Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 721
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-07-08
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  347 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind)  489 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
4 Historical Causation (mind)  170 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Historical Causation (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: price of flight (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Historical Causation (mind)  83 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind)  167 sor     (cikkei)
13 I do not want on this list! Someone please tell me how (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  217 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Historical Causation (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: price of flight (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 7:22 PM 7/6/96 Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 09:28 PM 7/5/96 -0700, Tibor Benke wrote:
>
>>TB>> In short, Eva is the sort of historian, of whom there are still,
>>TB>> unfortunately, too many, who believes that the most important part of
>>TB>> hitory is to recunstruct the 'facts'.
>>>
>George Antony:
>
>>>You just HAD to get this little piece of ad hominem off your chest, did you?
>>
>>
>>Had I intended an 'ad hominem' argument, I would have used words like,
>>"narrow minded", "arrogant", , "pedantic", etc.
>
>        I'm so glad that you didn't!! I  feel much better hearing about
>physicists and mathematicians.
>
>
>>Rather, I pointed to the different assumptions or premises Eva and I use
>>when thinking about history and society.
>
>        Doesn't matter what "assumptions or premises" you are offering, you
>cannot make a capitalist country out of Russia in 1917.


My point at the time was, that although Russia was not a capitalist
country, the capitalist world system was already operational, there was, in
other worlds a single world economy, such that changes in one country had
effects in others.  It was especcially operational on the level which Marx
called the "superstructure" in that Russian intellectuals were being
educated in the west, the Russian Aristocracy looked to France for its
culture and ideas.  But capitalism had effects on Russia in terms of
investment flows and market phenomena.  The Aristocracy, for example, was
stashing a goodly portion of its wealth, which it could have invested in
Russia, in Swiss and German Banks.  She was also selling grain in world
markets.  (For an explanation of this sort of phenomenon in a Latin
American context, see Andre Gunder Frank's seminal essay, "The Development
of Underdevelopment" also E Wallerstein, _World Systems Theory_, also Peter
Worsley _Three Worlds_ and last but not least Eric Wolfe _Europe and the
People Without History)

>>Though, I admit, there may have
>>been a trace of resentment in the way I frazed my point.   For this I
>>apologize, it is just that, most likely, she and I have spent roughly the
>>same time in academic endevours, yet, in contrast to her credentials, I
>>have only my B.A. from Simon Fraser University to show for my efforts. (Not
>>a bad school, not bad for a stupid person like me, but not in the same
>>league as Yale).
>
>        It is beyond me why anyone would resent someone else's academic
>career. After all, you didn't want to be a professor of history and
>therefore you didn't have to go to graduate school. I did, and I was good
>enough to be accepted by all the universities I applied to.

Actually, when I started what I laughingly call my academic career, I
wanted to be a highschool History teacher.  My last paper in highschool was
a 30 page study of the Hungarian Rebellion of '56.  As it happens, in order
to get a BA in history at Sacramento State (now CSUS), one had to take a
course in either Anthropology, Sociology, or Geography.  In my first
semester, I took two history courses, one English course, and an
Anthropology course.  The English course was based on Bloomfield's
structural linguistics, and I learned that all the grammar I was tought in
Highschool was nonsense from a linguist's point of view.  This was quite a
mindbender for me, since I had suffered much at the hands of my highschool
English teachers.  But what was even more startling was reading Bronslaw
Malinowsky's _Argonauts of the Western Pacific_ in tandem with Thomas
Khunn's _Structure of Scientific Revolutions_ .  I immediately saw that one
could never understand history with out understanding anthropology.  So I
switched majors.  As for my resentment, it was directed at no person, I am
just  a little miffed because my efforts have not brought the rewards they
might have.

>>Nevertheless, I was attempting to raise the debate from the general tone
>>usually prevailing on this list of negated _Animal Farm_ chanting: "Free
>>enterprise good! Socialism bad!"  As usual, I failed.
>
>        This is not what you were doing. You said, and let us repeat it for
>sake of accuracy, that
>"Communism was a consequence of Capitalism, have we learned anything?" and
>when I asked for clarification; i.e., do you mean by "Communism" the
>Bolshevik Revolution and its aftermath in Soviet Russia/Soviet Union, you
>said, yes. So, let's just stick with "facts."
>

I also belaboured the point that 'facts' are meaningless without context --
 Russia when viewed in isolation may seem to be an underdeveloped country
which hadn't yet even fully reached the feudal stage, but Russia cannot be
viewed in isolation in 1917 because it was by then merely an underdeveloped
region of a global Capitalist economy.  It is a matter of *perspective* or
*levels of analysis*.  I cannot believe you don't understand that. You have
a Ph.D. from Yale for pity's sake.



>>I could dismiss the failure two ways.  First, I could just admit that I am
>>stupid and insane, wake up, smell the coffee and join the rest of you and
>>help destroy the planet by the end of the next century.
>
>       Now, come on. Just because I maintain that Lenin's Bolshevik
>revolution had mighty little to do with a capitalist order in Russia, it
>doesn't mean that I want to destroy the planet. Or, perhaps according to
>your "philosphy and perspective" it does. But if it does, I am afraid I
>can't follow your soaring thoughts!

If you fail to see a relatively simple cause and effect relationship in the
global historical proccess, and you are one of the smarter people in this
world (certified) then I have little hope for the continued survival of
humanity.

>>Or I could decide
>>that you are all too dense and beyond salvation and curse you to your fate.
>> I admit, I lean toward the second alternative, except...
>
>        Again, why am I dense? Because I don't think that the capitalism was
>responsible for Soviet Bolshevism? You see, perspective is not enough. It
>would help you to read a few books about nineteenth-century Russia.
>

See above.

>>Except, there is a deeper problem that should be addressed.  It is best
>>illustrated by Jeliko's little unfunny joke:
>
>        <little "unfunny joke" follows about high-school graduation>
>
>
>>The case being that teachers in working class and poor neighborhoods
>>('specially if they mess with YUUNIOONS) are incompetent and their students
>>are too stupid to learn anyway.  If the joke were about blacks, it would be
>>racist, if it were about blind or deaf people, it would be ableist,  but
>>being 'cognitively challenged' is still a euphemism for being stupid, and
>>being stupid is still an excuse for oppressing people.
>
>        My God! How did we get from the Bolshevik revolution to teachers in
>working class and poor neighborhoods? Perhaps because there is another
>thread about teachers, teaching, high schools, and unions.

Actually, that too.  But we are talking about classism and intellectual
arrogance.

> And what baffles
>me most is the mention of "being 'cognitively challenged' [which] is still a
>euphemism for being stupid, and being tupid is still an excuse for
>oppressing people."

By way of looking for underlying causes of ideological blind spots.

>        I find it difficult to believe what I am reading! First of all,
>let's have straight talk. Some of the readers of HUNGARY might not know that
>Tibor Benke is talking about himself when he talks about "cognitively
>challenged" people. We have heard many, many times that he is cognitively
>challenged and in spite of all the explanations he offered we still don't
>quite know what it means to be cognitively challenged. It also seems that
>the Canadian welfare authorities were not very sure what it meant either. I
>took them a few years of convincing to realize the nature of the illness.

My being cognitively challenged has little to do with the Canadian Welfare
Authorities' clssification of me.  I am on welfare because I have Multiple
Sclerosis.  Unfortunately the neurologist that diagnosed that condition
didn't think it was serious enough to warrant labeling me 'disabled',
because my conversation sounds like I am otherwise normal, he thought I
could be retrained for work other then the manual work I was employed at at
that time.  Had he certified me as disabled, I'd now be living in Lilafured
on my metropolitan Life long term disability insurance, fixed at 75% of my
position's current salary, (maybe C$2,000 p/m)He couldn't have known, and I
wouldn't have admitted to myself at the time, that I also suffer from what
is now called A.D.D. (Attention Deficit Disorder  -- though I think this
label has some unwarranted epystemological assumptions inbeded in it).
Basicaly, it is a different way of cognitive functioning, that makes
certain cognitive tasks difficult to accomplish.  Prior to the penetration
of the need to concentrate a certain way, it went unnoticed, but today it
is becoming more and more frequently diagnosed.  As usual, with our modern
attitude, it is labeled a disorder and the individual who 'suffers from it'
has to be 'cured', because it is humans who must adapt to technology rather
then technology being adapted to humans.  The condition which is labeled
A.D.D., of course has disadvanteges, but it also has advanteges as well.
One of them is being to see connections between things like:

>        So, Tibor Benke for some strange reason thinks that my professional
>opinion on the origins of the Bolshevik Revolution has something to do with
>his being "cognitively challenged."

What it has to do, is that if I, as a cognitively challenged person with
hardly any background in History, can understand the relationship between
the Bolshevik revolution and global capitalism, then you as a professional
should be able to understand why one might think so, even if, in your
professional judgement, I am wrong.  If I am wrong, you should be able to
show how global economic forces had a negligible effect on Russia of the
time, and not merely assert it _ex catedra_.  Maintaining that Russia was a
backward agricultural state, is not alone sufficient.  And if you can't see
that, then a Yale degree is worth a lot less then I thought.

 >Somehow I don't take his ideas seriously
>because I think that he is stupid!

Yes! I do have that impression.  Either that, or the curse of the Tower of
Babel is upon us, and though I think we speak the same languages, what I
say, is not what you hear.

>I must admit that I don't quite know
>what, in practical terms, it means to be "cognitively challenged," and in
>case it means "stupid" I don't think that this is Tibor Benke's problem when
>it comes to capitalism, communism, the destruction of the environment, and
>everything else you might come up with. Rather, I think that his problem is
>being influenced by a far-left ideology. You are out left field somewhere,
>in political never-never land.

Being cognitively challanged, among other things means, that if it were not
for computers and keyboards I couldn't write as well as this because I
can't spell very well.  This post has already taken me some six hours at
the keyboard, but if I were  doing it on a typewriter, I'd have whiteout
all over everything and be in danger of getting buried under wrinkled up
paper.  As with my Multiple Sclerosis, it is a tolerably mild case and
until I came down with that too, I was functioning well enough to pass for
normal and to maintain denial.
>
><Long story about Tibor's inability to memorize the multipication table. Let
>me add that I am terrible at math but I don't consider myself cognitively
>challenged.>

More's the pity.  I have learned to cope much better now that I've stopped
denying it only about five years ago.  Before that I used to have
unaccountable rages whenever some problem from fitting two machine parts
together to filling out a tax form defeated me.  Now I just take a few deep
breaths, accept that it will take me longer, and deal with it.

>
>>My point is, that it seems, that in our culture it is still o.k. to exploit
>>people if they are less intelligent, just as in the late neolithic and
>>until the rise of Christianity and beyond, it was o.k. to exploit people
>>who were weaker.
>
>        Did I want to exploit you because I argued with you about the
>origins of the Bolshevik Revolution?

No!  What makes you say that?  I have nothing but the highest regard for
you.  You spend your time sharing information with us, some of which is
very good too.   I doubt if you have exploited anyone directly. We all
exploit indirectly, for example, when we buy banannas or coffee. Morever,
you have worked hard and are doing the best you can for society according
to your lights, which is all we can expect of anyone.

I am talking about social processes which are part of the way our culture
functions.  These processes are invisible to most of us like the air we
breathe.  We notice them only by willfully focusing our attention.



>>Well, inumeracy and illiteracy are darned inconvenient, but not a moral
>>shortcoming.  The cause of these conditions, however, is greatly magnified
>>by our classism.
>
>        Illiteracy is darned incovenient all right. But again, what does
>that have to do with the Bolshevik Revolution. Perhaps that there were a lot
>of illiterate people in Russia, although after the 1860s illiteracy was
>great deminishing in the Russian Empire.


Nothing.  Yeliko's joke, the story about my neighbor's view of Native
rights and my being cognitively challenged, were all brought up to
illustrate the prevalence of a set of widespread attitudes in our society:
attitudes that the rich have toward the poor, attitudes that the able have
towards the disabled, attitudes that nature is here for our use, and I
could go on, but I would just loose you more.

>
>>Or to put it another way, education  (and I am talking about the whole
>>system of education of a given social formation, including informal things
>>such as sports, media, and parenting, as well as pre-school through
>>universities and research institutes) has two social functions.  Its overt
>>function is to produce and reproduce the totality of social knowledge.  The
>>other, underlieing function, is to produce and reproduce the division of
>>labour and wealth and knowledge.   In a class society, this division is
>>unequal and the inequality is maintained by features of ideology and
>>culture as well as force.
>
>        Maybe I should'nt ask because you might oblige, but could you
>explain what you mean by all that gibberish? Can you imagine, although I am
>not cognitively challenged, I absolutely loath stuff like the above. I can't
>quite follow it.
>
.OK< I'll try to make it more clear.

Every society, if it is to continue to exist, must have knowledge of the
world sufficient to get its living from it.  (please write to me if I am
being unclear)

Every society, if it is to continue to exist, must transmit its knowledge,
more or less intact to the next generation.

Every society, if it is to continue to exist, must aquire or produce knew
knowledge to meet new circumstances.

Let us call what we said above "production and reproduction of knowledge"

Let us call the means by which a society fulfills these functions, its
education system.  Thus the notion of "education system" here includes more
then just schools, but all the ways in which knowledge is produced and
reproduced.

Now, if we think of a relatively "simple"  society, say the !Kung or San
people of the Kalahari, we find that the knowledge of that society is
relatively evenly distributed.  A shaman might know more then everybody
else, and older people will know more then younger people, women might have
knowledge specific to women only, and similarly men might now hunting magic
that is kept from women, but more or less everybody knows everything there
is to know  and new knowledge spreads relatively quickly.  And school is
not neccessary.  (Wasn't in the anthropologist's "dreamtime", the
ethnographic present)

In contrast, a more complex society will have different knowledge at
different levels and even within levels there will be differences according
to specializations, fishermen will know things different from carpenters.
New knowledge, as it is discovered will have to be assigned its place.

As a complex societies reproduce and produce their knowledge, they also
have to insure that they reproduce the social structure such that in each
new generation there will be enogh of every sort of person that's needed.
This is the second function of education.  To allocate knowledge such that
each person knows what they need to to fulfill their roles, and is ignorant
of anything that might make them take someone else's place.  (You don't
want the servants to know too much -- nothin's worsn' an uppity servant, an
wipe that smirk off'n yer face and don'be so smart!)

If you watch the actual social interactions in schools, you can see the
selective processes at work.  Most disciplinary procedures, for example,
have little pedagogical efficacy and actually impeade learning and this is
well known and documented.  (See John Holt _Why Johny Can't Read_, Ivan
Illich _De-Schooling Society_ A.S. Neil _Summerhill_).

>>And just for the sake of maintaining Hungarian content, do you think it is
>>genetics or culture that makes most Hungarians regardless of background, or
>>political orientation pedantic and intolerant?  I suffer from it myself,
>>(though I make an effort to suppress it)  so I was just wondering.
>
>        It must be "genetic." Oh, yes, we are all pedantic and intolerant.
>Thank God, though, not all "cognitively challenged."
>

Amen

Tibor Benke

Heraclitus was right, Change is constant
No, no, he was wrong, Change is variable
+ - Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

First of all, I need to apologize to Charles Vamossy for the tardiness of
this post.  Unfortunately, though I am probably less busy then most readers
and contributors to this list, each of these posts requires a
great deal more time than the average poster would need.

Secondly, I do want to keep this debate within the mandate of the list, so
I need to preface it by referring to what relevance I see in these musings
to the situation in my poor homeland.

As Hungarian society is in the process of transforming itself from a
colonial dependency of the Soviet Empire, to an ostensibly 'free'
democratic state, each citizen needs to orient him- or herself politically
or ideologically so the nation can set a course for itself that will allow
it to prosper both economically and culturally.  The task of transformation
which the nation faces comes at a time when the pace of change on the
planet as a whole has reached an unprecedented velocity, and the wrong
choices may have apocalyptic implications.   The volume of argument, of
clashing ideologies, must be cooled, if we want to have even a snowball's
chance in Hell of living through the looming dangers. While I do not
believe that it is humanly possible to free one's self from ideology,
based on the work of the Hungarian philosopher, Karl Mannheim, I think it
is possible to orient one's self among ideologies by using certain
methodological approaches which he developed and described in various
works, especially _Ideology and Utopia_, and showed in practice in his
_Conservatism_.  His work represents a unique contribution from a decidedly
Hungarian perspective, and it will behoove us all to ponder his approach.

Now, during the reign of "actually existing socialism," certain views and
interpetations of history and society arose in both the emigree population
abroad and the brave souls who suffered through the horrors of the tyranny
in the areas which were once "the lands of the Hungarian Crown."  Most
emigrants, those whose voices can be heard, experienced relative prosperity
abroad and most Hungarians who stayed home got glimpses of prosperity in
Austria or West Germany or at least heard of it from those who had.  Those
who became poor in, say, Brazil or Argentina, or even here in Canada, did not
come back to tell their sorry tale.  It is unsurprising, therefore, that
most Hungarians at home and abroad would have a more or less uncritical
view of the accomplishments of the West.  In addition,  because any form of
democratic developments have been, at best, intermittent, the Eurocentric
prejudices that characterised all of Europe since the Roman Empire to the
middle of our century have been preserved somewhat intact in Carpathia,
like perishable food would be in a deep freeze.

What I think I can contribute to the discussion at hand is the perspective
of a member of the emigree population who is an unmitigated failure (as the
world judges these things) and has therefore experienced the West from its
underside.  Further, by a virtue of a fortunate set of circumstances,
having been endowed with a slightly different way of cognitive functioning
and, despite this, being strongly motivated by family traditions to continue
learning throughout my life even at the expense of other demands, I am a
rare kind of figure, a fairly well- educated 'stupid' person -- a stupid
person with a computer and access, for a short time, to the Internet and
this list.

I delineated the topic of Charles' and my debate when I entered this thread.


TB>>In what seems to be a debate about the role of teachers' unions with
TB>>respect to the quality of education, a topic related to the topic of
TB>>this list only tangentially in that Hungary's teachers' unions are
TB>expressing dissatisfaction with both their compensation and the educational
TB>>policies of the government, (what else is new? :-) )

And Charles, very graciously took up the challenge:

CV>Tibor, I agree.. we have strayed far from Hungary as a subject in this
CV>debate.  Perhaps it has some relevancy by way of comparison, though...

He began by reviewing the previous points:

TB>>Charles Vamossy wrote:

CV>>>As far as teachers' pay is concerned, it should be determined by the
CV>>>market, just like any other profession's.

TB>>Let's see, how would this work in practice?  Would we go to Mr./Ms.
TB>>Market and have him or her rule on each teacher's compensation package?
TB>>
TB>>No?
TB>>
TB>>What I am trying to point out is that the market, as such, doesn't
TB>>determine prices and wages or anything else.  The market is a system,
TB>>which, when it is operating more or less freely, *allows* buyers and seller
s
>>to bargain and agree on a price for a good or service.

Then he offered the following elaboration:

CV>The way it works, at least here in the US is that people choose to live in
CV>communities which either place a higher or lower  value on education
CV>and other services. These communities then compete with each other for
CV>the services of teachers with high qualifications and experience.  This
CV>competition (dare I call it a market?) establishes the wages for these
CV>teachers.  The individual homeowners (Mr and Mrs Market, as you put it)
CV>pay for these services through taxes they vote on.

I think you were imprecise.  In the first place, people may feel that they
choose to live in certain communities, but I submit that it can be
demonstrated that these choices are severely constrained by many factors
that individual families have no control over, the most important being the
unequal distribution of wealth and power in society.  I raised three
children.  I would have liked to live in Point Grey or Shaughnessy (two
areas which are
the wealthiest in Vancouver and, coincidentally (?), have the "best"
schools, but since I made my living as a factory worker, I had an
insufficient income to even dream of it.  There are other determining
factors: racism, for example, that despite several centuries of political
struggle, still operates in the real estate market, certainly at the rental
 level, and to some extent, even at the level of ownership.  More
insidiously, it operates at the level of real estate speculation with
practices such as "red lining."

Furthermore, "communities" do not compete; saying they do is shorthand,
like saying that the sun sets, when we know that actually the Earth turns.
What in fact happens is that the designated agent of a given community
(say a school board) might compete in a labour market for teachers.  But
even this is not exactly so, because Capitalist labour markets are almost
always "buyers'" markets-- that is, the supply of teachers nearly always
exceeds the demand.  Thus, it is teachers that compete individually or...

TB> form associations and bargain collectively.  School boards
TB>>are already associations of a sort, and not even voluntary ones, since
>they are agencies of governments.
>
CV>I am not sure where you live, but around here, in New York State,
CV>school boards and school districts are not part of the government.  To
CV>illustrate it, I live in a school district (Valhalla) which comprises
CV>parts of three different townships (Greenburgh, Mount Pleasant and
CV>North Castle). My Township (Greenburgh) has -- I believe 5 or 6
CV>different school districts within it. None of the Towns or the Villages
CV>have any say in any appointments to Superintendent, Principal, Teacher,
CV>or any job within the school district.

As you say, the details differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction; here in
British Columbia, members of school boards are elected in local (municipal
or district) elections and are paid a stipend or _per diem_.  The greater
part of their revenue comes from the provincial government, and, depending
on which political party is in power, they are sometimes given the option
of raising additional funds by property taxes.  School boards, in turn,
have a province-wide association which bargains with the B.C. Federation of
Teachers.  In the end, after many negotiations, a great deal of posturing,
and a lot of noise on the radio call-in shows, the government imposes a
collective agreement.  But ultimately, as you say:


CV>At the same time, I will certainly grant you, however, that there is a
CV>tight association between government and schools.

In other words, some level of government hires and pays teachers.

That said:

TB>>Why then should teachers' right to free
TB>>association be taken away?
>
CV>I don't believe I ever advocated taking that right away.  Teachers are
CV>free to join unions, bowling leagues or country clubs, or whatever.
>
CV>Let's agree on this:  Union represent significant economic advantages
CV>to teachers, bringing them higher compensation (over and above the
CV>market) and better than average benefits.

I am glad you believe in free association.  I agree that unions provide
wages and benefits "over and above" what individual teachers could obtain
without a union. What I don't understand is why you insist that unions are
not part of the market?

It seems to me that it is precisely  at this point where the assymetry in
neo-conservative (more precisely, a derivative of classical liberal)
discourse arises.  Comparisons are always between "actually existing
socialism" and ideal capitalism.  "Actually existing capitalism" includes
unions and collective bargaining.  It may not be pretty, but you should
watch _Matewan_ ( movie you can rent from better video stores) about what
it took to organize a union.

In other words, we have a *historically determinate* (n.b., not determined,
except that it is there *now* as a result of past social struggles) social
situation.  Once upon a time, in the nineteenth century, there were no
teachers' unions.  Teachers were generally anti-union.  If school boards
had treated them fairly, they'd still be anti-union.  They were organized
by great effort in the face of vehement opposition and organized in
desperation.  They won the right to bargain collectively.  Of course, the
process of struggle affected the teachers and they were further altered by
the increased income and job security they won.   Admittedly, certain
rigidities exist where unions are present, but these rigidities are not
there because some evil labour organizers are terrorizing entire
communities and whole staffs of schools, but because the labour leaders and
the structure of unions were formed by these past struggles.  The greater
the resistance at the top to legitimate demands  from the bottom, the more
the stochastic processes in the given system select for millitancy at the
bottom.  In another place and time, it was the Czar's secret police that
created the KGB.

>
CV>What they -- the unions -- DO NOT bring is better education.  That
CV>should not be surprising...  it's simply not their mission to do so.
CV>Some of the best schools may or may not be union shops -- and some of
CV>the worst are the same.

This is certainly true.  The question is: what would be the best solution?  I
submit that it is not the forcible dismantling of public sector unions, because
that will only raise the struggle, which is now tolerably well-contained.
You don't want half those intellectuals out on the street organizing
revolution, eh?

>
>There is, it seems to me, no corelation between the presence of unions
>and good education.  The wealth of the community and the value it
>places on education has high corelation.  High achiver parents tend to
>have high achiever kids who demand and get for them good education,
>wheather in Chapel Hill or Scarsdale.  They pay their teachers above
>average wages.
>

And some people were just born to be servants -- it's what they thought in
the cradle of democracy in 300 B.C. too.


TB>>Someone might reply that unions are not free associations because all
TB>>employees at a job site where there are no "right to work" laws (an
TB>>orvellian concept if ever there was one) may be compelled to join the
TB>union if there is a closed shop.  But a closed shop is merely the
TB>result of a voluntary contract between employers and employees arrived
TB>>through their representatives and no one compells anyone to accept a
job at TB>>a closed shop.
>>
>
CV>This is a bit far fetched for me.  While I understand your argument
CV>that you can choose not to be a teacher anywhere in New York City, it
CV>does not strike me very voluntary.  I also question that it is possible
CV>that exactly 100% of the teachers in New York City have voluntarily
CV>stood up and begged Mr Shanker to let them in the union because in
CV>their hearts and minds they were passionate unionists.  Surely in a
CV>free society it is normal to have SOME people who differ with with the
CV>majority. A 100% YES vote on anything, anywhere is always suspect to
CV>me...

Actually, you can be a teacher in any private school that is non-union --
unless New York is better organized then B.C.  Personally, I think the
decision to work at a closed union shop or not is about as free as the
choice to live in a particular neighborhood or community  (see above)-- a
little more free, actually, when I was organizing, certification required
45% sign-up for the holding of a certification vote and a 60% majority of
the employees to get certified.  After that one still had to win a first
contract.  How much more democratic can it get?

TB>>The attitude Mr. Vamossy seems to project is unfortunately common
TB>>among those whose knowledge of economic relationships consists of memories
TB>>of the Bolshevism of Eastern Europe and the idealism of nineteenth century
TB>>liberalism and an abismal ignorance of the history of left wing
TB>>politics in the West, notably the history of the labour movement in
North TB>>America.

CV>Just for the record and contrary to what anyone may have said about me,
CV>let me state that I have absolutely no memories of the nineteenth
CV>century, economic or otherwise, having been born over 40 years after it
CV>passed. :))


Sorry about the missing comma.  I meant, as your smileys indicate you know,
"nineteenth century liberalism and memories of the Bolshevism of Eastern
Europe." and not "memories of nineteenth century liberalism".

TB>As far a Bolshevism is converned, I have very selected memories of
TB>growing up as a child in Stalinist (Rakosi pajtassal elore!) Hungary,
TB>which I left as a teenager in 56, at that time not exactly a major
TB>participant in the economy there.  If my knowledge of American History
TB>is abismal, (which I do not agree with), it's the result of my American
TB>education.

I was eleven in '56 and seriously contemplating suicide, but that's another
story.  I experienced P.S. 129 in College Point, Queens, as liberating,
until the Italian kids beat me up every other day and I learned the price
of freedom.  As for the relative merits of the pedagogical approaches of
Hungary and the U.S. (where I got my education from grade five to my
junior year at Sacramento State College), neither suited me very well, but,
at least having escaped the Hungarian system, I am still alive.  Anyway,
most people learn little about labour history; what I learned wasn't in
school.

CV>I base my opinions and observations on my life experience and
CV>participation in the work force here in the US, having worked for
CV>decades in New York City in the financial services industry.  Being an
CV>avid reader, I also try to keep abrest of events through the pages of
CV>my home town paper, the New York Times, WSJ, and several weeklies, of
CV>which the Economist is my favorite. No academician, I nevertheless
CV>consider myself to be reasonably well informed (although one can always
CV>learn more...).

I suggest you give a read to the works of Noam Chomsky and Emanuel
Wallerstein and pick up a _Mother Earth News_ and an _Utne Reader_, just
for a fresh perspective.  Even _Atlantic Monthly_ might help or the
_Manchester Guardian Weekly_.

CV>I freely admit that I have little personal experience in left wing
CV>politics other that having a few personal encounters with left wing
CV>politicians and their unfortunate projects that involved my
CV>neighborhood. I am much more familiar with and I generally support
CV>moderate politics and politicians and try to avoid either "wing".

My views changed with the Vietnam War, although I was beginning to move
left with the civil rights movement, certainly after the asassination of
Kennedy.  Ideally, we could all do without politics -- meetings are boring,
for one thing.

TB>>A lot of heads were broken in the course of earning the right to
TB>> bargain collectively for us to go back to when unions were considered
TB>>"associations in restraint of trade".

TB>>It continues to amaze me, that the much praised, so called,
TB>>'entrepreneurial' class has not thought of a cleverer way to solve
TB>>problems then by brute force and must continue to fight to reverse
reforms TB>>that it allowed when the 'wolf', (or should I say the 'bear')
was at the TB>>door in the late 30's and early 40's.


CV>I readily concede to you that the 10's, 20's and 30's were very
CV>different times than today and that unions had a significant role in
CV>eliminating some of the then current abuses.  Non-union citizen groups,
CV>reform politicians, mainstream political parties and high minded
CV>individual citizens also had an equal if not more important role.  (I
CV>leave the war years out of this, since they were unsual economically
CV>and socially.  During that time unions' power was greatly reduced, in
CV>many cases voluntarily, in the interest of the war effort.)

Here again, in classical liberal fashion, you ignore social process and its
role in shaping not only circumstances, but people and their consciousness.
I hate becoming the house Marxist whenever I talk about these things with
anyone.  I am not a Marxist, but I have been studying sociology where, along
with Max Weber's and Emile Durkheim's works, his cannot be ignored.  The more
confident and less threatened ruling strata in North America, imbued with
the American philosophy of Pragmatism, were flexible enough to change the
class war into social negotiation, sparing America from the revolution that
would have otherwise broken out with the depression in the '30s.  A lot of
the successful reforms were made possible by the vast resources of the
continent which allowed room for economic growth.  Also, the political
structure of the republic was good enough to enable reforms.

CV>You will possibly agree with me the the world has changed
CV>significantly, however, in the last 80,70,60 years. The blind militancy
CV>and selfish self preservation tactics of the old time unions are now
CV>badly out of step with the times. If anyone is living off old memories,
CV>as you suggest,  perhaps they are the ones who still go around
CV>retelling tales from nineteenth century Dickens novels about child
CV>labor and involuntary servitude to justify their existence.

I don't know.  As I walk down East Hastings Street  (the part of Vancouver
you woldn't want to walk in at night,)  I see more and more homeless people.
In the early seventies I was unemployed for a number of years and stood in
line at the casual labour office of Canada Manpower (now Canada
Employment), where I met other casualties of the system.  Later, I worked
as a volunteer at an adult learning centre, where I met a number of the
casualties of the education system as well.  I read in the papers that
while GDP in both the U.S. and Canada has increased, real wages in both
countries have been declining steadily since the '70s. I don't really think
we can give up the reforms of the past without considering what to do with
the victims.  Being poor in this country (Canada) is tolerable because it
is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and because, historically,
it had a strong social democratic party and a powerful labour movement.
Today all this is being dismantled little by little without any clever new
solutions to replace it.  If this continues, Uncle Karl's predictions will
come true yet.  I don't need Dickens stories.  All I need to do is remember
my job at Grace Construction Materials or Dominion Glass-- I could tell you
stories.

CV>Let me share with you an example of anachronistic unionism, as I
CV>experienced it:  our local suburban trains, after a fiery accident a
CV>long time ago, were then required to have a separate "fireman" on board
CV>so that the engineer did not have to add the coal and stoke the fire
CV>while also driving the train.  The union demanded and got this
CV>concession -- a good idea.  After more than half a century passed, our
CV>trains long ago went electric, but the job of "fireman" was still
CV>required, wheather it was needed or not.  The union was clearly not
CV>interested in eliminating the job to benefit the riding public or to
CV>lower the cost of commutation.  Their goal was to keep the railroad
CV>employment rolls high, since employees all paid union dues, which in
CV>turn paid the union leaders salaries and their considerable expenses.

Maybe, if we instituted a corporate layoff tax, equivalent to several
year's salary of every employee that is laid off,  the corporate planners
would take into account the employment of the people whose livelihood
disappears as the machines they worked at become obsolete.   In addition, I
believe, the job description of "fire man" changed as well, and after they
finally got rid of them, railroad accidents increased.

>A few of times they actually shut down the whole railroad, preventing
>over 100,000 people from going to their jobs and earning their living
>for several days or weeks. It finally took two railroad bankruptcies
>and changes of management to somehow eliminate the do-nothing,
>"featherbedding" job.

Had those people all gone on strike too, think how fast they would have
settled the contract.  Seriously though, it is in situations like this that
I wonder where the much touted entrepreneurial genius of the employers is?
Surely in fifty years they could have negotiated some way of getting rid of
the fire men decently.  But if I were a fire man with a grade eight
education, 40 years seniority, and 58 years old, you bet I'd shut down half
the Eastern Seaboard, if I could, rather then go on Pataki's workfare.

CV> That was also the time they eliminated
CV>physically punching a hole into each monthly pass twice every day,
CV>which were sold only at ticket counters and which required four
CV>conductors per train.The railroad introduced monthly passes mailed to
CV>customers which are now visually inspected twice a day by only two
CV>conductors and no "fireman".  So much for progress, reforms and
CV>unions...

Progress is all very well, as long as it is not your job that gets eliminated.

TB>>Maybe Uncle Karl was right, bourgeoise consciousness *is* determined
TB>after all?
>>
>
CV>Let's leave old Karl resting in his London grave...  If he was really
CV>as smart as they say he was -- which we don't know, since he personally
CV>never put his ideas in practice anywhere (and his followers sure as
CV>hell botched up the lives of millions for decades) -- maybe he too
CV>would be for curbing the overgrown power of unions, if he were around
CV>today.

I'd love to, but I have a queasy (kwasy) feeling he'll come to haunt us
yet.  I don't think any of his ideas were put in practice anywhere, nor do
I think they can be.  He wrote critiques, not utopian plans.  The policies
implemented by world Bolshevism came from the socialist movement rooted in
the posivitism of Comte.  The demands of the Manifesto were implemented by
Roosevelt, as his enemies never ceased to point out.

TB>>Communism was a consequence of Capitalism, have we learned anything?
>>
>
CV>I like to think so...  and we discovered new problems which we will
CV>have to tackle.  Capitalism, to use an old fashioned eighteenth or
CV>nineteenth century word, has reinvented itself many times, reacting to
CV>changing conditions and cataclysmic events.  The advent of unions,
CV>their heyday and now slow demise are part of that story.  Communism, it
CV>seems to me was less fleet-footed and when it finally tried to reinvent
CV>itself, simply collapsed.  I, for one, do not miss it...


Actually, it was pushed a bit.  Remember Starwars and the Evil Empire?  I
don't miss it either.  Though I wonder what kind of deal Gorbachev and
Reagan made that stormy day on that ship in the Mediterranean?  But I don't
think Capitalism reinvented itself.  It is not a person, it is a
social/historical process.  It gives rise to new features all the time, but
it is not a self-sustaining system.  This is even more apparent now, as our
"productive capacity" comes closer to exhausting the resources of the
planet.  What we really must do is revisit the direction we took as a
species in the neolithic, when mythically speaking, the Fall occurred.  We
have to re-examine the work ethic, and the superstitious belief that
present suffering is what is needed for future well-being.  This has become
a sucker's game, and it is now endangering all of us.

Actually existing socialism, I still maintain, is a consequence of actually
existing capitalism.  They are both the children of the modern age, and
ultimately two endpoints of the processes that began in Mesopotamia
approximately 3000 b.c.e. or maybe a millenium or two before that.  Only
the blind do not see that the whole thing was a mistake.  Of course, it
cannot be undone, but if we are to survive, we must repent it, rethink it,
and take an entirely new direction.  What we must remember most of all is
that it is activity that determines consciousness, and not the converse.

As I read the electronic news of Hungary (_Nemzet_, _BLA_, _Hungary
Report_, _Hix Narancs_),  I am saddened and frightened.  What I see is that
the people who jockeyed themselves into advantagous positions through The
Party have now turned into Capitalists, much like the pigs in _Animal
Farm_ turned into farmers.  Ordinary people are no freer then they ever
were, only the minimum standards that a "socialist" state pretended to
maintain are completely gone.  Tough everything has changed, nothing's
changed, the Russian occupiers have been merely replaced by the Ukranian
maffias.  Ten more years and there will be no difference between Hungary
and El Salvador.  And that is the best case scenario.   My nightmare is
that it will be much worse.  The patience of the people will be tried to
the breaking point.  Nemzet is already shrieking about insults to the
Nation, like giving a Kosshuth prize to
Esterhazy and compensation to the Jewish congregations and comparing that
to the "compensation" the average rural smallholder got, and so-forth.  The
prearranged orchestrated war in former Yugoslavia is simmering, and it looks
to me like some "kiserteties" (ghostly) "they" have already decided to
play out WW III in the Carpathian Basin.  All "they" need to do, is create
some incident and away we go.  I hope I am just suffering from paranoia.
May the Queen of Heaven protect you all.

I apologize for the length of this post.  Thank you for your kind attention.

Best regards,

Tibor Benke,
Burnaby, (near Vancouver) British Columbia

+ - Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Tibor Benke and all who had the patience of following this long
thread.

First, Tibor, I'd like to thank you for your civility and obviously
deeply felt reasoning you gave to your last reply. While we still end
up on opposing sides on the issue of unions and social history, at
least I feel I understand your opinions much better and for that, I am
grateful.

At this point I'd like to suggest to you that we end this thread or at
least turn it over to those who have far more personal experience with
the role of (teachers) unions in Hungary.  As Andra1s Kornai correctly
reminds us, we have strayed too far from the declared subject of this
list, which is Hungary.

Thank you again, Tibor, for your contribution and I wish you a very
pleasant summer in one of the  world's most beautiful cities,
Vancouver, Canada.



with best regards,



Charles Vamossy
+ - Historical Causation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

EB Wrote to TB:

>Again, why am I dense? Because I don't think that the capitalism was
>responsible for Soviet Bolshevism? You see, perspective is not enough.
>Did I want to exploit you because I argued with you about the origins
>of the Bolshevik Revolution?

And PH Wrote as well:

>The Germans did finance Lenin in order to get Russia out of the war but
>the revolution probably would have occurred without imperial petty cash.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the defeat of Napoleon and the occupation of Paris in 1814 by
Russian troops, many Russian aristocRATs visited France. The liberal
ideas of the French Revolution appealed to many of them and resulted
in the formation of two secret Masonic lodged (in Russia), the Northern
Star and the Southern Star. Both lodges enlisted as members manu influ-
ential and wealthy Russian nobles. (Baron C. Wrangell-Rokassowsky,
Before the storm)

The secret society had been brought to Russia. In a book entitled Russia
1917, author George Katkov cited the enormous influence the secret
societies had in the Communist Revolution: "There is no doubt...that a
widespread net of conspiratorial organizations modeled on freemason's
lodges worked for revolution in Russia and played a decisive role in the
formation of the first Provisional Goverment." (Gary Allen, Building
Communism)

With the arrival of the secret society, near powerful could conspire to
replace the monarchy as a form of goverment through control over the
Provisional Goverment that replaced the Czar after he abdicated. The
conspirators now had two of the three essential parts of the "pincers
movement" written about by Jan Kozak.

The third part, the "mob" was organized in 1895, when Lenin and nine
others, icluding Leon Trockij, formed the Social Democratic Labor
Part, the forerunner of the Communist Party.

Perhaps the incident that provoked Lenin's hatred of the Russian
monarchy and the Czar occured in 1881, when his older brother was
executed for having taken part in assassination of Czar Alexander
II, the grandfather of Nicholas II, the Czar at the time of Lenin's
revolution.

Lenin's revolutionary career began while he was a student at the
University of Kazan, where he became a devotee of Karl Marx. Lenin
learned that Marx had anticipated two revolutionary methods for
total control of a society: the violent and non-violent. Marx's ten-
plank program constituted Marx's non-violent method of communizing
society.  The Russian Communist Party was torn between the advocates
of both methods. Lenin preferred a violent revolution to gain control
of Russia, and Trotsky preferred non-violent. The supporters of Lenin
became the majority on the debates on the issue and became known as
the Bolsheviks (translated as "the majority" in Russian), and the
supporters of Trotsky became the minority and were known as the Men-
sheviks ("the minority").

Perhaps the most crucial event in the Russian Revolution occured in
the spring of 1905, when the British Fabian Society, a non-violent
revolutionary group, met the Bolsheviks, a violent revolutionary
group, in London. It was at this meeting that loans were arranged
between the two groups so that the Bolsheviks could start their revo-
lution. Joseph Fels, a member of the Fabian Society and a wealthy
American soap manufacturer loaned the Bolsheviks large sums of money,
as did other members of the Fabians. (Zygmund Dobbs, Sugar Keynes)

Arrangements also were made to finance the Japanese goverment in a
war with the Russian goverment in an attempt to weaken the monarchy
so that it would make the task of the Bolsheviks much easier. From
New York, Jacob Schiff, J.P. Morgan, The First National Bank, and
the National City Bank loaned Japan approximately $ 30,000,000 to
attack the Russian goverment from the east. (Stephen Birmingham,
Our Crowd)

In 1905, with the financing from the members of the Fabian Society
and with the knowledge that American bankers had loaned Japan money
to move against Russia's eastern front, Lenin started his revolution
on May 1, the anniversary of the founding of the Illuminati!

But Lenin and his Bolsheviks were not initially succesful in their
revolution in spite of all of the assistance of the wealthy banking
interests and members of the Fabian Society. The Czar exiled Lenin
to Switzerland, Trotsky to the United States, Joseph Stalin to
Siberia.

The Bolsheviks were at least partially succesful in weakening the
monarchy, as the Czar responded to the charges of the Revolution and
instituted a series of reforms. For instance, he rcognizes the prin-
ciple of limited goverment, proclaimed a set of fundamental laws,
and established a national parlament (called Duma) with a share in
the law-making process for the people. In other world, the monarchy was
changing into a democratic republic.

In an extremely puzzling move, the Czar, possibly the richest man in
the world, deposited $ 400,000,000 in the Chase Bank (the Rockefeller
interes) the National City Bank, Guaranty Bank (the Morgan interest)
the Hanover Trust Bank, and the Manufacturers Trust Bank, and
$ 80,000,000 in the Rothschild Bank in Paris. Its is possible that he
realized that his goverment was in trouble and he was hoping that his
deposits would by toleration from these interests after their attempt to
remove him failed in 1905.

The revolution led inexorably on, and March 15, 1917 the Czar abdicated
in favor of a provisional goverment led ultimately by the Socialist
Alexander Kerensky. One of the first act of his goverment was to issue
amnesty o exiled Bolsheviks and back to the Russian Revolution came
Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.

Many historians feel that Kerensky goverment was a temporary front for
the Bolsheviks, for three important reasons:
1; Kerensky was allowed to live after Lenin assumed control of the
   goverment while virtually all the other members of the Provisional
   Goverment were butchered in the revolution that folowed.
2; Kerensky issued a general amnesty not only for the Bolshevik leaders
   but all other exiled since the aborted revolution of 1905. It is
   estimated that this act freed over 250,000 dedicated revolutionaries.
3; Kerensky himself admitted that the Kerensky goverment had "received
   some suppor privately from industry in America" possibly from the
   same individuals who FINANCED LENIN in 1905. (US News and World
   Report, March 13, 1967 p.67)

So back came the major Communist revolutionaries to the revolution.
Trotsky left New York Ciy on March 27, 1917 on the S.S. Christiana
with 275 other followers on his way to Canada. He and his folowers
were detained in Halifax, Nova Scotia, by the Canadian goverment, which
found $ 10,000 on his person.
The subject of Trotsky's $ 10,000 came up in 1919 during a Senate
investigating committee's hearings into the subject of Bolshevik pro-
paganda and German money. "It is quite remarkable that the (Overman)
Committee adjourned abtruply before the source of Trotsky's fund could
be placed into the record. When questioning resumed the next day,
Trotsky and his $ 10,000 were no longer of interest". ( Antony Sutton
Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution)

Some did know where the money had come from, however even if offi-
cially the United States goverment did not want to know. Congress-
man Louis McFadden, the Chairman of the House Banking Committee,
went on record saying: "They (the private banking monopolies) finan-
ced Trotsky's mass meetings of discontent and rebellion in New York.
They paid Trotsky's passage from New York to Russia so that he might
assist in the destruction of the Russian empire. They fomented and
instigated the Russian Revolution and they placed a large fund of
American dollars at Trotsky's disposal in one of their branch banks
in Sweden" (H.SD. Kennan, The Federal Reserve Bank p. 142)

Lenin also received assistance from those who supposedly had the
most to lose in a Communist Russia: the wealthy American "capita-
lists" themselves.
The director of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, William B.
Thompson, gavee a personal contribution of $ 1,000,000 (?) to the
Bolsheviks. Mr. Thompson was also a heavy stockholder in the Chase
National Bank, owned by the Rockefeller's interests. (Antony Sutton
Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution p. 83)

The Morgan and Rockefeller interests also contributed cash to the
cause, as did Jacob Schiff, the senior partner of Kuhn, Loeb an Co.
who gave Lenin $ 20,000,000. Schiff was a partner of Paul Warburg,
the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, and a participant at the Jekyll
Island, Georgia meetings that wrote the Federal Reserve bill that
created America's central banking system. (U.S. News and World
Report March 13, 1967 p. 68)

In addition to assistance from the Americans, primarily the banking
interests, Lenin also received, according to Alexander Kerensky, the
sum of forty million gold marks (about $ 5,000,000) from the German
banking interests. (Correction Please, The Reviews of the News,
September 29 1971 p. 43)

NPA.
+ - Re: Historical Causation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:41 PM 7/6/96 -0400, Peter Hidas answered thus for the following:

>There are historians who now beleive that the Russian Revo-
>>lution of 1917 was in truth a revolution instigated by American and Euro-
>>pean oil interests to wrest control of the Russian oil fields from the
>>Rothschild-Nobel combination.


>Who are these historians? I taught Russian history for many years but I do
>not recall anyone advocating such nonsense.

        I have heard from the same source a couple of years ago that the
Bolshevik Revolution was a fait accomplis as early as 1905 when Jacob
Schiff, American-Jewish banker, gave a substantial loan to the Japanese
government. So, there are "historians" out there who have fertile
imagination and very little reasoning power.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:27 PM 7/6/96 -0400, Peter Hidas wrote:
>At 7:22 PM 7/6/96, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
>>       Now, come on. Just because I maintain that Lenin's Bolshevik
>>revolution had mighty little to do with a capitalist order in Russia
>
>If you review the results of the Russian election of 1917 you will notice
>that the industrial areas massively supported the Bolsheviks.

        No question about it but, as we know all too well, the Bolsheviks
didn't win the elections either. And, by the way, one more thing which I
completely forgot to mention: Lenin's policy toward the peasantry. Without
them the Bolsheviks wouldn't have been successful. And, of course, in
classical marxism the peasantry didn't figure at all.

>Without the backing of the workers the Bolsheviks would
>not have been able to win the civil war.

        That is not that clear. First of all, the soldiers' role was
substantial in the February Revolution and well as the October/November coup
and my guess is that the majority of these soldiers came from the peasantry.
But, I am just guessing here. Perhaps there are some studies concerning the
social background of the Red Army, but I am not familiar with them. However,
given the small size of the Russian working class again I am inclined to
believe that the majority came from the countryside, or perhaps from the
small artisan class but not from the ranks of the industrial workers.

>The industrial workers were
>displeased with the kind of capitalism that existed in tsarist Russia.

        The industrial workers were not satisfied with capitalism as it
existed in Hungary either. The Hungarian working class was heavily unionized
and being unionized meant that they were also card-carrying social
democrats. Let's not forget that the Bolsheviks' origin was also the Russian
Social Democratic party but that party was much more radicalized than, let's
say the Germany or the Hungarian ones. For example, the Russian Social
Democratic party was the only European social democratic party which voted
againt the declaration of the war in 1914. One shouldn't be surprised about
the leftist tendencies of the Russian social democratic party given Russian
reality and given the native intellectual roots of Russian social democracy.

        And finally, may I assume that Tibor, Joe, and Eva D. by not
answering my piece on the roots of Russian communism admit that Russian
communism didn't owe its existence to the evils of capitalism. Can we close
this discussion by saying that the main impetus for the February Revolution
came from war weariness and the Bolshevik revolution from the weakenesses of
the Russian middle class and the Provisional government's unwillingness to
conclude a separate peace with the Central Powers?

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

eva balogh said:

> It must be "genetic." Oh, yes, we are all pedantic and intolerant.
>Thank God, though, not all "cognitively challenged."

you indeed *are* pedantic and intolerant as you know nothing of mr. benke's
circumstances yet choose to attack him in such a vituperative fashion.

i am sorry to disabuse you of the notion that there is no such thing as
being cognitively challenged (or "cognitively challenged", as you say).
there are diseases that attack the nervous system, which, besides being
physically debilitating, also insidiously make it difficult for the
sufferer to concentrate for lengthy periods of time. and as such diseases
are also as a rule progressive, the sufferer faces increased demands of his
physical as well as cognitive resources. that, i believe is a challenge
indeed.

therefore, i would say, that a person in such circumstances may be far more
able to be sensitive to particular sociological nuances than say, you. from
*experience* ms. balogh.

shame on you. not for being "cognitively challenged" (lucky you), but for
ignorance based on a particular brand of intolerance, very much in fashion
with *some* soi-disant hungarian intellectuals.

as an other example of a cognitive dissonance, may i present you with a
child who is dyslexic? and what would you propose to do with such a child?
how would you propose to teach him/her? because for such a child to peform
on the level of other children special attention needs to be spent and a
greater effort exerted.

regards
ef
+ - Re: price of flight (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It is "pound sterling"

Regards,Jeliko

> Eva and Jeliko,

> Whatever currency is an stg?

> Martha
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:55 AM 7/7/96, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
     That is not that clear. First of all, the soldiers' role was
>substantial in the February Revolution and well as the October/November coup
>and my guess is that the majority of these soldiers came from the peasantry.
>But, I am just guessing here. Perhaps there are some studies concerning the
>social background of the Red Army, but I am not familiar with them. However,
>given the small size of the Russian working class again I am inclined to
>believe that the majority came from the countryside, or perhaps from the
>small artisan class but not from the ranks of the industrial workers.

By the end of the year 1917 the old army disintegrated. The new army, the
Red Army, was made up not of peasants but mainly of worker-volunteers, at
least at first. Drafting began only in the early summer of 1918.
Eventually, as a result of the civil war, many towns depopulated
drastically, including Petrograd and Moscow. This was to a large extent due
to the high mortality rate at the front of the mentioned worker-volunteers.

And now back to Hungary...



Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

+ - Re: Historical Causation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:42 PM 7/7/96, Peter A. Nemenyi wrote:

>The secret society had been brought to Russia. In a book entitled Russia
>1917, author George Katkov cited the enormous influence the secret
>societies had in the Communist Revolution: "There is no doubt...that a
>widespread net of conspiratorial organizations modeled on freemason's
>lodges worked for revolution in Russia and played a decisive role in the
>formation of the first Provisional Goverment." (Gary Allen, Building
>Communism)

Katkov could not even prove the connection between the secret societies and
various plots and the February Revolutions.

>The third part, the "mob" was organized in 1895, when Lenin and nine
>others, icluding Leon Trockij, formed the Social Democratic Labor
>Part, the forerunner of the Communist Party.
>
>Perhaps the incident that provoked Lenin's hatred of the Russian
>monarchy and the Czar occured in 1881, when his older brother was
>executed for having taken part in assassination of Czar Alexander
>II, the grandfather of Nicholas II, the Czar at the time of Lenin's
>revolution.

That is a myth. Lenin never mentioned that in his writings. And he wrote plenty
.

>Perhaps the most crucial event in the Russian Revolution occured in
>the spring of 1905, when the British Fabian Society, a non-violent
>revolutionary group, met the Bolsheviks, a violent revolutionary
>group, in London. It was at this meeting that loans were arranged
>between the two groups so that the Bolsheviks could start their revo-
>lution. Joseph Fels, a member of the Fabian Society and a wealthy
>American soap manufacturer loaned the Bolsheviks large sums of money,
>as did other members of the Fabians. (Zygmund Dobbs, Sugar Keynes)

The Bolsheviks had little to do with the events of 1905.

>Arrangements also were made to finance the Japanese goverment in a
>war with the Russian goverment in an attempt to weaken the monarchy
>so that it would make the task of the Bolsheviks much easier. From
>New York, Jacob Schiff, J.P. Morgan, The First National Bank, and
>the National City Bank loaned Japan approximately $ 30,000,000 to
>attack the Russian goverment from the east. (Stephen Birmingham,
>Our Crowd)

And what did Japan do? Did they attack Russia? They did not.

>In 1905, with the financing from the members of the Fabian Society
>and with the knowledge that American bankers had loaned Japan money
>to move against Russia's eastern front, Lenin started his revolution
>on May 1, the anniversary of the founding of the Illuminati!

Lenin did not start or finish the Revolution of 1905. He was not in Russia
during most of its course.
>
>But Lenin and his Bolsheviks were not initially succesful in their
>revolution in spite of all of the assistance of the wealthy banking
>interests and members of the Fabian Society. The Czar exiled Lenin
>to Switzerland, Trotsky to the United States, Joseph Stalin to
>Siberia.

Lenin was successful in October 1917. He was not exiled to Switzerland. He
went there voluntarily.

>Many historians feel that Kerensky goverment was a temporary front for
>the Bolsheviks, for three important reasons:
>1; Kerensky was allowed to live after Lenin assumed control of the
>   goverment while virtually all the other members of the Provisional
>   Goverment were butchered in the revolution that folowed.

Incorrect. Kerensky escaped with US help. The Bolsheviks let the cabinet go
free. Try to handle your "facts" with greater care.




Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>        And finally, may I assume that Tibor, Joe, and Eva D. by not
>answering my piece on the roots of Russian communism admit that Russian
>communism didn't owe its existence to the evils of capitalism. Can we close
>this discussion by saying that the main impetus for the February Revolution
>came from war weariness and the Bolshevik revolution from the weakenesses of
>the Russian middle class and the Provisional government's unwillingness to
>conclude a separate peace with the Central Powers?


Speaking for myself, first of all I am trying to deal with some 4 Megabytes
of back e-mail on a very limited energy budget.  So my silence means
nothing.

Second, I am glad this thread started and am 'specially grateful to NPA for
contributing some 'facts' so Eva's thirst for knowledge can be quenched.

Lastly, I suggest, that Eva really clear up her confusion about method in
history and especially the logic of cause and effect, and most  especially
the concepts of "proximate cause" and "final cause".  In her place I'd be
embarassed, and I have an exuse and she doesn't.

A Yale Ph.D. in any subject, let alone history should be conversant with at
least classical logic.  But a historian, even if they abhor philosophy,
should understand the main controversies from the greeks to Hegel.  I am
beginning to wonder about that Yale Ph.D.  Her nearest academic library
surely has a set of the Encyclopaedia of Philosophy.

TB
+ - Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Charles,

You wrote:

>Dear Tibor Benke and all who had the patience of following this long
>thread.
>
>First, Tibor, I'd like to thank you for your civility and obviously
>deeply felt reasoning you gave to your last reply. While we still end
>up on opposing sides on the issue of unions and social history, at
>least I feel I understand your opinions much better and for that, I am
>grateful.
>
>At this point I'd like to suggest to you that we end this thread or at
>least turn it over to those who have far more personal experience with
>the role of (teachers) unions in Hungary.  As Andra1s Kornai correctly
>reminds us, we have strayed too far from the declared subject of this
>list, which is Hungary.
>
>Thank you again, Tibor, for your contribution and I wish you a very
>pleasant summer in one of the  world's most beautiful cities,
>Vancouver, Canada.


I am grateful for your attention.  Yes, I think we are straying a bit as
well.  Also, I would be extreemly glad to hear from teachers and other
union people in Hungary or from people knowledgeable about the way
education is being dismantled in Hungary.

In connection with the notice about the candle lighting ceremony on the
1100 -th year anniversary of Hungarian presence in Carpathia, I recieved a
letter from a Computer Science teacher in Hungary.  I don't know if either
the Hunyadi Janos Oreg Cserkesz Munkakozoseg, or the Human Rights for
Minorities in Central Europe Society, Vancouver, B.C, the two groups I am
involved with can help him, I think he has a good idea, if he is for real,
and maybe someone there in cyberspace will can help him.

I am attaching his letter to me below and a translation after that.

>>Temakor: Jubileumi Felhivas ( 74 sor )
>>Idopont: Mon Jul  1 06:55:57 EDT 1996 FORUM #2038
>
>>   A KOZEP EUROPAI KISEBBSEGEK EMBERI JOGAIERT TARSULAT
>>                  VANCOUVER B.C
>
>>       " b a r h o v a   i s   s o d o r t   a   s o r s "
>>                E G Y U V E   T A R T O Z U N K !
>
>>  A Tarsulat Neveben
>>Laborfalvi Benke Tibor
>>        (Titkar)
>>      
>>=======================================================
>Kedves Tibor!
>
>Szivemet melegseggel tolti el a felhivasotok.
>Hat igen... A magyarsag reszben szetszorodott, az itthon
>maradottak pedig sajnos fogynak (demografiai problemak)
>
>Hazank vilagelso az ongyilkossag,az alkoholizmus ,stb. tere'n.
>Pedig az olyan ember akinek van celja,alma,terve, lat valami
>jovokepet , az nem menekul alkoholizmusba,az nem lesz ongyilkos.
>
>A celokhoz,almokhoz pedig nyitott gondolkodasmod,ahhoz pedig
>tudas is kell. (...ilyenkor mindig megszolal bennem a tanar)
>
>Alapveto emberi jog a tanulashoz valo jog is,ha lenne ra
>penze az orszagnak.Mindezt azert irom le,mert
>tamogatokat keresek egy Budapest kulvarosi reszeben
>(Pestszentimre) letrehozando mini internet-es,10 gepes PC gepterem
>felallitasahoz,mert az itteni altalanos iskolakban oktatasi celra
>meg egyetlen egy PC sincs,(nemhogy internet) s a gepekre sincs
>sok remeny.
>
>En egy "megszallott" szamitastechnika (computer hardware,software)
>tanar vagyok a varos masik vegen,de Pestimre teruleten lakom,
>es sajnalom a nagyvilagtol elzart gyermekeket.Ha sikerulne az
>internetes gepterem,ablakot nyithatnek a gyerekeknek,celt mutatok
>nekik,hogy ne valjanak kesobb a kilatastalansag miatt alkoholistava,
>ongyilkossa,stb.
>
>Ha tudnal ebben segiteni barmely modon (a kanadai magyarok
>kozott tamogatok keresese,hasznalt gepek,stb) ,sok gyereket
>boldogga tenne.
>
>Cserebe az onallo internet szerverre feltennenk tamogatoink
>fenykepet,eletrajzat,hirdetnenk a vilag magyarjainak
>osszefogasat,a Ti tarsulatotok eleterol szolo minden
>anyagot,vagy barmit,amit cserebe kertek.
>(egy onallo internet szerver ejjel-nappal lathato a
>vilag barmely pontjarol)
>
>Egy "berelt vonal" (pont-pont osszekottetes) kiepitese 800 USA$
>a gepek halozatba epiteset mi el tudjuk vegezni,a szerelesi
>munkakra szuloket be tudunk vonni (elektromos halozat..)
>Vegul is nehany ezer $-bol osszehozhato lenne gepekkel egyutt.
>(esetleg lehetne egy alapitvanyt letrehozni...)
>
>Minden segitseget elore is koszonunk.
>Barhogy is alakuljon,levelezhetnenk is.
>
>Udvozlettel:
>-------------------
>Cser Tamas tanar
>1188.Budapest (Pestszentimre)
>Naplo u. 99/a.
>Hungary
>----------------
>Itt lenne a PC gepterem.

Dear Tibor,

My heart is warmed by your announcement.  Yes, we Hungarians are scattered
all over the world, and those of us here at home a wasting away
(demographic decline)

Our homeland is leading the world in suicide and alchoholism, etc.
On the other hand, a person with a goal, a dream, some plans does not flee
into alchoholism or commit suicide.

To have dreams and plans an open mind is neccessary and for that a person
needs knowledge.  (at times like this, the teacher in me comes to the
fore).

The right to learn is a fundamental human right and which could be granted
if our country had the money for it.   I am wrighting because I am Looking
for support for my project, here in Pestszentimre, a suburb of Budapest.  I
would like to open a small computer lab with 10 pc-s and internet access
because the local school (Altalanos=grades 1-8) has not a single computer
for instructional purposes, all for lack of funds.  Even less do they have
money for internet access nor any hope for it any time soon.

I am a "fanatical" computer science teacher (both hardware and software)
and I work on the other side of the city.  But I live here in Pestszentimre
and I am sad to see that the children here are cut off from the world. If
we could succeed in setting up our Internet laboratory, it would open a
window to the world for these children, it might give them a goal so they
might be dissuaded from alchoholism or suicide on account of hopelessness.

We would appreciate any help from the Hungarian community, (used PCs,
money, etc.) you would make many children happy.

In exchange we would put photos and biographies of our supporters on our
independent server, we would announce the solidarity of the Hungarians of
the world or the activities of your group. ( An internet server is
reachable from any part of the world twenty-four hours a day.)

A hired line is about US $800.  We can set up the lab and do all the
networking of the machines with the help of volunteer parents. All in all
the whole project would cost a few thousand dollars.  Perhaps we need to
start a foundation.

We would appreciate any help,
sincerely,

-------------------
Cser Tamas tanar
1188.Budapest (Pestszentimre)
Naplo u. 99/a.
Hungary
----------------
Itt lenne a PC gepterem.


So much for a rather free translation.
Tibor Benke

+ - I do not want on this list! Someone please tell me how (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:21 AM 7/7/96 -0700, Tibor Benke wrote:

>My point at the time was, that although Russia was not a capitalist
>country, the capitalist world system was already operational, there was, in
>other worlds a single world economy, such that changes in one country had
>effects in others.

        Even if this were true, and for the sake of argument, let's pretend
that it is, this is *not* why the February Revolution broke out and this is
not why there was a Bolshevik coup. The main reason behind these revolutions
was exactly the weaknesses of underdevelopment. The economic strain of the
war was the immediate cause of the revolution. If one could speak of a
single world economy and if the state of that economy had anything to do
with communism then there would have been revolutions all over the world.
But they were not!

>It was especcially operational on the level which Marx
>called the "superstructure" in that Russian intellectuals were being
>educated in the west, the Russian Aristocracy looked to France for its
>culture and ideas.

        Yes! And?

>But capitalism had effects on Russia in terms of
>investment flows and market phenomena.  The Aristocracy, for example, was
>stashing a goodly portion of its wealth, which it could have invested in
>Russia, in Swiss and German Banks.

        Please, read Chekhov's Cherry Orchard, for example. The Russian
aristocracy wasn't terribly well off. Just like their Hungarian counterparts
they were terribly indebted and had little capital to invest in the
modernization of their estates.

>She was also selling grain in world
>markets.  (For an explanation of this sort of phenomenon in a Latin
>American context, see Andre Gunder Frank's seminal essay, "The Development
>of Underdevelopment" also E Wallerstein, _World Systems Theory_, also Peter
>Worsley _Three Worlds_ and last but not least Eric Wolfe _Europe and the
>People Without History)

        Come on, try to think. Let me put what you are saying in some other
words: Russia sold grain in the world markets and therefore was part of a
world economy and therefore there was a bolshevik revolution! Surely, this
will not float.

>I immediately saw that one
>could never understand history with out understanding anthropology.

        My, my. A lot of historians are frauds then because most of us
neglected to study the field. In any case, please explain to me why it is
necessary to study anthropology, for example, for diplomatic history. Or
economic history? Or straighforward political history. Golly, you read
something and if it appeals to you you just swallow the whole thing without
asking yourself: is that really so? Do I have to study anthropology in order
to study the foreign policy of Hungary between the two world wars?

>I also belaboured the point that 'facts' are meaningless without context --
> Russia when viewed in isolation may seem to be an underdeveloped country
>which hadn't yet even fully reached the feudal stage,

        Well, that is an exaggeration. Please don't just throw words around
like "capitalism" or "feudalism." Russia wasn't that backward! But
admittedly, serfdom was abolished only in the 1860s and at the time of World
War I some peasants were still paying for the lands they received.


>It is a matter of *perspective* or
>*levels of analysis*.  I cannot believe you don't understand that.

        Oh, I understand the matter of "perspective" and the "levels of
analysis." The problem is that I don't share your perspective and your
analysis. I am convinced that you don't know what you are talking about.

>You have a Ph.D. from Yale for pity's sake.

        Don't underestimate me and for your enlightenment it is not for
"pity's sake," but for "Pete's sake." I think it has something to do with
Saint Peter.

>>       Now, come on. Just because I maintain that Lenin's Bolshevik
>>revolution had mighty little to do with a capitalist order in Russia, it
>>doesn't mean that I want to destroy the planet. Or, perhaps according to
>>your "philosphy and perspective" it does. But if it does, I am afraid I
>>can't follow your soaring thoughts!
>
>If you fail to see a relatively simple cause and effect relationship in the
>global historical proccess, and you are one of the smarter people in this
>world (certified) then I have little hope for the continued survival of
>humanity.

        So, let me probe into this a little deeper. According to you there
is a "simple cause and effect relationship" between the Bolshevik
Revolution's origins and the destruction of the planet. It seems to me that
you skipped a few steps in your "simple cause and effect relationship."

>>>The case being that teachers in working class and poor neighborhoods
>>>('specially if they mess with YUUNIOONS) are incompetent and their students
>>>are too stupid to learn anyway.  If the joke were about blacks, it would be
>>>racist, if it were about blind or deaf people, it would be ableist,  but
>>>being 'cognitively challenged' is still a euphemism for being stupid, and
>>>being stupid is still an excuse for oppressing people.
>>
>>        My God! How did we get from the Bolshevik revolution to teachers in
>>working class and poor neighborhoods? Perhaps because there is another
>>thread about teachers, teaching, high schools, and unions.
>
>Actually, that too.  But we are talking about classism and intellectual
>arrogance.

        You have lost me again. We were talking about the Bolshevik
Revolution not about arrogance and classism. Or perhaps you think that
putting forward a simple proposition: "the Bolshevik Revolution was not a
direct consequence of capitalism" is actually nothing else but arrogance and
classism.

>> And what baffles
>>me most is the mention of "being 'cognitively challenged' [which] is still a
>>euphemism for being stupid, and being tupid is still an excuse for
>>oppressing people."
>
>By way of looking for underlying causes of ideological blind spots.

        OK. Let me put that into simple English. Just because I am aware
that you have a condition which you call "cognitively challenged" I think
that you have ideological blind spots. I can assure you that this has never
crossed my mind. I think your ideological blind spots are quite independent
from your condition of "cognitively challenged."


>He [the doctor] couldn't have known, and I
>wouldn't have admitted to myself at the time, that I also suffer from what
>is now called A.D.D. (Attention Deficit Disorder  -- though I think this
>label has some unwarranted epystemological assumptions inbeded in it).

        Oh, my God. You are right. You are a mess!

>The condition which is labeled
>A.D.D., of course has disadvanteges, but it also has advanteges as well.
>One of them is being to see connections between things like:
>
>>        So, Tibor Benke for some strange reason thinks that my professional
>>opinion on the origins of the Bolshevik Revolution has something to do with
>>his being "cognitively challenged."
>
>What it has to do, is that if I, as a cognitively challenged person with
>hardly any background in History, can understand the relationship between
>the Bolshevik revolution and global capitalism, then you as a professional
>should be able to understand why one might think so, even if, in your
>professional judgement, I am wrong.

        I am so glad that you are so sure of yourself. You have hardly any
background in history but you understand the relationship between the
Bolshevik revolution and global capitalism. And, it seems from your
description, you are able to see that vital connection because (1) you are
"cognitively challenged" and (2) you have "attention deficit disorder."
Surely, since I don't have either problem my understanding of history must
suffer gravely.

>If I am wrong, you should be able to
>show how global economic forces had a negligible effect on Russia of the
>time, and not merely assert it _ex catedra_. Maintaining that Russia was a
>backward agricultural state, is not alone sufficient.

        I am not asserting anything ex extra. If global economic forces
(European and North American capitalism) were one seamless whole, we would
have had revolutions in every capitalist or semi-capitalist country. We
didn't. We had revolutions only in countries which lost (or practically
lost) the war. How many times do I have to repeat this to you to understand
what I am saying. The main reason was not capitalism but the lost war and
economic exhaustion.

>And if you can't see
>that, then a Yale degree is worth a lot less then I thought.

        I am warning you to stop your insults. I am a very proud graduate of
Yale University and I am very proud former faculty member and college dean
of the same institution. I have learned immense amount while I was a student
here, first in Russian and East European Studies and later in the History
Department which is, by the way, the best in this country. Stop insulting my
alma mater and me. I don't take too kindly to it.

>Being cognitively challanged, among other things means, that if it were not
>for computers and keyboards I couldn't write as well as this because I
>can't spell very well.

        So are a lot of people in this country and more and more in Hungary.
The way you talk you give the impression that without the spell check you
could not write a decent letter because of your spelling. Two days ago, you
wrote a very lengthy contribution to Forum (#2042) and your spelling in
Hungarian is just fine and I very much doubt that you have spell check in
Hungarian, especially considering that we cannot use diacritical marks on
the Net. Is it possible that perhaps you exaggerate your problems with, at
least, spelling?

>><Long story about Tibor's inability to memorize the multipication table. Let
>>me add that I am terrible at math but I don't consider myself cognitively
>>challenged.>
>
>More's the pity.

        What does that mean? I should consider myself "cognitively
challenged"? I rather blame it on an education which didn't think that math,
physics and natural sciences in general were terribly important for girls to
learn. In addition, I missed an awful lot of school in my first four years
of elementary school because of the war and we all know that those first few
years are terribly important.

>>        Did I want to exploit you because I argued with you about the
>>origins of the Bolshevik Revolution?
>
>No!  What makes you say that?  I have nothing but the highest regard for
>you.

        I can't imagine how you must write to people for whom you don't have
"the highest regard." I feel pity for them.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:38 PM 7/7/96 -0700, Tibor Benke wrote:

>Second, I am glad this thread started and am 'specially grateful to NPA for
>contributing some 'facts' so Eva's thirst for knowledge can be quenched.

        I do hope that Tibor Benke is joking! Or are you that ignorant?
NPA's facts?

>Lastly, I suggest, that Eva really clear up her confusion about method in
>history and especially the logic of cause and effect, and most  especially
>the concepts of "proximate cause" and "final cause".  In her place I'd be
>embarassed, and I have an exuse and she doesn't.

>A Yale Ph.D. in any subject, let alone history should be conversant with at
>least classical logic.  But a historian, even if they abhor philosophy,
>should understand the main controversies from the greeks to Hegel.  I am
>beginning to wonder about that Yale Ph.D.  Her nearest academic library
>surely has a set of the Encyclopaedia of Philosophy.


        I am telling you Benke if you don't stop your insults very soon you
will be able only to discuss matters only between you and yourself.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:49 PM 7/7/96 -0800, E. Fischer wrote:
>eva balogh said:
>
>> It must be "genetic." Oh, yes, we are all pedantic and intolerant.
>>Thank God, though, not all "cognitively challenged."
>
>you indeed *are* pedantic and intolerant as you know nothing of mr. benke's
>circumstances yet choose to attack him in such a vituperative fashion.

>therefore, i would say, that a person in such circumstances may be far more
>able to be sensitive to particular sociological nuances than say, you. from
>*experience* ms. balogh.
>
>shame on you. not for being "cognitively challenged" (lucky you), but for
>ignorance based on a particular brand of intolerance, very much in fashion
>with *some* soi-disant hungarian intellectuals.

        I am so glad that E. Fischer is coming to the rescue of poor Tibor
Benke who is about as "cognatively challenged" as I am. He can spell in
English and he can spell in Hungarian. He can talk, he can argue, he can be
rude--if E. Fischer wishes to defend him, go ahead. Mr. Benke has pulled
this "cognatively challenged" bit about a year and a half ago and by now I
don't believe a word about his neurological difficulties. At the beginning I
did. But no longer.

        And one more thing. E. Fischer ought not to be terribly surprised
that I am not as sympathetic to Mr. Benke as I ought to be. I have heard
nothing but abuse from Mr. Benke without any provocation whatsoever. Please,
do read his contributions again and you will perhaps understand why I am
less sympathetic to Mr. Benke as perhaps one ought to be. He is attacking my
alma mater, he is attacking me and my professional competence, he acts as if
he were some kind of superior being while he is totally ignorant of the
subject matter under discussion.

        As far as his sensitiveness to particular sociological nuances are
concerned as a result of his neurological condition, please, give me an
another one!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:55 AM 7/7/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        And finally, may I assume that Tibor, Joe, and Eva D. by not
>answering my piece on the roots of Russian communism admit that Russian
>communism didn't owe its existence to the evils of capitalism. Can we close
>this discussion by saying that the main impetus for the February Revolution
>came from war weariness and the Bolshevik revolution from the weakenesses of
>the Russian middle class and the Provisional government's unwillingness to
>conclude a separate peace with the Central Powers?

In a word, no.  First of all, you don't know what the impetus for the
February Revolution was any more than I do.  But you are certainly welcome
to speculate.  Second, just because I favour good social programmes today
doesn't mean that I automatically come to the defense of the Russian
Revolution.  As a matter of fact, I see no connection between the two.  I
suspect that you do because everytime I say something positive about any
social programme you go into a rant about the evils of communism/socialism
and about how everyone abuses every social programme under the sun.   I've
seen this kind of response from far too many Hungarians.  Could it be the
Hungarian disease?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Historical Causation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:11 PM 7/6/96 -0400, Martha Bihari wrote:

>Your comment was lopsided, as you only know one facet of the gentleman.
>I have found George (Antony) to be a level-headed, well-informed
participant >of this list; his comments are usually right on the money.
These are the
>people whose readership we should elicit and not alienate.

Thanks for your advice, Martha.  Unfortunately, I'm not in the market for a
leader at this time.  When the desire to follow someone strikes, I'll be
sure to ask you for your comments and wisdom.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: price of flight (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, _JELIKO wrote:

> It is "pound sterling"
>
> Regards,Jeliko
>
> > Eva and Jeliko,
>
> > Whatever currency is an stg?
>
> > Martha
>

Oh, my goodness!  I have just realized that you can't use the crossed out
L - or whatever it is.

Thanks!  I'm glad I asked.  :)
Martha

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