Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 205
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-01-26
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
		
Kedves Olvasok!

Tegnap nem volt HIX, egeszen pontosan kedd delutan 4-tol
szerda delutan 3-ig a JHU (es igy a HIX kozponti gepe is)
el volt vagva a halozattol. 

Az ezido alatt kuldott levelek donto resze a kapcsolat
feleledese utan beerkezett (ezt az ujsagok rekordmeretebol
is lehet latni).

Jozsi. /HIX/
1 US Public TV series about Cold War (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
2 mochovce EIA critics (forwarded) (mind)  511 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Cognitively challenged (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Taxes on GNP (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  89 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Classical capitalist (was re:jargon) (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #173; Biological relationship (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Horn and the hotels (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  168 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Catching up (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
17 Restless Farewell(*) (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
18 Washington, D.C. - Eloadas (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Horn and the hotels (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
22 Discussions on this list. (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
23 austrian governm.information about NPP mochovce (mind)  702 sor     (cikkei)
24 Misquote, sorry (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Szoba/Lakaskeresis Budapesten (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
26 HUNGARIAN NETWORK (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Parliamentary representation of ethnic minorities (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
29 INVITATION! (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
31 Washington, D.C. - Films (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: ***HUNGARY***** (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Horn and Clinton (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: ***HUNGARY***** (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  101 sor     (cikkei)
36 New History Book (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
37 Stolen Hungarian Art (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
39 2 hungarians in westinghouse (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Parliamentary representation of ethnic minorities (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Discussions on this list. (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Horn and Clinton (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Catching up (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
45 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
47 mochovce studies available (fwd) (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
48 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
49 Re: Discussions on this list. (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
50 Re: HUNGARIAN NETWORK (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
51 Re: Istvan Kertesz (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
52 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
53 The new PBS series (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
54 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #173; Biological relationship (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
55 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
56 Re: Discussions on this list. (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
57 Old-fashioned Hungarian? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
58 Hungarian Geneology (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
59 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
60 Istvan Kertesz (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
61 Horn and the hotels (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
62 Horn and Clinton (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
63 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
64 Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
65 Re: Discussions on this list. (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
66 Proper names (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
67 Re: Ragasz (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)

+ - US Public TV series about Cold War (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hope this is not going to be aired only on my local PBS TV station but
on the entire network.

Starting this Tuesday (24-JAN-95) at 10 PM (or abouts) a 4-part series
will be aired on the same night of the week.  Its subject is the Cold
War that should shatter some of the myths liberals still cling to.
You will hear it straight from the horse's mouth: the key Russian
players of the Cold War.  I forgot the series title, but you'll notice
it in your program listing.  The series promises to be unusual, coming
from Public TV.  Don't miss it!

Joe Pannon
+ - mochovce EIA critics (forwarded) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

/* Written 11:28 pm  Jan 23, 1995 by gamma in alpin:energy.nuclear */
/* ---------- "mochovce eia analysis" ---------- */

Preliminary Critical Analysis of the Results of the Environmental

Impact Assessment (EIA) Concerning Completion of the

Mochovce Nuclear Power Plant


Contents:


1. Principles and Guidelines to be applied in an Environmental
Impact Assessment (EIA)

2. Contents of the submitted EIA

3. EIA Requirements from an Ecological Perspective

4. Preliminary analysis of weak points of the EIA submitted for
the planned completion of the Mochovce nuclear facility,
including concrete examples.


An analysis by

DI Wolfgang Konrad, Oesterreichisches Oekologie-Institut
Ing. Antonia Wenisch, Oesterreichisches Oekologie-Institut
Dr. Heinz Hoegelsberger, Greenpeace Oesterreich

December 12, 1994


Introduction

Within the framework of a public participation program, Austrian
citizens have been given an opportunity to submit during a 70-day
period beginning on December 8, 1994, comments and objections
concerning the planned completion of the nuclear power plant at
Mochovce, Slovak Republic. The project documentation is
available to the public at the embassy of the Slovak Republic in
Vienna and at district authorities both in the capital Vienna and in
the Austrian provinces. The public participation proceedings in
Austria are similar to those established in Slovakia.

Greenpeace Austria and the Oesterreichisches Oekologie-Institut
(Austrian Ecology Institute) have carried out a preliminary critical
appraisal of the available documents.



1. Principles and Guidelines for an Environmental Impact
Assessment (EIA)


The following brief outline of principles and guidelines to be
applied in any EIA is presented to permit a correct appraisal of the
project documentation that has been submitted.

The general objective of any EIA is to examine all environmental
aspects of a project during the planning stage, i.e., before action is
taken. This is done in the interest of the environment, to achieve
the best possible solution.

As an instrument of environmental policy, an EIA encompasses
three dimensions --

a) The political dimension:

The purpose of EIAs is to provide decision-makers with
ecological information and help prepare decisions. Ecological
information is one of several information aspects that are
weighed against each other in the decision-making process.
Whether or not a project is eventually implemented remains a
decision within the realm of political responsibility.

b) The factual dimension:

At the center of any EIA is an environmental impact study which
concludes with an expert opinion on environmental impact. This
expert paper must provide answers to the following questions:
What kind of environmental impact is to be expected as a result of
the project? How should possible consequences be classified?
Which practical conclusions are to be drawn from these insights?

c) The procedural dimension:

The procedural structure of the EIA is included in the overall
process of preparation of decisions. A broad range of information
needs to be collected in the planning stage, and potential areas of
conflict must be recognized. The EIA provides a procedural
opportunity for an early involvement in the negotiating process of
citizens and interest groups which are affected by the project
(public participation).

To fulfill the above functions, any EIA must comply with the
following principles:

-- The principle of prevention is to ensure that potential
environmental damage is avoided wherever possible.

-- The polluter-pays principle, according to which those who
cause environmental harm must pay for the damage and repair
measures.

-- The principle of holistic evaluation: An important
methodological point is to look at the interactive totality of
aspects that are relevant for the environment, rather than at
isolated effects. An EIA should describe and evaluate all direct
and indirect project effects on humans, animals and plants, soil,
water, air, climate, and landscape, as well as the interactions
between individual factors. Furthermore, it should also include
impacts on material goods and cultural heritage. Thus, carrying
out an EIA involves an interdisciplinary approach, with a
commitment to a synergetic mode of ecological thinking.

-- The principle of transparency: the necessary analyses, forecasts
and evaluations must be carried out in an understandable,
reproducible fashion.

-- The principle of cooperation: cooperation of all parties
concerned (project sponsors, citizens' groups, experts) in
compliance with the above principles. Most notably, this includes
the duty of mutual information.


2. Contents of the Project Documentation on Hand


In the context of application for an EBRD loan, an EIA including a
public participation program has been carried out in accordance
with EBRD regulations.

The submitted project documentation consists of several parts:

I) Project description

Brief introduction to the project.

II) Least cost study

The EBRD consultants Putnam, Hayes & Bartlett prepared a study
comparing the expected cost of the Mochovce project to that of
alternative options.

III) Safety report

A brief description by Electricit de France (EdF) of the facility
as originally planned, with an appendix on modifications so far;
another appendix describes the desired changes for the future.

IV) Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA)

Part IV, the actual EIA, provides some kind of outline and
evaluation of the environmental effects of the planned Mochovce
nuclear power plant. This study was commissioned by Slovensky
Energeticky Podnik (SEP), the future operators of the plant, and
was carried out by their British consultants AEA Technology.
Various portions of the EIA were also carried by local Slovak
companies.

Part IV contains the following sections:

Summary

Overview of the contents of the study in non-technical language.

* Introduction

The introduction gives the background of the EIA (Chapter 1 --
Introduction) and deals with the political, legal and administrative
framework (Chapter 2 -- Policy, Legal and Administrative
Framework) for the completion and operation of the Mochovce
nuclear power plant.

* Project description and environment

This section describes the technical set-up of the power plant and
potential environmental impacts generated by its operation
(Chapter 3 -- Project Description). Another chapter provides
information on the monitoring arrangements for radiological
protection (Chapter 4 -- Radiological Protection Arrangements),
and the third and final chapter of this section (Chapter 5 --
Baseline Data: The Project Area) describes the location and the
major parameters for an evaluation of potential environmental
impact.

 Environmental analysis

This part investigates the direct and indirect environmental effects
caused by the completion and operation of the Mochovce nuclear
power plant. It includes a description of potential emissions
(Chapter 6 -- Routine Discharges) and potential environmental
effects of routine operations (Chapter 7 -- Environmental Impact
of Normal Operation), as well as a discussion of the plant's safety
(Chapter 8 -- Safety Analysis).

Furthermore, five annexes have been added to this part of the
project documentation. They are:

 Annex A -- Potential Environmental Impact of a Combined--
cycle Gas Turbine Power Plant
 Annex B -- Recommended Environmental Action Plan
 Annex C -- Public Participation
 Annex D -- Earth Science and Radiological Protection Glossary
 Annex E -- Terms of Reference for Environmental Impact
Assessment and Audit

Under Austrian law pertaining to environmental impact
assessments, the documentation that has been submitted amounts
to an "Environmental Impact Statement" (EIS) submitted by the
project sponsors. Austrian regulations would now call for an
"Expert Opinion on Environmental Impact", to be carried out by an
independent body, to review the submitted results for
completeness and accuracy.


3. EIA Requirements from an Ecological Perspective


>From an ecological perspective, the following general criteria
have to be met in preparing an environmental impact assessment:


- Provision of evidence that the planned project is in fact  needed.

This point is missing in the present EIA.


- Investigation of alternatives, including a zero option.

Only the planned completion of the nuclear power plant is studied
in any depth. Construction of a combined-cycle gas turbine power
plant is briefly discussed in an annex. Other possible solutions,
including the zero option, are not examined. Neither the
necessary comparison nor an evaluation are provided.


- Project description covering plant engineering and processes.

An outline of the planned facility is provided. However, detailed
information about the peculiar features of the project -- i.e., the
combination of Eastern and newer Western technologies -- is
insufficient.


- Description of expected emissions and currently existing
pollution levels.

While future expected emissions have been studied, existing
pollution levels have not. Consequently, information about total
emission levels is lacking. No maximum emissions limits are
quoted.

- Energy and materials flow balance.

This aspect has been disregarded. Neither the effects of the fuel
cycle (uranium mining, uranium enrichment, production of fuel
rods, etc.) nor the energy input have been taken into account.


- Analysis of potential accidents and evaluation of possible
environmental effects of accidents, as well as an action plan to
reduce accident probability and control accidents.

The EIA presents only one design basis accident. Further weak
points are mentioned, but reference is mostly made to the results
of a study by Riskaudit which has not been submitted. Other
possible design basis accidents are disregarded.

No probabilistic accident risk calculation has been done, neither
is there any information regarding the potential impact of
uncontrollable accidents. Possible accident consequences
affecting Austria are not discussed.


4. Preliminary Analysis, including Examples, of Weak Points in
the EIA submitted for Completion of the Mochovce Nuclear
Power Plant

Although more electricity than needed is currently produced in
Europe, European electricity utilities and banks are planning to
put new power plants into operation. With the support of Western
credits, Western European companies want to complete
construction of the nuclear power plant at Mochovce, Slovakia.
As one of the principal lenders, however, the European Bank for
Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) has requested an
investigation of the environmental effects of the project and a
public debate about it. Even though operation will give rise to no
CO2 or SO2 emissions, nuclear energy also creates pollution of
the environment.


a) Waste heat

The two Mochovce reactor units will generate 880 MW of
electricity. Subtracting the plant's own needs, the remaining
usable power capacity is 784 MW (annual production per unit will
be approx. 2,700 GWh). Only 29 % of the heat that is produced in
the reactors will be converted in usable electrical power; the
remaining 71 % will heat up the atmosphere via four cooling
towers. In this process, water vapour and clouds of water droplets
are created along the cooling towers. Vapour production along the
cooling towers 1) is a waste of energy, 2) affects the local
climate, and 3) changes the conditions under which radioactive
emissions are dispersed from the waste gas ventilation stack. The
documentation does not reveal whether the impact of the cooling
towers on the dispersion of discharged radionuclides has been
taken into account in calculating the population dose for 1)
normal operation, 2) the design basis accident.


b) Radioactive effluents

Radioactive effluents include 1) tritium-containing water from
primary coolant purification and 2) effluents from the
regeneration of filter resins from the primary cycle and the
secondary cycle. In addition to tritium, the latter also contain a
number of other radioactive substances.

The radioactive effluents are diluted and discharged into the river.
Average water temperature at the point of discharge is 33 C (in
Bohunice 35 C in summer, 25 C in winter).

As regards radioactive substances contained in the waste water,
the EIA report does provide limits of activity concentration
before discharging into the river, but there is no maximum limit
on total annual discharges. It is stated, however, that the calculated
level of annual radioactive discharges in waste water is higher than
current discharges from units 3 and 4 at Bohunice. This calculated
figure serves as a basis for the calculation of the collective dose
for the population around the river Danube (all the way to
Budapest). The possibility of accidents in which radioactive water
may be discharged, is not dealt with at all. In actual operation of
nuclear power plants, however, such events are not an altogether
rare occurrence.

c) Radioactive emissions

Again, calculations are presented concerning the expected
radioactive emissions during routine operations. However,
various calculations have been carried out in this instance. The
newer the calculations, the lower are the resulting figures, i.e., the
collective doses. Since detailed information on the calculation
methods is missing, the results are not reproducible. No
maximum limits on total annual emissions are presented. One
table shows that units 3 and 4 of the Bohunice plant only generate
a fraction of the annual maximum emission limit.

As regards accidents, results are only presented for one type of
accident, namely a full-size rupture of one primary coolant loop
[3.4 mSv (340 mrem) effective equivalent dose; thyroid gland 10
mSv (1 rem) -- more detailed information as to methodology
could not be found at initial reading of the EIA report........]

The legal framework cited by the EIA dates back to 1978/79
(CSFR Radiation Protection Regulation), and the following
maximum dose levels are quoted:

The following accident limit levels for the critical population
group are quoted:
eff. dose 250 mSv (2.5 rem)
thyroid adults 1,500 mSv (15 rem)
thyroid children 750 mSv (7.5 rem)

>From an Austrian perspective, these are levels that cause concern;
they do, however, have consequences, since they are the basis for
action and interventions of Slovak authorities in case of accident
(evacuations at 5 rem and above...).


d) Radioactive solid wastes

I) Low-level radioactive wastes will be treated either at Mochovce
or at Bohunice. Filter resins account for the biggest portion of
this waste type. (Eventually, wastes generated by the
decommissioning of the nuclear power plant will be added to this
group.) A facility for compacting and cementation of the wastes is
to be established at Mochovce. A-wastes that can be more heavily
compacted or incinerated, are to be transported to Bohunice,
where an incinerator and a plant for special volume reduction (in
cooperation with NUKEM) are available. These wastes are then
subjected to cementation at Bohunice and packed in concrete
containers (just as at Mochovce). All nuclear wastes are then
brought to one joint storage facility in the vicinity of Mochovce.

Environmental effects of waste treatment are not dealt with
(except for the storage aspect, insofar as it is stated that the
concrete containers for A-waste storage have a life of 300 years).

II) High-level radioactive wastes: Thus, whereas some facts are
known concerning the plans for storage of low-level wastes,
action concerning spent fuel rods is completely left to the
operators of the plant. Only intermediate storage is mentioned in
the documents. The question of what is going to happen to highly
radioactive wastes is entirely left to be answered in the future.
However, an assurance is given in item 8.60 of the EIA that fuel
management at Mochovce can be expected to achieve an
acceptable safety level.

The original project provides for a storage pond with sufficient
capacity for 3 years' worth of fuel elements (designed to store
319 intact and 60 damaged fuel elements); it appears that no
reserve capacities are planned for a contingency in which the fuel
needs to be completely removed from the reactor pressure vessel.

Initially, the storage capacity is to be increased to 5 years by
boron insertions. Subsequently, however, a new intermediate
storage installation must be made available; bids for the
construction of this facility are being considered at the moment.
The new storage facility is to provide sufficient capacity for 20
years of operation of units 1 and 2 of the Mochovce power plant
(600 tonnes or 5,000 fuel elements). The storage facility must
permit expansion, however, to cover the spent fuel elements from
all four reactor units over their entire operating life.

Naturally, a storage facility of this kind amounts to a substantial
increase of the risk posed by the power plant. It is therefore
extremely absurd not to examine this problem in the context of
the EIA. In certain accident scenarios (earthquake, plane crash,
fires, flooding of the premises, etc.), this accumulation of nuclear
fuel would have to be considered. But accidents of this kind have
not been studied at all.


e) Transports

No specific information is provided on the volume and type of
transports.


f) Accidents

The accidents that have been analyzed so far would be insufficient
for any licensing process in a Western European country. This
defect is mentioned in the Safety Report in connection with the
necessity to also analyze the codes and calculation methods. On
the other hand, the many improvements that are planned are meant
to significantly reduce the impact of incidents/DBAs as well as
the frequency of incidents/ accident triggers.

There is as yet no probabilistic safety assessment (PSA) of the
plant. The EIA states that such a safety assessment would not yield
correct results at the present state of affairs, since knowledge of
the construction is still insufficient (items 8.22 and 8.23).
Riskaudit recommends a PSA as soon as all the relevant design
information is available. It appears therefore that not all
documents are at present available.

Nobody seems to have a complete study at their disposal; among
other things, this is reflected in the phrasing of the Safety Report:
"It has to be verified/ justified; if necessary improved..."

An initial reading of the Safety Report did not yield any
information on the role still being played by the original
designers of the plant. Neither the Russian companies
Atommenergoexport, etc., nor Energoprojekt Praha appear to be
involved in the studies -- we believe this to be a rather risky
approach, especially with a view to the interfaces between
Western and Eastern technology. The fact that these interfaces are
especially important is recognized in the Safety Report, e.g., with
regard to the reactor safety system.

As regards the design basis accidents, the list of necessary
improvements includes going over all triggering events once
more and again checking the reactor safety system.
Uncontrollable accidents remain to be studied... But it is these
accidents that make up the danger posed by a plant of this type,
including major leakages of the steam generator, the intersection
between the primary and secondary cycles.

Further problems in the context of planned improvements:

Seismic resistance: The extent to be achieved remains unclear.
The initial design provided for an acceleration of originally 0.06
g; more recent analyses call for a resistance of 0.1 g -- the
applicable figure, however, is still under consideration. An
intensity of 6 MSK is cited for the safety earthquake (6.1.2.3.2.).

Containment of radioactive substances after accidents: Mochovce
does not possess a full pressure containment. The retention of
radioactive substances is to be ensured by a combination of
leaktight reactor building and vapour condensation in the babotage
tower. The functioning of the containment is apparently not quite
guaranteed: The containment (SI 27) will be verified, both for its
structure strength to DBAs and for its leaktightness. It seems that
documentation was not sufficient for an evaluation: No design
notes nor hypothesis notes for the various cases of loading and
combinations used in the design of the containment were
produced for our analyses. There is no proof whatsoever that the
pressure reduction system will be able to withstand the stresses
generated by accidents (pressure difference, temperature) and
will be able to fulfill its function. Future studies are to verify this
point/ form the basis of necessary improvements (B 27.8).
External impacts (earthquakes, plane crashes) pose a special risk,
since they might at the same time weaken the building structure
and lead to leakages.

The release term for the DBAs, however, is based on this system's
ability to function. At the moment, it may therefore be doubted
that a conservative appraisal of accident consequences has indeed
been presented.

The fact that this project is a prototype requires that a large
number of additional analyses be carried out; since these are still
missing, the potential risk of the Mochovce nuclear power plant
cannot be evaluated at this point. Neither do we believe that a
realistic estimate of potential upgrading costs is possible on this
basis, since further studies may entail the need for further
investments.
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >
> --Good point, but the post-modernists have a predictable answer!
> Starting with, "That wasn't socialism, it was Leninism!"  I have
> enjoyed watching my socialist friends distance themselves from the
> old Soviet Union as fast as they can.  They didn't do this until
> about 1989.
>
Who are this post-modernists who call stalinism leninism?
I had socialist friends who accepted a Marxist analysis of
that system (dated from the 30s) and tried to be distant from
the SU ever since... (Due to being younger and no available
information I accepted this view only since 1977 - before this I
have to admit I thought Hungary was on the way to be the best
possible place - see I change my mind when there is a
good enough reason to do 
+ - Re: Cognitively challenged (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
>
> I am ready to come out of the closet. I don't really know what "cognitively
> challenged" means but if I just use my common sense it just might mean: the
> person cannot think adequately. It might just mean deficient in cognitive
> powers. And if this is the case, Norb's question is most justified.
>
> Eva Balogh

If you are referring to me, I think I have a right to challenge the
majority view on this list; that Hungary should copy a market-economy
structure which is not capable to provide a viable future.

+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> --For what it's worth, Apple Computer was started by two guys working
> out of a garage.  And Microsoft was a one man operation when Bill Gates
> started it.
> >

An other myth shattered: "Bill attended the most expensive
private school of Seattle paid for by rich parents;
He went to Harward. He did not gain qualifications, as
he asked for permission to temorarily stop sdudies
to attend to urgent development business."
(badly translated from HVG letter by a Mola Gyorgy (Canada)
I wonder if he started without a penny...

>
> --Any person with five years work experience--even at a low wage
> job--has an advantage over a person with no work experience.  And
> not everyone wants to become a capitalist.
>

..to get a similar unskilled job.

The point of the argument was, miniscule chance to make it to
the american dream - for those who want to.

> --Sorry.  Never had the luxury of being able not to work.
>

You did not have a chance to deliver two kids to the world
which has no decent and affordable childcare facilities...
Pity... I think you'd have a little more understanding and
compassion...

>
> >The point was, that these voices you think are well heard of aka
> >democracy, are not  well heard of.
> >
> --Well, as I said, one cannot make people read and listen.
>

No, you said they were very audable.

>
> --I grew up in a home with no TV and no money.  There was a
> public library about a mile away and we used to fish and
> play various ball games.  We also had chores to do--grass to
> cut, animals to feed, and vegetables to grow.  It is harder
> for city kids, but most cities have parks and libraries.  I
> remember People's Park in Budapest which was a nice, natural
> park in a working class neighborhood.  Nobody seemed to be
> using it except for a few lovers under the trees.
>

Perhaps your school/teachers/friends turned you to be interested
in libraries and selfconfident in learning, if you are not
lucky enough to have such influence, and all you hear all
your life that your family and you are inadequate beings,
you do behave differently.


> >I hate to upset you, but hopefully surprise you:
> >There are a lot of skilled and literate people unemployed, too.
> >More than ever before I think.
>
> --More so in Europe than here.  Partly due to the enormous expense of
> the fringe benefits in Europe.
>

You mean that they were allowed to be educated...


+ - Re: Taxes on GNP (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Eva Durant writes:
>
> > Didn't work for me and I even tried a Stalinist country, not a socialist
> > one...   There again I tended to be an employee in both systems,
> > not an employer... I have to admit, being an employee in
> > a Capitalist country made me a more active  and better socialist...
> > 
>
> Of course some people never learn.
> Jeliko

I suppose you are a more active and better capitalist than you used
to be... that is learning, too.
+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:56:09 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>An other myth shattered: "Bill attended the most expensive
>private school of Seattle paid for by rich parents;
>He went to Harward. He did not gain qualifications, as
>he asked for permission to temorarily stop sdudies
>to attend to urgent development business."

--Then Gates was a dropout?  At least Michael Harrington, also the
child of well-off parents, finished school.

>I wonder if he started without a penny...

>The point of the argument was, miniscule chance to make it to
>the american dream - for those who want to.

--We've got to define this "American Dream" business.  It's pretty
vague, actually, but I don't think that it is to become as wealthy
as Bill Gates.  For most people, what they want is to be able to
have a decent job, a decent place to live, and enough income to
raise a family or, if not interested in raising a family, to have
an interesting life.  Most also want to make some kind of a contribution
to their communities as well.  For most people, their dreams are
pretty realistic, and not grandiose.
>
>You did not have a chance to deliver two kids to the world
>which has no decent and affordable childcare facilities...
>Pity... I think you'd have a little more understanding and
>compassion...

--As a matter of fact, we did have two kids while living in places
with absolutely no decent child-care facilities.  We got by on my salary
for some years, and then my wife returned to work.
>
>No, you said they were very audable.
>
--They are, but one must listen.

>Perhaps your school/teachers/friends turned you to be interested
>in libraries and selfconfident in learning.

--Sorry.  I found the library on my own.  And most of my teachers
believed that I was a pain in the arse.  I was.  And still am.

 if you are not
>lucky enough to have such influence, and all you hear all
>your life that your family and you are inadequate beings,
>you do behave differently.

--Only if you believe what they tell you.  But you do raise a
very interesting question about the Hungarian psyche.  I've never
been a big fan of the "national character" studies that were
popular in social anthropology and sociology some years ago,
because they can easily degenerate into stereotypes.  With that
disclaimer, thought, I suppose that one might make the case that
there is a certain pessimism that is widespread in a culture whose
society has lived in a great deal of tension for a long time.  The
long shadow of Russian Pan-slavism, it might be argued, may have
become such a cultural constant that people raised in that shadow
tend to be gloomier than people raised in a more wide-open and
less inhibiting culture.  I have taught a number of East European
students over the years, mostly Estonians and Czechs, as luck would
have it, and they almost always begin from a very pessimistic position.
I recall one Estonian--who was probably an ethnic Russian, actually--
who kept insisting that there were hidden agendas in areas where there
weren't any that I was aware of.
>>
>> --More so in Europe than here.  Partly due to the enormous expense of
>> the fringe benefits in Europe.
>>
>You mean that they were allowed to be educated...

--No, I mean the extensive provisions of the welfare state.  But here's
another curious thing.  Behind the so-called "Iron Curtain," nobody had
a better deal than the East Germans.  As far as I am able to tell, they
had the most supportive, most thoroughgoing welfare state in the East.
Yet, they couldn't wait to tear down the wall.  Was this just so that
they could get their share of Big Macs?  When we talk about poverty, we
usually limit the discussion to economics.  Here, we have an official
definition of poverty--a poverty line, if you will.  It varies, of course,
by family size, but the current line for a family of four is about
stlg. 9000 per year.  Persons with income below that line or within
130 per cent of it qualify for a number of benefits.  But is there a
poverty of the soul that we have completely ignored?  It may be that
kind of poverty that occasioned the tearing down of the wall and the
rending of the Iron Curtain.  Money may not be the measure of all
things.  End of sermon.  Amen.

Charles
+ - Re: Classical capitalist (was re:jargon) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> living room was an office. I did not draw any salary just paid bills that
> had to be paid and not spent a penny on anything else.

How did you pay the bills without a salary? I can't save, it takes
all us guts to pay the mortgage, and we are still so much better off
than a lot of people.


> I have had a chance to travel about 90% of the world and that statement is
> BS.
>

I've only "done" Asia. Try it on one pound/day for travel/food/board
and you meet some of the 90%, it helps if you stay longer than the
usual tourist period.
By the way even if only 10% left to suffer - it would bother me.
Even if someone managed to prove to me that it is all their own
fault... 
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #173; Biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:
> Date sent:  18-JAN-1995 20:43:52
>
>
> How about people of mixed race/ethnicity?  Are they not wonderful too?
> I'm of mixed racial and ethnic heritage.  Am I less wonderful than a
> "racially pure" Magyar or German or Nigerian?
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What do you mean by "racially pure" Magyar? Is there such kind of animal? ;-)

As far as I know to be Magyar is a cultural and definitly not a racial issue.

Zsoter Andras
+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> --We've got to define this "American Dream" business.  It's pretty
> vague, actually, but I don't think that it is to become as wealthy
> as Bill Gates.  For most people, what they want is to be able to
> have a decent job, a decent place to live, and enough income to
> raise a family or, if not interested in raising a family, to have
> an interesting life.  Most also want to make some kind of a contribution
> to their communities as well.  For most people, their dreams are
> pretty realistic, and not grandiose.
> >

The argument started with the notion that with good honest
sweaty work anyone can make it as a successful capitalist.

>
> --As a matter of fact, we did have two kids while living in places
> with absolutely no decent child-care facilities.  We got by on my salary
> for some years, and then my wife returned to work.
> >
I wonder why didn't you take a brake in your career...
Well, my husband was unemployed a lot, and when working, it
was not enough to live on for four neither... I managed to
get a slightly better paid job, so he looked after baby.
Than we found the only fulltime nursery in the region
which took half of my wages...
(I've found that staying home with babies is incredibly
lonely, boring, mindblowing, hard and shouldn't be necessary)

He did start his own business (plumbing) by the way about 6
years ago now, proving to me further, than if you are not
mean to other people and to yourself, you won't make a successful
capitalist. (ie embarassed to charge the going rate to
struggling people and want to have a bit of spare time -
there again, you save on advertising)
Banks - don't talk to me about banks...


> >You mean that they were allowed to be educated...
>
> --No, I mean the extensive provisions of the welfare state.

Where????? Where????  We couldn't manage on it, and in some respect
we were luckier than others.

> another curious thing.  Behind the so-called "Iron Curtain," nobody had
> a better deal than the East Germans.  As far as I am able to tell, they
> had the most supportive, most thoroughgoing welfare state in the East.
> Yet, they couldn't wait to tear down the wall.  Was this just so that
> they could get their share of Big Macs?  When we talk about poverty, we
> usually limit the discussion to economics.  Here, we have an official
> definition of poverty--a poverty line, if you will.  It varies, of course,
> by family size, but the current line for a family of four is about
> stlg. 9000 per year.  Persons with income below that line or within
> 130 per cent of it qualify for a number of benefits.  But is there a
> poverty of the soul that we have completely ignored?  It may be that
> kind of poverty that occasioned the tearing down of the wall and the
> rending of the Iron Curtain.  Money may not be the measure of all
> things.  End of sermon.  Amen.
>

I thought it was more to do with their closer approximity to
the propaganda, that everything is honey and cake on the other
side of the wall. Certainly any Hungarian visiting from the "West"
did not talk about any sweated labour he needed to get his riches.
It always sounded easy... Even I expected something better when
I left, and I did believe some of the early propaganda (not much
heard from the seventies) about some problems with unemployment
and poverty... 
+ - Re: Horn and the hotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:

> Meanwhile, I read on the Internet news and since then I heard from
relatives
> in Hungary, that we ought not to worry. Some Italian firm offered $120
> million! I don't believe one word of it. Who in his right mind would
offer twi
> ce as much as was the asking price!

Please remeber that one can buy debt free and with debt at significantly
different prices. It is important to distinguish what specifically the
different offers mean.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> On  Sat, January 21  Jeliko wrote:

WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING YOU CLAIM I WROTE? Jeliko
> [snip]

> T>  I'm cognitively
> T>>challenged, as I mentioned before.
> >
> C>--I'm not sure what this means.  You appear to have the usual facility
> C>with language and you know how to look up sources.  Clearly, you are
> C>not stupid.  Well, your viewpoint is a bit naive, but one expects that
> C>from anthropologists!

> See my post to Greg, called "challenge".


> T>
> T>  As for your second point,  even if the
> T>>numbers are absolutely flawless, the indeces can always be faulted,
and
> T>>there is no politicaly neutral way to pick indeces.
> >
> C>--But my point is that if one understand statistics, he or she knows
> C>exactly what they do and how far one can trust them.  I will confess
> C>that I have chosen statistical procedures that make the numbers come
> C>out in favor of the argument I am making.  Editorial reviewers are not
> C>always sophisticated enough to understand what has been done, right in
> C>front of their eyes, and they have accepted the piece for publication.
> C>There is no need to lie.  Just use the procedure that works best.  But
> C>a really knowledgeable person would have known what was done.


> I think we just have different definitions on 'lie'.


> T>> I got everything I know about Go~dell from there.).
> >
> C>--Huh?

> I only said Piaget's book _Structuralism_ was interesting, and as support
> for that claim I added the above sentence.

> T>>
> T>>              Official rates of unemployment (which vastly
> undercalculate the
> T>>actual number of those who have no work), however, continue to hover
> T>>between 9% and 13% with 20% or more in,  Newfoundland.

> C>--Well, most people who deal with these things are well aware of the
> C>problem in unemployment statistics.  The reason they continue to use
> C>a faulty statistic is that it is constant.  But nobody with any
knowledge
> C>of the problem is deceived.  The same is true of the American poverty
> C>measure.  It has serious shortcomings, but to adopt a less flawed
> approach
> C>would make comparisons more difficult.  We continue to use it, knowing
> its
> C>flaws, and therefore are cautious about it.  This is not a major
problem.
> >

> I have this paranoid feeling that reluctance to refine the measuring
tools
> is caused by more then just technical obstacles.


> T>>   The average real
> T>>wage is way downfrom even a decade ago.  Supposedly, there was no
> T>>inflation this year; nevertheless, if your "basket of goods and
> services" is
> T>>different from what Stats Can uses you might experience a rise in your
> T>>cost of living, as I have.

> C>--Again, to change to a more realistic measure would confuse more than
> C>help.  The basket of goods and services has the argument for continuity
> C>going for it, and people who use the measure know of its shortcomings,
> C>but to change would engender more confusion.  If you understand what is
> C>going on, it's not a serious problem.  By any measure, inequality is
> C>increasing, and there is little academic dispute about that.


> I have this paranoid feeling that reluctance to refine the measuring
tools
> is caused by more then just technical obstacles.



> T>>terms  like: 'advanced', 'bakward', 'civilized', 'primitive', etc.  as
> T>>unscientific and ideological.

> C>--Sure.  This is why it is important for people to make their values
> C>explicit.

> [snip -something about value free]

> T>>No, but I don't go out of my way to allow more ideology into my
> labeling
> T>>then must remain after I have done all I can to compensate. (Theory of
> T>>measurment again)

> C>--Well, I almost posted a note to Eva Balogh on this issue.  I would
have
> C>said that she should remember that you are a post-modernist.  I was
> C>trained in analytic philosophy.  This is a forerunner to what is now
> C>called deconstruction.  The difference is that deconstructionists
accept
> C>sociological Marxism without applying their own criterion to it.  Most
> C>of your postings reek of the post-modernist world view, which is quite
> C>anti-Western.

> I think this is the third time I've been accused of being a Post
Modernist.
>  To repeat, I cannot be a Post Modernist because I find their writings
too
> difficult and have not been able to read even one primary source.  I came
> to my present intellectual position based on my life experiences and the
> following : The anthropological ideas of Boas and his disciples, Ruth
> Benedict and Margaret Mead,  also Gregory Bateson and what he brings from
> The British Isles and his dad's evolutionary biology; The linguistic
ideas
> of  Saussiere as well as Sapir, I found the distinction between
discriptive
> and prescriptive grammar particulary enlightening when I was a freshman;
> the structuralism of Piaget and Levi-Strauss,  also the cognitive
> development work  and genetic epistemology of Piaget and the
psychological
> ideas of R.D. Laing; finally and most recently, Karl Mannheim's Sociology
> of Knowledge.  You will note that Marx isn't even on my list.  If I
> sometimes sound like a marxist, it is because I read a bunch of stuff
like
> that when I was studying economic anthropology and political
anthropology,
> mostly studies of traditional versus modern markets and "dependency
> theory".  It was during this time that I learned about H.A. Innis' work
as
> well as the marxist Ernesto Laclau.  Eric Wolf and Peter Worsley came to
my
> attention here too.  I am aware that all this represents a skewed sample,
> but I think it is underrepresented in the hegemonic discourrse (in
> Gramsci's sense) that rules everywhere but in academe.  I really don't
want
> to upset anyone, least of all Eva B.  But  I think you could all use some
> information from someone nearer the bottom then you and looking up.

> C>The problem as I see it is that post-modernism is a Western view as
well,
> but C>most post-modernists don't seem to know it.


> Of course it is a Western view, how could it possibly be anything else?
> Marxism is a bourgeois ideology, so what?  I think you confuse me with
Post
> Modernists because I share with them my critical attitude to Western Civ
> and because they too are talking about points of view and the importance
of
> understanding subjectivity.  But this is nothing new.  I seem to remember
> passages in the New Testament about beams and specks as well as the right
> way to compare the value of sacrifice sacrifice.
> As for my own view of Western Civilization, I liked the scene in the
movie
> Ghandi, were on arriving in the London Airport to negotiate India's
> independence, a reporter asked him, " Mr Ghandi, what do you think of
> Western Civilization". And he said, "I think its a good Idea."


> Regards,

> Tibor
+ - Re: Catching up (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant writes:
> Can you see no difference between the owner of the corner shop
> or a plumber employing 2 in his (very small) business  and
> those of "big business"?
The reason they started is that they had faith in their ability to make a
go of the business.

> Whatever the media image, if you have shares/
> capital with a return of of more than say $60 000/year - you can choose
> not to work all your life. Is that ethical?

You are always complaining that you do not make enough money and now claim
that making money is not ethical. Now I understand your choice of your
living standard.

> If 40 hours of mindblowing, sweaty work is not adequate to earn
> the essentials/non-essentials  others seem to get with ease (see adverts)
> I can see a motivation to crime and "idleness".
If you read the discussion it was about building up capital by working MORE
than 40 hours. To those who do not like their work it will always be
"mindblowing and sweaty". BTW what's wrong with sweat? It is not a disease.
> >
> > Tibor Benke writes:
> > business
> > > men and women who usually own some franchise business and work 70
hours a
> >
> > Now you give examples of your "robber capitalists"? I thought
> > according to you these guys did not exist.
> >
> > Jeliko
Jeliko
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke informs us:
>the forest industry (the folks mowing down
> ancient rainforests as fast as they can to turn giant trees into tissue
> paper and newsprint) made unprecedented profits.

Pray tell me which rainforest species is being converted into tissue paper
and newsprint. I know it rains a lot in some parts of BC, but it is not a
defined rainforest area.

Jeliko
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 23 Jan 1995  wrote:

> actually supports my position and not my opponents'. Just for a fuller
> understanding of the question here are a few dates. Padua = 1220; Pavia =
> 1361; Rome = 1303; Florence = 1349; Naples = 1225; Bologna = 1076; Paris =
> 1150-1170; Montpellier = 12th century; Toulouse = 1229; and several other
> French medieval universities like Avignon, Grenoble, Orange, etc. The first
> Spanish university was established in 1243; first first Portugese one, the
> University of Lisbon, in 1290; the first Oxford college, University College
> was founded in 1249. University of Cambridge was organized between 1231 and
> 1233. University of Edinburgh was established late: 1583.
>
> Now, let's go to Central Europe. Prague = 1347; Cracow = 1364; Vienna = 1365;
> Heidelberg = 1386; Cologne = 1388; Leipzig = 1409; Tubingen = 1477; Konigsber
g
>  = 1544; University of Vilnius (Polish) = 1579; University of Dorpat/Tartu
> (German) = 1632; University of Moscow = 1755; University  of Sofia = 1888;
> University of Iasi = 1860; University of Bucharest = 1864.

> claim handy. But let's not fall for it and let's just admit that Eastern
> Europe was considerably behind Western Europe in practically all aspects of
> life. That is nothing to be ashamed of. Instead, we should all get inspired
> and do our darndest to change it in the twenty-first century. Slovaks as well
> as Hungarians.

Eva,

You are bringing up examples of Prague, Heidelberg, Cologne, etc.  Now do
you consider these Eastern or Western Europe?  Are you saying that for
example Germany, which is where Cologne and Heidelberg are, historically
behind the west?  Your example of Sofia, Bucharest and Moscow are well
taken, but now where do you draw the line of Western Europe?  It seems to
me that this is not very clear to anyone.  Obviously in the latter part
of the 20th Century the difference in political systems was one of the
most important factors that decided the question whether a country was
considered Western or Eastern Europe.  But how about before then?
According to your argument I would determine that Germany is part of the
East, since Universities there were founded much later than in France and
in Spain.


Zoli
)
+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant writes:
> > > If the proletar dictatorship includes ALL PROLETARS actively,
> > And if they do no want to

> Than it is not a proletar-dictatorship. Thank you.

Now that is a new definition for dictatorship, predestining 100%
partcipation. IMHO, such can never be achieved volontarily.
> > > lovely wither. And this is still not utopia, should happen in
> > > 20 years or we all had it.
> >
> > Wanna bet?
> >
> > Jeliko

> Now that is a capitalist! Putting me in a no-win situation.
> OK, I really wouldn't mind your win, I want a peaceful and good
> life for my children, believe it or not.

>From the brief resume, I guess you are equiping your children to be good
Europeans, with multiple language capabilities and broader than typical
interests. (Although I am still in favor of technical education for
breaking out of the rut). The ability of knowing more than one language is
a multiplier not an additive. Everything else you know, is known in other
languages also. You remind me of the story of the father who had two
children, one was an optimist the other a pessimist. He wanted to cure it
and got a bunch of toys for the pessimist who started crying that the toys
will break and then he will have nothing to play with. For the optimist he
loaded up the garage with horse manure and told him to shovel it out. The
optimist was merrily shoveling the manure and when the father asked him why
is he so happy, he answered Daddy, Daddy there must be a pony hereabouts.

Jeliko.
+ - Restless Farewell(*) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Those who found my contributions annoying will be happy to know I've
unsubscribed.  If anyone wants to communicate with me, please send private
e-mail to .  I will, however be away from computers for a week
or so, so don't expect an immediate response.  I would like to thank all
those who responded to any of my missives, it was interesting.

It's been, as they say, a slice,

Tibor Benke

*Yet another allusion to that Zimmerman fellow.
+ - Washington, D.C. - Eloadas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szerdan, Januar 25-en , 18:30-kor

          Beszelgetes  a  Kossuth Hazban
          Hajdu Gabor erdelyi szenatorral .

A szenator ur a Kulturalis Alapitvany Erdelyert szervezet
meghivasara 4 hetes eloadas koruton lesz az Egyesult Allamokban
es Canadaban .


       Kossuth Haz
2001 Massachusetts Ave., N.W.
  Washington, DC 20036

phone : (202)-328-2630
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko, being a bit pedantic, wants to know:

>Tibor Benke informs us:
>>the forest industry (the folks mowing down
>> ancient rainforests as fast as they can to turn giant trees into tissue
>> paper and newsprint) made unprecedented profits.
>
>Pray tell me which rainforest species is being converted into tissue paper
>and newsprint. I know it rains a lot in some parts of BC, but it is not a
>defined rainforest area.

I don't know the precise species (there are several species of pine and
fir), but the ecological zones (Clayoquot Sound, for example) are called
_Northern Temperate Rainforest_ as opposed to _Tropical Rainforest_.

Tibor
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Tibor Benke informs us:
> >the forest industry (the folks mowing down
> > ancient rainforests as fast as they can to turn giant trees into tissue
> > paper and newsprint) made unprecedented profits.
>
> Pray tell me which rainforest species is being converted into tissue paper
> and newsprint. I know it rains a lot in some parts of BC, but it is not a
> defined rainforest area.
>
> Jeliko

Actually I've been to a seminar not long ago, I was told that
paper industry only uses the leftovers of the construction and furniture
trade (also ours, the welldeveloped ones), and otherwise grows it's
own trees. Pass the buck... 
+ - Re: Horn and the hotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Eva Balogh writes:
>
> > Meanwhile, I read on the Internet news and since then I heard from
> relatives
> > in Hungary, that we ought not to worry. Some Italian firm offered $120
> > million! I don't believe one word of it. Who in his right mind would
> offer twi
> > ce as much as was the asking price!
>
> Please remeber that one can buy debt free and with debt at significantly
> different prices. It is important to distinguish what specifically the
> different offers mean.
>
> Regards,Jeliko

My reading of the HVG article suggests that even with the debts
"For the payment of $57 millions the AGH would gain $72 million
worth of assets". An interview with one of the managers (Hotel
Raba, Gyor) suggests that some of the lesser hotels are still
profitable and that they were to be modernised from the money
the 3 four star hotels made, as their (the older ones's) profits
were partly invested for the construction of the new ones.
I am not fond of Horn, but asset-stripping is not nice.

+ - Discussions on this list. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hullo everyone!!

A request from a hard pressed academic.

I have been a member of this list for several months and am
finding it difficult to cope with the stream of thoughts,
anecdotes, recipes, barbed criticism etc. that circulates
on the list.

Although a small (very small) proportion of the
contributions made are of interest to me and in fairness
the list has been of some help with my work, I do find that
much of the 'discussions' could be sent direct to the individuals
concerned rather than to the list.  I am finding that I am
simply deleting most of the messages.

Frankly, I am not interested in the self-opinionated rhetoric
of some of the lists contributors.  I could name names but
am concerned about the legal consequences!!! :-)))))

Therefore would it be possible for those of you who wish to
indulge in idle chat to pease do so outside of this list and on an
individual basis.

What do list members think?
I am certain I will get back some comments thinking ill of
my comments. But what happened to free speech!!!

Many thanks for reading this.
+ - austrian governm.information about NPP mochovce (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

NUCLEAR POWER PLANT MOCHOVCE (SLOVAKIA, 120 KM FROM VIENNA)

** Note by Franz Meister, Austrian Federal Environmental Agency:

This is a first information by the Austrian Government related to the ongoing
Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) and Public Participation Procedure (PPP)
in connection with the construction of the Nuclear Power Plant Mochovce,
for which the project planners (Electricite de France and Slovenske
Elektrarna) seek major funding from the European Bank for Reconstruction
and Development (EBRD).

Based on the EBRD guidelines, EIA and PPP have to take place also in
affected neighbouring countries like Austria.

This Assessment still refers to a public hearing planned
by the Austrian Government for January 23/24 at the Austrian Conference
Center, Vienna.

This hearing had to be cancelled due to the absence of a confirmation
to participate by the project planners (EdF and SE) in spite of several
official invitations.

This unwillingness to participate is in contradiction to the Guidelines
of the EBRD for Public Participation Procedures.

For more information please contact: 

***

NUCLEAR POWER PLANT MOCHOVCE (SLOVAKIA, 120 KM FROM VIENNA) -
First Assessment of the Project by the Forum for Nuclear Affairs
on behalf of the Austrian Federal Government


CASE HISTORY AND BACKGROUND

In 1984, construction of a Nuclear Power Plant (NPP), to consist of four
440 MW units of the Soviet reactor type VVER-440/213 began near Mochovce,
a small town in the south-east of the Slovak Republic. After the collapse
of the Soviet Union work was stopped in 1991/92 because of financial
reasons.

A similar situation exists in other Central and Eastern European
countries in transition. The completion of about a dozen Soviet VVER reactors
of the Mochovce type, in construction before the collapse of communism, was
halted.

In the West, the number of planned and commissioned NPPs has declined
considerably in the last 15 to 20 years due to economic considerations
and because of the strong resistance against this technology from the
general public.

Hopes to develop so-called "passive" or "inherently" safe reactors,
thereby increasing the acceptance amongst the population, have noticeably
decreased. Anyhow, the realisation of such NPP concepts is yet a long
time away.

Consequently, the Western nuclear industry is in a difficult economic
position and attempts to find other markets and suitable financing
possibilities. The completion of Soviet design NPPs with the help of
Western credits is one of the few remaining areas of hope for the
industry.


THE PROJECT

Besides the RBMK - Series (e.g. Chernobyl) the Soviet Union also
developed a series of pressurised water reactors. The best known models,
in chronological order of development, are :

- VVER-440/230 (e.g. Bohunice V-1)
- VVER-440/213 (e.g. Bohunice V-2 and Dukovany)
- VVER-1000 (e.g. Temelin)

The VVER-440/213 concept, planned for Mochovce, dates back to the
Seventies and is, therefore, older.

It might be said in favour of this type of reactor that it is known as
tried and tested and that its operational reliability is comparable with
that of Western reactors.

The disadvantage of this model is, that in comparison with Western
reactors, there are comparatively few precautions to limit the effects of
serious accidents and consequential damage. This shortcoming meant that
wherever this model came into the Western sphere of influence, drastic
measures had to be taken. Important design modifications were carried out
on all four units in Finland (Loviisa) and Cuba (Juragua), before
construction started. In (East)Germany, work on four units already
started in Greifswald but construction was stopped after unification.

The former Slovak Electricity Company "Slovensky Energeticky Podnik"
(SEP), which has become the "Slovenske Elektrarne" (SE) share holding
company, joined forces with a French firm, Electricite de France (EDF)
and the German Electricity Utilities Bayernwerke AG and PreussenElektra
AG, to obtain funds for the completion and commissioning of two of the
four Mochovce units and installation of Western safety technology.

The completed NPP would be owned by EMO, a joint stock company set up by
EDF with a prospective 51 % participation and SE which may possibly be
joined by Bayernwerke AG after the credit approval by EBRD.

After commissioning both reactors, anticipated for 1996/97, SE is
supposed to lease the NPP from EMO and accept full responsibility for the
day-to-day operations.

It is also planned that the Slovak operator assume damage liability,
though on a restricted scale. (Neither the Slovak Republic nor the
equipment manufacturers or the sponsors will be responsible for accident
liability.

SE and EDF estimate the funds necessary for completion at DM 1,3 billion
(about AS 9 billion). Credits of about DM 400 million (AS 2,8 billion)
are to be raised from the European Bank for Reconstruction and
Development (EBRD), the remainder from the European Investment Bank
(EIB), as well as from the companies involved and from French and German
export credit organisations.

According to SE/EDF, credits shall be repaid with income generated from
selling electricity from the Mochovce NPP.


The EBRD

After the political upheavals in Central and Eastern Europe, the European
Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) was established in 1990
with the aim of helping these countries in their transition towards a
market-oriented economy, and to promote private and entrepreneurial
initiatives. At the same time, the Bank is committed to support in all
its activities sustainable development. At present, the Bank has 57
members (donors and recipients). They include Austria with a share of
2,28 % of the capital stock. The largest single contributor (10 %) is the
US; France, Germany, Italy and Japan are each contributing 8,52 %.

In its "Environmental Procedures" the Bank has laid down that approval of
credit for certain projects shall be conditional on carrying out an
Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) including public hearings. To
conform with these regulations, project documents for NPP Mochovce are
being published, public hearings will be held and written statements
shall be accepted within a period of 70 days (from 8 December 1994 until
17 February 1995).

The credit request for the Mochovce NPP - EBRD's first nuclear project -
also appears to have raised controversies within the Bank. (The World
Bank, generally, refuses loans for nuclear projects). The EBRD imposed
additional further conditions for the approval of the Mochovce loan:

- "Going nuclear" must be the least cost option.

- The NPP must be up to Western safety standards.

- The oldest nuclear reactors in the Slovak Republic, Bohunice V-1 (two
440 MW units) must be shut down on commissioning of NPP Mochovce.

- Public hearings must be held in the Slovak Republic. If so requested,
they must also be held in neighbouring countries.

The EBRD has made credit approval conditional upon an Environmental
Impact Assessment including public hearings, but under Slovak Law this is
not a part of the licensing procedure. Therefore, the Slovak authorities
are not bound to any possible conditions of the Bank, which might result
from an Environmental Impact Assessment. They might only be included into
the loan agreement. However, powers of control and enforcement after
credit approval are limited. At most, the EBRD can demand early repayment
of the credit, if its conditions are not fulfilled.


THE POSITION OF THE AUSTRIAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

In a policy statement in 1991 and again in 1994, the Austrian Federal
Government has committed itself to a "Central Europe without Nuclear
Power/Energy".

>From this perspective the completion and commissioning of Mochovce NPP
would be a step in the wrong direction, whose effects would be felt for
decades.

Over and above, the Federal Government also realises that completion
could trigger off a multitude of similar plans. As a result, the number
of potentially dangerous NPPs and the attendant risks might go up
considerably.


AIDE MEMOIRE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO THE EBRD

In an Aide Memoire of November 1994, drawn up by the Forum for Nuclear
Affairs on behalf of the Federal Chancellor, the Austrian Federal
Government expressed its concerns about the Mochovce Project, referring
to:

- the attempt to combine Western and Eastern technology at this advanced
project stage,

- the close connection between economic efficiency and safety levels
aimed for,

- the long-term commitment to large units for electricity generation at a
time of great uncertainty regarding future demand, and

- the pledge to repay a foreign-exchange credit from sales of
electricity, at a time of where there is too much electricity available.

It was, therefore, requested that

- the Environmental Impact Assessment, the Least Cost Study and the
Safety Report should be published,

- in the light of the specific safety issues of the project, a
Probabilistic Safety Analysis should form the basis for decision making,
and

- maximum priority should be given to achieving high internationally
accepted safety standards.

In addition, the Austrian Government confirmed its proposal of a
comprehensive energy partnership with the Slovak Republic.

Despite the limited instruments at its disposal under international law
and aware of the strong clash of interests and the voting situation
within the EBRD, the Austrian Federal Government will continue its
efforts along the lines of a Central Europe without Nuclear Power/Energy
and thus minimise the risk for the Austrian population and, at the same
time, make a step in the direction of a sustainable energy policy.


PRACTICAL PROCEDURE

In view of the Environmental Impact Assessment involving public
participation now initiated, the Austrian Government shall act as
follows:

1. offer all Austrian citizens the possibility to form their own opinion.

To bring this about

- all project documents of the sponsors are being made available to
Austrian citizens in the original English version, as well as in a
specially prepared German translation,

- a telephone "hot-line" (phone: 0660/5660) has been provided, to supply
further information to all interested parties, and

- a public hearing has been scheduled for 23 and 24 January at the Vienna
Austria Center at which the operators shall be represented. All Austrian
citizens are invited to attend,

2. documents shall be carefully checked by independent experts, to narrow
down unresolved questions and provide a basis for an official Austrian
statement.


FUNDAMENTAL POINTS

Support for the construction of Nuclear Power Plants, which would never
be approved in the countries of origin constitutes an enormous security
risk in view of the transboundary effects of nuclear accidents.

But Austria must also listen to the arguments, presented in favour of a
completion of the Mochovce NPP:

On commissioning of Mochovce NPP, Bohunice V-1 NPP, which was declared a
major risk after being carefully studied by an Austrian fact-finding
commission in 1990, could be shut down.

This is one condition of the EBRD and also the fundamental assumption of
the Least Cost Study

but:

In the meantime, Bohunice V-1 NPP is being reconstructed and improved
with a great deal of expenditure and personnel. However, Western safety
standards cannot be reached.

The first question that arises is to what extend a fundamentally
reconstructed Bohunice V-1 actually constitutes a higher total risk than
the hybrid Mochovce NPP (with a combination of Soviet and Western
technology), which would be operating for, at least, double the time of
Bohunice V-1. Essentially, the answer to that question depends on the
levels of technological safety that can be achieved at Mochovce.

As the Probabilistic Safety Analysis (PSA), which would be the suitable
instrument for comparative safety analyses, shall be worked out only
after commissioning of the Mochovce NPP, any assessment made now can only
be based on the Safety Report, contained in the project documents.

Numerous indications - such as the significant investments already made
and planned - have made the experts doubt whether the authorities will
really shut down Bohunice V-1 NPP upon commissioning Mochovce. In this
regard, the Least Cost Study, undertaken on behalf of the EBRD, also
contains contradicting details. In any case, it cannot be excluded that,
for quite some time, both Nuclear Power Plants will be in operation.

It is claimed that Mochovce is the least cost solution to cover Slovak
electricity requirements after the shut-down of Bohunice V-1.

but:

The electricity needs in the Slovak Republic have fallen drastically in
the past few years. Research has shown, that measures to bring about
higher efficiencies on the consumer side could reduce electricity demands
even further.

For various reasons, Mochovce NPP neither contributes to the desired
diversification of electricity generation and the provision of a
decentralised system of supply nor to the long-term and sustainable
development of Slovakia.


THE PROJECT DOCUMENTS

The project documents, made available by the operators in the course of
the public participation process, consist of four parts with a total of
about 1100 pages. The English documents were translated into German and
submitted to all provinces. There they are available for inspection at
the district authority offices and at the capital's district offices.

Apparently, the published English version of some of the documents -
especially the Safety Report - is already a translation, which every now
and then introduces some ambiguity. As a result, the German translation
is not always what it should be.

The following provides a brief summary and outline of the objectives of
the individual documents. Attached is a first evaluation of the document
by Austrian experts which can, obviously, not be final. The operators
have granted 70 days for a study of papers, including background papers
referred to and submitting a statement by experts.


PART I. PROJECT DESCRIPTION

This document consists of a Project description, which is rather general
on many important points.


PART II. LEAST COST STUDY

To substantiate its decision, the EBRD commissioned a "Least-Cost-
Analysis" from the consultant firm Putnam, Hayes and Bartlett (PHB).

POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVES

This analysis was carried out in order to determine whether the
completion of Mochovce NPP is really the cheapest replacement for the two
V-1 reactor units of Bohunice NPP. Therefore, in addition to Mochovce a
number of alternatives was studied:

- "Base-load options" of electricity generation (permanently operating
power stations, using combined cycle gas turbines, conventional coal or
lignite fired plants, coal gasification or atmospheric fluidised bed
technologies, as well as the construction of new Nuclear Power Plants,

- "other supply options", such as combined heat and power, electricity
imports, conversion of Mochovce 1 & 2 to gas, as well as

- "demand side options", such as possibilities for energy conservation,
load shifting or switching from electricity to gas or coal.

The study was completed in two phases. Phase I primarily analyses the
cost of completing Mochovce in comparison to alternative base-load power
generation options. Phase II has extended the analysis by measures to
increase efficiency of generation and analysed the Slovak total
electricity requirements on the basis of different demand development
scenarios. Of course, the latter have a retroactive effect on costing the
alternatives, analysed in Phase I.


BASIC ASSUMPTIONS

An analysis of this type needs to build on numerous assumptions. These
involve a measure of uncertainty and require a certain range of
interpretation, which will reflect on the final outcome. The consultants,
therefore, have chosen a maximum probability base case.

Lowest additional total costs served as criteria for prioritising the
options studied. Money spent in the past and no longer available for
future use was, therefore, not considered. Consequently, expected
completion costs for Mochovce were included. The studies of alternatives
considered both the additional capital costs as well as essential future
costs of fuel, maintenance and operation and expenditure on offsetting
damage to the environment, disposal of fuel rods and decommissioning.

All costs were related to a base year (1994) actual value to provide for
effective comparison. The rate of discount employed means that present
costs rank higher when compared to costs arising in the distant future.
The client commissioning the study had originally demanded a rate of
discount between a minimum of 8 and a maximum of 15 percent, but reduced
it to 10 percent after completion of stage one and talks with the EBRD.
Explanations offered for choosing lower discount rates will still have to
be scrutinised - at any rate they favour the economic viability of
completing Mochovce 1 and 2.


RESULTS

At a rate of discount of 10 %, the Phase I base case study concludes that
the completion of Mochovce 1 and 2 is the lowest cost option for the
replacement of Bohunice V-1, with the second best option being the
construction of two combined cycle gas turbines, closely followed by
conventional coal fired power stations operating under "Western"
environmental regulations.

For Phase II the cost difference between completing Mochovce and
construction of two combined cycle gas turbine units is only small.
Whilst the actual value for the total costs of Mochovce amounts to DM
8,915.6 million, the total cost for two combined cycle gas turbine power
stations was calculated at DM 9,380.6 million. So in accordance with the
study's base assumption and including all future costs, the completion of
Mochovce will only cost DM 465 million less than the construction of two
combined cycle gas turbines units. The saving is, therefore, less than
five percent.


ASSESSMENT OF THE RESULTS

The study is based on numerous assumptions which fall in two categories:

- assumptions which are externally imposed guidelines and whose validity
has not been studied; and

- assumptions which must be made because more exact details are missing
or future projections must be estimated (e.g. future electricity demands
or energy prices).

If one of the external guidelines does not apply, then the results are
also invalid. Below we refer to just two assumptions:

- It is assumed that Bohunice V-1 will shut down in 1999. The results of
the study are invalid if that is not the case. (Any later shut down would
be to the detriment of Mochovce).

- For Phase I it is assumed that the existing mix of baseload, medium and
peak load capacity in the Slovak Republic will remain unchanged during
the period under review. If this is not the case, then the study results
of Phase I are automatically no longer valid. For Phase II this
assumption applies only in a limited sense.

Phase II investigates in more detail whether the second assumption
applies. Projections, therefore, looked 20 years ahead and identified
changes reducing the Mochovce cost advantage found for Phase I. In view
of the expected operating period of Mochovce NPP of more than 20 years it
cannot be overlooked that this lengthening of the period under review may
result in further cost disadvantages for Mochovce.

The second category of assumptions, largely documented in the study,
permits a certain range which may be considered plausible from a
scientist's point of view. Naturally, the choice made within this range
influences the result. The study's net cost advantage for completing
Mochovce must be see from this point of view.

The cost difference of 5 percent for the second best choice (construction
of two combined cycle gas turbine power stations) is too small to
conclude that the completion of Mochovce should be the optimum. In
general, ranges of up to 15 percent mean that proposed alternatives may
be considered equivalent.

In the course of a more detailed analysis of the study, individual
assumptions must be checked for plausibility and to what extent they
influence the final outcome. One thing is already certain: Considering
the result of the study and due to the small cost differential between
completion of Mochovce NPP and the construction of two combined gas cycle
turbine power stations, the final decision can only be made by bringing
in additional aspects.

Definitely, efficiency could not be the only argument referred to.

Finally, one should bear in mind that the original scenario on which the
Least-Cost Study had been based (alternative sources of power to replace
capacity now generated by Bohunice V-1 NPP) had been narrowly defined and
that a broader concept of energy policy would also allow for other
solutions.


PART III. SAFETY REPORT

Details contained in the "Safety Report" represent a summary or extracts
from a comprehensive collection of documents which usually form the
safety report for a Nuclear Power Plant.

The Report was worked out by Electricit# de France (EDF), partly together
with SE, and consists of three parts - a Summary and two Appendices.
Appendix A, co-authored by SE, describes modifications already carried
out by SE on the original Russian design, Appendix B details additional
safety improvements proposed by the Western partners.

The Safety Report views reconstruction of Mochovce NPP in a favourable
light.


PROPOSED SAFETY IMPROVEMENTS

Safety improvements are set out for about 40 areas, graded as necessary,
desirable or possible.

After being commissioned by the Federal Chancellor of Austria and while
studying Mochovce NPP Vienna University, together with international
experts and specialists, identified the major problem areas of the
reactor type VVER-440/213. The present scrutiny of the Safety Report is
based on the preparatory studies:

All major safety issues shall be addressed and exhaustively dealt with.
A more detailed analysis is required to establish if
- the proposed solutions conform to Western safety standards and
- which steps have already been taken or shall be implemented before
commissioning, and which are to be delayed until a very distant future.


TIME SCHEDULE FOR SAFETY IMPROVEMENTS

Documents submitted do not include the usual plan detailing the
sequencing and dove-tailing of measures proposed.

In particular, it remains to be seen to what extent it is intended to
commission the Nuclear Power Plant as soon as possible and add-on major
improvements later only after commissioning, i.e. during operation only.
The Report indicates that some of the proposed measures will need to be
supported by extensive studies, unlikely to be completed within the
construction time stipulated.

This, however, would be tantamount to no final plant design being yet
available. Neither would it be possible to furnish conclusive proof that
proposed safety upgradings actually conformed to "Western Standards and
Practices", as insisted on by the EBRD.


COST EVALUATION

Apart from total completion costs of AS 9 billion the Report does not
quote any breakdown regarding individual upgradings. References to size
and scope of proposed upgradings can only be deducted after providing
cost estimates of individual modifications. Such estimates would be
particularly important in view of evaluations made for other partly
completed Nuclear Power Plants of the same type which go considerably
beyond costs quoted for Mochovce. Already 5 years ago, upgrading a unit
being tested prior to full commissioning at Greifswald Nuclear Power
Plant in Germany was estimated at something like AS14 billion, as against
AS 9 billion for two Mochovce units. This gives rise to concerns that the
cost difference is due to cutbacks in the sphere of operational safety,
particularly if it cannot be explained by either the degree of completion
or the low domestic prices.


TECHNICAL STANDARDS

Special attention will have to be paid to technical standards applicable
as there is no suitable set of regulations for the proposed hybrid plant
to be installed at Mochovce.

The Safety Report leads one to assume that French, German, Slovak and, in
some areas, American regulations shall be used as standards for the
technical modifications. As the individual sets of regulations form a
consistent whole, a blending of various concepts is bound to cause
problems.


MAJOR SAFETY ASPECTS

Originally, the Soviet type VVER-440/213 to be provided for Mochovce was
not to have the "containment" prescribed for Western pressurised water
reactors. The latter not only prevents radioactivity to escape into the
atmosphere in case of serious accidents, but also protects the reactor
from external influences, as might be caused by an aeroplane crash.
However, containment had to be foreseen for the earlier mentioned
VVER-equipped units in Finland and Cuba. Retrofitting containment later
would be very expensive and impractical.

For Mochovce only a "confinement" is planned, although the Safety Report
refers to "containment".

Another basic concern is presented by the unfavourable positioning of the
turbines: In case of any break of the high speed turbines, flying
sections might cause damage to safety relevant components. At this
advanced stage of the project, however, it is too late to rotate the
turbines by 90 degrees - as was done in Finland and Cuba. The
effectiveness of the alternative safety measures proposed needs careful
study. A similar situation exists regarding other safety relevant
questions, e.g. fire precautions and earthquake safety.


IV. ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT

SE commissioned a British firm, AEA Technology to carry out the
Environmental Impact Assessment.

Following Austrian practice this report called "Environmental Impact
Assessment" and presented by the operators but not yet studied by
government-appointed experts, should only be regarded as an
"Environmental Impact Statement".


CONTENT OF THE REPORT

The section on "Environmental Impact Assessment" is the most
comprehensive of the four Reports. It mainly lists results of a study
into environmental consequences as a result of building and operating
Mochovce Nuclear Power Plant. Environmental impacts of an alternative
combined cycle gas turbine power station are covered in a short
paragraph. In addition, summaries of other reports are included.
(Originally, SE wanted to release only this partial study for the public
participation process. The "Safety Report" and a "Least-Cost-Study" were
only published after urgent requests from the Austrian Federal Government
and various Non-Governmental Organisations).

The Report limits itself mainly to the operation of the Nuclear Power
Station and contains few or no details about the environmental impact of
the remaining fuel cycle (e.g. uranium mining, manufacture of fuel rods,
final storage, transport). Also, it only looks at normal operation and
design-based accidents (according to plant design these are called
"controllable accidents"). Evaluations of the effects of serious events
bigger than design-based accidents have not been included. By omitting
effects on an area beyond a radius of 100 km (or some 70 miles), the
study does not consider potential consequences for Austria.

In view of the Least-Cost-Study's minimal differential as to the
efficiency of the options under study, one might have expected that
environmental impacts of alternative solutions - especially the higher
efficiencies - would be given more coverage. As possible climate changes
due to CO2 emissions from burning fossil fuels are very often used as an
argument against combined cycle gas turbine power stations, this range of
questions ought to have been studied as well. But this issue has lost
much of its importance due to potentially significant energy savings when
working on combined heat and power.

As early as at the beginning of March 1994, the Forum for Nuclear
Affairs had submitted an exhaustive statement concerning the subject
matter on an Environmental Impact Assessment, as it was then seen. This
paper will now be used to find out whether other important items are
missing.


RESULT OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT

The study concludes that changes of the environment do not go beyond the
range of international legal standards.

Any release of radioactive substances during normal operation would
remain clearly below admissible international limits, as far as
immissions are concerned, no inadmissible loads or accumulations are
expected, and all non-radioactive and thermal emissions would be minimal.

Environmental monitoring, to some extent already in place for
corroboration of evidence, as well as the emergency safety concepts have
been found sufficiently in agreement with international standards.

As far as geology was concerned, Mochovce NPP was situated on a
structural plate, largely protected against earthquakes.

Though radiation exposure of personnel could still be improved, it was
supposed to be below admissible limits already.


CONFIRMATION OF FINDINGS

On close examination it is found that in many cases statements cannot be
verified directly as they very often refer to so-called "grey literature"
- reports which are not accessible to the public. Without these
documents, however, scientific proof of these statements is impossible.
The project team from the Vienna University is trying to obtain
additional papers from the authors of the study or from the operators.

Quoted scientific references include older as well as most recent reports
of domestic and foreign origin. Regrettably however, in many areas one
finds departures from standard international practice, because major
sources have gone unquoted (for example wind observations are given for
two periods without any indication of place, height, etc. at which the
measurements were carried out or dates of publication).


EVALUATION OF THE RESULTS

Any evaluation of results is hardly possible as long as these are not
reproducible. Compared with similar analyses for other plants, the
assessed dose loads for crucial population groups appears to be too low.
Without additional documents it is not possible to find out more about
the reasons behind these discrepancies.

There is a lack of information on essential issues. Some examples are:

- Geology and Hydrogeology:
References to general information about the region only, but no results
of local studies. There are contradicting statements about the geological
formation on which the Nuclear Power Plant stands (volcanic rocks -
andesite formation or loose tertiary rocks, marl and limestone).

- Danger of Earthquakes:
The issue of actual seismic zone activity is not addressed; recognised
methods for a definition of maximum possible quakes lead to higher
maximum intensities than those quoted in the report.

- Environmental Monitoring:
Many details about determination of alpha activity in the waste air,
details of sampling plans, record keeping of environmental samples, etc.
are missing.

- Provisions for Accidents:
An official disaster control concept, approved by the authorities, is
under discussion, but information on measures, equipment, training of
specialists, as well as the incorporation of other organisations and
states is not sufficient.

It is intended that the experts of the Austrian Federal Government will
raise all unresolved questions with the operators during the Hearing.
Possible new insights will then be included in the final Austrian
statement on the Mochovce project.
+ - Misquote, sorry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Jeliko,

I quoted Charles and attributed it to you.  I apologize.

Tibor
+ - Re: Szoba/Lakaskeresis Budapesten (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I tried contacting you through your e-mail address but no luck.

We may be able to accommodate you for at least 5 months (Feb to July) and
could help with alternative accommodations after that. Please contact me
directly by E-mail (soon) for further information.

Peter Krell at e-mail 
or
Eva Nagy at e-mail 


 wrote:
: In article
>
 writes:
: >From: 
: >Subject: Szoba/Lakaskeresis Budapesten
: >Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 12:54:10 LOCAL

: >Februar kvzepetvl keresek szobat vagy lakast Budapesten kb.10 honapra.
: >Minden infoirt halas leszek.
: >Tudnilik Becsbvl stipendiummal Budapesten mrom meg a diploma munkamat.
: >Ha valaki tud segiteni jelentkezzen az kvvetkezv IMAIL cimen:

: >      
: >          vagy
: >      

: >elvre is kvszvnem mindenkinek
: >                           ROBERT

: >ui. valaszt angolul, nemet|l vagy magyrul is megertem!!
+ - HUNGARIAN NETWORK (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE HUNGARIAN NETWORK.
THANKS.
PAMELA MCQUIDE
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:

>May I remind Tony that the discussion on universities began by my saying that
>there were two earlier attempts at establishing a university on the territory
>of the Kingdom of Hungary. One in the fourteenth century and one in the
>fifteenth. Neither institutions survived. Establishing the first university
>which actually functioned longer than a few years in the seventeenth century
>actually supports my position and not my opponents'. Just for a fuller

May I remind Eva that the Academia Istropolitana was established in 1467
in Bratislava (Pressburg, Pozsonyi) and that the reason that it folded was
that funding was withheld by the crown some years later, however progress
didn't stop there did it.

>Now, let's go to Central Europe. Prague = 1347; Cracow = 1364; Vienna = 1365;
>Heidelberg = 1386; Cologne = 1388; Leipzig = 1409; Tubingen = 1477; Konigsberg
>= 1544; University of Vilnius (Polish) = 1579; University of Dorpat/Tartu
>(German) = 1632; University of Moscow = 1755; University  of Sofia = 1888;
>University of Iasi = 1860; University of Bucharest = 1864.

OK, the establishment of universities in central Europe was definitely a
factor,
however it was not the only factor in consideration of comparative equality.
In Zilina (Sillein) Slovaks achieved parity in municipal representation with
the Germans in 1381. The Czechs achieved parity in the municipal representation
in Old Town Prague in 1413 ( 32 years later than the Slovaks in Zilina) whereas
the Magyars in Buda achieved parity with Germans in 1438 ( 57 years later)
and in Kolozsvar/Cluj in 1458. In 1551 Ferdinand of Habsburg made the Germans,
the Slovaks, and the Magyars of Trnava completely equal. Successively a German,
a Slovak and a Magyar were elected mayor.

>And, one more word for Tony. Just because Thomas Breed comes up with this
>rather unique observation that before the Enlightenment it is anachronistic
>to talk about comparative economic backwardness, it doesn't mean that it is
>true. Tony being touchy about this matter found Thomas Breed's unsupported

Have you considered the establishment of the 1st Mining Academy in the world
in Banska Stiavnica (Chemnitz) in 1762 in your assessment of comparative
economic backwardness?

>claim handy. But let's not fall for it and let's just admit that Eastern
>Europe was considerably behind Western Europe in practically all aspects of
>life. That is nothing to be ashamed of. Instead, we should all get inspired

I readily admit that the feudal policies practiced from 1792 onward had gone
awry of western European liberal developments (Oetvos being one of the framers
was as much at fault for their failure as anyone) but that shouldn't overshadow
all of the prior history. One might also consider prior aspects, for instance
Prokopios in his History of the Wars of Ceasar Justinian in the yrs. 527-554
wrote of the initial Byzantine contact with slavic people along the Danube,
which BTW recorded the initial use of the name of Slavs in Greek history.
Prokopios wrote:
"These nations of Slavae and Antae are not governed by s single man, but
since the ancient days they live *democratically*, and therefore they always
confer together upon pleasant and difficult matters.  They recognize, that
there is only one God, creator of lightning and Lord of all.. They do not
know fate at all and do not recognize its power over man at all. ...
Both (nations) have the same language.. they are not evil nor malicious,
they are sincere similarly as the Hunnic nation.

Tony

Ps.
In 1963 The second Vatican council established the universal liturgy in
the respective languages of the respective lands, however the Great Moravian
people had received the liturgy in their language in 863 AD. over 1100 years
before it was universally established in the West.
+ - Re: Parliamentary representation of ethnic minorities (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tony Pace wrote:

T> Seems to me that the minority policies should be given consideration
T> in the respective Parliaments of the respective successor states, however
T> it would appear that minorities in Hungary have yet to achieve Parliamen-
T> tary representation *of their own choosing* (that is an elected
T> Parliamentary representation). It is in this respect that Hungary
T> deviates from the other successor states in that minorities in Hungary
T> have not as yet been able to achieve an _elected_ Parliamentary represen-
T> tation, whereas in the other successor states the minorities are repre-
T> sented in Parliament.

I've heard this argument several times, and always failed to understand it.
Say, the law regulating the parliamentary elections in Slovakia doesn't
contain a single word about minorities. There is no specific mechanism that
ensures parliamentary representation for minorities. The Hungarian minority
is represented in the Slovak Parliament simply because the Hungarian parties
(taking part in the elections under the same conditions as all the other
parties) received more than 10% of the votes in the latest elections. This
is not the merit of the Slovakian political system. The Ukrainian/Ruthenian,
Czech, Polish, German and Roma minorities have no parliamentary representa-
tion "of their own choosing" in the Slovak Parliament (that is, no minority
has except for the Hungarian one).

T> RFE/RL Daily Report reported on March 24th 1994:

T> MINORITIES IN HUNGARY COMPLAIN. According to the "minority
T> roundtable," a group comprising minority representatives, there
T> has been no substantial improvement in the situation of Hungary's
T> minorities following the adoption of a law on minorities last
T> July, MTI reports. Acting "minority roundtable" chairman Pero
T> Lasztity told a press conference on 23 March that the main reason
T> for this was that minorities failed to gain parliamentary
T> representation. (A recent amendment to the electoral law that
T> would have granted minorities parliamentary representation failed
T> to pass in parliament.)

In this context the situation of minorities in Hungary is analogous to the
situation of the Ukrainian/Ruthenian, Czech, Polish, German and Roma mino-
rities in Slovakia. In both cases the problem is that they are "too small",
and have no chance to gain parliamentary representation if taking part in
the elections under the same conditions as non-minority parties do. In Hun-
gary the discussion is about creating a specific mechanism that would grant
a more or less automatic parliamentary representation for minorities, in the
sense that a minority candidate would need only a symbolic number of votes
(1000-2000) to be elected. No such mechanism exists in Slovakia, and it has
never been considered to create one.

T> Lasztity also complained that there was still no ombudsman for
T> minorities,

There is no such ombudsman in the Slovak Parliament either.

T> and that minorities still lacked self-governing bodies that would have
T> granted them wide-ranging autonomy at the local level.

This is not true in Hungary any more, but still true in Slovakia.

HT
+ - INVITATION! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To readers in Central Ohio:

You are invited to a Magyar dancehouse!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Magyar (sovideki-szeki) tanchaz lesz januar 24-en, penteken 7 orakor delutan
Columbusban a Buckeye Village kozossegi hazaban. Mindenkit varunk tanitani,
tanulni, tancolni.
Erdeklodni Borsos Krisztinatol & Nemethi Andrastol lehet a (614) 487-1568
telefonszamon, e-mail .
Hozzatok a barataitokat es a jokedveteket!

Andras
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
See you there!
Jozsef Varga
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In >,  writes:
> Even if you
>don't know Hungarian there is quite a bit a news in English. Subscribe to
>Mozaik, one of HIX's excellent programs where the news is exclusively in
>English.
>Eva Balogh


EVA, there is also an excellent weekly newsletter, Hungarian Hirlevel, in
English that is distributed by fax or snailmail.
details available from .
+ - Washington, D.C. - Films (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following films will be shown at the Smithsonian Hirshhorn
 Museum. The films are free.  Programs begin at 8 p.m, and run about
 90 minutes.  For program updates, call 202-357-2700.


 Thursday, February 23 and Friday, February 24

 WOYZECK
 =======
 Janos Szasz resets Georg Buchner's play and updates Werner Herzog's
 version of the story to take place in a Hungarian railroad yard.
 Lajos Kovacs's Woyzeck is a railroad switcher trapped in his
 signal-station hut whose life consists otherwise of being bullied by
 his arrogant superviser and rejected by his beautiful young wife.
 Tibor Mathe's stunning black-and-white camerawork gives Woyzeck both
 the poetry of a familiar everyman and the intensity of a mythic
 character.   Woyzeck recently received Best Director and Best Actor
 awards at the Thessaloniki International Film Festival.  In Hungarian
 with English subtitles.



 Thursday, March 16 and 23; Fridays, March 17 and 24

 SATANTANGO
 ==========
 Hungarian filmmaker Bela Tarr's black comedy about life after
 Communism has been called the `Hungarian Heimat' for its concentrated
 focus on a group of characters, its duration (almost 7 hours) and its
 lush camerawork.  The sensibility, however, is gallows humor, as the
 three couples of a farming collective yearn for a new life but
 consciously and unconsciously spin further and further toward
 catastrophe.  Featured at Taormina Arte '94 and the New York Film
 Festival, this epic saga will be screened in four episodes (each
 evening features a different episode).  In Hungarian with English
 subtitles.
+ - Re: ***HUNGARY***** (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 writes:
>
>  But the discussion wasn't about cultural preservation but instead about
> genetics and keeping races "pure."  Paul had commented that there was an
> inherent positive quality in racial "purity."  Being of mixed race, I
> thought it would be interesting to know whether I lack this extra positive
> quality, and whether in final analysis I would be considered less a person.

    In plant and animal genetics, it is the opposite. The phenomenon
of heterosis is well known and exploited. It is also called "hybrid
vigor".  Roughly, it means that hybrids of two pure lines are
generally overall bigger, better, healthier etc., than the originating
lines.   That is why all the corn you eat today is big and sweet and
juicy instead of a tiny two-inch long thing with hard kernels.  Corn
has been hybridized more than any other crop.
  Their are two values to a pure line.
          (1) archival.  It is always
good to keep a pure line going so as to know where the genes are in
case you need them for further cross-breeding or study.  It may take many
generations to recover a particular gene from a hybrid population,
whereas it is known to exist in a pure line.
        (2) specialization.  A pure line will reliably
produce given characteristics. That is, if you
know that all individuals of the line will produce long noses, and for
your particular job you need long nosed individuals, you breed the
pure lines rather than take a chance on hybrids.
     Thus one should not categorically say that either hybrids or pure
lines are best.  It depends on what you want.


    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534
+ - Re: Horn and Clinton (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles wrote:
>--There is something about Horn's position that I don't quite get.  Perhaps
>you can straighten me out.  Horn was the foreign minister in the Antall
>government, yet he was not a member of any of the three coalition parties
>was he?

        Horn was FM in the last MSZMP government, not the Antall government.
That should clear up the confusion. 8-)

        Norb
+ - Re: ***HUNGARY***** (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  25-JAN-1995 10:33:12
>
>In article > 
>writes:
>
>>And people of mixed origin have less value?  Actually, I heard rhetoric
>>almost identical to this last night on tv.  Some skinheads were addressing
>>some African Americans, telling them that they didn't hate them, they just
>>wanted to preserve racial diversity.  I'm not saying you're a skinhead...I
>>just think your arguements draw on some of the same sources of legitimacy.
>
>>Scary, eh?
>
>Yes, that is scary. However, I can not help thinking that some forms of
>cultural integration simply can not work in the short (or even long) run.
>While skinheads generally evoke a violent racist vision in everyone, this
>stereotype should not be applied to every person who supports the preservation
>of a cultural identity in their society.

 But the discussion wasn't about cultural preservation but instead about
genetics and keeping races "pure."  Paul had commented that there was an
inherent positive quality in racial "purity."  Being of mixed race, I
thought it would be interesting to know whether I lack this extra positive
quality, and whether in final analysis I would be considered less a person.

 Generally a society can remain stable
>as long as the cultural background of its inhabitants remains relatively
>homogeneous. Once this changes, there is generally an upheval. This has
>happened many times in history, the American Revolution being a good example
>of this. I am concerned about the 20th century trend of large scale migration
>of people across the globe. Witness the beginnings of such a backlash taking
>place in California against the massive influx of immigrants.

Interesting that you are concerned about the large scale immigration but


 Such a reaction
>is viewed as racist by liberal elements, and as xenophobic by immigrant
>groups. However, it really is neither. It is a natural reaction of
>discomfort and alienation of the "native" population, which is confronted by a
>seemingly huge masses of non-American (read foreign language speaking, and
>strangely dressing) people.

It may be natural, but that does not make it non-racist or non-xenophobic.

 The reason for the aversion to these new
>immigrants is here, not in the money that is being spent on the financing of
>their assimilation into America. (And this is the reason why immigrant groups
>who quickly adapt the local culture in favor of their own manage to become
>'native' within a single generation)

In other words, they don't mind money spent, but they mind that they are
different.  That's called xenophobia.
>
>Well, that is my two cents worth. As an assmilited immigrant to this country,
>I feel somewhat qualified to make this statement.
>
>Steve (Istvan)



                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  25-JAN-1995 10:51:41
>
>On Mon, 23 Jan 1995  wrote:
>
>> actually supports my position and not my opponents'

It's a shame that someone so prestigious as yourself has to approach issues
like this adversarialy.  People should approach history as we approach a
football match:  hoping to win.  Historians are supposed to be social
SCIENTISTS, and as far as I know scientists are supposed to hold the truth
to be their number one priority, not "winning," or beating their
"opponents."

. Just for a fuller
>> understanding of the question here are a few dates. Padua = 1220; Pavia =
>> 1361; Rome = 1303; Florence = 1349; Naples = 1225; Bologna = 1076; Paris =
>> 1150-1170; Montpellier = 12th century; Toulouse = 1229; and several other
>> French medieval universities like Avignon, Grenoble, Orange, etc. The first
>> Spanish university was established in 1243; first first Portugese one, the
>> University of Lisbon, in 1290; the first Oxford college, University College
>> was founded in 1249. University of Cambridge was organized between 1231 and
>> 1233. University of Edinburgh was established late: 1583.

As was Nantes and Glasow and a whole host of others.
>>
>> Now, let's go to Central Europe. Prague = 1347; Cracow = 1364; Vienna = 1365
;
>> Heidelberg = 1386; Cologne = 1388; Leipzig = 1409; Tubingen = 1477; Konigsbe
r
   g
>>  = 1544; University of Vilnius (Polish) = 1579; University of Dorpat/Tartu
>> (German) = 1632; University of Moscow = 1755; University  of Sofia = 1888;
>> University of Iasi = 1860; University of Bucharest = 1864.
>
>> claim handy. But let's not fall for it and let's just admit that Eastern
>> Europe was considerably behind Western Europe in practically all aspects of
>> life.

I agree with what you say for the Early Modern period through today.

 That is nothing to be ashamed of. Instead, we should all get inspired
>> and do our darndest to change it in the twenty-first century. Slovaks as wel
l
>> as Hungarians.
>
I agree with this as well.

>Eva,
>
>You are bringing up examples of Prague, Heidelberg, Cologne, etc.  Now do
>you consider these Eastern or Western Europe?  Are you saying that for
>example Germany, which is where Cologne and Heidelberg are, historically
>behind the west?  Your example of Sofia, Bucharest and Moscow are well
>taken, but now where do you draw the line of Western Europe?  It seems to
>me that this is not very clear to anyone.  Obviously in the latter part
>of the 20th Century the difference in political systems was one of the
>most important factors that decided the question whether a country was
>considered Western or Eastern Europe.  But how about before then?

This was my entire point on the issue of Eastern Europe.  To quote Charles
Jelavich:

                In order for a group of countries to be constituted into an
                "area," it is essential that they have a common
                denominator, which may be ethnic, religious, historic,
                linguistic, or cultural.  The overwhelming majority of
                American scholars consulted agree that the one unifying
                theme connecting the states covered in this survey lies in
                the post war establishment of communist regimes.  Only at
                this time were the political destinies and development of
                these peoples bound so tightely together that there is real
                justification in joining such disparate countries as, for
                instance, Albania and Poland or Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia
                into a single unit for research and study.
                        Charles Jelavich, _Language and Area Studies East
                        Central and Southeastern Europe:  a Survey_.  Univ
                        of Chicago Press, 1969)

Eastern Europe was not a monolith.  Backwardness (note his comment on
development) was not uniform across Eastern or Western Europe.  If
Backwardness alone is the criteria for being in Eastern Europe, why is
Ireland part of the West?

Of course, if geography is your basis for defining Eastern and Western
Europe, where is the dividing line?

>According to your argument I would determine that Germany is part of the
>East, since Universities there were founded much later than in France and
>in Spain.
>
>
>Zoli
)



                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - New History Book (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The Indiana University Press just issued "A History of Hungary" Peter F.
Sugar editor, Peter Hanak associate editor, Tibor Frank editorial
assistant. The price is $17.95 in soft cover.
Regards,Jeliko
+ - Stolen Hungarian Art (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The Bard Graduate Center for Studies in the Decorative Arts in New York
recently sponsored a symposium "The Spoils of War". The presentations
and discussions centered on the fate of art works stolen, and still not
returned, during the Second World War.

In 1943 a secret Soviet program was initiated to stock a supermuseum
with art looted from all over Europe. It was estimated that in the
course of time, the Russians "liberated" an estimated 2.5 million works
of art including whole libraries and archives as they occupied East and
Central Europe. These included among others the collections of Andras
Herzog and Ferenc Hatvany.

At the symposium the Russians announced  that 130 paintings from
Hungarian colections, including  paintings of El Greco, Goya, Degas,
Tintoretto and others will be exhibited in Moscow. Of course, the
question remains whether and if these cultural treasures will ever be
returned to their rightful owners?

C.K. ZOLTANI
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles writes:
> --Actually, it was Charles, not Jeliko, but he and I
often think alike.
> I think that he is a nice man, but has a dirty mind.  I
am a nasty man
> but I have a clean mind.

What do you mean? I change my underwear and mind at least
once a day.
Regards,Jeliko
+ - 2 hungarians in westinghouse (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There are two kids listed among the 40 finalists in the Westinghouse talent
search...from Indiana Daniel Kalman Biss, 17 of Bloomington High School and
from Kansas Martin Tibor Stiaszny, 17 of Overland Park Shawnee Mission South
High School...of course there might be others, whose parents have anglicized
their names...but Kalman and Tibor deserve our congrats
+ - Re: Parliamentary representation of ethnic minorities (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor writes:

>In this context the situation of minorities in Hungary is analogous to the
>situation of the Ukrainian/Ruthenian, Czech, Polish, German and Roma mino-
>rities in Slovakia. In both cases the problem is that they are "too small",
>and have no chance to gain parliamentary representation if taking part in

Ukrainian/Ruthenian, Polish and German deputies were represented in the
Co-existance party of 1993 in Slovakia, and the Co-existance platform did
make mention of them, however the Polish, German and Ukrainian/Ruthenian
deputies had opted out of the Co-existance program sometime prior to the 1994
elections for reasons unknown to me. However it cannot be said that Co-
existance did not partake of Parliamentary representation prior to the time
that the Ukrainian/Ruthenian, Polish, German deputies opted out of it.

>the elections under the same conditions as non-minority parties do. In Hun-
>gary the discussion is about creating a specific mechanism that would grant
>a more or less automatic parliamentary representation for minorities,

I disagree, rather the implementation of the Nationality Law number 77,
which came into force on January 1, 1994 is being disputed in the Hungarian
Parliament. The Hungarian Parlaiment is contesting the implementation of
Nationality Law number 77, the very law which is supposed to be a model
for the demands of the Hungarian ethnic minorities in surrounding countries.

One example which sheds light on the whole problem is the recent protest
by the chairman of the Union of Hungarian Germans, who stated that the
Hungarian Parliament is not enforcing its own constitution, when
the Parliament declared it *impossible* for the Hungarian Parliament
to accept representatives of ethnic minorities. The representatives of
Hungarian Germans therefore rightly ask what moral right Hungary has to
interfere in the minorities policies of other countries if it doesn't
even guarantee the most basic of all democratic principles for its own
ethnic minorities, that is Parliamentary representation in its own state.
+ - Re: Discussions on this list. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995 09:59:10 GMT Tony.MALTBY [SOCIAL POLICY] said:
>I would suggest that you read my message more carefully.
>I am not against free speech nor am I against  what I (and
>many others) regard as the mindless drivel and a waste of
>Internet space that many of the regular contributors place
>on this list.
> I just want you to carry on your conversations privately.
>
--I rise to defend mindless drivel.  Well, defend it a little.
Most of these mindless strings started off in relation to something
that happened in Hungary.  Sometimes recent, sometimes historical.
The long string on race, ethnicity, and culture started, as I recall,
with a discussion of the position of gypsies in Hungary and then
evolved--or metastasized--into a general discussion of race, etc.
This process is not unlike a conversation in real life.  Somebody
usually brings the discussion back to Hungary--or the string plays
out.  For my part, I will resolve again to avoid too much drivel,
but even the drivel on this list is more interesting than that on
many lists, e.g. alt.sex.fetish.feet.

Charles

P.S.  I'd be interested in your comments on my piece in Social
Policy Review 6.  If you choose to comment and wish to reply off
list, please reply to .  Or, if you didn't
like the piece and want to go public, I don't mind!

>          ========================================
+ - Re: Horn and Clinton (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 24 Jan 1995 17:06:20 -0500 > said:
                            The brief described Horn as stiff, formal, and
>untrustworthy (the Hungarian translation was "link"). Also, the brief said
>that by East European standards he is not an alcoholic but by American
>standards he drinks too much.

--There is something about Horn's position that I don't quite get.  Perhaps
you can straighten me out.  Horn was the foreign minister in the Antall
government, yet he was not a member of any of the three coalition parties
was he?

--And a second question.  According to Burant, Gypsy, Croatian, Romanian,
Serbian, Slovak, Slovenian, German, and Jewish minorities each have one
seat in the National Assembly.  Is this tokenism or is it a good start
toward eventual proportional representation of minorities?  Given that
some of these people might have membership in a regular party, is this
a sensible thing to do, or might it eventually, if expanded, lead to
a messy situation?  It sounds like an attempt to use one of Lani Guenier's
ideas.
>
>Charles
+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 24 Jan 1995 21:30:31 GMT > said:
>
>ireelevant to the question of whether there is such a law!

--The literal mind strikes back!

>i strenuously object to having laws on the books which lend
>themselves to
>selective application.

--Most countries have them.  In one state in the U.S., all automobiles
are supposed to be preceded by a man carrying a red flag so as not to
frighten the horses!  Just regard them as pleasant anachronisms and get
on with your life!

Charles
+ - Re: Catching up (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Eva Durant writes:
> > Can you see no difference between the owner of the corner shop
> > or a plumber employing 2 in his (very small) business  and
> > those of "big business"?   (?)
> The reason they started is that they had faith in their ability to make a
> go of the business.
>

  (?)   Hm. Is this an answer to  my question?

> > Whatever the media image, if you have shares/
> > capital with a return of of more than say $60 000/year - you can choose
> > not to work all your life. Is that ethical?
>
> You are always complaining that you do not make enough money and now claim
> that making money is not ethical. Now I understand your choice of your
> living standard.
>

I am complaining that most people cannot make enough money, because
of the system which allows some people to make too much.
I am quite happy ( minus worries about bills shared by most humans
around me ) thank you very much, no way I want to be
(and provenly cannot be) a nasty capitalist...


> > If 40 hours of mindblowing, sweaty work is not adequate to earn
> > the essentials/non-essentials  others seem to get with ease (see adverts)
> > I can see a motivation to crime and "idleness".
> If you read the discussion it was about building up capital by working MORE
> than 40 hours.

What is the answer to my points that this is not a practical alternative
at present times? (You cannot accumulate capital if you are working in a
low-paid job these days - or I suspect - ever)
By the way, the more hours you work the less you earn. (See new
figures on average working hours in Europe (EC)).

To those who do not like their work it will always be
> "mindblowing and sweaty". BTW what's wrong with sweat? It is not a disease.

Most work which require sweat seems to be not very creative and
can be done by machines, it is alright, even theraputic (sp?)
for a few hours when you feel like it, but 8-10 hours a day
shouldn't be necessary anymore.


> > >
> > > Tibor Benke writes:
> > > business
> > > > men and women who usually own some franchise business and work 70
> hours a
> > >
> > > Now you give examples of your "robber capitalists"? I thought
> > > according to you these guys did not exist.
> > >

These are definitely not your robber capitalists, those are busy
buying and selling/scrapping Hungary on the cheap.

+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
>
> >Than we found the only fulltime nursery in the region
> >which took half of my wages...
>
> --I agree that this would be ridicuous.  Weren't there any subsidies?
> Was this in Hungary or England?
>
Guess, Charles!
You are not reading my posts carefully: we did go back to
Hungary in the 80s, where there was a fulltime nursery
for nominal fees in the village of 250 people where we lived;
We had a good time, but husband had the 5 years itch this time
(it is usually me) or he missed his pub... which is a
definitely advanced institution compared with your average
village "kocsma" I have to admit...

> >
> --My mother worked as long as I can remember.  When I was small,
> she took me along, which she could do because she was doing
> free-lance accounting.  When I got to be 10 or 12, I was pretty
> much on my own.  Now I would be considered a latchkey child and
> a victim of society.  Then I just thought that I was a lucky kid
> because I was the master of my own time!
>

So did mine, and I find my relationship with her and family
much better, than in those where mothers were "locked up"
with babies.


> --Holland and Sweden for two.  Also Germany.  And I'm talking about the
> benefits for the workforce, not the unemployed.
>

Spain has the longest holidays, Belgium the shortest working hours, what
do you mean?
Maternity benefits were and are dismally behind Hungary here in
the UK.


>
> --I'm sorry that you have been disappointed, because you seem to be
> a sensitive, intelligent person.  Have you weighed the pros and cons
> or returning to Hungary?  Now, don't take that to mean that I am
> saying, "If you don't like the West, get out!"  I don't mean that.
> If that is what I meant, that is what I would have said.
>

(Even unsensitive and stupid persons should have a chance...)
I wasn't disappointed, I was merely surprised!
I have a happy disposition, believe it
or not. Just would be happier, if everybody else was happy...
As I repeated a few times: we've been back, and probably
will be again in Hungary in the future.

+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> >From the brief resume, I guess you are equiping your children to be good
> Europeans, with multiple language capabilities and broader than typical
> interests. (Although I am still in favor of technical education for
> breaking out of the rut).

I prefer no distinction between "technical" and "humanities"
education there should be both up to the point where the
individual has enough incling about them to choose -
would be nice to leave it till after 18...
(Maths and Chemistry "A" levels in fact in this case make
a technical bias)
Now this message could have been private.
I do answer private messages privately, I'd do the same with
some others, but my heading doesn't show private addresses,
so if they are not included in the text, I don't look them up.



> The ability of knowing more than one language is
> a multiplier not an additive. Everything else you know, is known in other
> languages also. You remind me of the story of the father who had two
> children, one was an optimist the other a pessimist. He wanted to cure it
> and got a bunch of toys for the pessimist who started crying that the toys
> will break and then he will have nothing to play with. For the optimist he
> loaded up the garage with horse manure and told him to shovel it out. The
> optimist was merrily shoveling the manure and when the father asked him why
> is he so happy, he answered Daddy, Daddy there must be a pony hereabouts.
>
> Jeliko.
+ - mochovce studies available (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From:   SMTP%"" 24-JAN-1995 19:31:57.93
X-To:   Multiple recipients of list >
CC:
Subj:   Information On Mochovce Nuclear Power Plant

Mr. Iouli Andreev of the Nuclear Safety Project, Vienna
University, has made available documentation released in Slovakia for a
public hearing to justify an European Bank for Reconstruction and
Development (EBRD) loan to Bratislava for the completion of the
Mochovce Nuclear Power Plant.

"For concerned individuals, this documentation now accessible over the
Internet will be of great interest because it offers a rare chance to
combine safety, environmental impact assessment and least cost study
data for a nuclear power plant in a single source." -- Iouli Andreev

There are approximately 2 and 10 megabytes of text and graphics
respectively; the originals are available in WinWord 6 and .tif
formats.

* Note: the Least Cost Study will be made available within several
        days.

Comments on the data should be directed to:

Mr. Iouli Andreev

Telephone: +43-1-479 0094 (office)
Fax: + 43-1-479 0095 (office)

ACCESS:

** Via ftp:

Regional Environmental Center for Central and Eastern Europe (REC)
Address: ftp.rec.hu      Path: \pub\REC\Machovce\

The information is available in
1. MS Word 2.0 for Windows (*.doc)
2. WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS (*.wp)
3. ASCII text (*.txt)
4. Adobe_Acrobat_Reader (*.pdf)

** Via gopher & world wide web:

Central European Environmental Data Request Facility (CEDAR)
Address:  gopher: pan.cedar.univie.ac.at
          www:  http://pan.cedar.univie.ac.at

      Select: Public Hearing Documentation on Mochovce/

        1.  Introduction to the Mochovce Documents - Read them first
        2.  Mochovce Environmental Impact Assessment/
        3.  Mochovce Safety Report/
        4.  Mochovce Least Cost Study
        5.  UUEncoded Originals of the Mochovce Document/

The Gopher and current WWW versions appear in ASCII; the WWW
will be modified in the coming weeks to support full graphics.
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke writes:

>  The third world isn't poor because its backward
>  and less 'civilized',  it is poor because Europe has been robbing it for
>  some four centuries and is continuing to do so.

I agree somewhat.  Europe has for about 100 years been, and continues to,
steal natural resources from poor countries.  However, the capability to do so
was developed within Europe, and the technological advantage that the
capability consisted of was a product of European initiative.  This does
not mean that all other people were less intelligent, just that they were
less ambitous and not motivated to use their resources to improve their
lives as the Europeans had.  There are exceptions, such as the Chinese who
created many important inventions, such as paper and gun powder, but for
the most part European people were actively persuing and using knowledge.

This seems to be the latest development in the long line of human development;
old societies grow, prosper, achieve their golden age, then decay.  The
most recent part of the line of progress starts in Egypt, then moves to
Greece, and then into western Europe (not being a historian by profession
I don't know what society before Egypt can be considered as their predecessor,
but the line of succession no doubt started before Egypt), and no to America.
It seems Asia will be next in line, but for now they are prosperous because
of economic conditions rather than due to their technical developments.

Europe has stolen resources from other societies, but the ability to do so
is in itself a major achievement.

Paul
+ - Re: Discussions on this list. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You said:

free speech?  I thought that's what you're against.

I would suggest that you read my message more carefully.
I am not against free speech nor am I against  what I (and
many others) regard as the mindless drivel and a waste of
Internet space that many of the regular contributors place
on this list.
 I just want you to carry on your conversations privately.

Szia,
Tony.


             ====================================
           Dr Tony MALTBY
        Dept. of Social Policy & Social Work
        University of Birmingham
        Edgbaston
        BIRMINGHAM
        B15 2TT  UK
     Tel: (44) (0)121 414 5730   Fax: (44) (0)121 414 5726
          ========================================
+ - Re: HUNGARIAN NETWORK (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

pamela.  just what in the world do you expect to happen as a reply to your
message.  pamela i'd like to have a new car.
+ - Re: Istvan Kertesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:
>about another Istvan Kertesz (he may have been a mathematician) who lived in
>New Jersey and who contributed to this list quite frequently although not
>lately.

        Didn't he have a Phd in law?

        Norb
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor wrote:

>It concieves of a
>linear pattern of history where each era is an improvement over its
>predecessor and where the eras follow each other in some logical order so
>that one can mark the path of any society along the same road.  This is one
>way of viewing history, but I think it is not the most useful because it
>obscures the relationships based on power and exploitation between the
>peoples of the various areas and thus, the actual causes of the poverty .

Tibor, I think these things work hand-in-hand; the development of a society
is due both to it's skills and motivation, as well as the available resources
which are aquired be whatever means deemed appropriate (taking into account
the period and what the rules of the day are).

I think this article, only a portion of which I have included, shows great
insight into 'how' mankind developed to his present state - such as it is.
With a few monir exceptions, I agree with it.

Paul
+ - The new PBS series (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Victor Marx asked whether the new PBS mystery series was shot in Hungary.
Yes, it was, and most likely the church you saw was the gothic church of Jak.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #173; Biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>I am still puzzled - how Paul intends to identify and keep separate
>>the "races" without any racism...


I wanted to repond to it, but it is no use.  I think this subject was
discussed from every angle, and we still do not get anywhere. It appears
that Paul respects and treats fairly other races. I think that is the important
.
The rest is imaterial.

Sandor
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg wrote:

>if these countries were once poor because of European robbery,
>when did the robbery stop, and how was it stopped?

It hasn't stopped:

        *Western countries are paying third world countries to
                take toxic waste that the first world (FW) deems
                too dangerous to store.
        *FW countries are paying pennies to third world countries (TW)
                for their resources of wood (I think Thailand is one axample).
        *FW countries are paying pennies for beef from South America, which is
                raised on land cleared of tropical rain forrest.
        *FW countries are paying pennies to Jamaica for boxite, which is
                required to produce aluminum.  The cost is well below
                what would be fair market value, but it was agreed to 50 years
                ago when Jamaica was desperately poor, as it still is because
                they do not get the income they are rightly entitled to.

It hasn't stopped.

Paul
+ - Re: Discussions on this list. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

free speech?  I thought that's what you're against.
+ - Old-fashioned Hungarian? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke apparently speaks a rather old-fashioned Hungarian. Bela Batkay
who learned Hungarian at Columbia claims the same. Well, somehow I don't
think that it is so old-fashioned that it would be noticeable. After all,
Tibor was eleven in 1956. I was older than that and nobody says that I speak
old-fashioned Hungarian. I may not use some of the newest slangs: I simply
couldn't bring myself up to saying "felment a pumpa," when I am angry but I
think it has more to do with age than with anything else.

Eva Balogh
+ - Hungarian Geneology (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I saw this message on ROOTS-L and thought it might interest readers of this
list. This is not an advertisement and I can't personally vouch for their
services but it sounds like an honest testimonial.

Steve Kovacs

------- Ez itt a reklam helye --------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Jan 1995 22:10:55 -0500
>From:    Don Block >
Subject: Research in Budapest

Back at the end of September I read a message on ROOTS-L from Stephen in
Budapest about a service there that would do family research.  I E-Mailed
Stephen and he helped me get in touch with the research bureau.  It is called
Family Tree Genealogical Research Bureau.  So I took a chance and sent a
deposit and any information I thought I had on the Blocks in the
Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Just before the end of the year I received much more than I dreamed of.  They
had located my ancestors back to my great x 3 grandfather, born at the turn
of the 18th century and all of his decendents up until the mid 20th century.
 There were short bios on almost everyone.  All of the information was backed
up by copies of the original documents.  They also traveled to the little
town my family had come from, which I had the name of but hadn't been able to
find.  They took photos of the village as well as a local small cemetary
where most the headstones are Blocks.  In short, they answered questions I
had been asking for two years and I highly recomend this service.

They can be reached at:
Family Tree
Genealogical Research Bureau
H-1025 Budapest,Zoldlomb u. 16-18/8, Hungary
tel: (361) 215 0696
fax: (361) 132 7905

Also, Stephen if you're out there, I tried to E-Mail you seperatley but the
mail came back.  Thanks a million for the information.

Don Block
+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subject: Re: XIX C. & XXI C.
From: Charles, 
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 09:38:36 CST
In article > Charles,
 writes:
>On Sun, 22 Jan 1995 01:54:57 GMT > said:


> > most countries/states have laws concerning "visbile means of
> > support", so
> > that someone without investments and without a job and not in
> > receipt of
> > social welfare payments woud be considered "vagrant". are there
no
> > laws
> > against vagrancy in the usa today?

>--Yes, but they are rarely enforced.

ireelevant to the question of whether there is such a law!
In the u.k. it was illegal  until at least the 1980's -- and the
relevant law
may not have been repealed -- to be an atgheist. it is also a law
which is
rarely enforced.

i strenuously object to having laws on the books which lend
themselves to
selective application, such as the summary offences act in n.s.w.
according
to which a group of three or more persons constitutes and assembly
and so
technically, three colleagues walking together in the street
techincally
constitute a procession requiring police permission. of course this
is
rarely enforced......

d.a.
+ - Istvan Kertesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Nagy was inquiring about which Istvan Kertesz I was talking about when
I announced his death on this list. I certainly wasn't talking about the
conductor who, as far as I know, committed suicide years ago. I was talking
about another Istvan Kertesz (he may have been a mathematician) who lived in
New Jersey and who contributed to this list quite frequently although not
lately.

Eva Balogh
+ - Horn and the hotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant is right that the three hotels in Budapest I happened to mention
are big and in good shape. Moreover, they make money. However, the other
eleven are provincial hotels are losing propositions. I don't remember
whether I already mentioned this fact on this list or only on the
Hungarian-language Forum. According to all the experts the price was a fair
price for 51 percent of the shares.

Eva Balogh
+ - Horn and Clinton (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg asks:

>Eva Balogh just mentioned a news item involving my two favorite
>politicians and a leak of some sort.  I confess I missed this.  Would
>anyone care to fill me in, briefly, please?


Sure, it is quite juicy. There is a bilingual American-Hungarian journalist
called Charles Fenyvesi. I seem to remember that he works for the Washington
Post and here and there contributes to Hungarian papers mostly about American
reactions to Hungary. I read a few pieces from him before. In anyy case,
Fenyvesi got hold of a brief prepared for Clinton for his meeting with Horn
in Budapest at the summit. The brief described Horn as stiff, formal, and
untrustworthy (the Hungarian translation was "link"). Also, the brief said
that by East European standards he is not an alcoholic but by American
standards he drinks too much.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:15:25 PST JELIKO said:
                 You remind me of the story of the father who had two
>children, one was an optimist the other a pessimist. He wanted to cure it
>and got a bunch of toys for the pessimist who started crying that the toys
>will break and then he will have nothing to play with. For the optimist he
>loaded up the garage with horse manure and told him to shovel it out. The
>optimist was merrily shoveling the manure and when the father asked him why
>is he so happy, he answered Daddy, Daddy there must be a pony hereabouts.
>
--Jeliko, you are a mind reader.  This story came to my mind this morning
as I was fixing my breakfast, having just read one of Eva D's postings!

Charles
+ - Re: XIX C. & XXI C. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 24 Jan 1995 14:03:29 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>The argument started with the notion that with good honest
>sweaty work anyone can make it as a successful capitalist.
>
--That, too, if you are willing to really bust your arse and, as you
say, have a bit of luck and be in the right place at the right time
with the right product of service.  What really counts is having the
right idea and being willing to devote your soul to it.  But this
is not necessarily the American Dream.

>I wonder why didn't you take a brake in your career...

--Because, as it was at the time, I had more salable skills that
my wife did.

>Than we found the only fulltime nursery in the region
>which took half of my wages...

--I agree that this would be ridicuous.  Weren't there any subsidies?
Was this in Hungary or England?

>(I've found that staying home with babies is incredibly
>lonely, boring, mindblowing, hard and shouldn't be necessary)
>
--My mother worked as long as I can remember.  When I was small,
she took me along, which she could do because she was doing
free-lance accounting.  When I got to be 10 or 12, I was pretty
much on my own.  Now I would be considered a latchkey child and
a victim of society.  Then I just thought that I was a lucky kid
because I was the master of my own time!

>He did start his own business (plumbing) by the way about 6
>years ago now, proving to me further, than if you are not
>mean to other people and to yourself, you won't make a successful
>capitalist. (ie embarassed to charge the going rate to
>struggling people and want to have a bit of spare time -
>there again, you save on advertising)

--Well, plumbers do well in this country.  There's a popular story about
the lawyer that called a plumber to fix his toilet.  When the lawyer got
the bill he was outraged and said "Why, I don't charge this much for an
hour of my time."  The plumber replied, "Neither did I when I was a
lawyer."

>Banks - don't talk to me about banks...
>
--Never had any trouble with them, myself.

>Where????? Where????  We couldn't manage on it, and in some respect
>we were luckier than others.
>
--Holland and Sweden for two.  Also Germany.  And I'm talking about the
benefits for the workforce, not the unemployed.

                   Certainly any Hungarian visiting from the "West"
>did not talk about any sweated labour he needed to get his riches.

--My experience with Hungarians who left after the 1956 uprising is
that most of them have done well.  Of course, they were well-educated
people.  I also suspect that many of them in this country were offered
good jobs out of the general guilt of not doing anything to stop the
Russians.

                           Even I expected something better when
>I left.

--I'm sorry that you have been disappointed, because you seem to be
a sensitive, intelligent person.  Have you weighed the pros and cons
or returning to Hungary?  Now, don't take that to mean that I am
saying, "If you don't like the West, get out!"  I don't mean that.
If that is what I meant, that is what I would have said.

Charles
+ - Re: Discussions on this list. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>--I rise to defend mindless drivel.  Well, defend it a little.
>Most of these mindless strings started off in relation to something
>that happened in Hungary.  Sometimes recent, sometimes historical.
>..
>but even the drivel on this list is more interesting than that on
>many lists, e.g. alt.sex.fetish.feet.

>Charles


I agree!!

Paul
+ - Proper names (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In HUNGARY #203  writes:

>The Catholic University in Trnava (Tyrnau), which was established in 1635,
+ - Re: Ragasz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, JELIKO wrote:

> >         How common is the name Ragasz in Hungary?
>
> >         Norb
> I only knew a lake named that.
>
> Regards,Jeliko
>
Does'nt it Ravasz?
        It is a living name but not as comon as Kova'cs.

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