Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 872
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-12-10
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Why the secrecy? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Rakosi (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Garbage? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
6 I said, he said (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Why the secrecy? (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
8 environmental position with consultancy company (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: To everybody (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: To everybody (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: To everybody (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
13 Oops! (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
15 Rakosi (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: poetry title (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: To everybody (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: To everybody (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: To everybody (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Communist or not? (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Why the secrecy? (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: To Canadians only (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: To everybody (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: poetry title (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Rakosi (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: To everybody (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: The English Patient (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
32 FIDESZ discussion paper (mind)  153 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: The English Patient (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Why the secrecy? (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: To everybody (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: To everybody (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
39 News - OMRI: Daily Digest - 96-12-09 (mind)  200 sor     (cikkei)
40 VIOLATION of Privacy (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: To everybody (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: To everybody (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: Why the secrecy? (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: poetry title (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
45 Re: To everybody (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: VIOLATION of Privacy (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
47 Re: To everybody (mind)  129 sor     (cikkei)
48 Re: To everybody (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
49 Vambery Arminius (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
50 Re: To everybody (mind)  182 sor     (cikkei)
51 test (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
52 Student democrats (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
53 Re: two URL-s: FIDESz and the Hungarian Bishop's Confer (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
54 Re: Hungarian proverb (mind)  210 sor     (cikkei)
55 Re: VIOLATION of Privacy (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
56 Re: To everybody (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
57 two URL-s: FIDESz and the Hungarian Bishop's Conference (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
58 Re: two URL-s: FIDESz and the Hungarian Bishop's Confer (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Why the secrecy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:01:15 -0800
From: 
To: 
Subject: Nemzet 1996.12.09. C/3

REGIONALIS HIREK

DOCUMENTS ON HUNGARY'S "OILGATE" SCANDAL GET 80-YEAR
SECRECY STAMP. Istvan Nikolits, minister responsible for secret
services, has placed an 80-year stamp of secrecy on data related to
the so-called oilgate affair, Hungarian media reported on 9 December.
The opposition Democratic Forum fiercely protested the move.
Silence has surrounded the affair ever since a parliamentary
commission was formed to investigate the charges brought by
opposition deputies and the press that several Socialist party
members had been involved in business deals related to Russia's
repayment of its debt to Hungary. Among others, former Trade and
Industry Ministers Imre Dunai and Laszlo Pal were accused of using
their influence to secure contracts for certain Socialist-leaning
business firms. -- Zsofia Szilagyi


Can someone please tell me why the secrecy? 80 years? That is totally insane!
What are those commies hiding now? There ought to be a law that allows
stuff like this to be obtained with the "freedom of information" act.
Of course there is no such thing in HU. Watch your money go into the
pockets of those thieves! This is why HU has to get the loans to keep
these bastards afloat!
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:55 PM 12/9/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

>I wanted to respond to the pro-Communist, anti-American, anti-Hungarian
>rhetoric.  I deliberately used strong language.  All of a sudden, the liberals
>and communists came out of the woodworks, protesting my language and
>statements. (We have liberals and conservatives, same as any other group of
>people.  I may not agree with liberals, but I there are some liberals I can
>respect.  Even one, murdering, communist garbage is too much.).


        There are no communists on this list. Not even Eva Durant or Joe
Szalai. You are off somewhere in left field. Sorry, right field!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Rakosi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:35 PM 12/9/96 -0500, Amos wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote:
>
>> I vaguely  knew Rakosi did not exactly live in perfect contentment in the
>> Soviet Union and continued to battle for rehabilitation and even restoration
>> to power but not even Khrushchev and Kadar had the stomach for him.
>>
>> Actually, I know very little of his life after 1956.  I know he went to the
>> Soviet Union and lived on for several years. Much as I hate his memory, in
>> a perverse, morbid fascination I would like to know more of his final years.
>> Could you post some of the more interesting highlights from your sources?
>> Perhaps others are interested also.
>>
>> Charlie Vamossy
>> ---------------
>Charlie,
>
>   The last news I have heard about him was that he was (re)interned
>secretly in Hungary few years after his death.  But this  could be a
>rumor only, I don't remember the source of the information.
>
>                                                            Amos
>

        No, it is true. His dead body, or rather his ashes, was transported
back to Hungary. He rests in Hungarian soil. So when people complained that
Horthy's ashes were brought back to Hungary and buried in Kenderes, in his
family's plot, other people answered: well, after all, if Rakosi could be
buried in Hungarian soil, Horthy can be too. I more than agree.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Garbage? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:34 PM 12/9/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:
>Ms. Balogh is so clever!

        Not that clever but knows a little more than you do.

>What I remember about Nagy Imre is that he gave us hope, he never addressed us
>as "comrades", he called us his Hungarian brothers and sisters.  I never
>considered him a communist and I was among those Hungarians who hoped that he
>would lead our country.

        Well, just for your information. Imre Nagy was a Muscovite. That in
plain language means that he spent the 1930s in the Soviet Union and came
back with the Soviet troops. He was a Communist ever since the First World
War. He was not even sure at the beginning of the revolution whether he
should be on "your" and, I am afraid, "my" side. He was a communist all
right. But at the end he did the right thing and he died for it. Whether
"you" consider him a communist or not is immaterial. He was!!! He changed
his mind. So was he garbage or wasn't he?

>He gave his life for Hungary.  Nagy Imre is one of my idols.
>
>To use his name and memory to make a cheap point is despicable.
>
        Or really? I don't think so. You made a blanket statement: all
communists who helped the Russians in Hungary are garbage. Imre Nagy was one
of them!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:03 PM 12/9/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Istvan Lippai:
>
>>I was also
>>extremely disturbed by your, Szalai's and Durants's postings.
>
>        Grouping us together will highly amuse Joe Szalai and Eva Durant.

Ha?  What do you mean?

Joe Szalai
+ - I said, he said (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Lippai's take on what I wrote is rather interesting.

At 02:01 AM 12/9/96 UT, he wrote:

<snip>
>You can read Szalai's recent posting where he talks about the communist
>activists in his family

What I wrote was:  "I only know of one relative who was captured, and
eventually killed, for illegal political activities.  And his "crime" was
handing out pro-communist leaflets in Budapest, before World War II."

For Istvan Lippai, "family" and "relative" are more or less the same.  So,
if 800,000 Hungarians were, at one time, members of the party, what family
didn't have a relative in the party?  Aren't most of us related?  And by the
way, this relative of mine was a distant relative and he was killed before I
was born.  He was killed before the war.  But no matter.  Istvan Lippai
knows better.

And rather than express any kind of uneasy that someone can be killed for
leafleting  he writes:

>(Not someone who joined up to get needed medicine for
>a sick child, a loan for an apartment, etc.  You know how those bastards
>pushed people around.  I thank God for not having to live under those
>conditions.  I wish nobody had to.).

I mentioned some of the horrors of World War II that my parents went through
in Budapest and said, "what came after that was survivable."  Survivable!
Survivable!!!  Lippai Ur's interpretation:

>He states that his family did not have
>any bad experiences between 1945-1956.  They were in the driver's seat.

In the driver's seat?  In a small village in Vas Megye?  Driver's seat?

Lippai Ur continues:

>The United States did not and does accept communists.  I suspect, that it is
>the reason why his family went to Canada.

No.  My parents chose to come to Canada because they had a premonition that
Istvan Lippai would show up in the United States.

Mister Lippai should consider himself lucky that I'm a nice guy, because if
I weren't, I'd conclude that Istvan Lippai, "a Nagy Magyar", has an acute
case of penis envy!  But I'm a nice guy and I won't draw any conclusions.

Joe Szalai

"They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human
knowledge."
               Thomas B. Reed
+ - Re: Why the secrecy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:01:15 -0800
> From: 
> To: 
> Subject: Nemzet 1996.12.09. C/3
>
> Can someone please tell me why the secrecy? 80 years? That is totally insane!
> What are those commies hiding now? There ought to be a law that allows
> stuff like this to be obtained with the "freedom of information" act.
> Of course there is no such thing in HU. Watch your money go into the
> pockets of those thieves! This is why HU has to get the loans to keep
> these bastards afloat!
> ----------------------
Peter,

   Stop hyperventilating! All governments declare certain documents
secret. I hate to tell you this, but if a document is secret in the
States, you can stand on your head and still won't get it.Only such
documents fall under  the Freedom of  Information Act  that are not
secret any more. The 80 years may be unusual, but the act itself is
not. Please stop applying double standards:  one for the US and one
for Hungary.
   May I remind you that those "bastards"  were elected by the peo-
ple of Hungary. It is one thing to dislike or oppose them,  another
to call them names. You are whining about  all the different things
Hungarians don't do in Hungary and then you show disrespect for the
government.  And after all that  you accuse the  Hungarians for not
having any respect for decency and authority.
   And one more thing.  It is time to  cut out that  "thieves" non-
sense.  Stop the silly innuendoes.  What ever happened to "innocent
until proven guilty" stuff?  The last time I looked  this was still
quite important to the jurisprudence of the USA.  If you don't have
proof, and you don't, stop accusing.
   You are so big on decency, how about following your own advise?
                                                           Amos
+ - environmental position with consultancy company (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In case people interested have not seen this in sci.environment:

George Antony

> --------------------------------------------------------------
we are looking for experts on:

- environmental law UE and Hungary (more than five years experience)
- environmental policy, planning and regional development
- agenda 21
- environmental engineering

fluency in english is a must, fluency in hungarian is a plus

you can reach us by fax in Spain
ibersaic
34 1 326 7982
or by Email 
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, counselor!

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  "Johanne L. Tournier" >
>Date:  Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:21:27 -0400
>
>Hi, Sam!
>
>At 12:28 09/12/96 GMT, you wrote:
><snip snip>
>>I'm sorry I can't react to you in the manner to which you are obviously
>>accustomed. A great deal of your self-worth is apparently derived from
>>putting forth an aggressive ideology and condemning those who do not
agree
>>with it in every particular. While this may make a vivid impression on
>>many you run across, it doesn't with me. You're the guy addicted to
cheap
>>rhetorical tactics, not me. Cheer up, though. You seem to have at least
>>endeared yourself to Johanne le Tourniere.
>
>Geez, I love the attention, but couldn't you spell my name right? Or at
>least make the *le* the feminine *la*?

Should the article agree with the name? La Tourniere or Le Tournier?

>
>Actually I would not agree with calling anyone on our List *garbage*,
>frankly not even that good Doctor that Aniko loves to refer to. However,
I
>think it should not be overlooked the sheer terror which resulted from
the
>Rakosi regime - Charlie Vamossy's recent post gives a pretty good
example.
>The only Hungarian refugee that I was personally familiar with from the
50's
>was Rev. Tornalyay, a Reformed Church minister, and he had been tortured
by
>the Rakosi regime. The cleaning lady across the street was Lithuanian,
and
>she used to go practically into hysterics, because she had been
successful
>in fleeing from the Communists but had no idea what was happening to the
>rest of her family back in Lithuania and was unable to contact them.
Thus,
>although Istvan's reaction may be a bit strong, I think his vehemence is
>much more understandable in a person who has lived through these things
than
>it was in  Senator McCarthy. (The fact is, however, something else that
>people tend to conveniently forget, is that the Communists in the U.S. at
>the time were indeed intent on overthrowing the government of the U.S. by
>force, and they were agents of a foreign power, namely the Soviet Union.)

How convenient that I didn't forget that fact, but pointed it out in my
post to him. By the way, I could tell he warmed the cockles of your little
libertarian heart. He had you cooing out quotes from Barry Goldwater. You
two should never sit near one another in the back of a darkened movie
theater.

His vehemence is inelegant, coarse and degrades the memories of those
innocents who did suffer under Rakosi. Don't you get it? Give him a gun
and the minimal authority necessary and he's the one pulling the trigger
on his political opponents. He's just like the guys who ran Rejcsk.

>The Commies of that era were a brutal, totalitarian regime, and that fact
>should never be forgotten.

You're kind to them. Commies in any era were a hopeless, brutal lot of
thieves and thugs.

>
>Who says the Net is not a
>>vehicle for forming friendships?
>
>Internetfellows make strange politics?

It takes all kinds to make a newsgroup. I'm glad he's your cup of tea.
Sam Stowe

>>
>Viszont,
>
>Johanne/Janka
>Johanne L. Tournier
>e-mail - 
>
>



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>, "Peter
A. Soltesz" > writes:

>> On most commercial jets
>> with wing-mounted engines, the only part of the engine fairing you
should
>> see move during any aspect of flight is at landing when the clamshell
>> deflectors, aka thrust reversers, deploy at the back of the engine to
>> redirect thrust forward and help slow the aircraft. If you see those
>> puppies deploy in flight, you should immediately bend over and smooch
your
>> butt goodbye because the plane will either crash out of control or
break
>> up in mid-air. Happy flying, kids!
>RIGHT ON! -- There is an interlock, thank God!
>
>Peter
>
>

Peter, did anyone ever figure out how the thrust reversers on that Lauda
Air 767 deployed? I read a post-crash report that said the pilots had all
of about six seconds to diagnose the deployment and recover the aircraft
before it exceed the max stress on the air frame. The sucker came apart at
the seams within about fifteen seconds following the deployment.
Sam Stowe

"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-12-09 13:18:52 EST,  (Eva S. Balogh)
writes:

> t 01:39 AM 12/8/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:
>
>  >I was not so fortunate.  The first time I could visit Hungary was in
1973,
> and
>  >that was only after the United States, Dept. of State got the communist
>  >government to agree not harm those of us who participated in the 1956
>  >uprising.
>
>          Are you sure about your dates? The first time we, Hungarian
refugees
>  of 1956, could visit Hungary was 1963. That was the time the Kadar regime
>  came up with the amnesty: let most of the political prisoners out of jail
>  and allowed the refugees to return and visit without fear of retribution.
>  Only very few people were not allowed to return: those who were
responsible
>  for loss of life or whose activities abroad didn't suit them. Those people
>  simply didn't get visa. But if you received a visa you were also fairly
safe
>  from harrassment.
>
>          Eva Balogh
>
Eva,
You are correct. I returned to Hungary for a visit in 1964....I was given a
visa.
Off course I was told by the State Department to be carefull and as soon as
I arrive in Budapest to visit the American Legation - - letting them know of
my
address in case if disappear they would know where to start looking for me.

My cousin would only speak to me on the street, not in my hotel room, just
in case my room was bugged. Also, he would speak to me about certain issues
only while we were walking accross Margit hid (bridge) at 3 o'clock in the
morning.
He was still nerveous, kept looking back, to see if anyone was following us.
I remember all this vividly to this day. No one bothered me though, but I
could hardly wait to cross the border back to Austria and had nightmares
for weeks.

Mr. Lippai however is lost in the woods - - he talks like he is the only one
who has withstood the communist rule in Hungary or knows anything about
it. He needs to humble himself and get off his soap box. Most people on this
list have been there and done that and we all have our own stories. We all
carry our own packs - - but I think he needs to put his pack down for a
while.
I thought I can stay out of this fray, but hell, I can't take it any
more......
Mr. Lippai, Defender of the Faith (DOTF), chill out.

Regards,
Marina
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:58:55 UT
>
>Mr. Stowe,
>
>I think you just clever with words.  Your message indicates that you have
a
>dislike for Hungary and the Hungarian people.

I clever with more than words. I also clever with concepts and character
assessment. Eggsualy, my dear Lippai, I have a deep love and admiration
for Hungary and the Hungarian people. You simply have the misfortune of
not being a typical example of the latter.

>
>What did the millions of Hungarians, squeezed between the major powers,
have
>to do with world politics?  What do they need to be punished for?

Some of those teeming millions helped precipitate the First World War
through their arrogant insistence on forcing minorities within their
borders to culturally assimilate. Unfortunately for the rest, the Allies
undertook a decidely benighted and punitive post-war approach to
reconstructing Hungary. The rest the Hungarians did to themselves through
a spectacular series of backing the wrong horse, from Bela Kun to Miklos
Kallay, domestically and geopolitically. Gee, here's another interesting
parallel between you and Joe Szalai -- I have also had occasion to remind
him, as I will now remind you, that actions have consequences. The proper
question in this context should be: Why do we think we're exempt from the
rules of cause and effect which govern every other nation's history? Sure
you and Joe weren't separated at birth?

>
>If you dislike us so much, what are doing talking to us?  In my 40 years
of
>living in the United States, I have never heard such unfounded
anti-Hungarian
>garbage.

You haven't gotten out much during the past 40 years, have you? To quote a
U.S. President with whom you may be vaguely familiar, I am not giving you
hell; I am telling you the truth and you think it is hell. I've been a
regular on this group for well over a year now because I happen to love
Hungary and have made a large number of friends on this group. A week on
here and you're as popular as a leper at a sorority cotillion.
Sam Stowe

>
>Iistvan Lippai
>
>



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Oops! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: MM es BE vitajahoz ( 53 sor )
>Idopont: Sun Dec  8 15:33:24 EST 1996 HUNGARY #870

        <snip>

I meant to send that to FORUM, not to HUNGARY.  Sorry!

Ferenc
+ - Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In >, T. Kocsis > writes:
>In article > Karen Dunn Skinner,
 writes:
>> I have never had any problems beyond the incredibly small
>>amount of space provided in the overhead lockers on Tupelov planes.
>
>They have gone.  I only flied once with the Tu-154 and it was a char-
>ter flight. On Budapest Zurich Budapest route, always a Boeing-xyz
>flies.

About two months ago I've flown a TU-134, on a regular MALEV-flight to
Cologne.  The machine looked quite terrible and shabby from outside,
but was very clean and nice inside though.  The german passangers seemed
*very* anxious during starting and landing.  It seems they have never
tried a flight on the board of an IL-18...

>>The strangest thing of
>>all, though, is the Hungarian habit of clapping loudly upon landing.
>>This must relate to earlier times, when landing was a true feat.
>
>It must be a stupid Swiss or German habit 'cose they always do
>it.

Germans never do it.  At least I have never experienced it before,
having >100 Lufthansa flights behind me.

Peter
+ - Rakosi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Rakosi (street name "Borzas") left Hungary in July, 1956, never to return.
He was taken to the USSR by the departing Mikoyan and Suslov on their
return after the lightning visit that installed Gero in power.  He lived
out his days in Alma Ata, continuously intriguing and agitating for his
return, never losing the belief that only he can save Hungary from the
ravages of the "soft" Kadar regime.  It took Kadar 5 years before he felt
secure enough in power to dismiss Rakosi from the Party in 1962.  Rakosi
died in 1971, at the age of 79.

A month or two ago there was an article in HVG about the repatriation of
his ashes a few years after his death.  Apparently this weighty issue
required long discussions in the Politburo, and a personal decision by
Kadar himself.  The reburial took place in semi-secret, with only the
immediate family present.  There was no pomp and circumstance, no official
speeches, and no monument; so the comparison to the Horthy funeral is not
entirely apt.  The burial site was repeatedly vandalized for a period of
months, after which the urn was moved to the top shelf, where it remains
inaccessible, with the name obscured and invisible from the ground.

-----
Gabor Fencsik
+ - Re: poetry title (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks to Eva for the translation, also for the two privately sent
versions.  Apparently Balassi's hymns/poems are not translated into
English -- a loss.

Now, like the camel putting his foot into the tent, I'd like to ask about
the next line, since it affects whether the "you" in the first line/title
should be capitalized.  That is, I'm sorry to have to admit that I want
to be reassured that it is not one of Balassi's love poems but instead
one of his religious ones. For those who don't know, in the 16/17th
centuries of the Renaissance and Baroque periods the two kinds of poetry
were much closer than we moderns would expect.


Felseges uristen!  es kemeny ostorod,
Kivel tagaimat
Buneimert nekem igen ostorozod.



Thanks very much for every response!

Norma Rudinsky


+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr. Stowe,

>From my very first day on, I have been treated well by Americans (my fellow
Americans since 1963).  I was told many times of Hungarians, who earned the
respect of Americans because of their hard work, integrity and loyalty.

I do not know what rock you  have crawled out from under.  You are not
anything like the Americans I know and respect.  Never-never did any of my
fellow Americans tell me anything like dirty anti-Hungarian garbage you are
peddling here.

You claim to have "a deep love and admiration for Hungary and the Hungarian
people", yet you continue to bring up the rare negative examples in our
history that most Hungarians did not have anything to do with, yet paid dearly
for it.  How much more pain and suffering my people should endure to satisfy
the likes of you?

The United States president you were feebly trying to quote is Harry S.
Truman.  The 33rd president of the United States.  He was the first United
States president who stood up to the Soviets to defend the free world.  I am
proud to be a United States citizen and our role in crushing the Soviet
empire.  It is because of the courage of this great nation that there are no
more Soviet troops in Hungary.  I do not dwell on the negatives in American
history.  I leave it up to those who envy and resent the United States.

My right or obligation to speak out on issues concerning Hungary does not
depend on how long I have been on this list.  You seem to assume that being on
the list for one year gives you a right to insult and condemn us.  I am a
Hungarian and I was a Hungarian long before this list.  I believe that my
fellow Hungarians (no matter how much they object to my style) do not question
my right to join in a discussion concerning our people.

I was raised in "Angyalfold".  My Hungarian brothers and sisters know that
they will not get a polite conversation from an Angyalfold-i over issues that
I feel strongly about.  I believe that they will accept me for who I am.

You do not have a clue.  Do you Mr. Stowe?

Lippai Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Sam Stowe
Sent:  Monday, December 09, 1996 7:15 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:58:55 UT
>
>Mr. Stowe,
>
>I think you just clever with words.  Your message indicates that you have
a
>dislike for Hungary and the Hungarian people.

I clever with more than words. I also clever with concepts and character
assessment. Eggsualy, my dear Lippai, I have a deep love and admiration
for Hungary and the Hungarian people. You simply have the misfortune of
not being a typical example of the latter.

>
>What did the millions of Hungarians, squeezed between the major powers,
have
>to do with world politics?  What do they need to be punished for?

Some of those teeming millions helped precipitate the First World War
through their arrogant insistence on forcing minorities within their
borders to culturally assimilate. Unfortunately for the rest, the Allies
undertook a decidely benighted and punitive post-war approach to
reconstructing Hungary. The rest the Hungarians did to themselves through
a spectacular series of backing the wrong horse, from Bela Kun to Miklos
Kallay, domestically and geopolitically. Gee, here's another interesting
parallel between you and Joe Szalai -- I have also had occasion to remind
him, as I will now remind you, that actions have consequences. The proper
question in this context should be: Why do we think we're exempt from the
rules of cause and effect which govern every other nation's history? Sure
you and Joe weren't separated at birth?

>
>If you dislike us so much, what are doing talking to us?  In my 40 years
of
>living in the United States, I have never heard such unfounded
anti-Hungarian
>garbage.

You haven't gotten out much during the past 40 years, have you? To quote a
U.S. President with whom you may be vaguely familiar, I am not giving you
hell; I am telling you the truth and you think it is hell. I've been a
regular on this group for well over a year now because I happen to love
Hungary and have made a large number of friends on this group. A week on
here and you're as popular as a leper at a sorority cotillion.
Sam Stowe

>
>Iistvan Lippai
>
>



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marina,

I was one of the fortunate ones.  I was not imprisoned or tortured.  I have
friends who were.  We all lived in fear because it took so little to get
arrested, tortured, and killed.

I speak of our collective pain because you do not.  The Hungarian history
between 1945-1956, and the events during 1956 was written by the communist
garbage.  We need to tell how it really was.  It is our history, yours and
mine.  Instead of attacking me, why don't you help me.

There is room on the soap box for any and all of us.  You are even welcome to
take my place.

Best wishes.

Istvan




----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Marina E. Pflieger
Sent:  Monday, December 09, 1996 10:30 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

In a message dated 96-12-09 13:18:52 EST,  (Eva S. Balogh)
writes:

> t 01:39 AM 12/8/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:
>
>  >I was not so fortunate.  The first time I could visit Hungary was in
1973,
> and
>  >that was only after the United States, Dept. of State got the communist
>  >government to agree not harm those of us who participated in the 1956
>  >uprising.
>
>          Are you sure about your dates? The first time we, Hungarian
refugees
>  of 1956, could visit Hungary was 1963. That was the time the Kadar regime
>  came up with the amnesty: let most of the political prisoners out of jail
>  and allowed the refugees to return and visit without fear of retribution.
>  Only very few people were not allowed to return: those who were
responsible
>  for loss of life or whose activities abroad didn't suit them. Those people
>  simply didn't get visa. But if you received a visa you were also fairly
safe
>  from harrassment.
>
>          Eva Balogh
>
Eva,
You are correct. I returned to Hungary for a visit in 1964....I was given a
visa.
Off course I was told by the State Department to be carefull and as soon as
I arrive in Budapest to visit the American Legation - - letting them know of
my
address in case if disappear they would know where to start looking for me.

My cousin would only speak to me on the street, not in my hotel room, just
in case my room was bugged. Also, he would speak to me about certain issues
only while we were walking accross Margit hid (bridge) at 3 o'clock in the
morning.
He was still nerveous, kept looking back, to see if anyone was following us.
I remember all this vividly to this day. No one bothered me though, but I
could hardly wait to cross the border back to Austria and had nightmares
for weeks.

Mr. Lippai however is lost in the woods - - he talks like he is the only one
who has withstood the communist rule in Hungary or knows anything about
it. He needs to humble himself and get off his soap box. Most people on this
list have been there and done that and we all have our own stories. We all
carry our own packs - - but I think he needs to put his pack down for a
while.
I thought I can stay out of this fray, but hell, I can't take it any
more......
Mr. Lippai, Defender of the Faith (DOTF), chill out.

Regards,
Marina
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:29 PM 12/9/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>That would require reposting nearly everything you've ever posted on here.
>I don't know that readers would have the patience to wade through all
>that. Your world view shows an almost fanatical and exclusive focus on the
>radical goal of equivalent outcomes for every member of society. You waste
>no opportunity in speaking out against what you perceive as injustice. Yet
>you seem unable or unwilling to grasp the simple fact that people's
>outcomes in life can be enhanced or limited by factors beyond the scope of
>government -- personal choices, intelligence, education, economic
>opportunity or the lack thereof and pure dumb luck, among others. For all
>your professed love of your fellow man and woman, you don't seem to
>understand them very well.
>Sam Stowe

Thank you for this less than brilliant, anti-democratic, mini-thesis.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
<SNIP>
>         There are no communists on this list. Not even Eva Durant or Joe
> Szalai. You are off somewhere in left field. Sorry, right field!
>
Sorry Eva, but I think you are confused. In the West at least, LEFT means
leftist or socialist or communist, while the RIGHT is the opposite.
Perhaps it is because in HU it seems backwards where the liberals are the
conservatives and viceversa.
Peter
+ - Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Sam Stowe wrote:
<SNIP>
> Peter, did anyone ever figure out how the thrust reversers on that Lauda
> Air 767 deployed? I read a post-crash report that said the pilots had all
> of about six seconds to diagnose the deployment and recover the aircraft
> before it exceed the max stress on the air frame. The sucker came apart at
> the seams within about fifteen seconds following the deployment.
> Sam Stowe
Not to my knowledge. Some interlocks require a pressure on the landing
gears before it can be engaged. Peter
+ - Re: Communist or not? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 10 Dec 1992, Durant wrote:
<SNIP>
> All major parties in HUngary wants the international money
> markets and loans.
Perhaps it is because no-one wants to byte the bullet. It is much easier
to live off the backs of the future generation than your own. Besides,
they will be fat & happy --- with all the secrecy going on they will be
long gone & dead before anyone finds out for sure!

> Why should they care, they cannot loose.
Usually it is because a bank has some colleteral to back the up. So
perhaps Hungary should be SOLD or taken over by the World Bank, IMF, et
al???

> I'd like to see data to underline this statement. Census Buro says,
> that one in 4 children in the US lives in poverty and 1.5 millions
> are undernaurished. Not an example to follow, whatever the type of
> the private enterprise.
> 
>
Eva, I have no idea where you get this non-sense from! What you are
saying is that 25% of the children are in poverty. Whose propaganda are
you listening to? Let me assure you that it is not so! Perhaps you were
looking at some very focused study in the inner-ghettos or something???
Peter
+ - Re: Why the secrecy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, DANUBE wrote:
<SNIP>
>    Stop hyperventilating! All governments declare certain documents
> secret. I hate to tell you this, but if a document is secret in the
> States, you can stand on your head and still won't get it.Only such
> documents fall under  the Freedom of  Information Act  that are not
> secret any more. The 80 years may be unusual, but the act itself is
> not. Please stop applying double standards:  one for the US and one
> for Hungary.

Well at least you admit that 80 yrs is unusual! BTW in the US there are
very strict codes on what does become classified secret. In this case
there are many serious criminal wrongdoings that obviously went on.
Perhaps Mr. Danube you do not read the daily barrage of corruption and
theft news from Hungary -- spend some time and read over the last few
months and you will see. Yes they are bastards! They are stealing the
country blind with no accounting to anyone (except to themselves).

>    May I remind you that those "bastards"  were elected by the peo-
> ple of Hungary. It is one thing to dislike or oppose them,  another
> to call them names. You are whining about  all the different things
> Hungarians don't do in Hungary and then you show disrespect for the
> government.  And after all that  you accuse the  Hungarians for not
> having any respect for decency and authority.

There is a BIG difference between having respect for authority that is
right vs. one that is wrong, dishonest and corrupt!

>    And one more thing.  It is time to  cut out that  "thieves" non-
> sense.  Stop the silly innuendoes.  What ever happened to "innocent
> until proven guilty" stuff?  The last time I looked  this was still
> quite important to the jurisprudence of the USA.  If you don't have
> proof, and you don't, stop accusing.
Well, if they are not guilty, as you proclaim, let them show their
innocence by opening up the files related to oilgate, etc.
BTW why are many people being fired or transferred from many high level
jobs in HU? Is it perhaps because they were/are not doing a good job?
As far as proof is concerned, again I will let you read the documentation
floating around in many of the HU papers. I suppose that it is perfectly
OK to not accuse people or govt's because everything they do is hidden
thus no proof. Boy what circular reasoning!
>    You are so big on decency, how about following your own advise?
>                                                            Amos
The decent thing would be to open up and let anyone see the documents.
Of course that will never happen because they ARE guilty!
Peter
+ - Re: To Canadians only (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Andy Kozma wrote:
><SNIP>
>> >definitly not by your methods.us poor canadians realy do not need your
ideas.
>> andy.
>There you go again Andy! I guess if does not mean anything to you then it
>should not to me either. Yet it does. I like to listen to RCI and so do
>many others. If you do not want to be helpful in solving this problem like
>some others like Aniko (who behaved quite civil and actually sent info
>about where to send information). So Andy You you obviously got up on the
>wrong side of the bed again! Go back to sleep Please!.
>
>Perhaps one day you will learn what it means to help someone that is
>trying to help you (perhaps not you personally).
>Peter
>
>thank's for your advice.actualy i just had shoulder surgery,and to your
satisfaction it is qiute painfull.i am only typing with one finger,and i did
not know you are such an individual who cares about all and evrithing in
this world.
i hope you take aniko's advice and follow them.
i wish i could go back to sleep,but the pain keeps me up.
thank's for your good wishes,just the same.
andy.
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Mon, 9 Dec 1996 20:55:22 UT
>
>Ms. Balogh,
>
>From your listings I have to conclude that you are every bit as smart as
you
>claim to be.  You probably write much-much better English and Hungarian
than
>I
>do.  You seem to have superior knowledge of events and dates.

Have you guys noticed that his posts always follow the same programmatic
construction? He opens with a bow to his intended target, acknowledging
right off the bat that he or she is smarter, better educated, more
verbally acute, etc. than Lippai ur. Then he turns around and lights a
match to this false humility in subsequent paragraphs.

>
>What good it is if you use your impressive talents to label and ridicule
>Hungarians who do not agree with your liberal views?

Don't psychologists call this "projection"? Lippai ur is the one who
stormed in here in the first place, stating his political and religious
beliefs right off the bat and labeling anyone who disagreed with him
"garbage."

>
>I came upon this list by accident.  I was looking for works of "Petofi
>Sandor"
>and this list showed up.  I read most of the messages.  I was impressed
with
>the postings of my fellow Hungarians who and wanted to partake.  I was
also
>extremely disturbed by your, Szalai's and Durants's postings.

I can see why he would be disturbed by Durant -- she's as obtuse and
hidebound as he is. I don't know why he feels threatened by Joe's posts.
Joe may disagree vehemently with others, but he's still a live and let
live kind of guy. Lippai ur had damned well better be disturbed by Eva
Balogh. She's a hell of a lot more smarter than he is.

>
>I wanted to respond to the pro-Communist, anti-American, anti-Hungarian
>rhetoric.

No, you wanted attention. You must be a very lonely man. You could find
fellowship here, but that's not likely to happen as long as you insist on
calling everyone who disagrees with you "garbage."

>I deliberately used strong language.  All of a sudden, the
>liberals
>and communists came out of the woodworks, protesting my language and
>statements. (We have liberals and conservatives, same as any other group
of
>people.  I may not agree with liberals, but I there are some liberals I
can
>respect.  Even one, murdering, communist garbage is too much.).

All this talk about "garbage" -- were you one of those engineers who wears
an orange jump suit and rides on the back bumper of a truck?

>
>I was accused of preaching, condemning, and trying push my ideas on
others.
>This is exactly what you and your liberal and communist friends have been
>doing to the Hungarians on this list.
>If you cannot take it, do not dish it out.

The scalped dog yelps loudest. Post-communist Hungary offers a wide
variety of political viewpoints. Most of all, it offers an escape from the
mindless intrusion of political dogma into every aspect of private life. A
bigot truly dedicated to his particular brand of intellectual snake oil
really has his work cut out for him these days. Folks just aren't buying
it like they used to. You are a man doomed to a lot of frustration.
Sam Stowe
>
>Lippai Istvan



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:49 AM 12/10/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

>His [Lippai's] vehemence is inelegant, coarse and degrades the memories of
those
>innocents who did suffer under Rakosi. Don't you get it? Give him a gun
>and the minimal authority necessary and he's the one pulling the trigger
>on his political opponents. He's just like the guys who ran Rejcsk.

        Mr. Lippai, in addition to his public outbursts, also likes to write
private letters. I received the following this morning:

>After reading a number of your postings, I concluded that you were
>anti-Hungarian, anti-American communist garbage.

        Inelegant? Just a bit!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: poetry title (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:28 AM 12/10/96 -0800, Norma wrote:

>That is, I'm sorry to have to admit that I want
>to be reassured that it is not one of Balassi's love poems but instead
>one of his religious ones. For those who don't know, in the 16/17th
>centuries of the Renaissance and Baroque periods the two kinds of poetry
>were much closer than we moderns would expect.
>
>
>Felseges uristen!  es kemeny ostorod,
>Kivel tagaimat
>Buneimert nekem igen ostorozod

        You can be assured that it is a religious poem and therefore in the
first line (title) instead of "you," or "You," maybe you should use "Thy."

"Heavenly Father! and Thy harsh whip,
With which Thy severely flog my limbs for my sins"

        Not very elegant but this is the best I can do. Perhaps Gabor
Fencsik can be more eloquent.

        By the way, you are right. Balassi was a great poet and it is too
bad that his poems are not available even in inferior translations.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Rakosi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:10 PM 12/9/96 PST, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>The reburial took place in semi-secret, with only the
>immediate family present.  There was no pomp and circumstance, no official
>speeches, and no monument; so the comparison to the Horthy funeral is not
>entirely apt.  The burial site was repeatedly vandalized for a period of
>months, after which the urn was moved to the top shelf, where it remains
>inaccessible, with the name obscured and invisible from the ground.

        Sure, the two burials were conducted differently, but I was thinking
more in terms about "burial in Hungarian soil" aspect of the question.
Surely, Horthy had the right to be buried in Hungary. It is another matter
in which manner that burial should have taken place.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:14 AM 12/10/96 GMT, Sam wrote:
>A week on
>here and you're as popular as a leper at a sorority cotillion.
>Sam Stowe

        I just love Sam's sayings? I guess this is a Southern expression.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The English Patient (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:36 PM 12/9/96 -0400, Johanna wrote:

>BTW, while we are on the subject of explorers, can you or anyone else tell
>us anything about Arminius Vambery. I am interested in him because he was
>apparently one of Bram Stoker's sources for the book *Dracula* (he makes
>reference in the book to *Professor Arminius*) yet apparently there is no
>evidence that Stoker - who never travelled to Central Europe - ever met
>Vambery. Stoker, for those people who don't know, spent years as the
>theatrical manager for the foremost actor in England at the time, Sir Henry
>Irving. Do you have any ideas as to how Stoker and Vambery might have become
>acquainted? Did Vambery ever travel to England?
>
>Maybe this is a little bit obscure . . .

        Not obscure at all because Armin Vambery is a well known man in
Hungary. Born in 1832 and died in 1913 became a world famous orientalist,
university professor, and an expert on Turkish philology. Was also a member
of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. He came from a poor family and during
his studies he supported himself with tutoring. Apparently he had a fabulous
talent for languages and with the help of Jozsef Eotvos he managed to spend
four years in Constantinople while publishing extensively in different
international periodicals. He returned to Hungary with the idea of trying to
find the original birthplace of the Hungarians in Asia (left on the
expedition in 1861 and returned in 1864). His trip was quite eventful and he
managed to stay alive by pretending to be a dervish attached to some
caravan. (He did write a book on his travels to Central Asia but I don't
know whether it is available in English or not.) Eventually he became
professor of eastern languages at the University of Budapest.

        I also seem to remember that he was a favorite of Queen Victoria. I
am sure that you will find his autobiography: The Story of My Struggles. And
yes, as far as I know he was the one who told the Dracula story to Stoker.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:24 AM 12/10/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
><SNIP>
>>         There are no communists on this list. Not even Eva Durant or Joe
>> Szalai. You are off somewhere in left field. Sorry, right field!
>>
>Sorry Eva, but I think you are confused. In the West at least, LEFT means
>leftist or socialist or communist, while the RIGHT is the opposite.
>Perhaps it is because in HU it seems backwards where the liberals are the
>conservatives and viceversa.
>Peter

        Why am I confused? The expression "out left field," to my knowledge,
comes from baseball. (I know practically nothing about baseball except some
of the expressions related to the game.) Surely, Mr. Lippai is not "left
field" but "right field." A bit of variation on the baseball expression,
which, politically speaking, is correct.

        Eva Balogh
+ - FIDESZ discussion paper (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Magda Zimanyi and readers of this list:

        I followed Magda's suggestion and downloaded the FIDESZ (Young
Democrats) program which is described by its authors as the "basis of
discussion." The title of the lengthy (well over 200,000 characters)
treatise is "A polga'ri Magyarorsza'ge'rt." The adjective "polga'ri" is hard
to translate: it may mean "civic," "bourgeois," or "middle-class." In any
case, this adjective is the trademark of FIDESZ which lately calls itself
"Magyar Polga'ri Pa'rt."

        At the very beginning I will state that I found the treatise
somewhat baffling, starting at the very beginning, i.e., with the motto.
Perhaps some of our friends from Hungary, especially those who are more
familiar with the political stance of the FIDESZ, could explain to us what
the leadership of FIDESZ mean by this motto: "Ke't poga'ny ko:zt egy
haza'e'rt!" [Between two pagans for one fatherland!] Who are the pagans,
i.e., the undesirables, in today's configuration either on the homefront, or
in the world?

        After a short preamble there are three chapters. The preamble states
that the party thinks that after eight years since the foundation of the
FIDESZ (1988) and six years after the establishment of parliamentary
democracy the party feels confident in assessing the history of the last
eight years and projecting its ideas about the future.

        The first chapter is written by Viktor Orban, the head of the party.
It carries the subtitle: "A polga'ri jovo" pa'rtja," that is, the FIDESZ is
the party of the "civic future, bourgeois future, middle-class future."
According to Orban,

        (1) the FIDESZ is a liberal--szabadelvu", as opposed to libera'lis
and I think that in this case the distinction is of some importance,
although under normal circumstances the two words mean the same--party based
on the idea of "liberty, equality, and solidarity," but it takes into
account "the specific east-central European or rather homegrown conditions."
Orban claims that the party follows the ideas of democracy, market economy
which is "society and environemntal friendly." It considers the rule of law
supreme and "it follows the ideas and principles of national and
euro-atlantic commitment."

        (2). "A magyarsa'g: Kelet ne'pe. Magyarorsza'g to:rte'nelme azonban
ezer e've a nyugati kereszte'ny mu"veltse'g mora'lis e's kultu'ra'lis
e'rte'kein alapulo' euro'pai civiliza'cio re'sze," says Viktor Orba'n.

        I must admit I would have been happier if the sentence, "A
magyarsa'g: Kelet ne'pe" [The Hungarians are people of the East] were left
out. I have two reasons for wishing so: (a) it makes the Hungarians appear
to be radically different from their neighbors, and (b) it reminds me of the
populist movement of the thirties. The first objection is definitely more
weighty than the second. First of all, although the Hungarians originally
came from the East, so did all their neighbors. The Slavs were just as much
migratory peoples at one time, coming from the East as the Hungarians were a
few hundred years later. Second, even if in the ninth, ten, eleventh
centuries this relatively new arrival was registered as somewhat important,
by the twentieth century it has no meaning whatsoever. Unless one wants the
neighboring Slavs and Romanians point to our "backwardness," our
"barbarity," or we, Hungarians, want to emphasize our difference in relation
to our neighbors. In either case, it is better to forget it. We, Hungarians,
don't want to hear the Czechs, the Slovaks, or the Romanians to say that we
are inferior hordes from the East. And if we don't like to hear that, we
better not emphasize that "we are people of the East." If we do, then let's
not get too upset about the derogatory remarks of our neighbors! As for the
populism of the 1930s I have high aversion to the whole movement and a group
of populist writers actually established a literary magazine called "Kelet
ne'pe." All my objections to the term applies to the ideas of the populist
movement which characterized us as somewhat different from our neighbors and
therefore our political and economic answers must also be different,
because, after all, we are "Kelet ne'pe." The whole notion should not be
part of our modern political vocabulary.

        Orban then continues: the FIDESZ "accepts the whole Hungarian past,
with its success and with its failures.... One can interpret this past in
many different ways but it must be accepted." I don't want to go into the
ins and outs of "what is history," but put it this way: I have serious
problems with interpretations of history which can vary and "history" with
capital letters which is independent of our interpretation of it. As if that
"history" has a life of its own and members of the FIDESZ are the ones who
have the key to its real meaning. I think this is nonsense. We have no
"independent HISTORY." The only thing we have is "interpretations of
history." And, of course, the question is which interpretation of history we
are ready to embrace? And that is not immaterial.

        The next paragraph I also find very interesting and therefore I will
quote it in the original. "A ma'sokat lebecsulo" nemzeti o:nhittse'gnek
nincs e'rtelme. Sem okunk, sem szu:kse'gu:nk nincs ra'. De az ala'zatos
ke'relmezo", a szege'ny rokon szerepe're sincs, aki bebocsa'ta'sra va'r
Euro'pa kapui elo"tt, aki nevele'sre, gondoskoda'sra, e's ta'mogata'sra
szorul, e's csak vinni akar. Ez me'ltatlan szerep e's o:nlebecsu:le's volna.
Magyarorsza'g e's a magyarsa'g csupa'n azt a helyet akarja isme't elfoglalni
Euro'paban, amely o"t eszme'nyei e's teljesi'tme'nye: e'rte'kei,
to:rte'nelmi mu'ltja e's jelene alapja'n me'lta'n megilleti."

        Here what I find most interesting is the first couple of sentences
compared to the others. You may realize, even if you don't immediately
understand the meaning of these two sentences that they are very short in
comparison to the long two sentences which follow. The first sentence simply
says: "National conceit which disparages others makes no sense." The second:
"We have no reason for it, we have no need for it." I would consider this
somewhat of an understatement especially in a very nationalistic Eastern
Europe where the "disparaging" of others is a national passtime, and where
nationalism is much stronger than any other part of Europe. "National
conceit which disparages others" is a cardinal sin, as far as I am
concerned, and it deserves more than simply saying "it doesn't make any
sense," or that "there is no reason," or "no need" for it.

        The second half of the statement concerns Hungary's standing in
Europe. Orban emphasizes that "we should not act as humble petitioner," and
we have no reason to act "the role of poor relative who is waiting for
admittance in front of the gates of Europe." Instead, "Hungary and the
Hungarians simply want to occupy their place in Europe which they deserve on
the basis of their ideals and their achievements: their values, their
historical past and present." In theory, of course, Viktor Orban is right
but in reality Hungary and the Hungarians are "waiting for admittance in
front of the gates of Europe," and Hungary's admittance to the European
Union is really up to its member states. It may not be fair, but this is how
it is.

        And now comes a paragraph which puzzles me especially considering
that Viktor Orban is the liaison man between Hungary and the European Union.
Linking up this paragraph to the former, he claims that "this is especially
so because Europe has not yet found its new shape within which we should
look for our place. Its old role and calling in many ways have been lost,
its old authority has been shaken, and its new has not been formed and
established." Well, if that is the case, why on earth do we want to belong
to that European Union which is in total disarray? Moreover, he goes even
further when he emphasizes the "differences" within Europe as opposed to
what keeps the Europeans together. In order to bolster that claim he quotes
Sa'ndor Ma'rai, a Hungarian writer, who in 1942 was pondering the future of
Europe in which "some kind of civic, governmental organization would force
the people living here into a common lifestyle." This of course is a totally
ridiculous notion, said Ma'rai. In such a case "Europe would lose its
historical role, would become a huge factory yard and a concentration camp
of peoples." I think one could ask with some justification why does Viktor
Orban quote somebody from 1942 concerning the Europe of today?

        (3) This point is devoted to the Hungarians who live beyond the
borders of Hungary. "The program of the party wishes to be the program of
the community of citizens of Hungary as well as the program of the Hungarian
national community."

        (4) Viktor Orban here makes a distinction between the liberalism
(szabadelvu"se'g) of the nineteenth century (Szechenyi, Kossuth, Deak,
Eotvos) and the "radical liberalism of the twentieth century." In plain
language it tries to make clear that the FIDESZ's liberalism has nothing to
do with the liberalism of the SZDSZ.

        (5) He reiterates his belief that modernization and the development
of a healthy middle class cannot be achieved without the "psychological,
spiritual, and moral renewal."

        To be continued.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The English Patient (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves E'va!

At 11:34 10/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
<sznip>
>        Not obscure at all because Armin Vambery is a well known man in
>Hungary. Born in 1832 and died in 1913 became a world famous orientalist,
>university professor, and an expert on Turkish philology.

<sznip>
>        I also seem to remember that he was a favorite of Queen Victoria. I
>am sure that you will find his autobiography: The Story of My Struggles. And
>yes, as far as I know he was the one who told the Dracula story to Stoker.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Terrific! I think that is actually the most I have ever seen on Vambery,
although I did find references to him in a couple of my books on Hungary,
for instance, Sisa's *The Spirit of Hungary.*

BTW, would he have likely traveled to England, then, if he was a favorite of
Queen Victoria's? If he was fluent in English, I could imagine that he would
have cut quite an exotic figure at the English court, and he would have
regaled the courtiers and the Queen, I am sure, with stories of his adventures.

What is the title of his autobiography in Hungarian?

Nagyon sze'pen ko:szo:no:m,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:34 10/12/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>(Eva)
>>>         There are no communists on this list. Not even Eva Durant or Joe
>>> Szalai. You are off somewhere in left field. Sorry, right field!
>
(Peter)
>>Sorry Eva, but I think you are confused. In the West at least, LEFT means
>>leftist or socialist or communist, while the RIGHT is the opposite.
>>Perhaps it is because in HU it seems backwards where the liberals are the
>>conservatives and viceversa.
>>Peter
(Eva)
>        Why am I confused? The expression "out left field," to my knowledge,
>comes from baseball. (I know practically nothing about baseball except some
>of the expressions related to the game.) Surely, Mr. Lippai is not "left
>field" but "right field." A bit of variation on the baseball expression,
>which, politically speaking, is correct.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Hali, E'va!

It makes sense to me. *Out in left field,* carries the connotation of
someone who is *way out* in their views, a bit kooky in other words, not
really *left wing* politically. But, given Lippai ur's political bent, it
makes sense to amend that to say *ooops, right field,* which is a play on
the expression that I think most Americans would understand. You're still
saying he is *way out* but on the *right side of politics,* and not the
*left side,* isn't that right?!

Viszont,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Why the secrecy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

> there are many serious criminal wrongdoings that obviously went on.
> Perhaps Mr. Danube you do not read the daily barrage of corruption and
> theft news from Hungary -- spend some time and read over the last few
> months and you will see. Yes they are bastards! They are stealing the
> country blind with no accounting to anyone (except to themselves).

   You mean alleged "criminal wrongdoings" and alleged "barrage of
   corruption"?
>
> There is a BIG difference between having respect for authority that is
> right vs. one that is wrong, dishonest and corrupt!

   Alleged!!!

> >    And one more thing.  It is time to  cut out that  "thieves" non-
> > sense.  Stop the silly innuendoes.  What ever happened to "innocent
> > until proven guilty" stuff?  The last time I looked  this was still
> > quite important to the jurisprudence of the USA.  If you don't have
> > proof, and you don't, stop accusing.

> Well, if they are not guilty, as you proclaim, let them show their
> innocence by opening up the files related to oilgate, etc.
> BTW why are many people being fired or transferred from many high level
> jobs in HU? Is it perhaps because they were/are not doing a good job?
> As far as proof is concerned, again I will let you read the documentation
> floating around in many of the HU papers. I suppose that it is perfectly
> OK to not accuse people or govt's because everything they do is hidden
> thus no proof. Boy what circular reasoning!

   Try to read my lines again. Where did I say they were not guilty?
   I only have said that there is no proof that they are.  Huge dif-
   difference!! What I have said is above, try to deny it.

> The decent thing would be to open up and let anyone see the documents.
> Of course that will never happen because they ARE guilty!
> Peter
>
   So you have appointed yourself judge and jury. Splendid! Eventually
you will have to make up your mind  whether you want constitutionality
in Hungary or not.Or perhaps you want to wait with this until the peo-
ple you have declared guilty will be punished.  And then  you are sur-
prised, and even hurt, when Hungarians tell you where to go.
   I guess I am wasting my energies,
                                      Amos
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:29 AM 12/10/96 -0500, Marina wrote:

>Eva,
>You are correct. I returned to Hungary for a visit in 1964....I was given a
>visa.
>Off course I was told by the State Department to be carefull and as soon as
>I arrive in Budapest to visit the American Legation - - letting them know of
>my
>address in case if disappear they would know where to start looking for me.
>
>My cousin would only speak to me on the street, not in my hotel room, just
>in case my room was bugged. Also, he would speak to me about certain issues
>only while we were walking accross Margit hid (bridge) at 3 o'clock in the
>morning.
>He was still nerveous, kept looking back, to see if anyone was following us.
>I remember all this vividly to this day. No one bothered me though, but I
>could hardly wait to cross the border back to Austria and had nightmares
>for weeks.

        I visited the first time in 1965. I was scared as anything and spent
one of my worst nights in a Viennese hotel before actually flying to
Budapest. On arrival I did two things: (1) immediately went to the British
Embassy (in those days there was no separate Canadian embassy) and (2) sent
a telegram to a friend of mine, a journalist, who was supposed to act if she
didn't hear from me. The three weeks went off without any incident except I
lost my voice most likely because of nervousness and because I was being
dragged from house to house. And, just like you, I was extremely happy to be
on the plane. We made a short stopover in Vienna and there were some
Hungarians on the plane who were being let out to visit relatives. None of
them spoke a word of any foreign language, and when it was announced that we
all had to leave the plane all the Hungarians remained seated. Realizing
this I stood up and translated for them. What a difference between then and
now. Not only most of the Hungarians on flights speak foreign languages but
even the Dutch stewardess spoke Hungarian during one of my KLM flights!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> The United States president you were feebly trying to quote is Harry S.
> Truman.  The 33rd president of the United States.  He was the first United
> States president who stood up to the Soviets to defend the free world.  I am
> proud to be a United States citizen and our role in crushing the Soviet
> empire.  It is because of the courage of this great nation that there are no
> more Soviet troops in Hungary.  I do not dwell on the negatives in American
> history.  I leave it up to those who envy and resent the United States.
>

> >
> >Iistvan Lippai
> >
> >


I hate to contradict, but the S.U. pretty well crumbled
itself, I think the U.S. was taken unawares.
And shows the present state of capitalism, that it
couldn't even take advantage of  this extra
unexpected bonus.

I wonder if East Timor, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia etc, etc
are part of what you call free world. The U.S. certainly
can manage to live with them. Not to mention China...
I cannot observe a vehement struggle on the part of the
U.S. to free China... But if it will collapse, no doubt,
Mr Lippai has done it single-handed...

Please do not copy full texts, I'm seem to be reading
enough b.s. as it is.


+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         Why am I confused? The expression "out left field," to my knowledge,
> comes from baseball. (I know practically nothing about baseball except some
> of the expressions related to the game.) Surely, Mr. Lippai is not "left
> field" but "right field." A bit of variation on the baseball expression,
> which, politically speaking, is correct.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>-------------------

   Actually, he is "way off field". Couldn't resist,
                                                    Amos
+ - News - OMRI: Daily Digest - 96-12-09 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

OMRI: Daily Digest, Vol. 2, No. 236, 96-12-09

Vol. 2, No. 236, 9 December 1996

CONTENTS:
[B] SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE
[06] SERBIAN COURT BACKS MILOSEVIC.
[07] PROTESTS CONTINUE THROUGHOUT SERBIA.
[08] KRAJISNIK SAYS BOSNIAN SERBS CANNOT ACCEPT LOSS OF BRCKO.
[09] CROATIA'S TUDJMAN BLASTS ENEMIES . . .
[10] . . . AND DECORATES INDICTED WAR CRIMINAL.
[11] DONORS PLEDGE OVER $30 MILLION FOR EASTERN SLAVONIA.
[12] SLOVENES REJECT ELECTORAL REFORM.
[13] ROMANIAN PARTIES SIGN RULING COALITION ACCORD.
[14] DNIESTER MEDIATORS WELCOME LISBON DOCUMENT.
[15] BULGARIAN OPPOSITION LEADER CALLS FOR NATIONAL CONSENSUS.
[16] MOSQUE IN BULGARIA DAMAGED IN EXPLOSION.
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

[B] SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE

[06] SERBIAN COURT BACKS MILOSEVIC.

Amid continuing daily mass protests across Serbia, the Serbian Supreme
Court rejected an appeal by Belgrade's electoral commission to have the 17
November local election results -- in which the Zajedno opposition
coalition won a majority -- recognized, Beta reported on 8 December. The
court ruling has effectively upheld a third round of balloting that
awarded
the ruling Socialists 66 of 110 seats in the Belgrade municipal assembly.
Electoral commission head Radovan Lazarevic has taken up a further appeal
with the federal supreme court, the federal public prosecutor and the
republic's public prosecutor. -- Stan Markotich

[07] PROTESTS CONTINUE THROUGHOUT SERBIA.

On 8 December the demonstration in Nis attracted some 50,000 participants,
many of whom smashed television sets in protest of the regime's biased
media coverage, Reuters reported. Opposition leaders have also told the
international press that police harassment and arrest of peaceful
demonstrators continues, with at least 40 persons having been apprehended
so far. For his part, Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic, in the face of
growing demands for both a recognition of opposition victories in local
polling and calls for his own resignation, tore up a draft memorandum on
press freedom presented by a member of the U.S.-based Committee to Protect
Journalists. Finally, Serbian Information Minister Aleksandar Tijanic
formally tendered his resignation on 6 December, Tanjug reported. -- Stan
Markotich

[08] KRAJISNIK SAYS BOSNIAN SERBS CANNOT ACCEPT LOSS OF BRCKO.

The Serb representative of Bosnia's three-member presidency, Momcilo
Krajisnik, said the key Bosnian town of Brcko must be made an integral
part
of the Bosnian-Serb entity, AFP reported on 7 December. Krajisnik said he
is opposed to any move that would put the town under international
administration. Brcko is claimed by both Muslims and Serbs. The town had a
Muslim majority before the war. Today, Brcko is the only link between the
eastern an western parts of Serb-held territory in northern Bosnia. Under
the Dayton peace accord, control of Brcko should be decided by an
arbitration commission by 14 December, but Serb Prime Minister Gojko
Klickovic said the Serbs would pull out and ignore the ruling of the
commission because they distrust its chairman, Roberts Owen. -- Daria Sito
Sucic

[09] CROATIA'S TUDJMAN BLASTS ENEMIES . . .

President Franjo Tudjman again warned that those who complain about human
rights and media freedom in Croatia are really seeking to subvert the
Croatian state, _Slobodna Dalmacija_ reported on 8 December. He said these
critics are enemies of Croatian independence or "communist remnants." In a
tirade to the governing Croatian Democratic Community (HDZ), he especially
blasted the Open Society Institute, which supports independent media like
the _Feral Tribune_ and some NGOs; prominent critics like Ivo Banac, Chris
Cviic, Slavko Goldstein, and Vlado Gotovac; and the BBC, VOA, and Radio
101,
as well as the only independent daily, _Novi List_. Tudjman warned that
these enemies "have spread their tentacles throughout our society." --
Patrick Moore

[10] . . . AND DECORATES INDICTED WAR CRIMINAL.

The next day, Tudjman presented a number of military medals, including one
to Gen. Tihomir Blaskic for his role in retaking the Knin region in 1995,
Reuters said. Blaskic's wife accepted the award, since he is voluntarily
appearing before the Hague-based war crimes tribunal on charges of having
committed atrocities against Muslims. Tudjman's statement and presentation
of the medal are classic examples of his insensitivity to foreign and
domestic public opinion, which has long earned him the nickname "Mr. Own-
goal." They also reflect his understanding of democracy and the uneasiness
of the regime amid recent unrest and reports that Tudjman has cancer. --
Patrick Moore

[11] DONORS PLEDGE OVER $30 MILLION FOR EASTERN SLAVONIA.

The UN said on 6 December that international donors have pledged over $30
million to help rebuild the last Serb-held part of Croatia, Eastern
Slavonia, international and local media reported. Organizers of the
donors'
conference in Zagreb originally hoped to raise $1.2 billion. But Derek
Boothby, deputy to Jacques Klein, head of the UN Transitional
Administration for Eastern Slavonia, said the money promised was a "very
good start," according to AFP. Boothby said that foreign money would
encourage the Serbs to stay and the Croats to return. Meanwhile, top local
Serb representative Vojislav Stanimirovic said the Serbs want to have
their
own county in Croatia, where they would be a majority, Novi List reported
on 7 December. Under Croatian law, the region would be split into two
counties. Stanimirovic called for a referendum on the region's
administrative status, AFP reported on 6 December. -- Daria Sito Sucic

[12] SLOVENES REJECT ELECTORAL REFORM.

Preliminary returns from a nationwide ballot held in Slovenia on 8
December
show the vote was met with apathy and tacit support for the status quo,
STA
reported. According to returns, only an estimated 35% of the electorate
voted and none of the three proposed packages for fundamental changes in
the national voting system received the requisite minimum 50% to become
binding. Final results are expected on 12 December. -- Stan Markotich

[13] ROMANIAN PARTIES SIGN RULING COALITION ACCORD.

On 6 December, the victorious parties in the November general elections
signed a coalition accord aimed at giving parliamentary support to the new
government, Romanian media reported. Leaders of the Democratic Convention
of Romania, the Social Democratic Union, and the Hungarian Democratic
Federation of Romania (UDMR) signed the document in President Emil
Constantinescu's presence. The coalition thus holds a majority 287 of the
parliament's 486 seats. According to Constantinescu, the "solid
parliamentary majority" resulting from the accord will back "a strong
government set up to solve Romania's big problems." UDMR Chairman Bela
Marko described his party's participation in the government as "natural"
in
view of the support it gave to democratic forces. Designated Prime
Minister
Victor Ciorbea will seek parliamentary approval for his cabinet on 10
December. -- Zsolt Mato

[14] DNIESTER MEDIATORS WELCOME LISBON DOCUMENT.

The mediators brokering a settlement in the Dniester conflict welcomed on
6
December the stance of the OSCE Lisbon Summit on the issue, Infotag
reported. At a briefing in Chisinau, the three mediators -- Donald
Johnson,
head of the OSCE Mission to Moldova, and special presidential envoys Yurii
Karlov of Russia and Evgenii Levitsky of Ukraine -- praised the section
devoted to Moldova in the Lisbon document. The document expressed concern
over the lack of progress in implementing the October 1994
Moldovan-Russian
agreement on the withdrawal of Russian troops from eastern Moldova. It
also
reiterated OSCE's commitment to assist in achieving a final solution to
the
dispute. The mediators stressed that the key to settlement lies in
granting
a special status to the Dniester region within a sovereign and independent
Moldova. -- Dan Ionescu

[15] BULGARIAN OPPOSITION LEADER CALLS FOR NATIONAL CONSENSUS.

Union of Democratic Forces (SDS) Chairman Ivan Kostov said on 8 December
that the opposition will support the establishment of a currency board if
an agreement with the ruling Bulgarian Socialist Party for calling early
elections and changing the Bulgarian National Bank's Executive Board can
be
reached, _Pari_ and _Duma_ reported. However, Kostov's proposal must first
receive the backing of the extraordinary SDS National Coordinating Council
meeting on 9 December. The council must also decide on Kostov's other idea
-
- - to turn the SDS into a single party before early elections. Over the
weekend, 3 parties already backed him, while 6 others rejected the idea,
albeit "ambiguously." -- Maria Koinova

[16] MOSQUE IN BULGARIA DAMAGED IN EXPLOSION.

An explosive device went off in the Great Mosque in Kazanlak on 6
December,
causing damage but no injuries, _Duma_ and _Novinar_ reported. Motives and
perpetrators remain unknown. A bomb had been discovered and defused in the
same mosque earlier this year, while mosques in Varna and Shumen were
targets of arsonists in 1996. In other news, the EU said Bulgaria can
restart the controversial reactor No. 1 at the Kozloduy nuclear power
plant
but should close the whole plant down as soon as it finds alternative
forms
of energy, Reuters reported. EU and Bulgarian experts said tests showed
that "the material of the pressure vessel ... allows the [reactor's] safe
operation." -- Stefan Krause
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
This material was reprinted with permission of the Open Media
Research Institute, a nonprofit organization with research offices in
Prague, Czech Republic.
For more information on OMRI publications please write to .
+ - VIOLATION of Privacy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> At 01:49 AM 12/10/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:
> >His [Lippai's] vehemence is inelegant, coarse and degrades the memories of
> those
> >innocents who did suffer under Rakosi. Don't you get it? Give him a gun
> >and the minimal authority necessary and he's the one pulling the trigger
> >on his political opponents. He's just like the guys who ran Rejcsk.
>         Mr. Lippai, in addition to his public outbursts, also likes to write
> private letters. I received the following this morning:
> >After reading a number of your postings, I concluded that you were
> >anti-Hungarian, anti-American communist garbage.
>         Inelegant? Just a bit!
>         Eva Balogh

Dear Eva.
I did not expect this from you. You have apparently violated personal
e-mail messages privacy by publishing excerpts - most likely without his
permission -  that is a basic no no -- even if you are mad at him!
I suggest that you appologize for this unethical behavior.
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.Stowe wrote to I.Lippai:

>Some of those teeming millions helped precipitate the First World War
>through their arrogant insistence on forcing minorities within their
>borders to culturally assimilate. Unfortunately for the rest, the Allies
>undertook a decidely benighted and punitive post-war approach to
>reconstructing Hungary. The rest the Hungarians did to themselves through
>a spectacular series of backing the wrong horse, from Bela Kun to Miklos
>Kallay, domestically and geopolitically. Gee, here's another interesting
>parallel between you and Joe Szalai -- I have also had occasion to remind
>him, as I will now remind you, that actions have consequences. The proper
>question in this context should be: Why do we think we're exempt from the
>rules of cause and effect which govern every other nation's history?

Here we are again! The same old Sam's theory. How many times do I have to
ask the same questions, i.e so what the hungarian politicians should have
done to AVOID those consequences (i.e Trianon, German occupation,
Russian occupation)? And how many times yet, Sam will conclude that basically
nothing could have been done to AVOID them, but at least they could have
reached a higher moral level (or something like this). Sam, you cannot see
or do not want to see beyond the details, the main events of the Hungarian
History in this century could not have been changed whatever the hungarians
had done.
First, your approach is not fair. You and your culture has never been in
situations like we have been. Yet you are telling us how to behave in a
loose-loose situation.
Second your approach has a subtle meaning, i.e we got what we desired for.
Guilty nation. Collective guilt.
Third, your approach implies a very dangereous idea. I.e whathever happens
with someone or with a group of people is the DIRECT consquence of THEIR acts.
So, you and your group cannot be responsible for those consequences and also
any help from your part is a simple favour for what the others have to be
greatful.

J.Zs
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:11 PM 12/10/96 +0100, George Jalsovszky wrote:

>I also rembember it well, even the tune of it. Tried to recall (some
>of the lines may be missing - including that quoted by Eve) and give a rough
>English (?) translation:
>
>Elnyomas, szolgasors.
>= Servitude, opression.
>Ez volt a rend: ezer evig
>= This was the law: for thousand years
>senyvedt a nep legjobb ereje,
>= languished the best forces of people
>dologtalane volt az orszag.
>= our land was owned by fat idlers.
>
>Mig a nep hordta a terheket,
>= While the people took most of the pain,
>a multba nezo csupa sebet lat.
>= the historian can see only wounds.
>Csak vert, jajt, panaszkonnyeket,
>= Just blood, woe and tears of lament
>munkara harcra hiv ma minket
>= today it calls for work and fighting
>eletunknek uj ertelmet ad.
>= and it gives a new meaning to life.
>
>Milliok ajka zengi vigan,
>= Million lips sing it cheerfully:
>hogy eljen a koztarsasag,
>= Republic, Republic live long,
>milliok ajka zengi vigan,
>= million lips sing it cheerfully:
>hogy eljen a koztarsasag!
>= Republic, Republic live long!

        I admire your and Charlie Vamossy's memory. I have to admit that I
have lousy memory when it comes learning things verbatim. Although as a high
school student I recited poetry quite well, it was an awful struggle for me
to memorize the poems.

>I remember two remarkable points of the song. One is lines 2-3, which, due
>to the tune had to be sung as "ez-volt-a-rend ezere-vigsenyvedtanep
>legjobbereje".
>
>The other remarkable point is "csak vert, jajt, panaszkonnyeket", which we
>sung (invariably) as "csak vert, jajt, PANASZKONYVEKET", where "panaszkonyv"
>means book of complaints - an important requisite of socialist trade (shops,
>restaurants).

        Oh, yes, the "panaszkonyvek," the ones nobody dared to write
anything into!

        I quoted Istvan Lippai:

>>>I asked God
>>>(Magyarok Istenet) to help me not to bring shame to my people when I arrived
>>>in the United States 40 years ago.
>>
        And then said:

>Until now I have thought that God is universal.

        So, George asks me:

>Eva, what about "A magyarok istenere eskuszunk, eskuszunk...???

        If you read Mr. Lippai's text carefully and then add his other
relevant utterances about his religiosity I think his emphasis is not on our
universal God but the God of the "Hungarians." Sure, Petofi used this line
in 1848 but that was in 1848 and Petofi was a romantic nationalist and,
something which we often forget, a very young man, practically a child. A
hot-headed child at that.

        Yes, the poem inspired us over the ages, the last time in 1956. I
have a copy of a foto which originally appeared in 168 ora two years ago
where one can see the base of the Petofi statue at which Sinkovics, the
actor, recited this poem and around which hundreds of ELTE students, some
quite recognizable, including me, stand listening to this poem and repeating
the refrain. No question it was inspiring. But our attention wasn't focused
on the "God of the Hungarians," but on "Esku:szu:nk, esku:szu:nk, rabok
tova'bb nem leszu:nk." "We swear, we swear we no longer be slaves." That is
what inspired us; that was what we wanted to achieve: freedom. Not some kind
of particular God of Hungarians invented by romantic nationalism.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Why the secrecy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Amos:
I suppose that the issue is also whther it is constitutional for some
govt bozo to arbitrarily HIDE the facts (so one can have definite proof
of theoir guilt)?
+ - Re: poetry title (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks very much for that helpful info.  Yes, Thy and Thou fit the time.

Norma




On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 02:28 AM 12/10/96 -0800, Norma wrote:
>
> >That is, I'm sorry to have to admit that I want
> >to be reassured that it is not one of Balassi's love poems but instead
> >one of his religious ones. For those who don't know, in the 16/17th
> >centuries of the Renaissance and Baroque periods the two kinds of poetry
> >were much closer than we moderns would expect.
> >
> >
> >Felseges uristen!  es kemeny ostorod,
> >Kivel tagaimat
> >Buneimert nekem igen ostorozod
>
>         You can be assured that it is a religious poem and therefore in the
> first line (title) instead of "you," or "You," maybe you should use "Thy."
>
> "Heavenly Father! and Thy harsh whip,
> With which Thy severely flog my limbs for my sins"
>
>         Not very elegant but this is the best I can do. Perhaps Gabor
> Fencsik can be more eloquent.
>
>         By the way, you are right. Balassi was a great poet and it is too
> bad that his poems are not available even in inferior translations.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos,

You do not need to explain anything to this man.  He would condemn you (born
in 1966) for some mistakes that some Hungarian leaders may have long before
you were born.

If anything, Hungarians stand out for their acceptance of and compassion for
others.  We could never treat our adversaries with the brutality that our
people had to endure.

I have lived with Americans for years.  The Americans that know about us, like
us.  I and about 40 thousand Hungarians were treated with incredible
hospitality when we came here.  It is still a good country to live in.  We are
having a wonderful sunny day in Colorado.  There is a local saying "It is a
privilege to live in Colorado".  Hope you come and visit us, Janos.

This Stowe guy, tries to put us down and make us feel ashamed of our heritage.
 I am proud of my heritage, especially young Hungarians like you.

He does not speak for the Americans I know and respect. .  He is nobody.

Istvan
----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Janos Zsargo
Sent:  Tuesday, December 10, 1996 12:28 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

S.Stowe wrote to I.Lippai:

>Some of those teeming millions helped precipitate the First World War
>through their arrogant insistence on forcing minorities within their
>borders to culturally assimilate. Unfortunately for the rest, the Allies
>undertook a decidely benighted and punitive post-war approach to
>reconstructing Hungary. The rest the Hungarians did to themselves through
>a spectacular series of backing the wrong horse, from Bela Kun to Miklos
>Kallay, domestically and geopolitically. Gee, here's another interesting
>parallel between you and Joe Szalai -- I have also had occasion to remind
>him, as I will now remind you, that actions have consequences. The proper
>question in this context should be: Why do we think we're exempt from the
>rules of cause and effect which govern every other nation's history?

Here we are again! The same old Sam's theory. How many times do I have to
ask the same questions, i.e so what the hungarian politicians should have
done to AVOID those consequences (i.e Trianon, German occupation,
Russian occupation)? And how many times yet, Sam will conclude that basically
nothing could have been done to AVOID them, but at least they could have
reached a higher moral level (or something like this). Sam, you cannot see
or do not want to see beyond the details, the main events of the Hungarian
History in this century could not have been changed whatever the hungarians
had done.
First, your approach is not fair. You and your culture has never been in
situations like we have been. Yet you are telling us how to behave in a
loose-loose situation.
Second your approach has a subtle meaning, i.e we got what we desired for.
Guilty nation. Collective guilt.
Third, your approach implies a very dangereous idea. I.e whathever happens
with someone or with a group of people is the DIRECT consquence of THEIR acts.
So, you and your group cannot be responsible for those consequences and also
any help from your part is a simple favour for what the others have to be
greatful.

J.Zs
+ - Re: VIOLATION of Privacy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:22 PM 12/10/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>I did not expect this from you. You have apparently violated personal
>e-mail messages privacy by publishing excerpts - most likely without his
>permission -  that is a basic no no -- even if you are mad at him!
>I suggest that you appologize for this unethical behavior.

        Apology? You must be kidding.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:36:22 UT
>
>Mr. Stowe,
>
>From my very first day on, I have been treated well by Americans (my
fellow
>Americans since 1963).  I was told many times of Hungarians, who earned
the
>respect of Americans because of their hard work, integrity and loyalty.
>
>I do not know what rock you  have crawled out from under.  You are not
>anything like the Americans I know and respect.  Never-never did any of
my
>fellow Americans tell me anything like dirty anti-Hungarian garbage you
are
>peddling here.

Because most Americans, unless they are Hungarian descent, know nothing
about Hungary. Few of my fellow countrymen, I'm afraid, bother to learn
much about Hungary. That's their loss. Most Americans aren't in any
position to offer up an informed opinion about Hungarian history and
politics. Strange how I seem to be the first non-Magyar whom you've run
across in 36 years (down from the four decades you were claiming in
earlier posts) who knew anything about Hungary. Unfortunately for your
ego, I, like the many Hungarians and Hungarian-Americans who frequent this
list, know the difference between chicken salad and chicken droppings when
it comes to these issues. Cluck like a chicken for me just once.


>
>You claim to have "a deep love and admiration for Hungary and the
Hungarian
>people", yet you continue to bring up the rare negative examples in our
>history that most Hungarians did not have anything to do with, yet paid
>dearly
>for it.  How much more pain and suffering my people should endure to
satisfy
>the likes of you?

The examples, unfortunately, are not rare. Reality avoidance seems to be a
constant theme of Hungarian politics since 1848. You, no doubt, worship
the ground that Lajos Kossuth walked on. But look at what Ferenc Deak
managed to accomplish without the bloodshed that attended Kossuth's war of
independence. Hungary needs more patriots like Deak (and Batthyany, for
that matter) and less of the bluster and extremism that Kossuth made so
popular as a style of political discourse.

The Hungarian people probably won't suffer as much in the future as they
have during this century. That's partly the result of a vastly improved
geopolitical situation in their neck of the woods. But I also think that
they've learned to weigh the actions of would-be leaders like you against
their words. That judicious approach to sorting out political claims means
you and the rest of your ultranationalist buddies will spend most of your
waking hours pitching peanuts to the pigeons along the Korszo and babbling
about how the rest of the world seems to have gone crazy except for
yourselves.

>
>The United States president you were feebly trying to quote is Harry S.
>Truman.  The 33rd president of the United States.  He was the first
United
>States president who stood up to the Soviets to defend the free world.  I
am
>proud to be a United States citizen and our role in crushing the Soviet
>empire.  It is because of the courage of this great nation that there are
no
>more Soviet troops in Hungary.  I do not dwell on the negatives in
American
>history.  I leave it up to those who envy and resent the United States.

I, being born here and reared to take my civic responsibilities seriously,
am willing to take the time to look carefully and soberly at American
history. Your snotty passage above will no doubt delight many on this list
who have read the attacks on me in the past from Szalai, Durant, et. al.
about being a staunch defender of the U.S. By the way, the U.S. didn't
crush the Soviet empire. It imploded of its own accord. Apparently you
don't dwell on American history period, regardless of whether it is
negative or positive.

>
>My right or obligation to speak out on issues concerning Hungary does not
>depend on how long I have been on this list.  You seem to assume that
being
>on
>the list for one year gives you a right to insult and condemn us.  I am a
>Hungarian and I was a Hungarian long before this list.  I believe that my
>fellow Hungarians (no matter how much they object to my style) do not
>question
>my right to join in a discussion concerning our people.

Nobody, myself included, has questioned your right to participate in the
discussion on this list. I've questioned your motives for doing so. I
still think you're trying to attract attention to yourself. I repeat --
you must be a very lonely man.

>
>I was raised in "Angyalfold".  My Hungarian brothers and sisters know
that
>they will not get a polite conversation from an Angyalfold-i over issues
that
>I feel strongly about.  I believe that they will accept me for who I am.

Yes, Angyalfoldi are rough and tough working class folks. But this isn't
about polite conversation. It's about ideas, repellent ideas which many
Hungarians, many Angyalfoldi among them, realize have caused their nation
grievous harm during the past few decades. I do have a personal question
for you, though. If you're such a Magyar superpatriot, why are you still
here in the States? Seems to me like you'd want to at least spend some
time in the old country.

>
>You do not have a clue.  Do you Mr. Stowe?

This isn't Jeopardy, Lippai ur, and you aren't Alex Trebek. Like to buy a
vowel?
Sam Stowe
>
>Lippai Istvan



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>From:  Joe Szalai >
>Date:  Tue, 10 Dec 1996 07:26:33 -0500
>
>At 12:29 PM 12/9/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:
>
><snip>
>>That would require reposting nearly everything you've ever posted on
here.
>>I don't know that readers would have the patience to wade through all
>>that. Your world view shows an almost fanatical and exclusive focus on
the
>>radical goal of equivalent outcomes for every member of society. You
waste
>>no opportunity in speaking out against what you perceive as injustice.
Yet
>>you seem unable or unwilling to grasp the simple fact that people's
>>outcomes in life can be enhanced or limited by factors beyond the scope
of
>>government -- personal choices, intelligence, education, economic
>>opportunity or the lack thereof and pure dumb luck, among others. For
all
>>your professed love of your fellow man and woman, you don't seem to
>>understand them very well.
>>Sam Stowe
>
>Thank you for this less than brilliant, anti-democratic, mini-thesis.
>
>Joe Szalai

I knew you wouldn't be able to uphold your end of the debate on this one.
I need to lighten up on you.
Sam Stowe

"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Vambery Arminius (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:36 PM 12/9/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier, in Re: The English Patient,
asked:

<snip>
>Did Vambery ever travel to England?

Yes, he did.  Vambery dedicated "The Coming Struggle for India, Being an
Account of the Encroachments of Russia in Central Asia, and of the
Difficulties Sure to Arise Therefrom to England", published in 1885, to
Russell Shaw, Esq.  In the dedication, dated July 2, 1885, Buda Pesth
University, Vambery wrote:

  My Dear Mr. Shaw,

You are a Liberal in your political views; I found you liberal in the
hospitality you have bestowed on me; and I hope you will be liberal in
judging these pages, which I dedicate to you.

In other countries an author would have hardly ventured to dedicate to his
friend of Liberal persuasion a book containing a strong criticism upon the
policy of the Liberal party.  But in England fair play is fully admitted in
political opinions, even if they come from a foreigner.  This is a fact, of
which I have had ample opportunity to convince myself during my late
lecturing tour in your country; and it is the substance of the various
addresses which I then delivered, that I offer now to the public in the
present book form.

                     Believe me,
                        Dear Mr. Shaw,
                          Yours sincerely,
                                  A. VAMBERY

Other books by Vambery include:
"Sketches of Central Asia"
"Hungary in Ancient Mediaeval, and Modern Times" co-authored with Louis Heilpri
n
"Etymologisches Worterbuch der turko-tatarischen Sprachen"

Hope this helps.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr. Stowe,

How long do you think the Hungarians on this list will put up with your
arrogant and conceited put downs.

You are not as smart as you first appeared to be.  You cannot count anything
past the fingers on your hands and feet.  Here it is:

1. I came to the United States in 1957.  That is 40 years in America.
2.      I became a United States citizen in 1963.  That is 36 years as a United
States citizen.

If this is any of your business.

I will challenge unfounded lies and accusations against Hungary.  I am
especially concerned about how your lies may affect our younger people.
Knowing about our history does not mean that you have any compassion for us.
You seem to know all the negative (and sometimes very sad) events in our
history.

A former communist economist (recently converted to the free enterprise
system) came to UC Boulder two years ago.  He listed the major reasons for the
collapse of the Soviet empire:

1.      The Soviet economy got ruined by the arms race with the United States.

2.  The war in Vietnam placed a very heavy economic burden on the Soviet
economy.

He babbled some other reasons that I can no longer recall.

It was the hard work of American taxpayers and the servicemen in Vietnam that
crushed the "Evil Empire".

Since you presume to question my background, I have some questions for you:

1.      Did you ever serve in the United States armed forces?

2.      If you served, WHEN and WHAT branch of service?

3.      If not WHY NOT?

Lippai Istvan




----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Sam Stowe
Sent:  Tuesday, December 10, 1996 1:43 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:36:22 UT
>
>Mr. Stowe,
>
>From my very first day on, I have been treated well by Americans (my
fellow
>Americans since 1963).  I was told many times of Hungarians, who earned
the
>respect of Americans because of their hard work, integrity and loyalty.
>
>I do not know what rock you  have crawled out from under.  You are not
>anything like the Americans I know and respect.  Never-never did any of
my
>fellow Americans tell me anything like dirty anti-Hungarian garbage you
are
>peddling here.

Because most Americans, unless they are Hungarian descent, know nothing
about Hungary. Few of my fellow countrymen, I'm afraid, bother to learn
much about Hungary. That's their loss. Most Americans aren't in any
position to offer up an informed opinion about Hungarian history and
politics. Strange how I seem to be the first non-Magyar whom you've run
across in 36 years (down from the four decades you were claiming in
earlier posts) who knew anything about Hungary. Unfortunately for your
ego, I, like the many Hungarians and Hungarian-Americans who frequent this
list, know the difference between chicken salad and chicken droppings when
it comes to these issues. Cluck like a chicken for me just once.


>
>You claim to have "a deep love and admiration for Hungary and the
Hungarian
>people", yet you continue to bring up the rare negative examples in our
>history that most Hungarians did not have anything to do with, yet paid
>dearly
>for it.  How much more pain and suffering my people should endure to
satisfy
>the likes of you?

The examples, unfortunately, are not rare. Reality avoidance seems to be a
constant theme of Hungarian politics since 1848. You, no doubt, worship
the ground that Lajos Kossuth walked on. But look at what Ferenc Deak
managed to accomplish without the bloodshed that attended Kossuth's war of
independence. Hungary needs more patriots like Deak (and Batthyany, for
that matter) and less of the bluster and extremism that Kossuth made so
popular as a style of political discourse.

The Hungarian people probably won't suffer as much in the future as they
have during this century. That's partly the result of a vastly improved
geopolitical situation in their neck of the woods. But I also think that
they've learned to weigh the actions of would-be leaders like you against
their words. That judicious approach to sorting out political claims means
you and the rest of your ultranationalist buddies will spend most of your
waking hours pitching peanuts to the pigeons along the Korszo and babbling
about how the rest of the world seems to have gone crazy except for
yourselves.

>
>The United States president you were feebly trying to quote is Harry S.
>Truman.  The 33rd president of the United States.  He was the first
United
>States president who stood up to the Soviets to defend the free world.  I
am
>proud to be a United States citizen and our role in crushing the Soviet
>empire.  It is because of the courage of this great nation that there are
no
>more Soviet troops in Hungary.  I do not dwell on the negatives in
American
>history.  I leave it up to those who envy and resent the United States.

I, being born here and reared to take my civic responsibilities seriously,
am willing to take the time to look carefully and soberly at American
history. Your snotty passage above will no doubt delight many on this list
who have read the attacks on me in the past from Szalai, Durant, et. al.
about being a staunch defender of the U.S. By the way, the U.S. didn't
crush the Soviet empire. It imploded of its own accord. Apparently you
don't dwell on American history period, regardless of whether it is
negative or positive.

>
>My right or obligation to speak out on issues concerning Hungary does not
>depend on how long I have been on this list.  You seem to assume that
being
>on
>the list for one year gives you a right to insult and condemn us.  I am a
>Hungarian and I was a Hungarian long before this list.  I believe that my
>fellow Hungarians (no matter how much they object to my style) do not
>question
>my right to join in a discussion concerning our people.

Nobody, myself included, has questioned your right to participate in the
discussion on this list. I've questioned your motives for doing so. I
still think you're trying to attract attention to yourself. I repeat --
you must be a very lonely man.

>
>I was raised in "Angyalfold".  My Hungarian brothers and sisters know
that
>they will not get a polite conversation from an Angyalfold-i over issues
that
>I feel strongly about.  I believe that they will accept me for who I am.

Yes, Angyalfoldi are rough and tough working class folks. But this isn't
about polite conversation. It's about ideas, repellent ideas which many
Hungarians, many Angyalfoldi among them, realize have caused their nation
grievous harm during the past few decades. I do have a personal question
for you, though. If you're such a Magyar superpatriot, why are you still
here in the States? Seems to me like you'd want to at least spend some
time in the old country.

>
>You do not have a clue.  Do you Mr. Stowe?

This isn't Jeopardy, Lippai ur, and you aren't Alex Trebek. Like to buy a
vowel?
Sam Stowe
>
>Lippai Istvan



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - test (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

test
+ - Student democrats (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To those of you still laboring under any illusions about the "student
democracy" movement in Serbia, I commend to your attention a front page
story by Chris Hedges in the Dec. 10 edition of the New York Times. The
story, "Fierce Serb Nationalism Pervades Student Foes of Belgrade Leader"
is available on the Times webserver.
Sam Stowe

"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: two URL-s: FIDESz and the Hungarian Bishop's Confer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:58 PM 12/10/96 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
>> If all goes well, I will post the first installment of my
>> critique tonight. I will also send it to www.fidesz.hu although my
>> experience with the different parties' webpages that they don't read--or at
>> least they don't answer--their e-mail.
>>
>>         Eva Balogh
>
>I have good news for you :-). When I discovered www.fidesz.hu, I wrote
>an E-mail and received an answer in 36 hours. I can only hope that
>they will keep their good habits.

I'm glad to see that in Hungary, "form", is taking precedence over
"substance".  Just like here!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Hungarian proverb (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Tony) wrote:
>In >  (jeff
>nunner) writes:
>>
>>Hey... my friend's grandmother once taught me a Hungarian (Magyar,
>even?)
>>saying which was the Anglo-equivalent of "the boy who cried wolf".  In
>>English, it was loosely translated as "The girl got up one morning and
>>didn't want to go to school, so she said her toe hurt, but her mother
>>found out and made her go anyway."  And it's pronounced: (my ASCII IPA
>>isn't perfect. Please be gentle with flames...)
>>
>>      [IS kilaba fail lalaba xUzai nEmi nEmfai SEmi]
>>
>>If anyone could help me and tell me how to spell it in Hungarian and a
>
>>more exact English-translation, I would really appreciate it.  Thanks!
>

Lassuk csak! Iskola'ba fel a lala'ba hazamenni nem fa'j semmi (?)
                       ^^^ (I think this "fel" or "fail" as is originally
typed should be "faj")



What the??? I think the translation would roughly fall along the lines of
"One hurts its leg going to school, one doesn't hurt anything by going
home" Not quite "a boy who cried wolf" but maybe my own translation is
screwed up.
>
>I think you have parts of the pronunciation slightly wrong.   The
>Hungarian for "to school" is "iskolaba".   (I believe the "-ba" ending
>means "to").

"-ba"/"-be" suffixes roughly corresponds to "into" or "to" prepositions.
"-ra"/"-re" or "-nak"/"-nek" roughly corresponds to "to" or "for"
prepositions.
>
>So the first word would be "Iskolaba", one word.  Now my Hungarian
>isn't very good; the only way I know this is my contact with a
>long-time ex-girlfriend who is Hungarian, with her family, and from our
>travels in Hungary.   The last word, "semi" is pronounced "SHEM-mi" and
>means "nothing".   I really doubt the whole English sentence you wrote
>above could be translated into that short a phrase in Hungarian.
>Although Hungarian is a (somewhat?) agglutinative language (like
>Turkish), it generally uses no fewer words to express thoughts than
>most other European languages.   I realize Hungarian is not rooted in
>European languages, that its roots are in north Asia (specifically
>western Siberia, which is now part of Russia).   But actually, I found
>Hungarian quite easy to learn, much easier than, say, Russian, which is
>supposedly closer to most other languages of Europe (being of the
>Indo-European family).  The pronunciation of Hungarian is very
>straightforward; the diacritics and spelling rules are a bit peculiar,
>but very consistant.  Hungarian doesn't have many unpronounceable
>sounds, like Russian or Czech.   You have to get used to accenting the
>first syllable on EVERY word in Hungarian, no matter how long the word
>is.   For instance, the name of the country is "Magyarorszag", accented
>on the "MA".   There are even words much longer, but still accented on
>that first syllable.   To me, Hungarian was so easy to pick up that I
>would often string together my own sentences using vocabulary I had
>picked up, and conjugating my own verbs ad hoc according to the rules I
>had absorbed -- and actually be UNDERSTOOD by the Hungarians around me!
>
>Another amazing thing I have observed:  the striking similarity in
>sound between Hungarian and Turkish, to those who (like myself) speak
>neither language.   Somewhere, a long time ago, I may have read that
>Hungarian was somehow related to Turkish; but I cannot find such
>references now -- it seems the only other modern language of any
>importance related to Hungarian is Finnish.   Nevertheless, I have
>Turkish neighbors and I am amazed at the similarity of the "sound" of
>Hungarian and Turkish!
>
>The grammatical rules are pretty consistent.   Interestingly, though
>Hungarian is an Asiatic (Finno-Ugric) language, its grammatical rules
>seem to roughly parallel those of Western, Indo-European languages.
>For instance, there is a consistent infinitive verb form, marked by the
>suffix "-ni" in most cases.   You conjugate verbs much like you do,
>say, in the Romance languages:  I want to eat is "En akkarak enni" --
>"en" is "I", akkarak is the first person singular of the verb "to
>want", the "-ak" ending denoting the proper conjugated form.   The verb
>"to eat" appears in its infinitive form, immediately after the verb "I
>want".   This is EXACTLY like French, Spanish, and Italian!   To me,
>that's an amazing coincidence, given that Hungarian isn't even remotely
>related to those languages.

Originally, Magyar was more of a SOV language however, its word order is
very free and only one golden rule is followed in word order, emphasis.

Ex. E'n akarok enni = I want to eat ("I" and only "I" - no one else)

Ja'nos egy haza't ke'rek = John is looking for a HOUSE (and nothing else)

Ja'nos ke'rek egy haza't = JOHN is looking for a house (and nobody else)

Ke'rek egy haza't = I'm LOOKING for a house (I'm looking for a house
only - not doing anything else with it like painting or wrecking it.)

>I could go on with my observations about Hungarian....does anyone out
>there have an explanation for these seeming coincidences?   Can anyone
>provide other examples of striking similarities between Hungarian and
>Indo-European languages?
>
>Tony

Latin: uxor (wife)
Magyar: asszony (madam)

English: copy
Magyar: ke'p (picture, portrait)

English: sister / German: Schwester / French: soeur / Latin: soror
Magyar: szu"z (virgin)

English: night / German: Nacht / French: nuit / Latin: nox
Magyar: nyugat (west - where the sun sets giving way to NIGHT)

English: sigh
Magyar: sohajtozik

English: milk / German: milch
Magyar: mell (breast)

English: water / German: Wasser / Russian: vod
Magyar: vi'z

English: seven / German: Sieben / French: sept / Greek: hepta
Magyar: he't

English: ten / Latin: deci / French: dix
Magyar: ti'z

Remember the centum/saetum theory of the I-E languages??? (centum =
saetum = "hundred")
Magyar: sza'z

English: berry
Magyar: eper (strawberry - this match is very questionable)

Greek: Pyros (fire - connatation of fire)
Magyar: piros (red)

French: four (oven)
Magyar: forro' (burning)

Russian: chetirye (four)
Magyar: csu:to:rto:k (Thursday - fourth day of the week)

Greek: penta (five)
Magyar: pe'ntek (Friday - fifth day of the week)

English: fair
Magyar: fehe'r (white)

French: fils (son)
Magyar: fiu' (boy)

Latin: qui (who) / French: qui (who)
Magyar: ki (who)

French: tu (you - personal pronoun)
Magyar: te (you - 2nd person pronoun)

English: me, I (1st personal pronoun)
Magyar: "-m" suffix (this "-m" suffix is used in many cases - ex.
"enni" = to eat "esz-em" = I eat. The "-m" suffix is also used to denote
possession by the first person ex. "ko:nyv" = book "a ko:nyv-em = my
book.)

English: we
Magyar: mi

English: see
Magyar: szem (eye)

Latin: sem (seed - English derivative = semen)
Magyar: szem (seed - not "eye" in this context)

English: ewe
Magyar: juh (goat, lamb - I think this match is a fluke)

English: suck
Magyar: szi'v (heart, it sucks in)

English: volcano / Latin: Vulcan (God of Fire)
Magyar: meleg (hot - where the "m" sound is related to the "v" sound)

Hindu: ektu (one)
Magyar: egy (pronounced e-dy)

Farsi (Iranian): hezar (thousand)
Magyar: ezer (thousand)

I'm not one to say that the ancient Magyars borrowed or derived a lot of
their words from I-E languages (in fact I think its the other way
around!) but these correspondences are interesting and a few of
Greenburg's Norstratic advocates would find these words useful in
boosting a Norstratic language family (Indo-European, Turanian and the
Paleo-Siberian language families as one large superfamily). I personally
believe that the ultimate root of Magyar is Sumerian and that several
ethno-linguistic families including Indo-European and Turanian recieved
strong influence from the Sumerians during History. However, based on my
readings and understanding of Magyar history and ancient history, I
believe that the modern Hungarians are a Sumerian-related people if not
direct descendants of them. I am aware that I am being laughed at but I
genuinely believe this to be true and I'm not forcing anyone to believe
me...

Cheers,

Peter Chong
+ - Re: VIOLATION of Privacy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
<SNIP>
>         Apology? You must be kidding.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
NO I am not. How would you feel if someone sent your private mail to the
public forum? Regardless of how you feel about him personally, the issue
is that you violated a basic trust and understanding that goes along with
private mail.
Peter
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh > wrote on Mon Dec  9 12:27:05 EST 1996:

>                 The communist leadership objected to the name of God
>being mentioned in the anthem. Sometime in 1949-50 they came up with an
>atrocious piece of music called "The Song of the Republic" which was
>supposed to replace the national anthem. It never did.
>
>        Although I bet that only very few people remember that "Song of the
>Republic" I still remember it quite well, mostly because of a line which
>went something like that: "S hult a po'r e's hult a gyereke." [English: And
>the peasant fell and fell his child.] However, the word "po'r" is an archaic
>version of the modern word "paraszt," and most of us, thirteen-year-olds,
>weren't familiar with it. However, we knew the word "por" very well, meaning
>"dust." It also made sense the "the dust fell." So, this is how we sang it:
>S hult a por e's hult a gyereke!
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
I feel I also rembember it well, even the tune of it. Tried to recall (some
of the lines may be missing - including that quoted by Eve) and give a rough
English (?) translation:

Elnyomas, szolgasors.
= Servitude, opression.
Ez volt a rend: ezer evig
= This was the law: for thousand years
senyvedt a nep legjobb ereje,
= languished the best forces of people
dologtalane volt az orszag.
= our land was owned by fat idlers.

Mig a nep hordta a terheket,
= While the people took most of the pain,
a multba nezo csupa sebet lat.
= the historian can see only wounds.
Csak vert, jajt, panaszkonnyeket,
= Just blood, woe and tears of lament
munkara harcra hiv ma minket
= today it calls for work and fighting
eletunknek uj ertelmet ad.
= and it gives a new meaning to life.

Milliok ajka zengi vigan,
= Million lips sing it cheerfully:
hogy eljen a koztarsasag,
= Republic, Republic live long,
milliok ajka zengi vigan,
= million lips sing it cheerfully:
hogy eljen a koztarsasag!
= Republic, Republic live long!

I remember two remarkable points of the song. One is lines 2-3, which, due
to the tune had to be sung as "ez-volt-a-rend ezere-vigsenyvedtanep
legjobbereje".

The other remarkable point is "csak vert, jajt, panaszkonnyeket", which we
sung (invariably) as "csak vert, jajt, PANASZKONYVEKET", where "panaszkonyv"
means book of complaints - an important requisite of socialist trade (shops,
restaurants).

Still from E.S. Balogh, quoting
>Istvan Lippai:
>
>>I asked God
>>(Magyarok Istenet) to help me not to bring shame to my people when I arrived
>>in the United States 40 years ago.
>
>        Until now I have thought that God is universal.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Eva, what about "A magyarok istenere eskuszunk, eskuszunk...???

George Jalsovszky
+ - two URL-s: FIDESz and the Hungarian Bishop's Conference (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Hungary list,

as there was a rather lengthy discussion concerning FIDESz on this
list some weeks ago probably some of you, who can read Hungarian, will
be interested in the material which was discussed last Saturday in a
Budapest conference jointly organized by FIDESz and the Hungarian
Bishop's Conference. The speakers were among others Endre Gyulay, the
archbishop of Szeged-Csanad (Southern Hungary) and Viktor Orban,
president of FIDESz. There are two underlying documents, both of them
can be found on the Web.

The document produced by FIDESz has the title

"Polgari Magyarorszagert" ("For a civil Hungary"), URL:

http://www.fidesz.hu/magunk2.html

(As I have written in a former letter, FIDESz has a homepage.)

The document produced by the Hungarian Bishop's Conference has the
title

"Igazsagosabb es testveriesebb vilagot!" ("For a more just and
fraternal world"), URL:

http://www.theol.u-szeged.hu/korlevel/

Best regards
Magda Zimanyi

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-395-9151
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-395-9242
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: two URL-s: FIDESz and the Hungarian Bishop's Confer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> If all goes well, I will post the first installment of my
> critique tonight. I will also send it to www.fidesz.hu although my
> experience with the different parties' webpages that they don't read--or at
> least they don't answer--their e-mail.
>
>         Eva Balogh

I have good news for you :-). When I discovered www.fidesz.hu, I wrote
an E-mail and received an answer in 36 hours. I can only hope that
they will keep their good habits.

Regards
Magda Zimanyi

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
   !!!!!!      Phone number after 7 December: +36-1-395-9151
   !!!!!!      FAX number   after 7 December: +36-1-395-9242
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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