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1 Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind)  581 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: 80-YEAR SECRECY STAMP (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Concrete Poetry -- (Or What a Wally Thinks This Is) (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Talking about movies ... (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: 80-YEAR SECRECY STAMP (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
8 Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind)  1520 sor     (cikkei)
9 translation help!! (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: *** RANDI *** #SRIHOLM A AOL.COM (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
11 orvendek (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (nothing to do with (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
14 irjatok (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Ania Oleksik wrote:

> On 8 Dec 1996 21:29:01 -0800, BeeJay > wrote:
> (Michel Couzijn wrote:)
> >> I am an individual who considers himself part of a
> >> group and acknowledge there are some rules which apply to group
> >> membership. One of these unwritten rules, accepted by quite some
> >> people is that you don't call each other names when you suffer from a
> >> lack of arguments. I reminded us of that rule. The punishment for not
> >> playing by this rule is losing your status of serious discussant.
> >
> >Lack of arguments? Nonsense. By the way, for your information: the
> >unwritten rules you're talking about don't seem to be valid in
> >soc.culture.netherlands. 
> Maybe they're not valid on the moon. I don't care. All I care for is
> that they are maintained in my correspondence. I am not responsible
> for the standards others wish to live and mail by.

O, so why make a big fuss about it anyway???
> >And since when do *you* set standards for others how to respond?
> Since a long time. Since there is no higher institutions than us, poor
> individuals, setting the standars for our communicative behavior. No
> one has more AND no one has less rights to do this than I have - as
> long as I find sufficient support from others.

You don't set my standards, dear, that's up to me. There's no way that
you're are going to tell me how to respond in this thread, forget it.
You have the right to say you don't like my response, but that's it.
Otherwise it's up to me how to respond.

> >And may I remind you that I feel that Van Dijk's post was insulting
> >towards Americans?
> Yes you may. You have just done that.
> > Do you actually see that?
> Playing the 'murdered innocence' is not your strongest point (I get
> personal here for having a lack of arguments.)

Hohoho, I truly think that you forget that I reacted to Van Dijk's post
because I was utterly pissed. No hard feelings otherwise.

> >> >> be frustrated? He's just hot-tempered, and he may be wrong. But
> >> >> there's no reason to attribute any vile motives to his opinion. Can
> >> >> you remain reasonable?
> >> >
> >> >He was hot-tempered, you can say that. I responded in a reasonable
> >> >fashion (i.e. I could have been far more aggressive), and I have the
> >> >right to respond the way I did, so don't complain.
> >> 
> >> Yes I will complain. I don't understand your 'right' to respond the
> >> way you did. Can you read me my rights? Do I have a right to complain
> >> about your forbidding me to complain? Can you give me the URL-code
> >> to a list of rights that you and I have?
> >
> >I have the right to respond the way I did. I will use the same cheap way
> >out as you: it's an unwritten rule.
> Why follow my bad example? Have nothing better to offer?
> > Or perhaps it is not: it's called freedom of speech here in the US. 
> And it's called impoliteness, disrespect and utter barbary here in the
> rest of the world. Hide behind your iron curtain made of excuses.

Ehm, don't you think Van Dijk's post was impolite and disrespectful? Why
do I get your critique, and not he? Because I defend the US? I reject your
use of the words "utter barbary", that's out of the ordinary.

> We don't have freedom of speech here. We are bound by our civilization
> and social behaviour. Sorry of this is different for you.

The Netherlands? Civilization??? Hahahahahaha!!! But read on, I know
what I'm talking about.

> >As I do acknowledge that Van Dijk is
> >allowed to dump his insulting bullshit on the Internet; I only hope that
> >he will realize that he has to think twice before exaggerating to the
> >extend that he's actually attributing vile motives to American politics
> >with regard to international security.
> >Don't you see that, Couzijns? 
> You have just spelt my name wrong. "Can you actually read?"
> Because you seem keen on convincing my just how much Jeroen has
> insulted the poor American people, and because I like you so much, I
> have recollected just what Jeroen said about the U.S.:
> >USA is backrupt [and does not] pay its contributions to the international or

But still existing, and I dare say that the US should pay its contribution
*after* the UN has recollected itself; it's a mess, administratively and
also, as a result, financially. I think it is just fair of the US to ask
the UN *first* to clean up its act before the US will pay. The Netherlands
should do that too (;-))). I also refer to Marek's reply here with regard 
to the use of the word "bankrupt".

> >Those former superpowers are timebombs.  

Mmmm, Russia, China? But in case of the US... what a bullshit. 

> >The Americans and CNN think that they are the rulers of the world

Not happily, though. The general feeling among the people here is that
the US should withdraw from *expensive* international peacekeeping efforts
as long as others can take care of that. Just because...

> >The americans have enough problems backhome....

that should be taken care of.
That's something Van Dijk apparently (and you, I take it; correct me if
I'm wrong) don't know or refuse to acknowledge.

> >The americans livings standards is only good for the companies and the rich 

That's nonsense. No other words for that.

> >The most americans are living in their self made dream of drugs and crime. 

There's a lot of drugs and crime, but here it is suggested that the
Americans don't realize that themselves. Read any American newspaper, or
watch the News on TV, and you can only come to the conclusion that they
damn well know what's going on in their own backyard. 

> >The USA have a vote right membership, but don't have the money to pay its co

I think the US will have the money if they want to.
Nicely recollected, but the context in which Van Dijk put it was
definitely different. 

> And I really have a hard time imagining why an American would be
> insulted. Are you easily insulted, Bee? In that case you don't seem to
Depends. Not by you, in any case.

> apply the same rules to others as you wish others to apply to you.
> Seems to me that Jeroen is mostly pissed that big mouth America
> (oops.. here *I* go insulting - you really have to walk tiptoe for Big
> Brother] does not pay its UN membership fee. And that he does not
> regard the U.S. as a very prosperous state, role model for other
> countries seeking protection (that's what it was about, remember?)
> He clearly sees the distance between the American Dream and the
> American Reality (serious drug and poverty problems) from which many
> Americans suffer (that is NOT the same as 'participate in').

But since I participate in American daily life, read the newspaper and
keep up with what's happening around me, I dare say I'm qualified to
criticize what somebody else, who doesn't know what he's talking about,
and certainly is not able to put things in perspective, dumps here. Once
agian (how many times would you like me to repeat this???), nobody denied
that there's a drugs and poverty problem in the US. 

> You lose your case of the insulting Jeroen, I'm afraid. I wonder why
> you had such a strong tendency to interprete his words so negatively.
> Is it something in you, Bee?

I don't think so; Van Dijk was showing off in a grossly exaggerating and
generalizing way that at least I consider insulting. Therefore you be
referred to his initial post. Had definitely a different tone from what
you want me to believe.

> >> This is not about rights, Bee, this is about rules on how we should
> >> treat each other as discussants. If I think you are unreasonable (by
> >> attributing vile motives to Jeroen's opinions}, I will tell you that.
> >
> >Fine, you tell me that (that's your "unwritten" right).
> I am glad you understood. Do something with it.

You tell me whatever you want, it's up to me whether I will do something
with it or not.

> >> The idea that you could have been more aggressive (i.e. transgress the
> >> borders more than you did) does not make your response reasonable,
> >> alas.
> >
> >Well, we will never agree on this one, I'm afraid.
> Well, what could be the reason for this? Must be stubbornness from my
> side, since you are all flexibility.
Thank you! I like compliments (;-)))))).

> [Talking about huge snips!]
> >> >My degree doesn't matter; my opinion matters here, and it's ridiculous to
> >> >bring this up. My degree is none of your business anyway.
> >> 
> >> No. But I made it my business. If you don't want me to, and/or want to
> >> hide your degree from us (yeah, I know, from me, but in doing so
> >> you'll hide it from the rest of our audience...) that's fine with me.
> >
> >Now I do have a question, off topic really (has nothing to do with NATO
> >Dwarfism) but is it me or is is it just a habit of the Dutch?
> I am not the Dutch.
> > I mean, a week ago or so somebody felt compelled to publish his
> >grades in
> >soc.culture.netherlands, apparently to support his case
> He is also not the Dutch.
> >and now another one is asking me to make public my degree
> Even together we are still not the Dutch (though it IS a small
> country, I agree.)
> >as if that would change anything about the validity of my point? Degrees
> >don't matter in any discussion, just opinions. 
> Agreed. What makes you believe I determine the value of your post on
> the basis of your title (if any)? It is the other way around: I
> thought I could comment on your academic title on the basis of what
> you wrote. Perfectly legitimate, I would say. I hope the subject

From your post I just got that impression. I personally am not interested
in anyone's degree, because that simply does not matter in a discussion.
Since I have seen this degree-and-grades stuff before in SCN, it started
to irritate me.

> 'academic title' is not taboo for you. I tells something (read this
> word again: SOMEthing) about how clever you are. PhD's cannot be
> bought for fifteen bucks, you know. But then again, there are lots of
> PhD's with silly thoughts and no feeling for cynicism. 
> Take me as an example.
Your words, not mine (;-).

> >Or are you also infected with that
> >typical calvinistic "holier-than-thou-attitude", that moral superiority that
> >almost everybody seems to embrace in Holland? 
> You must know quite a lot of Dutch people to make this generalization.
> Congratulations!
> >I fear the day that I have to go there....
> So how do you know us 'so well'?
> I believe you may be pleasantly surprised here in The Netherlands.
> Nice country, nice people, we pay our international fees, we take up
> lots of migrants, poverty and harddrug addiction are extremely low,
> same as violent crimes. But we DO like a strong discussion from time
> to time.

Hahaha, I apparently fooled you here. I am Dutch!!! Lived there for more
than 24 years, and I'm about to return, to my dislike.
And above all, the Netherlands is overorganized, individuals don't count
because you belong to a group, the government is constantly breathing in
your neck, there's too much social control, etc, etc. And the people are
rude! Don't talk about civilization, please. And I haven't even brought up
the behaviour of the Dutch in Indonesia during the colonial days, and the
fact that many Dutch people didn't seem to be disturbed by the deportation
of Jews in World War II. But let's not go off topic...

> >[Snip]
> Cheers.
> >> >> >As far as I know the US are the most popular
> >> >> >destination for migrants. It is also the most accessible destination i
> >> >> >the Western world, as far as I know. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> Yes. Time to wonder if you know enough to back up this assertion. If
> >> >> not, it is empty. Everyone thinks his/her country is the most
> >> >> accessible and takes up too many migrants. BTW, shall we relate
> >> >> numbers to size of the country here? Or do you think this is an
> >> >> irrelevant factor?
> >> >
> >> >Ahum, now be careful, because there's plenty of information on the Net
> >> >supporting my case. For a start I would advice you to go to the Website o
> >> >the U.S. Dept. of Justice (http://www.usdoj.gov/), and then select the
> >> >Immigration and Naturalization Service. You can trust that
> >> >information, believe me.
> >> 
> >> I doubt whether the information presented there (next time be more
> >> specific which information you refer to - the Imm. & Nat. Service
> >> presents quite a lot!) supports your case. The average number of
> >> immigrants allowed to the U.S. is 800.000 a year from 1993 to 1995,
> >                                    ^^^^^^^
> >Oh, that's funny. You forget to add that 500000 people a year (in
> >*addition* to the 800000 who were granted permanent residency) became
> >American citizens (many of them through marriage, which in the case of the
> >Netherlands does not guarantee citizenship, let alone permanent
> >residency; I've heard some really sad stories about that), and a 100000
> >refugees. Have to add though that many new citizens already have a Green
> >Card.
> That's why I asked you to select and present the data yourself if you
> use them as arguments. It helps to avoid misunderstandings. 

Ahem, if you could find the 800000 figure, you could also have seen on the
very same page the other numbers. You're not a child.
> >> they say, showing a sharp decrease by more than 20 %. The U.S. (9300
> >> km2) have 260 million inhabitants, which is a meagre 28 inhabitants
> >> per square km. To compare, The Netherlands (41.000 km2) have 15
> >> million inhabitants and live with 452 inhabitants per square km (16
> >> times more) and nevertheless take up 30.000 immigrants a year
> >                                       ^^^^^^
> >But how many of them will be guaranteed citizenship; how many refugees
> >does the Netherlands absorb?
> >Anyway, per 1000 inhabitants the Netherlands grant 2 persons permanent
> >residency per year, whereas the US is still granting 3 persons per 1000
> >permanent residency, about 50% more than the Netherlands. 
> Three kinds of lies. Learn about them. Disraeli. 
Oh, we're getting unfriendly here. There's actually no lie in the numbers
I give, dear.

> I said you should relate that number to the size of the country - not
> merely its number of inhabitants. Would you say that a 1000 km2
> country with 1000 inhabitants can absorb as many refugees as a 10.000
> km2 country with the same number (1000) of inhabitants? No. That's why
> I related it to the density of the population. That's a combined
> statistic, agree, but not too hard to understand.

Here you hit the nail yourself, Couzijn. I was talking about
accessibility, whereas you seem only to present data why your country
(which unfortunately also happens to be my country) can't be as
accessible, and not accessability itself.

> With 452 people per km2, we're pretty filled up here. Physical
> borders, you see? Compare that to the U.S.

That's why the US is more accessible? There are many other things to be
considered when it comes to immigration, not just size of a country.

> >You really only
> >achieve that with less stringent immigration requirements and thus the US
> >is more accessible. Don't you think?
> No I don't think so. See above argument. And what's more, the U.S. has
> a very different and highly relevant history: it is a melting pot of
> immigrants and thus has many familiary links with other parts of the
> world. That's why so many people are attracted to the U.S. as well:
> because their family is already there or has been there for a long
> time. You cannot do in 1996 as if this differenence in status quo of
> the years 1995 and before does not exist.

Oops, we will not agree on the accessability issue. But that there is a
difference between the past and now is true. Although it has been
predicted in the press here that the immigration figures for the year 1996
will be way up.

> >> (1993-1995). Would you still say that the U.S. is the most accessible
> >> country, related to size? 
> >                      ^^^^
> >Population density, you mean. As I show above, that depends on how you
> >calculate the rate of immigration. I do not include population density,
> >because I really wonder to what extend that influences the immigration
> >proces. What you say is that for what Holland can have, they do a good
> >job, but its immigration policy must be more stringent in order to keep
> >it that way. We're getting a little closer to what I mean here, by the
> >way. 
> >I would like to know from you how many applications for permanent
> >residency/citizenship the Netherlands receive per year (let's say 1995),
> >in order to find out what percentage of applicants really gets what they
> >want.
> Now I really have better things to do. You asserted U.S. was the most
> accessible - you collect the proof. Relate it to density and see your
> proof melt as snow in the sunshine.
Bullshit. See my previous answer.
Mmmm, afraid that in the long run I might be right, Couzijn? Pretty weak
of you not to provide me with those figures, because if we could say that
the percentage of applicants that really will be granted permanent
residency is higher in the US or the Netherlands.... well, I guess you
understand what I'm aiming at.
For your information: 1 out of 11 Americans is *foreign* born (in L.A.
County alone, 1 out of 3 is foreign born). Just a figure for you to think

> >> I have heard that Germany was even more
> >> accessible than The Netherlands, though I don't have precise numbers.
> >> My case is anyway to say that too many more people believe their
> >> country to be the most accessible in the world. 
> >
> >Forget the Netherlands, when it comes to accessability.
> Why? I live here. I won't forget about MY COUNTRY (chest up high)
> And though the rules have become stricter in the past two years, and
> though the liberals (that is, RIGHT wing in Dutch politics) fight it
> with all their might, I still believe we allow comparable many
> immigrants access to our paradise under the sun... errr rain.

Yikes, you're nationalist! 

> >> >> >> >>The most americans are living in their
> >> >> >> >>self made dream of drugs and crime. 
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >You shouldn't give yourself away this fast ...
> >> >> >> >Any other jokes you might have, ing. Jeroen? 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> Inadequate reply. Jeroen may exaggerate, but his argument
> >> >> >> is valid that the U.S. has a VERY SERIOUS drug and poverty
> >> >> >> problem. Also when compared to countries without capitalism
> >> >> >> as its bible.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Ahem, I personally think that Joe was responding to Van Dijk's
> >> >> >*exaggeration*.
> >> >> 
> >> >> I agree with you ! (hooray) But that is exactly my point: Joe
> >> >> addresses merely the exaggeration (I stated so) but not the argument
> >> >> itself. That's why I call his reply inadequate (I avoided the word
> >> >> 'cheap).
> >> >      
> >> >Aha, but to what extend did he exaggerate? His generalizations were out
> >> >of the ordinary. I can understand an American citizen would feel insulted
> >> >by such crap, and I therefore understand that Joe reacted that way.
> >> 
> >> Yes, and once an American citizen has recollected him/herself, he/she
> >> writes an adequate response. I am still waiting. The underlying
> >> argument (The U.S. have a serious drug and poverty problem) is still
> >> valid  The question was whether the U.S. is 'a good master to run to
> >
> >Nobody claimed that the US did *not* have a drugs and crime problem, and
> >otherwise I really think you should take note of the fact that it was the
> >way Van Dijk posed his problem that pissed people off. 
> See above. In the course of argument, you have become more
> exaggerating regarding Van Dijk than Van Dijk ever was regarding the
> U.S..


> >> once Russia has become weaker as a protector of middle European
> >> countries' (we almost forgot about that, didn't we?) and Jeroen tried
> >> in his way to point out that the U.S. does not offer merely beds of
> >> roses and mountains of gold and that maybe the middle European
> >> countries should not unconditionally seek protection of the U.S. or
> >> look at the U.S. as a role model..
> >
> >Middle European countries should do whatever they want to do. But frankly
> >I don't think it's wrong to seek protection under the NATO.
> Me neither ! We agree ! (open can of beer)
> >By the way, wasn't it the US that had to be called in to initiate a peace
> >proces in the Balkan??? 
> Acquiring peace in former Yugoslavia has been a very complex matter. I
> think it is a gross oversimplification to believe that it just took
> simple participation of the U.S. to make the peace process going. The
> U.S. simply threw in their weight (and I am happy that they did) but
> this is more a matter of size (and a single negotiator) than of
> quality. Anyway peace is still far, far away in former Yugoslavia.
> 'Only' the bombing has stopped. Temporarily.

You forget to add though, that the EU was hopelessly divided on
Yugoslavia, and therefore didn't seem to be able to achieve anything
there. It was not until after the US had thrown in its weight, things
started to move in the right direction; and the EU followed like a
slave... But yes, the situation is far from ideal, that's obvious. 
> >In other words, when it comes to security, there's not much else to look for
> >besides the US. Do you know any better alternative?
> Yes, call me naive, but I still believe in the possibility of a UN
> super police force. The U.S. can participate, of course, I would love
> them to, but they really should pay their contribution in time.

See the above. I only hope the UN could regain something of its

> Michel Couzijn
> Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Los Angeles, California.

+ - Re: 80-YEAR SECRECY STAMP (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
CLARY Olivier > wrote:
| In article >  (CLARY Oli
vier) writes:
| >Here is the explanation from Népszabadság, 1996.X.10.:
| Most látom, hogy milyen karikatúra volt másnap az újságban:
| cím: "Jogérzék"
| (a rajzon: három rendőr, a jegyzeteit nézegeti egy idősebb rendőr az asztalná
| közepén ül egy rosszul borotvált alak, bilinccsel a kezén, szemébe a lámpa:)
| - Mert akkor én most mehetnék is haza: nem lehetne ezt a jegyzőkönyvet 80
|   évre titkosítani?
| :-)


There is your  media attention from the supposedly
socialist. controlled press.
Another note, I think that this COULD be legitimately in the
natiional security interets of Hungary not to disclose the
information on a) how and 2) how much oil we buy especially
since most fo this comes from the russians and 3) most of
this comes through arrangements made with the russians for
their debt to us that was negotiated when they pulled out.
I am not sure it's legit, but I could see an effect on
national security.

+ - Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (Ania
Oleksik) wrote:

> On 4 Dec 1996 01:35:22 GMT,  () wrote:
> >>The americans livings standards is only good for the
> >>companies and the rich people. 
> >
> >I wonder why then everybody wants to come here.  They should really talk
> >to you first.
> By far, the rest of the world would NOT want to live in the U.S.
> Take me as an example.

Please lower your dosage of decriminalized heroin, it's affecting your 
thinking. One of *the* hot button political topics in the US is what to 
do with all the illegal immigrants. The immigration police are swamped 
with the caseload and Congress is gearing up an investigation into the 
possible tampering with official statistics by Clinton officials in 
order to hide the magnitude of the immigration problem. Of course if 
we weren't so government heavy immigration wouldn't be a problem but 
that's a completely different conversation. 

> >>The most americans are living in their
> >>self made dream of drugs and crime. 
> >
> >You shouldn't give yourself away this fast ...
> >Any other jokes you might have, ing. Jeroen? 
> Inadequate reply. Jeroen may exaggerate, but his argument
> is valid that the U.S. has a VERY SERIOUS drug and poverty
> problem. Also when compared to countries without capitalism
> as its bible.

Unfortunately, the poverty progress that had been made for almost a 
hundred years of steady, incremental reduction in poverty rates ended 
three years after Lyndon Johnson declared "war on poverty". over thirty 
years later and the poverty rates still haven't budged. Socialism 
doesn't work here either. 

Romania, America, it doesn't matter where socialism is tried, it always 
produces increased misery and an outstanding propaganda machine for 
even more government. 


The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: A post-election edition
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.
+ - Re: Concrete Poetry -- (Or What a Wally Thinks This Is) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Wally, as you still could not comprehend, here it is again:
If you post it anyway, don't litter my mailbox with your trash!

Poetician1 > wrote:
>I quoted that poets are liars. 
That does not save your butt. You still are not a reliable source.

>The truth always knocks me out. However your so-called analogy indicates
>your incompoetence as compared to my poetency.

> Too bad you remain unpublished and likely always will.
Too bad you remain unpublished in my field, and likely always will.
Too bad you remain in darkness and likely you always will.
>>Do you really want to start all over again?
+ - Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  () writes:

> Karel Stokkermans > wrote:

> >No.  So?  What do liberal laws w.r.t. drug *usage* have to do with the exten
> >of drug *abuse*?
> I guess once you make it legal, *abuse* becomes a simple *use*, eh?

No, of course not.  Abuse doesn't imply illegality, at least not in my
definition.  Or wouldn't you agree that one can abuse alcohol?  Moreover,
not all drug usage is legal in the Netherlands, but I'm not planning
to educate you on that issue.
> But I think this topic has very little relavency to most of the news
> groups it's propogated, so how about removing them from future postings?

Feel free.
-- Karel Stokkermans, RISC-Linz, Schloss Hagenberg, Austria, Europa
 -- email: 
  -- url: http://info.risc.uni-linz.ac.at:70/1/people/kstokker
   -- rsssf: http://info.risc.uni-linz.ac.at:70/0h/misc-info/rsssf/nersssf.html
"O hoe vergeefs / des doelmans hand / zich strekte naar de bal    [  21-6-88,  
 die 'een minuut / voor tijd de Duitse / doellijn kruiste..."     [ J. Deelder 
+ - Re: Talking about movies ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

HipCat wrote:
> Yes, the Madonna movie was filmed in Budapest; and yes, you are
> forgiven!!! <g>
> HipCat
> --
> Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/Only portions of Evita wer
e filmed in Budapest; most of it -after some 
political difficulties were cleared out of the way (for ex. Menem's 
permission to film Madonna's singing "Dont cry for me Argentina" from the 
balcony of the Casa Rosada, scenes of mass demonstration of the 
descamisados, etc.)- were filmed in Argentina). While at the beginning of 
the project the Argentines vehemently opposed the "Madonna version" (i.e. 
based on the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical), eventually they grew tired of 
the subject. Menem himself, as the leader of the Peronist party, 
eventually received Madonna (who, while in Argentina, behaved impeccably) 
at his private residence.
Sincerely, Laszlo
+ - Re: 80-YEAR SECRECY STAMP (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Zoltan Pasztor, 
>Istvan Nikolits, minister responsible for secret services, has placed an
>80-year stamp of secrecy on data related to the so-called oilgate affair,

I think it was not a wise decision, because the next gov't (lets hope not
these once again) can repeal the secrecy and bring those guys to trial.
Then, they will not be able not hide behind their MP immunity. Now, they
would be untouchable (gov't majority would not repeal their immunity).

+ - Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/07/04
Version: 1.50
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days


     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle [press review]
2.3  "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulletin]
2.4  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe
5.4  Hungarian radio and television broadcasts available worldwide

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

- - ------------------------------


 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is mostly
concerned with resources freely available netwide.
 See also the sections under 2. below which list services that carry
occasional English material, some regularly, besides their primarily
Hungarian language content.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>. It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived by
HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://www.hix.com/usenet/>;. A similar archive is to be found at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>; (see 1.8 below). For www/e-mail
gateways see <http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html>; or the
archives mentioned above.

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
For accessing groups in the international hierarchy from abroad via
gopher the gateway in the Netherlands may be better:
<gopher://g4nn.cca.vu.nl:4320/1g4nn%20group/soc.culture.magyar>.  The
hun.* groups are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS')
and they are also readable under <http://www.hix.com/usenet/>; as well
as <http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>;.
 HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar and
hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>. A similar gatewaying service
is also available for soc.culture.magyar via
<mailto:> (see 1.8 below), as well as via
<mailto:> (see also 2.3).

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.7 'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname. Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address. For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY. You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL. SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software. For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

 The Hungarian-American List is an unmoderated discussion forum to
promote communications between people with interest in modern Hungarian
culture and Hungarian cultural heritage. The list brings you, among
other things, news items originating from OMRI, CET, the Hungarian
media and several other sources, that might be of interest for
Hungarians and Americans. The WWW Home Page of the Hungarian-American
list is <http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/>;. Subscribe by
<mailto:>, using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY. The Hungarian Usenet group -
soc.culture.magyar is available for Hungarian-American List subscribers
via email. You can subscribe to this news-to-mail-to-news service by
<mailto:>, using no Subject, in the body of the
letter write SUBSCRIBE SOC-CULTURE-MAGYAR. The WWW address of the
interactive soc.culture.magyar archive is

 (Notice that this Maryland-based list is distinct from the older
LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus - mentioning
'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one! Note also that
the Majordomo server syntax is different from LISTSERV for many of
their commands - see the help document sent by the server.)

- - ------------------------------


- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Nemzet Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulleti

 [This section is as provided by <mailto:>]

(1) (E-mail news bulletins)
        "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap
        E-mail news digest, Mon-Fri, 25-55k. Comprises East-European
        regional news (by OMRI, in English), excerpts from Hungarian
        press (in Hungarian), and reports on newsworthy items (press,
        events, etc., mostly in Hungarian and occasionally in English)

        www:  http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(2) (usenet e-mail digest)
        Digest of "Soc.Culture.Magyar" by means of e-mail bulletin, filtering
        out all lists and postings beyond size 8k.

        www: http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(3) (www/e-mail gateway)
        E-mail message is acknowledged and posted to "Soc.Culture.Magyar",
        with your address and your subject-definition.
        Simply send contributions to  

        Gateway maintained under direction of:

(5) Hungarian Papers on WWW (liberal to conservative)

        (a)     168 ORA

        (b)     KELET-MAGYARORSZAG

        (c)     UJVIDEKI NAPLO

        (d)     DEMOKRATA

        (e)     NEMZET

        (f)     MAGYAR ELET


        (g)     24. ORA

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.4  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

- - ------------------------------


 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like WWW
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- - ------------------------------
Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 See the separate document "Hungarian WWW information FAQ",
available at <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/web>; as well
as in the Usenet archives.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://www.hix.com>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of www.hix.com are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

- - ------------------------------


 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs


 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

- - ------------------------------


 This information is also available on

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest

Members of the Szeged University Association

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs

University of Veszprem

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://www.hix.com/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://www.hix.com/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@www.hix.com' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see, containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters: No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'. The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see " denotes umlaut! The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.) Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.


 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity. PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense. ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>. Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.] [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es. HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk


   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:


where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal. Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal ) MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically. Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4). ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files. etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform. hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>. drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source for conversion between text and RTF
(Rich Text Format), character sets ISO 8852/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin
2) and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically, RTF or text as well as used character set. The outbound
format is the same as the inbound format, the program changes only the
character set. In other words, the program does not convert from RTF ot
text or from text to RTF. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS, & UNIX and
other platforms supporting ANSI C. hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated. MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://www.hix.com/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see,
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided. ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above. hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

- - ------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
- - ------------------------------
Subject: 5.4  Hungarian radio and television broadcasts available
 See the separate document "Hungarian broadcast information FAQ",
available at <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/broadcast>; as well
as in the Usenet archives.

- - ------------------------------


(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Saghi-Szabo Gotthard <mailto:>, section 1.8
Toth, Joseph   <mailto:>, section 2.3
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors (with the exception of the
independently maintained section 2.3) are the responsibility of Zoli -
who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just comments
readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

- - ------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists). The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
redistribute substantial portions without contacting the maintainer.
 Since February 14, 1996 this document is authenticated 
by my secure public-key encrypted electronic signature 
(see <http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp>; for details), 
 the public key for which is shown in the WWW link 
and is also attached to the end of the text available via
 'finger '!
 Unauthorized publishing in off-line media - such as printed, CD-ROM or 
magnetic databases - is explicitly prohibited!  

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/07/04
Version: 1.50
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

- - --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

Version: 2.6.2

+ - translation help!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


I'm studying Hungarian and need help with some sentences.
Could anyone please help me??

Nem unatkozik, reggelt'öl estig jön-megy, t'argyal, lapkiad'okba j'ar.
Rengeteg dolga van, nincs egyetlen szabad perce sem.

The ' before a vowel means a long vowel.
Grateful for any help
+ - Re: *** RANDI *** #SRIHOLM A AOL.COM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

+ - orvendek (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Igazabol nem is tudom, hogy hogyan is cimezzem, igy nem cimezem. Nagyon
orvendtem, amikor megtalaltam Magyarorszagot. Egy cserediak vagyok az
Egyesult Allamokban. E-mail cimem : 
+ - Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (nothing to do with (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 > wrote:
>Gabor Barsai > wrote:
>>Wasn't it Jim Brady, the SecState under the Bushman, who said that "we want t
>Maybe you meant Jim Baker from Texas?  But it was mainly Lawrence
>Eagleburger who acted as Yugoslavia's agent of influence.

Yes, I got those guys mixed up. Still, I remember watching Baker on TV saying 
those word (standing next to Milo, I think, after one of their meetings).

+ - Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 07-dec-96 19:56:22, danubius wrote the following about Re: Antw: Navo is a p
olitical dwarf  (was Re: Thanks Hungary):
> Robert-Jan Veldhuizen  > wrote:
>>That's just what the US government wants you to believe, so that they can
>>continue using their power in the UN/Security Council and let other
>>countries pay for it.
>>I guess you forgot how eager Bush was to use the UN/Security Council when
>>they got into a conflict with Iraq.

> And you think that Bush would not have acted without a UN in existence,
> huh?

I didn't say that. I think Bush would've been much more reluctant then, because
it could well have turned into a total war in the Middle East, with all sorts o
disasters as a result.

So, I say that if the USA thinks the UN is "flushing money down the toilet" (or
whatever), then they should take the consequences and step out of it. Otherwise

+ - irjatok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sziasztok !!!

   Itt ultem a gep elott es gondoltam megnezem mit talalok
Magyarorszagnal. Hat talaltam itt minden, ami "szem szajnak ingere". Az
Egyesult Allamokban vagyok, mint cserediak. Ha valaki gondolja igazan
irhatna nekem egy kicsit Koszi! Sziasztok. E-mail cimem : 
+ - Re: Antw: Navo is a political dwarf (was Re: Thanks Hu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 10 Dec 1996, Karel Stokkermans wrote:

> In article >, 
> BeeJay > writes:
> > On 6 Dec 1996  wrote:
> [...]
> > > Yeap!  I also found it ironic for somebody from Holland to point fingers
> > > at US and blaming us for major drug addiction.  Is there a more liberal
> > > developed country with regards to drug usage than Holland?
> > Don't think so...
> No.  So?  What do liberal laws w.r.t. drug *usage* have to do with the extent
> of drug *abuse*?  Relative numbers for drug addiction are higher in the State
> than in the Netherlands.  And how did the prohibition help curbing alcohol
> abuse?  It merely enriched the mafia.

You're absolutely right, Karel (the same Karel as in rec.sports.soccer?).