Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 770
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-08-26
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  112 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
3 Magyarorszagi newsgroup-ok? (Newsgroups in Hungary) (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: A Hungarian Celebration (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: About dogs (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Sophistry (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Sophistry (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  70 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Magyarorszagi newsgroup-ok? (Newsgroups in Hungary) (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  322 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Sophistry (mind)  96 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
45 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
47 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
48 Collective Rights (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
49 Hungarian email pointer (Version: 0.90, Last-modified: (mind)  96 sor     (cikkei)
50 Re: Sophistry (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
51 Re: About dogs. (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

*********************************************************************
*                       ***WARNING!***                              *
*                                                                   *
*         Yet another meaningless piece of drivel from              *
*         the keyboard of Tibor Benke.  You may wish to             *
*                                                                   *
*                      ***DELETE NOW***                             *
*                                                                   *
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Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 10:01 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>>My cousin just arrived back from Hungary on a visit.
>>He said that while he enjoyed his trip, things were
>>very expensive there. He cannot understand how people
>>earning a living (or trying to) can survive.
>
>>What is the Hungarian government doing about this?? Nothing!
>>Instead of making it easier for Hungarians to live and eat and
>>travel, one needs not two jobs but three! It is high time for the
>>government of Hungary to wake up and slash those prices.
>
>
>        Golly, Peter, you sound as if you have never left existing
>socialism. Thank God the Hungarian government is no longer responsible for
>setting prices or slashing them.
>
>        Eva Balogh

And I bet the folks in the government, whether they be MSZP or SZDSZ thank
whatever God or Gods they may have that they aren't responsible.  (If there
is some Deity, I wonder if She/He will agree in the End?)  At any rate, if
it should come to a revolution, rebbellion, freedomfight,
counter-revolution  or whatever it might be called, no one will know whom
to shoot at.

As that great American poet, R. Zimmermann, once said, "Some people rob you
with a fountain pen"  and "The executioner's face is always well hidden".

On another set of disjointed threads, there is a discussion on the relative
merits of G. Lukacs and M. Heidegger.  From the start I had the urge to
enter the fray, but I restrained myself for as long as I could. (As Daniel
Foss, the nemesis of Anthro-L, would say, I demonstrate the strength of my
flea will).  What helped me hold my silence was my lack of confidence that
I knew and understood enough about these two seminal philosophers of the
Twentieth Century.  Before I get to my question I should discribe what
little I think I know and how I came by that knowledge, so if I I am wrong,
I I am sure that those who know better then I I, (and even those who may
not not) will correct me.

I encountered the thoughts of Heidegger in the mid-sixties, when he was
popular, or at least, Existentialism was popular, even in the academic
backwater I had recently entered, Sacramento State College (now, California
State University at Sacramento - CSUS).  Existentialism was hotly discussed
on "Cofee House" nights at the local Newman Centre (has nothing to do with
Alfred E. but is a sort of Catholic campus organization).  Sometimes
enthusiastic visitors from Union Theological Seminary in Berkley (young men
headed for a pastoral career in some liberal Protestant Church - [Oh! where
are they now?]) submitted themselves to challenges from the more
conservative, (mostly Catholic) locals.  I watched these encounters as a
very sophmoric sophmore, not understanding much.  A great deal of the talk
was about moral relativism, which the visitors thought fundamental to
Jesus' teaching, (_vide_: the comparison of the poor old widow's and the
rich man's gifts) and the locals feared would mean the descent of the
Church into Nihilism - whatever that was, but not GOOD fer sure.

What I gathered was central, was the search for something they called,
"authentic being"  or sometimes just, "authenticity".  This was nearly
inpossible to achieve and could only be achieved within relationship they
often described as, "I-Thou".  Sort of like the Grail and the Quest.  While
knowledge and reason was considered neccessary for achieving authenticity
in the I-Thou relationship, eventually what was called "a leap of faith"
had to be made: action taken, responsibility accepted, commitment (a real
popular buzzword) made, with only what a person knew to be neccessarily
incomplete and inadequate information.  This is all I learned about
Existentialism.  (Though I tried to learn more but: some people think MY
writing is obscure!)  And, what is worse, I tried to apply it.  Dispite
appearances, I am probably as authentic as I can ever be.  And so are you,
dear reader!

I didn't come across Lukacs' contributions until I was studiyng the
Sociology of Knowledge as a third year Sociology and Anthropology student
in 1978 or '9.  Then I learned that the  Sociology of Knowlege owes much of
its existence as a subdiscipline to Lukacs' seminal contribution, _History
and Class Consciousness_.  This probably accounts for the low esteem the
discipline enjoys in its homeland.  Also, the Sociology of Knowledge would
probably not exist if not for  George's friendship with one of the founding
fathers of the subdiscipline which much before postmodernism raised the
sociological problems to be encountered in the study of epystemology, Karl
Mannheim.  Because I am obsessed with Mannheim's work, I have had to read
Lukacs and also secondary sources about him  (though, being cognitively
challanged as I am, I wouldn't presume to claim that I understand it even
nearly completely), yet I  I also get the impression that he is responsible
(as is Gramsci) for bringing existentialist notions into Marxism and his
work belongs to the direction some label "volitionalist" within Marxism. I
cannot say much more then this about Lukacs.

Now for my question.  I don't recon, dispite what Eva Balogh may think,
that it can be rationaly decided which philosopher is more important.  What
one may guess, depends on which balcony of the Tower of Babel, (which
academic discipline) one is approaching the question from.  But I wonder
which was more authentic?  It seems to me that Lukacs is ahead in this
respect, and that Heidegger would be closer or even equal to him, if he had
acted on his National Socialist sympathies.  Coments?

Curiously,
Tibor Benke


"And you know something is happening, but you don't know what it is . . ."
Zimmermann again.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Insult by Sam Stowe :

>In article >, A Albu >
>writes:

>The most superior culture is the one which if removed would affect the
>most the Western Civilization.
>
>I doubt is the Hungarian Culture, try Italian.
>
>
>A. Albu

>What, are you nuts? Try Lichtenstein.
>Sam Stowe





I am not nuts. Nuts are the over fifty posters on the subject
arguing for the Hungarian superiority over the French Culture.
So, I had to make the above statement. I had to reduce the matter
to the absurd.

If that's not enough than for an idiot as you  Liechtenstein's
Culture is the most Superior of all.



A.Albu
+ - Magyarorszagi newsgroup-ok? (Newsgroups in Hungary) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello,

Szeretnink kideriteni milyen jelentosebb magyar nyelvu newsgroup-ok
futnak Magyarorszagon, ahhoz hogy megkerhessuk az Internet
szolgaltatonkat hogy tukrozze oket. Nincs veletlenul valakinek egy
listaja? Elore is koszonjuk

We would like to find out what major hungarian newsgroups are currently
active in Hungary so that we can ask our local ISP to carry/mirror them.
Does anyone have a list? Thank you in advance

George

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hawaii Connection Inc. - Honolulu, U. S. A.
Magyar utazasi iroda a Hawaii szigeteken
http://www.hungary.net/hawaii/
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, A Albu >
takes enough time away from his escargot and vinegary vin rouge to write:

>I am not nuts. Nuts are the over fifty posters on the subject
>arguing for the Hungarian superiority over the French Culture.
>So, I had to make the above statement. I had to reduce the matter
>to the absurd.
>
>If that's not enough than for an idiot as you  Liechtenstein's
>Culture is the most Superior of all.
>
>
>
>A.Albu
>
>

Ah, so you're French, eh? Well, that rather tidily explains your complete
lack of a sense of humor and your overweening pomposity. The subject
didn't need your fumbling attempts at absurdity. The very mention of
French culture provides that all on its own a priori. And don't let the
sun set on you in Vaduz, Pilgrim. Now go away and watch a Jerry Lewis
movie or I shall taunt you a second time.
Sam Stowe

"I only use my gun
Whenever kindness fails..."
-- Robert Earl Keen
+ - Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:56 AM 8/24/96 -0400,Ferenc Novak wrote:

>Eva Balogh can be excused for not knowing that in a communist armed force it
>is the political officer, not the nominal commander who is actually in
>charge.

        Eva Balogh doesn't have to be excused for her ignorance. Eva Balogh
knows darn well what the situation was in the Hungarian Red Army in 1919.
And it bears no resemblance to the description below:

>His situation was akin to the Party secretary in civilian
>enterprises (offices, factories, ministries, etc.)  His -- or occasionally,
>her -- job was to make sure that the directives of the Party are carried out
>above all other considerations.  As the representative of the Party, s/he
>could be a total ignoramus regarding the particular enterprise, yet exercised
>absolute control over policies and their execution.  No one serving under
>such a setup would have any illusions about who is the real boss.

        I would like to know where this above comes from. Is it possible
that Frenc Novak takes the role of a party secretary from recent history and
simply equates that role with the "political commissar" of 1919? Most likely.

>So, under these circumstances we can -- as Csaba did -- venture to say that
>Lukacs was (de facto) in charge of the unit in question.  It was obviously
>his decision to set an example by decimating his troops.  Whether or not one
>can agree with the practice, the responsibility clearly lay with Lukacs.

        Amazingly certain of these facts. But where does this knowledge come
from? Certainly not from the documents Csaba Zoltani provided.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:19 PM 8/22/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 05:09 PM 8/22/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, responding to Peter Soltesz, wrote:
>
>>A homosexual doesn't chose his sexual orientation.
>
>Obviously, I agree, but I'd like to ask this.  What if sexual orientation
>is, indeed, a choice?  Should choice be respected?  And should all choices
>be equal under the law?

        Yes, as long as it doesn't hurt others.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: A Hungarian Celebration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:29 AM 8/23/96 -0400,Peter Soltesz provided an article written by Edith
Lauer of the president of the Hungarian-American Coalition. In it I read this:

As early as 902 AD , Hungary/s first parliamentary
>session was conducted on horseback in the town of Pusztaszer;
>an event proudly referred to with the quote, // we had a parliament
>before we had chairs. //

        I bit of an exaggeration!! Those of you who can handle Hungarian I
highly recommend an article written by Miklos Szabo (Harom korfordulo). The
article is available in the Internet edition of Magyar Narancs (#78). I
found it well balanced, thought-provoking, and well written.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:24 PM 8/23/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

ESB:
>Don't try to push that theory because it is so obviously wrong that you just
>make yourself ridiculous for even entertaining it.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>Well Eva, I am so glad that you are an expert...to me by espousing this
>nonsense you look ridiculus.

        One doesn't have to be an expert to recognize the absurdity of your
"choice" theory.

>Do you really believe that being gay/lesbian is a normal thing?

        Obviously it is not "a normal thing," and I never said that it was.
But at the same time it is not question of your famous "choice," like
getting out of bed, or watching television!

>You really believe that likeing something
>makes it right?

        Again, you argue very poorly. Did I talk about right or wrong. No, I
didn't.

>Perhaps those young chiuldren had some bad experiences
>with the opposite sex??  Your argument is just like the following:
>Oh the poor boy killed someone because he saw it on TV (and he does not
>have the basic morals to know better). So please forgive him!! Oh poor boy!
>The fact is that it is wrong and he has to learn to pay for it.

        I simply don't understand what your are driving at here.

        And, by the way, it is time to close this topic. It is becoming
boring and it is obvious that no argument, regarless how reasonable, will
change your mind. There is nothing like topics concerned with homosexuality
or the Jewish question--they keep returning and the enthusiasm with which
such discussions are followed is truly amazing. Just yesterday between early
morning and evening thirty-four postings accumulated in my mailbox. Thanks
to Janos Zsargo, to this sterile topic of homosexuality now we can add the
Jewish contribution to Hungarian culture--also a favorite of certain people.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:16 PM 8/23/96 GMT, Marc Gelgon wrote:

>>>At 05:28 PM 8/18/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, in Re: Toronto, wrote:
>>
>>>[.....]
>>>>difficulties learning a new language. Or, those with a cultural superiority
>>>>complex--see, for example, the French.
>>>
>>
>>I also submit that the arrogance of the French is unmatched on this
>>planet.
>>
>
>
>True that the French MEDIA and the PARISIANS may often be arrogant,
>pretentious, disdainful and ridiculous. Especially the right-wing fellows.
>
>But not all French people are like that.
>
>And some EVEN speak foreign languages, as you can see.

        Sorry, as all generalizations this is not quite right either. Put it
that way, every time I visited France I was amazed that most Frenchmen
didn't know any other language except their own. And all these people
claimed that they studied English/German/whatever in school for years.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: About dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:30 PM 8/23/96 +0200, Janos Zsargo wrote in connection with my dog example
:

>Thanks Eva for the nice biology lesson, however let me ask something. Have
>you ever seen male/female dogs 'amusing themselves' while the opposing sex
>is actually present on the scene and 'accident' would be allowed to happen?
>Also have you seen male/female dogs being 'urged' by the smell of another
>dog with the same sex? If not, your example is simple the analogy of the
>human 'prison homosexuality'.


        With my limited experience with a breed where human intervention is
usually employed I observed three kinds of bitches [females]: (1) the eager
ones. These are bitches who seem to enjoy sex very much and one can observe
their eagerness quite plainly. They seem to be in the minority; (2) the
indifferent sort. We don't know what they think or how they feel because
they seem to be simply enduring the whole procedure without any obvious sign
of satisfaction; (3) those who resist intercourse. I have encountered two or
three of these. Normally, the "season" is about three weeks but out of these
20-21 days only during four or five days can an intercourse be achieved.
This period is called the "prime." Before and after prime the bitch will not
allow the dog to get close to her and an experienced dog will not even try.
Once, however, the prime arrives the bitch will "flag," that is, will turn
her tail to the side which will be an invitation to the dog to have
intercourse. The bitches in this third category simply are not impressed by
the fact that they are supposed to be in prime. They simply refuse to let
the male get close to them. And there is where human intervention usually
comes in. In a case like that the breeder will simply collect the semen of
the dog and will do an artificial insemination. Whether the poor bitch likes
it or not, she will most likely have puppies. By the way, bitches
impregnated like this seem to be just as good or indifferent mothers as
those who had been impregnated naturally.

        As for males. Here again you will find different degrees of sexual
interest and expertise. My most interesting observation is that a male seems
to "know" that he doesn't have sperm and refuses to perform the act. It is
really uncanny.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:29 PM 8/23/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>Heidegger is rooted so deeply in the European culture
>that we don't need, thank you very much, culturally
>challanged advices from over the sea.
.......

>The American culture is more
>like idol-worshipping than the European.
>
>I'm just over celebrating 11 hundred years of my people
>in Europe. And in Hungary it is a reason to celebrate.
>In the U.S. you may celebrate the birthday of Mickey
>Mouse, as comparable?


        I can't quite believe that I am reading this. You really think that
just because you happen to be born in Europe you will understand Heidegger
or any other European philosopher better than a "culturally challenged"
person in the United States? You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

        You claim that there is reason to celebrate in Hungary--pray, tell
me, why? Perhaps a hundred years ago there was real reason to celebrate
because the millennium happened to coincide with a prosperous and optimistic
age. Today, there is darn little to celebrate. And, by the way, the
longevity of nationhood by itself is no virtue.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:33 AM 8/24/96 -0800, E. Fischer wrote:


>among my friends, some of the longest lasting relationships have been among
>people of the same sex. it is ridiculous to consider that same-sex couples
>do not have recourse to the same services and respect accorded to couples
>of opposing genders. ridiculous. the quality, or value of a human life is
>not dependent on sexual orientation. nor should the quality or value of
>human affection be so circumscribed.

        Of course, I fully agree with the above.

>hey eva, what kind of dogs do you breed?

        Basset hounds.

>i just acquired a bouvier des flandres pup and he the greatest! i tried to
>get a komondor but i could not find one i could afford, so i got the next
>best thing :-)

        I didn't realize that there is a considerable price difference
between these two breeds. Bouviers are nice dogs. Good luck with him!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:39 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>Gabor Farkas said:
>On one hand the government should stop "this over-taxation",  on the other
>it should grant salary increases and reduce prices. Are you suggesting they
>just print more money?
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>NO I am not...I am suggesting that they stop spending so much.

        I find it disturbing that from post to post some people simply
change the wording of certain statements. Gabor Farkas reacted to Peter's
"time to slashing prices" statement similarly to me. But then, Peter, as if
he had never said a word about "slashing prices" suddenly talks about
reducing the budget. One cannot argue this way. One must stick with the
original premises.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:27 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
>> Gabor Farkas said:
>> On one hand the government should stop "this over-taxation",  on the other
>> it should grant salary increases and reduce prices. Are you suggesting they
>> just print more money?
>>
>> Gabor D. Farkas
>>
>> NO I am not...I am suggesting that they stop spending so much.
>
> But, you see, much of the spending is supporting some people's income: in
>the form of still supporting some money-losing factories (which should be
>done awya better sooner than later IMHO - but this appeared even less
>popular than having some increase in inflation), in the form of social
>security, or in the form of much-needed welfare.

        Indeed, Zoli Fekete is one hundred percent right. The government is
in a quandry: if they do what they should do (close factories, reduce child
support further, raise tuition, raise energy prices) the population would be
even worse off, at least in the short run.

>Another big chunk goes to
>servicing the country's debt - I know your dream is to just stop doing
>that, but that is likely to cause runaway inflation AND a collapse of the
>economy leading to few people afforing anything, particularly import
>products to be hit hardest by Hungary going bankrupt.

        Something like a third of the budget goes for debt payments.

>> BTW..it is by edict that they have placed huge tariffs on i mports
> They have just lowered some tariffs I believe. In any event I do not
>think that they are much higher than the western norm - you wouldn't
>happen to have actual numbers, would you?

        It was necessary to raise tariffs in order to lower spending.
Hungarians spent more than they produced.

        And by the way, the Hungarian government promised to the now
privately owned energy companies that they would be able to raise prices as
of September 1 to the point that the price would cover the cost! The
government, for fears of further unpopularity, postponed the price hike
again to January 1. That's why the minister of industry had to go: he didn't
agree with the government's decision. Is it a good decision? I doubt it.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:11 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>In Hungary for example (unlike the USA) men can
>hug, kiss, caress in public and is expected from relatives.
>I would be considered rude IF I did not kiss my uncles, grandfathers,
>fathers, or my close friends. Here it would be looked upon as strange.
>And one does kiss these relatives in private and public.

        Well, unless social norms have changed in Hungary radically in the
last few months, I find the above simply inaccurate. Men don't kiss (maybe
you got them confused with Kadar kissing Brezhnev a la Russian customs) or
caress each other in public in Hungary.

        Women, on the other hand, more often walk arm in arm than in the
United States.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam:
> Ah, so you're French, eh? Well, that rather tidily explains your complete
> lack of a sense of humor and your overweening pomposity.
I just want to distance myself from these
anti-French sentiments produced by our 'anti-
hater' champion, Sam Stowe. Sam, if you want
to continue spreading this stuff (the name of
this list is HUNGARY!!), then, please, hit
the road and leave this list alone.
                                    Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe:
> >ESB:
> >> The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
> >> to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
> >> again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
> >> shocked. By now, I just laugh.
>
> >What does this have to do with people.
> >Could you explain, please?
> >(I wanna laugh, too.)        Sz. Zoli
>
> So, you wanna laugh, too, eh?  Try this.  It may work.  On a piece of paper
> write the words, "I HAVE THE ANSWER TO EVERYTHING" backwards .

Joe, I'm really sorry, but you missed the point (as always?).
I can not see any reason to sanctify animal behavior for
human use. Darwinists have never explained why should we
make strong associations between animal and human behavior.

By the way, I have seen several times dogs and cats eating
cockroaches. Would you say yumm?!
                                                  Sz. Zoli

P.S. Any more good news about math?
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Farkas D. Gabor:
> My understanding is, however, that sexual
> urges are comparable to other instincts (like eating)
That's right!
And your choice is where you go out to eat
with your lady, and what you choose from
the menu. (And in a fine restaurant, hope-
fully, they don't put cockroaches on the
menu.)

> Also, it is difficult for me to imagine that after seeing others being
> killed, beaten to a pulp, ridiculed, excommunicated, etc., etc., one would
> choose to be a homosexual.
They choose the easy, unchallenged pleasure
without any moral consequences whatsoever.

And by this they choose to be free from any
human authority. They always have trouble
with authorities. Homosexuality in a sense
is nothing more than the uncapability of
accepting any human (or spiritual) authority.
And it has all the consequences.
                                   Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 10:11 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
> >I would be considered rude IF I did not kiss my uncles, grandfathers,
> >fathers, or my close friends. Here it would be looked upon as strange.
> >And one does kiss these relatives in private and public.
>
>         Well, unless social norms have changed in Hungary radically in the
> last few months, I find the above simply inaccurate. Men don't kiss (maybe
> you got them confused with Kadar kissing Brezhnev a la Russian customs)

 Ouch - we're not talking about those 'nyelvespuszik' on the comrades'
lips ;-( which were indeed Slavic manifestation (as I recall the
Bulgarians and/or Romanians were even more French-tongued about it than
the Russians - and at least the Hungarian commies didn't do it among
themselves), but rather what you may better call pecks on the cheeks; that
has indeed been quite common among relatives, although mere friends rarely
do it it's still not quite unseen either.

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

ESB:
> >Heidegger is rooted so deeply in the European culture
> >that we don't need, thank you very much, culturally
> >challanged advices from over the sea.
> .......
> >The American culture is more
> >like idol-worshipping than the European.
> >
> >I'm just over celebrating 11 hundred years of my people
> >in Europe. And in Hungary it is a reason to celebrate.
> >In the U.S. you may celebrate the birthday of Mickey
> >Mouse, as comparable?
>
>         I can't quite believe that I am reading this. You really think that
> just because you happen to be born in Europe you will understand Heidegger
> or any other European philosopher better than a "culturally challenged"
> person in the United States?

Not, it is not what I'm saying. But Heidegger is European.
And Europe has its own history. Sam has never explained me
that how could all the European powers in 1938 allow Hitler
to occupy Czechslovakia peacefully. The European mind had
some misconceptions about Hitler and the Nazis before the
war. And the Americans don't understand this.

(On the other hand, I don't understand why did not the US
troops bomb railways leading to concentration camps in the
end of the war. Many lives could have been saved. The
American intelligence had exact informations what's going
on in death camps.)

The American idol is the money. Money-worshipping is nothing
new in history. What is new, however, is that this money-
worshipping became mainstream and the basis of the society.

> You claim that there is reason to celebrate in Hungary--pray, tell
> me, why?
Ooh, is it something official? Is it the governmental stand-
point about the Millecentenarium? Then I understand all the
failures of the celebration...

> Today, there is darn little to celebrate. And, by the way, the
> longevity of nationhood by itself is no virtue.
No virtue? It is very surprising for me! History suggest
something different. Is it not disturbing you?

Anyway, I respect the 3000th year celebration of Jerusalem.
It must have some significance for his people, if they
celebrate it.
                                                  Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> >
> >On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> >> NO I am not...I am suggesting that they stop spending so much.
> >
> > But, you see, much of the spending is supporting some people's income: in
> >the form of still supporting some money-losing factories (which should be
> >done awya better sooner than later IMHO - but this appeared even less
> >popular than having some increase in inflation), in the form of social
> >security, or in the form of much-needed welfare.
>
>         Indeed, Zoli Fekete is one hundred percent right. The government is
> in a quandry: if they do what they should do (close factories, reduce child
> support further, raise tuition, raise energy prices) the population would be
> even worse off, at least in the short run.

 To bring some hard data (shudders ;-)) into this thread I have looked up
this years' budget, available from the website at the Prime Minister's
Office: <http://www.meh.hu/egyeb/kvtv/1996/10melltv.htm>;. The numbers
given there do not provide direct basis for calculating the effect of
taxes on prices (or for that matter for deciding how much of the rather
incredible claim of "100+% import duties on practically everything" would
stand up to the facts). But at least one can ponder, with some
quantitative ground, as to what can be done if one'd made to be king.

 I haven't had much time to analyze the table in any depth yet, so what I
present here are admittedly random pickings (I'll try to focus on the
big-ticket entires, though). Total revenues come to 1,628 trillion Ft
(that's "milliard" in Hungarian), outlays at 1,860T; the running balance is
('folyo egyenleg') is -233T whis corrected by the 100T privatization
income yields 133T deficit.
 Leading revenue source is VAT and consumption taxes totalling 752T, then
comes 411T from personal income-tax related payments, and 224T duties and
import payments.
 On the payable side debt servicing (interest payments) is 547T, and a
separate (but to my financially layer-than-layman self unclearly
differentiated ;-)) category of 'koltsegvetes torlesztesei' (debt
repayment by the budget ?) is 345T; support to various organs belonging
under the central budget (which includes the military, schools, health
services etc.) is 457T, support to local self-governments (ie.  settlement
councils) is 330T, welfare payments thru social security are 199T (of
which 126T is family support and 50T is income supplements).  Agricultural
and industrial dotations and subsidies amount to 103T, and consumers'
price support is 42T.

 So it seems to me that eliminating say half of the duty/import revenue
would either double Hungary's deficit, or else would necessitate the
already over-played 'which finger to cut' elimination game for 100T or so
from the spendings, few of which would be without the effect of either
raising prices or costing more money to the population (or both) - while
makning little dent on the confiscation done by the VAT and income tax.
 Incidentally, lessening duty protection would conceivably also hurt local
industry badly, but hey - maybe getting a Norelco at the same price as in
NY would be good enough consolation for workers laid off due to foreign
competition ;-<...

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A. Albu wrote:
><snip>.. As a causality argument you are right. I was referring to the
>quantum of what we call Western Civilization. If you speak about the
>quantum of values we define as Western Civilization then you are wrong.

Tsk, tsk, this is not a terribly impressive piece of discourse
(viz: I'm right, you're wrong)! Such, er, youthfulness :-) is not
really worthy of a reply on a list for mature adults, but I'll close
the matter and refute your misinformed claim once and for all. BTW
did it ever occur to you to try and prove your case with some kind
of reasoned argument? No, I didn't think so.

You initially said that were the supposedly superior Italian culture
to be somehow *removed* its loss would affect Western Civilzation
the most, then you changed your position (apparently in support of
this claim) with *the last 500 years* has seen more impact than all
previous time together on Western Civilization. Now it's *quantum*
superiority of Italian culture over the others. Wow! Have you made
your mind up yet? And each a hugely sweeping supposition without any
arguments whatsoever to back them up.

It is naive to propose that any single chunk of European civilization
(subsequent to the Greek) can simply be removed and divorced from all
the influences responsible for its existence. Roman civilization was
thoroughly imbued with Greek thought and culture (Greeks even largely
administered the Roman Empire continuing the use of their language as
the lingua franca of the Near East...even J.C. is reckoned to have
been [at least] tri-lingual in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek). Taking
*civilization* to mean the ethical perfecting of the individual and
the community (evolution of human consciousness) then the Greeks
laid the foundations for all subsequent civilization in Europe.
On the break-up of the Roman Empire the Eastern Roman-cum-Byzantine
Empire remained the most durable standard bearers of European
civilization until Charlemagne of Aachen stabilized Central and
Western Europe, opening the door to the Middle Ages. The Scholasticism
which prevailed throughout the Dark and Middle Ages was a world-
negating Christian ethic ironically sustained by the unashamed use
of Aristotelian logic (although that Scholasticism made Latin the
lingua franca of intellectual Europe for quite a few centuries.)

Even the Italian Renaissance was powered by the migration of learned
Greeks from Constantinople to Italy during the 15th century. Those
Greek scholars brought back with renewed vigour the knowledge of Greek
philosophy in its original form to an Italian peninsula ravaged by
invasions and suffocated by Scholasticism. Even the brilliant, if
relatively short, era of Leonardo, Galileo, etc, was somewhat strangled
by the all-powerful Church. Certainly, this impetus was vital in the
development of Western civilization, but the real and continued driving
force was due to French, German and other influences. Just look at
a few names: Erasmus, Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Kant, Hegel,
Rousseau, Voltaire, Spinoza, Newton, Leibniz, Mill, Goethe, Darwin,
Nietzsche, etc, etc...it is difficult to find Italian names of comparable
stature outside the 15th/16th centuries. So I'm afraid your dream about
Italian *quantum* superiority doesn't impress me at all, notwithstanding
that Italy's greatest contribution to Western civilization since the
Renaissance seems to be the tangenti mentality and the Mafia (being
occasionally short-changed in Paris is nothing: it's routinely a way of
life, perpetrated by officials and all, in today's *civilized* Italy).

That's as much as I'm prepared to say on this matter since you need
to do your own research (otherwise my fees start at $100.-- per hour)
and, besides, I'm not interested in discussions with people who can
only manage lines like: *I'm right and you're wrong*. Ego-trip on
somebody else's time.

Basta!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: Magyarorszagi newsgroup-ok? (Newsgroups in Hungary) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 The list, according to <nntp://news.iif.hu>:
hun.comp    Mindenfele szamitastechnikai tema
hun.lists.hix.forum    HIX/FORUM mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.hix.guru    HIX/GURU mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.hix.kornyesz    HIX/KORNYESZ mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.hix.moka    HIX/MOKA mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.hix.otthon    HIX/OTTHON mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.hix.szalon    HIX/SZALON mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.hix.tipp    HIX/TIPP mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.katalist      Discussion on librarian systems and databases
 (Hungarian)
hun.lists.sztaki-l      MTA SZTAKI internal news (Hungarian)
hun.net    Az internet magyar darabjaval kapcsolatos tarsalgas
hun.news    Discussion forum of the hun.* national hierarchy (Hungarian)
hun.piac    Mindenfele maganjellegu adok-veszek, cserebere
hun.lists.hudom-l       ?
hun.lists.hix.randi    HIX/RANDI mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.lists.hix.sport    HIX/SPORT mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.nyelv    A magyar nyelv
hun.lists.mlf.linux    Linux levelezesi lista (moderated)
hun.lists.mlf.linux-doc    Linux levelezesi lista (moderated)
hun.lists.hunopen    HUNOPEN levelezesi lista
hun.lists.mlf.unix    Linux levelezesi lista, altalanos Unix kerdesek
 (moderated)
hun.comp.lang.java    A Java programozasi nyelv
hun.org.hungarnet.egyeni-kutatok    Hungarnet Egyesulet Egyeni Kutatok
 Szakosztalya
hun.lists.hix.jatek    HIX/Jatek digest (Moderated)
hun.hobbi    Szabadidos tevekenysegek
hun.lists.hix.kultura   HIX/KULTURA mailing list (Hungarian)(Moderated)
hun.comp.os.solaris    Solaris es SunOS
hun.comp.text.tex    TeX es LaTeX

 Note that hun.lists are gatewayed email lists (some of quite high volume)
that are available via various gateways already, so for a limited feed one
may want to get only the others. Contact the admin Gabor Kiss
> to discuss how to pick up a feed directly, or you may
get it via the USA providers already carrying it (I know two: alt.net and
c2.org). In the meantime, one can connect directly to their NNTP port too
- - but for foreign link it could be excruciatingly slow!
 Incidentally, the more people would request that ISPs pick up hun.* the
better propagation we all would enjoy, so please everyone who can push
the issue, particularly at large national outlets like AOL and netcom in
the US, and big hubs in Austria and Germany would especially be helpful
in getting the worldwide distribution off the ground!

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Hawaii Connection, Inc. wrote:
> We would like to find out what major hungarian newsgroups are currently
> active in Hungary so that we can ask our local ISP to carry/mirror them.
> Does anyone have a list? Thank you in advance

 If I may plug my FAQ, it's all in there too :-)...
 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



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+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>So, you wanna laugh, too, eh?  Try this.  It may work.  On a piece of
paper
>write the words, "I HAVE THE ANSWER TO EVERYTHING" backwards .  Once
you've
>finished, pin the piece of paper to your chest and stand in front of a
>mirror.  I'm sure you'll laugh.
>
>Let me know if it works.  OK?
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Laugh, hell. It'll simply confirm what he already fervently believes.
Sam Stowe

"I only use my gun
Whenever kindness fails..."
-- Robert Earl Keen
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To George Szaszvari:

Thanks for your support in the matter.
Then let us close the argument with the stated of posting :


 Certainly, this impetus (Italian)  was vital in the
> development of Western civilization, but the real and continued driving
> force was due to +French+, German and other influences. Just look at
> a few names: Erasmus, Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Kant, Hegel,
> Rousseau, Voltaire, Spinoza, Newton, Leibniz, Mill, Goethe, Darwin,
> Nietzsche, etc, etc...it is difficult to find Italian names of
        >comparable.....


No Hungarians?

I would not list Goethe in that line. After all his admiration was
with the Serb defiance of the Western Civilization, being himself in
rebellion with it.


A. Albu
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:
[in a moment hazier than usual ;-(...]
>[...] Total revenues come to 1,628 trillion Ft
 This should, of course, read 1,628 billion aka 1.628 trillion, and all my
subsequent 'T's should be 'B's instead - I did get it right this time ;-(.

 While at the numbers, in the meantime I picked up (from FBIS) the
country's gross debt figure: it's about 5 trillion (that's 5,000,000,000)
Ft, up five-fold since 1990.

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



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+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Perhaps one needs to look at what really needs to take place. First
the taxes (prices) have to be reduced and simultaneously the budget
(expenses) have to be reduced. That is the only way Hungary will
survive.

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 10:39 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>
> >Gabor Farkas said:
> >On one hand the government should stop "this over-taxation",  on the other
> >it should grant salary increases and reduce prices. Are you suggesting they
> >just print more money?
> >
> >Gabor D. Farkas
> >
> >NO I am not...I am suggesting that they stop spending so much.
>
>         I find it disturbing that from post to post some people simply
> change the wording of certain statements. Gabor Farkas reacted to Peter's
> "time to slashing prices" statement similarly to me. But then, Peter, as if
> he had never said a word about "slashing prices" suddenly talks about
> reducing the budget. One cannot argue this way. One must stick with the
> original premises.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

One doesn't have to be an expert to recognize the absurdity of your
"choice" theory. says Eva.
>>> It is a fact not a theory.
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva said:
 Well, unless social norms have changed in Hungary radically in the
last few months, I find the above simply inaccurate. Men don't kiss
>> Too bad Eva that your powers of observation have vaned, perhaps you
need glasses...or possibly you only go to limited areas of Hungary.
Let me assure you that the practice is alive and well, especially for
older frined, and relative.


You are right that the Women in Hungary do tend to walk arm-in arm.
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoli Fekete got this right!
 Ouch - we're not talking about those 'nyelvespuszik' on the comrades'
lips ;-

General question: when was the last time anyone saw heteros men kiss in the
USA or Canada?

What I said perhaps is closer to what Zolisaid---maybe called a peck but
not OUCH!!!
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Perhaps one needs to look at what really needs to take place. First
> the taxes (prices) have to be reduced and simultaneously the budget
> (expenses) have to be reduced.

 For the umptieth time I am asking, in the hope that finally you'd hear
it: what expenses would you be reducing? Remember how the relatively minor
(compared to what would be needed to balance a significant tax cut)
restrictions in the Bokros-package infuriated much of the population.
Those cuts are already in place. What else could you take away?

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:35 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely > wrote:

>Farkas D. Gabor:
>> My understanding is, however, that sexual
>> urges are comparable to other instincts (like eating)
>That's right!
>And your choice is where you go out to eat
>with your lady, and what you choose from
>the menu. (And in a fine restaurant, hope-
>fully, they don't put cockroaches on the
>menu.)
>
>> Also, it is difficult for me to imagine that after seeing others being
>> killed, beaten to a pulp, ridiculed, excommunicated, etc., etc., one would
>> choose to be a homosexual.
>They choose the easy, unchallenged pleasure
>without any moral consequences whatsoever.
>
>And by this they choose to be free from any
>human authority. They always have trouble
>with authorities. Homosexuality in a sense
>is nothing more than the uncapability of
>accepting any human (or spiritual) authority.
>And it has all the consequences.

This cockroache analogy of yours is really irritating.  You may think that
the analogy makes you look smart, clever and debonair.  It does not!  It
make's you look tired and boring.

Try reading Kafka's "Metamorphosis" if you're so taken aback by cockroaches.
And please, try and understand the book.  I'll give you a head start, OK?
It's not about beetles.

Joe Szalai

"You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is
something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps
this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid."
        Franz Kafka
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:20 AM 8/25/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

Peter Soltesz
>>Do you really believe that being gay/lesbian is a normal thing?

Eva Balogh
>        Obviously it is not "a normal thing," and I never said that it was.


I agree with Eva Balogh.  Being gay/lesbian is not a normal thing.  It is
above normal.  It is special!  Hell, if it was just normal, every jerk and
yahoo, would want to become gay.  But it's not that easy.  Only a relatively
small percentage of the population is so honoured.

Joe Szalai

"Then the question began to live under my blankets: How did lesbianism
begin? What were the symptoms? The public library gave information on the
finished lesbian-and that woefully sketchy-but on the growth of a lesbian,
there was nothing. I did discover that the difference between hermaphrodites
and lesbians was that hermaphrodites were "born that way." It was impossible
to determine whether lesbians budded gradually, or burst into being with a
suddenness that dismayed them as much as it repelled society."
      Maya Angelou
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Zoli, et al......
Pleasse forgive the response's length, but this subject is
complex and difficult;
BTW Zoli - this is the FIRST (not the umptienth ) request that I got!

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> > Perhaps one needs to look at what really needs to take place. First
> > the taxes (prices) have to be reduced and simultaneously the budget
> > (expenses) have to be reduced.
>
>  For the umptieth time I am asking, in the hope that finally you'd hear
> it: what expenses would you be reducing? Remember how the relatively minor
> (compared to what would be needed to balance a significant tax cut)
> restrictions in the Bokros-package infuriated much of the population.
> Those cuts are already in place. What else could you take away?
>
>  --
>From the Economic Press Review -- American Embassy Budapest
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
in the first three months of 1996,
tourism generated inflows of usd 337 million, 47 percent
less than during the same period in 1995.  the improved
balance is attributable to a drop in outflows which largely
results from a decline in the demand for convertible
currency for tourism purposes.
===>
businesses continued to make only modest investment in
the first quarter of 1996, which caused a considerable
downturn in the construction industry and in the domestic
sales of the industrial sector.
===>
the volume of production in industrial branches manufacturing
investment products was 74 percent of production one year earlier
===>
construction accounted for huf 81 billion of the total
investment, or 48 percent of all investment in the national
economy.  machinery investments totalled huf 73 billion and
accounted for 43 percent of total investment.  most private
investment made over this period was in housing.
===>
parliament will vote early next month on an amendment
which attempts to stem hemorrhaging at the two state social
security funds by tightening spending controls.  the
amendment, approved in the last week of may by  parliament's
constitutional and health committees, would force the funds
to submit annual budgets to the cabinet by aug. 31 for the
following year, the same date the finance ministry presents
the state budget.  the funds, on target to run a deficit of
forint 50-60 billion this year - far above the forint 17.8
billion hungary pledged to the international monetary fund
(imf) in march - have submitted budgets late for the past
three years.
===>
the national bank of hungary (nbh) announced the
reduction of its active and reverse repo rates by 0.5-1.0
percent effective on june 4.  overnight and one-week active
repo rates are both reduced from the current 30.50 percent
to 29.50 percent and the passive repo rate with one month
maturity is lowered from 24.50 percent to 24 percent.  the
overnight passive repo rate and the rate of supplementary
active o/n rate remain unchanged at 17.50 percent and 35
percent respectively.
===>
Tripartism Stumbles and Stalls in Hungary

   For some time Hungary has been the jewel in the industrial relations
   crown as far as the ILO is concerned in Eastern Europe. It was the one
   country with an enduring commitment to tripartite consultations and
   consensus building. Since early 1995 however the jewel has been
   shinning less brightly.

   In February the Government and the social partners formally abandoned
   their six month search for a "Social Pact". On the same day the trade
   unions walked out of the discussions in the Hungarian tripartite
   council over amendments to the labour code and the parties failed to
   reach consensus on wage guidelines for 1995. Since that time there
   have been several further meetings of the tripartite council but each
   has ended in disputes and indecision.

   The Government of Hungary had been negotiating a "Social Pact" with
   the trade unions and employers since the Summer of 1994. This Pact was
   a key component in the political platform of the Socialist Party at
Tripartism Stumbles and Stalls in Hungary (p2 of 8)
   the 1994 national election and was expected to become an important
   instrument for implementing the Governments economic strategy. The
   Pact was expected to outline the broad policy parameters for the next
   three years in the economic, social and industrial relations policy
   fields.

   This Pact is now long dead. Nevertheless in late 1994 the Government
   did reach an agreement with the social partners about the broad
   contours of the fiscal budget for 1995. After prolonged and difficult
   negotiations the trade unions accepted that, in the current economic
   environment, there was little scope for measures that would increase
   social spending or redistribute income. Moreover they accepted in
   principle the necessity of continued wage restraint in 1995 and
   consensus was reached for a moderate increase in the minimum wage.

   The deal over the Budget for 1995 was a very mature and economically
   rational approach from the trade unions. However given the declines in
   living standards that have occurred over the last half-decade it would
   have been unreasonable to expect workers to willingly accept further
   sacrifices.
This agreement has been overtaken by events. Faced with crippling
   deficits on the foreign trade account and the domestic fiscal budget,
   plus intensive pressure from the Bretton Woods Organisations to
   correct this twin-deficit problem, the Government abruptly abandoned
   its support for the tripartite approach to economic policy development
   in March 1995. The Government introduced a severe austerity package of
   cuts in social security provisions, government expenditure, wage cuts,
   job reductions and devaluation of the currency. There was no prior
   consultations with the social partners.

   The breakdown of tripartism has created a huge vacuum in the
   industrial relations field and has left the social partners virtually
   powerless. Unfortunately, in Hungary the trade unions and employers
   have devoted insufficient attention to establishing the structures
   that are necessary to underpin this national tripartite council.

   Consequently they now have little viable alternative mechanism for
   protecting their membership.
A few salient facts are worth mentioning. The level of trade union
   membership has plummeted in Hungary, over the last half-decade. The
   real number of members actually paying union fees is a fraction of
   what it was a few years ago. Moreover there is no effective system of
   collective agreements. Last year less than 200,000 workers were
   covered by branch level collective contracts in the entire country.
   While at the enterprise level there were only 440 collective
   agreements out of some 85,000 enterprises.

   Perhaps more importantly these recent events have suggested that there
   is a lack of genuine solidarity among workers and the pure "industrial
   relations muscle" of the unions is open to question. The unions have
   had to accept that they were unable to organise any national
   collective protest action in response to the Governments' actions and
   the breakdown of tripartism.

   Throughout Eastern Europe the process of privatisation, restructuring
   of heavy industry and depressed economic conditions have contributed
   to declining unionisation rates. However even if economic conditions
   improve this alone will not regenerate the "grass-roots" base of the
trade union movement. In the future the trade unions will need to
   pursue new members more aggressively. This will require, inter alia,
   the development of imaginative campaigns to improve their
   attractiveness among young workers in the expanding services sector.
   It would also seem desirable to devote more manpower and resources to
   collective bargaining at the enterprise and industry level.

   It is also disappointing that an opportunity seems to have been lost
   over the last six months for a trade-off between the Socialist
   Government and the trade unions that would have preserved the momentum
   of economic reform in return for alterations to the labour legislation
   and the industrial relations institutional arrangements. With a
   sympathetic Government in place and talk of a Social Pact dominating
   the discussions, circumstances seemed ripe for the trade unions to try
   and rectify their "Achilles heel".

   Unfortunately it would appear that the Government has not promoted
   branch level collective bargaining as firmly as might have been
   expected. Given the expansion of small private enterprises, operated
   by employers that are hostile to trade unions, one logical strategy is
to reverse the trend in the declining coverage of branch level
   collective agreements. Under the existing labour code the Minister of
   Labour has the power to extend collective agreements that have been
   reached in several enterprises to cover the whole industry branch.
   There have been several requests from the trade unions to the
   Government about the use of these provisions. To date however there
   has been no determined use of these powers to expand the coverage of
   collective contracts.

   The trade unions have recently made other recommendations, in the
   context of the debate about amendments to the labour code, that might
   facilitate collective bargaining. For some time the employers in
   Hungary have been seeking greater flexibility with overtime
   pro-visions and an increase in the span of normal working hours. The
   Government has accepted the need for greater flexibility in working
   time and reflected several suggestions made by the emp-loyers in the
   new draft labour code. In response the trade unions suggested
   preserving the status quo with the labour legislation but making
   provision for branch level collective agreements to allow greater
   flexibility with overtime and standard working hours. If the
Government is really serious about promoting collective bargaining
   these suggestions deserve careful consider-ation.

   For an institution like the ILO, which has a fundamental faith in
   tripartism, the recent events in Hungary are obviously disturbing.
   Particularly because such high expectations had been generated over
   the last six months. However it would be wrong to over react to the
   current setbacks. At no stage has the ILO ever suggested that
   tripartism is a perfect panacea for all manner of problems nor that
   the day-to-day operation of a tripartite forum would be free from
   friction. What we do believe is that tripartism is better than the
   alternatives that might occur. In that sense it is no different to
   democracy itself, which may be a imperfect political system and
   difficult to administer at times, yet is far superior to any other
   system.

   Tripartism in Hungary is currently going through one of those
   difficult periods but the institutions and the parties deserve our
   ongoing support. We should take whatever steps are possible to
   encourage all sides to put short term political aspirations aside and
pursue four objectives: the development of a mature mixed economy; an
   expansion of collective bargaining; the long term survival of a robust
   trade union move-ment; and the promotion of well functioning employer
   organisations.
Hungary is still in the midst of a difficult transition from a command to a
market economy. Its economic reforms during the Communist era gave it a head
start on this process, particularly in terms of attracting foreign
investors -
Hungary has accounted for about half of all foreign direct investment in
Eastern Europe since 1989. Nonetheless, the economy continued to contract in
1993, with real GDP falling perhaps 1%. Although the privatization
process has
lagged, in December 1993 Hungary carried out the largest privatization
yet in
Eastern Europe, selling a controlling interest in the Matav
telecommunications
firm to private investors - including a 30% share to a US-German
consortium for
$875 million. Overall, about half of GDP now originates in the private
sector.
Unemployment rose to about 13% in 1993 while inflation remained above
20%, and
falling exports pushed the trade deficit to about $3 billion. The government
hopes that economic recovery in Western Europe in 1994 will boost exports,
lower the trade deficit, and help jump-start the economy. The budget,
however,
is likely to remain a serious concern; depressed tax revenue pushed up the

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Due to the fact that I do not have the time to argue a complex issue and
rather than give you an attempt at an answer, such as you requested,
may I please give you some reference papers to see just what is
wrong with the WELFARE state (in Hungary, et al):

The Welfare State and Competitiveness
          Alberto Alesina (Harvard University, NBER and CEPR), Roberto
          Perotti (Columbia University)

   Generational Accounts, Aggregate Saving and Intergenerational Distribution
          Willem H. Buiter (University of Cambridge, Centre for Economic
          Performance, LSE, NBER and CEPR)

   Contribution-Based Versus Earnings-Related Retirement Pension Systems:
          Some Policy Proposals for Italy
          Maria Cozzolino (ISPE), Fiorella Padoa Schioppa Kostoris
          (Universit degli Studi di Roma 'La Sapienza', ISPE and CEPR)

   Monitoring the Welfare State
          Jeremy Edwards (St. John's College, Cambridge and CEPR). Paul
          Seabright (Churchill College, Cambridge and CEPR)

   Limits to Redistribution in the Welfare State
          Bernhard Felderer (IHS, Vienna)

   The Citizen Account: A Possible Reform Strategy for Sweden's Welfare
          State
          Stefan Flster (The Industrial Institute for Economic and
          Social Research, Stockholm)
European Pension Systems: A Simulation Analysis
          Turalay Kenc ( University of Cambridge), William Perraudin
          (Birkbeck College, London and CEPR)

   On the Damaging Side Effects of the Welfare System: How, Why and What
          To Do
          Edmund S. Phelps (Columbia University)

   The Emerging Role of Enterprise in Social Policy
          Martin Rein (MIT), Eskil Wadensj (University of Stockholm)  l

   A Framework for Analyzing the Political Support for Active Labor
          Market Policy
          Gilles Saint-Paul (DELTA and CEPR)

   Opting Out of the Welfare State
          Dennis Snower (Birkbeck College, London and CEPR)

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><>

One final comment will entice you and others to think more clearly:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Nobel prize winner    (1994) John C. Harsanyi from the
University of California at Berkeley.
Harsanyi was invited by the Institut Wiener Kreis and held a
lecture at IHS on Utilitarianism.

   Harsanyi first discussed the basic principles of utilitarian theory.
   Then he tried to make a case for rule utilitarianism against act
   utilitarianism. Act utilitarianism is the view that a morally right
   action is one that would yield the highest expected social utility.
   Rule utilitarianism is the view that a morally right action is simply
   an action in compliance with the optimal moral code which would yield
   the highest expected social utility if it were followed by all members
   of society, or at least by those with a serious concern for morality.
   He also discussed the role of morality and other values in human life.

   Most authors writing about ethics agree that sensible moral norms will
   promote the interests of individual human beings and of society as a
   whole. Utilitarians say that human beings have two basic concerns -
one is their own well-being, the other is the well-being of other
   people. The basic principle of utilitarian theory is that the best
   moral norms are those maximizing social utility.

   Harsanyi pointed out that it is better to live in a society whose
   moral code respects individual rights and our special obligations and
   recognizes the social value of promise keeping, truth telling, being
   grateful to our benefactors, and of some other moral rules of common
   sense morality because of their desirable expectation effects.
   Likewise, it is better to live in a society whose moral code allows
   people a good deal of free choice in their personal lives and does not
   impose unacceptably burdensome restrictions on people's personal
   behavior.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Regards, Peter Soltesz

< end >
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Good question Andy..Probably yes, BUT the most important
thing here is that it is the others, the evil people form the Germans
on to all those Nazis and sympatizers who fell for the BS of Nazism
superiority of the Arian race, etc. These people were/are EVIL at heart
and that is why over 6 million people died (possibly in vain) 'cause we
apparently still havent learned (see former Yugo, et al).
Peter

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Andy Kozma wrote:

> >>
> >>Are the Jews in this punishment also included?Andy
> >Yes of course!
> >
> >Would you please,please enlighten me why 6 million where killed?Most
> probaly they were innocent people,was God that angry at them?
> Andy.
>
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

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On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> BTW Zoli - this is the FIRST (not the umptienth ) request that I got!

 OK then, I don't mind if we start the count here: for the second time
now, what spending would you cut to make up for the decrease of revenues
you're proposing ;-(?! You seem to be suggesting that it'd be 'welfare
state' expenditures. However as I already indicated we're talking about
relatively small sums allocated there on the one hand, and on the other
hand that would mean taking back the same money you're supposedly giving
out with the lowered prices (assuming that the market would drop the
prices as much as the tax and duty burden eases, which itself is a rather
questionable proposition but I'll take it for the sake of argument). The
net effect on affordability then may work out to zero (unless one's main
consummable is Norelco ;-<)...

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:21 AM 8/25/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        And by the way, the Hungarian government promised to the now
>privately owned energy companies that they would be able to raise prices as
>of September 1 to the point that the price would cover the cost! The
>government, for fears of further unpopularity, postponed the price hike
>again to January 1. That's why the minister of industry had to go: he didn't
>agree with the government's decision. Is it a good decision? I doubt it.
>

As a point of interest: the Romanian government started a price-freeze on
essential items until next January.

By the way, elections are scheduled for this fall.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:35 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Sz. Zoli wrote:
>Farkas D. Gabor:
>> My understanding is, however, that sexual
>> urges are comparable to other instincts (like eating)
>That's right!
>And your choice is where you go out to eat
>with your lady, and what you choose from
>the menu. (And in a fine restaurant, hope-
>fully, they don't put cockroaches on the
>menu.)

What I meant is that eating is an instinctual activity that you do otherwise
you starve to death (alone, with your lady or otherwise). I also remember a
recent case of an American Air-Force pilot shot down in Bosnia, who ate bugs
(cockroaches?) to stay alive.

>> Also, it is difficult for me to imagine that after seeing others being
>> killed, beaten to a pulp, ridiculed, excommunicated, etc., etc., one would
>> choose to be a homosexual.
>They choose the easy, unchallenged pleasure
>without any moral consequences whatsoever.

What is the challenge in heterosexual sex? Especially in the age of condoms,
pills, etc.

>And by this they choose to be free from any
>human authority. They always have trouble
>with authorities.

As far as I know, only when the authorities go after them.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:43 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz gave us a large number of sources
that justify the abolition of the welfare state.

Peter, except of a few on this list (Joe Szalai, Eva Durant - by the way
where is she?), you are preaching to the converted.

The problem is that it seems that in Hungary if this is done faster and more
drastically than it is, the country will end up not with a Socialist but
with a Communist government (since there is democracy and the majority seems
to value the welfare state more than the free market). Is that what you want?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe:

> This cockroache analogy of yours is really irritating.
Why? Cockroaches are very nutritious and even dogs
and cats eat them. Or do you want to discriminate
against the different kinds of food? Or against the
'nutricial orientation' of people? ;-)) Don't tell me.

> Try reading Kafka's "Metamorphosis" if you're so taken aback by cockroaches.
Thank you. I already read it a couple of times.
(I have heard that homo-x's just love this story.
I don't know why. There is nothing about or for
homo-x's in it.) Tell me, in your opinion what
is its main line so important to you?

Anyway, may I ask somebody, whoever knows the answer,
why does English have not any word for 'short story',
something, like 'novella'?
                                            Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:52 PM 8/25/96 -0400, "Peter A. Soltesz" > wrote:

>General question: when was the last time anyone saw heteros men kiss in the
>USA or Canada?


Why?  At many work sites you see straight men kissing ass indiscriminately,
all the time.  And your big hang-up is gay men kissing each other on the
lips?  Come on, Peter!  Wake up, and smell the barn yard.

Joe Szalai

"He may have hair upon his chest
But, sister, so has Lassie."
       Cole Porter
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:58 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

ESB:

>>         I can't quite believe that I am reading this. You really think that
>> just because you happen to be born in Europe you will understand Heidegger
>> or any other European philosopher better than a "culturally challenged"
>> person in the United States?
>
ZSz:

>Not, it is not what I'm saying. But Heidegger is European.
>And Europe has its own history.

        Yes, I'm afraid that is what you are saying and you add to it a bit
more: "Heidegger is European. And Europe has its own history." And--William
James is American. The United States has its own history--so, you, as a
non-American, are unable to comment on the philosophy of William James? Or
because you are not an American you are unable to comment on American
history? Or, for that matter on American present? This is nonsense.

ZSz:
>Sam has never explained me
>that how could all the European powers in 1938 allow Hitler
>to occupy Czechslovakia peacefully.

       Why should he explain that to you? And what does that have to do with
his understand of Heidegger.

ZSz:
>The European mind had
>some misconceptions about Hitler and the Nazis before the
>war. And the Americans don't understand this.

        Would you mind spelling out what these misconceptions were? I don't
think that they too many misconceptions, instead, the western powers simply
didn't have the will, only twenty years after four years of bloody conflict,
to start a war again. Plus, the English and eventually the French felt that
there were some injustices suffered by Germany--like the Sudeten
question--and foolishly they thought that a settlement between the Czechs
and the Germans would satisfy Herr Hitler. It didn't.

ZSz:
>(On the other hand, I don't understand why did not the US
>troops bomb railways leading to concentration camps in the
>end of the war. Many lives could have been saved. The
>American intelligence had exact informations what's going
>on in death camps.)

       I know you will come forward with the theory that the Americans
purposely left the Jews die although they knew darn well what was going on
in the camps.

ESB:
>> You claim that there is reason to celebrate in Hungary--pray, tell
>> me, why?

ZSz:
>Ooh, is it something official? Is it the governmental stand-
>point about the Millecentenarium? Then I understand all the
>failures of the celebration...

        Typical Zoli Szekely: suggesting that some Hungarian official
whispered this into my ears and therefore I am representing the "official
standpoint." No, the celebrations were badly prepared. Perhaps organization
is not a Hungarian virtue. Some sober thoughts about availability of money
should have also helped.

ESB:
>> Today, there is darn little to celebrate. And, by the way, the
>> longevity of nationhood by itself is no virtue.

ZSz:
>No virtue? It is very surprising for me! History suggest
>something different. Is it not disturbing you?

        That's correct. Longevity by itself is no virtue. It has to have
some accomplishment behind it and at the moment this accomplishment leaves
something to be desired. In 1896 there was phenomenal accomplishment behind
those celebrations. In thirty years or so, Hungary had become a modern
nation. What does it mean "Is it not disturbing you?" What should disturb
me? That today's Hungarian accomplishment cannot be compared to the
situation a hundred years ago? I might find it sad but not disturbing.

ZSz:
>Anyway, I respect the 3000th year celebration of Jerusalem.
>It must have some significance for his people, if they
>celebrate it.

        Jerusalem is a bit more than a dwelling place which happens to be
3,000 years old. I bet there are a lot of towns which, with the help of
archeologists, can be dated that old or older. What I am trying to say is
that just because X is Y years old it doesn't mean that X is valuable or
important. Longevity by itself is no virtue.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:39 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>Perhaps one needs to look at what really needs to take place. First
>the taxes (prices) have to be reduced and simultaneously the budget
>(expenses) have to be reduced. That is the only way Hungary will
>survive.

        I think it is important to stress that the Hungarian economy's real
state and the statistics on economic performance don't jibe. They don't jibe
because of the existence of the black/grey market. About two years ago, the
size of that black market was estimated as being one-third of the whole.
That is, if the GDP/person is, let's say, $5,000, the actual figure is
$6,760. Nowadays economists are guessing that the size of this hidden
economy is closer to 50% of the whole. The result is a very serious problem
of tax collecting, i.e., only one half of the income is taxed. Of course,
there are certain segments of society where the official statistics are
accurate: these are those poverty-stricken people who try to live on their
"official" salary or pension. They are the ones who cannot heat their little
apartments. But most other people do find a way.

        When one listens to Hungarian friends talking about their salaries
the first thought is: this is impossible. Nobody can live on this salary.
The second thought is: but if this couple with two children earn only X
amount of money how is it possible that they just built a brand-new house
which could be transported into the United States and considered to be quite
spacious and elegant. Three bedrooms upstairs, two baths, living, dining
room, kitchen, extra room, a half bath downstairs. Now, come on: how is this
possible? How is it possible that the family owns two cars and they use both
cars daily to travel to town? How is that possible with gasoline prices what
they are in Hungary? The answer is simple: the salary they tell you about is
not the source of their real income. The real money comes from elsewhere.
But they pay taxes only on their "real income."

        It is a society which got used to finding ways of avoiding the law.
The Kadar regime I think actually didn't mind this black economy--perhaps
even welcomed it. It kept the population relatively satisfied. But old
habits die hard and the corruption which had been cultivated in the previous
regime is hard to get rid of. Especially during this transition period when
life is less constant and less comfortable than before. Elegant medical
professors are renting out their second or third apartments to foreigners
and tell them point blank: do you want receipt or not. If not, the price is
X; if you want receipt the price is Y. You can imagine that the price with
receipt is a great deal higher than without it. And this is the case
everywhere: whether it is a small job to fix your toilet or whether it is
large job of building a whole, new house. The bus driver doesn't give
tickets and pockets the fares; the postal employees steal the packages sent
from abroad; corruption everywhere. And if you tell ordinary people that
this corruption is Balkanic and is not worthy of a civilized nation, they
will tell you that they will be good boys and girls when, and only when, the
bigwigs will stop stealing. Oh, yes, but where shall we start? The political
leaders are no better than the population at large.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:31 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>> Perhaps one needs to look at what really needs to take place. First
>> the taxes (prices) have to be reduced and simultaneously the budget
>> (expenses) have to be reduced.
>
> For the umptieth time I am asking, in the hope that finally you'd hear
>it: what expenses would you be reducing? Remember how the relatively minor
>(compared to what would be needed to balance a significant tax cut)
>restrictions in the Bokros-package infuriated much of the population.
>Those cuts are already in place. What else could you take away?

        This is a very legitimate question which the Hungarian opposition
refuses to answer. A very interesting situation occurred in Hungary: a
socialist-liberal government was formed two years ago, which, after some
initial hesitation, began to face reality and began to dismantle the former
socialist welfare state. Not an enviable position for any government but
especially not for a socialist government which promised a "social
democracy." So, eventually a restrictive economic policy was introduced
(Bokros package). So what can a rightist opposition do in a case like that?
They have to use social demagoguery: the more they talk they more they sound
like socialists and criticize the socialist government from a basically
leftist position. They are outdoing any socialist, promising an apartment to
every newly wed person. Where does the money come from: well, they don't
care about this. Absolute irresponsibility and unfortunately a lot of people
fall for it.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Farkas Gabor:

> What is the challenge in heterosexual sex? Especially in the age of condoms,
> pills, etc.
Well, there are a couple... Love is always a challenge.
That's what the world's literature is all about.

(And not about homo-x inspiration in its 2/3 part, as
former Hungarian Culture Secretary, Fodor Gabor claims.)

> >And by this they choose to be free from any
> >human authority. They always have trouble
> >with authorities.
>
> As far as I know, only when the authorities go after them.

This behavior has deeper roots in the psyche. If your
little son finds a cockroach and tries to eat it, you
shout: 'Hey boy, leave it alone. It is an ugly bug!!'
Then your son gets the message, accepts your authority
in the question and would not eat the cockroach.

Or he would refuse to surrender to your claim, and we
are facing right away an authority problem. He may
despise your authority and eat the bug. You give him
a big slap on his face, and as a consequence, he may
develop resistance and a strong anti-authoritarian
character. He may end up in the gay community, when
they bash their parents and the Church and the moral
teaching all day long...
And they just eat the bug.                  Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:08 PM 8/25/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        It is a society which got used to finding ways of avoiding the law.
>The Kadar regime I think actually didn't mind this black economy--perhaps
>even welcomed it. It kept the population relatively satisfied. But old
>habits die hard and the corruption which had been cultivated in the previous
>regime is hard to get rid of. Especially during this transition period when
>life is less constant and less comfortable than before. Elegant medical
>professors are renting out their second or third apartments to foreigners
>and tell them point blank: do you want receipt or not. If not, the price is
>X; if you want receipt the price is Y. You can imagine that the price with
>receipt is a great deal higher than without it. And this is the case
>everywhere: whether it is a small job to fix your toilet or whether it is
>large job of building a whole, new house. The bus driver doesn't give
>tickets and pockets the fares; the postal employees steal the packages sent
>from abroad; corruption everywhere. And if you tell ordinary people that
>this corruption is Balkanic and is not worthy of a civilized nation, they
>will tell you that they will be good boys and girls when, and only when, the
>bigwigs will stop stealing. Oh, yes, but where shall we start? The political
>leaders are no better than the population at large.

I suggest to those who speak Hungarian an editorial in tomorrow's (Monday)
Nepszabadsag, titled Chinese Shoes, typical of the situation.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:08 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Zoli Sz. wrote:
> If your
>little son finds a cockroach and tries to eat it, you
>shout: 'Hey boy, leave it alone. It is an ugly bug!!'
>Then your son gets the message, accepts your authority
>in the question and would not eat the cockroach.
>
>Or he would refuse to surrender to your claim, and we
>are facing right away an authority problem. He may
>despise your authority and eat the bug. You give him
>a big slap on his face

I am sorry, I never slapped my son on his face (or anywhere else).

>, and as a consequence, he may
>develop resistance and a strong anti-authoritarian
>character. He may end up in the gay community, when
>they bash their parents and the Church and the moral
>teaching all day long...

As far as I know my son is not gay. But if he were, he is still my son. If
children always followed their parents' advice (orders?), society would be
stuck somewhere very far behind.

Even moral teachings changed somewhat during the centuries. Otherwise the
Inquisition would still torture those who did not accept the dogma as
interpreted then.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Collective Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Re: Liptak's Collective Rights Essay

It is gratifying to see that Bela Liptak has read our recently published
article in the Fletcher Forum of World Affairs on collective rights which
we sent him. He has summarized our main points very well.

The unedited copy is available as:

Csaba K. Zoltani and Frank Koszorus, Jr. Group Rights Defuse Tensions.
The Fletcher Forum of World Affairs, Vol. 20:2, Summer/Fall 1996.

CSABA K ZOLTANI
+ - Hungarian email pointer (Version: 0.90, Last-modified: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by
John Horvath >
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> idol-worshipping Euroweenie writes:

>Heidegger is rooted so deeply in the European culture
>that we don't need, thank you very much, culturally
>challanged advices from over the sea.
>
>As about faults, well, everybody may have faults.
>Even a Heidegger. But putting him and his philosophy
>on the flames of a self-indulged entellectuel witch-
>hunt is a different story.

First of all, this will be the third or fourth time I will point out to
you that I am a serious student of Heidegger's philosophy. If America is
so "culturally challenged," then what's a provincial horse's ass like you
doing here taking up valuable space in one of our public universities? As
much as I appreciate Heidegger's sophisticated phenomenology, I have some
real problems with the political manifestation of his philosophy in his
own life. Here's Heidegger on technology, for instance:

"Agriculture is today a motorized food industry, in essence the same as
the manufacture of corpses in gas chambers and extermination camps, the
same as the blockade and starvation of countries, the same as the
manufacture of atomic bombs."

I can't think of a better response to this post-war piece of barbarism
than to quote Richard Wolin ("The Politics of Being: The Political Thought
of Martin Heidegger," Columbia University Press, 1990): "That Heidegger
can in good conscience equate mechanized agriculture with the genocidal
politics of the Nazis is not only a monumental non sequitur in historical
reasoning; it suggests a fundamental incapacity for both moral and
theoretical discernment." (Wolin, p. 168)

>
>> Until then, you'll remain an idol-worshipping little weenie. Got that?
>> Sam Stowe
>One day you may have a chance to understand what kind
>of idols you worship. The American culture is more
>like idol-worshipping than the European.
>
>I'm just over celebrating 11 hundred years of my people
>in Europe.

Would you include those Hungarians of the Jewish faith as being among
"your people"? How about those Hungarians who are gay or lesbian? Uh huh.
Didn't think so.

>And in Hungary it is a reason to celebrate.
>In the U.S. you may celebrate the birthday of Mickey
>Mouse, as comparable?

Mickey, at the very least, has much higher standards of personal conduct,
intellectual rigor and orthographic precision than you. You're not even
much of a goodwill ambassador for Hungary. And what a horrible hypocrite
you are -- looking down your nose at America while feeding at the trough!
You'd better thank the heavens above that we are a fairly tolerant,
easy-going bunch here in the bad, old United States.
Sam Stowe


"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Re: About dogs. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I wrote in my answer to E.Balogh:

>>Thanks Eva for the nice biology lesson, however let me ask something. Have
>>you ever seen male/female dogs 'amusing themselves' while the opposing sex
>>is actually present on the scene and 'accident' would be allowed to happen?
>>Also have you seen male/female dogs being 'urged' by the smell of another
>>dog with the same sex? If not, your example is simple the analogy of the
>>human 'prison homosexuality'.

I just wanted to pinpoint the weakness of Eva's arguments. Her observations
did not prove the existance of that homosexuality what they (Eva&Joe&etc)
talked about. That is all I wanted. However I got some answer full with
cinism and anger (as I interpreted it):

>Interestingly enough, I have seen the behavior you outlined below. Of
>course, it was in Kentucky, where everything is messed up and somewhat
>backwards (where sick people joke that incest was a fine family activity)

It just confirmed my feeling that this is a subject that you cannot argue
about objectively. You are considered good body if you accept some axioms
(there are a lots of such axiom not only about homosexuality) if not, you
became a redneck moron. 'Velunk vagy ellenunk.' This is true for the
'enemy', too ( i.e those who are against the acceptance of homosexuality)
The ugliest of such a setup is the 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life' war. They are
talking about nice ideas 'defence of right to live' or 'defence of free
choice of women', but in fact they mean the sexual life of other people.

J.Zs

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