those,
> who didn't make it.  Like most people who managed to escape from Hungary
> think that God loves them, especially loves them, those who make good think
> the same.  This makes Republicans fundamentalists, and vice versa.
> I said it before and I say it again.  Both after WW I and WW II Hungary was
> bled white.  Neither Horthy nor Rakosi could help that.  Changes in systems
> don't make much difference.  As Eva, I believe,  very correctly put it, no,
> land reforms, in which people who worked the land, get to own the land,
> only change the ownership can help.Where we, landowners could produce
> profitably because of being able to mass produce, individual holders of
> maybe up to 10 acres can hardly support themselves, let alone produce for
> the market, export, and pay taxes.  The commies pretty soon changed to
> co-ops, which was reasonable, but it put the share holders into the same
> position as they were when the land was held by the landowners.  Without
> sizeable investment land can only produce so much, and no more, (especially
> with little irrigation, and it should not be forgotten, that the Danube,
> being international, can not b used) and the question is how that produce
> is distributed.  The more goes to the people, the less goes to export, the
> less GPO for the country.  Taxing the poor people only kills them.  There
> is no question, that the poor, uneducated get a lousy deal.  But how to
> solve this, is another question.  No problem is ever solved, only replaced
> by new problems.
>    Capitalism versus socialism?  The problem is the people: humanity.
> Greed will be victorious whatever the system.  Educating people to be
> ethical, not to take advantage of the position if which they are, could
> help.  But education is only getting worse, not better.  People in the
> ivory towers are full of good will, but their efforts always fail.  Because
> they don't take into consideration that execution of tasks is in the hands
> of greedy, often careless people, who will do just as little as possible,
> to get a paycheck.  And my respect to the exceptions, and there are plenty
> of those.  But they trash in rapid waters, trying to save the drowning,
> then drown themselves
> Glory be!
>
> Karoly
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: What is demagoguery? ( 86 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 19:52:02 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>         First, let me thank Aniko for that wonderful, up-to-date piece on
> her experiences in Hungary only a few days ago. Budapest is thriving, no
> question about it. Unemployment is practically nonexistent and as several
> people on Internet lists said on the spot: anyone can get a job who wants to
> get it. In some other parts of the Hungary the situation is not that rosy,
> especially in the northeast. And yes, there is a large segment of the
> population--retired people mostly--who are very badly off. These people are
> the loosers of the "rendszervaltozas. And people we call "civil servants,"
> (kozalkalmazottak) teachers and some doctors who don't get too many
> "envelopes" containing thousands of forints from the patients to make sure
> that they get special treatment also consider themselves loosers .
>
>         Aniko, visiting the country once or twice a year, sees the changes
> ever more sharply than the ones who live there. Moreover, those people--and
> that includes the right as well as the left--who are unhappy with the
> introduction of market economy and democracy--emphasize only the negative
> aspects of the changes and thus, giving basically a distorted picture of
> Hungarian society and economic life. And these people influence public
> opinion more and more against the new regime. Now, let me emphasize again, I
> am not happy about the corruption of the political elite; I am not happy
> about many, many things, including the way Hungary has squandered its
> economic advantage in comparison to Czechoslovakia and Poland; but I am
> optimistic that in five or ten years Hungary will be infinitely better off
> than it is today. And I mean, all segments of society. I consider the people
> who write articles like this demagogs. This is the article Barna Bozoki
> published in Forum and asked the people whether the situation was really
> that bad:
>
> >"Persze rengeteg jo tanacsot kapunk: kerelmezheto a kozgyogyellatas,
> >reszletfizetest kerhetunk az elektromos muvektol, a piacon a hullott
> >barackot es csirkebort olcsobban lehet vasarolni, a lyukas ciponket
> >kitomhetjuk ujsagpapirral, az onkormanyzatnal sorba allhatunk segelyert,
> >szoval sok minden van, ami meg lehet, amit meg lehetne probalni, ha eleg
> >egeszsegesek es alazatosak vagyunk hozza, ha meg elni akarunk, ha azt
> >hisszuk, hogy szamit meg valakinek, hogy hazat epitettunk, gyereket
> >tanitottunk, unokat dajkaltunk, berelszamoltunk, konyvet irtunk, ha azt
> >hisszuk, hogy valakinek fontosak vagyunk, mert itt szulettunk, mert ez az
> >anyanyelvunk, mert egyszeruen emberek vagyunk. Torodjunk bele, hogy nem.
> >Hogy nem jar nekunk semmi."
>
> English translation:
>
> "Of course, we get an awful lot of good advice: one can request public
> medical service, we can request partial payments from the electric company;
> we can buy fallen peaches and chicken skin cheaper on the market; we can
> stuff our shoes with newspapers when there is a hole; we can stand in line
> for relief. So, there are many things, which are possible, which we can try,
> if we want to survive, if we believe that it makes a difference to anyone
> that we used to build houses, we used to teach, we used to babysit for our
> grandchildren, we worked as accountants, we wrote books, if we believe that
> we are important, because we were born here, because this is our mother
> tongue, because we are just ordinary people. We should admit that that we
> are not important. Let's face it that we don't deserve anything!"
>
>         I found it especially interesting that the lady who wrote this piece
> was one of the worst, most subservient writers of the Rakosi regime. Barna
> Bozoki remembered her as the author of lovely stories for teenagers. Yes,
> she was that also and some people, the ones who are younger than we are,
> remember her only that way. But there was more to Klara Feher, the author of
> these lines, than lovely books written for teenagers. She was one of the
> most despicable, subservient writers and journalists of the Rakosi regime.
> Some people of my age who stayed in Hungary remembered her from the Kadar
> regime as well and apparently she wasn't exactly a reform-communist during
> that period either. And this woman today (she died shortly after writing
> this article) is writing in a tone which is basically the tone the far
> right. This woman who received all the awards the old regime ever deviced
> (Kossuth, Attila Jozsef, God knows what else) is writing as being one of the
> "ordinary people." You know the kind who has to eat fallen peaches and the
> skin of chicken. Well, I think it is sickening! Absolutely sickening!
>
>         And what I find even more sickening is that all the right wingers on
> the Forum stand by good old Klara Feher. Communist? Rakosi regime? A cheat?
> The author of the most God-awful communist drivel? Never mind. She is one of
> us now! Let's work on public opinion and let's try to make sure that neither
> democracy nor market economy will work around here. And a few days after the
> appearance of this piece of drivel, the skinheads lead by a neo-nazi are
> throwing chicken feet on the stairs of a public building "in order to call
> attention to the plight of the retired people." Now, this is really neat!
> Words do have power, don't they? Chicken feet? I guess it is hard to throw
> chicken skin!
>
>         Sorry, being carried away, but I find this sickening. And by the
> way, it never fails: strange bedfellows can be found on this list also, when
> it comes to demagoguery.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: poverty ( 57 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 19:53:38 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 01:51 AM 11/7/96 -0600, Andras Kornai wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >I find the view that E1va, Barna, and Joe are agreeing on rather naive.
> >Surely, being poor is the "dog bites man" case that requires no special
> >explanation, and being rich is the "man bites dog" case that causes a
> >sensation. Animals are poor. They live lives that are short and brutish.
> >So did the vast majority of humankind until the 20th century.
>
> So there's no need to do anything about it, right?  The poor should just
> count their blessing that they're living in this century and not the last,
> right?
>
> >Pockets of lessened poverty, even to the minimal extent of having one's basi
c
> >needs (food, clothing, shelter) taken care of, have started to emerge on a
> >societal scale only after the industrial revolution, and the phenomenon of
> >having a large segment of the population that could be called well to do is
> >quite new, and still restricted to the major industrial nations. Meanwhile,
> >billions of people still live in dire poverty.
>
> Having basic (food, clothing, shelter) human needs met was not something
> that "emerged" and the fact that some people are "well to do" is not a
> "phenomenon".  It was something that was fought for.  It was, and continues
> to be, a struggle.
>
> >At one point Henry Ford started to pay his workers above the going rate, an
> >idea that seemed extremely strange at the time, but one that caught on
> >eventually. From that point onwards it became possible to get rich without
> >exploiting your fellow man, and Balzac's aphorism that at the foundation of
> >every large fortune there is a major crime ceased to be true. Bill Gates
> >didn't get to be the richest man in America by exploiting his workers, in
> >fact there are thousands of employees who became millionaires at Microsoft.
> >One might of course argue that DOS was a major crime...
>
> Isn't it the exception, or the few exceptions, that proves the rule?
>
> >Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
> >blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
> >if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but perhaps
> >switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the weather.
> >Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its problems
> >are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are caused
> >by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.
>
> Oh, Andra1s!  Your analogies are often quite good, even humourous and
> insightful, but the above stinks.  People are not crops and society is not a
> "device to make life less brutish and short".  Then again, I can agree with
> you that poverty doesn't cause social problems.  Greed does!  And please
> don't tell me that the poor are greedy.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> In the 1950's Henry Ford II had just automated another plant.  He said to
> United Auto Workers president Walter Reuther: "How are you going to get
> these machines to pay union dues?"  Reuther replied: "How are you going to
> get them to buy cars?"
>               CALM
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 21 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 19:53:44 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 04:46 AM 11/7/96 -0800, Charlie Vamossy wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Ok Joe, you made your point.  US citizens also pay sales taxes and property
> >taxes, where and when applicable.   But what does that have to do with
> >voting rights?  Is anyone in Canada denied access to the voting booths
> >because they are behind paying their property taxes?  Or because they have
> >not bought gasoline, tobacco or alcohol in the last 30 days?
> >
> >Taxes, for the most part, are not tied to citizenship, while voting is.  As
> >a US citizen (or as a Hungarian citizen) visiting Canada (as I did last
> >summer) I have to pay GST when I buy gas, stay in a hotel, etc.  Having paid
> >these Canadian taxes, however, does not assure me right to vote there.
>
> The point I was trying to make was, "no taxation without representation".
> And you're right that taxes for the most part are not tied to citizenship,
> while voting is.  What I have a problem with is people who want to vote in
> more than one election because of dual citizenship or because they pay taxes
> on investments in foreign countries.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: The Value of the Internet Discussion ( 49 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 20:02:03 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 12:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >I was referring to my post on the Hungarian language FORUM quoting a well
> >known ex-communist writer's writing about poverty. I was disappointed that
> >the discussion turned into a bashing of the writers character, rather than
> >a discussion of the message.
>
> Not that it's right, but such behaviour comes with the territory.  Political
> discussion is not everyone's cup of tea.
>
> >But aside from this specific case, I don't agree that there can be no
> >failure in a discussion. If one writes with a purpose and the desired
> >result is not achieved the writing is a failure.
>
> This sounds too mechanical to me, Barna.  When you go into a dark room and
> turn the light switch on, the room becomes lit.  People and ideas usually
> don't have a handy little on/off switch.  What that means is that lots of
> time and patience is needed.  A tough skin is also helpful.
>
> >Earlier this year I wrote about the World Federation of Hungarians. My
> >purpose was to provide input to the reorganization of the Canadian Council
> >of this organization. No one responded. So I failed to convince the
> >readers, that it is our interest to care about this organization.
>
> You would have failed if you didn't try.  You tried.  You did what you could
> at the time.  In my eyes that's not failure.  Not all attempts are
> successful but surely that's not reason enough to not try.
>
> >Last year I tried to solicit help to put Hungarian books on a CD and on the
> >Internet. A few people indicated that they would help, but very few did.
>
> >I very much enjoy our discussion about poverty, but I have no
> >illusions that we are helping a cause.
>
> I wouldn't be so dismissive about discussion.  People form their ideas and
> opinions by what they hear, see, learn, experience, etc.  What you and I and
> others discuss will become part of other people's experience.  Changes may
> happen and causes may be helped but it'll take time.  Sometimes the process
> is painfully slow but I think it's better than the alternatives.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> "Freedom is hammered out on the anvil of discussion, dissent, and debate."
>             Hubert H. Humphrey
>
> "If we had had more time for discussion we should probably have made a great
> many more mistakes."
>             Leon Trotsky
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 15 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 20:02:10 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 12:47 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki, responding to Eva Durant, wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >I would love to see a better system. I consider it obscene that CEO's,
> >baseball and movie stars pocket millions dollars, while millions of people
> >can not feed their kids. Unfortunately I don't know anybody who can propose
> >and implement a viable alternative. So until we find the Messiah who can
> >change the system, I think we should do what we can to embarrass our
> >politicians to do what they can to reduce poverty.
>
> In this century almost every "Messiah" has turned out to be "Beelzebub".
> Perhaps we'd be better off if we stopped waiting for Messiah's to lead us.
> As for your last sentance, all I can say is, "right on".
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [France]
> Temakor: Kapcsolat felvetel ( 7 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 20:41:25 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Szeretnek felvenni kapcsolatot magyar szemelyekkel
>
> ismerkedes celjabol.
>
> PARIS 07/11/96
>
> > E-mail : 
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 46 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 20:50:31 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 7:22 PM 11/6/96, S or G Farkas wrote:
> >At 02:46 PM 11/6/96 +0000, Dr. Nandor Balogh brings up the 1956 revolution
> >in this thread.  I would like to ask in this context a question of those who
> >participated in the revolution (I was too young and lived in Romania):
> >
> >In the book Cry Hungary (that was mentioned recently on this list) there is
> >a series of photographs, showing the summary execution of a group of
> >AVO-members by freedom fighters. Those executed were  apparently unarmed,
> >they  look very young, probably conscripts. Does anybody know what happened
> >there, how frequent was this kind of "justice" and what happened to those
> >who acted as judges and executioners?
> >
> >Gabor D. Farkas
>
> When the prisons were opened in Hungary, not only the political prisoners
> but criminals were  also let out. Some of them participated in the
> revolution, some of them committed new crimes. During the siege of the
> Budapest communist party headquarters the attackers executed some of their
> prisoners, hanged and mutilated others. The siege was filmed by western
> reporters and many pictures about the attrocities later appeared in LIFE
> magazine. Using these pictures Kadar's police later identified the
> participants, for example, a  BESZKART woman who was spitting on the corps
> of a mutilated soldier hanged upside down on a tree on Koztarsasag Square.
> The Kadar regime punished the participants. One of the soldiers facing the
> firing squad survived. There were several lamp-post affairs throughout
> Budapest. A few dozen people died, some of them innocently. The
> Mosonmagyarovar massacre was followed up by lynching. In front of the
> parliament demonstrators were fired upon; 100 persons died or were wounded.
> The people were infuriated.
>
> As a leader of an armed student patrol a crowd led my men to the apartment
> of an AVH men. We arrested the suspect and escorted him to a police
> station. On the way to the police we had to protect the man from a crowd
> which wanted to hang him. As late as November 3, I had been attacked by a
> group of men who took me for an AVH man because I wore beige shoes and a
> Czech raincoat. An army patrol saved my life.
>
> These occurrences were sharply condemned by numerous revolutionary groups;
> the free Hungarian press, the Writers' Union and leaders of armed fighters
> also spoke out against lynch-justice.
>
> Kadar took his revenge. From the end of 1956 to 1959 about 35,000 persons
> were investigated. 26,000 faced the courts, 22,000 were sentenced. 13,000
> were interned. 350 were executed.
>
> Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
>
> =======================================================
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> E-mail :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Poverty in Hungary ( 48 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 21:54:36 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, CHARLES J CSIPKAY wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > As an ex-member of what the Marxists called (quite accurately)
> > the 'ruling class'  in the Horthy era (and my ancestors before me before WW
> > I) I think I have at least some eyewitness perspective on the issue.
>
> I appreciate the ruling class perspective of this issue, I see it from the
> proletariate's perspective. As an amateur genealogist I collected a lot of
> oral history from the time of about 1845 of the struggles of my relatives,
> most of them tradesmen, like a mechanic in an estate, a village hatmaker
> with nine kids, etc. It was a struggle for all of them. One common theme in
> all their stories that there were decent places of work, but most places
> were cruel and demeaning. It is not the lack of food, but the lack of
> respect they got hurt them most.
>
> > And in this respect the difference between poor Hungarians and poor Slovaks
> > or Rumanians was about the same as between the 'white trash' and the
> > 'niggers' here a hundred years (or less) ago.
>
> I agree. The only difference I would point out, that the Slovak or Romanian
> peasants got some moral support and a promise of a better life in a free
> Slovakia or Romania from their priests, while the Hungarian surfs got a
> lecture to bear their cross and respect their masters.
>
> I do not think I am alone with my view that the Hungarian ruling class's
> attitude to the poor contributed to the nationality problems, which in turn
> led to the dismemberment of the country.
>
> I personally heard Albert Wass blaming his family and his class, for not
> treating the people such that they could love their country. As most
> people know, he is a count from Transylvania and now lives in the US.
>
> Gyula Illyes in his book "Ebed a kastelyban" describes a discussion with
> his former landowner shortly after the 1945 landreform in his book "Ebed a
> kastelyban" (Dinner in the Castle). The count's attempt to find excuses
> for Illyes's accusations comes out very hollow.
>
> Lajos Kassak in his autobiography "Egy ember elete" (Life of a Man)
> about the life of a tradesman in Budapest supports my father's story. A
> clerk in a office with grade eight education was a gentlemen. A tradesmen
> in a factory was nobody, and this is after the World War I.
>
> But this is history now, the only reason to think about it, is not to
> repeat it. Antall reminded people of this world, and this is why his party
> lost.
>
> Barna Bozoki
>
> =======================================================
> Felado : Zsargo Janos
> E-mail :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 20 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 22:05:16 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> J.Szalai wrote, refering to Mr.Csizsik-Csatary and Mr.Katriuk:
>
> >I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
> >criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
> >that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that society
> >has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
> >I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
> >criminals.
>
> he also wrote, refering to our 'avos' and communist 'heroes':
>
> >Do you not want the vicious cycle of revenge and retribution in Hungary to
> >end?  I do.
> >
> >Joe Szalai
>
> Good! Why do you think Mr.Csizsik-Csatary was guiltier than those in the AVO?
> Don't you think you have a nice, well-developed double standard?
>
> J.Zs
>
> =======================================================
> Felado : Farkas D. Gabor
> E-mail :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 19 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 22:15:13 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 07:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> >At 12:47 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki, responding to Eva Durant, wrote:
>
> ><snip>
> >> So until we find the Messiah who can
> >>change the system, I think we should do what we can to embarrass our
> >>politicians to do what they can to reduce poverty.
> >
> ><Snip-snip>
> >As for your last sentence, all I can say is, "right on".
>
> Here we go again. What can politicians do to reduce poverty? Tax those who
> have more and give it to those who have less. This just does not work.
>
> In any case, I would not trust a politician to care for my cat (if I had
> one), so why trust them with solving the poverty problem?
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 20 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 22:21:45 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 01:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >        God, you are hopeless. Sure, the multinationals didn't go to Hungary
> >to do charity work or lose money. Sure, they want to make money and
> >eventually they will even make profit. (For a number of years they will not
> >because of the heavy investments needed originally to modernize or establish
> >plants.) But, while they are making profit for themselves they are also
> >paying taxes, they are employing thousands of workers whom they pay quite
> >well, and bring hard currency into the country.
>
> Hmmm, instead of working for the Vatican, Mother Teresa should be working
> for a multinational.  What, with all the good they do, it wouldn't look good
> on any Nobel Prize winner to be outclassed.
>
> By the way,  does anyone know who the employee of the week was at the
> McDonalds next to the Nyugati pu. in Budapest?  And, is it true that
> Russians call a 'Big Mac' a 'Bolshoi Mac'?
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 13 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 22:32:49 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 01:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >        Quite right, Joe. "Hungarians have no choice but to put their hopes
> >into yet another venture." If it doesn't pan out it is not because it is
> >unworkable but because the joint effort of left and right will torpedo it.
>
> So, what would you like to see?  A national coalition government?  That
> would probably work but it's a non starter.  Those whose standard of living
> has fallen since 1989 will not agree to a 'common cause' with those whose
> standard rose.  Hungarians lack a viable social contract.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 30 sor )
> Idopont: Fri Nov  8 00:33:25 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 09:52 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> >J.Szalai wrote, refering to Mr.Csizsik-Csatary and Mr.Katriuk:
> >
> >>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
> >>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
> >>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that societ
y
> >>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
> >>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
> >>criminals.
> >
> >he also wrote, refering to our 'avos' and communist 'heroes':
> >
> >>Do you not want the vicious cycle of revenge and retribution in Hungary to
> >>end?  I do.
> >>
> >>Joe Szalai
> >
> >Good! Why do you think Mr.Csizsik-Csatary was guiltier than those in the AVO
?
> >Don't you think you have a nice, well-developed double standard?
> >
> >J.Zs
>
> I didn't say anything about Csizsik-Csatary's guilt or innocence.  I said
> that he should be treated properly and that under Canadian law he is
> innocent until proven guilty.
>
> So what's your problem?
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 60 sor )
> Idopont: Fri Nov  8 00:43:53 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 07:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >The point I was trying to make was, "no taxation without representation".
> >And you're right that taxes for the most part are not tied to citizenship,
> >while voting is.  What I have a problem with is people who want to vote in
> >more than one election because of dual citizenship or because they pay taxes
> >on investments in foreign countries.
> >
> >Joe Szalai
> >
> >
>
> I think you may have meant "no representation without taxes." But anyway, I
> think we have already agreed that taxes have nothing to do with voting rights
.
>
> Also, before we tackle the thornier issue of dual citizenship rights, maybe
> we can also agree that the current Hungarian constitution unreasonably
> denies absentee voting rights to those who are citizens of Hungary only (and
> probably pay Hungarian taxes, too, although that's immaterial), for the sole
> fact that they are absent.  While it may be explainable that it is difficult
> to ensure that everyone who is absent has the opportunity to vote, the
> Hungarian Constitution simply states that only those who are inside the
> country on election day may vote.  If you are absent from your polling place
> but within Hungary, you can vote with an absentee ballot (thus the mechanism
> exists).  If you are just a bit further across the border, you are out of
> luck and constitutionally barred from voting, even though the mail system
> work just as well if not better.
>
> Note, also, that the Constitution allows ALL citizens inside Hungary on
> election day, even those who permanently live outside Hungary.  So any
> argument based on taxes, feeling the results of the vote, knowing local
> issues, etc, have nothing to do with the problem.  You can reside on the
> moon and return to Hungary for the first time in your life, as long as you
> are a Hungarian citizen (maybe by virtue of your parentage), you can vote.
> So much for Gyula Horn and his supporters' argument.  Maybe they should
> study the Hungarian Constitution a little, before they speak.
>
> As far as dual citizenship is concerned, I agree that holding two or more
> citizenship at the same time is somewhat unusual and perhaps questionable to
> some people.  Yet these things exist and each country has the sovereign
> right to define who is a citizen and how one becomes one.  As a child of
> divorced parents (and as a divorced and remarried father) I can understand
> how one may accept two separate families as one's own and somehow learn to
> exist with the anomaly.  As a native Hungarian citizen who never gave up his
> citizenship and as a refugee to the US who was grateful for the welcome and
> the chance to establish an existence at a time when Hungary considered me a
> fugitive and probably a criminal for taking part ion the revolution and for
> leaving the country illegally, I have learned to live with the fact that I
> am indeed a citizen of two countries.
>
> The question is that can I, as a citizen, be denied the most basic of
> rights, the right to participate in the democratic process.  Ordinarily, one
> of three conditions would prevent me from the right to vote:  being a minor,
> mental illness or a prior criminal record.  Hungary, unfortunately, adds a
> fourth condition:  out of sight, out of right.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Charlie Vamossy
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Re: Magyar versek az Interneten ( 32 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 09:27:21 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Szabo Attila >:
> >
> >   Irdekelne hogy vannak-e magyar versek valahol a Web-en, ugyanis
> >feltettem az sajatomat meg az anyamit is ezekhez az amatvr versekhez
> >valami profi linkeket szeretnik kapcsolni ;-)
> >
> >A verseim URL cmme:
> >
> >    http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/2707/versek.htm
> >
> >  Minden vtletet is ztbaigazmtast elvre is megkvszvnok.
> >
> >  Szabs Attila
> >
> Kedves Attila!
>
> Rakattintottam az URL-etekre: teljesen igazad van abban, hogy profi linkeket
> szeretnel kapcsolni ezekhez az amator versekhez.
>
> Hirtelenjeben az alabbiakat talaltam:
>
> Ady-, Babits- es Jozsef Attila-versek:
> http://www.btk.elte.hu/~celia/ja/versek2.htm
>
> Matko Peter (Debreceni Orvostud. Egyetem) kedvelt olvasmanyai, kozottuk egy
> Kosztolanyi- es egy Radnoti-vers:
> http://jaguar.dote.hu/~peter/read/pet_olv.html
>
> A Magyar Elektronikus Konyvtarat is erdemes megnezni:
> GOPHER://gopher.mek.iif.hu/
>
> Jalsovszky Gyorgy
>
>
>
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+ - Re: poverty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

HIX HUNGARY writes:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Issue____________: *** HUNGARY 841 ***
> Date_____________: Fri Nov  8 00:44:04 EST 1996
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>
> Tartalomjegyzek:
> ----------------
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Triangle Hungarians ( 16 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: poverty ( 46 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United Kingdom]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 29 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 35 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United Kingdom]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 82 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 18 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 29 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes ( 30 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Non-Profit Organization]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 9 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Non-Profit Organization]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 12 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Non-Profit Organization]
> Temakor: Re: HAL: How to help the csangos? ( 39 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 21 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Laszlo Hunyadi ( 88 sor )
>
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 42 sor )
>
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> Temakor: Re: poverty ( 27 sor )
>
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> Temakor: The Value of the Internet Discussion ( 28 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Taxonomy ( 13 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 12 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 23 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes ( 10 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 33 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 14 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 170 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Hungarian Revolution ( 52 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 105 sor )
>
> Felado : Zsargo Janos
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 20 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Poverty in Hungary ( 57 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: What is demagoguery? ( 86 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: poverty ( 57 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 21 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: The Value of the Internet Discussion ( 49 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 15 sor )
>
> Felado :  [France]
> Temakor: Kapcsolat felvetel ( 7 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 46 sor )
>
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> Temakor: Re: Poverty in Hungary ( 48 sor )
>
> Felado : Zsargo Janos
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 20 sor )
>
> Felado : Farkas D. Gabor
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 19 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 20 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 13 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 30 sor )
>
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 60 sor )
>
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Re: Magyar versek az Interneten ( 32 sor )
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Triangle Hungarians ( 16 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 01:37:05 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> This is for any Magyars or Magyarphiles in the Raleigh-Durham, North
> Carolina area:
>
> The Hungarian American Club of the Triangle Meeting
> Sunday, November 10
> 5 p.m.
> Pirate's Cove Club House, Cary
> Program: Living healthy -- vitamins and exercises by Drs. Istvan Takacs
> and George Nemecz
> Please bring your favorite covered dish
>
> E-mail me if you need directions.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
> -- Bob Dole's last words
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: poverty ( 46 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 02:52:45 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> > Felado :  [United Kingdom]
> >
> > So, the next question is - what causes poverty?
> > Hungary is not unique in having that problem, and I
> > agree with  you on the topic.
> > =======================================================
> > Felado :  [Canada]
> > At 01:08 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:
> > >My belief is that the
> > >root cause of most social ills is poverty. I would be interested to know
> > >the background of the people involved in the crimes you quoted above. I
> > >would guess that most of them came from disadvantaged families.
> >
> > You're probably right.  And yes, I'd agree that poverty is the root cause
> > of most social ills.
> I find the view that E1va, Barna, and Joe are agreeing on rather naive.
> Surely, being poor is the "dog bites man" case that requires no special
> explanation, and being rich is the "man bites dog" case that causes a
> sensation. Animals are poor. They live lives that are short and brutish.
> So did the vast majority of humankind until the 20th century.
>
> Pockets of lessened poverty, even to the minimal extent of having one's basic
> needs (food, clothing, shelter) taken care of, have started to emerge on a
> societal scale only after the industrial revolution, and the phenomenon of
> having a large segment of the population that could be called well to do is
> quite new, and still restricted to the major industrial nations. Meanwhile,
> billions of people still live in dire poverty.
>
> At one point Henry Ford started to pay his workers above the going rate, an
> idea that seemed extremely strange at the time, but one that caught on
> eventually. From that point onwards it became possible to get rich without
> exploiting your fellow man, and Balzac's aphorism that at the foundation of
> every large fortune there is a major crime ceased to be true. Bill Gates
> didn't get to be the richest man in America by exploiting his workers, in
> fact there are thousands of employees who became millionaires at Microsoft.
> One might of course argue that DOS was a major crime...
>
> Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
> blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
> if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but perhaps
> switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the weather.
> Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its problems
> are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are caused
> by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.
>
> Andra1s Kornai
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United Kingdom]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 29 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 07:14:07 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Probably there are a few poverty stricken 3rd world
> countries whose 90%+ export comes from multinationals.
> It doesn't mean less poverty, and usually means free
> roam over the people and the environment, the more
> secure the dictatorship, the better... Just look at
> Wales, UK...  Even if official figures show growth
> and better employment figures, that is no way an indicator
> of rising living standards for the poor, or even the
> "bottom 60%".  Look at the US, waving these figures
> means nothing, the new jobs are insecure and low income,
> poverty is getting worse, the (top)rich is getting richer.
>
> Nationalistic crap? Yes, if some people think, that
> multinationals can be replaced with "pure" hungarian
> capitalists, with pure hearts, who will save the nation
> and feed the poor... There are some demagogues who says
> that and some unfortunates, who believe that.
>
> 
>
> >
> >         Put it that way. Seventy-five percent of Hungary's export comes fro
m
> > the multinationals. This is what makes Hungary better off than it would be
> > otherwise. Thanks to foreign investments--highest in the region--Hungary ha
s
> > a good chance of recovering from the slump. So, please, don't bring up all
> > that nationalistic crap about selling out and all that. Foreign companies
> > are doing a lot of good in Hungary.
> >
> >         Eva Balogh
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 35 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 07:47:57 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >At 03:34 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >>        Sounds nice but it isn't true in today's world. (It wasn't true eve
n
> >>then but more about that later.) The right to vote is in no way connected t
o
> >>taxation. Everyone who reaches eighteen--in most countries--are eligible to
> >>vote without any reference whatsoever to taxes. In fact, many, many
> >>eighteen-year olds don't pay taxes: they are still in school. Unemployed
> >>people don't pay taxes and yet they are eligible to vote. Retired people,
> >>living only a social security, don't pay taxes, yet they can vote.
> >>Housewives who don't have jobs and thus don't pay taxes can vote.
> >
> >Wow!  Strike me dead!  It sounds soooo utopian.  Is it any wonder Eva Balogh
> >likes the United States?  We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
> >the GST.  We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.  The
> >unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxes
> >(one way or an other).  I wannabe an American!
> >
> >Joe Szalai
> >
> >
>
> Ok Joe, you made your point.  US citizens also pay sales taxes and property
> taxes, where and when applicable.   But what does that have to do with
> voting rights?  Is anyone in Canada denied access to the voting booths
> because they are behind paying their property taxes?  Or because they have
> not bought gasoline, tobacco or alcohol in the last 30 days?
>
> Taxes, for the most part, are not tied to citizenship, while voting is.  As
> a US citizen (or as a Hungarian citizen) visiting Canada (as I did last
> summer) I have to pay GST when I buy gas, stay in a hotel, etc.  Having paid
> these Canadian taxes, however, does not assure me right to vote there.
>
> Charlie Vamossy
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United Kingdom]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 82 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 07:59:23 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> >
> > There are people who live below the poverty line because they are sick,
> > there are others in this situation because of some temporary set back in
> > their own life or in the society. For example, thousands of immigrants come
> > to Canada every year, and many of them end up on the welfare role for a
> > period of time, but most of them escape after a few years. Or a lot of
> > fishermen ended up on the dole, because the cod disappeared from the sea.
> > And there are those who choose to be poor, they prefer to live a simple
> > life on maigre income or social assistance. So it is very difficult to
> > determine how many people are in that hopeless condition where they become
> > alienated, bitter, and destructive.
> >
>
> The Hungarian you mention below, won't be happy with your descrip-
> tion, you subscribe the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
> The idea, that people actually "choose" to be poor is ridiculous,
> and is made by people who isolated from poor people.
> Getting the only available, low pay and usually dehumanisisng
> job in 99%+ of the cases cannot lift you out of poverty.
>
> People probably do more creative work if they try to lead
> a healthy life and study instead - usually the benefits
> are not adequate for that. If  parents didn't get
> anywhere in their lifetime, there will be no ambition
> and self respect to to pass on. So will you condemn
> such a family as the "undeserving"?
>
> There is very little unskilled physical work necessary
> to manufacture all the necessities of the modern society.
> Industrial/agricultural employees number around 20% of
> all employees now.  So without education for work and
> for enjoyment/culture, there will be no end to poverty
> anywhere. Capitalism is not able to supply the
> material conditions for this, even if it wanted to.
>
>
> > I also think that there is a difference between the way the Americans and
> > Hungarians (Europeans?) treat the poor. The rich here seem to treat the
> > poor with more respect. I recall a discussion with an old Hungarian
> > immigrant in '57. He was as poor as the church mouse, but told me very
> > proudly: I don't have to kiss the hand of anybody here.
> >
>
> I think in America the poor is treated with more contempt
> and even hatred, than in Europe. In Europe (minus UK)
>  a larger percent of
> the profits (in principle) is put into welfare and
> education - but it is still far from enough, and in
> the last decade, things are getting worse.
>
> >
> > I read some convincing arguments, that the Western monetary system is about
> > to collapse, because the national debt can not be contained. [i.e. J. S.
> > Jaikaram: Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing, 1992]. These theories were
> > developed, when the inflation was high in America. But now the inflation is
> > under control, the national debt is going down, the stock market is
> > booming, the imminent death of capitalism is less threatening.
> >
>
> Inflation figures, national debt, stock market figures don't
> change the poverty figures, or even the tendency of more and more
> people getting  into the "poor" pool.   Capitalism is not able
> to deliver the goods, only the figures...
>
>
> > May be with persistent lobbying it is possible to achieve, that poverty
 would
> > not be tolerated in a civilized society, regardless of the economic system.
> >
>
> Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
> It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
> good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
> What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
> all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
> than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
> goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
> sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
> but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
> the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.
>
>
> 
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 18 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 08:07:24 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> In article >,
> Janos Zsargo > writes:
>
> > I think this is right, however I disagree with
> >G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals
> >in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is
> >no difference between them criminals and judges.
>
> How about sentencing them to serve in godawful places like Rwanda and
> Kurdistan with international relief agencies if they're found guilty? It
> might do much to remind them of the cost of inhumanity and actually induce
> a sense of guilt and shame in them for what they did as younger men.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "What do a tornado and a
> North Carolina divorce have
> in common? Either way, someone's
> gonna lose a mobile home."
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 29 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 08:07:30 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> In article >, "Denes BOGSANYI"
> > writes:
>
> >I would be very interested to find out more details concerning Ladislaus
> >Csiszik-Csatary and his connection with the Royal Hungarian Police. What
> >rank and what position did he hold in the critical years? It is important
> >that these men not be hounded just because they were sent to carry out an
> >unpleasant job under threat of dire consequences if they did not. Based
> on
> >his age he would probably have been a very junior rank and with very
> little
> >power to influence the course of events.
> >
> >
>
> Point well taken. Csiszik-Csatary, however, would have been 30 years old
> in 1944. That's not very young for a military or national police officer,
> particularly during the latter part of a war that has already absorbed a
> large portion of the nation's men for service in the armed forces outside
> the country's border. He may have held a fairly high rank under wartime
> conditions. We do need to know more details of what he is accused of doing
> before we either convict him, acquit him or forget him and go back to
> quarreling over the merits of "forradalom" versus "szabadsagharc."
> Sam Stowe
>
> "What do a tornado and a
> North Carolina divorce have
> in common? Either way, someone's
> gonna lose a mobile home."
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes ( 30 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 08:09:33 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> In article >, "Eva S.
> Balogh" > writes:
>
> >Agnes had some difficulty sending the list the following. I am sending it
> on
> >to the list on her behalf:
> >
> >Yesterday I saw Elmer Gantry again on Bravo - our commercial-free movie
> >TV.  I saw it first when it came out, in 1960.  I liked it very much
> >then, although I didn't understand half of it.  I saw it with Spanish
> >subtitles and neither my Spanish nor my English was up to understanding
> >the nuances of the language.  I was also very unfamiliar with
> >North American society.
> >
> >Yesterday, after 36 years, I realized the story is timeless.  The Elmer
> >Gantrys are still with us.  And the reason I am posting this here is that
> >they were intruding this list too - I am just sharing my feelings with
> >you guys and girls.
> >
> >Agnes
>
> You really ought to read Sinclair Lewis's book "Elmer Gantry," Agnes. (The
> movie is based on it.) He didn't win the Nobel Prize for Literature for
> nothing.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "What do a tornado and a
> North Carolina divorce have
> in common? Either way, someone's
> gonna lose a mobile home."
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Non-Profit Organization]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 9 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 09:00:07 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> <SNIPPETY>
> > Well, if I cared *that* much about voting, I'd rearrange my plans.  Besides
,
> > in many jurisdictions there's advance voting and voting by proxy.
> >
> > Joe Szalai
> ++++ The issue is that you can vote IF you vote in advance or via proxy.
> In HU however, if you are NOT physically there then no cigar!
> Peter Soltesz
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Non-Profit Organization]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 12 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 09:46:44 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> <SNIP...>
> > Wow!  Strike me dead!  It sounds soooo utopian.  Is it any wonder Eva Balog
h
> > likes the United States?  We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
> > the GST.  We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.  The
> > unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxe
s
> > (one way or an other).  I wannabe an American!
> >
> > Joe Szalai
> >
> ++++++ Joe...Perhaps you can ask the Ontario Gov't to apply for Statehood?
> Eh?
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Non-Profit Organization]
> Temakor: Re: HAL: How to help the csangos? ( 39 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 10:02:08 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Dear Bela Liptak:
> Thank you for the information on the Csangos conditions and suggestions
> on how to help. If I may, I would like to point out a few items to
> further assist:
>
> The information for Duna - TV
> should contain their telephone number:
> +36+1+156-0122
> and their E-mail address (for those not wishing to fax):
> 
>
> Moreover, the raw data:
> Istok Gyorgy
> Com: Cleja  Code: 5529
> Jud: Bacau
> Romania
>
> Help for the Gyimes csangos can be sent to:
>
> Deaky Andras, Director
> Scoala Generala Ghimes
> 5494 Ghimes-Faget
> Jud. Bacau
> Romania
> (Telephone in the school: 14, at home: 21)
>
> +++The Telephone number is really missing:
>
> One requires
> international access (011  in the USA)
> country code: 40
> Area code (Bacu) 31
> The actual central office number ???
> Telephone number (I guess that is the 14 [at school] and 21 [at home]
>
> Perhaps you can obtain the REAL telephone number?
>
> Thank you and regards,
> Peter Soltesz
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 21 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 10:56:20 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 12:49 PM 11/7/96 +0000, Eva Durant wrote:
>
> >Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
> >It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
> >good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
> >What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
> >all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
> >than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
> >goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
> >sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
> >but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
> >the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.
> >
> >
>
> Although I don't agree with your premise that capitalism, or better called,
> free market economy needs to be replaced with another system, still, I would
> be interested in learning what would you replace it with and how would you
> go about doing it?
>
> Charlie Vamossy
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Laszlo Hunyadi ( 88 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 11:16:32 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>  (George Szaszvari) wrote:
>
> >>Has it ever crossed your mind that, in the past years, Hungarian
> >>historical literature was extremely biased from a nationalistic
> >>viewpoint, exactly as it was its Romanian counterpart?
>
> >Did you not notice my comment about *the influence of my forebears*?
>
> Yes. And since the forebears' influence acts upon everybody, me
> included, I was curious to know if you ever suspected nationalistic
> bias in their teachings. What's  wrong with that?
>
> >Getting shirty and replying with tit for tat point scoring is not
> >terribly productive!
>
> Why do I get the feeling that you are not practicing what you are
> actually preaching?
>
> >...but you don't say anything about ancient surviving dialects, etc.
>
> And there is a very good reason for that: the language spoken in
> present-day Romania and Moldova is,  and probably always was,
> characterized by a surprisingly low linguistic differentiation; it has
> no dialects.
>
> > I'm suggesting that
> >the Rumini language was born from and nutured by the long Byzantine
> >influence in the area (as opposed to earlier Dacian-Roman claims).
>
> Starting with the 6th century, Greek was the predominant language of
> the Byzantine Empire. Romanian language shares common 8th century
> Latin innovations with some northern and southern Italian dialects.
> Therefore, while it is possible that Romanians' ancestors were, prior
> to the Slavic invasions, among the so-called Rhomaioi (the East Roman
> subjects), it is hard to believe that post-6th century Byzantium
> influence over the Romanian cradle, wherever that cradle located, was
> linguistically significant.
>
> >>>It is interesting that long periods of Russian, Lithuanian, Turkish
> >>>Ottoman and Hungarian control of territories now known as Romania did
> >>>not snuff out the usage and development of that Latin offshoot.
> >
> >>It most certainly did. Plenty of post-10th century East Slavic and
> >>Magyar loan-words are present in Romanian.
> >
> >Huh? So what's wrong with loan words?
>
> Nothing, I did not say that something is good or  wrong. However, mea
> culpa, I read your "to snuff out" more like "to affect," instead of
> "to extinguish."
>
> >AFAIK Moldavia and Wallachia gained semi-independence
> >in 1829, united in 1859 (as Romania),
>
> Actually, Moldavia and Wallachia united as "United Principalities,"
> not Romania.
>
> > So it looks like Romanian became *official* to English speakers in 1859.
>
> I think you mean "Romania," the country's name, not the ethnicon
> Romanian.
>
> >This is uninformed speculation since I have yet to see any English period
> >books that refer to the area. Perhaps you've seen such period books?
>
> Wasn't this about how Romanians always called themselves? I doubt 18th
> century English books are of any relevance as much time as there are
> plenty of earlier writings which attested they used the ethnicon
> Romanian.
>
> >>You have mentioned several times Ceausescu-era literature. I thought
> >>you read in that literature the claim  that the Saxons called
> >>themselves Romanians.
> >
> >Not really, but didn't Ceaucescu's Romanian nation-state insist on
> >calling all these people Romanian with a stealthy policy to diminish
> >and eventually destroy *non-Romanian* cultures and languages
>
> What that has to do with how the Saxons called themselves? There was a
> big difference between the officially preached policy and the one
> actually practiced; published literature didn't reflect the  practiced
> policy. Saxons were considered members of the German "national
> minority," but also Romanian citizens, and the preservation of their
> national-cultural identity was guaranteed by the Romanian state.
>
> Regards,
>
> Liviu Iordache
>
> =======================================================
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> E-mail :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 42 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 13:01:56 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> On Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:12:09 +0000  Eva Durant wrote:
>
> > The Hungarian you mention below, won't be happy with your descrip-
> > tion, you subscribe the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
> > The idea, that people actually "choose" to be poor is ridiculous,
> > and is made by people who isolated from poor people.
>
> In Canada the poverty line for rural areas is around $17,000. I know at
> least one eccentric person who lives a meaningful, happy life with
> less income than this. He may have some extra income, what the taxman does
> not know, but in the statistics he is poor, in real life he is not. In
> rural communities bartering is a common practic, which is not illegal, and
> its benefit does not shows up in the income statements.
>
> > I think in America the poor is treated with more contempt
> > and even hatred, than in Europe. In Europe (minus UK)
> > a larger percent of
> > the profits (in principle) is put into welfare and
> > education - but it is still far from enough, and in
> > the last decade, things are getting worse.
>
> I would like to see some evidence of this.
>
> > Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
> > It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
> > good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
> > What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
> > all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
> > than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
> > goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
> > sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
> > but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
> > the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.
>
> I would love to see a better system. I consider it obscene that CEO's,
> baseball and movie stars pocket millions dollars, while millions of people
> can not feed their kids. Unfortunately I don't know anybody who can propose
> and implement a viable alternative. So until we find the Messiah who can
> change the system, I think we should do what we can to embarrass our
> politicians to do what they can to reduce poverty.
>
> Barna Bozoki
>
> =======================================================
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> E-mail :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: poverty ( 27 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 13:18:52 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> On  7 Nov 1996 01:51:14 -0600  Andras Kornai wrote:
>
> > Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
> > blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
> > if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but perhaps
> > switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the weather
.
> > Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its problems
> > are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are caused
> > by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.
>
> I don't exactly understand what he is trying to say here, but if he
> implies that reduced poverty will not improve society he is dead wrong.
> Poverty and social conditions can be improved and the result immediately
> observable.  Social conditions are not uncontrollable like the weather.
>
> I read a sociological study about the conditions in the poorest part of
> Hungary the "Nyirseg" by Antal Ve1gh [Erdo3ha1ton, Nyi1ren, 1972], in
> this he  was contrasting two communities [Vaja and Pene1szlak]. He shows
> that an imaginative town council can do a lot to improve local conditions.
> In Vaja the population was better educated, happier, even though the basic
> economic constraint applied to both communities.
>
> I don't think we need to accept condition as they are. Where would the
> world be if we would all accept thing as they are? Even DOS will not
> rule forever. Long live Unix!
>
> Barna Bozoki
>
> =======================================================
> Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
> E-mail :  [Canada]
> Temakor: The Value of the Internet Discussion ( 28 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 13:18:58 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:59:51 -0500 Joe Szalai wrote in response to my
> comment about my previous attempts to start a discussion about poverty:
>
> > What do you mean by "failed"?  I don't recall your posts, but do you mean
> > that you couldn't convince people of your point of view?  In a discussion n
o
> > one fails except, perhaps, those who don't express themselves.
>
> I was referring to my post on the Hungarian language FORUM quoting a well
> known ex-communist writer's writing about poverty. I was disappointed that
> the discussion turned into a bashing of the writers character, rather than
> a discussion of the message.
>
> But aside from this specific case, I don't agree that there can be no
> failure in a discussion. If one writes with a purpose and the desired
> result is not achieved the writing is a failure.
>
> Earlier this year I wrote about the World Federation of Hungarians. My
> purpose was to provide input to the reorganization of the Canadian Council
> of this organization. No one responded. So I failed to convince the
> readers, that it is our interest to care about this organization.
>
> Last year I tried to solicit help to put Hungarian books on a CD and on the
> Internet. A few people indicated that they would help, but very few did.
>
> I very much enjoy our discussion about poverty, but I have no
> illusions that we are helping a cause.
>
> Barna Bozoki
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Taxonomy ( 13 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 14:16:42 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 07:46 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Aniko wrote:
>
> >What does leave me in awe - is the amazing interest displayed by the younger
> >generation today within Hungary regarding the 56 issue.  There are countless
> >questions and even opinions.  It became clear to me that they too are
> >confused and are looking for a consensus of the definition
>
>         I'm very glad to hear that. Perhaps things are changing in this
> respect and the young people will understand what a momentous event it was
> in world history: the first armed uprising of longer duration against a
> totalitarian regime.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 12 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 14:16:51 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> >Wow!  Strike me dead!  It sounds soooo utopian.  Is it any wonder Eva Balogh
> >likes the United States?  We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
> >the GST.  We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.  The
> >unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxes
> >(one way or an other).  I wannabe an American!
>
>         It still doesn't change the basic fact: even if you don't drive,
> don't smoke, don't drink, you can still vote. That's the bottom line.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: War Criminals ( 23 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 14:16:59 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 07:22 PM 11/6/96 -0800, Gabor Farkas wrote:
>
> >In the book Cry Hungary (that was mentioned recently on this list) there is
> >a series of photographs, showing the summary execution of a group of
> >AVO-members by freedom fighters. Those executed were  apparently unarmed,
> >they  look very young, probably conscripts. Does anybody know what happened
> >there, how frequent was this kind of "justice" and what happened to those
> >who acted as judges and executioners?
>
>         Unfortunately those pictures--a whole series of them in every phase
> of the summary executions--were splashed all over every magazine and
> publication in those days and reappeared since in every commemorative
> volume. It was the *only* serious atrocity connected with the revolution and
> even that only after the AVO killed hundreds in front of the parliament,
> mostly women, unarmed who went there to ask the authorities to stop the
> fighting. There were no journalists to take pictures there, but if they had
> been, I am sure, we would have had lurid pictures of this particular
> incident as well. The attack on the communist party headquarters was a
> protracted one and obviously the few foreign journalists on hand had time to
> gather there to record the events. Thus, we have hundreds of photographs of
> this particular atrocity but none of the others.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes ( 10 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 14:17:04 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> One of the best things about the movie of "Elmer Gantry" was Shirley Jones
> playing a prostitute.  That might not seem like a big deal now, but she
> was the all-American girl when she was discovered in the mid-50s and put
> in films like "Carousel" and "Oklahoma."  Then, just five years later, she
> played a prostitute, which took a lot of courage.  I believe she even won
> an Oscar for it.  There's a lesson for all of us: break out of society's
> image of you, and you too might win an Oscar--or then again, you might
> lose all your teeth, but life is meant to be lived.
>
> Burian
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 33 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 14:17:09 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 11:17 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> >I may be wrong here but wasn't it Eva Balogh who was chortling about Andras
> >Kornai, and other young Hungarians, learning the truth about communism from
> >their dads.  It seems that the situation was less romantic when dad talked
> >about things that Eva Balogh didn't agree with.
>
>         Eva Balogh never said anything that stupid, dear Joe. Andras Kornai
> knows Hungarian history quite well and he didn't learn it from his dad.
>
> ><snip>
> >>        Put it that way. Seventy-five percent of Hungary's export comes fro
m
> >>the multinationals. This is what makes Hungary better off than it would be
> >>otherwise. Thanks to foreign investments--highest in the region--Hungary ha
s
> >>a good chance of recovering from the slump. So, please, don't bring up all
> >>that nationalistic crap about selling out and all that. Foreign companies
> >>are doing a lot of good in Hungary.
> >
> >I may be wrong again but I think that Eva Balogh left something out of her
> >last sentance.  I think she meant to say, "Foreign companies are doing a lot
> >of good, lining their own pockets, in Hungary."  I mean, if they weren't
> >lining their own pockets they'd leave, no?  I don't think there's such a
> >thing as "mercy capitalism".
>
>         God, you are hopeless. Sure, the multinationals didn't go to Hungary
> to do charity work or lose money. Sure, they want to make money and
> eventually they will even make profit. (For a number of years they will not
> because of the heavy investments needed originally to modernize or establish
> plants.) But, while they are making profit for themselves they are also
> paying taxes, they are employing thousands of workers whom they pay quite
> well, and bring hard currency into the country.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 14 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 14:31:08 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> >You know, that's such an easy sentence to write, and yes, I can hear Eva
> >Balogh thinking that I'm having another one of my episodic Rapid Eye
> >Movement Socialist Dreams.  But so what!  Unfortunately, Hungarians have no
> >choice but to put their hopes into yet another venture.  If the free market
> >system doesn't pan out, for the simultaneous (yes, simultaneous!) benefit of
> >all, then what?  Another venture?
>
>         Quite right, Joe. "Hungarians have no choice but to put their hopes
> into yet another venture." If it doesn't pan out it is not because it is
> unworkable but because the joint effort of left and right will torpedo it.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Social Concerns ( 170 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Nov  7 15:12:03 EST 1996 HUNGARY #841
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> In article >, Eva Durant
> > writes:
>
> >The Hungarian you mention below, won't be happy with your descrip-
> >tion, you subscribe the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
> >The idea, that people actually "choose" to be poor is ridiculous,
> >and is made by people who isolated from poor people.
>
> People make poor choices about education, child birth, criminal activity,
> etc. which heavily influence their economic outcomes in life. Denying this
> fact is a tenet of dogmatic faith with those itching, for whatever
> ideological reasons, to embrace poor people as a class or group and
> equally unwilling to grant them individual humanity. I've seen poor people
> rise to the challenge of their poverty with grace, dignity, humor and
> courage. I've also seen others allow it to harden and embitter them. There
> is no stereotypical reaction to poverty, perhaps beyond some vague common
> longing for better material circumstances.
>
> >Getting the only available, low pay and usually dehumanisisng
> >job in 99%+ of the cases cannot lift you out of poverty.
> >
> >People probably do more creative work if they try to lead
> >a healthy life and study instead - usually the benefits
> >are not adequate for that. If  parents didn't get
> >anywhere in their lifetime, there will be no ambition
> >and self respect to to pass on. So will you condemn
> >such a family as the "undeserving"?
>
> One of the banes of our public life are middle- and upper-income parents
> who don't lift a finger to imbue their children with ambition,
> self-respect and a sense of moral obligation. These problems cut across
> class boundaries.
>
> >
> >There is very little unskilled physical work necessary
> >to manufacture all the necessities of the modern society.
> >Industrial/agricultural employees number around 20% of
> >all employees now.  So without education for work and
> >for enjoyment/culture, there will be no end to poverty
> >anywhere. Capitalism is not able to supply the
> >material conditions for this, even if it wanted to.
>
> Which makes its triumphalist claims of economic prosperity and free-market
> rationalism as specious and downright dishonest as those of
> Marxism-Leninism. Which means its inevitable failures will lead capitalist
> societies back to the hard-won and now-forgotten truth that too much of
> anything isn't good for you. Which doesn't mean your lot will ever get a
> shot at running things again.
> >
> >
> >> I also think that there is a difference between the way the Americans
> and
> >> Hungarians (Europeans?) treat the poor. The rich here seem to treat the
> >> poor with more respect. I recall a discussion with an old Hungarian
> >> immigrant in '57. He was as poor as the church mouse, but told me very
> >> proudly: I don't have to kiss the hand of anybody here.
>
> You have proven in the past that your knowledge of American society,
> culture and history is minimal in the extreme. The plain truth is that you
> don't have the first idea how Americans treat the poor.
>
> >>
> >
> >I think in America the poor is treated with more contempt
> >and even hatred, than in Europe. In Europe (minus UK)
> > a larger percent of
> >the profits (in principle) is put into welfare and
> >education - but it is still far from enough, and in
> >the last decade, things are getting worse.
>
> Yadda, yadda, yadda. What most Americans see as "the poor" is a very
> visible black underclass. The many millions of other Americans -- white,
> black, Hispanic, etc. -- whose income levels qualify them as poor are an
> invisible working class whose interests are rarely represented in
> Washington or their state capitals. These people are, in the main, very
> religious, very hard-working, very decent people. They fall into three
> distinct categories -- single mothers, children and the elderly. None of
> the public contempt you speak of, most of it generated by Republican
> politicians, has been aimed at either children or the elderly. Single
> mothers -- particularly single mothers who are black and living in an
> urban ghetto -- are the big target of these hate-mongers, who like to
> paint them as the last word in irresponsibility abetted by government
> largess. There's enough truth in the claim to obscure a much larger truth
> that isn't as comforting to Republican bigots -- the overwhelming majority
> of single mothers are white, divorced and impoverished by this change in
> marital status. All of this goes to show that the question of poverty in
> the U.S. is substantially more complex than you're ever likely to admit or
> even understand.
> >
> >>
> >> I read some convincing arguments, that the Western monetary system is
> about
> >> to collapse, because the national debt can not be contained. [i.e. J.
> S.
> >> Jaikaram: Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing, 1992]. These theories were
> >> developed, when the inflation was high in America. But now the
> inflation is
> >> under control, the national debt is going down, the stock market is
> >> booming, the imminent death of capitalism is less threatening.
>
> With all due apologies for those of our regular cast of characters who are
> professional economists and those who think they are,  they don't call it
> the dismal science for nothing. And even if economists were able to more
> accurately predict what was going to happen to the economy, I doubt it
> would be of any benefit to you because your strong ideological commitments
> make it almost impossible for you to accept any data or analysis of data
> which don't conform to your expectations.
>
> >>
> >
> >Inflation figures, national debt, stock market figures don't
> >change the poverty figures, or even the tendency of more and more
> >people getting  into the "poor" pool.   Capitalism is not able
> >to deliver the goods, only the figures...
>
> Capitalism is able to deliver the goods aplenty. Tha
+ - Re: The Value of the Internet Discussion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Charles Mikecz
Vamossy > writes:

>Subject:       Re: The Value of the Internet Discussion
>From:  Charles Mikecz Vamossy >
>Date:  Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:25:09 -0800
>
>At 06:04 PM 11/8/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>        At last we all agree: Eva Durant, Charles Vamossy and me. (Well,
>>Charles and I see eye to eye more often than not.) The exchanges on the
>>Internet are helpful. I find that my mind gets a little sharper in the
>>process of immediate answers to very complicated writings. Or, in the
back
>>and forth one can define one's ideas a bit better. By some of the
questions
>>my curiosity is aroused and I take the trouble to look up this or that.
>>There are people out there whose expertise are very different from mine
and
>>therefore I can learn from them. So, I find the whole process very
>educational.
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>>
>>
>
>I am basking in the warm glow of this rare three-way experience :))
>
>Charlie Vamossy
>
>

It's a beautiful thing, isn't it?
Sam Stowe, who also agrees with Charlie and the two Evas

"Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
-- Bob Dole's last words
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>If it was not joke than I congratulate. You set a new record, this was
your
>biggest 'marhasag' (~ BS in English)  up to date. Why do I think so?

That you even pretend to think will come as a shock to most members of
this list. Thanks for teaching me "marhasag", though. I need this kind of
technical vocabulary if I ever hope to adequately discuss in Hungarian
what passes for electro-chemical activity within the echoing, empty
confines of your skull.

>
>>How about sentencing them to serve in godawful places like Rwanda and
>>Kurdistan with international relief agencies if they're found guilty? It
>>might do much to remind them of the cost of inhumanity and actually
induce
>>a sense of guilt and shame in them for what they did as younger men.
>>Sam Stowe


>First, you might think those people in Rwanda and Kurdistan are
uncivilized,
>unable to run their country, but still that is their land, home. You have
>no right to throw your 'garbage' there. I.e those developing countries
are
>not the junk-yard of the 'western civilization'. Don't you think they
have
>enough problem without your monsters?

First of all, I doubt a wet-wipe like you gives two hoots in hell about
Rwanda and Kurdistan. Second of all, an eighty year-old convicted war
criminal isn't likely to reprise John Dillinger's exploits in Karachi.
Third of all, it's not throwing "garbage" away. That's the kind of
thinking which led to the crimes these men are accused of in the first
place. I fail to see how sentencing them to feed and care for orphans or
serve as nurses in a Third World hospital is ravaging those countries. The
idea came to me as a result of the well-known Leopold and Loeb murders in
Chicago in the 1930s. One of them died in prison, the other was released
as an old man and spent the rest of his life as a medical missionary nurse
in Puerto Rico working with poor people.

>Second why do you think that those war-criminals would be reminded 'the
cost
>of inhumanity' and a 'sense of guilt' would be induced. Some of them saw
more
>horror than you can imagine (they was who caused them). Most probable
they
>would end up as advisors for the local warlords. That would be great
service
>to the humanity.

Fourth, people change. They do not remain static their entire adult lives
unless they are lackwits such as you. Seeing horror doesn't somehow
corrupt you eternally. I have talked first-hand with a survivor of
Auschwitz, a survivor of the Bataan Death March and numerous war veterans
who saw action at places like the Normandy beaches, the Huertgen Forest,
Chosin Reservoir and Khe Sanh. I've also talked first-hand with a former
Vietnamese non-commissioned officer who survived five years in a
re-education camp after 1975 and a Hmong man whose entire family died
during the war. These people survived the worst that humanity can dish out
and they are not dehumanized by it, although in many cases they still
suffer from what they witnessed years later. Hanging an 80 year-old war
criminal is something a Nazi would do. Letting him go entirely is
something a neo-Nazi would advocate. I'd like to see justice served and
spite both Hitler and his legacy.
Sam Stowe

>
>J.Zs
>
>P.S:
>>P.S. -- How's that big, fat chip on your shoulder doing?
>
>I have never made such personal attack against you. Don't you think you
>should moderate yourself?

Here you overreach yourself and begin to lie like a cheap rug. Show some
moderation and moderation will be shown you. Until you do, you're still a
two-bit punk who can't think for himself.



"You can sum up the entire history of the
Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
-- Joe Queenan
+ - Re: The nasty Orban Re: HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:24 PM 11/10/96 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote:
>>At 01:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>>
>> The Fidesz which is supposed to be right of center is
>> becoming more and more nationalistic and lately Viktor Orban, its party
>> chief, said some very, very nasty things about the liberals. Very nasty.
>
>Eva, would you be so kind to give the details: what do you mean by
>FIDESz "becoming more and more nationalistic", and especially:  what
>vere the "very, very nasty things" Orban Viktor said about the
>liberals?
>
>I am asking only whether by chance you are referring to his speech he
>gave at the 23 October meeting of the "Batthyany Alapitvany"
>(Batthyany Foundation). I happened to be there, and as far as I can
>remember he did not speak about "the liberals". However, he had some
>critical words about the ruling parties (SzDSz and MSzP). BTW Orban's
>speech -- which I found very interesting -- received standing ovation
>from the audience which consisted mostly of respectable scientists,
>university professors, etc. (no skinheads were present).

        Well, of course, I wasn't there, but I read about the event in
several newspapers. They all indicated that Orban said that what keeps the
two governing parties together is the ideology which suppressed the
revolution. I would call this rather nasty considering that the founding
"fathers" of the SZDSZ were certainly not in any way involved in the
governing of the country since 1956. On the contrary, they were the very few
people in Hungary who were at all involved with some dissident activity. So,
don't you think that this was pretty nasty?

        Here is the Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany's own summary of this piece
of news:

>Az SZDSZ politikusait es a part parlamenti frakciojat felhaboritotta
>Orban Viktornak az 1956-os forradalomrol megemlekezo het vegi
>beszede. A Fidesz elnoke a Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany megemlekezesen
>egyebek mellett azt mondta: a mostani koaliciot a kadari hatalomnak a
>megtorlasok ideje alatt mutatott ideologiaja kapcsolja egybe. Peto Ivan
>partelnok szerint ez a nyilatkozat "aljas es gyalazatos, erthetetlen
>es egyben indokolhatatlan... a beszed szinvonala a magyar politikai
>kozeletben eddig soha nem latott melyseget surolt". Mecs Imre
>elmondta, ot halalra iteltek 1956-ban, egy evig ult a siralomhazban.
>Ezert kikeri maganak, hogy Orban vagy barki mas igy nyilatkozzon.
>Szerinte ez nem torzitas, hanem felhaborito, keptelen hazugsag. Peto
>Ivan tajekoztatasa szerint az SZDSZ parlamenti kepviseloi ujra
>kitoltottek a vagyonnyilatkozatot, s ezen a heten hozzaferhetove
>teszik az 1994-es, illetve, akinek van, az 1990-es bevallasat. Peto a
>jovo heten a tobbi parlamenti partot is csatlakozasra hivja fel az
>akciohoz. Lapinformaciok szerint az SZDSZ frakciojaban nagy
>felhaborodast keltett, hogy Horn Gyula kormanyfo minden elozetes
>egyeztetes nelkul hozta nyilvanossagra a "tiszta kezek bizottsaga"
>felallitasanak tervet. Horn megemlitette, kiket latna alkalmasnak
>mas partok tagjai kozul a bizottsagban. Allitolag felmerult, hogy
>az SZDSZ-nek ezek utan joga lenne az MSZP-bol Horn Gyulat delegalni a
>bizottsagba (Nepszabadsag: Peto... 1.o., Magyar Nemzet: Kritizaljak...
>5.o.).

        I actually had written the English-language summary before I
rechecked my source. I was pretty close, wasn't I?

        Best regards to you, too:

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> People make poor choices about education, child birth, criminal activity,
> etc. which heavily influence their economic outcomes in life. Denying this
> fact is a tenet of dogmatic faith with those itching, for whatever
> ideological reasons, to embrace poor people as a class or group and
> equally unwilling to grant them individual humanity. I've seen poor people
> rise to the challenge of their poverty with grace, dignity, humor and
> courage. I've also seen others allow it to harden and embitter them. There
> is no stereotypical reaction to poverty, perhaps beyond some vague common
> longing for better material circumstances.
>

In Hungary unemployed people outnumber the available jobs especially
in some regions.  It's not their choice. Whether you like it or not,
there is an objective reality of society, and the interest of large
groups of people are the same, they want a decent standard of living,
and this is opposed to the interest of another group of people, who
are doing well from the situation as it is.  This doesn't mean that
we are not all unique as individuals.  But choice is related to power, and
that is a major failing of the system.
What you are saying is, that it is only upto the individual to be
clever/diligent etc. to overcome poverty. You are blaming the poor
for being poor. Obviously if they not clever and diligent (deserving)
than they should stay poor...?  The weak should perish and deserve
their lot?    You are where you are because you happen to be a
better (more clever, more diligent, etc, etc) human being?
Sorry, I have no rational reason to agree with you.
Differences between the character and intelligence of people is not
as great as the difference between their material conditions and
their economic power.


> One of the banes of our public life are middle- and upper-income parents
> who don't lift a finger to imbue their children with ambition,
> self-respect and a sense of moral obligation. These problems cut across
> class boundaries.
>

You telling me, that in the prisons of the US the percentage of
convicted people reflects the income patterns? This is news to me.

However, I agree, that people are not allowed to spend enough time
with their family to nurture a healthy emotional upbringing of
children, unnecessarily long working hours persist for middle-income
families (too).



> Which makes its triumphalist claims of economic prosperity and free-market
> rationalism as specious and downright dishonest as those of
> Marxism-Leninism. Which means its inevitable failures will lead capitalist
> societies back to the hard-won and now-forgotten truth that too much of
> anything isn't good for you. Which doesn't mean your lot will ever get a
> shot at running things again.
> >
> >

My lot - whatever that is - didn't have a chance to run anything yet.
Too much technology and science is only bad for you if it is not used
in a democratically controlled - yes even planned - manner.




> >> I also think that there is a difference between the way the Americans
> and
> >> Hungarians (Europeans?) treat the poor. The rich here seem to treat the
> >> poor with more respect. I recall a discussion with an old Hungarian
> >> immigrant in '57. He was as poor as the church mouse, but told me very
> >> proudly: I don't have to kiss the hand of anybody here.
>
> You have proven in the past that your knowledge of American society,
> culture and history is minimal in the extreme. The plain truth is that you
> don't have the first idea how Americans treat the poor.
>

You actually abusing someone else, I haven't written the above.
However, I have seen good documentaries on US poverty made my the
BBC, that is only the hothouse of leftes in the eyes of Thatcher. I
wonder, how many are able to watch such indepth research into poverty in
the US.  Pockets of third world.

. All of this goes to show that the question of poverty in
> the U.S. is substantially more complex than you're ever likely to admit or
> even understand.
> >

However it exists, and your beloved system is powerless in the
fight against it.


> Capitalism is able to deliver the goods aplenty. That the radical version
> of it unrestrained by government regulation and occasional, judicious
> intervention by government can do so in a socially rational and morally
> just manner is the real question. Marxism-Leninism is not the answer.
>

Yes there are goods aplenty. But sharing them is somewhat unjust,
and only government control - in the aim of prolonging the system -
managed to postpone the sharper social tensions. This is not an
affordable option anymore, or present powers to be are just too
stupid to see further into the future.


> Poverty in any truly democratic system will be unhappily and reluctantly
> accepted because experience has demonstrated that eradicating it
> completely invariably leads to unacceptable levels of totalitarian
> government control which extend far beyond the narrow economic goal of
> putting poor folks to work. The trick is to minimize poverty as much as
> possible without infringing on the rights of others to an unacceptable
> degree. The incremental and difficult nature of effecting such a delicate
> balance and maintaining it is not for the faint of heart or those whose
> political philosophy is rooted in a sense of grievance and vengeance.
>

Well, if you look back on correspondence, you'll find, that I am not
the emotional one.   But I find puzzling, how you can admit that the
richest country on Earth with per capita income of over $20 000
cannot eradicate poverty. What does the same system offer to poor
countries?
I think your statement, that poverty can be only eliminated by a
totalitarian state unsubstentiated. Some welfare states, such as
Sweden or Norway had a pretty good go at it and they are at least as
democratic as the US, even if they are not all carrying guns.
However one has oil riches, the other one is trying  to take back
earlier benefits.  So the economic system is the culprit in keeping
poverty.



> Only someone doggedly determined not to learn the lessons of the 20th
> Century would argue that capitalism has not markedly improved the lives of
> the poor in those countries which have checked its most rapacious and
> socially unjust excesses through careful governmental intervention and
> regulation. Being poor in London's East End in 1996 may not be easy or
> enjoyable. It does not, however, inflict the kind of frightening physical
> misery which Dickens, Mayhew and others found in their investigations in
> the last century.

Well, perhaps you don't know what you talking about. I don't think
a homeless person, or the cases of reoccuring TB underline what you
say, and than I haven't mentioned, the psychological humiliation and
deprivation of people who know, that during a lifetime of hard work,
they cannot make as much as some part-time directors of companies in
a bad week.


> It doesn't inflict the kind of physical misery and
> oppression which unrestrained capitalism inflicts on many Third World
> countries. It doesn't inflict the kind of moral hypocrisy, intellectual
> dishonesty, political oppression and shabby living conditions which
> Communism inflicted on millions of Europeans.
> Sam Stowe

So who wants that Communism? You should start to read my mail more
carefully, or just don't bother to respond.


>

+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>Oh dear, Liviu, this is very disappointing.

Here you go again! Keep touching my sensitive peripheral nerves
situated in the region of Gluteus maximus muscle! I'm so disappointed
you keep aiming so low ;-)

>Why the exaggeration and
>gratuitous abuse? The five lines of *plenty of bandwidth* explaining
>my position was necessary to stop your anti-Hungarian stuff, but now
>you've switched to getting personal, instead.

Dear George, nothing pissed me off more than your moronic charges of
anti-this and anti-that. There is nothing anti-Hungarian in my saying
that I'm not interested in your personal life. Even if I got personal,
which I did not, at least not yet, that still doesn't mean I'm getting
anti-Hungarian.

I did not like your bringing up front the so often used anti-Romanian
cliches, while pretending that your questions are stirred by pure
ignorance, but I stuck to the facts and pointed to the reasoning flaws
underlying your so many unsupported assumptions and ridiculous
generalizations. Belive it or not, there is nothing anti-Hungarian in
slapping *you* over the wrist. As you have never represented the
Hungarian nation, the same way, and I hope this gets through your
apparently thick skull, Ceausescu's official propaganda has never
represented the Romanians.

>Can you blame me when all the evidence from my own experience of
>extended stays in at least half a dozen other countries makes me raise
>an eyebrow at your *no Romanian dialects* claim.

I'm not blaming you for anything, I just say that a layman personal
and subjective experience is irrelevant for the type of conclusions
you are trying to forge. You should not rise an eyebrow, you should do
what any other reasonable person would do: open a book. If you are
sincerely interested in the subject, I recommend Andre Du Nay's "The
Early History of the Rumanian Language" [Forum Linguisticum, Jupiter
Press, Lake Bluff, Illinois, 1977]. It is a brilliant approach, and,
although written from the Hungarian perspective, more than reasonable
in its objectivity.

>>Darn, your knowledge of Romanian historical, political, and cultural
>>issues is thin, to say the least,
>
>Gosh, sorry Liviu, It's not really my fault, so please don't blame
>me for my ignorance about Romania!

Excuse me George, but if you are aware of your ignorance how can you
afford statements like this: "I can understand the chagrin of
Romanians who claim that Romania, the Romanian people and the Romanian
language has existed for for a millenium, or more, without being
recognised or appreciated, as simply international ignorance, and thus
irrelevant?"

>You probably won't be surprised to hear that most
>Hungarians I know or met hardly have a good word to say about Romanians
>generally. I guess that such sentiments are mutual.

Most Hungarians I know would say you couldn't be more wrong. Now, do
you understand why personal experience, yours or mine,  doesn't count
for too much?

>This is not meant to be provocative or rude, it's just the way things have
>been presented to me, like it or not.

OK! And I asked if you ever suspected nationalistic bias in the way
these things have been presented to you. Instead of giving a straight
answer, you preferred to accuse me of anti-Hungarian stuff. And, if
I'm not wrong, this is not the first time, correct?

>I was hoping that our little exchange might have broken a little ice on
>that score, but, unfortunately, you don't seem interested
>(do you always spit on an extended hand?).

Do you always give the finger when you extend your hand?

>Pretending to understand? Don't be silly, Liviu. I'm been up front
>about *not knowing* and haven't claimed any understanding,

Silly me, how could I have known your attention span is so limited?
See above for your claim of "understanding."

>Look chum, I don't know what's eating you, but I've only offered
>anything openly for you to correct with your superior knowledge
>of Romanian matters (which, sans the smartass personal abuse, I'm
>grateful for, thanks) but this nonsense is totally unnecessary.

Waitaminute,  fruity ass! Is it just me, or the international citizen
of the world is losing his cool?

>You seem determined to live up to the typically derogatory
>comments I've heard about Romanians. What a shame!

Nuff said, self-proclaimed champion of the free-of-prejudice-people!
This is about me not about Romanians. I might not think too highly of
you right now, but it would be completely unfair to extrapolate from
you to Hungarians, Britons, or other citizens of the world. And I'll
continue to avoid  paying attention  to "typically derogatory
comments" about anything and anybody.

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: The Ottoman Empire (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Sometimes I peak int the soc.culture.magyar list and I noticed a very
>interesting discussion going on.  Everybody on this list who had his/her
>schooling in Hungary learned about the Turks, the Turkish occupation,
>etc. a great deal.  It was never called "Ottoman".  It was always called
>Turkish.  I now read that the Turks were the lowest ethnic group in the
>Ottoman Empire.  Not even the language of this empire was Turkish but
>Armenian with foreign contacts and Arabic-Persian within.  (Read details
>on the above-mentioned list).
>
>There are a lot of historians on this lists.  Have you ever heard about
>this?
>
>Agnes

The Hungarian term for Ottoman is "ozma'n", and it was  indeed used to
refer to the Turks/Turkey of the Ottoman Empire (usually as
ozma'n-to"ro"k). Many non-Turkish people served the Ottoman state, even in
the highest positions, became Moslems, and, in effect, Turks. As for the
language: Anatolian Turkish has borrowed heavily from Arabic vocabulary,
somewhat less heavily from Farsi (Persian); nevertheless, the language was
always basically Turkish. The language of Islaam (of the Quran) was of
course Arabic; and Persian poetry/literature was important in the Empire.
Armenian had only regional importance in the East. To say that the Turks
were the lowest ethnic group in the Empire is patently false; to say that
the lowest (pooerst peasant) social group were - in many regions - Turks
has some truth to it.

Louis Elteto
+ - Re: Klara Feher (1923 - 1996) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hope Professor Balogh is not wasting her time teaching you young fellows
the good historical methodology: it is not the message that counts but who
is saying it and how. You should always check first what your wise masters
say about the person you are quoting, and don't use plain effective
language. Use jargon what nobody but your peers can understand. I already
know this, but I can afford to ignore it now, I am not looking for a
promotion or a better job.

A few years ago I attended a conference in Europe where great Hungarian
academics met, and some invited Hungarian writers were also in attendance.
The people were exchanging their books and magazine articles like business
cards. We were walking toward the dining room after a stimulating afternoon
seminar and I asked a noted author who was beside me: And what is Szilvasi
writing these days? You should have seen his face? He looked around in
panic to see if somebody heard that he is in a conversation about Szilvasi.
He told me in a hushed voice: to bring up Szilvasi's name is like farthing
at a dinner table.

I used to have a habit of buying books from the stands on the streets of
Budapest. I bought what was popular, what most people bought and not what
was reviewed and approved by the snobs. This is how I got my Klara Feher
books, and my Szilvasi books. I am not ashamed to say that I enjoyed them.
Unfortunately this method does not work any more. Today the stands are
full with translated American trash. One of the great achievement of the
market economy.

I dismissed Konrad and Esterhazy from my reading list long before the
anti-establishment media started to attack them for their liberal views,
simply because I could not figure out what they were writing about. This
may sound strange to English only readers of the list, but Konrad is a lot
more readable in English than in Hungarian.

Also I am not ashamed to confess, that I don't remember a thing from the
"Szabad Nep" in the 50's. Which is not surprising, because I did not read
it. I managed quite well without it. When during the "Szabad Nep
half-hour"  before classes, the commissar asked: What did you like comrade
Bozoki in today paper? I said that I loved the story about imperialists
exploiting the poor. It worked every time. I would have never guessed that
some day a Mr Bozoki actually will be interested in stories about social
injustices.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Klara Feher (1923 -1996) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:

>>Especially if compared with some recent award winners like
>>Estrerhazy and Petri.
>
>        Well, first of all, let's at least spell a great contemporary
>writer's historical name right: Pe'ter Esterha'zy. I assume almost everybody
>knows his family name. One hears the name and one immediately thinks of
>Hayden! Yes, Peter Esterhazy belongs to that family but the Hungarian right
>doesn't appreciate the ring of his name. They hate him. But he is a great
>Hungarian writer and I am hoping that someone (Gabor Fencsik?) will give us
>a good portrait of him. I must admit that I don't know Gyorgy Petri's poetry
>and therefore I have no way of passing judgment on his award.

Is this the Hayden who was married to Jane the red Fonda, currently Mrs Turner?
What is the connection to the Eszterhazy's?

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: Misc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>
No rocks, Jeliko - it is very interesting and very true.  I am a retired
secretary, little more than 2 years out of the workforce.  If I needed a
job today, I would have to take courses again, although I worked on
computers from the very beginning, for about 15 years.  Also, as you
said, my profession went with the dodo bird, because everybody has
computers and types their own correspondence, memos go e-mail, and there
is the omnipresent voice mail.

Agnes

>        Back for the weekend, before departing on Sunday. I had a friend
>unload some of the messages while I was gone, but read only a few
although,
>I will try to comment on some of them later in Dec.
>
>For the time being, I just would like to add a Ft worth of opinions to
some
>of the poverty, economic, etc., discussions.
>
>It looks like that a lot folks do not comprehend the changes in the work
>place and what is needed either in Hungary or for that matter anywhere
else,
>to cope with these changes.
>So lets start first with a few facts:
>
>1) In the early 1900s 85% of the Us work force was in agriculture, today
>that percentage is reduced to 3% of the workforce. In 1950, 73% of US
>emplyees worked in production or manufacturing. Now less than 15% do.
The US
>Department of Labor estimates that by the year 2000, at least 44% of all
>workers will be in data services. Currently 66% of US emplyees work in
the
>services sector, where knowledge is the most imprtant product. It is
also
>estimated that by 2000 only one sixth to one eighth of the workforce
will be
>in manufacturing or moving goods.
>
>2) In the US in 1991, the first time ever, companies spent more money on
>computing and communications gear than the combined funds spent on
>industrial, mining,farm and construction equipment.
>
>3) Every year more and more people will be self-employed. Many will work
>temporary or part time, sometimes beacuse that is the way they want it,
>sometimes because that is all that is available. In the early XXI
century,
>less than half of the world's workforce will hold full time conventional
>jobs. Currently in the US less than one employee is with the same
employer
>for less than a year and two out of three less than five years.
>
>4) The first practical industrial robot was introduced in the 1960s. By
>1982, there were
>approximately 32,000 robots used in the US. Today there are more than
>20,000,000.
>Computer power is now 8000 times less expensive than it was 30 years
ago.
>
>5) During the 1980 decade a total of 230 companies (46%) disappeared
from
>the Fortune 500. And of the 100 largest companies existence in the US in
>1900 only 16 are in existence today.
>
>(Most of the above is from New Work Habits for a Radically Changing
World by
>Price Prichett.)
>
>So the major problem of everyone, whether individual worker or managment
is
>to "manage change" as early as possible, otherwise they are not going to
>survive. I have mentioned this once before, but in Columbus OH there was
the
>worlds largest Buggy whip factory in the early 1900s. It was a modern
>factory with good labor relations for the times. Naturally, it did not
>survive the change from buggies to automobiles. The reason for its
failure
>was not worker exploitation, not greedy management, not capitalism but
change.
>(I know that some folks would plead for government subsidy and price
support
>for the whips, maybe even government storage for strategic or worker
welfare
>purposes, etc, but
>that does not really work in any case. Just substitute sliderule for
>buggywhip for another analogy). Today, the change is much faster, we can
>perform at NUCON a stress analysis of a major piping system in days
versus
>months when we did it with handheld calculators. If I would insist, that
we
>use the old method, we would not be competitive with anyone who uses the
new
>methodology.
>
>Whenever, I visit Hungarian companies, there are an order of magnitude
more
>secretaries, two order of magnitude more drivers compared to that in the
US,
>where most secretaries have disappeared and are often "prestige" workers
as
>are the drivers. If you want coffee, go to the coffee machine and get
your
>coffee, do not use a "secretary" to fix it and get it for you. At the
same
>time, every employee's cost is a part of the product or service cost and
if
>your costs are not competitive with the marketplace the business will
fail.
>
>So to survive, one has to be aware whether a worker or a manager of what
>changes are coming and be able to cope with the coming change. If you
are
>waiting on Big Brother to tell you when and what change is coming you
are
>dreaming, generally, they are the least competent in managing change.
Just
>because I could hoe an acre better and faster than anyone, when
competing
>with a plough, my hoeing ability counts for nought. I could request that
>ploughs be outlawed, and if they were, I would eventually starve to
death.
>
>One way I can assure my survival is to learn everyday what can be done
>better and faster with less effort. The educational systems,
unfortunately,
>are also slow in comprehending the change and in most cases it is up to
>individual effort to assure that he or she maintains individual
contributing
>values to whatever endevour he or she is involved in.
>Falling behind and than complaining or solely looking for someone else
to
>blame, will not bring solution to the problem.
>
>As Jerry Garcia of The Grateful Dead said: "Somebody has to do
something,
>and it's incredibly pathetic that it has to be us."
>
>You have two days for the rocks flying, then I'm gone again.
>
>Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: (no subject given) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
 [United States]
>>Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 60
sor )
>
>>As a child of
>>divorced parents (and as a divorced and remarried father) I can
understand
>>how one may accept two separate families as one's own and somehow learn
to
>>exist with the anomaly.  As a native Hungarian citizen who never gave
up his
>>citizenship and as a refugee to the US who was grateful for the welcome
and
>>the chance to establish an existence at a time when Hungary considered
me a
>>fugitive and probably a criminal for taking part ion the revolution and
for
>>leaving the country illegally, I have learned to live with the fact
that I
>>am indeed a citizen of two countries.
>
>Charlie
>
>Your parents got divorced and you did too, meaning you only have one
legal
>wife (I presume :)), and two legal parents. So how do you compare that
to
>allegiance to two countries? It's like being a bigamist. I am also a
refugee
>and am a US citizen. At times while living in Budapest I have thought of
>applying for my Hungarian passport, but could see no advantage in it
except
>as property owner (no offense!) and maybe traveling to Cuba, etc. I was
also
>grateful to the US for allowing me and my parents a refuge. Believe me,
I do
>not agree with most of the politics here, but as a person who has
resided in
>many countries in Europe, east and west, and for 40 years here, I still
feel
>more *American* (OK maybe New York isn't *America*). Though who knows, I
>might change my mind when I return to Hugary for a visit!
>
>Anna


I don't think so, Anna....

Agnes
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:46:32 -0500, "Eva S. Balogh" at "Eva S. Balogh"
> claimed:

>At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>>Wow!  Strike me dead!  It sounds soooo utopian.  Is it any wonder Eva Balogh
>>likes the United States?  We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
>>the GST.  We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.  The
>>unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxes
>>(one way or an other).  I wannabe an American!

>        It still doesn't change the basic fact: even if you don't drive,
>don't smoke, don't drink, you can still vote. That's the bottom line.

>        Eva Balogh

Can't participate in smoke-filled back rooms or private clubs where the
real deals are made, wine/dine your "representative".  Sure you can
"vote", if you can get a ride to the booth since you don't drive, etc.

Then you can validate the king's hand picked puppets, thereby taking the
rap for "electing" such to office.

Not being too cynical, am I?
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 01:49:40 -0500, Janos Zsargo at Janos Zsargo
> claimed:

>J.Szalai wrote:

>>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
>>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
>>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that society
>>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
>>
>>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
>>criminals.
>>
>>What do you think?  Should there be limitations on hunting Nazi war
criminals?
>>
>>Joe Szalai

>Unfortunatelly I don't know the the English version of the expression
>'elevules'. As far as I know most country has the law that war crimes
>never 'evulnek el'. I think this is right, however I disagree with
>G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals
>in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is
>no difference between them criminals and judges.
...
>J.Zs

Expire?  Statute of limitations of time?

We do not by seeking out and punishing, even executing such criminals,
"treat them as they treated their victims".  What they did was
cold-blooded murder.  No trial, no appeal for justice, just summary
execution.

Allowing such vermin to merely run away and hide for 3, 7, 10, 20 or 50
years and then be allowed to openly resurface and rejoin society after
some lesser statute of time limitations has expired is unacceptable.
Those xx years in hiding do not compensate for the xx years of total
living they took from the people they murdered.

All society owes them is a fair trial, not a pardon because they have
been able to hide out and elude justice, living the good life until they
were "poor gray-haired old men, now in failing health".  Their victims
never had a hearing or trial, they never were given the chance to grow
old, decrepit and gray.  They never had (some/mor) children to care for
and who cared for them.

The blood of the innocent calls out without end--incessantly--until
justice is achieved.

How one can equate such justice with the perpetrators' crimes is beyond
my simpleton comprehension.
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 5 Nov 1996 10:27:08 GMT, "Denes BOGSANYI" at "Denes BOGSANYI"
> claimed:


>--
>Denes Bogsanyi ATRACI
>133 Osburn Drive
>Macgregor 2615
>Australia

>Joe Szalai > wrote in article
>...
>> The following article was in the Record today.
>> --------------------
>>
>> 2 more war crimes suspects identified
>>
>> Documents filed Thursday in Federal Court identify the elderly men as
>> Ladislaus Csizsik-Csatary, 82, and Vladimir Katriuk, 75.  Katriuk lives
>in
>> the Montreal area and Csizsik-Csatary recently moved to Toronto from
>Montreal.
>>    --- Csizsik-Csatary was a member of the Royal Hungarian Police and in
>> 1944 was involved in the internment and deportation to concentration
>camps
>> of thousands of local Jews in what is now the Slovak Republic.
>> Csizsik-Csatary's lawyer said in a letter filed in court that
>> Csizsik-Csatary recently moved to Toronto because his wife is ill and he
>> wants "the security of residing close to his family."
>>
>> The men are the seventh and eigth suspected Nazi war criminals Ottawa has
>> started court action against in the past two years, though none of the
>cases
>> has yet been completed.
>> Joe Szalai
>>
>I would be very interested to find out more details concerning Ladislaus
>Csiszik-Csatary and his connection with the Royal Hungarian Police. What
>rank and what position did he hold in the critical years? It is important
>that these men not be hounded just because they were sent to carry out an
>unpleasant job under threat of dire consequences if they did not. Based on
>his age he would probably have been a very junior rank and with very little
>power to influence the course of events.

It times like these a man has to stand up and be counted--and probably
killed!  "I was just following orders" should not--cannot--control.

In the US, goverment and military personnel are sworn to uphold the
law--the Constitution--not the orders from their superiors.  If they are
given orders to do anything repugnant to the law they are sworn to
resist, to protest, to defy, to refuse.

Obviously, this--though the law--is not followed.  Utopia I guess.

This all merely points to the dire need of alternative methods to
resolve disputes, either personal or international in scope.
+ - Communist Reparations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A few years ago I heard there was a Hungarian government program to
reimburse families for property seized illegally by the Communist
government after WWII. Is that program still valid or pending?

The contest doesn't always go to the strong or the race to the swift,
but that's how you should bet.
+ - Test (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Test
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Charlie

First of all - - At 08:26 AM 09/11/96 -0800, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, as matter stand right now, this is exactly the situation now.
>Hungarian citizenship -- as far as Hungarian law and as far as the Hungarian
>Government is concerned -- is nothing more than a piece of paper that says
>you were born in Hungary or born to Hungarian parents.  Those of us who live
>abroad are observing.

Disagree.
>
>Too bad...

To me, sounds like a real typical cop out.  There is no such thing as "too
bad" - when choices are made available to you - in my dictionary at least.
Your biggest grief seems to be that of not being invited/allowed to vote -
as a non-permanent resident by proxy  - yes?  Well, presently, their laws
state that you *must indeed be physically present in Hungary to do so*. It
does not state, that you are  banned from voting altogether.  If voting in
Hungary is so important to you, there is a way of ensuring that you do so.
Although that requires some sacrifice, the choice becomes yours to make.

>Other countries, while recognizing the subtle and not so subtle differences
>between their domestic residents and foreign diaspora, go out of their way
>to make their brethren feel welcome.  They understand the benefits of
>carefully tended relationships, the dividends of goodwill.  As the subject
>line shows, the Romanians do allow their citizens to vote.  The Poles are
>masters of it -- and their lobbying efforts in the US show the results.
>
Charlie, I am so sorry; but I just have to say this (and I know, that you
won't like it anymore than what I had to say above) ... If feeling welcomed
by a country of which you are a citizen of by choice  - is determined by
whether or not you're invited to vote as a non permanent resident, I cannot
to feel anything other than sorry for you.

During all my visits to Hungary (which are relatively numerous) be it prior
to my dual citizenship or after the fact - I have never been made felt
unwelcomed ... quite the contrary indeed.

Your intent appears to be one of wanting to make a difference within Hungary
and it's progress.  Extremely admirable, but, I don't believe that your are
limited to only voting - in order to accomplish such.  You can, for example,
sponsor students to allow them "foreign education"; you can, sponsor an
athletic entity of your choice - many of them are in grave danger of loosing
their cushioned ground; you can choose to go to Hungary and engage in joint
ventures; exchange of technical know-hows; volunteer to do just about
anything that you feel to be superior in knowledge over them - and they
will, I know, welcome you with open hearts and arms.  Who knows?  These
small gestures added up might well even prove to be more valuable in the
long run and as a whole than would casting of a vote.

>Why do we Hungarians wield the razor sharp sword of legal logic only to
>deepen the alienation between Hungarians and Hungarians?   Sometimes I feel
>it's a national curse...

You may well be right in feeling that Hungary has a national curse.  That
becomes another thread though.  For this thread, there is a law for now.
And how you allow that law to effect you emotionally is but your own choice.
Not even for one second, do I personally consider that the law was put in
place with the intent of "alienating Hungarians and Hungarians".  I still
maintain, that diplomats and permanent residents on scholarly, working
related absentees ought to be dealt with for voting, but permanent "non
residents - like you and many of us" - no way, should we be allowed to be
included within that realm.

> We are proudly standing by on the bridge of our
>slowly sinking ship of laws, while our nation is slowly dwindling in the
>surrounding sea full of more opportunistic, more enthusiastic nations who
>place a higher value on their common identity.  Isn't it time to discover
>what we all have in common rather than dig for our differences?
>
Again, I must object - only this time, highly so - We, would also include I.
And I have to tell you that for the last fifteen years, long before the
change of regime; have done much more than stand proudly by; and never have
I allowed myself to think that it was done so in the hopes of a "slowly
sinking ship of laws".

>Inviting Hungarians abroad to participate in the elections would be a great
>symbolic gesture along these directions.
>
Symbolic gestures are worth as much as "pupukaka".  In this instance, a
famous speech comes to mind ... "ask not, what you're country can do for
you, etc ....)

>I am well aware of some of the practical objections (taxes, etc.).  I'd be
>quite satisfied (maybe others would be, too) if Hungarians living abroad
>would have a set of  elected "observers" rather than representatives in
>Parliament.  In the US, Puerto Rico, Washington DC and Guam come to mind as
>territories which do not have full state status but send representatives to
>Congress.  They can participate in the debates, their views are sought out
>in topics that impact them, but they do not vote in budgetary matters.
>Where there is a will, there is a way.
>
You above paragraph is not within my scope of knowledge - in fact quite
beyond.  But I do like your closing nine words or so.... and in my closing,
I wish that you too would take a real close look at them - and apply it to
this thread, philosophically and otherwise.>
>
>Regards
Me too ....
Aniko
>
>
>Charlie Vamossy
>
>
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Magda Zimanyi and readers of this list:

        We obviously don't see eye to eye on the responsibility of the
press. We both admit that there are great, protracted difficulties
encountered on the way to radical political and economic change. Everybody
who is the least familiar with economics knew in 1990 that the
transformation in Eastern Europe was going to be difficult, but perhaps no
one realized the depth of the difficulties. No one wants to deny the
problems encountered during this transitional period, but while Magda
emphasizes the negative, I am trying to emphasize the positive. And--and
this is at the core of the argument--I do believe that the Hungarian
intellectual elite has a responsibility in lessening, at least through their
literary output, the difficulties encountered by the population. They have
the responsibility of keeping up the spirit instead of doing everything in
their power to discredit both democracy and the market economy. Magda claims
that the critics of life in Hungary "are not unhappy with market economy as
such." Maybe they themselves are not unhappy but by constantly harping on "a
magyar vadkapitalizmus," they are only inflaming the already inflamed public
opinion. Magda says that these people are only unhappy with the market
economy as "it is done now in Hungary." Sure, but this is the only market
economy which touches the lives of Hungarians, not some abstract concept the
population had no experience with.

        Magda then demands from me a more precise definition of what I mean
by "new regime." Fair enough. What I meant was not this or that government
but the whole transition period from existing socialism and one-party regime
to democracy and market economy. She points out that the critics of this
government are different from the critics of the former government. To put
it less obliquely: the critics of this government come mostly from the
supporters of the former right-of-center government, while the critics of
the Antall-Boross government came from the liberal-left opposition. I am not
really trying to avoid getting into a discussion on this topic, but I really
cannot speak with any authority of the political climate in Hungary before
the spring of 1994 because before that I didn't follow Hungarian politics.
Perhaps other people on this list can give a picture of that period.
Unfortunately, I can't. Whatever I could say is second hand with the
exception of my visit to Hungary in December 1993, when I was absolutely
flabberghasted by the hatred of the Antall government of practically
everybody I talked to. The elections confirmed my impressions. People talked
about poverty just as much then as now. People were disappointed in the
changes just as much as they are disappointed today. Everybody told me that
things were so bad that they couldn't get any worse! Today, apparently they
are worse. And when I mentioned the other day that the last time I was in
Hungary was in March, I was told that since then the situation had worsened
so much that I simply don't know what I am talking about! But to return to
the critics of the Antall-Boross government. I might not be familiar with
the exact political climate of that period but I do have some experience
with the reverberations of the defeat: most people in the government and
their supporters blame the press for their failure. Although I am far from
denying the power of the press, I doubt that the press itself could possibly
influence the outcome of the elections to such an extent as it did in 1994.
My guess is that the Antall-Boross government lost not because they were
so-so bad but because the transition was so very difficult and the
population wasn't at all prepared psychologically and otherwise for the
hardships which would accompany this change. And the Antall-government even
tried to cushion the population from the economic shocks by not dismantling
the social safety net and by not introducing the necessary austerity
program. As for this government the latest opinion polls indicate that the
popularity of this government is as low, if not lower, than was the Antall
government's. I think this just shows that the unpopularity of governments
since 1990 is closely tied to economic hardship.

        As for the Klara Feher article. Magda rightly points out that her
piece in Nepszava "could be called the tone of the far left as well." But
this is exactly what I have been talking about for the longest time, and
this is exactly what I consider so distasteful. The far-left and the
far-right is practically indistinguishable. So, when people extoll Klara
Feher's writing as a true depiction of reality--and these people are
certainly not friends of the current socialist-liberal government--they
embrace an ideology which is anathema to democracy and market economy. And
one more thing just to set the record straight: the far left is relatively
small and doesn't not pose any direct threat to Hungarian democracy. On the
other hand, some of the opposition party leaders' utterances are not very
different from those of Klara Feher. And these opposition parties represent
a far greater segment of Hungarian society than the far-left could ever muster.

        I know that Magda is not defending Klara Feher and she completely
agrees with me that "she is not the proper person to give vent to the
bitterness of
people who have to live in poverty."  However, she thinks that because
"poverty is real" it is all right, even for Klara Feher, to write about it.
Yes, certainly one can write about poverty. People should write about
poverty. The question is how? The excerpts from Klara Feher's piece struck
me as demagogic and not balanced. That's all.

        As for crossposting. I sure wasn't the one who brought up the
discussion on the Forum. Why don't you people ask Barna Bozoki about this.
He was the one who posted Klara Feher's piece on the Forum and subsequently
he was the one who brought up the subject on this list. As for the strange
bedfellows I meant some people on the Hungary list and not on the Forum. On
the Forum, as I mentioned earlier, most people didn't have a very good
opinion of Klara Feher but forgave her because "she was telling the truth."
Somehow I think that the "truth" is a bit more complicated than Klara
Feher's excerpt would indicate.

        I have a very low opinion of people who were whole-hearted
supporters of the Kadar regime and who in 1990 turned around 180 degrees. I
consider them to be turncoats, men and women without integrity. I understand
that everybody had to make compromises in Hungary, but there is a threshold
which divides the ordinary survivor from avid supporter. And, if I were
involved in right-of-center politics, I would not welcome former avid
supporters in the ranks of the opposition. But it seems that many opposition
politicians are not that fussy. They even made overtures to the left wing of
the MSZP against those horrid liberals.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:28 AM 09/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:03 PM 11/8/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

Joe - Eva; I agree with each of your views, and I believe that this is what
Amos has been saying also.

>
><snip>
>>        They want the law changed because they think that the law as it is
>>written now stinks. What nonsense that diplomats who happen to be outside of
>>the country at the time of the election cannot vote. Or students who are
>>simply studying abroad for a year or two. Or six months, doesn't matter. A
>>law which makes no provision for cases like that is a stupid law.
>
>I agree.
>
>>        But then comes the case of those who are Hungarian citizens who have
>>been living abroad for a number of years. One could argue that they have
>>forfeited their right to vote. But then, let's not stand on the platform
>>that anyone who was born in Hungary or anyone who was born to a Hungarian
>>parent even if abroad is a Hungarian citizen. Let's abolish this. Let's say.
>>You took out another citizenship, you lose the Hungarian one. Then, no one
>>would argue about the question of the right of voting or not voting. But as
>>long as I am considered to be a Hungarian citizen, I should be entitled to
>>vote. The current consitution denies that right but I wonder how one can
>>defend such a decision, simply on grounds of common sense. The right of the
>>ballot is part and parcel of citizenship.
>
>Only those who are permanent residents of Hungary should be allowed to vote
>in Hungarian elections.  Citizenship should mean more than just a piece of
>paper that says you were born in Hungary or born to Hungarian parents.  Only
>those who live and vote in Hungary should enjoy the success or failure of
>their ballot.  Those of us who now live abroad should be content to just
>observe.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Bozoki Barnabas,

> Bozoki Barnabas  > wrote:
>
> [...] I don't know what she did in the Rakosi era, but I
> am not surprised that she joined the communists, many people oppressed and
> persecuted during the Horthy era did with the belief that they are working
> for a better society (Illyes, Meray, Dery, .. )

I would suggest not to mention the three names together: there are big
differences. Illyes was never a party member. And of course never
mention Klara Feher together with the aforementioned three names: she
was on a much lower level anyhow...

BTW if I have taken the liberty to recall some activities of Klara
Feher -- Eva Balogh has cited my letter to the FORUM where I described
how she visited ecclesiastic schools giving a false name as an "agent
provocateur" and asking nuns about their opinions and writing what she
heard next day in Szabad Nep, the predecessor of Nepszabadsag -- I am
also taking the liberty to write a few words about Tibor Meray.

Most people know him as the biographer of Imre Nagy and as one of the
reform communists being very active in the Petofi Circle debates in
1956. However, we learned his name as the war correspondent of Szabad
Nep -- the party's daily newspaper -- during the Korean War. In his
most famous articles he stated that the American imperialists are
fighting the heroic Korean people by throwing poisoned flies from
airplanes into Korean territory. There was also a proof for this: he
sent home photos -- they were duly published in Hungarian newspapers
-- showing the flies. We did not see the poison on the photos but this
did not matter, the proof was there...

Because of these stories Hungarian newspapers gave to general Ridgway
the "epitheton ornans": "Ridgway, the plague general". He was always
mentioned so in Hungarian newspapers even several years after the end
of the Korean war.

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - The nasty Orban Re: HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>At 01:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> The Fidesz which is supposed to be right of center is
> becoming more and more nationalistic and lately Viktor Orban, its party
> chief, said some very, very nasty things about the liberals. Very nasty.

Eva, would you be so kind to give the details: what do you mean by
FIDESz "becoming more and more nationalistic", and especially:  what
vere the "very, very nasty things" Orban Viktor said about the
liberals?

I am asking only whether by chance you are referring to his speech he
gave at the 23 October meeting of the "Batthyany Alapitvany"
(Batthyany Foundation). I happened to be there, and as far as I can
remember he did not speak about "the liberals". However, he had some
critical words about the ruling parties (SzDSz and MSzP). BTW Orban's
speech -- which I found very interesting -- received standing ovation
from the audience which consisted mostly of respectable scientists,
university professors, etc. (no skinheads were present).

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Hungary list,

Eva Balogh > wrote on Thu Nov  7 in HUNGARY #841:

>         First, let me thank Aniko for that wonderful, up-to-date piece on
> her experiences in Hungary only a few days ago. Budapest is thriving, no
> question about it. Unemployment is practically nonexistent

 Unemployment is at about 5-6% in Budapest, much less here than in
other parts of the country.  The average for Hungary is 11-12% (not
taking into account people who are unemployed but who do not show up
in official statistics). However, in the Northeastern part of Hungary
there are cities with 40% and villages with 80-90% unemployment.

> and as several people on Internet lists said on the spot: anyone can
> get a job who wants to get it.

Sorry, as a person who is on several Internet lists and on the spot as
well I am in no position to confirm this statement.

> In some other parts of the Hungary the situation is not that rosy,
> especially in the northeast.

To put it mildly. I agree completely that 40% unemployment cannot be
considered as a rosy situation.

>  And yes, there is a large segment of the
> population -- retired people mostly -- who are very badly off.

That amonts to 2 1/2 - 3 million people: really a large segment.

> These people are the loosers of the "rendszervaltozas. And people
> we call "civil servants," (kozalkalmazottak) teachers and some doctors
> who don't get too many "envelopes" containing thousands of forints
> from the patients to make sure that they get special treatment also
> consider themselves loosers.

 I am afraid the number of losers in that category (public servants,
e.g. teachers, doctors, clerical workers etc.) amounts to nearly
another million.  Add to these the homeless, the unemployed, the
families with three or more children, Gypsies, people in small
villages, and add people who tried to start a small enterprise and
went bankrupt in no time.  Then you have quite a number of losers:
more than the half of the population.

>         Aniko, visiting the country once or twice a year, sees the changes
> ever more sharply than the ones who live there.

I am afraid we have to spend some time abroad to regain
sharp-sightedness...

> Moreover, those people--and that includes the right as well as the left
> -- who are unhappy with the introduction of market economy and democracy
> --. emphasize only the negative aspects of the changes and thus, giving
> basically a distorted picture of Hungarian society and economic life.

 Sure, it is possible that there are such people. Mostly on the far
left, of course. However, I would suggest to consider the possibility
that several people who are criticizing life in Hungary are not
unhappy with market economy as such.  They are only unhappy with the
way it is done now in Hungary.  That is, not everybody who sees the
negative aspects of the present developments is an enemy of market
economy.  I am afraid if one does not take into account those people
then the resulting picture will be basically distorted as well.

> And these people influence public opinion more and more against the
> new regime.

 Sorry, I am afraid this would need a little bit more explanation.
Which new regime are you talking about?  The Antall-, the Boross- or
the Horn-government?  Or all three of them?  I am afraid that "people
who influence public opinion against the new regime" are not the same
now who influenced public opinion against the "new regime", let us
say, 3 years ago.  As far as I know people who influenced public
opinion against the "new regime" between 1990-94 are now mostly
supporting the ruling parties.

> Now, let me emphasize again, I
> am not happy about the corruption of the political elite; I am not happy
> about many, many things, including the way Hungary has squandered its
> economic advantage in comparison to Czechoslovakia and Poland;

If you are unhappy with so many things -- and some of us could add a
lot to this list -- then why should not be other people unhappy as
well? And why should not other people express their unhappiness and
criticism?

> but I am optimistic that in five or ten years Hungary will be infinitely
> better off than it is today. And I mean, all segments of society.

I can only hope that your prophecies will come true.

> I consider the people who write articles like this demagogs. This is
> the article Barna Bozoki published in Forum and asked the people
> whether the situation was really that bad:
>
> [...excerpts from the paper of Feher Klara in the newspaper Nepszava...]
>
>  I found it especially interesting that the lady who wrote this piece
> was one of the worst, most subservient writers of the Rakosi regime.
> [...] And this woman today (she died shortly after writing this article)
> is writing in a tone which is basically the tone the far right.

 I am afraid it could be called the tone of the far left as well.  As
far as I know neither Klara Feher -- the journalist -- nor Nepszava --
the newspaper -- can be considered as ever belonging to the far right.

> This woman who received all the awards the old regime ever deviced
> (Kossuth, Attila Jozsef, God knows what else) is writing as being one of the
> "ordinary people." You know the kind who has to eat fallen peaches and the
> skin of chicken. Well, I think it is sickening! Absolutely sickening!

 I agree with you, eating skin of chicken should be really sickening
:-).  However, if you find the description of the way many retired
people have to live nowadays in Hungary sickening I can completely
agree with you in this matter, too: it is sickening that somebody who
worked all his/her life, has to live in poverty in his/her old days.

 Of course I am not defending Klara Feher: and I completely agree with
you that he is not the proper person to give vent to the bitterness of
people who have to live in poverty.  However, the poverty can be real.
Even if Klara Feher writes about it.

> And what I find even more sickening is that all the right wingers on
> the Forum stand by good old Klara Feher.

FORUM?  Sorry, Eva, you forgot: this is the HUNGARY list, not the
FORUM.  But if you really think that -- by good old cross-posting --
HUNGARY is the proper place to teach a lesson to the "right wingers on
the Forum who all stand by good old Klara Feher"  then I am afraid you
are giving "basically a distorted picture" of the debate on FORUM.

> Communist? Rakosi regime? A cheat? The author of the most God-awful
> communist drivel? Never mind. She is one of us now!

 May I very humbly ask you who talked so on the FORUM? As far as I can
remember nobody did.

>Let's work on public opinion and let's try to make sure that neither
>democracy nor market economy will work around here.  And a few days
>after the appearance of this piece of drivel, the skinheads lead by a
>neo-nazi are throwing chicken feet on the stairs of a public building
>"in order to call attention to the plight of the retired people."
>Now, this is really neat!  Words do have power, don't they?  Chicken
>feet?  I guess it is hard to throw chicken skin!
>         Sorry, being carried away,

I am afraid you have been really carried away.  How can you find a
connection between a newspaper article written by a seasoned
communist, and old, sick, frustrated and embittered woman -- who BTW
was dead by the time of the skinhead demonstration -- and the
provocative action of a bunch of skinheads who very probably never
read "Nepszava" and never heard about Feher Klara?  The only
connection is "chicken leg".

 However, the fact that the cheapest sort of meat is chicken leg is
common knowledge nowadays in Hungary.  Not only Feher Klara, not only
skinheads know this: every retired person knows this in Hungary.

> but I find this sickening. And by the way, it never fails: strange
> bedfellows can be found on this list also, when it comes to demagoguery.

Skinheads and Feher Klara as strange bedfellows? And whom else do you
consider as strange bedfellows? I am afraid you really have been
carried away...

BTW if the topic of cross-posting has come up again, may I ask you to
stop cross-posting? Several people have asked you several times to do
so. There some very good reasons to avoid cross-posting:

-- it is against fairness (writer of the original posting can not
   necessarily read and answer your posting),
-- it is against good taste,
-- it is against netiquette,
-- and last but nost least, very often it is giving basically a
   distorted picture of the original posting(s). IMHO unfortunately,
   this happened in this case, too.

 I apologize for the rather lengthy letter. Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - What is sickening? (Re: What is demagoguery?) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In HUNGARY #841 Eva S. Balogh > has restarted a fight (in
connection with Klara Feher) which appeared to come to an end on the
battlefields of FORUM.
>...                                     ... there is a large segment of the
>population--retired people mostly--who are very badly off. These people are
>the loosers of the "rendszervaltozas.
>[stuff deleted]
>...                                              those people--and
>that includes the right as well as the left--who are unhappy with the
>introduction of market economy and democracy--emphasize only the negative
>aspects of the changes and thus, giving basically a distorted picture of
>Hungarian society and economic life. And these people influence public
>opinion more and more against the new regime....
>                                                 I consider the people
>who write articles like this demagogs.
>[stuff deleted]

Now, E.S. Balogh about Feher Klara:
>        I found it especially interesting that the lady who wrote this piece
>was one of the worst, most subservient writers of the Rakosi regime.
>                                     ....Absolutely sickening!
>
And now it is our turn:
>        And what I find even more sickening is that all the right wingers on
>the Forum stand by good old Klara Feher. Communist? Rakosi regime? A cheat?
>The author of the most God-awful communist drivel? Never mind. She is one of
>us now!

What I found absolutely sickening is that Eva Balogh (again) qualifies
contributors of FORUM on another list, calling them right wingers (without
proper citation) just because their views about the present situation in
Hungary coincides with the bitter experience appearing in Feher Klara's
article. Again a typical case of unacceptable cross-posting.

>Let's work on public opinion and let's try to make sure that neither
>democracy nor market economy will work around here. And a few days after the
>appearance of this piece of drivel, the skinheads lead by a neo-nazi are
>throwing chicken feet on the stairs of a public building "in order to call
>attention to the plight of the retired people."

Do you think these skinheads read FORUM or HUNGARY? They do not even read
Nepszava in which Feher Klara's article was published.

>        Sorry, being carried away, but I find this sickening. And by the
>way, it never fails: strange bedfellows can be found on this list also, when
>it comes to demagoguery.

Could you please specify who these strange bedfellows are??

I hope I have not been carried away.

Sincerely,
George Jalsovszky

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