Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 810
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-10-08
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 TEST (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: The Hungarian swimming team (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
4 The straight poop on George Soros?? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Hungarian Heritage Network? (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
6 Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
7 Try IT (mind)  514 sor     (cikkei)
8 Walruses and kings (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
9 Budapest condo forsale (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Amazing... (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
13 Forty years ago: Canada and the Hungarian revolution, p (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
14 Hungary,the thread. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
16 Hungarian Heritage Network? (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
19 Szathmary Lajos (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
20 Will to Power? (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Sophistry (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Canada and the Hungarian Revolution (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
24 Canada and the Hungarian Revolution; part 12. (mind)  177 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Amazing America (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Amazing America (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
27 FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
28 FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
29 FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind)  172 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Your God!!! (mind)  91 sor     (cikkei)
31 FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
32 FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
33 HU-AM Coalition and National Security (mind)  114 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: Amazing America (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Amazing America (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Amazing America (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Amazing America (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Amazing America (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Suicide in Hungary - (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Thank You (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Amazing America (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: Amazing America (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing Amer (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
45 Re: Amazing America (mind)  65 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: Hungary and environment (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
47 Re: Amazing America (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
48 Re: Suicide in Hungary - (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
49 Contents: _Tortenelmi szemle_ v. 37, no. 3. (1995) (mind)  123 sor     (cikkei)
50 Forum: Ten Untaught Lessons about Central Europe (mind)  127 sor     (cikkei)
51 The Bible - (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
52 Re: Amazing America (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
53 Re: Amazing America (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
54 Re: Amazing America (mind)  81 sor     (cikkei)
55 Re: Hungary,the thread. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
56 Re: Amazing America (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
57 Re: Amazing... (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
58 Re: Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing Amer (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
59 Re: The Bible - (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
60 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
61 Re: Your God!!! (mind)  91 sor     (cikkei)
62 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
63 Re: Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing Amer (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
64 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
65 Re: Your God!!! (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
66 Re: Amazing America (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
67 Re: Walruses and kings (mind)  96 sor     (cikkei)
68 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
69 To Jeliko (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
70 Salaries *not only* in Hungary (mind)  79 sor     (cikkei)

+ - TEST (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

test
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:25 PM 10/1/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>No, sir, Hungary did not inflicted miseries on itself. The Big
>Brother did it. In Trianon the Antant was the Big Brother,

        One cannot blame everything on Trianon and the Entente. You have to
understand that because otherwise you will have a faulty notion of Hungarian
history. Hungary was not entirely innocent in its handling of the
nationalities and as a result acquired a very bad reputation abroad. How
deserved or undeserved this reputation was can be debated but the fact
remains that Hungary whose international reputation was shining after 1848
ruined it by the end of the century.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The Hungarian swimming team (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:46 AM 9/29/96 -0700, Akos wrote in connection with the Swimming
Association scandal:

>Actual there was not trial at all they got the result from a fictive one.
>This trouble was already published before the Olympic games in MAI NAP and
>nobody
>cared.

        Dear Akos and everybody else interested. Yes, as soon as I had
finished the letter and fired it off, I read the details of the feud between
Gyarfas and Fenyo. Yet, don't you think that it is incredible that the MAI
NAP publishes an investigative piece which reveals that the pre-trial was a
fictive one and yet "nobody cares"? What's wrong with us? As they say it in
Hungarian: "a fuluk botjat sem mozgatjak" when there is discovery of
big-time fraud! Incredible.


>So NEPSZAVA came back with this 'news' which appeared on the first page of it
>at least twice as large in size as the visiting of the pope.
>Then Gyarfas ordered another article from a journalist on 'Hungarian Olympic
>frauds' which never appeared as the newspapers was not willing to publish it.

        Or here is another sentence which strikes those of us who have been
living abroad for considerable amount of time as odd! Who ordered what?
Gyarfas "ordered another article from a journalist"? Am I hearing right?

>By the way the swimmers knew about this fraud and accepted it (so they
>reelected
>Gyarfas).

        Why shouldn't have they accepted the results? Eleven young swimmers
qualified this way and were allowed to travel to Atlanta for a little
"international experience," as Gyarfas and Co. called the trip. Apparently,
such an international experience gives the youngsters confidence and thus
they did well on some European meet.

        Sorry, but all this is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned, but
perhaps I am a purist. I don't like fraud; I don't like cheating; I don't
like the idea that people can "order" articles.

        Eva Balogh
+ - The straight poop on George Soros?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For years I have been reading about this fellow George Soros who SEEMS
to be doing an incredible job at sharing his wealth, especially with
Eastern and Central European countries of the old COMECOM block (tsk,
tsk, I know....).

Now I read that Soros has offered $US 50 million to help lawful
newcomers to the shores of the States. These immigrants  would be
"hurt" by the new  "mean-spirited" Congressional law that would deny
them food stamps, and other federal aid. (This is another topic...let
it be, please).

So, (he asks naively) what IS the straight dope on George Soros. Every
time I asked in the past I got deadly silence, but from articles I see
flying by on the Usenet, it appears that opinions are strongly
polarized.

Can someone offer a DISpassionate summary on whether this man is
friend or foe, and to whom?

I would love to brag about him, IF I could.

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Hungarian Heritage Network? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>
>During the 70s and 80s there was a little publication with the name of
>"Hungarian Heritage Review," published by the Rakoczi Foundation, with
>Paul Pulitzer as editor.
>
>I really liked it, since it was intended for the likes of
>us....Hungarians, a bit removed from our homeland, but with a genuine
>interest in our roots and heritage.
>
>The magazine struggled for a while, despite many contributions,
>eventually and sadly, dying by some nefarious means at the beginning
>of the of the 90s. I was reminded of it by a notice on this list about
>Chef Louis Szatmary's passing, since he was a regular contributor with
>his marvelous recipes.
>
>From the "Heritage" I learned about a Hungarian huszar who fought at
>Alamo, about Brigadier General Huba Wass de Czege ("the
>Hungarian-American Jedi Knight"), about Estee Lauder, etc. There were
>articles about the contributions of Hungarians to the world of science
>and arts, about history, about events in the States (sorry, folks, but
>it was meant for American-Hungarians). Overall, with and
>underdeveloped Internet and living in the South I had a "contact" with
>things Hungarian.
>
>Of course, the advent of the electronic media and the Net would have
>probably made it obsolete anyway, but I miss it: there is something so
>reassuring about holding a magazine in one's hands....
>
>Is there is anything like it, to anyone's knowledge, out "there?"
>Extant, I mean.
>
>What was the background story on the Rakoczi Foundation?
>
>Recently, I received a note from Istvan "Steve" Mihaly, who lives in
>San Diego, and who is a translator in Hungary for the IFOR forces in
>support of the Bosnia mission.
>
>He says he is the the founder of the Hungarian American Heritage
>Network.
>
>Does anyone know anything about this fellow and what he is up to?
>
>Bandi
>
>P.S. Has anyone tried to teach an English-spekaing spouse or friend to
>say:
>
> Ti, gyo:nyo:ru" gyerekek, gyertek ide gyorsan!
>
>     or
>
>Nagyon o:ru:lo:k hogy O:n nem O"ru"lt
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>No, but one in myson-in-laws is very proficient in saying "kedves
egeszsegedre".

Agnes
>Just kidding.... :-) :-)
>
>
>=============================================================
>      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
>                 <mailto:>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
>=============================================================
>
>
>
+ - Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Baratsagos Udvozletem!

Kivancsi vagyok hogy van-e vagy el-e valaki Nottinghamban?
Azert szeretnek talakozni Nottinghami magyarokkal, mert most kaptam
egy allast ajanlatot onnan, s egy ket helybeli korulmenyrol szeretnek
erdeklodni, na meg egy ismeretsegi kort is szeretnek kialakitani.

Boldog lennek ha valaszt kapnek valakitol! Udv. Szabo Attila

E-mail: 
+ - Try IT (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

hank you very much for viewing this message. A
> >short while after you begin this program you will realize what
> >a remarkable money machine this is. Nine days after my sponsor began
> >advertising on line, she received 32 envelopes. Each sender had
> >enclosed $5.00. Forty seven days after her first advertisement
> >appeared on line, the total receipts had risen to $17,654. She ran 15
> >ads for a two-week period and during that time, sent this file to 168
> >people. She stopped sending the file after she had received 23 envelopes;
> >each one contained $5.00.
> >
> >"I've just begun to run the program again and I'm amazed at how
> >predictable it is. The results appear to be slightly ahead of last time."
> >
> >Read the whole report and I'm sure you will want to start building
> >your list immediately...I sure did!!!
> >
> >Your only risk in participating in this program is the $10.00 that
> >you send to the list members and the few dollars that it cost to
> >advertise and transmit the file to those who respond. You'll get
> >that back in the first few envelopes.  After that...
> >
> >$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ... IT'S PURE PROFIT $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> >
> >
> >Remember, the program works because of the honesty of the participants.
> >
> >SEND YOUR 6 ENVELOPES (WITH A TOTAL OF $10.00) THE DAY YOU BEGIN THE
> >PLAN.  WORK THE PROGRAM HONESTLY AND DILIGENTLY AND YOU WILL REAP
> >GREAT REWARDS.
> >
> >                               GO FOR IT! YOU WILL NEVER REGRET IT!
> >$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> >
> >
> >
> >You may have seen a MUCH LONGER, LONGER, LONGER version of this
> >program on-line.  This is the SHORT VERSION!
> >NO letters needed and very inexpensive to E-Mail.
> >
> >                       DON'T MISS THE BOAT ON THIS ONE.
> >
> >                   IT'S TOO EASY AND THE MONEY'S GREAT.
> >
> >Before you say no and just hit the old delete button try
> >thinking about it like this.  You could take a chance and
> >make alot of money, or you could take the $10 to McDonalds
> >and grab a burger.  I was one of those, don't get me wrong
> >today you have to be,then I tried it.
> >
> >I did all the RIGHT things, such as ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE,
> >ADVERTISE and before you know it I was paying taxes on alot
> >more money than in the past.
> >
> >Basically, it is a list of 10 people who have already decided
> >paying taxes is a lot more enjoyable than eating burgers. They
> >joined by mailing money to others.  When you join you must mail
> >out $10 total.  You join by mailing $1 to #1,2,3,4,5
> >AND mailing $5 to #10.
> >
> >You then edit the file to remove the name in #1.  Move all the
> >other nine names up one spot leaving #10 blank.  Then you add
> >your name next to #10.  YOU THEN PLACE CLASSIFIED AD'S ON-LINE.
> >Place your AD's on any BBS that you have access to and you'll
> >have greater success. When you get responses, you send them
> >this entire file AS IS.
> >
> >Since you are then #10 on their lists, they will send you $5
> >per person that joins.  You then move up to #9.  When others
> >join after them, you become #8, and so on.
> >
> >When you reach #5, you will then be receiving $1 from
> >thousands of people who joined way after you since the list
> >expands geometrically (see diagram in the SUMMARY at end).
> >
> >If only two people join after you, you get your $10 back in a
> >week.  Anything after that is pure PROFIT.
> >
> >Thousands of people have made BIG money with this program, as
> >much as hundreds of thousands of dollars in two months!!
> >
> >DON'T MISS OUT JOIN NOW, just follow the green-brick road!
> >
> >-------------
> >WHAT IT COSTS:
> >-------------
> >It costs $10 to join.
> >
> >-----------
> >WHAT YOU DO:
> >-----------
> >READ THIS FILE COMPLETELY BEFORE USING IT!
> >It is an EXCELLENT PROGRAM and if you use it, you are agreeing
> >to ALL the terms in THE AGREEMENT at the end.  Have fun making
> >LOTS OF MONEY!  I am.
> >
> >1.  STORE THIS FILE
> >2.  MAIL $10 TOTAL OUT to people on the list - described below.
> >3.  UPDATE THE LIST - add your name to it as described below.
> >4.  PLACE ADS ON-LINE.
> >5.  MAIL THIS FILE VIA E-MAIL - to all responses to your ad.
> >    until 20 of the responses have JOINED - described below.
> >6.  WAIT FOR THE MONEY TO ROLL IN - spend it as you wish.
> >
> >--------------
> >WHAT TO EXPECT:
> >--------------
> >1.  YOU WILL RECEIVE $5 FROM EACH PERSON WHO JOINS UNDER YOUR
> >    NAME.  You get your $10 back IMMEDIATELY as #10 and here's
> >    the beauty of it...with ONLY TWO PEOPLE joining under you!!
> >2.  YOU WILL RECEIVE $1 FROM EACH OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE in two
> >    months.
> >
> >As each person joins, the names on the list move
> >up and when YOUR NAME reaches position #5 you will receive
> >$1 from thousands of people who have joined way after you.
> >The sooner you join the better.
> >
> >----------
> >HIGHLIGHTS:
> >----------
> >1.   Investment required:   $10.
> >
> >2.   Limited distribution:  You will stop sending the file when
> >     20 PEOPLE HAVE JOINED IMMEDIATELY UNDER YOU.
> >
> >3.  Editing prohibited:    You MAY NOT change ANYTHING in this
> >     file, other than deleting name #1, moving the names up one and adding
> >your
> >     own name as #10.
> >
> >4.  Upgrading allowed:     You MAY use this file if you currently have any
> >previous versions of the long file BUT YOU MUST STILL PAY #10 the $5
unless
> >you already paid #10 for any other version.
> >
> >5.  Step-by-step info:     To help newcomers joining.
> >6.  3-Point Checklist:     To ensure you did everything right.
> >7.  5-Point Agreement:     a) If you send file out, you agree to all
> >     b) If you don't agree, you MAY NOT send out this file to anyone.
> >
> >------------
> >INSTRUCTIONS
> >------------
> >Welcome to the world of Mail Order!
> >
> >This home business is a little different than most mail-order
> >businesses.  Your product is not solid and tangible, but rather a service.
> >
> >Basically, you are in the business of developing Mailing Lists.
> >Many large corporations are happy to PAY BIG BUCKS for quality
> >mailing lists.
> >
> >The money YOU WILL MAKE from the mailing lists are secondary to the
> >income which is made from people like yourself requesting that
> >they be included in that list.
> >
> >------------------
> >WHAT YOU WILL NEED:  Get the following SIX items BEFORE starting:
> >------------------
> >
> >1.  6 Envelopes - preferably business size
> >2.  6 Stamps - 32 cents each
> >3.  6 Pieces of paper - large enough for one sentence
> >4.  A Pen
> >5.  1 $5.00 bill   (U.S. currency)
> >6.  5 $1.00 bills  (U.S. currency)
> >
> >When you have stored this entire file, read it, and have
> >everything you need above, follow the six sections below to begin.
> >Now, Let's Go!  Isn't this fun?  It should be and you should be
> >getting very excited at this point.
> >
> >1)  SAVE THIS FILE.
> >
> >2)  MAIL $10 TOTAL OUT:
> >    ------------------
> >
> >DO THESE STEPS IN ORDER:
> >
> >1. Address six envelopes to the names in the following
> >     positions:  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10
> >     NOTE: The last envelope goes to name 10 (TEN)
> >            (NOT name #6) IS RIGHT!
> >
> >2. Place a stamp on each envelope.
> >3. Write the following on each of the six pieces of paper:
> >       PLEASE ADD MY NAME TO YOUR MAILING LIST.
> >4. Insert each piece of paper in each envelope.
> >5. Insert a $1.00 bill in envelopes to: names 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
> >6. Insert the $5.00 bill in the last envelope to name 10.
> >7. Seal the six envelopes.
> >8. Mail the six envelopes.
> >
> >THIS IS A LEGITIMATE SERVICE THAT YOU ARE REQUESTING.
> >
> >YOU ARE PAYING $1 FOR THIS SERVICE TO EACH OF #1 - 5,
> >AND $5 TO #10).
> >If you did the eight steps above, go to 3 below.  If you have
> >not done the eight steps above, go back and do them NOW BEFORE
> >going to step three below!
> >
> >
> >3)  UPDATE THE LIST AS FOLLOWS:
> >   --------------------------
> >If you have NOT done everything in (2) above you CANNOT continue!  Go
> back to
> >(2) above and AFTER you've done EVERYTHING there come back here to this
> >section!
> >
> >    1. REMOVE the name that appears as #1 on the list.
> >    2. MOVE the other nine names up one position. (#2 will
> >        become #1 and #3 will become #2, etc.)
> >    3. PLACE YOUR NAME, ADDRESS AND ZIP CODE IN THE #10
> >        POSITION.
> >
> >4)  PLACE ON-LINE ADS:
> >    -----------------
> >    It is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL for you to ADVERTISE ON-LINE and
> >    to E-MAIL THIS COMPLETE FILE to people responding to YOUR
> >    advertisements.
> >
> >    IF YOU DON'T advertise, you CANNOT generate responses AND
> >    THEREFORE, YOUR name (in the #10 position when you SEND
> >    the file) will NEVER move up and you will NEVER make
> >    money!  You  M U S T advertise on-line.  If you advertise
> >    EXACTLY where you found this advertisement and in other
> >    CATEGORIES on the bulletin board, you will generate LOTS
> >    of responses (you REPLIED to my ad didn't you?).
> >
> >    THE FOLLOWING IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED:
> >
> >1.  SPACE AND CAPITALIZE YOUR SUBJECT. EXAMPLE:
> >     N E T W O R K   M A R K E T I N G!
> >
> >        This separates your ad from the clutter of everyone
> >        else's (since most people rarely use spaces between
> >        the letters). The reader will spot your ad because it
> >        S T A N D S  O U T and will respond.
> >
> >2.  USE EYE-CATCHING PHRASES:  F  R  E  E   M  O  N  E  Y
> >         Who can resist responding to this?  Did YOU?  Make the
> >         subject irresistible.  Spur the reader's curiosity.
> >
> >3.  KEEP THE AD VERY BRIEF: EX: Press REPLY for THE BEST
> >         easy cash information.  This saves you money in
> >         advertising.  The shorter the better.  Again, you
> >         responded and I saved money advertising.  And so will YOU too.
> >
> >Don't worry about using the exact same ad as the one you
> >read when you responded to my ad.  You have my permission.
> >I won't lose anything by it.  If anything, my name will
> >move that much faster up the list.  So will YOURS, when the
> >next person to reply to YOUR AD receives the file EASYCA from YOU.
> >Use this exact same file, BUT YOU MAY NOT ALTER ITS CONTENTS,
> >FORMAT, STRUCTURE, ETC., IN ANY WAY, MANNER, OR FORM OTHER THEN TO
> >DELETE THE NAME IN THE #1 POSITION, MOVE ALL THE OTHER NAMES UP ONE
> >POSITION, AND ADD YOUR OWN NAME IN THE #10 POSITION.
> >
> >This means:
> >YOU MAY USE this file, BUT YOU MAY NOT ADD ANYTHING ELSE to it
> >OR TAKE AWAY ANYTHING ELSE from it OR CHANGE ANYTHING ELSE IN IT.
> >NOT one DOT.
> >Why?  Because this file has been thoroughly TESTED, REVISED, and
> >RETESTED in market studies, and the results indicate that MORE
> >THAN 98.3% OF THE PEOPLE RECEIVING THIS UNALTERED FILE WILL JOIN!
> >
> >Any alterations in this file at all, will NOT improve your
> >response rate and will probably DRASTICALLY REDUCE RESPONSE
> >RATE FROM 98.3% TO LESS THAN 13%!!
> >Don't try to reinvent the wheel, it's already been invented
> >just ROLL with it!
> >
> >For those of you still skeptical, why do you think there are so
> >many variations of this file. Because they've all been
> >tried, and revised, and THIS ONE, is the one that EVOLVED from
> >those, and will PULL IN THE GREATEST RESPONSE.
> >
> >Go ahead, if you want, try the others, you'll soon see you are
> >wasting precious time, money and the positive response rate won't
> >even come CLOSE to THIS one.
> >
> >5)  MAIL THIS FILE VIA E-MAIL:
> >    ------------------------
> >    E-Mail this entire file AS IS when you get responses to
> >    your on-line ads UNTIL YOU HAVE 20 PEOPLE WHO JOINED under
> >    you.  NOT everyone who receives the file will join.  But
> >    most will.  Note the ID#s of the people responding.
> >
> >    HOW TO MAIL THE FILE:
> >    After you get E-Mail responding to your ad, you need to SEND
> >    them this ENTIRE FILE AS IS.  Just BE SURE TO NOTE THE ID# of
> >    the person responding.
> >
> >6)  WAIT FOR THE MONEY TO ROLL IN:
> >    -----------------------------
> >    As soon as people responding to YOUR ads join YOUR list,
> >    THEY WILL EACH BE SENDING YOU THE $5 bill.  So, for
> >    example, in a 2-week period, if you get 100 responses to
> >    join under you, you'll receive 100 x $5 = $500.
> >
> >    Not bad considering you invested only $10 right!  You may
> >    get less or LOTS MORE.  At any rate, WHEN ONLY two PEOPLE
> >    JOIN YOU'LL HAVE YOUR $10 BACK!!  (This will happen A LOT
> >    SOONER than you think, within a week you'll already be
> >    EVEN.)
> >
> >    PLEASE NOTE:  This is a TEAM effort.  Everyone must adhere
> >    to the rules.  If YOU send out to 500 responses who join,
> >    you'll make 500 x $5 = $2,500 BUT the list will SLOW DOWN
> >    since there will be less people available to join and the
> >    BIG money is with the $1 bills IN THE LONG RUN, NOT the $5
> >    bills in the SHORT RUN!
> >
> >    You WANT to allow others to join UNDER PEOPLE UNDER YOU so
> >    that the list can FLY!  That's why it is SO IMPORTANT to
> >    STOP SENDING THE FILE ONCE YOU HAVE 20 PEOPLE WHO SIGNED
> >    ON IMMEDIATELY UNDER YOU.  HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN TO STOP
> >    SENDING FILES OUT?  WHEN YOU HAVE RECEIVED 20 $5 BILLS
> >    ($100)!  Of course you may be receiving plenty of $1 bills
> >    in the meantime.  That's O.K.  Keep sending files out UNTIL
> >    you receive 20 $5 BILLS!
> >
> >    You start at #10 and when your name reaches #5, you will be
> >    on thousands of lists.  IF YOU DO NOT PUT YOURSELF IN #10,
> >    YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE $5 FROM EACH AND EVERY PERSON YOU
> >    SEND THIS FILE TO (WHO IS ALSO REQUIRED TO SEND $5. TO #10.
> >    THAT'S YOU ON THEIR LIST)!
> >    ----------------------------------------------------------
> >    WITHIN 60 DAYS YOU WILL RECEIVE OVER $50,000.00 IN CASH!!!
> >    ----------------------------------------------------------
> >    KEEP A COPY OF THIS FILE FOR YOURSELF so that you can use
> >    it AGAIN AND AGAIN whenever you need money.  As soon as you
> >    mail out these letters you are automatically in the mail-
> >    order business and SOME PEOPLE WILL BE SENDING YOU $1 to be
> >    placed on your mailing list and THE PEOPLE YOU SEND THE
> >    FILE TO, WILL BE SENDING YOU $5 to also be placed on your
> >    mailing list.  This list can then be rented to a mailing
> >    list broker that can be found in the Yellow Pages for
> >    additional income on a regular basis.  The list will become
> >    MORE VALUABLE AS IT GROWS in size.
> >
> >    This is a service.  This is perfectly legal.  If you have
> >    any doubts, refer to Title 18, Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the
> >    postal lottery laws.
> >
> >NOTE: Make sure you retain EVERY name and address sent to you,
> >      either on computer or hard copy, but DO NOT discard the
> >      notes ("Please add my name to your mailing list.") they
> >      send you.  This is PROOF that you are truly providing a
> >      service and should the IRS or some other Government
> >      agency question you, you can provide them with this proof!
> >
> >                --------------------------
> >                BEGIN LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
> >                --------------------------
> >
> >1.   Nancy Shapiro      ($1)
> >          862 Freels Peak Drive
> >          Incline Village, NV 89451
> >
> >2.   Hugh J. Hichcock ($1)
> >          P.O. Box 611026
> >          N.Miami FL 33261-1026
> >
> >3.   Steve Rossi ($1)
> >          549 E. Main St #E76
> >          Hendersonville, TN 37075
> >
> >4.   Jerry Freeman ($1)
> >          103 Hutchins Dr.
> >          Garner, NC 27529
> >
> >5.   S.E. Reeb ($1)
> >          12615-E Wisteria Dr., Suite 108.
> >          Germantown, MD 20876
> >
> >6.   M.L. Queen
> >          P.O. Box 2546
> >          Prince Frederick, MD 20678
> >
> >7.   Alfred J. Emmi
> >         9340 B. Somerville Avenue
> >         Ft. Bliss, TX  79906
> >
> >8.   J.L. Kelly
> >         P.O. Box 39
> >         Unionville, CT.  06085
> >
> >9.   D.M. Candel
> >          P.O. Box 492
> >         Franklin Square, N.Y. 11010
> >
> >10.  Oscar Barriuso ($5)
> >         713 S. Randolph #24
> >         Champaign, Il 61820
> >
> >                ---------------------------------------------
> >                END LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
> >                ---------------------------------------------
> >
> >                      SUMMARY
> >                      ----------------
> >1.  SAVE this file.
> >
> >2.  MAIL $10 TOTAL OUT:  Do the 8 steps in Section 2.
> >
> >3.  UPDATE THE LIST:     Do the 3 steps in Section 3.
> >
> >4.  PLACE ADS all over the bulletin boards.  The more the better.
> >      --->  NOTE ID#s of everyone when you get inquiries to your ads.
> >
> >5.  E-MAIL THIS EXACT FILE TO OTHERS
> >
> >6.  WAIT FOR THE MONEY:
> >
> >    When the $1 bills starts rolling in, in about 4 - 5 weeks,
> >    be ready for it!  (Don't forget that the $5 bills will
> >    begin rolling in MUCH SOONER: give it a week, but don't be
> >    surprised if in 3 - 4 DAYS you start getting them as you
> >    well should! -- a few days after people you send the file
> >    to read it and join by sending you $5.)
> >    If you send the file to 10 people who join, and they all
> >    send to 10 who join, and those 10 send to 10, etc., this
> >    is how fast your name will move to #1:
> >
> >                            ---------
> >                            DIAGRAM
> >                            ---------
> >
> >THEY SEND TO                  YOUR #           ON THIS MANY LISTS
> >YOU SEND TO                        10            10   10
> >THE $5 ROLL IN:             10 = $50.00       9    100
> >                                            100           8    1000
> >                                          1000            7    10000
> >                                        10000            6    100000
> >THE MONEY ROLLS IN:     100000             5    1000000   = $$$!
> >                                    1000000             4    10000000
> >                                  10000000              3    100000000
> >                                100000000               2    1000000000
> >                              1000000000                1    10000000000
> >
> >Now let's get REAL here...YOU'RE NOT going to receive BILLIONS
> >of dollars despite how good the numbers look.
> >
> >Why not?  Because, unfortunately, SOME OF YOU are NOT going to
> >DO IT.  So of course, those won't get ANY money BUT the VAST
> >MAJORITY OF YOU WILL DO IT (over 98.3% positive response): send
> >the money and the files out.  YOU WILL DEFINITELY RECEIVE MONEY.
> >
> >However, no matter how good in theory, sooner or later the process
> >breaks down so INSTEAD OF RECEIVING BILLIONS OR MILLIONS, you'll
> >only receive a few thousand or hundred thousand or so.  But at
> >that point, WHO REALLY CARES?  That's MORE MONEY THAN
> >MOST PEOPLE MAKE IN A YEAR IN A FULL-TIME JOB!
> >
> >And when the money finally stops, guess what?, you can do it
> >ALL OVER AGAIN!!
> >
> >7.   HAVE FUN depositing the money in your bank account.
> >
> >                     ---------
> >                     CHECKLIST
> >                     ---------
> >1.  Did you mail $1 to each of #1, 2, 3, 4, 5?
> >2.  Did you mail $5 to #10 only?
> >3.  Did you place on-line advertisements?
> >
> >If you DID ALL of the above, YOU'RE READY to receive responses
> >and mail this file out and receive money.
> >
> >If you MISSED ANY OF THE 3 STEPS in the checklist above, DO
> >THEM RIGHT AWAY so you can begin to receive responses and thus
> >receive money.
> >
> >                    ---------------
> >                    THE AGREEMENT
> >                    ---------------
> >1.  You agree that you will send out a $1 bill to each of the
> >    names listed in positions #1, 2, 3, 4, 5 AND that you will
> >    send out a $5 bill to the name listed in position #10 only,
> >    for a total investment of $10, BEFORE sending this file to
> >    anyone or posting it on any bulletin board.
> >
> >2.  You agree to use this file exactly as when you received it
> >    in accordance with Section 4) Place On-line Ads.  That is,
> >    you agree you will not alter this file, unless you're merely
> >    moving the names from positions 1-9 up one position, in
> >    order, and adding your own name to position #10.
> >
> >3.  You agree that you will stop sending this file when you have
> >    20 PEOPLE who JOINED immediately under you so that the names
> >    can move up MUCH faster so EVERYONE can make money faster.
> >    Including YOU.
> >
> >Now if you haven't enrolled, go back to the checklist and DO IT NOW!
> >Remember...you only use $10 to make $thousands!!!
> >
> >Good Fortune
> >
> >PS:  It has been noted that some unscrupulous people are initiating this
> >program without complying with ALL the rules.  Mainly the rule of
> sending the
> >cash to the recipients on the list.  They are simply putting the program
> >on-line without participating...trying to make a quick buck.  Believe
> me, the
> >program will not work that way.  It disrupts the normal flow and everyone
> >suffers.  Also the people who do this can be sure that their names
have been
> >recorded by the person who sent the program to them.  The on-line ads are
> >very important so keep doing them and good luck.
> >****************************************************
> >DO NOT CONTINUE THIS WITH THIS OPPORTUNITY UNLESS YOU HAVE
> >COMPLETED  ALL THE STEPS DESCRIBED ABOVE. THIS WOULD STOP THE FLOW
> >OF PROSPERITY.  THIS IS A TEAM EFFORT.
+ - Walruses and kings (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To All:

I am posting this not as a response to Aniko's call to the colors (and=20
many colors they are) but as a result of having observed the fray for=20
a long enough time to be able to make up my mind to join it. Both my=20
hips are artificial, and the doctors advised me to keep away from my=20
legs being pulled,  it could be extremely hazardous to my health. I am=20
sure there will be some out there who will say that it is unfair to=20
use a handicap as a crutch, still, I have to use a crutch for my=20
handicap.=20
I thank the member who shared with us the joke about the little boy=20
and politics. I deleted already the entire posting, so I don't=20
remember who it was, but I did enjoy it.=20
The subjects to be tackled are numberless. God, suicide, Amazing=20
America,  rounding up the Jews in Hungary, nazism, communism,=20
capitalism, and so on. I am no expert in any of these. I like to=20
picnic in the woods, but I am no forester, nor lumber man, not even an=20
environmentalist.  But it does hurt me when the trees are felled, even=20
though I understand, that we need lumber, telegraph poles, railroad=20
ties, etc. Yet, I believe that I should put in my dime's worth, mainly=20
because I am old, and though younger generations can scream their=20
heads off, they can't take away from me the volume of my experience.=20
Certainly, there are people who don't  learn from experience. And=20
there are those. who observe the world around them, but if events=20
don't happen to them, do not affect them, they stand there gazing as=20
the child in front of the lion cage, seeing, but not comprehending.
More then a year ago I had a longish debate with a man living in=20
Bulgaria , with a Polish name but professing Hungarian relationships.=20
It was on the VITA list. He turned out to be a fanatical Catholic, who=20
wasn't interested in debate, only in proving his Credo. I recounted=20
the innumerable atrocities and disasters caused by the Christians in=20
the name of God, and the equally innumerable occasions when God let=20
down the faithful, but nothing helped. I had to quit, realizing, that=20
there is no way to shake the faith of a true believer, and, what's=20
more, it is not  up to anybody to try to do so. The faithful are happy=20
in their beliefs, and are helped by it, so why undermine them? As long=20
as they leave me alone.  Hungarians are among those, who had the=20
opportunity to feel the hand of "God" through their history, and many=20
of them still believe. But that is nothing compared to the Jews. the=20
chosen, who were obviously chosen to suffer.  Whether their suffering=20
was caused by the Romans, the Spanish, the Jesuits, the English ,=20
Hitler or Nyetanyahu, what's the difference?
Another thing. What is God? The word is English, derived from the=20
German Gott, and has really nothing to do with Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah,=20
Dieu, Dios, or Isten. Each of those, and many more come from entirely=20
different concepts.  The multi-God systems at least separated the Gods=20
for good, from the Gods for bad. The monotheistic religions forced=20
themselves to unite the good and the evil in one entity, and to me it=20
just doesn't work. It can very well be the cause of most human=20
disasters. =20
The idealists of the world, who are either just naive, or not=20
intelligent enough to see the light (or darkness), only change when=20
the un-ideal events affect them directly. Then they become cynics. =20
Then, according to their genetic make-up, they either go on living in=20
a rage, but thoroughly cognizant of the fact, the they can't really=20
change anything, or learn the ways, and become one of the numerous=20
mis-leaders in the world, or, if they remain idealists, and their=20
sense of responsibilities at large allows them, commit suicide.  Since=20
their life is their own (even for the God fearing, life is not a gift,=20
just a loan), in my opinion they are free to end it.  Their families=20
remain, eternally injured by this deed, but there is nothing=20
prohibiting them from committing suicide, too.  History is full of=20
family suicides, and even some animals (lemmings, whales) participate=20
in it.  Ethics, morality? Moral is that is customary (mores) : it=20
changes, varies from tribe to tribe.  The Japanese have elevated=20
ritual suicide to the height of extreme heroism, and so did the early=20
Christians.  All those martyrs could have preserved what they=20
considered their gift from God, life, with a short statement. But they=20
preferred to die, and had the right to. Still, beware of idealists,=20
political, religious, or any other kind.  They will never realize that=20
harmony in the world can only be achieved without the human race.
=20
Enough for today.  I hope you all will have a field day pointing out=20
the contradictions.

Karoly

Az =E9let olyan mint egy gyerek ing: r=F6vid =E9s szaros.
+ - Budapest condo forsale (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

84 m2, 2-bedroom condo overlooking the Buda Hills in a beautiful,
small apartment house of Budapest' s exclusive Rozsadomb disrict
(Nagybanyai Street) is for immediate sale. It features telephone,
garage, hardwood floor and gas central heating. Easy access to the
city: downtown is just a short, convenient 15-minute ride by public
transportation. You'll find other details on the Web page

http://spengler.econ.duke.edu/lakas1.html

If you are interested, please send an E-mail to .
+ - Re: Amazing... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:

>Real US
>conservatives are true capitalists, unlike the confused Hungarian pseudo-
>conservatives who prefer a coctail of religious extremism and the purest
>of anticapitalist corporatism and statism that would make Mussolini
>and Khrushchev proud even though their religions were a little different.

Statements like this I find objectionable because they imply the
superiority of one nation over another.  Why do you need to add national
labels?  Actually, your statement would have equal validity if it read:

"Real Hungarian
conservatives are true capitalists, unlike the confused  US pseudo-
conservatives who prefer a coctail of religious extremism and the purest
of anticapitalist corporatism and statism that would make Mussolini
and Khrushchev proud even though their religions were a little different."

But it would have sounded best (and would be universally valid) if you had
said:

"Real conservatives are true capitalists, unlike confused pseudo-
conservatives who prefer a coctail of religious extremism..."

Ferenc
+ - Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:31 PM 10/1/96 +0100, Lajos Monoki wrote:

>And now they payed 300.000.000 Ft a "lawyer"-adviser (some say it was
>850.000.000 Ft). Yes, 300 million forints (some 2 million dollars)! It was a
>one-time contract for a few days.
>
>BTW: nurses get about 15.000 ft/month. A nurse have to work 1666 years to
>get 300 million forints!
>
>Bye,

        I just returned from a week at a dog show, where there was not even
time to turn the TV on in the motel room. It was like living in total
vacuum. However, I took along a few Hungarian papers and read the earlier
stories on this latest fraud. I have the feeling that we have no real
inkling about the depth of this problem. The problem being corruption. Tip
of the iceberg, I think. And the trouble is that it is so terribly difficult
to get rid of, especially when it is so widespread.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-10-05 10:26:31 EDT,  (Joe
Szalai) writes:

<< At 10:56 PM 10/2/96 -0400, Marina E. Pflieger wrote:

 >In a message dated 96-10-02 14:06:49 EDT,  (_JELIKO)
 >writes:
 >
 ><snip>
 ><< As long as I have the right to publicly disagree, I have zero problem
with
 > other's right of saying what they think in public.
 >
 > Regards, Jeliko. >>
 >
 >How about when someone makes disparaging statements about you
 >and your country in public?

 Controlling it is more dangerous than ignoring it.

 Joe Szalai
  >>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
--------------------------
Joe,

You are absolutely correct. I did not make myself clear, what I meant was
that I could not possibly ignore what was said, I would have to repply.

Thanks,
Marina
+ - Forty years ago: Canada and the Hungarian revolution, p (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Day Eleven

Friday, 2 November 1956.
More Soviet forces poured into Hungary, sealed off Austrian border, cut
communications, took control of highways, airports, railways. Tass
complained of "counter-revolutionary activities" in Hungary. Nagy made
second appeal to UN.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)

        Once the anti-Communist nature of the Hungarian revolution became
obvious the Canadian political establishment espoused the work of the
Hungarian-Canadians on behalf of the freedom fighters. Public opinion in
Canada suddenly became most sympathetic. To the federal Liberal Party, in
particular, the Hungarian revolution suddenly became a political asset
since they wanted to distance themselves from the Anglo-French intervention
in Egypt.

        The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, J. Pickersgill,
sponsored a Hungarian delegation which wanted to have a hearing at External
Affairs.  In Toronto, Paul Hellyer conveyed an encouraging message to
Pearson much to the applause of local Hungarians.(2)  The Canadian Press
reported from Vienna that the RCAF North Star had delivered five tons of
Canadian Red Cross supplies to Budapest the previous night, adding that
"the flight, was personally authorized by Prime Minister St Laurent."(3
)The public praise that followed warmed the Liberals. The pro-Liberal
Montreal Star   was pleased to publish this letter to the editor:

Sir,  On behalf of the Hungarian-Canadians I extend our deepest gratitude
to External Affairs Minister Honorable Lester B. Pearson for his
spontaneous readiness to take our appeal to the Security Council of the
United Nations. For his generous act I promise to do everything that is in
my power to bring to the knowledge of all of Hungary, that we have found a
great man in the West, who was willing to help us in our struggle for his
name is never to be forgotten! [A] Hungarian.

        The same Friday afternoon issue of this paper headlined: "Red
Troops Pour Into Hungary".(4)

NOTES

(1)  NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

(2)Mary E. Macdonald to Mr. Day, Visit to Ottawa - Delegation of Canadian
Hungarian Federation, November 2nd, 1956, 10 a.m. Minister's Office, NAC,
RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40 pt.3; from November 1, 1956 to
November 7, 1956.

(3)The Montreal Star, 2 November 1956.

(4) Ibid.



Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Hungary,the thread. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I just finished reading one of the most illustrious person,newest attack
aginst this thread in the Forum.
He claims that all of the participant in this thread are distributing fals
and damaging rumors about there original country Hungary.
He would like if there would be a chance to close this thread down.Since he
tried it before and the result was negative,now he is advocating a stringent
moderator.
Please inform me who and what had been written about Hungary wich keeps this
guy harping about most of the paricipant in this list.I realise he has a
personal hatred against EB,since she is necer too shy to awnser
allegataions,but as far as I can see we have many other subject in our mind
than to "put down" Hungary.
It is realy not neccesery for us to do it,since some of those correspondent
are doing it themselves.
We are only observers,and went so far,that most of us are staying away from
the Forum.
I hope some others will be reading this article I am reffering to,and will
give me some guidinglight.
Udv:Andy
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo:

>>> Andras, do you really think it would have been possible to save all
>the
>>>Hungarian jews (or a large portion of them) with preserving their all
>>>civil rights and without any discrimination? Among those geopolitical
>>>circumstances and with a fictive ideal Hungarian government.

Gabor Farkas:

>>Well, there were cases where under worse geopolitical circumstances all
>the
>>Jews were saved. And when the Germans ordered the wearing of the yellow
>>stars, the whole country, including the royal family put it on.
>>
>>So, the answer is yes (as far as I am concerned).
>>
>>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>
>I agree.  Agnes

        The Hungarian political leadership wanted to have the cake and eat
it too. That was the problem. In addition there was a lack of courage.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Hungarian Heritage Network? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

During the 70s and 80s there was a little publication with the name of
"Hungarian Heritage Review," published by the Rakoczi Foundation, with
Paul Pulitzer as editor.

I really liked it, since it was intended for the likes of
us....Hungarians, a bit removed from our homeland, but with a genuine
interest in our roots and heritage.

The magazine struggled for a while, despite many contributions,
eventually and sadly, dying by some nefarious means at the beginning
of the of the 90s. I was reminded of it by a notice on this list about
Chef Louis Szatmary's passing, since he was a regular contributor with
his marvelous recipes.

>From the "Heritage" I learned about a Hungarian huszar who fought at
Alamo, about Brigadier General Huba Wass de Czege ("the
Hungarian-American Jedi Knight"), about Estee Lauder, etc. There were
articles about the contributions of Hungarians to the world of science
and arts, about history, about events in the States (sorry, folks, but
it was meant for American-Hungarians). Overall, with and
underdeveloped Internet and living in the South I had a "contact" with
things Hungarian.

Of course, the advent of the electronic media and the Net would have
probably made it obsolete anyway, but I miss it: there is something so
reassuring about holding a magazine in one's hands....

Is there is anything like it, to anyone's knowledge, out "there?"
Extant, I mean.

What was the background story on the Rakoczi Foundation?

Recently, I received a note from Istvan "Steve" Mihaly, who lives in
San Diego, and who is a translator in Hungary for the IFOR forces in
support of the Bosnia mission.

He says he is the the founder of the Hungarian American Heritage
Network.

Does anyone know anything about this fellow and what he is up to?

Bandi

P.S. Has anyone tried to teach an English-spekaing spouse or friend to
say:

 Ti, gyo:nyo:ru" gyerekek, gyertek ide gyorsan!

     or

Nagyon o:ru:lo:k hogy O:n nem O"ru"lt
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just kidding.... :-) :-)


> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Any quote for your last claim? Or is it just another nice
>piece of Sam Stowe's academic career building slanders
>(down on the pathway of ole goody Victor Farias  :-(  ) ?
>
>                                                Sz. Zoli

Farias's book on Heidegger and his Nazi affiliations was scrupulously
researched and documented. You favor me with an unintended accolade when
you compare me to him. Farias isn't the only academic to offer a
dispassionate, even-handed assessment of Heidegger's Nazi past. Anyone
with even a cursory academic interest in Heidegger runs into some pretty
good historiography on the subject almost as soon as they start looking --
people like George Steiner, Michael Zimmerman, Richard Wolin and many
others. It is the most pressing question facing historians who want to put
Heidegger's work into perspective. You would know that if you possessed a
fraction of the knowledge about Heideggers to which you presume.

Slander stems from intent and reckless disregard for the truth. That's why
I'll let you use it. It seems to be one of the few rhetorical devices
which you are intellectually suited to handle with any degree of comfort.
By the way, since you're such an intellectual snob, how does it feel to
have your ass kicked in front of everyone on this group on a regular basis
by a redneck with a bachelor's degree from a land grant university?
Sam Stowe

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, of course, it's too dark to read."
-- Groucho Marx
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>O.K. Sam, elo a farbaval! What is your college level
>understanding of national socialism? Is it national?
>Is it socialism? How does it relate to Mussolini,
>Rohm, Hitler, Horthy, Szalasi, Antonescu, Ceaucescu,
>Kadar, Pol Pot, Jaruzelski? Does it include the
>extermination of political or ethnic minorities? I
>know it is just a bunch of pure theoretical questions
>but sometime we have to be theoretical.
>
>                                            Sz. Zoli

No, sometimes we have to test the theoretical against the empirical real
world which theory would pretend to channel or "reform." So far in this
debate, you have done nothing but spout out received theory. I would only
undertake to educate you in the discrepencies between theory and reality
if I had assurances that a) you would pay full tuition (and it wouldn't be
cheap) and b) you would listen and try to understand. Since you are a poor
graduate student both economically and intellectually, you are obviously
incapable of fulfilling either prerequisite. You remain the only
college-educated adult in Christendom in the latter half of the 20th
Century who does not know what national socialism is. While most people
would be embarrassed by this distinction, you seem eager to revel in it.
That may be the most you are capable of doing given your willful ignorance
and arrogance. What's really sad is that you somehow expect your ritual of
self-humiliation to somehow provide entertainment and/or enlightenment for
the rest of us on this list. You have convinced me that you don't have the
first idea what you're talking about. The rest of your humbug amounts to
static.
Sam Stowe

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, of course, it's too dark to read."
-- Groucho Marx
+ - Szathmary Lajos (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

i am sad to announce the death of world reknowned Chef Louis Szathmary in
Chicago on October 4th after a brief illness. His contributions to the
Hungarian community included numerous publications, and selfless support of
all facets of social activities. Private funeral on Oct. 10. Memorial services
on the 24th. He will be missed.

janos


--
+ - Will to Power? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lately, one sees the phenomenon of a type of  zealot threatening the rest
of us" sinners" with the "wrath of God"on the pages of Hungary related
news groups too. These 'beacons of truth' claim  to have a direct hot-line
to the source. They are the good! They live exemplary lives, just ask their
 spouses, children! -(Or the IRS ?) Their interpretation of the Bible is the"
only truth"-
So they tell us. They know! The rest of us are in the dark! We must be
enlightened,
even if it harmful to us. It is for our own good!

Some of the responses conveyed pithy for these individuals. - on reflection
this is
deserved. There is a narrow mind, maybe a despondent childhood, history of
mental and \ or physical abuse and so on.

One has to be forgiving but careful. According to a line of thought, these
individuals,
consciously or subconsciously are motivated by the will to power.

If their world, the utopia of the "good and the just" would arrive, they would
be
quite happily the functionaries of this new world with the appropriate power.
They would ensure that the rest of us, by coercion if necessary,  live in
 accordance with their decrees. Of course, they would have extra privileges.
 After all the rules are for masses and since they" know better" and can not be
 corrupted, they can have some liberties.

Those who would dare to think, question and would desire to worship  an all
loving God, as most  of us do, or none at all,  would be punished, re-educated
 or worse.

Sounds familiar? If one is a student of history, then the answer is , yes.

The fanatic with the ambition for power is part of the human condition. They
come
 wearing the mantle of idealogy most fitting for the vulnerabilities of the
time.
Some are better educated and subtle, some are just hungry as reflected in
their wild eyes and intolerant rumblings- The hidden agenda is the same : Power
for
 themselves, subjugation for the rest.

When these self styled, modern day  Isten ostorai" pop out of the wood work
they should have every right to advocate their views as long as we maintain the
right
to reject them.  The electrons wasted  by the Netizens will not object and as
long as
is O.K. with the SYSOP..... well, who cares ?


                                      Mark O.F.
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>At 04:51 AM 10/2/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:
>>Yes, Ross Perot -- what a God-like man he is! <Snicker!> Actually, Joe,
>>I'm giving some thought to casting my votes for that pack of
>>nuts...STATESMEN, I mean statesmen, affiliated with the Maharishi. You
>>know the ones I'm talking about? If we could all meditate, we'd all be a
>>lot happier? And the sig is from Plato. Wonder if he had jug ears and a
>>Texas twang?
>
>Is that what they're called in the US?  Here they call themselves the
>Natural Law Party and they had candidates in every electoral riding in the
>last federal election.  And they got nowhere!  I guess the first time
>people encounter them they're interesting, like pet rocks.  I wouldn't be
>surprised if they had candidates in the next election in Hungary.  And I
>wouldn't be surprised if they did better there than here.

This Natural Law Party did the same thing over here (UK) at the last
general election, too.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
+ - Re: Canada and the Hungarian Revolution (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter ; At 11:36 AM 05/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear List Members:
>
>Would you care to comment on my Canada and 1956? Should I keep on posting
>the rest of the essay?
>
Hi There ! - I just fired up, your message is first .... I guess that this
means we're all back on line?  Yuppiee!!!

I cannot comment - I need all the info I can get my hands on!  But, I have
read, printed all and am ready to bound,  upon receipt of last part(s),
which I'm sure you'll make clear  - to go right alongside of "Ocean in a
Tear"  - properly to be distributed to my kiddos.   So, if the general
concensus ought to turn out to be ney, please at least, keep sending them to
me privately?

Best regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Not so, I have learned a lot and thanks everyone for the insight. I have also
found many net
sights discussing the historical background of the 19-century, but without the
live dialogue on
this list it is impossible to understand the true position of divers agendas.
In 30 years of
communism I have believed what was the official line regarding these questions.
In 18 years of
America I was preoccupied with making money. Now looking back I discover
between the lines an
unwritten history.

Albert Albu
---------------------------
Zsargo Janos wrote:
>
> Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>
> >As far as your last sentence is concerned, I find it objectionable. Are you
> >complaining about too many survivors? Or what do you mean?
>
> I wrote earlier:
>
> > Only the facts count, like the hungarian
> > authorities was involved in the deportations regardless of their average
> > 'humanity', or the hungarian jews were basicly in safety untill 1944
> >regardless the jewish laws. This all stuff about the details is good only
> >to cause more pains to the survivors.
> >(And it seems there are quite a few on this list.)
>
> What I ment:
>
> Csak a tenyek szamitanak, ugymint: a magyar hatosagok resztvettek a deporta-
> lasok vegrehajtasaban attol fuggetlenul, hogy milyen volt az atlagos 'huma-
> nitasuk', vagy a magyar zsidosag lenyegeben biztonsagban volt 1944-ig a zsi-
> dotorvenyektol fuggetlenul. Ez az egesz herce-hurca a deportalasok reszletei
> korul csak arra jo, hogy a tuleloknek tovabbi fajdalmat okozzon.
> (es ugy tunik van egynehany ezen a listan.)
>
> Egyszerubben kifejezve tehat, nem erdemes emlegetni, mivel csak felszaggatjuk
> a regi sebeket. (<- Ez csak magyarazat, nem volt benne az eredeti szovegbe.)
>
> Also you wrote:
>
> >Are you complaining about too many survivors?
>
> Are you serious?!?!?!?!? It is possible that my English is bad but so
> much!?
>
> J.Zs
+ - Canada and the Hungarian Revolution; part 12. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

DAY 12

Saturday, 3 November 1956.
With Soviet forces in Hungary now increased from original two divisions to
a reported seven or more divisions totalling 200,000 men and 4,600 tanks,
including three divisions deployed around Budapest, Hungarian General
Mal=E9ter began negotiations with Russian commander for withdrawal of all
Soviet troops. Maleter and colleageues subsequently reported arrested.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)

        That day the Canadian government became aware that the demise of
the Hungarian revolution was at hand. Jules L=E9ger, now in charge of East
European policy planning at External Affairs, reported to Pearson:

The Russians pulled out of Budapest. The entire Hungarian army and air
force went over to the rebels. It is still uncertain how much prestige or
authority this government has...the rebels are violently anti-Russian and
anti-Communist. Soviet armoured columns have entered from the USSR and
Roumania. Our military intelligence estimates Soviet strength in Hungary
has increased to at least three divisions. Armoured columns have closed off
the Austro-Hungarian border and telephone communications between Vienna and
Budapest appear to have been cut. The main airports, railways and highways
are said to be controlled by Soviet forces. Nagy is asking for UN support;
withdrawal from Warsaw Pact; neutrality; Our information is that the Warsaw
Pact had no provision for withdrawal...(2)

        The Canadian press  blamed not only the Russians but the West as
well. According to the LeDevoir  [Montreal] the Suez crisis stimulated
Moscow's reaction against de-Russification in Central Europe and the
Balkans. Now that the Russians had re-entered Budapest, the principal
victims of the aggression at Suez became the Hungarians.(3)  The Globe and
Mail  attacked the Americans, whose  "...short-sighted lethargy", wrote the
editors that Saturday, "has borne tragic fruit. Budapest is once again
ringed by Soviet steel...the Hungarian situation was shrugged off for some
future debate. By Tuesday the Middle East crisis had intervened. But there
was no dragging of feet by the U.S. State Department there." The
Canadian-Hungarian Kanadai Magyars=E1g  in its Saturday edition also blamed
the US and the West for not aiding Hungary. The connection between the Suez
crisis and Soviet intervention in Hungary was also considered in Ottawa.

         Jules L=E9ger believed the violent overthrow of the Nagy government
could have been prevented. He explained to Pearson on the eve of the second
Russian intervention that the Anglo-French defiance of the United Nations
will put Moscow in a stronger position to resist United Nations demands and
to insist on a measure of Soviet control. In his view, one of the most
disastrous consequences of the Middle East adventure became the chance
given to the Russians to regain at least partial control of their
satellites. In his view Moscow would not tolerate the division of their
Satellite empire, the loss of Hungary, and the turning of Hungary into an
anti-Soviet base of which the neutrality declared by Imre Nagy simply was
the first step. L=E9ger believed that it was not in the interests of the
Western powers to attempt to push things too fast in Eastern Europe,
athough the West, including Canada, was completely passive in the events
which had been played out in Budapest. L=E9ger also blamed the Hungarians fo=
r
severing their relations with the Russians too quickly after Moscow had
announced their willingness to renegotiate the basis of their relations
with  the Eastern European countries and their willingness to negotiate the
withdrawal of Soviet forces from Poland, Czechoslovakia and Romania all
before the Suez crisis really broke.  If it had been possible for the West
to take a diplomatic initiative at this time, this would have been the best
moment to announce NATO's willingness to negotiate the withdrawal of
Western forces from Germany in return for the withdrawal of Soviet forces
from Eastern Germany and all of Eastern Europe. The collapse of the Soviet
empire in Eastern Europe would have followed the withdrawal of Soviet
forces. The West would have gained a tremendous political victory. In any
case, some political initiative and support would clearly have been of
great moral and political aid to the Hungarians.(4)

        Escott Reid, Canadian High Commissioner to India and an admirer of
the Hungarian freedom fighters, also remained optimistic. In preparation
for the UN emergency session he practically demanded of his government that
"the Canadian delegation to the special session of the General Assembly
should immediately join with other delegations in pressing as hard as
possible for resolutions in respect of  the Soviet intervention in Hungary
[which would be] as strong as the resolutions on the intervention in Egypt
of Israel, the UK and France."(5)

        Belatedly, unaware that the death sentence of the Hungarian
revolution had been pronounced,  Tibor Barab=E1s, head of the Hungarian Trad=
e
Delegation, still in Montreal, began to act as a representative of the
revolutionary Nagy government. Commenting on the trade negotiations Barab=E1=
s
wrote to L=E9ger:

It is my most sincere hope that these talks can be regarded as the first
step to closer ties between our countries. On this occasion  may I assure
you that the Hungarian people will always appreciate the readiness of the
Canadian nation to alleviate the sufferings of our country in the present
struggle. We are also touched by the deep sympathy with which this nation
is watching our striving for democracy and independence.(6)

Indeed, democracy and independence, were the cornerstones of the
revolutionary Nagy government's programme by November 3, 1956.

        Meanwhile,  following appeals from the Nagy Government in Budapest,
the Security Council was again convened to consider a Western resolution
condemning Soviet military interference in the internal affairs of Hungary.
The resolution passed but was vetoed by the Soviet Union. The question of
Hungary was immediately referred to the second emergency special session of
the General Assembly which was to consider the same resolution on November
4th.(7)  The Globe and Mail  editorial writer reacted quickly: "The value
of debating the Hungarian uprising at the UN was not that the United
Nations could intervene in any physical way. The value was that the hard,
cold light of the world's indignation could be focused upon it. The
re-entry of tanks might have been, if only temporarily, forestalled. No
less important, Russia's shadow allies, the so-called neutral nations, were
spared the responsibility of stating their position firmly and
unequivocally." They neither denounced Russian colonialism nor dismissed it
as unimportant.  They considered the Hungarian problem a Russian domestic
or at most a European affair.(8)   Reid in New Delhi found this attitude
unacceptable and wanted to rally the moral opinion of the world against
Soviet colonialism in Eastern Europe. He asked Pearson to put India's
representative, Krishna Menon, on the spot at the General Assembly by
pressing hard on the Hungarian question immediately.(9)

        Hungarians in Toronto went farther. A crowd of 12,000 marched in
front of the Legislature where speeches were made demanding military
support for Hungary. Ontario Attorney General Roberts  suggested that NATO
should send an army to Hungary.(10)

        Meanwhile, Pearson informed the cabinet that  the Russians were now
occupying Hungary and were showing the true character of their regime.(11)
At External Affairs, L=E9ger began preparing the East European segment of
Pearson's speech to be delivered the next day, November 4, at a special
session of the United Nations' General Assembly. L=E9ger thought that Pearso=
n
should say the following:

 I hope that the Soviet leaders will recognize the need to grant freedom
and equality to the peoples of Eastern Europe. They have said in a
statement from Moscow that they are prepared to re-negotiate their
relations with Eastern Europe on this basis.  The re-entry of Soviet troops
in force into Hungary is certainly a poor augury of this, and I should like
to make a plea to the Soviet leaders to respect the rights of the Hungarian
people, and to honour that statement.(12)

(1) NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

(2)Jules Leger's memorandum for the Minister; Situation in Hungary, 3
November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86/87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40, part 3: from
November 1, 1956 to November 7, 1956.

33 November 1956.

(4)Jules Leger's memorandum for the Minister; Situation in Hungary, 3
November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86/87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40, part 3: from
November 1, 1956 to November 7, 1956.

(5)Escott Reid from New Delhi to External Affairs, 3 November 1956, NAC, RG
25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40 pt.3; from November 1, 1956 to November
7, 1956.

(6)Barabas Tibor, Head of the Hungarian Trade Delegation, Montreal, to
Jules L=E9ger, Ottawa, 3 November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File
8619-40 pt.3; from November 1, 1956.

(7)3 November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86/87/336, vol.152, File 5475-dw-51-40, vol.=
1.

(8)3 November 1956.

(9)E. Reid, New Delhi to External Affairs, 3 November 1956, NAC, RG 25,
86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40, pt.3; from November 1, 1956 to November 7,
1956.

(10)Kanadai Magyars=E1g,  10 November 1956.

(11)Cabinet Conclusions November 3rd, 1956 NAC, RG 2,  Vol. 5775, Canada
Cabinet conclusions, Top Secret, Vol.51, 3 Aug. 1956-3 Nov. 1956.

(12)J.L.'s suggestions to L.B. Pearson for his speech (East European part),
3 November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40 pt.3; from
November 1, 1956 to November 7, 1956.
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Lajos Pelikan wrote:

> Why do you Christians label people "Godless" simply because they don't
> believe in your perception of God?
<<<<< Christians' perception of God is not the issue, the issue is
whether or not those laws that have been stated in the bible or the Koran
or elsewhere are being obeyed. Moroever, it seems for sure that MANY
responding are unbelievers that a God exists in the first place!  I am
just hoping to alret those that are potentially open to at least think
about God and the way the universe was created and how it is to function
to its design.  While my perception of God is in part different from
yours or those of other Christians even, it does not prevetn me from
believing in God.

So far everything that I have stated is from existing documents and
beliefs.  If one bother to read the Judeo Christian-Islam "bibles" and
then also bothers to read the other religious douicmentations one can
clearly see that many of the BBS memebrs' perception are in contrast to
what is suggested.

Moreover, there are many in the various religious organizations
(churches) that have corrupted the actual documentations meanings and
intents whioch are clearly defined.  It is much easier to ignore the
truth thatn to find it.


> Peter, why do you automatically assume whatever Zoltan quotes?  If Rev.
> Kennedy is telling the truth about any existing public school, would it
> be an extreme hardship for him to name the actual school(s).  You people
> have to be smarter than just simply believe what others claim.
>
<<<<<<<<  That is an assumption on your part. In fact I have hear similar
things from other sources (religious and otherwise) .. I have only seen
Dr. Kennedy's sermon rarely.  Perhaps it may behoove you and other to
start asking questions about just what exactly is going on in the school
systems in the USA (probabaly Canada, Australia, UK<etc.).

Peter Soltessz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr. Pelican says:
Religion may well be about God and Love, but churches appear to be more
about power and control.  I believe that's the main reason Jesus was
executed.  He was showing the people that they can "reach God" without
relying on the Temple.  So was the Inquisition an effort of the church
to eliminate those that offered an alternative perspective to the common
people.  Before the zealots label me a traitor (because I am one of
those that like to think and not rely solely on what people with titles
tell me), I have to add that to believe in God, one does not have to
belong to or conform to a church.

One more thing.  Blind faith in another human's words may lead you right
off the right track.  One good example for that is the PTL.
<<<<

I agree with Lajos on this item. One should not believe all that one sees
or hears from the papers etc. Moreover, there shold not be bl;ind faith
in anything but be objective. One will eventually get to something that
is close to the truth. The problem is that over the many centuries since
BC many things were changed, omitted, or added to the original texts.
Peter
+ - FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:40:08 PDT
From: _JELIKO >
To: 
Subject: FW: Rejected posting to 

You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY
list  from  your
 account.  You might be authorized  to send to
the  list from
another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail
 program which
generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way
 to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance
or if you have
any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please
contact the list
owners: .

------------------------ Rejected message (44 lines)
--------------------------

Marina E Pflieger writes:


> In a message dated 96-10-02 14:06:49 EDT, 
(_JELIKO)
> writes:

> <snip>
> << As long as I have the right to publicly disagree, I have
zero problem
with
>  other's right of saying what they think in public.

>  Regards, Jeliko. >>

> How about when someone makes disparaging statements about you
> and your country in public?

Certainly, they have the right to make disparaging statements
about me or
my country. This is not a dictatorship or a restricted democracy
like
France where one can get a jail sentence for disparaging
statements about
the their president.

And I have the rights avaiable to me to respond in an appropriate
manner if
I have so chosen.

Regards,Jeliko.
PS. You obviously were not participant in some of <soc culture
romanian> or
<bit listserv slovak> debates of some time ago. Bozgor was about
the
kindest thing said by some.
----- End of Forwarded Message
+ - FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:40:32 PDT
From: _JELIKO >
To: 
Subject: FW: Rejected posting to 

You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY
list  from  your
 account.  You might be authorized  to send to
the  list from
another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail
 program which
generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way
 to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance
or if you have
any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please
contact the list
owners: .

------------------------ Rejected message (33 lines)
--------------------------

To whom it may concern:

I was notified today that my current dial up service will cease
their
program on the 7th of Oct. So on Sunday I will send in my
unsubscribe
notice to the newsgroup.

Considering that I will be away from the home base the second
half of
October and overseas the most of November, I may not resubscribe
to the
group for some time.

I have enjoyed some of the discussions and read some of them with
a large
grain (more like boulder) of salt.From many of you I have learned
about
personalities, ideas and even history. For the time being I have
only a few
parting words: the other person is also a human being. Even if I
do
resubscribe in the future, I will post to the group my new
private email
address.

Regards,Jeliko.

----- End of Forwarded Message
+ - FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko has asked me to forward five of his rejected messages,
                                                         Amos

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:39:37 PDT
From: _JELIKO >
To: 
Subject: FW: Rejected posting to 

You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY
list  from  your
 account.  You might be authorized  to send to
the  list from
another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail
 program which
generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way
 to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance
or if you have
any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please
contact the list
owners: .

Aniko Dunford writes:

> At 04:31 PM 02/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Command response for Aniko re the text below:

> First and foremost - my sincere apologies to the addressed
individuals.
It
> was truly not my intent to "demand" a/any response.
> >
> Secondly, thank you Jeliko for your wise, well thought out
posting.
While I
> appreciate and agree with most of what you say, I cannot see
eye to eye
with
> your statement as below:

The world would be a dull place if we all agreed on everything!

> >So, I do believe, that Zoli Szekely has the right to say the
things he
> >says, regardless of being a guest, or who finances his
education, or
what
> >his political affiliation is.

> Visiting a foreign country is generally by choice these days.
Making a
> choice to move there for whatever reason also.  After settling,
when one
> recognizes the lack of personal benefits by being in that
country, or
worst
> realizes that being there, violates their morals, code of
ethics et al,
one
> has available choices.  With the choice to remain, come
responsibilites.
> Main of which in my opinion is the responsibility to accept and
to
realize
> their position for what it is, & as such conduct themselves
accordingly.
 In
> my opinion, being "just a guest by choice" does not under any
circumstance
> mean "equal access to the rights of  that country's
contributing
citizens".
> (even in legal terms, I believe that they would fall under the
jurisdiction
> of their country of birth).  Failing the ability of such guests
to accept
> responsibility for their choice, they should have the common
sense to
simply
> pack up and quietly return to their own home - where your
philosophy
would
> be most acceptable to me.  In their own country, where they are
no longer
> guests, but hopefully contributing citizens to society at large
- I have
no
> problems with self expression and/or  freedom of speech.

I certainly will not give a legal interpretation of their rights
to
expressing whatever they are esposing. Please remember that the
US had
"vistors" even many years ago who also wrote some disparaging
notes about
the folks here. It did not result in any reprecussions. Also,
there is a
right and there is a selfcontrol and polity which one is suppose
to have.
If I recall correctly in Hungarian the expression was "Latszik
hogy nem
volt gyerekszobaja" when it was lacking which in fact had nothing
to do
with the actual room, but related to manners or rather the lack
of them.

Please note that the above is not related to agreeing with what
is being
said. Those who dish it out should not be upset when they get
their serving
in return.

> With regards to funding  - generally speaking, (since I have
not received
a
> specific answer to my question) such students are either self
financed,
> sponsored by a corporation, a non-profit organization, the
hosting
country's
> government(in other words, the taxpayers), or a private
individual.  In
> isolated cases, any combination of the last four could apply.

> In any of these cases, save the first, I strongly feel, that
the
benefactors
> ought to at the least conduct themselves in a manner, which
would be
> acceptable to their sponsor(s) - since upon acceptance of such
benefits,
> they become "chosen" representatives - diplomats if you will of
the
sponsor(s).
> >

Well, in this particular case, not being the sponsor, I cannot
comment
whether the speakers are "chosen" representatives or not. Or if
the
sponsors care about this aspect of their conduct. Or maybe more
succinctly
they have the right to sponsor anyone they care. If I have a bone
to pick
with ideas expoused on the net, I have to fight the ideas and not
the
sponsors. I have seen many competitions for scholarship where
political or
social ideas were not included.


> >As long as I have the right to publicly disagree, I have zero
problem
with
> >other's right of saying what they think in public.

> Well stated....but as always, there exceptions to every rule.
The above
> would be my exception.  And most likely it results from "being
a victim
of
> my own past experience". (A statement of yours, which I found
quite
> prophetic(sp) ... thanks)

Sure there are exceptions to many rules. But the exceptions are
often taken
very subjectively which does not further the discussed issue.

Regards,Jeliko.
----- End of Forwarded Message
+ - Re: Your God!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, DANUBE wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> > First let me state that I find it quite interesting that both Aniko
> > Dunford and Marina Pflieger (both Canadians) have fallen from being
> > god fearing people.
>
>   You can have your fear inducing, revengeful, and punishing God. If
>   I had to choose, I would go with the loving, caring,  and peaceful
>   God. Your faith must be very shaky though.  Otherwise you wouldn't
>   need to waste  all this time and  energy to prove  how strong your
>   faith is. How sad!!! I realize that thinking is difficult, but why
>   don't you try it. You may even like it.
<<<< How do you if it is a waste? Perhaps for you Mr. DANUBE it is. I do
not have top prove what my faith is. I was responding to those who deny
that there is a god or have totally abandoned it.

As far as thinking, your insults do not bother me at all. I can assure
you that my faculties and capacity are more than sufficient for most
things that I need.  It is easy to try to place me in the the typical
liberal approach of being an extremeist.....the only reason that you do
that is becauseyou have no thinking rational response to give!

>
> >                        Please do not tell my kids (or any kids for that
> > matter) that they should know about killing others nor themselves -- it
> > is WRONG!
>
>   What a hypocrite you are. If you are so concerned about life, what
>   is your stand on capital punishment? You and your ilk support life
>   selectively, when it serves your purpose.But you gleefully applaud
>   killing people you disapprove of.  And in the case of capital pun-
>   ishment you are not whining about  "my money is being spent on the
>   killing of people".
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<
What is your stand? I stand with what the bible said. There are sitations
where someone  who committed certain crimes have been executed and should be.
It should be on a very restricted basis though.

> > But there is a cost! YOU will find out one day the wrath of GOD...
>
>   I really pity you!
<<<<<<< Here is another one of those liberal BS. Please pithy yourself!
It is you that will. I tell you something that I believe in and all you
can say is that you pithy me??? Look at yourself --- I do n hope that one
day you will find out for yourself. No matter what I say, I have only a
little chance to influence you and your types. But at elast I try. You
appera to have given up in living the way it has been presribed.

<SNIP> > >
This is part of your comment to George - > >
> > <<<<< You should not be astonished at us but rather you...perhaps it is
> > being upside down in the hot sun that is cause of your problems.
>
>   I would be ashamed if this was the best I could do. But, it seems,
>   you don't have any shame.
>
> > One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
> > America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
> > to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
> > WE are!
> >
> > Peter Soltesz
> >
>   Really? We know what you are. An intolerant person who is unable to
This is part of your comment to George - > >
> > <<<<< You should not be astonished at us but rather you...perhaps it is
> > being upside down in the hot sun that is cause of your problems.
>
>   I would be ashamed if this was the best I could do. But, it seems,
>   you don't have any shame.
>
> > One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
> > America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
> > to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
> > WE are!
> >
> > Peter Soltesz
> >
>   Really? We know what you are. An intolerant person who is unable to
>   think for himself.
>                          Amos
<<<<<<<<<<<Actually Mr. DANUBE I am not intolerant. If you bothered to
read all of my postings. I believe that you can do lots of things and
tolerate much more thatn many people I have seen or heard of including you!

All I am asking and stating that if you want something from the
government then it better be something that I also approve of, else get
it and pay for it yourself!  Do not ask me to perform and support or
subsidize things that are wrong in my belief, el;se you will not succeed.
+ - FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:40:56 PDT
From: _JELIKO >
To: 
Subject: FW: Rejected posting to 

You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY
list  from  your
 account.  You might be authorized  to send to
the  list from
another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail
 program which
generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way
 to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance
or if you have
any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please
contact the list
owners: .

------------------------ Rejected message (34 lines)
--------------------------

Peter I Hidas wtites:
> Dear List Members:

> Would you care to comment on my Canada and 1956? Should I keep
on posting
> the rest of the essay?

> Sincerely,

> Peter

Please do!

While I have arrived there on Dec 4, 1956, and had only a limited
chance to
understand what went on before, so far, what you have compiled
seems to
reinforce what I knew or suspected, i.e. that the Canadian, and
most
western governments had woefully limited understanding of the
Soviet block.

Regards,Jeliko.
----- End of Forwarded Message
+ - FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:41:23 PDT
From: _JELIKO >
To: 
Subject: FW: Rejected posting to 

You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY
list  from  your
 account.  You might be authorized  to send to
the  list from
another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail
 program which
generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way
 to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance
or if you have
any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please
contact the list
owners: .

------------------------ Rejected message (30 lines)
--------------------------

Lajos Pelikan writes:

> While I am neither a liberal nor a conservative ( somewhere
in-between),
> it sure appears that it is the conservative that try very hard
and
> stubbornly to force everybody else to live by their
conservative
> standards.  I guess they think they do the others a favor.

I beg your pardon. I am a conservative person, I respect other
people and
their rights, I want governments, churches and even many people
to stay out
of my life. You would do me a favor by not ascribing new meanings
to
conservatism.

Regards,Jeliko.

----- End of Forwarded Message
+ - HU-AM Coalition and National Security (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

HUNGARIAN AMERICAN COALITION
MEETS WITH DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT
FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS SAMUEL R. BERGER

Sixteen Hungarian American leaders met with Samuel R. Berger,
Deputy Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs on Friday,
September 28, 1996.  Marshall Adair, Deputy Assistant Secretary of
State for Central Europe, Daniel Fried, Senior Director for East Central
Europe at the National Security Council, James Holmes, Coordinator
for Eastern European Assistance, and Marilyn DiGiacobbe, Associate
Director of the White House Office of Public Liaison also attended the
one and a half hour meeting.

Hungarian American representatives included:
Mrs. Kathleen Avvakumovits; Mrs. Anne C. Bader;
Rt. Rev. Imre Bertalan, Chairman of the Board; Mr. Laszlo Bojtos;
Mr. Frank Dobos; Mr. George Dozsa; Mr. Robert Gabor;
Mr. Laszlo Hamos; Mr. Frank Kapitan; Frank Koszorus, Jr, Esq.;
Mr. Peter J. Kurz; Mrs. Edith K. Lauer; Prof. Andrew Ludanyi;
Dr. Daniel F. McDonald; Eugene Megyesy, Jr, Esq.;
and Mr. Julius Varallyay.

In his opening remarks Mr. Berger stressed the Administration's
commitment to NATO expansion and the positive impact the
Coalition's views have had on the evolution of this policy.
Edith Lauer, President of the Coalition, noted the deep commitment
of the Hungarian American community to democracy and stability
in Central and East Europe.  She expressed the Coalition's view
that Hungary should be included in NATO in the first tier.
Ms. Lauer urged Administration officials to articulate an
even-handed policy to serve U.S. geopolitical interests in the region.

Frank Koszorus, Jr, then addressed the confluence of events which
have left the impression that the Administration's policies have tilted
against the Hungarian minorities, beginning with the State Department
spokesman's overreaction to the Hungarian Summit of July 5, 1996,
particularly as it related to the democratically asserted requests of the
Hungarian minorities to enjoy cultural autonomy and local self-government.

Eugene Megyesy, Jr,  reflected on the reported pressure from the
Administration on Hungary to accede to the dilution of the Council
of Europe's Recommendation 1201 and called upon the
Administration to monitor Romania's implementation of the
provisions of the Basic Treaty.

Anne Bader urged the targeting of U.S. assistance to minorities in
order to strengthen the role of minority institutions in democracy-
building in the region.

Andrew Ludanyi focused on the recent Washington Post op-ed
article by Ambassadors Blinken and Moses that contains
egregious historical inaccuracies and overstates the significance
of the Basic Treaty.

Laszlo Hamos then objected to the meeting of U.S. government
officials with the ultranationalist, virulently anti-Hungarian,
anti-Semitic Mayor of Cluj (Kolozsvar), Gheorghe Funar.
Mr. Hamos recommended that the Administration propose
legislation for monitoring the provisions of the Basic Treaty.

In responding to the points raised by the Coalition representatives,
Mr. Berger acknowledged Hungary's progress in fulfilling the
requirements for consideration for NATO membership.
Furthermore he agreed with the Coalition's position that each
country seeking NATO membership should be evaluated on its
own merits.

Regarding the Hungarian minorities, Mr. Berger and Mr. Fried
stated that the U.S. has assumed the obligation to press Romania
and Slovakia to fully comply with the Basic Treaties.  They added that
the
treatment of minorities in Central Europe, including Slovakia and Romania,
remains a priority issue that this Administration will continue to pursue.

On the question of targeting U.S. assistance programs to minorities
and their institutions, Mr. Holmes suggested that the Coalition submit
specific proposals for his consideration.

The Coalition representatives made several concrete proposals
concerning how the Administration might clarify its position relative
to the Hungarian minorities, and to dispel the widely held perception
that U.S. policy has tilted away from promoting human and minority
rights in Central Europe.  These proposals included:

An active monitoring mechanism for the implementation of
bilateral treaties, including but not limited to fact-finding missions
and publicly available reports;  Implementation of U.S. assistance
programs targeting minority institutions and minorities;
Clarification of U.S. policy on minority rights, including the public
recognition that Council of Europe Resolution 1201 and Western
European practices are acceptable models for addressing Central
and East European minority issues;
Reaffirmation of Washington's traditional policy of supporting
self-determination, or at least not opposing democratically asserted
requests for cultural autonomy and local self-government;
Unequivocal U.S. support for NATO's expansion, including the
establishment of a definite time table, concrete criteria for
acceptance, and evaluation of each country on its own merits;
Regular consultations between U.S. Embassy in Budapest
(and Bucharest) with leadership of opposition and minorities
to avoid misunderstandings of important issues in the future;
and Copies of President Clinton's recent letters to Prime Minister
Horn and Iliescu.  Participants of the meeting agreed to continuing
the dialogue regarding matters of interest to the
Hungarian American community.

_______________________________________
For more information please contact the
Hungarian American Coalition's Washington office:
818 Connecticut Ave., NW, Ste 850,
Washington, DC  20006.
Tel:  (202) 296-9505,  Fax: (202) 775-5175

<< Submitted by Peter Soltesz >>
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> The bible was written about 3,500 years ago, in a completely different
> society and in a different climate.  Many people tried to explain its
> rules - these explanations are called the Talmud.  Many rules were
> revolutionary and modern in those times - eg. making one day of the week
> a rest day for everybody.  However, it doesn't make too much sense today,
> in this sedentary society for an orthodox Jew, who sits in his office the
> entire week, to sit at home and not do anything on the Shabbat because he
> is not supposed to travel, etc.  What I am trying to say is that we can't
> live our everyday lifes according to obsolete and ancient rules -
> although some do and therefore believe that they are decent people,
> although in many aspects they are definitely not.
>
> Agnes
>
<<<<<<<< I agree with most of what tyou said Agnes:
The fact is that people often miss the essence of the point and grab onto
little things. Of ocurse Orthodox jew should be able to turn on the light
or travel --- one needs to understand where those restrictions came from!
In the "old" days it was LABOR to make fire/light! It was labor to travel
aywhere! -- The intent of the Sabbath is to REST and relax and think of
God as well!

Similarly, I think that there is great difference between preventing
conception and abortion (unlike the Catholic church). I am strongly
against abortion, but I am not against prevention of conception.

Also (I am answering a previous message from someone stated that we are
arguing about where life begins).
In fact I was talking about Partial Birth Abortions and we were not
trying to define where life begins (In vitero or ex).

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, aheringer wrote:

> Oh, my!  We are having fundamentalist missionaries here now!  So far I am
> concerned, God save us from the religious, no matter of which one!  Look
> what they are doing to Israel!  It will not be the Arabs, but the
> religious Jews who will ruin it!  Look at the moslem fundamentalists! And
> look back to the days of the inquisition!  Freedom of religion means also
> freedom from religion.  I know scores of very decent, good agnostics vs.
> many rotten ones who claim they are religious!
>
> Agnes
>
<<<< I agree in principle that many ultra orthodox, extremeists have
caused problems are continuing to defiy Gods love, etc.
However, theitem that Agnes brought up ---Israel/Arabs....pray tell why
should the Arabs care about the tunnel in a place that the jesw were long
before the Arabs ever had their "holy" site built or recognized???
They were there first, they claimed it first! This is not even a
religious issue. It is an excuse to have the fighting go on -- iot is
political BS.

I also agree that the Inquisition was totally wrong, as was the crusades,
etc. There were more people killed in the name of GOD (or pseudo religions)
than for any other cause!  All I ask is that everone ought to read the
bible and make their own judgements or research. Do not rely on what the
"officials" state (whether it be a priest, rabbi, etc.) The problemis
that too many blindly follow leaders who are corrupt (or have corrupted)
the original meaning, context of the word.

Prya tell, why do many in Islam hate Christians or Jew??? it makes no sense!
Especially since they "originated" from Judaism (consider Jesus as a
prophet, like Mohammed). They used to freely accept all those who
believed n Moses, Jesus etc. What went wrong??? Ask the BASIC questions.
{I may propose that the zealots {and I am not one} have warped the word!
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Peter,
>
> I agree with you in your posting to Andy that the U.S. was founded by
 religious
> men, but they did endorse a *separation* of Church and State.  Actually, we
> probably need a historian or government studies major for this, but
 historically
> the founding fathers where very aware of religious wars in Europe and paranoi
a
> against the Papists in America. This separation of Church and State was very
> innovative.
>
> If religions get an official hold in the public arena, then churchs
> better be ready to be good citizens for once and pay their taxes!!!
<<<<< I agree, nowhere did I state that there should be an offcial or
endored religion, actually to the contrary!. However, I do not see
anything wrong with having a prayer (regardless of your religion)
In the 60's and 70s there was always either a prayer time or a time of
silence before school as I understand it.  I do not have a problem with
having other religions being talked about in school.  In the long run it
will probably allow one to "chose" or at least know the other perpective
/ beliefs so that we can understand each other better!
Peter
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

<SNIP>


On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, aheringer wrote:

> >Who do you think you are - - who made you king, god, the messiah
> >that you are "alerting" us to mend our ways.

<<<< Like any good Christian, Jew, or Muslim one needs to let others know
if you are aginast the rules of God. Whether or not you like it.
How would you feel if your mother was playing the chicken and the egg
game with you?  I guess you would not be here now perhaps>????
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996  wrote:
<SNIP>

> Wow! Peter your last para got me worried. Please disclose
> "something that many already know about the Uk, America ..."
>
> Is it about the space people running for elections disguised as
> liberal pinkos? But more than that, Please, please tell
> us "who and what WE are". One can not bear the suspense, especially
> if one already has an identity crisis or a beer belly.
>
> Will remain
>                      Mark O.F.
>

Iwill have to hold you in suspense alittle longer:

But here is the first question:

Does anyone out there (addressed to Anglo types only) where the 13 tribes
of Israel are?? Does anyone know what the current State of Israel is in
terms of the Biblical Israel??

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
<SNIP>
> Now than, (I am getting a bit of impatient with you....), can you tell me how
>     you have determined that Aniko and me  "have fallen thusly wherein.....
>     have no longer any fera (nor respect for God, life and humanity)."
> [direct quote]
>     How dare do you call us some "fallen thusly wherein" - - with no fera
> yet?
>     I want you to know, that I have all the fera I need. I can't speak for
<<<<<<<<<<
I do not need to dare....it is written inthe bible, and if you fail to
keep the commandments and act acording to the the bible or if you
advocate things that are not only agaionst the bible and the law then by
their definitions alone you are!
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, DANUBE wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> > Marks comments are interestin, yet do not completely tell the story(ies)
> > that have to do with suicide.
> >
> > Yes you are correct that Hungarians have the highest Suicide rate in the
> > world!!! Ouch!!
> >
> > Is it the Hungarian mentality, the despondence of the communist system,
> > the hopelessness, the drunkennes, et al???
>
>   Hungary had one of the highest, if not the highest, suicide rate
>   way before the communists. Stop avoiding reality!
>
> >                     ALL people need help at times, some much more than
> > others. We all get to those periods where everyhting seems to go wrong.
> >
>
>   Unfortunately, you need it more than most.
>                                               Amos
>
<<<<<<<<<< Being nasty does not make you right. In fact YOU do not know
what you are talking about: Here is quote form the Worl Health
Organizations lates information that may shock you!


   Suicide claimed the highest rate of victims among men in Hungary,
   Finland, Russia, Lithuania, Latvia and Kazakhstan in that order, while
   the lowest rates were recorded in Armenia, Greece, Mexico and southern
   Brazil. The countries with the highest incidence of suicide among
   women were: Hungary, Singapore, Denmark, Belgium and Finland, while
   the lowest were Mexico, Greece, Costa Rica, Chile and Armenia.

The problem is still prevalent in Hungary (perhaps hungarians as well)
and this is the latest report. The list is in the highest order first!
Guess where Hungary is????
+ - Re: Thank You (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear MArk:
Thank you for taking the time for letting others know.  It was nice of oyu!
The problem I see with this type of forum is that everyone seems to jump
on evryone else with waht appears to be narrow views.
There is not enough time to articultae and read..People have become
Internet e-mail junkies! They only want quickie sound bytes and do not
want to expend the effort required to read, think, nor understand.  It is
much more fun to jump on people than to think. Everyone appears to be
looking for blood.
This is not meant for you Mark).
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thnak you George Szaszvari for a well reasoned comment on the Suicide issue.
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 10:53 AM 10/3/96 EDT, Mark Humphreys, responding to Peter Soltesz, wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >With so many schools in America, you can find some weird person somewhere
> >teaching odd things to others, but why jump the gun and say the whole system
> >is collapsing and all the schools are conspiring to do the same thing???
>
> Fear, above all else, but also, hatred, decay, and visions of Armageddon are
> his motivational tools.  Without them he would be lost.  How sad!

If one does not wish to recognize the above then at least give me the
privildge of letting people know what is happening. You know that one can
be killed very easily by slowy increasing the temperature of the water
their are bathing in wihtout the subject knowing it!!! Which seems to be
happening to a lot of people lateley (allegorically speaking -- just in
case you did not follow that)

Peter
+ - Re: Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing Amer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, George Antony wrote:

> Peter Soltesz wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> Well, we must be doing something right if you find our political sytem
> objectionable.  It is also comforting to know that you are safely out
> of this country without having left your mark on it.  At least the number
> of native-grown Queensland politicians sounding as incoherent as you
> seems to be if anything on the decline.  In other part of Australia we
> even have politicians who profess a mixture of social tolerance and
> some hard-nosed and rational economic direction: may they proliferate.
<<<<<<<<<<  You obviously did not get the point. Perhaps we do not speak
the same language.

> The problem is that you have no idea about economics beyond the most
> simplistic tabloid headlines and even then you are fundamentally confusing
> the economic stand of your heroes with that of your perceived enemies.


<<<< Maybe they teach economics in Tabloids in Australia, but here we
take college course. Let me assure you that I am well qualified.

>
<< SNIP>>>
>
> Wow, that promise sounds more like a threat, not too far off the Day of
> Judgement.  I can hardly wait.
>
> George Antony
>
Too bad that George thinks that everything is a threat. It is not it is
just a statement of fact. More info will be forthcoming. Answer my
previous post. Thanx. Peter
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello,

I really enjoyed many of the comments by Agnes and Lajos and the other Mark
(O.F.).

I have not read all of the backlog of postings, but Peter S. wrote:

" One should not believe all that one sees
 or hears from the papers etc. Moreover, there shold not be bl;ind faith
 in anything but be objective. One will eventually get to something that
 is close to the truth. The problem is that over the many centuries since
 BC many things were changed, omitted, or added to the original texts."
 Peter

Peter, this sounds very reasonable, but it is confusing when I read this
and compare it to such postings where you, for example, mention Marina and
Aniko and the wrath of God. Some of your judgements upon others simply sound
much more subjectively based than objective. How could we know their interpre-
tations of things are less valid than yours? They seem like fairly objective
people to me. You seem to place blind faith in this one document, the bible.
A document to which many of its originals are lost. Also, do you read Ancient
 Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic?  Again, if these word of 'god' are supposed to be s
o
 clear, which is the true Hebrew creation myth?  The Priestly version or
the Yahwistic one ????

You talk of living according to laws of the bible, yet when others bring up
valid points against this, you also agree with them and say we should interpret
 its essence. However, everyone has different views with which to interpret
 them.
So where does the picking and choosing start? Who will be chosen to do the
picking and the judging? If there were a god, it would be better to simply
leave the judging to it.  How do you know someone would displease this god?
It embraced the whore Mary Magdalene, supposedly enlisted the services of Saul
the murderer, it's even been rumored that one (atleast) of the apostles was
a gayboy, wasn't St. Francis of Assisi a spoiled, rich brat...?

Finally, may I repeat: What is so enviable about this biblical society?  The
wars, the incest, offering of daughters to strangers, slavery...?

Why are you adressing the question about the 13 tribes of Isael specifically
to Anglos? That's interesting. I wish I had an answer for you.

You mentioned abortion again. I feel the life of the mother is just as impor-
tant as that of the unborn baby.  If it becomes a grave danger for a woman to
 have a child, I do not judge her for wanting to save her life.  If there were
a god, I'm sure it's will would probably be stronger than a woman's decision
to terminate the pregnancy.  If it is the will of this god that the child be
born, than I wonder if the child would eventually appear somewhere where it
would be more loved and welcomed.

This weekend anti-choice protesters asked me: What if you were aborted, or
Mozart or George Washington?   Well, these fantasy games serve no purpose.
I asked them in return:  Well, what if Hitler or Stalin were aborted???

You sounded upset when you say "liberals" try to label conservatives as bad
people, but think how they feel when they are labeled as having "fallen from
god" or as deserving of god's wrath....  Isn't damnation (or rather anger) by
 god for some more serious that names and labeling? (Anyway, I know atheists wh
o
 are 'conservative,' so we should clearly define liberal and conservative.)

Well, I'm glad we're all back on line.
Ciao,
Mark
+ - Re: Hungary and environment (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:47 AM 10/2/96 -0400, Elizabeth Holden wrote:
>     Kedves mindenki!
>
>I'm looking for opinions about the current state of the environment in
>Hungary.  How would you describe the environmental movement since 1990?
>What are the major problems facing Hungary's environmental activists?
>What is the prognosis?
>
>Koszonom!

        There is a separate list just on the environment--in Hungarian. If
you can handle the language you ought to look into it: 
is the way to subscribe.

        Otherwise, I just read something that the minister who is
responsible for environmental issues did something awful, like changing the
status of a protected area. I will try to find the reference for you and
publish it on this list in a few days.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
<SNIP>
> I have not read all of the backlog of postings, but Peter S. wrote:

<<<< I was holding a national conference for consultants and engineers
the past 3 days and could not get to the net. I tried to answer as many
(hopefully in the right sequence)

> > " One should not believe all that one
sees
>  or hears from the papers etc. Moreover, there shold not be bl;ind faith
>  in anything but be objective. One will eventually get to something that
>  is close to the truth. The problem is that over the many centuries since
>  BC many things were changed, omitted, or added to the original texts."
>  Peter
>
> Peter, this sounds very reasonable, but it is confusing when I read this
> and compare it to such postings where you, for example, mention Marina and
> Aniko and the wrath of God. Some of your judgements upon others simply sound
> much more subjectively based than objective. How could we know their interpre
-
> tations of things are less valid than yours? They seem like fairly objective
> people to me. You seem to place blind faith in this one document, the bible.
> A document to which many of its originals are lost. Also, do you read Ancient
>  Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic?  Again, if these word of 'god' are supposed to be
 so
>  clear, which is the true Hebrew creation myth?  The Priestly version or
> the Yahwistic one ????
>
<<<< No Mark I do not read ancient languages used in the bible, but I
know several people that do! I also read what they have to say on
interpretation of the language and the Bible.

> You talk of living according to laws of the bible, yet when others bring up
> valid points against this, you also agree with them and say we should
 interpret
>  its essence. However, everyone has different views with which to interpret
>  them.
> So where does the picking and choosing start? Who will be chosen to do the
> picking and the judging? If there were a god, it would be better to simply
> leave the judging to it.  How do you know someone would displease this god?
> It embraced the whore Mary Magdalene, supposedly enlisted the services of Sau
l
> the murderer, it's even been rumored that one (atleast) of the apostles was
> a gayboy, wasn't St. Francis of Assisi a spoiled, rich brat...?
>
> Finally, may I repeat: What is so enviable about this biblical society?  The
> wars, the incest, offering of daughters to strangers, slavery...?
>

<<<<< Mark, think of the bible as not only a historical document
describing many of the sins of the Jews, et al, but also as some of the
inspired laws.  The ten commandments are just those...they are not the
ten suggestions!!!


> Why are you adressing the question about the 13 tribes of Isael specifically
> to Anglos? That's interesting. I wish I had an answer for you.

<<<<<< I have at least succeeded in getting your interest up?? I will
respond later....just looking to see what people who seem to know things
and let me find out if anyone really does or bothered to actually read.

>
> You mentioned abortion again. I feel the life of the mother is just as impor-
> tant as that of the unborn baby.  If it becomes a grave danger for a woman to
>  have a child, I do not judge her for wanting to save her life.  If there wer
e
> a god, I'm sure it's will would probably be stronger than a woman's decision
> to terminate the pregnancy.  If it is the will of this god that the child be
> born, than I wonder if the child would eventually appear somewhere where it
> would be more loved and welcomed.

<<<<<<< Mark, you are getting close!  I do oppose abortion.But, not 100%
just like I oppose killing, but not 100% ----- let me explain!
1- if it is required for the life of the mother and the babay (fetus) in
not viable then.
2- I do opoose it at a whim of the mother or father, because they did not
practice safe sex (let them live with the consequences ---->>> if they do
not wish to
then place the baby up for adoption!
>
> This weekend anti-choice protesters asked me: What if you were aborted, or
> Mozart or George Washington?   Well, these fantasy games serve no purpose.
> I asked them in return:  Well, what if Hitler or Stalin were aborted???
<<<< Since we are not God, we cannot know who will turn out how (unless
he says so)
>
> You sounded upset when you say "liberals" try to label conservatives as bad
> people, but think how they feel when they are labeled as having "fallen from
> god" or as deserving of god's wrath....  Isn't damnation (or rather anger) by
>  god for some more serious that names and labeling? (Anyway, I know atheists
 who
>  are 'conservative,' so we should clearly define liberal and conservative.)

<<<<<< I am upset at liberals because most of the time they do not want
to hear the truth aND HIDE BEHIND LABELS...SO i GIVE THEM SOME OF THEIR
OWN MEDICINE!
While no-one appointed me (as I said eralier in another post) I do have
the right to tell them what I think and why I think that they are fallen.
They do not have to agree with me (in fact I do not expect themn to)

You know the bible says that the road to hell is well paved!

For those people looking at these treads and wondering why this is all
here on Hunagry......it will become clearer as the weeks go on.

QUESTION:

Does anyone know what relationship the HUngarians Have with the UK????
If they know???

Thanx, Peter
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:00 AM 10/4/96 -0400, Amos wrote:

>  Hungary had one of the highest, if not the highest, suicide rate
>  way before the communists. Stop avoiding reality!
>
        Quite! Perhaps one of the problems is that Hungarians tend to set
impossible goals for themselves. You may have noticed that even the most
reasonable correspondents on this list steadfastly refuse to believe that
Hungary has been considerably behind in economic development for centuries.
Pointing out this historical fact seems to be the greatest insult one can
hurdle at Hungarian pride. And if you say so, you are not a patriot, you are
anti-Hungarian, and altogether a terrible person. Yet, I can assure
everybody on this list that East-European backwardness, in comparison to
western Europe, is of long standing, perhaps as far back as the Roman
Empire. One reason for the extremely pessimistic view of current economic
difficulties is that an overwhelming majority of the population believed
that "catching up to," for example, Austria, would be simply question of a
few years. And, of course, the process would be utterly painless. When it
turned out to be otherwise, the reaction was understandably violent.

        By the way, here are a few numbers here considering mental health in
Hungary from the September 28 issue of HVG. While in 1988 only 3% of the
adult population was considered to be seriously depressed (sulyos
depresszio) today the figure is 7%. While in 1988 4.5% of the adult
population suffered from middling sort of depression (kozepes depresszio),
the figure today is 6.5%. While in 1988 the figure for mild depression
(enyhe depresszio) was 16.8% it is 17.1% today. First of all, that means
that 30.6% of the population suffers from some kind of depression! It would
be very interesting to compare these figures with statistics from other
countries. It sounds awfully high to me and, of course, a lot depends on the
methods of ascertaining what serious, middling, and mild depression is.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Contents: _Tortenelmi szemle_ v. 37, no. 3. (1995) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following, a selfless service by Habsburg list member Laszlo Csorba,
is forwarded from the Habsburg list.  I hope it might be of some interest
to listmembers.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
                       TORTENELMI SZEMLE

                Bulletin of the Institute of History of
                the Hungarian Academy of Science

                                  Correspondent: Laszlo Csorba

1995/3.

Here are summaries of the more interesting articles from _Tortenelmi
szemle_ v. 37, no. 3 (1995); the titles have been translated from
Hungarian:


Borhi, Borhi: "Several Questions of Eastern European Policy of
the United States 1948-1956"

  The presence of the Soviet Union in the East-Central European states was a
strategic menace to Western Europe, since as the Policy Planning Staff put
it in 1949, it "extended the power of the Soviet Union into the heart of
Europe". As the United States considered Western European security as a
part of its own, the elimination of Soviet predominance became a matter of
concern for Washington. Strategies for the elimination or at least the
reduction of Soviet presence in East-Central Europe were spelled out in a
series of National Security Council papers from 1949. Their common feature
throughout the 50s was that they envisioned the liberation of the Eastern
part of the continent in two stages, liberation ifself being a long term
objective. Until 1953 American policy used two major tools to achieve its
ends in the Soviet sphere: economic and psychological warfare. Economic
warfare had two major objectives: to create economic difficulties for the
Soviet Union and its satellites; two decrease Soviet military power. Trade
with Eastern Europe was regarded as a security issue, trade controls were
gradually relaxed after 1953 and after 1955 the expansion of trade in
non-strategic commodities was thought desirable from the point of view of
mellowing Soviet power in Eastern Europe.

  Psychological warfare was in the main carried out by radio broadcasts,
Radio Free Europe, and Voice of America, both of which acted according to
government guidelines. The objective was to create antagonism among the
satellites and within the communist leadership, and to maintain the spirit
of anti- communist resistance and that of liberty; but no promise was to
be made of an armed liberation.

  After Stalin's death the State Department drew up plans for a negotiated
settlement with Moscow of the Eastern European question along the lines of
"Finlandization". However, the Soviet Union did not want to hear about
such a thing.

  From 1955 a change of paradigm occurred: Eastern zone countries were no
longer to be treated as a monolithic bloc, but on an individual basis;
Washington resolved to enter into dialogue with the communist regimes.

  The 1956 revolutions in Hungary and Poland caught the US off guard.
American policy was unprepared for a scenario where an armed revolt
occurred against the Soviet Union in a Satellite states -- in fact such an
eventuality had been believed impossible.

  As far as Poland was concerned, Washington supported the Gomulka
leadership and envisioned a drastic improvement of Polish-American
relations. The Soviet leadership was made aware that their armed
intervention in Poland would entail serious consequences possibly even
armed intervention. In Hungary's case the situation was different.
Washington did not like Imre Nagy and was unwilling to get in contact with
him. It was believed that if the US signalled to Moscow it would not
exploit the Hungarian events for NATO's benefit, but would give due regard
to Soviet security interests, the Soviets would refrain from military
intervention and even Hungary's neutralization might become possible.
Military intervention was ruled out for fear of an armed conflict with the
Soviet Union, should that take place. However, American policymakers
misjudged Moscow's intentions; their policy was based on false assumptions
on Soviet motives.


Engel, Pal: "A List of Peasant Tenants in the Backa (Voivodina) from the
Year 1525"

>From the late Middle Ages have survived a great number of documents from
Hungary that contain lists of the inhabitants of one or more settlements.
This kind of documents are important sources for historical topography,
demography and onomatology, and for social history as well. One point of
interest of the presently published source lies in its unusual extent: it
contains the names of 1394 inhabitants from 26 settlements. The source is
also important because of the territory it concerns (Voivodina, today part
of Yugoslavia).  The ethnic and topographical questions have not been
elucidated. It seems probable on the basis of the name list that in 1525
the territory between present-day Subotica and Novi Sad was still
predominantly inhabited by a Hungarian-speaking population.


Ladanyi, Andor: "The Hungarian Dahlem: Klebelsberg's Plan for the
Establishment of a Scientific Centre"

The study deals with the birth, shaping and failure of the plan which was
initiated by a man of vision, Count Kuno Klebelsberg, the Hungarian
minister of religion and public education in the 1920s. At the beginning
of 1926, modelling on the scientific institutions of the Kaiser Wilhelm
Gesellschaft zur Foerderung der Wissenschaft in Berlin-Dahlem, Klebelsberg
raised the issue of the gradual organisation of a scientific centre in
order to provide a site for the scientific institutions of the University
of Budapest, the Technological University, and the research institutions
to be established later. The centre was to be placed in Budapest on the
right bank of the Danube, southwards to the Technological University, a
place still under Danube water at that time. The plan was given positive
form and became an organic part of a bill containing measures for the
improvement of natural sciences. The bill was proposed in the Parliament
in June, 19266. Although its discussion was prevented by the end of the
parliamentary term, the preparations for the establishment of the
scientific centre were carried on. There were obstacles, however, that
prevented the realisation of the "Hungarian Dahlem". The building costs
would have been covered by the government, but money to pay for the
building up of the territory under the river was a prerequisite for the
beginning of construction. This money, despite repeated promises, did not
meet expenses. This was the main reason for the plan being struck from the
agenda in 1929.
+ - Forum: Ten Untaught Lessons about Central Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear fellow-listmembers,

The following is the kickoff piece to an interesting ongoing discussion
on the Habsburg list.  I am forwarding it from there in the hope that
it might also be of some interest to participants on this list.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Elections are being held in Bosnia on Friday, September 13.  For
HABSBURGers who are unable to participate, we have prepared a substitute:
a public forum on what our pundits and statesmen ought to understand, but
seemingly do not, about current problems in East Central Europe.  As
specialists we have the opportunity, even duty, to set them straight. In
the words of HABSBURG Co-Editor Charles Ingrao:

        All have operated under the misconception that they can learn the
        lessons of history by going back a few decades to the immediate
        origins of a particular crisis.  But only by going beyond the
        past half century of the region's history -- beyond Tito, the
        Ustasa, and World War II -- can we comprehend what is really
        going on today, not just in the Balkans, but throughout
        Central Europe and much of the former Soviet Union.  The
        answers to our questions are not unteachable, just untaught.

        Ingrao is the author of an essay that is now available in the
Working Papers series of the Center for Austrian Studies as number 96-3:
_Ten Untaught Lessons about Central Europe: An Historical Perspective_.
With the consent of the CAS and in order to more widely disseminate his
views, he has also decided to make it available on the Internet.  The
printed text is twenty-four pages long, and may be found on the HABSBURG
web site and gopher at

  http://h-net2.msu.edu/~habsweb/occasionalpapers/untaughtlessons.html
  gopher://gopher.ttu.edu:70/00/Pubs/lijpn/HABS/Papers/lessons

In lieu of posting the entire essay to the group, we prefer to convey its
flavor and arguments with these excerpts, and invite you to read the
essay in its entirely on the web or gopher.  There are ten "lessons":

     Lesson #1: The East is Different
"...the process by which the Western peoples of Europe and North America
adopted a single language or culture was arrested throughout the eastern
half of Europe; even closely related dialects...survived long enough to
develop as the distinctive written languages of today."

     Lesson #2: "Ethnic Cleansing" has a Long History
"Westerners who are at a loss to comprehend the barbaric tactics of the
last five years should start with today's populations' collective
memories of Turkish raiding parties...[but] Even more population
movements were voluntary...The messy demographics still persist in many
areas today..."

     Lesson #3: There is still a Habsburg-Ottoman Frontier
"Both as historian and politician, President Franjo Tudjman is fond
of citing the dichotomy between Croatia's Habsburg and Serbia's Ottoman
past...Far from being religious fanatics, Bosnia's Orthodox Serbs,
Catholic Croats and Islamic Bosniaks are merely expressing their own form
of national identity, even though they all speak one language and descend
from a common Slavic ancestry."

     Lesson #4: Multiethnicity is the Solution, not the Problem
"Whereas the presence of two ethnic grooups represents a formidable
challenge to peaceful coexistence, the task becomes much easier in
polyglot societies.  Whenever there exists a balance of power between
three or more ethnic groups, there is a much greater tendency to coexist
in an atmosphere that is free of the fear of persecution by a single,
dominant group."

     Lesson #5: The Nation-State is the Problem, not the Solution
"To this day, laymen and scholars alike perceive their region's history
from a distinctly national perspective, while minimizing the achievements
of other ethnic groups and the multinational societies to which they once
belonged.  This mass exercise in national amnesia also explains how so
many of the region's peoples could celebrate World War I as the moment of
their liberation, rather than as the most catastrophic event to befall
Central Europe in the five centuries since the Turkish conquest."

     Lesson #6: Versailles + Four
"It is widely appreciated that the Treaty of Versailles doomed Europe to a
second, even more destructive world war, followed by mass genocide and a
half-century of nuclear confrontation between the two great superpowers...
But, if we have overcome much of the Versailles legacy, we have yet to
address the equally unfortunate consequences of the four other Paris peace
treaties that we concluded with Germany's World War I allies."

     Lesson #7: The Jews were the First Victims of the Nation-state
"We all know the ultimate fate of nearly six million Central European
Jews. Over the past four years journalists and political observers alike
have repeatedly pointed out that the murder of scores of thousands of
Croats and Bosnian Muslims in the former Yugoslavia constitute the worst
episode of genocide since the Holocaust.  Yet none of these analysts has
recognized the obvious link between these two horrible human catastrophes:
namely, the imposition of the nation-state on multiethnic, Central Europe.

     Lesson #8: The US has always deferred to its allies in Central Europe
"Of course, there is yet another parallel between Central Europe's two
twentieth-century holocausts of which we are aware.  Historians of the
Second World War have documented the unwillingess of many neutral and
allied leaders to take action, or even speak out about Hitler's death
camps...[and] Maintaining allied solidarity against the Axis Powers was of
more immediate consequence than a potentially divisive revision of the
region's borders.  Yet this third option was arguably the worst in the
long run."

     Lesson #9: Past, Present & Future: Recasting Central Europe
"...it is not too late to launch a public dialogue throughout the region,
daring (but not compelling) its people both to rediscover the forgotten
benefits of their multinational past and to confront what nationalism has
cost them in external security, economic prosperity, and domestic peace.
At the very least, it would also reassure and reacquaint the Serbs of
Bosnia and Croatia with their long history of ethnic coexistence and
collaboration."

     Lesson #10: Toward a Lasting Solution: The Case for War Crimes Trials
"War Crimes Trials constitute a realistic antidote to the psychosis that
explains Rump Yugoslavia's horrific actions in Bosnia and Croatia.  With
them we can hope to reacculturate the Serbs and others who reject
international norms of behavior as an unjustified restraint on their
thirst for retribution. There is a precedent for such confidence in the
cathartic effects of such trials: We need only look to Germany..."

On Friday we will feature responses by two prominent HABSBURGers,
Professors Gale Stokes of Rice University and Istvan Deak of Columbia
University.  Then we will throw the forum open to your contributions.
+ - The Bible - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>
> <<<<< Mark, think of the bible as not only a historical document
> describing many of the sins of the Jews, et al, but also as some of the
> inspired laws.  The ten commandments are just those...they are not the
> ten suggestions!!!
>
  As far as I understand, no respectable Bible scholar accepts the
  Bible as history or a historical document any more.
>
> <<<<<< I am upset at liberals because most of the time they do not want
> to hear the truth aND HIDE BEHIND LABELS...SO i GIVE THEM SOME OF THEIR
> OWN MEDICINE!

  This is nothing but a bunch of BS (not your degree),
                                                       Amos
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
SNIPPPPP
>
> And do you know how brain death occurs?  First, you place a bit of nonsense
> into it.  Then you increase the nonsense slowly until your brain suffocates.
> You, and others, have accomplished this with "holy books".  And you don't
> even know it!  And just because you used "holy books" doesn't make the
> results of brain death more appealing.
<<<< It is unfortunate that you have yet to learn to think well enough to
keep up with most of us on the net..your quotes are great for someone
that cannot generate original thinking. Perhaps parroting is one way they
teach some to learn in the hopes that stuff will stick (eventiually).

> I can no longer criticize you for not thinking for yourself.  You just
> can't, and I accept that.
>
> Have a good day.
<<<<<<<< Have a nicedreamday Joe. I do hope that maybe you can do my
thinking for me...after all that is what liberals are all about!

One thing I KNOW is that at least I am not one of those nuts that says
that God told me to something....

BTW --- I did not call it the holy bible...the church(es) did. This gives
them extra authority you see!  What I am stating categorically, is that
ALL have to read it and find the origins and real meanings for themselves
and NOT from the "authorities" of the various "churches".  There are good
and evil people in every race, creed, color, religion no matter what.  I
just hope that for all of our sakes we can see past the things that are
being touted as better ways be it liberalism, conservatism, or what ever
label you want to put on it!  The sheep mentality (i.e being politically
correct) is a lot of BS. Perhaps if we everryone would be NOT afraid of
stating the truth then we could make this world much better!

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:41 AM 10/7/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

<snip>
>If one does not wish to recognize the above then at least give me the
>privildge of letting people know what is happening. You know that one can
>be killed very easily by slowy increasing the temperature of the water
>their are bathing in wihtout the subject knowing it!!! Which seems to be
>happening to a lot of people lateley (allegorically speaking -- just in
>case you did not follow that)

And do you know how brain death occurs?  First, you place a bit of nonsense
into it.  Then you increase the nonsense slowly until your brain suffocates.
You, and others, have accomplished this with "holy books".  And you don't
even know it!  And just because you used "holy books" doesn't make the
results of brain death more appealing.

I can no longer criticize you for not thinking for yourself.  You just
can't, and I accept that.

Have a good day.

Joe Szalai

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the
cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which
more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we
called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of
wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
             Thomas Paine
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Yeah, America is amazing! And I just love it.

I sang the world famous American song, Amazing Grace, together with thousands
of people in the weekend. Everybody was so happy that it is hard to express.
This is the real American spirit, the spirit of freedom and love.In my opinion
this is the best American song ever written. (Everybody knows the musics of
this song in Hungary too, but they don't know the words. They don't know, that
it is a beautiful Christian song. Why? Because you sell them America without
the real content, without the real American spirit, which is so intimately
related with God through love.)

  "I once was lost
   Now am free,
   Was blind
   But, now I see."

In his weekend sermon Father Kennedy spoke about the "new kind of men", a
fabrication of the communists by their utterly atheistic and antihuman
philosophy. This kind of "new man" was completely revealed in the guards of
the GULAG. He spoke about the "unspeakable sufferings" e.g. woman prisoners
had to endure in GULAG at the hands of these guards. Their acts were the acts
of the cruelest kind of men in the history of the mankind. (You may also read
about this in the special report about the GULAG killing techniques of the
Beszelo, an SzDSz related organ, which appeared a couple of years ago.)

Father Kennedy was completely right. This man knows what he is talking about.
You can not be renewed without God.

Billy Graham had his Carolina crusades in Charlotte, NC. At the evening I
atteneded, I listened to him surrounded by a cheering crowd of 72,000 people.
(Of course, you say, 72thousand 'extreme rightwinger fundamentalists'... ;-)
Now, this was the famous American spirit!! That is why we call America an
amazing country! You have these guys as Billy Graham, and more like that,
people are busy listening to them.

The Public Broadcasting System has a series about the political history of
the American evangelistic movement. It is aired in local tv's once a week.
You are too naiv if you think, Father Kennedy's qoute is untrue. From the
document series we may learn that as early as in 1972 some public schools
already tried to enforce some horrendous textbooks on the students and their
parents. It was the infamous West Virginia case,where in the elementary school
textbook the officials included an idealized "fantasy story" about people
making love in a public bus. In the story the passangers of the bus stripped
all their clothes off as the bus rode accross the city, and everybody began to
make love with one another.

The outrage of the parents were tremendous. And it is a historical fact, that
it was the beginning of the fight for religious freedom.

Now, the public education is infected by the same kind of liberal behavior:
some teachers try to enforce the dumbest doctrines on the students. The NAE
(National Association of Educators) has an extreme liberal POLITICAL agenda
and they force it without any regard of parental protest.

School choice may be able to help the problem. Monopolized education (and
that is what you have in the public schools) is always dangerous.

As a Catholic I can not agree with evangelicals in a couple of details, but
I have a high respect toward them, and their uncompromised zeal to protest
the atheistic excesses so provocatively exposed by liberals in the society.

Just yesterday evening Clinton tried to make a point that as a boy he
attended a Catholic school. Sorry, Mr. President. The Catholic vote is not
this cheap. You can not buy it by fooling around. Whatever happened to the
grizly abortion bill, Mr. President... You vetoed it, and you still want
Catholics to vote for you?! Funny, as it is.

These are not my words. These are the words of my local Catholic priest.
(Another 'right-winger', of course. ;-)))
He did not shy away telling people the opinion of the Church about the act
of the President of the United States of America. What a nice music for
our ears...

I tell you, I just love America, the spirit of real freedom. Amazing country.
Amazing people. O boy, believe me. It is. Cheers,

  It is the day,
  That the Lord has made,
  I will rejoice,
  And be glad in it.
                                                                Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Hungary,the thread. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:01 PM 10/6/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

>I just finished reading one of the most illustrious person,newest attack
>aginst this thread in the Forum.
....
>Please inform me who and what had been written about Hungary wich keeps this
>guy harping about most of the paricipant in this list.I realise he has a
>personal hatred against EB,since she is necer too shy to awnser
>allegataions,but as far as I can see we have many other subject in our mind
>than to "put down" Hungary.

        Of course, I read the note too, which, by the way, is extremely
funny. On the one hand, he is terribly upset that somebody tried to shut
down the Forum by writing to Jozsi Hollosi, but, on the other hand, he
himself suggests that the Hungary-list should be shut down; or if that is
too far-fetched, it should be be moderated. Cause: it is a hotbed of
anti-Hungarian propaganda. According to him, that is.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:34 AM 10/7/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote in connection with Agnes's
remarks on the laws of the Old Testament:

><<<<<<<< I agree with most of what tyou said Agnes:
>The fact is that people often miss the essence of the point and grab onto
>little things. Of ocurse Orthodox jew should be able to turn on the light
>or travel

        Maybe they should but they don't want to. They put the emphasis on
form instead of content.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Amazing... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:00 PM 10/6/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:
 wrote:
>
>>Real US
>>conservatives are true capitalists, unlike the confused Hungarian pseudo-
>>conservatives who prefer a coctail of religious extremism and the purest
>>of anticapitalist corporatism and statism that would make Mussolini
>>and Khrushchev proud even though their religions were a little different.
>
>Statements like this I find objectionable because they imply the
>superiority of one nation over another.  Why do you need to add national
>labels?  Actually, your statement would have equal validity if it read:
>
>"Real Hungarian
>conservatives are true capitalists, unlike the confused  US pseudo-
>conservatives who prefer a coctail of religious extremism and the purest
>of anticapitalist corporatism and statism that would make Mussolini
>and Khrushchev proud even though their religions were a little different."
>
>But it would have sounded best (and would be universally valid) if you had
>said:
>
>"Real conservatives are true capitalists, unlike confused pseudo-
>conservatives who prefer a coctail of religious extremism..."

        But that would be meaningless in this case because there is a huge
difference between economic conservatives in this country and in Hungary. In
Hungarian economic/political thinking everything is topsy-turvy.
Conservatives espouse liberal/socialist economic thoughts, while the
liberal/socialists are followers of conservative economic thinking. George
had to mention geography for this very reason. His statement has nothing to
do with superiority or inferiority of nations.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing Amer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:36 AM 10/7/96 -0400, Peter  wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, George Antony wrote:

>> The problem is that you have no idea about economics beyond the most
>> simplistic tabloid headlines and even then you are fundamentally confusing
>> the economic stand of your heroes with that of your perceived enemies.
>
>
><<<< Maybe they teach economics in Tabloids in Australia, but here we
>take college course. Let me assure you that I am well qualified.

        Peter, I'm afraid that you are not too well versed in economics.
Sorry, but George, who is an economist by training and profession, is right.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The Bible - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, DANUBE wrote:
<snip>>
>   As far as I understand, no respectable Bible scholar accepts the
>   Bible as history or a historical document any more.

Well Amos, I guess you are in for a surprise....there have been many many
confirmations now about some of those "things" in the bible by actual
archiologists and historians....
Peter
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:53 AM 10/7/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
><SNIP>
>
>
>On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, aheringer wrote:
>
>> >Who do you think you are - - who made you king, god, the messiah
>> >that you are "alerting" us to mend our ways.
>
><<<< Like any good Christian, Jew, or Muslim one needs to let others know
>if you are aginast the rules of God.

        So, then, you consider yourself the messenger of God?

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Your God!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter S - At 09:42 AM 07/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, DANUBE wrote:
>
><<<< How do you if it is a waste? Perhaps for you Mr. DANUBE it is. I do
>not have top prove what my faith is. I was responding to those who deny
>that there is a god or have totally abandoned it.
>
(Amos, please forgive my butting in here).

Peter:
Now let's see:  I had the absolute nerve to reply to:
 "As I stated earlier -- the H+Judeo-Christian religious ethic absolutely
forbids suicide.  Just because some Japanese and other cultures perform
ritualistic suicides not NOT make them right!  I certainly  (I  I hope that
no one out there) wants to have their children be taught about
suicide.....things can be though enough without godless people out there!
Peter Soltesz"

In response, I received some "accusations" to which I wrote something like:
"it does not come as a great surprise, that you would continue to form
ridiculous conclusions etc"  .... In addition, your conclusion on the
nationalities of Marina and myself; is an excellent example; as is your
statement to Amos above (there's many more; but I really don't feel like
cutting and pasting).  These, your first, but ridiculous conclusions since
my reply;  are now but mildly offensive in comparison to your postings as of
late.  In which you further demonstrate outragous contradictions to your
originally stated post, incredible hypocracy, and, even attempts to draw
people into debates through utilizing games of the most manipulative kind.

You, Mr Soltesz are not looking for any debate and/or exchange of ideas.
Your wish is clearly to preach  -  In conclusion, I wish to put zero time
towards reading, or responding to your spewed words beyond this post.  This
newsgroup and it's members have become important to me through the past many
months; and have supremely more interesting topics/advice/recommendations to
offer!  At this point, I highly regret having reacted to your initial post
as above.

><<<<<<<<<<<Actually Mr. DANUBE I am not intolerant. If you bothered to
>read all of my postings. I believe that you can do lots of things and
>tolerate much more thatn many people I have seen or heard of including you!

Oops - here is yet another excellent example (without having to cut and
paste) of your eloquently stated hypocritical stance.
>
>All I am asking and stating that if you want something from the
>government then it better be something that I also approve of, else get
>it and pay for it yourself!  Do not ask me to perform and support or
>subsidize things that are wrong in my belief, el;se you will not succeed.

Good one, Mr. Soltesz?!  This is not asking, by anyone's interpretation,
save your own.  Your above words are noxious, aggressively demanding
threats.  Please consider that amongst the population of the US - you are
but a teeny weeny, rather insignificant voice.  However, you are a voice,
that has available options.  Hate the public school system?  There are
private ones I am sure you can locate, that will fit your required bill.
Want to control government spending and agenda?  Run for government!  But
before you do, remember that you will also have to attract the votes of your
so called  "godless" and "athiests" - whom are also taxpayers with a voice.
On whom you will greatly count on for support.  Then again, you could also
opt for a position with the organizers/owners one of those Sunday morning TV
shows;  whose claims you tend to like to take for a fact.  There, at least,
you will learn a great deal about merchandising and marketing in general.
And there, you can put all your wonderfully demonstrated gifts to excellent use
.

Btw - you, or Zoli, have still not provided substantiation to this group,
for the claims regarding the school in question.  And in closing - until you
get to know me personally; I would ask that you stray away from continuing
to make ridiculous conclusions and claims regarding my religion, beliefs,
values, being et al.

For the last time on this topic,
Aniko
















>
>
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
Peter Wrote:
> ><<<< Like any good Christian, Jew, or Muslim one needs to let others know
> >if you are aginast the rules of God.
>
>         So, then, you consider yourself the messenger of God?
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
<<< Rather that then that of the devil thank you!@
+ - Re: Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing Amer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 11:36 AM 10/7/96 -0400, Peter  wrote:
> >On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, George Antony wrote:
>
> >> The problem is that you have no idea about economics beyond the most
> >> simplistic tabloid headlines and even then you are fundamentally confusing
> >> the economic stand of your heroes with that of your perceived enemies.
> ><<<< Maybe they teach economics in Tabloids in Australia, but here we
> >take college course. Let me assure you that I am well qualified.
>         Peter, I'm afraid that you are not too well versed in economics.
> Sorry, but George, who is an economist by training and profession, is right.
>
>         Eva Balogh

Well to bad that you do not know what economics training and experience I
have. However, let me say this: No two economists have the same views.

Moreover, the fact is that EVERY time the US reduced taxes on the
populace the income of the treasury GREW!!!! So put that one under your hat
with your liberal econmists -- here is the proof that basic economics
DOES WORK!

Peter>
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>,
 says...
>
><SNIP>
>
>
>On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, aheringer wrote:
>
>> >Who do you think you are - - who made you king, god, the messiah
>> >that you are "alerting" us to mend our ways.
>
><<<< Like any good Christian, Jew, or Muslim one needs to let others
know
>if you are aginast the rules of God. Whether or not you like it.
>How would you feel if your mother was playing the chicken and the egg
>game with you?  I guess you would not be here now perhaps>????

Peter, you are quoting the wrong person.   I didn't write the above.
However, yes, I wrote that a fertilized egg is not a chicken.  And, for
your information, if I would not be here, it wouldn't be such a big loss
- so far I am concerned.

Agnes
+ - Re: Your God!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Aniko...I guess you would prefer that I be in the large silent
majority that is the actual USA and not the liberal media stuff that you
and other seem to believe is the essence of the USA.
Thank you.
Peter
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 10:34 AM 10/7/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote in connection with Agnes's
> remarks on the laws of the Old Testament:
>
> ><<<<<<<< I agree with most of what tyou said Agnes:
> >The fact is that people often miss the essence of the point and grab onto
> >little things. Of ocurse Orthodox jew should be able to turn on the light
> >or travel
>
>         Maybe they should but they don't want to. They put the emphasis on
> form instead of content.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
YES You are correct Eva...This holds true for most religionns in the
world today.
Tehy judge you by how you look in a church, etc. NOT on your daily life.
I guess that is OK...the ultimate judge will judge us anyhow!
Peter
+ - Re: Walruses and kings (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>
I agree with everything on this essay.  Agnes

>To All:
>
>I am posting this not as a response to Aniko's call to the colors
(and=20
>many colors they are) but as a result of having observed the fray for=20
>a long enough time to be able to make up my mind to join it. Both my=20
>hips are artificial, and the doctors advised me to keep away from my=20
>legs being pulled,  it could be extremely hazardous to my health. I
am=20
>sure there will be some out there who will say that it is unfair to=20
>use a handicap as a crutch, still, I have to use a crutch for my=20
>handicap.=20
>I thank the member who shared with us the joke about the little boy=20
>and politics. I deleted already the entire posting, so I don't=20
>remember who it was, but I did enjoy it.=20
>The subjects to be tackled are numberless. God, suicide, Amazing=20
>America,  rounding up the Jews in Hungary, nazism, communism,=20
>capitalism, and so on. I am no expert in any of these. I like to=20
>picnic in the woods, but I am no forester, nor lumber man, not even
an=20
>environmentalist.  But it does hurt me when the trees are felled,
even=20
>though I understand, that we need lumber, telegraph poles, railroad=20
>ties, etc. Yet, I believe that I should put in my dime's worth,
mainly=20
>because I am old, and though younger generations can scream their=20
>heads off, they can't take away from me the volume of my experience.=20
>Certainly, there are people who don't  learn from experience. And=20
>there are those. who observe the world around them, but if events=20
>don't happen to them, do not affect them, they stand there gazing as=20
>the child in front of the lion cage, seeing, but not comprehending.
>More then a year ago I had a longish debate with a man living in=20
>Bulgaria , with a Polish name but professing Hungarian relationships.=20
>It was on the VITA list. He turned out to be a fanatical Catholic,
who=20
>wasn't interested in debate, only in proving his Credo. I recounted=20
>the innumerable atrocities and disasters caused by the Christians in=20
>the name of God, and the equally innumerable occasions when God let=20
>down the faithful, but nothing helped. I had to quit, realizing, that=20
>there is no way to shake the faith of a true believer, and, what's=20
>more, it is not  up to anybody to try to do so. The faithful are
happy=20
>in their beliefs, and are helped by it, so why undermine them? As
long=20
>as they leave me alone.  Hungarians are among those, who had the=20
>opportunity to feel the hand of "God" through their history, and many=20
>of them still believe. But that is nothing compared to the Jews. the=20
>chosen, who were obviously chosen to suffer.  Whether their suffering=20
>was caused by the Romans, the Spanish, the Jesuits, the English ,=20
>Hitler or Nyetanyahu, what's the difference?
>Another thing. What is God? The word is English, derived from the=20
>German Gott, and has really nothing to do with Yahweh, Jehovah,
Allah,=20
>Dieu, Dios, or Isten. Each of those, and many more come from entirely=20
>different concepts.  The multi-God systems at least separated the
Gods=20
>for good, from the Gods for bad. The monotheistic religions forced=20
>themselves to unite the good and the evil in one entity, and to me it=20
>just doesn't work. It can very well be the cause of most human=20
>disasters. =20
>The idealists of the world, who are either just naive, or not=20
>intelligent enough to see the light (or darkness), only change when=20
>the un-ideal events affect them directly. Then they become cynics. =20
>Then, according to their genetic make-up, they either go on living in=20
>a rage, but thoroughly cognizant of the fact, the they can't really=20
>change anything, or learn the ways, and become one of the numerous=20
>mis-leaders in the world, or, if they remain idealists, and their=20
>sense of responsibilities at large allows them, commit suicide.
Since=20
>their life is their own (even for the God fearing, life is not a
gift,=20
>just a loan), in my opinion they are free to end it.  Their families=20
>remain, eternally injured by this deed, but there is nothing=20
>prohibiting them from committing suicide, too.  History is full of=20
>family suicides, and even some animals (lemmings, whales) participate=20
>in it.  Ethics, morality? Moral is that is customary (mores) : it=20
>changes, varies from tribe to tribe.  The Japanese have elevated=20
>ritual suicide to the height of extreme heroism, and so did the early=20
>Christians.  All those martyrs could have preserved what they=20
>considered their gift from God, life, with a short statement. But
they=20
>preferred to die, and had the right to. Still, beware of idealists,=20
>political, religious, or any other kind.  They will never realize
that=20
>harmony in the world can only be achieved without the human race.
>=20
>Enough for today.  I hope you all will have a field day pointing out=20
>the contradictions.
>
>Karoly
>
>Az =E9let olyan mint egy gyerek ing: r=F6vid =E9s szaros.
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.Stowe wrote to P.Hidas:

>You haven't answered my question at all.

Comm'n, you did not have questions, you have biased wiews and simple
wanted to publicate them. You don't care much with facts and answers.
Otherwise you would not write such things:

>were even tempted to make your first claim. I am granting the possibility
>that there is some objective, normative definition of "deportation" that
>makes what happened prior to the German occupation in March, 1944, unequal
>to or incomparable to what occurred after that date.

According P.Hidas's datas:

18,000 jewish refugees (i.e they were not hungarian citizens!) were
deported Galicia and 16,000 were killed by the SS. That is probable
Kamenetsk-Podolsk that you was talking about.
Let's say: 18,000 deads

In Ujvidek 4,000 people mainly Serbs (1,000 jewish) were killed.
Let's say: 4,000 deads

60,000 jewish men served in labour battallion. !5,000 died before 1944
and a further 10,000 after. 25,000 died in the hand of the Soviets.
Let's say: 60,000 deads

Copper mines in Bor. ?????? No related data.
Let's say: 100,000 deads

Total:
182,000 deads. And I have the 'sanda gyanu' that I slightly overestimated
it. (I guess the real number for what the hungarian authorities are directly
responsible is around 30,000.)
If you think this number is impressive for a small country, just make a
library search with the subject 'ustashi'.

So 182,000 killed jews/ 4years  versus 437,402/ 4months (1944 March-June),
and how, before 1944 some difficult 'tricky' methods, after 1944 railway
connection to the gas chambers. Maaan, you must be very kind to the hungarians
to grant them that 'possible difference' .

Also you wrote:

>to or incomparable to what occurred after that date. The only difference I
>can see is that the Nazis were more thorough and efficient than the
>homegrown Hungarian effort.

This basicly summarizes your opinion about Hungary (Hungarian History,
hungarians) and also about Europians (the last is only my deduction).
Now everybody can see why I was accusing you arrogancy and Hungary
(and Europe) 'bashing'. I don't say that the hungarians was not responsible
for the events of WWII, but if someone writes something like you did s/he
is either stupid or 'igen vastag a bor a pofajan'.

J.Zs
+ - To Jeliko (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves Jeliko,

I am just about to finish my answer to your comments about Russia and Bosnia. I
 am sorry but I had no more time to finish it earlier. Unfortunatelly it won't
 make sense to post it if you leave. So, please
let me know whether you can read it (I would send it tomorrow at latest) or
 forget about it. I can even send it to your private E-mail
address if you want.

J.Zs
+ - Salaries *not only* in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I found it in a humour-related newsgroup, but it answers some questions
regarding salaries everywhere in the world.

>Abstract: Applying elementary algebraic techniques to a few cliches,
>a new understanding can be reached of the secret to wealth and
>success.
>
>Consider the following field axioms:
>
>    1. Knowledge is Power
>    2. Time is Money
>
>and, as every engineer knows,
>
>    3. Power is Work over Time.
>
>Substituting algebraic equations for these time-worn shreds of wisdom,
>we get:
>
>    K = P   (1)
>    T = M   (2)
>    P = W/T (3)
>
>Now, do a few simple algebraic substitutions:
>
>Put W/T in for P in equation (1), which yields:
>
>    K = W/T (4)
>
>Put M in for T into equation (4), which yields:
>
>    K = W/M (5).
>
>Now we've got something. Expanding back into English, we get:
>
>    "Knowledge equals Work over Money"
>
>What this MEANS is that:
>
>    1. The More You Know, the More Work You Do, and
>    2. The More You Know, the Less Money You Make.
>
>Solving for Money, we get:
>
>    M = W/K (6)
>
>    "Money equals Work Over Knowledge"
>
>From equation (6) we see that Money approaches infinity as Knowledge
>approaches 0, regardless of the Work done.
>
>Therefore: "The More you Make, the Less you Know"
>
>Solving for Work, we get
>
>    W = M*K (7)
>
>    "Work equals Money times Knowledge"
>
>From equation (7) we see that Work approaches 0 as Knowledge
>approaches 0.
>
>Working out the socioeconomic implications of this breakthrough is
>left as an exercise for the reader.



******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
           Edgar Allan Poe

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