Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 771
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-08-27
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Komondorok, Kuvaszok, es Pulik (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
3 Sophistry & disrespect - (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Sophistry (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
11 Morals: don't play that game! (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Morals: don't play that game! (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Sophistry (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
17 Well, what's the 'good' choice? (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: one final question (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Well, what's the 'good' choice? (mind)  86 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: one final question (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Well, what's the 'good' choice? (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
25 child molestors!! (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Sophistry (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
33 cockroaches, Version II (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: Sophistry (mind)  80 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Sophistry (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Sophistry (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: child molestors!! (mind)  137 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
45 Re: Sophistry (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (fwd) (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
47 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
48 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  70 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Komondorok, Kuvaszok, es Pulik (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

All this discussion about dogs rekindled a long desire of mine to get
a Hungarian dog. Never had the space or the time for one, but now
there is a fence in the back, some nice woods, and the kid is almost
10, so here I go, dreaming again.

I like the looks of Hungarian dogs. Read a lot about them. They are
described as strong-willed, hard-to-handle, imperious, aloof, and
difficult to groom. But as with reading ABOUT a city, personal
experiences are much more meaningful. There seems to be some expertise
within the readership of this list, so I would be very appreciative if
some of you could post personal experiences, anecdotes, suggestions,
etc. about Komondorok, Kuvaszok, and Pulik.

Ello"re is ko"szo"nom,

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:54 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely asks:

>Anyway, may I ask somebody, whoever knows the answer,
>why does English have not any word for 'short story',
>something, like 'novella'?
>                                            Sz. Zoli
>
>

        But there is a word "novella" in English. Usually it means a shorter
novel; something between short story and novel. The dictionary definition is
"a short story with a compact and pointed plot."

        Eva Balogh
+ - Sophistry & disrespect - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Aug 25,  1:58pm, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
> Subject: Re: Sophistry
> > >I'm just over celebrating 11 hundred years of my people
> > >in Europe. And in Hungary it is a reason to celebrate.
> > >In the U.S. you may celebrate the birthday of Mickey
> > >Mouse, as comparable?
> >
   and
>
> The American idol is the money. Money-worshipping is nothing
> new in history. What is new, however, is that this money-
> worshipping became mainstream and the basis of the society.
>                                                   Sz. Zoli
>-- End of excerpt from Zoltan Szekely

    This is not really worth commenting on.  Do you have some more
    "respectful" gems? Are you really so insecure that you need to
    belittle others to feel good about yourself. Pitiful!
                                                              Amos
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>Eva said:
> Well, unless social norms have changed in Hungary radically in the
>last few months, I find the above simply inaccurate. Men don't kiss
>>> Too bad Eva that your powers of observation have vaned, perhaps you
>need glasses...or possibly you only go to limited areas of Hungary.
>Let me assure you that the practice is alive and well, especially for
>older frined, and relative.

>You are right that the Women in Hungary do tend to walk arm-in arm.

On the matter of males kissing, this is what I've seen: Hungarian
males I've known, especially in emotional circumstances, kiss each
other on the cheek, (and sometimes get pretty close to each other's
mouths, depending on circumstances), though not as routinely, perhaps,
as with Balkan and Aegean peoples. I've seen Greek males use the mouth-
to-mouth kiss between close friends or relatives, though not quite as
passionately as between man and woman.

All this is generally considered socially taboo (between heterosexuals)
by the British (too many of whom are suffocatingly repressed about their
feelings and emotions). A pair of Greek male friends I got to know fairly
well told me that during time they spent in Switzerland (and Western
Europe generally) people would often think they were gay (which they
weren't) when they kissed. They thought Westerners strange.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:25 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:
>If America is
>so "culturally challenged," then what's a provincial horse's ass like you
>doing here taking up valuable space in one of our public universities?

>>And in Hungary it is a reason to celebrate.
>>In the U.S. you may celebrate the birthday of Mickey
>>Mouse, as comparable?
>
>Mickey, at the very least, has much higher standards of personal conduct,
>intellectual rigor and orthographic precision than you. You're not even
>much of a goodwill ambassador for Hungary. And what a horrible hypocrite
>you are -- looking down your nose at America while feeding at the trough!
>You'd better thank the heavens above that we are a fairly tolerant,
>easy-going bunch here in the bad, old United States.
>Sam Stowe

        It couldn't have been said better--I certainly couldn't come up with
Sam's colorful English! As for goodwill ambassador--this is exactly what I
find most appalling. People generalize, as we all know, and what will happen
if people will think that we are all like Zoli Szekely, who are intolerant,
who looked down on his hosts, who suffer from ill-founded superiority complex.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoltan:

Why are you so pathetic?  In a debate people stay on the same topic.  You
however, have to escape by making up a different exagerated topic and deve-
loping stories about it!

It is pathetic to see that you would likely be bothered by someone eating some-
thing that you don't like.  You are very sad and hateful, aren't you.

If you have to compare dignity and personal human sexual preferences to cock-
roach eating, you really must have a low-level mind.

You can't even answer my questions regarding religion... and you dare rave on
about other topics you make up.  How pathetic.

What's a matter, can't you think for yourself.... or do you first have to ask
your priest or bishop for an opinion to they can think for you?  Come on, Zoli,
try answering a few questions for a change:

1) Who answered all those wonderful prayers to St. Christopher???

2) If the Church thinks reproductive rights are so sacred, why the castrati?
   Why did the Church castrate little boys so they could sing higher???

3) Where does the term faggot come from???

Zoli, stop running your mouth and think for a change!  I know homosexuals who
debate better than you!

- Mark
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Farkas said:

Peter, except of a few on this list (Joe Szalai, Eva Durant - by the way
where is she?), you are preaching to the converted.

The problem is that it seems that in Hungary if this is done faster and more
drastically than it is, the country will end up not with a Socialist but
with a Communist government (since there is democracy and the majority seems
to value the welfare state more than the free market). Is that what you want?

Gabor D. Farkas
>>>
No it is NOT what I want. What I want is the orderly elimination of most
of the4 subsidies, the cross training of those who have been ejected due
to their job elimination, the improvement of the work ethic (pay for what
you aern by working [not just showing up], the removal of the entrenched
govt officials who block progress in every possible way (and profit from it).
I want all Hungarians to be able to go out once in a while to a nice
restaurant without having to pay a 25% VAT for example. I want Hungarians
to be able to make and buy Hungarian products for themselves.

I still remember that in the "old" days there used to be a quote:
"A selejt az jo a magyaroknake, a tobbi az exportra" The rejects are good
for the Hungarians, the other we export.

Gabor I do understand exactly what you are talking about. The major
problem is that the govt allowed on the one side a rise in consumer
prices witout the benfit of pay raises.

One cannot instantly re-arrange the cost structure to western standards
without a lot of pain.
For example...in HU the cost of housing (extremely subsidized) was only about
10% of their total income, as compared to close to 35-40% in the West.
Ditto with the food, tranport, etc. the HU's are in sticker shock and have
no idea of how to get out of this quagmire. They used to be able to
afford to go out to restaurants, theatre, etc. yet it has become more
expensive than the average HU can afford.
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(For reference pls see enclosed previous posting below.)

Zoli-Baby!

I love your intellectual response to Eva: "I refuse to believe you."  Wow, that
is powerful and convincing.

What does AIDS and death have to do with anything??  Are you immortal?  If your
good made AIDS to destroy gays, he sure is a faszfej.  Your god is such an ass
he has kill numerous babies and young mothers.  He has also killed social
workers, doctors, nurses...  When people in your family die, we will all wonder
what kinds of sinning monsters they were to let themselves get sick.

Zoli: Here's another question:  Why did Pope John-Paul I die so young and sud-
denly??  God sure must hate him!

- Mark>

> > Peter Soltesz is simply wrong. Sexual responses don't depend on choice.
> Oh, Eva! I know, you had your 2 fauvorite students just out
> of the closet. You remember your own story of the past in the
> FORUM? Whatever happened to them. Both got AIDS and died.
> Poor favourite students of yours.
>
> Anyway, I refuse to believe you. How do you know that these
> responses don't depend on choices? Did you read it in the
> latest tabloid or in a reliable source? (I guess not in any
> of the latter.)
>                                                    Sz. Zoli
>
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva has an interesting point here:

Here is a suggestion (albeit a drastic one):

Stop all subsidies for everyone [except retired people]
then let the chips fall where they may, but very soon after that
the countires economic system will realign with all of the
realtive prices, costs percentages, etc. readjusted.
This also requires that they remove most of the VATs, the
tax on gas needs to be halfed, reduce the import duties & taxes,
eliminate the nonsense cross subsidies on raw materials, etc.

Tehn and only then will HU be able to fix its ecoomy driven by real
market forces as opposed to the govt.

After that if HU products arr better or cheaper then people will buy them
(except those who must by Sony's, etc.). The heck with Norelco Zoli Fekete
it was just an example that I could cite.  This problem is fundamental
to HU. Perhaps those in the govt (who are making 5-10X as much as the general
public ought to give up their "fat" salaries first and when the country
is on good footing, then get them up to western standards. Else HU is
breeding mistrust and hatred of those who may be able to help.
Peter

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 04:31 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> >> Perhaps one needs to look at what really needs to take place. First
> >> the taxes (prices) have to be reduced and simultaneously the budget
> >> (expenses) have to be reduced.
> >
> > For the umptieth time I am asking, in the hope that finally you'd hear
> >it: what expenses would you be reducing? Remember how the relatively minor
> >(compared to what would be needed to balance a significant tax cut)
> >restrictions in the Bokros-package infuriated much of the population.
> >Those cuts are already in place. What else could you take away?
>
>         This is a very legitimate question which the Hungarian opposition
> refuses to answer. A very interesting situation occurred in Hungary: a
> socialist-liberal government was formed two years ago, which, after some
> initial hesitation, began to face reality and began to dismantle the former
> socialist welfare state. Not an enviable position for any government but
> especially not for a socialist government which promised a "social
> democracy." So, eventually a restrictive economic policy was introduced
> (Bokros package). So what can a rightist opposition do in a case like that?
> They have to use social demagoguery: the more they talk they more they sound
> like socialists and criticize the socialist government from a basically
> leftist position. They are outdoing any socialist, promising an apartment to
> every newly wed person. Where does the money come from: well, they don't
> care about this. Absolute irresponsibility and unfortunately a lot of people
> fall for it.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh previusly sent a good letter on the problems in HU.

In fact I agree with most of her observations as de facto truth.
There are NO attempts to prevent this kind of public stealing.
There are no meters oor coin boxes on the buses, trolley, or metros for
example.
Govt personnel have multiple (and conflicting) jobs and accept bribes.
The tax system assumes: that whatever you decalre is correct (ha ha ha!)
perhaps we could adopt that in the states IRS????

I always tought it to be stupid to continue this way in HU. The fact is
that for many years during the C era this pilfering to grand theft
was nuurished. This mUST stoip first forcefully!!!
Then perhasp those who are still remaining honest in HU can survive too!
+ - Morals: don't play that game! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Message Title: THE GREAT ESCAPE

Peter Soltesz:

I don't think you are able to follow our discussion on gay rights clearly,
because when I mention that there are constructive, positive homosexual rela-
tionships, all you can say is "I confuse sex with love?"

Hu:lyese'g!  I am saying exactly that homosexuals are just as capable and de-
serving of dignity because they are just as capable as us to have a LOVING
relationship.

Where is there a confusing between sex and love.

It is fine if you are unable to answer my questions, but please do not suddenly
invent statements such as the one above.

I NEVER once mentioned ANYTHING about men kissing other men in different cul-
tures!  Do not escape the argument by inventing a totally new issue and telling
ME what MY position is.  That is sick.  It is also the same game that Szekely
plays, and I thought you were above him.

Platonic hugs and kisses,
Mark
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Here are more questions for Zoli to avoid:

Szekely Zoltan wrote:

> And by this they choose to be free from any
> human authority. They always have trouble
> with authorities. Homosexuality in a sense
> is nothing more than the uncapability of
> accepting any human (or spiritual) authority.
> And it has all the consequences.
>                                    Sz. Zoli

Thank you for explaining how homosexuality is just a political manuoeuver!
So, by this reasoning, should we also see how you only choose to be hetero-
sexual because you need authority and you want someone on top of you?  Were
those brave anti-Communists homosexual??  Or do you actually love authority-
Communist, religious....???  How dare you judge the spirituality of another
person just because of their social preference!

Another question for you to avoid, Zoltan:  If homosexuals can't accept any
authority, why are there so many gay priests and nuns??  Why did many North
American Indian tribes see homosexuals as being spiritually more aware!! ??
+ - Re: Morals: don't play that game! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Perhaps I am having problems receing all of the messages. At times I get
two or more at times nothing. Perhaps I am guilty of following the
messages ...as they came in... and there were other discussions (not
neccesarily yours) that did discuss the issues raised.

Perhaps if you did not receive (or read) I did state quite clearly I
think'that gays are human and are capable of positive actions just like
the rest of humanity.What I did say is that I tought that it is their
action of being gay (their choice!) is what is wrong. If I were to argue
any opther way then it would not make sense. I also stated in a previous
message that I worked with professional gays in a firm. If we were all
perfect then we would not be here on this earth. I just happen to think
that what gays are doing (sex NOT love) is wrong. period. I cannot argue
further.

Peter

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Message Title: THE GREAT ESCAPE
>
> Peter Soltesz:
>
> I don't think you are able to follow our discussion on gay rights clearly,
> because when I mention that there are constructive, positive homosexual rela-
> tionships, all you can say is "I confuse sex with love?"
>
> Hu:lyese'g!  I am saying exactly that homosexuals are just as capable and de-
> serving of dignity because they are just as capable as us to have a LOVING
> relationship.
>
> Where is there a confusing between sex and love.
>
> It is fine if you are unable to answer my questions, but please do not
 suddenly
> invent statements such as the one above.
>
> I NEVER once mentioned ANYTHING about men kissing other men in different cul-
> tures!  Do not escape the argument by inventing a totally new issue and
 telling
> ME what MY position is.  That is sick.  It is also the same game that Szekely
> plays, and I thought you were above him.
>
> Platonic hugs and kisses,
> Mark
>
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark said:
Zoli: Here's another question:  Why did Pope John-Paul I die so young and
sud-
denly??  God sure must hate him!

Mark ----- have you not heard the expression: Only the Good die young!

Mark also said (please watch your Hungarian thank you!)

What does AIDS and death have to do with anything??  Are you immortal?
If your
good made AIDS to destroy gays, he sure is a faszfej.  Your god is such
an ass
he has kill numerous babies and young mothers.  He has also killed social
workers, doctors, nurses...  When people in your family die, we will all
wonder
what kinds of sinning monsters they were to let themselves get sick.

Mark --- without getting into an argument I would just like to make an
observation on your comment if I may:

Without making a judgement on either side, you have perhaps forgotten
that one
other thing. Namely the consequences of certain choices
Peter
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter:

Your witty comment "Only the Good die young" should not be used as an escape
from answering my question regarding the pope's death.  If many religious peopl
e
can interpret acts of god, I'd like to know the meaning of this one.

If "only the good die young," the Szekely Zoltan should be more respectful to
all of those good, young people who have died of AIDS.

The English of many Hungarians on this list is full of grammatical errors and
cute Hungarian phrases put in here and there, and feel NO remorse if I make
a mistake in Hungarian or add it here and there too.  Be fair.  However, I will
try not to use crude words.  Unfortunately, I learned them on the Hungary list.

Why do you bring up points again where none existed? I never NEVER disagreed
that choices bring consequences!  That is why gay people should realize that
their silence will not protect them.  Why do you seem to think that the choice
to be gay has to bring bad consequences????????????????????  Do you not want to
admit that there are healthy, mature gay people in society?

I have no problem with the idea that choice can bring good and bad consequences
!
Show me where I have stated otherwise!  Obviously then, your choice to be
heterosexual has given you many consequences to live with.

- Mark
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:02 AM 8/26/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        It couldn't have been said better--I certainly couldn't come up with
>Sam's colorful English! As for goodwill ambassador--this is exactly what I
>find most appalling. People generalize, as we all know, and what will happen
>if people will think that we are all like Zoli Szekely, who are intolerant,
>who looked down on his hosts, who suffer from ill-founded superiority complex.

I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Only people who think(?) like Zoli
Szekely will think that we are all like him.  Most of us, I think, are a bit
more clever, despite our generalizations.

And to think that this is the same Zoli Szekely who likes to lecture people
on "asymmetrical thinking".  I always thought Bozo, the clown, worked in the
circus.

Joe Szalai
+ - Well, what's the 'good' choice? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter,

Still no answer to any of my questions! Lucky for you all I'm tired of posting
them, as I am sure others are tired of reading them.

Unfortunately,  I cannot answer your messages each time they come in, although
I would like to.  I do not have use of the computer on the week-end and usually
try to answer messages during lunch or morning/afternoon coffee breaks. I will
also probably be off the list after this Friday, because it is easy to become
addicted to it and spend too much time here.  This is my choice and I look for-
ward to its consequences!

Yes, I know you think gays choose to be gay and are making a wrong choice. That
is SIMPLY your own thought, and what one person simply thinks should have no
negative force on the life of another who thinks differently.  But all you have
is your opinion. You do not even have the right to judge is someone's relation
ship is based on sex or love! Do you go up to gay people and ask them if their
relationships are based on sex or love?

Well.....
Are you married? Did you just marry because you want your wife's money?  Well,
I've heard of heterosexuals doing that before, so I'll think NO MATTER what you
 do to logically prove otherwise, that you just marry for money. Or did you jus
t
 marry for sex? That happens to, you know.

Yes, you are right.  You cannot argue further, because you have no argument if
all you can do is say vague, general statements with only "what you think" to
support you. You and Szekely can't even answer many of my questions!

******
If homosexuals keep on making this bad choice to be homosexual, then what is
this "good" choice they are supposed to be making? It wouldn't be funny if you
had a daughter who married a gay man! After some time he would maybe feel badly
 and the truth would come out- He never loved your daughter...  He just married
her to try heterosexual SEX. Would you be more happy that he made the choice to
try and be heterosexual or angry that he fooled your daughter?

The only choice many gays have seemed to make is to stop lying for others and
start to be themselves!  Maybe Anita Bryant would do better to "choose" to be
a lesbian, because the poor girl was beaten and bossed around so badly by her
"loving" husband in her ideal traditional family.
*********

- Mark
+ - Re: one final question (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter,

If life is choices and their consequences, then tell me please:

When did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?  (You still haven't answered this.)
When did you choose your eye color and hair color?  How to you decide what
is a choice and what you are born with?

- Mark
+ - Re: Well, what's the 'good' choice? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well Mark...I see you sure are in a hurry to get your answers
Take it easy! I will get to them as soon as I have time and this
link works fast. Moreover, one does tend to think about these
a bit, unlike some people we both know!
Yes I would be quite upset if the guy did that to my daughter
as he was being dishonest with her. Such marriages will fail
in the long run anyway -- as marriage must be based on trust
and full openess.

As far as your examples are concerned, you are partially right...you are
showing an exmaple of bad marriage. There are very very few
perfect marriages! If you think that you are lucky (or that gays are)
that you believe that this is MY thinking ONLY. then I feel sorry
for you all, because it is NOT. Someone zillion times more important than
me is the ultimate source of the truth and He decides. I can only
tell'you what I know. Take it for what you want or not. I am only
trying to clear up some of the misconceptions.

BTW I was tryiong to answer your other mesage when it went dead.
Try again later. Have soem patience will you Mark??

On Mon, 26
Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Still no answer to any of my questions! Lucky for you all I'm tired of postin
g
> them, as I am sure others are tired of reading them.
>
> Unfortunately,  I cannot answer your messages each time they come in, althoug
h
> I would like to.  I do not have use of the computer on the week-end and
 usually
> try to answer messages during lunch or morning/afternoon coffee breaks. I wil
l
> also probably be off the list after this Friday, because it is easy to become
> addicted to it and spend too much time here.  This is my choice and I look
 for-
> ward to its consequences!
>
> Yes, I know you think gays choose to be gay and are making a wrong choice.
 That
> is SIMPLY your own thought, and what one person simply thinks should have no
> negative force on the life of another who thinks differently.  But all you
 have
> is your opinion. You do not even have the right to judge is someone's relatio
n
> ship is based on sex or love! Do you go up to gay people and ask them if thei
r
> relationships are based on sex or love?
>
> Well.....
> Are you married? Did you just marry because you want your wife's money?  Well
,
> I've heard of heterosexuals doing that before, so I'll think NO MATTER what
 you
>  do to logically prove otherwise, that you just marry for money. Or did you
 just
>  marry for sex? That happens to, you know.
>
> Yes, you are right.  You cannot argue further, because you have no argument i
f
> all you can do is say vague, general statements with only "what you think" to
> support you. You and Szekely can't even answer many of my questions!
>
> ******
> If homosexuals keep on making this bad choice to be homosexual, then what is
> this "good" choice they are supposed to be making? It wouldn't be funny if yo
u
> had a daughter who married a gay man! After some time he would maybe feel
 badly
>  and the truth would come out- He never loved your daughter...  He just
 married
> her to try heterosexual SEX. Would you be more happy that he made the choice
 to
> try and be heterosexual or angry that he fooled your daughter?
>
> The only choice many gays have seemed to make is to stop lying for others and
> start to be themselves!  Maybe Anita Bryant would do better to "choose" to be
> a lesbian, because the poor girl was beaten and bossed around so badly by her
> "loving" husband in her ideal traditional family.
> *********
>
> - Mark
>
+ - Re: one final question (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Yes
No
It is a choice if I can change it or select it

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Peter,
>
> If life is choices and their consequences, then tell me please:
>
> When did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?  (You still haven't answered this.)
> When did you choose your eye color and hair color?  How to you decide what
> is a choice and what you are born with?
>
> - Mark
>
+ - Re: Well, what's the 'good' choice? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter,

Thanks for your last posting. However, I do not understand how you know the
ultimate source of truth and what any god decides.

The Bible  contains many mistranslated and different versions of contradictions
.
Remember my recent previous posting: Where in the New Testament (if you are
Christian) are homosexuals/homosexuality condemned??   ???

It just seems to be "picking and choosing:
The Bible seems to have approved of incest and polygamy, but do Christians
rally for upholding these ancient traditions?  Again: If Leviticus says
homosexuals should be damned, then what about people who shave and people
who touch leather?  They are also sinning.  But who determines then, what sin
to keep and which sins to ignore? Are women in menstruation dirty still??  If a
woman commits adultery, should the woman be targeted for stoning? (Lucky guy
seemed to get off the hook.) But, let's just stick to the New Testament
since this is the 'new truth' for the world.  This god and the ultimate truth
seem to be a bit confused.

Interesting answer regarding my question of what is choice.  You said, "It is
a choice if I can change it or select it."  O.K.  But, my sister did not choose
to be a lesbian and face discrimination and hate.  Other gays have tried to
change through marriage, counseling, diving into religion... and they can't
change even though they want/are forced to.  Gee, does that look like a choice
to you then?  Also, if sexuality is a choice, when and why did you choose to
become heterosexual?

Again I ask you: What is this "good choice" that gay people should make in orde
r
to stop making what you call a "good choice."

Thank you... patiently yours,
Mark
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

[New mail! From Mark Humphreys regarding Well, what's the 'good' choice?]

Mark here is my response (in part)

1- against what God's nature is.
2- it destroys the family unit -- the basis for all human life on earth
3- it is one more "sin = the transgression of the law"
4- it is evidenced by AIDS and other degenerative diseases
5- it pollutes the psyche of children and others and perverts the good
and grace of God.

++ Moreover, it is something that when analyzed yields a mind set that
++ allows one to consider it OK (or normal) {which in my opinion is not}.
++ If I may say another thing (not related to your comments)
++ it is this type of thinking that permits people to kill babies that
++ are either unborn or as in partial birth abortions.

++ It is basically an ethical question. Let me please define the difference
++ between ethical and moral. In Brazil it is morally acceptable to have
++ intercourse with a 14 year old (it is legal, one can marry also)
++ Yet it is ethically wrong, because a 14 year old girl does not know
++ the difference nor the conseqences of her action.
++ The concept of // If it feels good do it is wrong, stupid, and very
dangerous! //

Peter
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Stop all subsidies for everyone [except retired people]

 Bingo - much of the subsidies left are for retired people (who make up a
very high portion of the population, between 1/4 and 1/3 I believe), after
Bokros et.al had cut the rest with a vengeance. Incidentally, may I remind
you that you were supposed to be talking about INCREASING affordability
and DECREASING prices - cutting subsidies has the exact opposite effect!

> then let the chips fall where they may, [...]
> This also requires that they remove most of the VATs
 No, this requires no such thing - only you do ;-(.
 Let's have a look at your public enemy #1, the VAT. Suppose it is to be
slashed one-half - and that, in order to not make this wish of yours an
unfunded mandate, the government would need to raise the personal income
tax to make up for the lost revenue. Given the 513B:379B current ratio
between the two categories, it'd require a 68% increase in the latter to
balance 50% loss in the former. Assuming complete price inflexibility (ie.
all the tax relief being passed on to the customers, rather than some used
to boost corporate profits instead), and a VAT down to 12.5% from 25% this
would result in a whopping 10% decrease in price (or roughly half the
recent inflation rate).
 Do you really think many taxpayer customers would be willing to trade
68% additional income tax for 10% price relief?

 I guess your answer is going to be that rather than raising taxes they'd
just have to cut some of those unspecified spendings - in which case
you've got question encore No.3: which spendings?!
 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



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+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:38 PM 8/25/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>At 07:43 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz gave us a large number of sources
>that justify the abolition of the welfare state.
>
>Peter, except of a few on this list (Joe Szalai, Eva Durant - by the way
>where is she?), you are preaching to the converted.
>
>The problem is that it seems that in Hungary if this is done faster and more
>drastically than it is, the country will end up not with a Socialist but
>with a Communist government (since there is democracy and the majority seems
>to value the welfare state more than the free market). Is that what you want?

Oh brother!  What incredible nonsense.  You want the abolition of the
welfare state?  Get real!!

The only thing you and your fellow travellers have been converted to, is to
gullibly believe all the nonsense that spews from the mouths of the sexually
maladjusted, socially inadequate, and intellectually bankrupt neo-liberals
who spend most of their time masquerading as thoughtful, concerned
neo-conservatives.  What bullshit!  Why, even the wool they're trying to
pull over people's eyes is 90 percent polyester!  But who cares so long as
people are buying it.  Right?

Do you see the welfare state being abolished anywhere?  No!  But why disturb
your intellectual stupor, your comfort, and your property, when you can
wallow in the mindless agitation and political control that your psudo
economic remedies provide.  Why, indeed?

Whether you and your fellow travellers like it or not, modern capitalism and
the welfare state go together hand in glove.  Abolish one and you abolish
the other.  It's that simple.  But don't believe me.  Look around the globe
and tell me where the flourishing welfare-free capitalist states are
located.  There aren't any, are there?  However, there are plenty of states
that don't have welfare.  Why aren't you living there?  Why aren't any of
your fellow travellers living there?  You know, it's very easy writing
economic prescriptions for Hungary when you live in Canada, the United
States, or Australia.  You get to stay comfy, and the well-off in Hungary
get to be better-off.  And the rest are screwed.  But this isn't a new idea.
It's not a revolutionary act.  It's an old reactionary idea, caused by some
kind of personal insecurity, and it's called greed.  But why stop lapping it
up!  After all, you 'earned' it.

Abolising the welfare state means abolishing pensions for senior citizens.
And why not?  They're old and useless anyway.  They'll just die a few years
earlier.  No big deal!

Abolishing the welfare state means abolishing all forms of medical care for
those who can't afford it.  And, once again, why not?  If the poor rot and
die at least there'll be fewer of them around to menace us and I'll have
more money in MY pocket.  I'm starting to like your plan, Gabor!  I just
adore money, you know.  It's the only thing I live for.  Do we have at least
that much in common?

Abolish the welfare state and the poor will steal from you.  Some will be
clever enough to sell drugs to your children and grandchildren and at least
they'll be proud enough because they're financially self supporting.  And I
wouldn't blame them one bit.

Abolish the welfare state and the number of people living in 'walled or
controlled communities' will increase.  And those people will be able to
enjoy their golden acre because they can no longer enjoy the world.  But why
let a socially myopic view change your philosophy?

Abolish the welfare state and we all lose.  Guaranteed!

Joe Szalai

"If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few
who are rich."
                     John F. Kennedy
+ - child molestors!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the response, but the answers are vague and only opinions again.
Your arguments seem so weak. You throw around "god" and child molestor
fears w/o rhyme or reason.

1) What is against this god's nature? Love and a relationship?  Is it gods
   nature to just condemn cut everything into a black/white world? What a sad
   god and boring creation.

2) Helping people develop in a positive way is NOT destroying ANY family.
   Tesse'k!
   Does one man marrying another mean you must divorce your wife???  So, do
   you think not allowing gays to marry will make heterosexual marriages
   perfect and make everyone marry boy-girl?

3) AIDS is EVERYONE'S disease in Africa and most of Europe! Heterosexuals have
   been suffering from venereal diseases and MANY other plagues for centuries!
   So this is a poor argument.  What is evident by AIDS, then? Just a careless,
   inept god?  So, heterosexuals in the Americas don't get AIDS either?  Aren't
   moral people protected?

4) No one polluted the psyches of children!  The Catholic Church and my parents
   tried to recruit my sister all their life, but she is still a lesbian.
   Heterosexuals are always trying to recruit youngsters.  YOU try to recruit
   youngsters, because you have a fixation with controling what they think and
   hear!

Who says homosexuals want your children... besides you?  Wasn't that news about
the pervert in Belgium who killed and raped girls sad? Why are heterosexuals so
disturbed?  They already have so many advantages.  Stastically it is even shown
that heterosexuals are clearly the majority of child molestors!  ... But don't
you want to criminalize and marginalize heterosexuals!!??  Of course not! You
are one and you try to be a fairly decent person. There are many homosexuals
just as decent as you.

Repeat: If I had a god, it would have valued everything it made.  Not classify
everything and put it in some freakish patriarchal heirarchy. My god, it seems,
would have made less ambiguities and mistakes than yours.  My god wouldn't
misdirect diseases and wouldn't probably make strong natural laws so easy to
"naturally ignore!" My god even made bisexuals.  Its world is not black/white
it is full and some black and white and many beautiful nuances of gray.

I am talking about giving homosexuals equal chances in living.  Why do you men-
tion heterosexual problems in Brazil? If they can't handle their sexual prac-
tices, than let them suffer the consequences.  There are many gays perfectly
able to handle their sexual practices, and that has nothing to do with Brazil.

I am glad I am not a Christian, because they often seem so unsatisfied with
their god's creation.  They often have to change this and exterminate that,
label this and outlaw that.  I feel sorry for so many native cultures that were
killed out by the love of the Christ and law of god.

What does your god do?  You and many others seem to already be doing the
judging for it. You all can judge right and wrong for multitudes of people.
So, what does your god have to do?

As an extra point: ABORTION WAS OUTLAWED IN ROMANIA, AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT A
WONDERFUL ARRANGEMENT THAT WAS!

- Mark
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Farkas Gabor:

> I am sorry, I never slapped my son on his face (or anywhere else).
Gabor, this story is not about you, or me, or somebody
else. It is about a psychical process which could turn
a child into a rebel against any kind of authority,
putting him in the risk of becaming  a social outcast,
homo-x, etc.
                                             Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

ESB:
>
>         But there is a word "novella" in English. Usually it means a shorter
> novel; something between short story and novel. The dictionary definition is
> "a short story with a compact and pointed plot."
I have never heard it in the US. Maybe it is my
mistake. Thanks for the quick help, anyway.

                                       Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam:
>
> In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> > idol-worshipping Euroweenie writes:
>
> >Heidegger is rooted so deeply in the European culture
> >that we don't need, thank you very much, culturally
> >challanged advices from over the sea.
> >
> >As about faults, well, everybody may have faults.
> >Even a Heidegger. But putting him and his philosophy
> >on the flames of a self-indulged entellectuel witch-
> >hunt is a different story.
>
> First of all, this will be the third or fourth time I will point out to
> you that I am a serious student of Heidegger's philosophy.

Thanks. So may we have a chance in the future to discuss
the topic in merit? Just asking...

> If America is
> so "culturally challenged," then what's a provincial horse's ass like you
> doing here [etc.]
Sam, you are an excellent person. But please, do not
identify yourself with America. It was YOUR advise, that
I called culturally challanged. It was you, who called
Heidegger a 'bavarian peasant'. Thanks, I do not need
this kind of 'advices'.

I never called American culture, as part of the global
culture, culturally challenged. I know a couple damned
good thinkers of American origin, who are so brilliant
as few in Europe. That is the truth. Culturally chal-
lenged opinion is represented, actually, by a small
minority in the US, who are 'too clever' to admit the
obvious and so fall short in their reasoning. (It is a
completely different question, that how this minority
influences the society at large.)

To make more sense of this, I will discuss shortly a
recent publication about Heidegger. You will find cul-
turally callanged positions from Europe as well, as from
the US. And also, you will find very decent defences of
Heidegger's legacy from the US as well, as from Europe.
You will have a chance to compare which is culturally
challanged and which is more decent standpoint from over
the sea or from Europe. I hope you can make a difference.

> Would you include those Hungarians of the Jewish faith as being among
> "your people"? How about those Hungarians who are gay or lesbian? Uh huh.
> Didn't think so.
I don't understand why could not be a Jew or a homo-x
Hungarian. They are part of the nation. Sorry, I just can
not get your hint here.

(Or was it a sign for the general deadly attack against
me? Then I congratulate. You did it.)

> Mickey, at the very least, has much higher standards of personal conduct,
> intellectual rigor and orthographic precision than you.
Huh, you like ad hominem, don't you. I kept laughing on
your joke about 2 hours long. Sorry, I just could not stop
it. You are a big master of funny little jokes, aren't you.
Anyway, I believe I got your message.

But what about the witch-hunt issue? Or is it not tasting
well?
                                                 Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark Humpreys:
> If "only the good die young," the Szekely Zoltan should be more respectful to
> all of those good, young people who have died of AIDS.
I am respectful. What is more, I am mournful.
I hope God has mercy for them.

(I just don't get it, how could Eva put herself
through the deaths of her favourite students.)

                                     Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:32 PM 8/26/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>++ The concept of // If it feels good do it is wrong, stupid, and very
>dangerous! //

Right!  Now I get it!!  You're safe.  You're smart.  And heterosexual
activity doesn't feel good to you.  Hmmm.  This is a rather interesting
revelation.  I don't suppose you'd be interested in my suggestion?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Farkas Gabor:
>
>> I am sorry, I never slapped my son on his face (or anywhere else).
>Gabor, this story is not about you, or me, or somebody
>else. It is about a psychical process which could turn
>a child into a rebel against any kind of authority,
>putting him in the risk of becaming  a social outcast,
>homo-x, etc.
>                                             Sz. Zoli
>
>Zoli:why don't you talk about those priest who are and were on trial for
abusing kids,for whom they offered shelter and education?How many were there
and how many more are hiding somewhere else,since they were transfered.
I believe there was even a program on 60 minutes about them.
Andy.
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Mark Humpreys:
>> If "only the good die young," the Szekely Zoltan should be more respectful t
o
>> all of those good, young people who have died of AIDS.
>I am respectful. What is more, I am mournful.
>I hope God has mercy for them.
>
>(I just don't get it, how could Eva put herself
>through the deaths of her favourite students.)
>
>                                     Sz. Zoli
>
>I believe God will,but how about you?
Andy.
+ - cockroaches, Version II (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> From  Mon Aug 26 14:49:38 1996
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=US-ASCII>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Length: 368

> > I am sorry, I never slapped my son on his face (or anywhere else).
> Gabor, this story is not about you, or me, or somebody
> else. It is about a psychical process which could turn
> a child into a rebel against any kind of authority,
> putting him in the risk of becaming  a social outcast,
> homo-x, etc.
>                                              Sz. Zoli
>

! Sz. Zoli, your story is more about a confused mess than about being a good
analysis regarding the cause of homosexuals....  You talk of the virtue of
following authority.  Well, that's very communist of you.  They liked order
w/o question just like you.  I am sure you would never want to be a social
outcast, because two wrongs always make a right and we must always bend with
the majority.

Let's change your story Zoli:

You like to eat cockroaches and you demand that everyone else do the same.
When they don't you get angry and say that some god demands they eat
cockroaches or they will go to hell! Some people like frogs instead and feel
healthy and fine and happy with their frogs. But NO!  You are angry, because
everyone has to play YOUR game.  So you and your god just keep getting angrier
 and angrier...

There, you should understand that.

I see much more love and understanding in parents such as my mother or Mr.
Farkas.  Your god of love and justice seems so scared and filled with dis-
satisfaction and anger.  If simple human parents can show love and understand,
why is it that your super-god is so inept in this area?

STILL nobody has shown me where in the New Testament gays are despised!!  Stop
making up cute stories to fit your ideas and start a meaningful debate.

- Mark
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam:

> Here's Heidegger on technology, for instance:
>
> "Agriculture is today a motorized food industry, in essence the same as
> the manufacture of corpses in gas chambers and extermination camps, the
> same as the blockade and starvation of countries, the same as the
> manufacture of atomic bombs."
>
> I can't think of a better response to this post-war piece of barbarism
> than to quote Richard Wolin ("The Politics of Being: The Political Thought
> of Martin Heidegger," Columbia University Press, 1990): "That Heidegger
> can in good conscience equate mechanized agriculture with the genocidal
> politics of the Nazis is not only a monumental non sequitur in historical
> reasoning; it suggests a fundamental incapacity for both moral and
> theoretical discernment." (Wolin, p. 168)

0. First of all, you are pre-occupied. You begin with judgement
   against Heidegger, calling his writing a 'piece of barbarism'
   without any analyzing effort whatsoever as to the merits of
   the text. At least, you should explain what do you mean by
   barbarism and why do you accuse him (and not the exterminators)
   by barbarism. You are eager (just as Mr. Wolin) to condemn
   somebody without any deeper insight in his thoughts. It is a
   sure sign, that you cut this text out of its contextual
   environment, just to make your accusation.

1. Next, I have to mention that modern hermeneutics is based on
   a high respect toward the text you analyze. You can not find
   too many quotes from Heidegger about gas chambers and exter-
   mination camps. Therefore you have to be cautious, and use all
   of the available tools of modern philosophy in order to get
   the right conclusion from the few quotes you have. And these
   tools include hermeneutics.

2. Considering the merits of the text, our first thought is about
   the unhuman character of the technology. Machines don't have
   moral and theoretical discernments. Machines don't mind the
   loss of lives, or the quality of material they manufacture.
   They even accept corpses. Is it not the living horror on the
   Earth?! Is it not the ultimate behavior of 'death factories'
   across the life span of this most hated Century of ours? Is it
   not the driving force behind the ten millions of deaths in
   the GULAG, the millions of deaths in Auschwitz, the other millions
   in Cambodia, Ukrain, the ten thousands at Srebenica? And what
   about Hiroshima, Nagasaki? They are all about the technology
   of killing. More exactly, about the way murder could become
   and actually became a pure mechanical question in this Century.

3. All of these people were denied to have a chance to die in
   dignity. You can not be dignified when you face machines. You
   can not have human death if humanity is denied from you. Even
   your death is consumed by technology just as your life was
   identified by the stamp you got on your skin. If technology
   rules, there are no heroes, no human greatness, no pity, no
   mercy. No value of life.

4. The corruption of mind begins when you accept the authority
   of technology in the human ways and means. What was a human
   decision in the earlier Centuries, now becomes a technology
   question. What used to belong to the human essence, now is
   subdued by technology. The relation to the earth's life
   power is one of these human relations. Antique societies were
   arranged around this life power of the earth, around of the
   life power of the big rivers, around the life power of the
   green pastures. Life and blood stemmed from it. Now, it seems
   to be overpowered by motorized forces, chemicals, technology.
   This step of human corruption to technology could end up in
   the loss of moral, theoretical and actually, practical
   discernment. It is not about equating things which are not
   the same. But it is about finding some possibly common roots
   for the explanation of different things. And in the extreme
   you may visualize the ultimate inhumanity, as manifested in
   the gas chambers and extermination camps.

5. It is just a humble trial to interpret a text. Maybe I am not
   right. Anybody has a chance to come up with his/her own
   interpretation. But being unfair should not be a guarantee for
   acceptance.
                                                         Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>> (Eva Balogh says):        I can't quite believe that I am reading this.
You really think that
>> just because you happen to be born in Europe you will understand
Heidegger
>> or any other European philosopher better than a "culturally challenged"
>> person in the United States?
>
>Not, it is not what I'm saying.

Yup, that's exactly what you're saying.

>But Heidegger is European.
>And Europe has its own history. Sam has never explained me
>that how could all the European powers in 1938 allow Hitler
>to occupy Czechslovakia peacefully. The European mind had
>some misconceptions about Hitler and the Nazis before the
>war. And the Americans don't understand this.

Americans understand it perfectly. No one was under any illusions by 1938
about Hitler and the Nazis other than a significant portion of the German
people and fascist sympathizers in other countries. What people in Europe
and America alike did have misconceptions about was the value of peace at
any cost. Not much, as it turned out.
>
>(On the other hand, I don't understand why did not the US
>troops bomb railways leading to concentration camps in the
>end of the war. Many lives could have been saved. The
>American intelligence had exact informations what's going
>on in death camps.)

This is debatable. By the end of the war, most of the biggest death camps
in Poland and the east had been overrun by the Russians or shut down and
the remaining inmates force marched back to the Reich, most of them dying
or being murdered en route. And your theory overlooks the realities of
bombing. Railroads aren't all that difficult to rebuild after being
bombed. And if it had been carried out near the camps, there was a real
risk that the bombs might have fallen on them. Strategic aerial bombing
was not a very precise activity in World War II. (Still isn't for the most
part)
>
>The American idol is the money. Money-worshipping is nothing
>new in history. What is new, however, is that this money-
>worshipping became mainstream and the basis of the society.

Which, I presume, helps explain why your sorry ass is here in the U.S.
studying mathematics? So you'll have more marketable skills and a more
impressive academic pedigree when you go back to Budapest and infest the
academy there? Hmmm...there may be depths to your hypocrisy that I haven't
fully considered.

<sznip>
>
>Anyway, I respect the 3000th year celebration of Jerusalem.
>It must have some significance for his people, if they
>celebrate it.
>                                                  Sz. Zoli

"His" meaning whom? Your antecedant isn't clear at all. If you mean me,
I'm delighted and tickled to death that you assume I'm Jewish. Although I
know you did not intend it as a compliment, coming from you it is some of
the highest praise I could ever expect to receive from an anti-semite. You
need to be aware, however, that MY particular people are waiting for the
1,000th year anniversary of Darlington Speedway before they're going to
celebrate.
Sam Stowe

"I only use my gun
Whenever kindness fails..."
-- Robert Earl Keen
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe:

> And to think that this is the same Zoli Szekely who likes to lecture people
> on "asymmetrical thinking".
Very nice Joe!! You just kill me, and you may forget all
of this stuff about asymmetrical thinking... However I
hate to say, but there is a bad news for you, boy: you
guys may eliminate me (you revolutionists just love to
eliminate people), but the thing still remains the same.

                                               Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andy:
> Zoli:why don't you talk about those priest who are and were on trial for
> abusing kids,for whom they offered shelter and education?

These priests did not accept the authority of the
Church, did not accept the authority of the faith,
did not accept the authority of the teaching of
their very own profession. Also, they did not accept
the authority of the society. Too many bad mistakes
for clergymen. Why should I talk about them? If they
go to prison, I will clap my hands.
                                         Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark:
> Your god is such an ass
> he has kill numerous babies and young mothers.
You mean Yahweh? It is the Jewish name of my God, the
Father. Anyway...

I am so proud that Mark said this one to me about my God,
that I will nail his message on my wall. (Is it OK if I
title your words as 'A message out of the closet'?)

However, I know a different story. God is the ultimate
authority to whom it is worth to surrender. (Of course,
only if you are capable to surrender to any authorities
at all. Some people are just incapable...) The proof is
his love to us, to all people, which was expressed by
the sending of his only begotten Son to die for us on
the cross.
                                              Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai either misunderstands what Gabor and many others are
saying about the welfare state or he is so wound up on this subject that
rational discourse simply cannot be conducted with him on this matter. I'm
afraid it is the latter. It is enough to read some of Joe's sentences and
one realizes that such deep passion, perhaps even hatred toward those who
don't agree with him, exists in Joe's soul that I don't even know why we are
bothering to talk with him about it.

        Here are a few choice sentences:

>The only thing you and your fellow travellers have been converted to, is to
>gullibly believe all the nonsense that spews from the mouths of the sexually
>maladjusted, socially inadequate, and intellectually bankrupt neo-liberals
>who spend most of their time masquerading as thoughtful, concerned
>neo-conservatives.
.......

>Do you see the welfare state being abolished anywhere?  No!  But why disturb
>your intellectual stupor, your comfort, and your property, when you can
>wallow in the mindless agitation and political control that your psudo
>economic remedies provide.  Why, indeed?
.......

>You know, it's very easy writing
>economic prescriptions for Hungary when you live in Canada, the United
>States, or Australia.  You get to stay comfy, and the well-off in Hungary
>get to be better-off.  And the rest are screwed.  But this isn't a new idea.
>It's not a revolutionary act.  It's an old reactionary idea, caused by some
>kind of personal insecurity, and it's called greed.  But why stop lapping it
>up!  After all, you 'earned' it.
........
>Abolishing the welfare state means abolishing all forms of medical care for
>those who can't afford it.  And, once again, why not?  If the poor rot and
>die at least there'll be fewer of them around to menace us and I'll have
>more money in MY pocket.  I'm starting to like your plan, Gabor!  I just
>adore money, you know.  It's the only thing I live for.  Do we have at least
>that much in common?

        No one wants to abolish social legislations. Nobody wants to take
social security away from people. Nobody wants sick people die because of
lack of medical care. These ideas exist only in your mind, not in ours. I
don't want to speak for Gabor and the others but we, fiscal conservatives,
would like to see a society which relies less on the state's distributing
agencies. We know from the American experience that with the introduction of
welfare for dependent children was not necessarily beneficial to the welfare
recipients. Black families suffered the most, but surely it didn't help the
statistics on out-of-wedlock births, teenage pregnancies, and so on and so
forth. It was a well intended piece of legislation which in the long run was
perhaps even harmful to the fabric of society.

        The welfare state, born at the time of economic boom in Europe, was
spending more and more, giving more and more for less and less. Thus, in
Germany people have six weeks of vacation in addition to God knows how many
sick and personal days. The result: loss of competetiveness. The expenses
incurred on such luxuries as two-week paid spa cures every second year for
all Germans meant higher and higher taxes until it is simply not worth
making more money because practically all of it will be paid out in form of
taxes. Unemployment insurance/welfare in Germany is so high that many people
are not even looking for work; they are quite happy to live on the generous
benefits.

        Hungary is not Germany of course, but the Hungarian welfare
state--maybe because it is so inefficient--is even more expensive than in
Western Europe. The population gets actually very little although 65-70
percent of their salaries go for the maintenance of this so-called welfare
state. And what do they get for it: not very good medical care and a
miserable pension not enough to live on. If Germany cannot afford the
welfare state as it exists now--Hungary surely can't afford it. As Zoli
Fekete mentioned one-third of the population isn't working, and within a few
years half of the population will be on pension. So, please, tell me how
these welfare states, with low birth rates, and longer and longer life
expectancy will survive economically, unless they change the current system
for something less lavish.

        And one more word, Joe. You who is trumpeting tolerance shouldn't
write letters like you did today. It smacks of intolerance and hatred.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Benke Tibor:

> Now for my question.  I don't recon, dispite what Eva Balogh may think,
> that it can be rationaly decided which philosopher is more important.  What
> one may guess, depends on which balcony of the Tower of Babel, (which
> academic discipline) one is approaching the question from.  But I wonder
> which was more authentic?  It seems to me that Lukacs is ahead in this
> respect, and that Heidegger would be closer or even equal to him, if he had
> acted on his National Socialist sympathies.  Coments?
What do you mean by 'acting on his National Socialist
sympathies'? These sympathies ended as early as in 1934.
(When the sympathies of Chamberlain and Daladier toward
Adolf Hitler just began.) Should have he killed somebody
as Lukacs did, or what?
                                               Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:26 AM 8/26/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz  wrote:
>Gabor Farkas said:

>Gabor I do understand exactly what you are talking about. The major
>problem is that the govt allowed on the one side a rise in consumer
>prices witout the benfit of pay raises.

But the government did not "allow" anything and cannot cause "pay raises".
The free market did it.


>One cannot instantly re-arrange the cost structure to western standards
>without a lot of pain.
>For example...in HU the cost of housing (extremely subsidized) was only about
>10% of their total income, as compared to close to 35-40% in the West.
>Ditto with the food, tranport, etc. the HU's are in sticker shock and have
>no idea of how to get out of this quagmire. They used to be able to
>afford to go out to restaurants, theatre, etc. yet it has become more
>expensive than the average HU can afford.

The problem is that the cost of food takes (and always did take) away a much
higher percentage of the Hungarian income than a that of those in developed
Western countries. This more than balances the relatively low cost of
housing. You are talking about pain; the reality is starving retirees.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: child molestors!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for the response, but the answers are vague and only opinions again.
> Your arguments seem so weak. You throw around "god" and child molestor
> fears w/o rhyme or reason.
>>>>Now where did you get such an idea from? You are the one bringing
>>>>up child molestors. One can pollute the mind of a child very easily
>>>thus that is what I meant. You are right when you say that there are
>>>>many more of those in Heteros.
> 1) What is against this god's nature? Love and a relationship?  Is it gods
>    nature to just condemn cut everything into a black/white world? What a sad
>    god and boring creation.
>>> here you go again...perhaps I am missing somethiong here???
>>> There si nothing wrong with LOVE. You seem to be confusing love & sex.
>
> 2) Helping people develop in a positive way is NOT destroying ANY family.
>    Tesse'k!
>    Does one man marrying another mean you must divorce your wife???

>>>>: WHAT??? sorry Mark this does not make any sense to me!

  So, do
>    you think not allowing gays to marry will make heterosexual marriages
>    perfect and make everyone marry boy-girl?
>>>> Neither does this Mark. Who ever said that it will?? Let us not
be#$@%^
>
> 3) AIDS is EVERYONE'S disease in Africa and most of Europe! Heterosexuals hav
e
>    been suffering from venereal diseases and MANY other plagues for centuries
!
>    So this is a poor argument.  What is evident by AIDS, then? Just a
 careless,
>    inept god?  So, heterosexuals in the Americas don't get AIDS either?
 Aren't
>    moral people protected?
>>> You bet Ya! I guarnatee it that if both sides of a hetro realtionship
>>> are faithful (as God intended) then you will NOT have any sexaully
>>> transmitted diseases!
>
> 4) No one polluted the psyches of children!  The Catholic Church and my
 parents
>    tried to recruit my sister all their life, but she is still a lesbian.
>    Heterosexuals are always trying to recruit youngsters.  YOU try to recruit
>    youngsters, because you have a fixation with controling what they think an
d
>    hear!
>
>>>> Pehaps one reaason some of the church wants to take children is
becasue they have not yet been absorbed. It is always nicer to have a
virgin as they say (whether literally or otherwise!)

> Who says homosexuals want your children... besides you?
I did not say you want them (although that possibility exists) What I
said was that until they are of age as a parent they have the right to
prevent your homo philosophy etc. from being infiltrated into their lives.

  Wasn't that news about
> the pervert in Belgium who killed and raped girls sad? Why are heterosexuals
 so
> disturbed?  They already have so many advantages.  Stastically it is even
 shown
> that heterosexuals are clearly the majority of child molestors!  ... But don'
t
> you want to criminalize and marginalize heterosexuals!!??
>> Perhaps I am missing something again. There are unfortunately many
perverts and some are more than others. I do not condone killing of children,
unborn babies, hos, heteros or whatever. Mark WADR I think you are too
sensitive to this issue. You seem to be taking things a bit personally
perhaps? Of the main "sins" (there are more than the 10) it does not mean
that doing one means you should be killed necessarily. It may mean that
you do not get on the good side of the creator.

I do have one wish.....that there will be a time when all my questions
(as I am sure yours) will be answered. There are mnay things that in todays
complex and confused world we cannot surely and positively state. There
seem to be now only shades of gray. I beleve that the basic problem now
is the war between good and evil. Evil is using the weapon of confusion
to make things that should be not and vice versa.

  Of course not! You
> are one and you try to be a fairly decent person. There are many homosexuals
> just as decent as you.

>> I do not disagree......Perhaps if one looks at the history of the Roman
/Christian church from the start we will find, after lots of painstaking
research, that many many many things have been 'perverted' from the
original truth. This is also true if you look at Islam, Judaism, etc.
 >
> Repeat: If I had a god, it would have valued everything it made.  Not classif
y
> everything and put it in some freakish patriarchal heirarchy. My god, it
 seems,
> would have made less ambiguities and mistakes than yours.  My god wouldn't
> misdirect diseases and wouldn't probably make strong natural laws so easy to
> "naturally ignore!" My god even made bisexuals.  Its world is not black/white
> it is full and some black and white and many beautiful nuances of gray.
>
> I am talking about giving homosexuals equal chances in living.  Why do you
 men-
> tion heterosexual problems in Brazil? If they can't handle their sexual prac-
> tices, than let them suffer the consequences.  There are many gays perfectly
> able to handle their sexual practices, and that has nothing to do with Brazil
.
>
> I am glad I am not a Christian, because they often seem so unsatisfied with
> their god's creation.  They often have to change this and exterminate that,
> label this and outlaw that.  I feel sorry for so many native cultures that
 were
> killed out by the love of the Christ and law of god.
>>
Well you are partially right...too bad you are not a christian (perhaps
not a bleiver in God -- that is your God and my God)
There were many sins committed in the name of the Lord by so called
religious fanatics...but that is another story.  That does not mean that
there is no god nor does it mean that there is no Christ!
>
> What does your god do?  You and many others seem to already be doing the
> judging for it. You all can judge right and wrong for multitudes of people.
> So, what does your god have to do?
>
> As an extra point: ABORTION WAS OUTLAWED IN ROMANIA, AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT A
> WONDERFUL ARRANGEMENT THAT WAS!
>
> - Mark
>
>>>> Well one wrong does not prevent another. If they did allow free love
in Romania, as in many communist countries, outlawing abrotion still did
not prevent their decline into the abyss.
BTW--- I think that we need mandatory marriage classes for all those people
who get married for the wrong reasons. Look at how many tragedies could
be prevented.

Thats all for now..
Peter
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:49 PM 8/26/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Joe Szalai either misunderstands what Gabor and many others are
>saying about the welfare state or he is so wound up on this subject that
>rational discourse simply cannot be conducted with him on this matter.

Did I misunderstand?  Here's what Gabor Farkas wrote:

"At 07:43 PM 8/25/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz gave us a large number of sources
that justify the abolition of the welfare state.

Peter, except of a few on this list (Joe Szalai, Eva Durant - by the way
where is she?), you are preaching to the converted."

And here is what Peter Soltesz wrote:

"Stop all subsidies for everyone [except retired people]
then let the chips fall where they may, but very soon after that ..."

You, Eva Balogh, may not be talking about he abolition of the welfare state,
but your economic cohorts certainly are.  Gabor tells Peter that he is
"preaching to the converted".  These are his words, not mine.  Read his
writing and maybe, just maybe, ask Gabor what he means by "abolition of the
welfare state".

>I'm
>afraid it is the latter. It is enough to read some of Joe's sentences and
>one realizes that such deep passion, perhaps even hatred toward those who
>don't agree with him, exists in Joe's soul that I don't even know why we are
>bothering to talk with him about it.

Then don't!  And don't question my passion, either.  It's source is not
hatred, but keep thinking that if you find it comforting.  At least that way
you won't have to answer any of the concerns that I may have expressed.
You'll just declare that I'm seething with hatred and should be ignored.
Fine.  You win.

>        And one more word, Joe. You who is trumpeting tolerance shouldn't
>write letters like you did today. It smacks of intolerance and hatred.

Why?  Should I accept the new catechism, the new economic thinking, with the
same gullibility that you do.  Sorry, but I have more dignity than that.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:31 PM 8/26/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>Farkas Gabor:
>
>> I am sorry, I never slapped my son on his face (or anywhere else).

>Gabor, this story is not about you, or me, or somebody
>else. It is about a psychical process which could turn
>a child into a rebel against any kind of authority,
>putting him in the risk of becaming  a social outcast,
>homo-x, etc.

What process caused you to become a social outcast, Zoli?  Did it already
start in Hungary or do you think you're still experiencing culture shock?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:47 PM 8/26/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>Joe:
>
>> And to think that this is the same Zoli Szekely who likes to lecture people
>> on "asymmetrical thinking".
>Very nice Joe!! You just kill me, and you may forget all
>of this stuff about asymmetrical thinking... However I
>hate to say, but there is a bad news for you, boy: you
>guys may eliminate me (you revolutionists just love to
>eliminate people), but the thing still remains the same.
>
>                                               Sz. Zoli
>

There's no need to get philosophical, Zoli.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter asked me to forward this for him if it didn't make it to the list -
I dont' think it has, so here it goes (my apologies if this ends up being
duplicate):

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:09:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter A. Soltesz >
To: 
Subject: Re: Unaffordability of Hungary

Zoli:
The problem is not just cuttg taxes, but also how to start up the country.
The govt needs to reduce inflation Hu to say 10%. You know here in the
states when
we got to interest rates of 16+% a few years back it really hurt the economy.
How can HU's move forward if the inflation rate is 25+% ??
One cannot even borrow to do anything!!! The HU's are in a spinning tire
mode!
They cant go forward (no traction - no economy/wrok/etc.) yet they have
expenses (ice) which makes them continue to try to get blood out of stone.
So after they sell (sold) most of the stuff to foreigners and then they
spent the money, where are HU's going to go??? Backward I suppose!
(They are already sliding backwards). The issue is that they have to do BOTH.
Cut spending AND cut taxes...else this non-sense will continue and most
likely have another revolution on their hands. [Here is an example where
the rich get richer --or those in power do, and the poor get poorer]
There will be a time when this will explode (at this rate sooner than later).

I also disagree with your comments opn Bokros. They did not let him cut
to the bone (what shlould have been doen -- he was made into a scapegoat
by the politians] so everyone hated Bokros, when in fact the govt wanted
to do the same thing. I give him lots of good points. The politics took hold
and they forced him out by being un-cooperative!

BTW -- I have info about the govt waste and inefficiency in HU. That is
where I would start FIRST!
Peter
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:58 PM 8/26/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Oh brother!  What incredible nonsense.  You want the abolition of the
>welfare state?  Get real!!

Finally, a good debate on a noncontroversial issue. I think that I should
explain what I mean by welfare state: a state that takes my hard earned
money away and gives it to those who refuse to make the smallest effort to
earn a living.

>The only thing you and your fellow travellers

I don't know who my fellow travellers are, I can speak for myself, so can
others for themselves.

>have been converted to, is to
>gullibly believe all the nonsense that spews from the mouths of the sexually
>maladjusted, socially inadequate, and intellectually bankrupt neo-liberals
>who spend most of their time masquerading as thoughtful, concerned
>neo-conservatives.

What is sexuality doing here?

>  What bullshit!  Why, even the wool they're trying to
>pull over people's eyes is 90 percent polyester!  But who cares so long as
>people are buying it.  Right?

I missed the essence of this paragraph.

>Do you see the welfare state being abolished anywhere?  No!  But why disturb
>your intellectual stupor, your comfort, and your property, when you can
>wallow in the mindless agitation and political control that your psudo
>economic remedies provide.  Why, indeed?

Why, indeed? Tell me please, why?

>Whether you and your fellow travellers like it or not, modern capitalism and
>the welfare state go together hand in glove.  Abolish one and you abolish
>the other.  It's that simple.  But don't believe me.  Look around the globe
>and tell me where the flourishing welfare-free capitalist states are
>located.  There aren't any, are there?  However, there are plenty of states
>that don't have welfare.  Why aren't you living there?  Why aren't any of
>your fellow travellers living there?  You know, it's very easy writing
>economic prescriptions for Hungary when you live in Canada, the United
>States, or Australia.

You can remove the US from the list. Fellow socialist Clinton just signed
the new welfare law.

>  You get to stay comfy, and the well-off in Hungary
>get to be better-off.  And the rest are screwed.  But this isn't a new idea.
>It's not a revolutionary act.  It's an old reactionary idea, caused by some
>kind of personal insecurity, and it's called greed.  But why stop lapping it
>up!  After all, you 'earned' it.

You bet I did. No one gave me anything.

>Abolising the welfare state means abolishing pensions for senior citizens.
>And why not?  They're old and useless anyway.  They'll just die a few years
>earlier.  No big deal!

Let's be real. I did not say that. After all my father is a
pension-receiving senior citizen in Romania. So, I am part of an interest group
.

>Abolishing the welfare state means abolishing all forms of medical care for
>those who can't afford it.  And, once again, why not?  If the poor rot and
>die at least there'll be fewer of them around to menace us and I'll have
>more money in MY pocket.  I'm starting to like your plan, Gabor!  I just
>adore money, you know.  It's the only thing I live for.  Do we have at least
>that much in common?

Joe, you are putting words in my mouth, words I never said.

>Abolish the welfare state and the poor will steal from you.  Some will be
>clever enough to sell drugs to your children and grandchildren and at least
>they'll be proud enough because they're financially self supporting.  And I
>wouldn't blame them one bit.

I would. I don't buy the bullshit that the only way out of poverty is crime.
When I arrived to the US I was penniless, I am not rich but comfortable,
never committed a crime.

>Abolish the welfare state and the number of people living in 'walled or
>controlled communities' will increase.  And those people will be able to
>enjoy their golden acre because they can no longer enjoy the world.  But why
>let a socially myopic view change your philosophy?

I don't see the relationship.

>Abolish the welfare state and we all lose.  Guaranteed!

Sounds like the car salesman I met recently. He kept telling me: Trust me!

I think we went through this debate several times during the last year.
Maybe we should do it like in the joke about the asylum: number the
arguments and to save Internet bandwidth, just send the numbers, like this:

Joe:  1, 4, 87, 96

Gabor: 23, 5, 65

Eva: 7 to Joe's 4 and 85 to Gabor's 23.

And so on.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> The problem is not just cuttg taxes, but also how to start up the country.
 Well, we're together so far, sort of: I'd much rather put starting up
the country first, rather then the pie-in-the-sky supply-sideism you seem
to espouse; if there was the remotest chance that just cutting taxes
would do any good I'd be there clapping, but unfortunately it has yet to
work in even countries with well-functioning economies, and in Hungary
your suggested experiment would merely make the government and state
collapse right on those you're supposed to help with the measure...

> The govt needs to reduce inflation Hu to say 10%.
 But then the time has expired when it was the govt power to declare what
the inflation would be. And good riddance, we should say - how can you
not see the incongruence with your position of crying out for more market
economy and at the same time denounce everything that comes with it,
inflation and falling standards of living before all?

> You know here in the  states when
> we got to interest rates of 16+% a few years back it really hurt the economy.
 I know it did. But then so did the oil price explosion which was the root
cause of the problem. And can tell you that you wouldn't like what the
analysis of that crisis would do to your theory ;-(...

> How can HU's move forward if the inflation rate is 25+% ??
 With grave difficulties, of course; but even if there were some
artificial means for holding that down the underlying problems wouldn't
just go away. In any event, the Bokros-Medgyessy course seems to be the
most succesful so far in countering it (I think this is the first year
since '89 that they have a serious hope of getting down to around 20%);
cutting away revenues and let the deficit run wild is not going to do it
for sure. And your suggestion of doing away with the VAT itself (even
without the fiscal consequence) may lead to heated-up consumption adding
to inflationary pressure!

>[...]
> So after they sell (sold) most of the stuff to foreigners
 You seem to have some axe to grind against privatization - are they
supposed to keep factories under government control and run like the old
socialist days or what?

> Cut spending AND cut taxes...
 Encore No.4: which further spendings to cut? I have shown you the numbers
(and there's more details, if you'd like to dwelve, up in
<http://www.meh.hu/egyeb/kvtv/1996/kvtv96.htm>;). As far as I, or for that
matter any expert or politician who's spoken, could see there are
altogether nowhere nearly as much spending to cut to pay for your tax cut.

>[...]
> BTW -- I have info about the govt waste and inefficiency in HU. That is
> where I would start FIRST!
 I'm sure there are perhaps hundreds of millions of forints wasted there.
But starting there would take you a very short way when your ideas would
cost hundreds of billions!

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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