Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 57
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-08-26
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind)  122 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Pizza Huts and McDonalds (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: The army and the churches (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: restaurant (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: restaurant (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: restaurant (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
8 ASZONY UR (mind)  110 sor     (cikkei)
9 the Church under Kadar (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
10 Hungarian foreign policy? (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
11 Australian wine (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
12 A monarchy? (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: the Church under Kadar (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: A monarchy? (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: the Church under Kadar (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
17 istenaszony (mind)  272 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Pizza Huts and McDonalds (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
19 Magyar-Slovak Bike Trip Advice Request (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: interpretation of the 1994 election res (mind)  138 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: The army and the churches (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Australian wine (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: restaurant (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: restaurant (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Army and Church (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
29 political parties (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Army and Church (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Army and Church (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: restaurant (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: The army and the churches (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Army and Church (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: restaurant (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
39 Teach history in Eastern Europe (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Judaism (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
42 the Church under Kadar (mind)  144 sor     (cikkei)
43 British Monarchy (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
44 Army and Church (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
45 I am #1 (Re: access in Hungary) (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: access in Hungary (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Norb obviously finds Andras Kornai's arguments irritating.  In their
critique, however, he himself commits some errors:

>Additionally, any other reason for the return of the Communists in
>Hungary would have to be taken with a grain of salt, since that
>political phenomenon has been occurring in _most_ of the former-
>Communist countries, with the exception of, not surprisingly
>(unless you deal with revisionistic and political motivated
>analysis), the Czech Republic (which arguably has had the best
>economic recovery so far).

It is one fine issue whether one can call former Communists, now
in power in Hungary, Communist when they got rid of all the ideolo-
gical baggage and most practical manifestations of their earlier
creed.

On the other hand, it is an ironic twist that it is exactly the
Czech government, that freest of former Communists, that uses
the heaviest doses of central control over the economy (often
considered a prime example of Communist rule) with apparent success.

>And might I add, the two facts raised
>above can debunk Mr. Kornai's theory single handily, even without
>confronting the issue of whether or not the MDF governments were
>"Christian-national," a description which in no way was solidly
>founded in Hungarian politics and foreign policy under the said
>governments.

Your sources of information during the last four years seem to
have been rather limited.  The late Mr Antall especially had a
predelection for declaring his Christian and nationalist
sentiments.  The Christian-nationalist political line goes
back a long way in Hungarian political history, and the MDF-
led coalition in its foreign policy was actively pushing it
too.  (Viz. state and party links with Christian-oriented
parties in Germany and a nationalist line vis-a-vis Hungarian
minorities in neighbouring countries).

In the coalition, all three parties (one of them Christian
by name) actively promoted what they saw as Christian
principles.  One of the first legislative attempts of the
coalition after coming to power in 1990 was that of
prescribing general religious education for schoolchildren.
It failed because it went much further than it was acceptable
to even some churches - the Catholic church was all for it
but the reformed Christians and the Jewish were not.

One doesn't even have to disagree with this political
line to acknowledge its existence.

>Obviously there were some in the MDF who wanted a
>more "Christian" state and a more nationalistic Hungary, but to say
>that that sort of thinking has been a hallmark of the past four
>years is greatly debatable.

It is greatly debatable if it is greatly debatable.

>     I believe the above has brought about Mr. Kornai's analysis of
>the chaplain situation because he himself ties it to the former
>governments' "Christian-national crap."  But what he ignores is
>that chaplains are a part of many states' armed forces, regardless
>of their official state ideology (take the US for example).

Just because that is so in the US, it does not mean that all other
countries must also follow it.  Or since when is the US the universal
standard in every walk of life ?

It can be argued that since in civilian life governments do not
normally subsidize their citizens' religious activities they need
not do that in the armed services either, as long as soldiers are
allowed to use religous services provided by whomever else.

If soldiers' freedom of movement is restricted and they are not
allowed the basic human right of religious practice, then it is
the duty of the restricting organization (be it an army or a
prison) to provide religious services.  This is where Andras's
catchy but fundamentally flippant parallel with army bordellos
falls down: regular sexual intercourse is not usually considered a
basic human right.

>     Finally, just a specific example of how one of Mr. Kornai's
>misrepresentations was unmasked by the RFE (in this case, an RFE
>Research Report):

I am really jealous of Andras: the RFE devotes no resources to
unmask my posts to this mailing list.

>Several months ago, Mr. Kornai described the
>split in the FIDESZ and the reasons for the party's loss of
>popularity.  According to him, the Orban faction moved closer to
>the governing coalition (entailing that Orban's faction embraced
>"Christian-nationalism"), a move which resulted in a tremendous
>loss of popular support.  However, that is not what happened.
>True, Orban moved closer to the coalition parties, but the major
>loss of support occurred because while Orban kept true to the
>FIDESZ's fiscal conservative platform, Fodor's wing drifted
>economically leftward and supported social policies which were
>fiscally inconsistent with what the FIDESZ advocated!  In short,
>the population's aversion to economic reforms brought about the
>demise of the FIDESZ as well as the victory for the MSZP.

I do not think that you can name substantial differences between
the economic policies advocated by the SzDSz and the FIDESz,
except that the former was much clearer and more vocal about
economics than the latter, according to my Hungarian friends.

If being close to the coalition politically was not a
disadvantage, would you care to explain why the SzDSz did so
much better than the FIDESz ?

>(But
>then, why would Mr. Kornai know of this if his major news source is
>the Magyar Narancs, the mouthpiece of the Fodor faction?)

This damning piece of evidence, by virtue of guilt by association,
would suggest that Andras Kornai (Dr, BTW, not Mr) is economically
left-wing.

Did you really think this through or were you just shooting from
the hip ?

George Antony
+ - Re: Pizza Huts and McDonalds (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> I live in Pizza Huts' and McDonalds' country of origin but I don't ever visit
> them, either in the United States or abroad. However, most people seem to
> like them in this country as well as abroad from China to Poland or Hungary.
> If all those Russians, Poles, Hungarians, and so forth, are flocking to these
> places, who am I to criticize them? Eva Balogh

Mass manipulation? I had to admit I visited one such establishment lately
in Manchester with nieces from Hungary who wuldn't go anywhere else, and
 I enjoyed it, one of the few places with air conditioning -
not usually a necessity round here.
I made my original remark as I've heard complaints about
difficulty to find Hungarian cooking in Budapest, my overall impression
agrees with this (brief visit last Easter).
By the way, Eurowoodstock (Budapest) was apperently a great success,
(E.g.The  Grandmothers of Invention) Eva Durant
+ - Re: The army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> First of all, philosophically speaking, atheism is an untenable proposition.
> If you are not a believer, you are better off declaring yourself to be an
> agnostic. Second, one may argue that religious education while one is growing
> up is a good idea. If the instructor is any good (unfortunately, most of them
> are not) one learns at least some bible stories, and because the Bible is an

1. A "believer" very often does not have a philosophy atteched to beliefs.
I thought an agnostic does not deny a reason for a god to exist, while
an atheist does. And atheists usually connect their atheism to well
defined philosophies. (I do)
2. I think it is not a secular state's duty
to teach religion. It is upto the parents to choose it's form - out-
side school hours. A good history/literature/geography/politics/
sociology curriculum in school could give objective descrip-
tion of all the major religions and their culture.
Eva Durant
+ - Re: restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> --To Eva D.--Have you tried the original Poon's in Soho?  Wonderful
> food!
>
> Charles
Hm. Is this a trick question? Default answer: I can't even afford to
eat out in  Manchester. Eva D.
+ - Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 22 Aug 1994 17:01:52 -0600 Norbert Walter said:
>elections, an interpretation which, in my view, is wrong.  Put
>shortly, Mr. Kornai attributes the success of the MSZP to a public
>uprising against the so-called "Christian-national" ideology
>(whatever that is).

--One might argue that the coalition headed by Mr. Antall espoused
a program that sounds very like the program of the Christian Democratic
People's Party:  multiparty democracy, parliamentary government,
guarantees for civil rights, local community autonomy, a free market
economy, and integration into Europe.

                        point to economic reasons as the single most
>decisive element which brought about the MSZP landslide.

--No argument.  Rising prices, rising unemployment, lower productivity.

>Additionally, any other reason for the return of the Communists in
>Hungary would have to be taken with a grain of salt, since that
>political phenomenon has been occurring in _most_ of the former-
>Communist countries,

--Of course, the Communists are not quite the same as they were before,
but appear to be closer to Social Democrats.

 with the exception of, not surprisingly
>(unless you deal with revisionistic and political motivated
>analysis), the Czech Republic (which arguably has had the best
>economic recovery so far).

--Certainly.  They had the strongest history of market economics and
already knew how to make a market economy work.  They also have
stronger democratic traditions.  I don't think it's even arguable.

>Should the US government not fund the USO because it provides tax
>funded entertainment to a small segment of society?

--But the U.S. government does not fund the USO.  It is funded
by the United Fund and other private sources.

Charles
+ - Re: restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994 09:38:08 +0100 Eva Durant said:
>>
>Hm. Is this a trick question? Default answer: I can't even afford to
>eat out in  Manchester. Eva D.

--Except at McDonald's, apparently!  Sorry, I forgot that you were in
Manchester.  Something you said once complained about too many American
fast food places in London--or I thought it did--so I made a flippant
remark.  Personally, I prefer fish and chips and a pint of local bitter.
+ - Re: restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> On Thu, 25 Aug 1994 09:38:08 +0100 Eva Durant said:
> >>
> >Hm. Is this a trick question? Default answer: I can't even afford to
> >eat out in  Manchester. Eva D.
>
> --Except at McDonald's, apparently!  Sorry, I forgot that you were in
> Manchester.  Something you said once complained about too many American
> fast food places in London--or I thought it did--so I made a flippant
> remark.  Personally, I prefer fish and chips and a pint of local bitter.

Any time minus bitter. Just 'cause I can't afford something, doesn't
mean I won't have it! (One western ideology I'd got attached to)
(I complained about such places in Budapest but apperently they
are obligatory accompaniment of democracy) Eva D
+ - ASZONY UR (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In response to a listing about the Hungarian ASZONY term on Internet I
would like to define a few basic Hungarian terms which have been discussed
lately but have often been misrepresented.

In regards the words MENY and ASZONY.

Hungarian  Meny =wife/bride    menyecske=young/little wife  mono=both of two
           Meny as "daughter in law" is a distortion of the original word.
Finn-Ugric                     meny =young woman,maid
Egyptian                       menh-t=maid
Dravidian  Mana =to be united  Mankai=girl of 12-13 years
Sumerian   Munus =woman,pair                  min  =pair,2
Sanskrit   Mena=wife

A variant of the word is Me'n =studhorse.. again emphasizes mating, bonding.
To accentuate the fact that this root word is indeed related to the word
MATEing-PAIRing the result of the mating with some animals is an egg,
having a similar name. Similarly the word emphasizing Uniting is MIN-d
meaning ALL rather then each separately.

Hungarian  Mony =egg (not the most commonly used form) tik-mony "hen egg"
Dravidian  mutai=egg,ovum
Sumerian   nunuz=egg,testicle
Vogul      mon  =egg,testicle

Now that we beat this subject to death, lets try the word ASZONY, which
according to a famous Hungarian historian expert of St Stephen's age,
Gyo:rfi Gyo:rgy, the word meant Queen in old Hungarian becoming Lady and
eventually a married lady. Quite a change but not unlike English, the result
of our democratization of terms. The Finno_Ugrian scholars say asszony
comes from the Ossetic akszin meaning woman. Not so.
There are quite a few words and family names in common between Anc.
Iranian and Old Finno-Ugrian tongues, which they explain as the
borrowings from Iranian, even though if it is truly from Iranian an
Indo-European tongue, then it should be prevalent in other Indo-European
languages as well. But isn't. They only came to Iran around 500BC.
Much too late to affect the ancient agglutinative languages there before
them, which were the ancestors of the Scythian tongues which also had this
word!!! Remember the Hungarian Chronicles which state this was our source of
origin and not the uninhabitable North, which the ancestors of the
Finno-Ugrians settled much later than the time they developed their
languages. (according to Finish scholars)

Hungarian       ASZONY =queen  BODOG ASZONY =mother goddess
Anc. Elamite    ASAN   =queen/goddes    SALA =mother/birth goddess
Anc. Sumerian  gASAN   =queen  BAU-DUG-GASAN =mother goddess
                                           "bountiful-Glad-Queen"
Anc.Hurrian    AS-TI  =woman
Anc.Aszyrian   AS-ATU =wife,woman
Ossetic        AKSZIN =lady
Persian         ZAON  =lady
               S>T
Anc. HUN       ATSI   =queen_wife (from Chinese chronicles)
AVAR-HUN      kATUN   =queen
Turk          kADAN   =lady,woman T/D

Not only lady/queen can be found here but king/lord.

Sumerian       UR    =guard,hero,champion
                      (kings were but the local representative
                       of the gods, the guardians of the people)
Hurrian       IWR      =king,lord      (Giucumakis)
Mede           AR      =lord
Egyptian       UR      =great god,lord (Wallace Budge)
Old Bulgar     Uir-ugh =lord           (Gyorfi Gy)
Mongol         uran    =lord, master   (Csoke)
Turk           uz      =lord, master (r>>z)

Akkadian      Kar-ra   =prince (herceg/ursag)
Hun           Csar,csor=prince  Kara-ulu=great hawk/great clan.=(Karvaly)
Hun           Gor,Gur  =tribe/nation

For those who may not know andcient history or linguistics: Hungarian,
Hurrian, Sumerian, Elamite, Hun, Mongol, Turk, Old Bulgar were all
agglutinative languages which appear to have many common words and
grammatical structure.

The Hungarian Arpad dynasty had a great hawk as its totemic ancestor and
that could have been the source of the title of king. The Turul hawk was
also the ancestor of the Turkish royalty as togrul. Turkic KAR-ULU would
also mean great clan or great hawk or black hawk. The Huns had a great
emperor named KARA-TON before they entered Europe. The kiraj term has other
veriations in the near east and among the central asian nations which coult
be researched. I have seen the expresion in references which I dont have
recorded.

The idea that "kiraly" (king) comes from Kurulus Magnus (Charlamene) name
or German Carl seems far fetched. Hungarians were not the allies of the
Germans or had such trusting relations with them to copy their names for
such an important title.

The realm they ruled was called by the two most common hungarian words

Hungarian      orsza'g archaic urusag (rulership/country)
Hungarian      a'lam   realm,state
Parthian       arsak   ruler, title of Parthian emperors
Sumerian      kur-sag  head of a country/ruler
               ur-sag  hero,master (Gostony)
Sumerian      alim     kingship
Sumerian     kalama    Sumeria,great land
Dravidian      al      to rule,reign
Dravidian      ali     ruler
Turk           alem    the world?
Turk           almus?  wise ruler, I cant remember the exact spelling

If your interested in references on various related words Budapest BBS
(714) 895-4885 has them in the Bullets section. You must select
'Magyar' as the language of choice when you log on in to get these.

Fred H.
+ - the Church under Kadar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant said:
 > Sorry to jump in, just mention, that the House of Lords is stocked
 > with bishops.

The number of bishops or of any other non-democratically chosen members of the
House of Lords is irrelevant because "...the House of Lords has VIRTUALLY
LOST ALL LEGISLATIVE POWERS AND HAS NO CONTROL FUNCTIONS.  All it can do is
delay a financial bill for a month and delay for one year all legislative
proposals that [are] enacted in the House of Commons...It is the highest
tribunal in England...BUT THIS FUNCTION IS PERFORMED ONLY BY THE LAW LORDS,
[who are] PEERS APPOINTED...BECAUSE OF THEIR JUDICIAL EXPERTISE [all emphasis
mine]."

Finer, Samuel E. and Michael Steed.  "Politics of Great Britain."  _Modern
Political Systems: Europe_.  4th ed.  Ed. Roy C. Macridis.  Englewood
    Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1978. p 83.

 > Just for general info: When I lived in Hungary last (1983-87) most
 > kids were attending religious education (after school) to my
 > amazement...

    Very nice, but that doesn't change the bad situation of the churches under
Kadar, as evidenced by Hoensch and many others.

    Norb
+ - Hungarian foreign policy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Attila Gabor wrote:
 > On Fri, 19 Aug 1994, Norbert Walter wrote:
 >> Imi Bokor wrote:
  >...roumania is also non-aligned...
 >>
 >>     What makes you say that?

 > During the 1970's when Romania was competing with Yugoslavia for the
 > admoration of the Third World and the West, Romania did become a very
 > significant player of the World of non-aligned countries like Cuba,
 > Syria, Iraq, Ethiopia etc.

    Oh yeah!  Should have figured what non-aligned means to some people...

    Norb

    P. S.  I think North Korea was non-aligned too!
+ - Australian wine (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles Atherton wrote:
>> Is Austrailian any cheaper?

 > Well, depends on where you are.  Here, we can buy very good
 > Australian for around ten dollars a bottle on average.  Some
 > as little as eight, others around twelve or thirteen.

    Do you have any recommendations?

    Norb
+ - A monarchy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant wrote:
 >>     And you, as a resident of the United Kingdom, actually believe that
 >> Queen Elizabeth (or any other Western European monarch) _rules_?!
 >> Please...

 > There are a few largely unknown and undemocratic avenues open for
 > monarchs here if there is a turn of govrnment not for their liking,
 > they can change some rules in quiet...

    Sure.

 > ...I think this was on the telly. Sometimes late at night.
                              ^^^^^            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Self explanatory... ;-)

 > Something happened with a labour gobernment in Australia
 > not so long ago...

    Australia still has a Labour government as far as I know.  But had it been
changed by some sort of royal intervention, do you not think that Prime
Minister Keating (who happens to be a staunch republican and plans a referendum
for 1996 on the monarchy) would have raised Hell?

 > Using cute obscure laws can be handy.

    I don't know how you came to that conclusion.  You didn't provide a single
piece of evidence which would suggest that there are _any_ "cute" and "obscure"
laws which the monarch can, or has, employed to change the course of public
will.

 > ((*)Martin was in bed, he's only 14, sorry, wont happen again him
 > poking into serious adult business such as kings and queens)

    Well, as long as you find it necessary to employ total falsehoods in
arguing your point and expect intelligent adults to believe them, I find no
reason at all in not letting children take over the list.

    Norb
+ - Re: the Church under Kadar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc Nasdor writes:

> To Norb, Greg, etc.--
>
> Look, you guys are showing a picture of "diversity" relating to, at best,
> minor theological quibbles in the larger scheme of this thread.

No, we're just members of FAUN, Fairness and Accuracy in UseNet.


> Let me be
> more blunt. Until the most recent times, the U.S. has been under the cultural
> domination of white men of northern European extraction.

Who could argue with that?

> ...and this group of Americans is undoubtedly where
> the power resides--the power to create meaning and the power to make decision
s
> affecting the lives of those outside the ethnic centers of attention.

And who could argue with this, except the religious?  :-)

--Greg
+ - Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:

A good post; but,

> It can be argued that since in civilian life governments do not
> normally subsidize their citizens' religious activities they need
> not do that in the armed services either, as long as soldiers are
> allowed to use religous services provided by whomever else.

Once could substitute {cultural, recreational, entertainment} in your
statement, and it'd be equally true; but the military is hardly going
to close its golf courses, libraries, and theaters.

I don't think the question was whether or not the authority to enforce
a religion-free policy existed; rather the reasonableness of such
a policy was addressed--and naturally different people have different
ideas.  (Much as they do about public funding for the arts, I blush to
add.)


--Greg
+ - Re: A monarchy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
>     Well, as long as you find it necessary to employ total falsehoods in
(Norb)

IT IS TRUE*, and this time I will actually dig out some proof, so
that you  know - as most correspondent - that "you are a liar"
is not a good argument.
 *that the monarchy in UK has ancient privileges unknown to most,
used (e.g. equal opportunity laws outruled for palace employees)
in Australia (getting rid of the Whitlam government) and by laws
drawn up in the late 16 hundreds, they can in fact choose the
prime minister by royal prerogative. And they will, if the establish-
ment deems it necessary. Watch this place. Eva Durant
+ - Re: the Church under Kadar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--odds and ends from two sources--

agnostic:  one who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God)
is unknown and probably unknowable

atheist:  one who denies the existence of God

>From Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate; I don't know the definition
political scientists would use. ;-)




Hungary's religion statistics:

  Roman Catholic 67.5%, Calvinist 20%, Lutheran 5%, atheist and other 7.5%

>From The World Factbook, US CIA, 1993 Edition


--Greg
+ - istenaszony (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mivel beku:ldtem egy angol cikket az asszony, menyasszony, ur, stb
szavakkal kapcsolatban ku:ldo:k egy hasonlo't magyarul.
Nemre'gen bege'peltem ezt a Dr Bobula Ida tanulma'ny magamnak, de
szeretne'm mindenkivel ismertetni. Kis magyar mitologia, hagyoma'ny
e's nyelvismerteto:

Bea'litottam a WordPerfect programomat hogy a'tforditsa
automatikusan erre az Internet ro:vid ko'dra az iratokat, macro-
val. Az a sza'mos e'kezetu" rendszer nagyon ronda e's megzavart ez
ko:zelebb a'll a megszokott rendszerhez. Reme'lju:k valamikor az
Internet is a't a'll a nyolcbites ko'dra, ez nagyon alkalmatlan az
Euro'pai nyelvekre. Ha valakinek kel a wordperfect macro irjon
nekem. )

A betu:rendszer fordito', billentyu: e's DOS 6 os ke'pernyo:
programok ma'r ve'gre teljes magyar nyomda/billetyu: e's ke'pernyo"
bea'lita'st engednek meg. Sajnos ezt me'g itt nem haszna'lhatjuk.

Ha'mori
                     -------------------

A MAGYAR O:SVALLA'S ISTENASSZONYA
Dr. Bobula Ida

     A mu'lt sza'zad ma'sodik fele'ben ja'rta a szegedko:rnye'ki
tanyavila'got Ka'lma'n Lajos katholikus ple'ba'nos. E'szrevette,
hogy hi'vei a szentek tisztelete'hez nem kereszte'ny elemeket
vegyi'tettek e's feltette, hogy ezek a kereszte'nyse'g elo:tti
o"svalla's maradva'nyai. Ka'lma'ny adatgyu:jte'se'nek eredme'nye
mitologiai'rodalmunk egyik lege'rte'kesebb talunlma'nya:
"Boldogasszony, o:svalla'sunk Istenasszonya" (1) Ebben elmondja
Ka'lma'ny, hogy ne'pu:nk kifejezetten "he't" Bodldogasszonyt
tisztel, akik ko:zo:tt a legnagyobbnak tartja a Nagyboldogasszonyt.
Ennek lea'nyai a to:bbi Boldogasszonyok (szu:lo:, fa'jdalmas,
gyertyaszentelo", sarlo's, segito", havi), akik ko:zu:l
legfiatalabb a szu:z Kisasszony. A ne'phit a Kisasszonyt
azonosi'tja a kereszte'nyse'g legnagyobb szentje'vel, Ma'ria'val,
mi'g a Nagyboldogasszonynak Szent Anna't tudja'k. Jo'llehet a
kereszte'ny hittan erro"l nem szo'l, a ne'p keddet tartja
Nagyboldogasszony napja'nak. Meddo" asszonyok kilenc keddet
bo:jto:lnek, hogy a a Nagyasszony segi'tsen rajtuk.
      Aki kedden mos, megba'ntja a Nagyboldogasszonyt a Kedd
Asszonya't. Kedden tilos minden ero"s munka, viszont elkezde'sre,
elindula'sra szerencse's a kedd, pl. tyu'ku:ltete'sre.
        Az adatok to:mege'bo:l kitu:nik, hogy Nagyboldogasszony az
e'let ado'ja e's ve'do"je, bo"se'g, terme'kenyse'g, arata's,
no:ve'ny, a'llat e's ember szaporoda'sa'nak, ege'szse'ge'nek
gondviselo"je.
        Ka'lma'ny ra'mutatott ko'dexirodalmunk adata'ra, amely
szerint Szt. Gelle'rt "tana'csa'nak inte'se'bo"l akkoron kele fel,
hogy a szu:z Ma'ria't ez Magyarorsza'gban Bo'dogasszonynak, avagy
ez vila'gnak nagy asszonya'nak hi'vta'k." (2) Felteheto", hogy Szt.
Gelle'rt te'rito" to:rekve'sei sora'n tala'lkozott egy jo'sa'gos
e's fennse'ges mennyei nagyasszony ku'ltusza'val, akiben mintegy
Szu:z Ma'ria elo"ke'pe't la'thatta, akinek tisztelete nagyobb
akada'ly ne'lku:l va'lhatott Ma'ria kultussza' e's akinek ko:lto"i
neve nem la'tszhatott me'ltatlannak arra, hogy Isten anyja't
e'kesi'tse. Lehet, hogy ez a megla'ta's segi'tette a "nagy
te'ri'to"t" emle'kezetes sikere'hez, mikor "napba o:lto:zo:tt
asszony" bibliai ide'zete't va'lasztotta a magyar udval elo"tt
tartott pre'dika'cio'ja ta'rgya'ul.(3) Ka'lma'ny fejtegete'sei e's
adatai nem ta'mogatta'k azt a finnugor ira'nyzatot, mely
to:bb-kevesebb tudatossa'ggal, a magyarsa'g o:ne'rzete'nek
megto:re'se ve'gett, olyan primiti'v, gyu:jto:geto"
elo"magyarokro'l besze'lt, akiknek nem is lehetett mitolo'gia'juk.
Az Egyetemi Nyomda "Magyarsa'g Ne'prajza" kiadva'nya'ban, a
hitvi'la'g-fejezet bo" bibliogra'fia'ja'ban hia'ban keressu:k
Ka'lma'ny akade'miai e'rtekeze'se't.(4)
        Ege'szen ma's u'ton, a magyar di'szi'to"mu:ve'szet keleti
forra'sainak kutata'sa ko:zben tala'lt egy o"si magyar Nagyasszony
gabona'val, gyu:mo:lcsel, terme'kenyse'ggel o:sszefu:ggo"
ku'ltusza'nak nyomaira Huszka Jo'zsef; AsztarteBoldogasszonynak
nevezte.(5) Astarte azonban ara'nylag ke'so"i ido"k istenno"je.
Megelo"zete Istar, azt Inanna e's valamennyit a re'gi sume'r
pantheon anyaistene, Bau' vagy Baba.
        A Magna Mater alakja az o'kor majdnem minden valla'ssa'ban
megvolt e's bizony os vona'sokban minden Magna Mater hasonlo'. A
sume'r Bau' e's a magyar Bo'dogasszony ko:zo:tt azonban olyan
hasonlo'sa'gok vannak, melyeket sem ve'letlense'ggel, sem az
a'ltala'nos jelleggel megmagyara'zni nem lehet.
        Bau' alakja't egyre'szt a ko" -e's csere'pta'bla'kon
fennmaradt e'kira'sos irodalombo'l, ma'sre'szt ke'beibo"l
ismerju:k. Ezek legnagyobb re'sze pecse'thengerekre ve'sve maradt
ra'nk. Korona's no"alak, fodros ruha'ban, tro'nsze'ken u:l e's
szimbo'lumaink valamelyike, az e'letfa, a termo" a'g, amit keze'ben
tart, vagy az e'letvizzel telt serleg jelzik, hogy o" az E'let
Nagyasszonya. Van kutya'ja e's madara. Tala'ltak az a'sato'k
sza'mos Bau'nak szentelt ivo'ede'nyt.
        Az e'kira'sos szo:vegekbo"l tudjuk, hogy a sumi'r
fe'nykorban, Kr.e. 2500 ko:ru:l, Bau' mint a rangban harmadik
szerepelt a nagy (sumir) istenek sora'ban. Anu e'gisten e's annak
elso: fia, En-LIL viharisten uta'n ko:vetkezett a rangsorban, de
megelo:zte En-KI vi'zistent (e's tudoma'nyok), aki az embereket
agyagbo'l megteremtette.(6) Bizonyos nyomok arra mutatnak, hogy a
to:rte'nelemelo"tti matriarchatus kora'ban Bau', vagy egy o"t is
megelo"zo" no"alak, lehetett az elso" isten, a mindense'g e's
minden tova'bbi isten szu:lo"anyja.(7)
        Sza'z e'vvel ezelo"tt csak nagyon keve's kutato' sejtett
valamit a nagy o'kori ne'pro"l, melyet ke'so"bb mint sumi'r ne'pet
emli'tenek e's amelyro"l ma ma'r tudjuk tudjuk, hogy az ege'sz
nyugati kultu'ra forra'sa o"k voltak; valla'si fogalmaik ko:zt is
sok elo"ke'p van, melyek ke'so"bb a kereszte'nyse'gben vira'goztak
ki. Az elmu'lt e'vtizedek sora'n sza'mos munka foglalkozott a
sumi'r mitolo'gia'val (8) e's ezek alapja'n ele'g vila'gos ke'pet
alkothatunk magunknak legala'bbis a ne'pszeru:bb, a feliratokban
gyakran szereplo" istenek alakja'ro'l. Bau' bizonyosan ezek ko:ze'
tartozik.
        Sokan vitatta'k, hogy a sok istenno"-ne'v e's ke'p ko:zu:l
melyek tartoznak Bau' alakja'hoz. Terme'szetes, hogy az e'vezredek
sora'n va'ltoztak a hiedelmek, de u'gyla'tszik hogy Baba. a
"szu:lete'st ado'" ugyanaz volt, aki Bau', az "e'lelem ado'" o: aki
Gu'la a "hatalmas"o: aki Mah, a "nagy"; aki Nin-Anna, a "meny
ne'nje"; aki Gatum-dug, "jo'sa'gos nagyasszony" vagy Gasan-Anna,
"asszonya a menyeknek".
        Az istenno" alapterme'szete're a jelbo"l
ko:vetkeztethetu:nk, mellyel a Bau' nevet i'rta'k. O:sjele a
BAN-nak nevezett u:rme'rte'k, egy telt ede'ny ke'pe, melybo"l
to:lt, ad, kime'r juttat az istenno". Valo'szinu:leg ez az ede'ny
a ke'so"bbi bo"se'gszaru o"ske'pe, a BAN, melyben ott van minden
dolog teljesse'ge. Az utolso' hang ido"k ja'rta'val lekopott, csak
az u:rme'rte'k neve'ben maradt meg; a megfelelo" ige a BA lett,
melynek jelente'se; "add, juttat"(9) Az U fu:vet, legelo"t,
no:ve'nyzetet, e'lelmet jelent.
        Bau' a sumi'r hi'vo" sza'ma'ra a bo"se'g nagyasszonya volt,
a nagy aja'nde'kozo'. A viharisten tombola'sa uta'n o" mosolygott
a sziva'rva'nyban. O: a ta'pla'lo', a teremte'st ado', a szu:lete's
, az anya, a csecsemo", az e'let ve'do"je. Ruha'ja minden fodra'ban
meg nem szu:letett gyermekek bujka'lnak.(10) Hi'mnuszok
di'cso"i'tik mint a hatalmas Gu'la't, aki gyo'gyi't, ko:zbenja'r,
az e'g kira'lyne'ja e's a "vila'gnak vila'gja". A ku:lo:no:s
kifejeze'sbo"l, hogy o" a "halottak meggyorsi'to'ja", tala'n arra
ko:vetkeztethetu:nk, hogy e'lt az ero"s hit arro'l, hogy a
tu'lvila'gi va'ndorla's megro:vidi'theto" e's van u'jja'szu:lete's.
        Az o"smitolo'gia'k Magna Matereit a'ltala'ban jellemzo"
szu:lo"boldogasszonyi stb. jellemvona'sokon tu'l vannak Bau'nak
egye'b jellegzetesse'gei is. Ku'ltusza'nak legto:bb emle'ke't a
lagashi (va'ros romjai) a'sata'sokbo'l ismerju:k, melyeknek
anyaga't a Louvre o"rzi. Lagash va'rosistene Ninurta napisten, kit
Landgon a bibliai Nimvro'ddal azonosi'tott. Tudjuk, hogy kro'nika's
hogyoma'nyaink,
-bizonya'ra nem ve'letlenu:l,
-Nimro'dto'l sza'rmaztatja'k a magyarsa'got (o"seink).

        Lagashban e'vente nagy u:nnepse'ggel u:lte'k meg a helyi
kisisten, az isteni he'rosz e's hozza' leereszkedo" nagy
terme'kenyse'g-istenno" ha'zassa'ga'nak napja't. A va'rosistennek
ilyenkor mo'dja'ban a'llt kike'rni hatalmas asszonya kegyeit ne'pe
sza'ma'ra. Ismeru:nk fejedelmi ha'la-aja'nde'kot , melyet Ninurta
aze'rt kapott, mert "jo' szo't szo'lt" a fejedelem e'rdeke'ben az
istenno"ne'l.
        Bau' kifejezetten a fu: e's fa, a terme's e's arata's
asszonya. Ku:lo:nleges u:nnepe, mikor a ne'p elo"szo:r eszik az u'j
gabonaterme'sbo:l.(11) Gondoljunk a magyar falvak u:nnepe're, az
u'j kenye'r napja'ra e's a Sarlo's Boldogasszonyra.
        Ku:lo:n tanulma'ny ta'rgya't ke'pezhetne'k az u'gynevezett
"boldogasszony fu:vek", melyeket ne'pu:nk a templomba visz
szenteltetni, fo"leg Nagyboldogasszony napja'n.(12) Ilyen a
csomborka (Mentha Pulegium, L.)(13) a napraforgo'; ezeket mego"rzik
e's halottaik melle'teszik a koporso'ba. Az o:ko:rfarkko'rro' pedig
a boszorka'nyok elkergete'se're hasznos.(14) Egye'b rege's
no:ve'nyek nevei: Boldogasszony haja, tenyere, cipello"je, stb.
        Az o"si a'bra'zola'sok ne'melyike'n feltu:nik a Nagyasszony
mellet az u'gynevezett "lagasi ci'mer" a'llata, a kiterjesztett
sza'rnyu napmada'r, a mindig visszate'ro" fe'nyes sas.(15)
Gondoljunk a re'gi A'rpa'd-cimer e's eredetmonda'nk turul
madara'ra. (A sumir TUR szo' visszate're'st, megifjoda'st jelent,
az UL pedig e'letero"t.)
        A sas mellet ma's madarai is vannak az istenno"nek; ezeket
nem ko:nnyu: meghata'rozni. Daru? Liba? Go'lya? Egyik mada'rnak a
neve a BA piktogrammal kezdo"dik; ez a fecske. (Diemel S.L. No. 5;
"Swalbe") Meggondolando', hogy Magyarorsza'gon igen elterjedt hit,
hogy fecske e's go'lya a Boldogasszony madarai.
        A sumir pecse'thengereken sorban felvonulo' e's
Nagyasszonynak ivo'ede'nyt nyu'jto' no"k ke'pe elemi ero"vel e's
pa'ratlan pontossa'ggal ide'zi a sokszor lei'rt magyar
ne'pszoka'st, a "Boldogasszony pohara'nak mega'lda'sa" ke'pe't.(16)
        Az asszonyok titkos avato' gyu:le'se'n, melyen fe'rfi nem
lehet jelen, a legtekinte'lyesebb o:regasszony kinyu'jtott
tenyere'n felaja'nl a Boldogasszonynak egy ta'nye'rra tett poha'r
bort e's egy su:teme'nyt, megko:szo:nve a szu:le's ko:ru:li
segi'tse'get e's boldogsa'got ke'rve az u'jszu:lo:tt sza'ma'ra.
Mint Szegeden e'rtesu:ltem erro"l, az a'ldozat elmu'laszta'sa azzal
ja'r, hogy az u'jszu:lo:tt felno"tt kora'ban, "ha fiu', nem kap
la'nyt, ha la'ny, nem kap fiu't." (Adatszolga'ltato'm Sa'nta
Katalin (50 e'ves) 1928-ban.
        A feltu:no" e's ku:lo:nleges egyeze'sek ko:ze' tartozik a
Boldogasszonyokkal kapcsolatban makacsul emlegetett hetes sza'm,
melyhez a szegedi ne'p a ko:zelmu'ltban is ragaszkodott. Nehe'z
ve'letlen egyeze'snek tartani azt, hogy e'kira'sos szo:vegek
szerint Bau' e's Ninurta'nak (Nimrodnak) he't la'ny szu:lt, ezek
mind bo"se'get a'raszto' isteni jo'tevo"k. (17)
        A magyar hagyoma'ny Nagyboldogasszonya'nak legifjabb e's
szu:z la'nya a Kisasszony. Mezopota'mia'ban is a'tvette volt
ke'so:bbi korokban Bau' ege'sz szerepe't egy ifjabb, szu:z
istenno", Inanna-Istar. Maga a nagyboldogasszony azonban nem a
szu:zse'g, hanem a szaporoda's pa'rtfogo'ja. Kitu:nik ez egyik sok
va'ltozatban ismert ne'pi ja'te'kunkbo'l. Lea'nyai
ko:ru:lta'ncolja'k a fo:ldi anya megszeme'lyesito"je't, aki po:ro:l
a ko:ro:n ki'vu:l ja'ro' Boldogasszonnyal:

        -Boldogasszony, mit keru:lo:d, mit fordulod az e'n ha'zam
          ta'ja't?
        -Azt keru:lo:m, azt fordulom, la'nyod ke'retem, la'nyodat
          ke'retem!
        -O ne tagadd, ne tagadd el!...
         -modja a Boldogasszony, aki a szimbo'likus ta'ncban
         egyenke'nt
     viszi el a fo:ldi anya la'nyait, a maga gyo:nyo:ru:se'ges
szolga'lata'ra.(18)
        Emlitsu:k meg a sumir uralkodo'k neve'ben is gyakran
kifejezett felfoga'st, mely szerint a va'ros istense'g tulajdona
e's abban "Istenne' a sza'lla's"!  Az uralkodo' csupa'n o"re,
lovagja, fegyveres szolga'ja az istenasszonynak, akinek esetleg
fe'rju:l szolga'l. Erre mutatnak az Ur-Nammu, Ur-Nina, Ur-Nanshe,
Ur-Baba e's egye'b fejedelmi nevek.(19) Szent La'szlo' is "Szu:z
Ma'ria'nak va'lasztott vite'ze".
        A mezopota'miai isteneket ido"k ja'rta'val egyre gyakrabban
jelezte'k ke'pu:k helyet a cimeru:kkel, jelke'pu:kkel, ku:lo:no:sen
a tarto'sa'guk miatt sze'p sza'mban fennmaradt hata'rko:veken. Anu
e's Enlil istenek jelei pe'lda'ul olta'rra tett hegyes su:vegeik.
Bau' szimboluma'nak mibenle'te bizonytalan; "megforditott
o'megaszeru:
-jelnek szokta'k lei'rni, Ward szerint ez tala'n az istenno"
haja.(20) Valo'szinu:bb, hogy a fa'tyola, fejko:to:je: a
sziva'rva'ny, ne'pi szo'val ba'bukra. Valo'szinu:leg ez a
mezopota'miai bo:lcseletben a vila'gmindense'g o:sszetarto'jake'nt
ismert "nagy ko:tele'k" az isteni kegyelem jele. Bizonyosan
o:sszefu:gg ezzel a fogalommal a nai'v magyar ne'phit, mely szerint
a terhes asszonynak a haja'ban piros szallagot kell ko:tnie e's a
Boldogasszony tisztelete're szigoruan fo"ko:to"ben kell feku:dnie
a Boldogasszony a'gya't. A tulipa'nszeru:, "megforditott omega"
amely emle'keztet az asztrolo'gia Me'rleg jegye'nek o'mega'ja'ra
is, elo"szo:r az o"si "kuduru" (hata'r, re'gi magyar forma'ban
hutur) ko:veken jelenik meg, e'kira'sos szo:vegekkel, melyek
a jelzett istenek haragja't hi'vja'k arra, aki a ko"vel ve'det
hata'rt, vagy si'rt megha'boritana'. Az e'gi istenek o:sszevont
jelve'nye;
fu:ggo:legesen egyma's fo:le' helyezett rozetta'k, fe'lhold e's
tulipa'n, sza'mos pe'lda'nyban keru:lt elo" a nagy szittya ne'pnek,
a pa'rthusoknak Hatra nevu: va'rosa'bo'l. (21) Ugyanezen gondolat
ve'gso" forma'i vannak ra'faragva magyar e's sze'kely
kapuba'lva'nyokra, kopjafa'kra. A tulipa'nforma az E'let
Nagyasszonya'nak ci'mere, a szivalak Darmahnak, a csodaszarvasnak
emble'ma'ja. (O'Magyar Doromo)
        Tala'n nem ve'letlen, hogy a sumir e'kira's BAN e's BA
jelente'su: jegye benso" kapcsolatban van a BAR-nak olvasott
egyszeru: X-forma'ju' jeggyel,(22) ami to:bbek ko:zo:tt
sziva'rva'nyt is jelent;  hogy a magyar rova'si'ra'sban a B hangot
ugyancsak X-forma jelo:li; hogy duna'ntu'li pa'sztorfaraga'sokon
gyakran la'tjuk a tulipa'n alatt a kihangsu'lyozott X jelet.
(kopjafa'kon is)
        Ve'gu:l hallgassuk meg a nevek tanu'sa'gte'tele't. A BA'BA
pa'r e'vsza'zad elo"tt a magyar nyelvben is a mennybolt
nagyasszonya't jelentette, a sziva'rva'ny e's a de'liba'b
tu:nde're't.(23) Azt, aki a szu:lete'sne'l segit (mint ba'ba
asszony). Csak ido"k ja'rta'val tapadtak hozza' a ve'nasszony e's
boszorka'ny jelente'sek.(24)
        A BOLDOGASSZONY-nak megfelelo" o:sszete'telt e'kira'sban
nem ismeru:nk. De fel ismerheto" a ha'rom gyo:k, melyekbo"l a ne'v
alakulhatott: BAU "e'lelemado'", DUG "jo'sa'gos", ASAN "istenno",
uralkodo'no"".(25) Ku:lo:n-ku:lo:n mindha'rom elem elo"fordul a
Magna mater sumir nevei ko:zt. A saja'tos magyar o:sszete'tel
egybeforrada'sa bizonya'ra a ne'ma e'vezredben to:rte'nt meg, mikor
a ma'gusok uto'dai bujdoso' lovasnoma'dokka' lettek. Ez kb. Kr.e.
500 e's Kr.U. 500 ko:zt lehetett, mikor az a'rva ne'pet csendben
vezette a Boldogasszony csillagszekere (26) a dunavo:lgyi
ige'retfo:ld fele'.
        A BOLDOG-ASSZONY elneveze's megtala'lhato' az e'kiratokon,
mint ahogyan Dr. Gosztonyi "Dictionnaire DEtymologie Sumerienne et
Grammaire Compare'e" c. munka'ja'ban a 132. szo'fejte's alatt a
sumir BA-DUG o:sszete'telt azonositja a magyar Bo'dog szavunkkal
e's ASAN =istenno", uralkodo'no".
+ - Re: Pizza Huts and McDonalds (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Eva Durant
> writes:
>
>>
>> I live in Pizza Huts' and McDonalds' country of origin but I don't ever
visit
>> them, either in the United States or abroad. However, most people seem to
>> like them in this country as well as abroad from China to Poland or Hungary.
>> If all those Russians, Poles, Hungarians, and so forth, are flocking to
these
>> places, who am I to criticize them? Eva Balogh
>
>Mass manipulation? I had to admit I visited one such establishment lately
>in Manchester with nieces from Hungary who wuldn't go anywhere else, and
> I enjoyed it, one of the few places with air conditioning -
>not usually a necessity round here.
>I made my original remark as I've heard complaints about
>difficulty to find Hungarian cooking in Budapest, my overall impression
>agrees with this (brief visit last Easter).

Hmmm....try 'City Grill' on Va'ci Utca, they make great hamburgers, hungarian
style ! (spicy!) :-)

/stefan
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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+ - Magyar-Slovak Bike Trip Advice Request (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Some friends and I plan to bicycle through Hungary and the Slovak Republic
starting in early September for about three weeks.  The tentative route
starts in Vienna, passes through Budapest, and returns through the Slovak
republic.

I would appreciate any advice regarding interesting destinations,
appropriate routes to follow, possible events, and any other relevant
information.

Thanks in advance.

Matthew Brown

+ - Re: interpretation of the 1994 election res (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Norb writes:
> Put shortly, Mr. Kornai attributes the success of the MSZP to a public
> uprising against the so-called "Christian-national" ideology
> (whatever that is).
No, that's way overstating my position: the success of MSZP is due mostly to
dissatisfaction with MDF (and its coalition partners) and the C-N ideology
was only one of the many components of that dissatisfaction. I think the
election was decided largely (though not 100%) on economic issues, and said
so in quite a few postings. I don't understand the rhetorical stance
expressed in the parenthetical remark: do you need a refresher course in C-N
stuff? Most emigre papers carry nothing but C-N crap: I'd be delighted to
suggest a few titles if you wish to subscribe:-).

> Obviously there were some in the MDF who wanted a
> more "Christian" state and a more nationalistic Hungary, but to say
> that that sort of thinking has been a hallmark of the past four
> years is greatly debatable.
Well let's debate it. What was this whole thing about the Kulturkampf,
and what was this foreign policy of explicitely keeping the issue of
border revisions open (known in Hungarian politicalese as "a hata1rokkal
kapcsolatos a1lla1spont lebegtete1se")?

> Mr. Kornai makes it out as if the presence of chaplains
> in the military had been a prior controversy, when in fact it had not.
This is oughtright falsification of my postings: you make a straw man and
then attack it. I never said there was a controversy about army chaplancies
and I challenge you to find anything in my postings that says anything of
the sort. People took for granted the restoration of these positions, as
well as the restoration of several traditional roles of the church, such as
in caring for the sick and the old, and education. What they did not take
for granted was the extent of agressive help from the state in this,
especially in areas like education which are everywhere a focal point of
separating the church and the state. Many of them took exception to the
dismantling of well functioning institutions in the name of returning them
to the church, and many of them were/are vary of the institutional powergrab
(in Hungarian jargon "nyomula1s") of the various churches.

> Since as I said before, chaplains can be found in many
> nations' armed forces, and as such, has nothing to do with the
> ideology of the state,
Really? I assume you would consider the party comissars "politikai tisztek"
in the army as having to do with the ideology of the state.  I assume you
think it makes a big difference what kind of mullahs an Arab state has
(or doesn't have) in the army. I assume you think it makes a big difference
whether Jehovah's Witnesses are forcibly drafted or sent to prison. This
professed innocence about the political impact of whose ideology gets an
official role in the army is comparable to your professed innocence about
the nature of C-N ideology.

> I find it hard not to come to the conclusion that the present government
> is not merely trying to "relieve" tax payers of this burden, but are
> actually trying to inhibit the practice of religion.
When I see privates complaining about this I'll believe it. As it happens,
there is quite a bit of religious interest in Hungary, but most of it is
outside the bounds of the mainstream churches (as in the New Yorker cartoon
showing a bunch of hippies with "Jesus saves" signs outside a great big
church with a priest leaning out the door shouting: Go away! This is *my*
corner!) and guess what? these grassroots religious communities have a
rather anti-military outlook.

> Why should a secular, democratic government
> be afraid of providing for the spiritual needs of its soldiers?
They are not afraid: army chaplains are a fact, and will remain so.

> Should the US government not fund the USO because it provides tax
> funded entertainment to a small segment of society?
What has this got to do with the USO? Is life imitating Greg's art here?

>      Finally, just a specific example of how one of Mr. Kornai's
> misrepresentations was unmasked by the RFE (in this case, an RFE
> Research Report):
I see tremendous rhetoric, but no "misrepresentation" got "unmasked":
I stand by my earlier analysis.

> Several months ago, Mr. Kornai described the
> split in the FIDESZ and the reasons for the party's loss of
> popularity.  According to him, the Orban faction moved closer to
> the governing coalition (entailing that Orban's faction embraced
> "Christian-nationalism"), a move which resulted in a tremendous
> loss of popular support.  However, that is not what happened.
If there is misrepresentation here, it's yours: I did say that Orba1n moved
closer to the governing coalition, but I never said he embraced C-N. He made
noises about being "nemzeti" as part of a larger move of positioning himself
and his party to the right of SZDSZ, but I doubt his position on issues of
church/state separation is colored by an Christian sympathies.

> True, Orban moved closer to the coalition parties, but the major
> loss of support occurred because while Orban kept true to the
> FIDESZ's fiscal conservative platform, Fodor's wing drifted
> economically leftward and supported social policies which were
> fiscally inconsistent with what the FIDESZ advocated!
I agree with this: Orba1n kept a hard-line financial stance, for which I
personally admire him, but it sure as hell didn't win him votes. He also
made a rather strong anti-reformsocialist election stance, making clear that
he will under no circumstances collaborate with MSZP. SZDSZ (and the Fodor
wing of Fidesz) swallod hard and started to cooperate with MSZP. Orba1n's
stance was clear, well-articulated, consistent with his prior beliefs, and
in many other ways sympathetic to me, but not to the voting public in
general.

> In short, the population's aversion to economic reforms brought about the
> demise of the FIDESZ as well as the victory for the MSZP.
This is oversimplified -- as the bon mot says, there was shock but no
therapy. The population accepted some hard measures, and Be1kesi did not
come without some ideas about belt-tightening. How much of that will
actually happen we'll see: devaluating the forint by 8% was a good first step.

> (But then, why would Mr. Kornai know of this if his major news source is
> the Magyar Narancs, the mouthpiece of the Fodor faction?)
Again this is overstated. With the departure of one MaNcs editor who was
offered the chice between loyalty to Orba1n and loyalty to the journal (and
choose the former) it is true that MaNcs is significantly more Fodor-ist
than the (remaining) membership of Fidesz. Yet there is quite a range of
opinions represented in there, with most of their key journalists having no
political axe to grind.

In summary, Norb attributes to me the view that ideology is more important
than economics in deciding the elections (including the fate of Fidesz) and
rakes me over hot coals for holding this view. Well in fact I hold the
opposite view, namely that elections are typically decided on economic
issues (and expressed this view often enough to be quite appalled by this
misrepresentation) but I also noted that in the matter at hand (to what
extent representatives of various churches get integrated into the army)
is not an economical issue: whatever the outcome, the financial impact is
negligible. This is, in my view, a rather clearly ideological issue, which
should actually be decided on an ideological basis. What I see is MSZP/SZDSZ
putting an end to the churches' "nyomula1s", and I'm delighted seeing it.

I should also add here that in the US, a country built on liberal principles
of separating church and state, and with absolutely minimal history of the
religious right abusing its power (it might still come big time if the Moral
Majority gets its way -- religious fundamentalism seems to be the up and
coming thing in the GOP) it doesn't seriously matter whether "In God We
Trust" is printed on the coins. Hungary is not such a country: it has a
significant history of C-N governments whose track record have been
discussed on this list extensively...

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: The army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E1va Balogh writes:
> First of all, philosophically speaking, atheism is an untenable proposition.
I think this is true. Nevertheless, it is a convenient label, often
self-applied, to denote a negation of Church dogma, "NOT believing in the
existence of God", rather than positive belief in the nonexistence of God
(which would be an epistemologically problematic stance to maintain, though
there are atheists who try nevertheless).

> Second, one may argue that religious education while one is growing
> up is a good idea.
One may. One may argue the opposite, namely that religion, in particular
institutionalized religion, is poison. Many in the US religious right would
argue that it is the reprehensible theories of physics and biology,
especially evolution, that poisons the mind of the young. So there is quite
a bit of disagreement on this matter, from the little metal fish on the
trunk of the car that says JESUS to the one with legs that says DARWIN.

> Most of the people of Hungary today has no familiarity at all with
> religion and therefore they never had the chance to make an informed decision
.
For some reason you equate religion with its institutionalized form. In fact
there has been a tremendous resurgence of interest in matters religious at
least since the late seventies, and religious communities, from New Age
Christian to Krishna Consciousness are all over the place. This resurgence
has largely bypassed the officially approved churches. This is partly
because of the world-wide perception of these churches, first and formost
the Roman Catholic church, as ossified, conservative, and stupid -- a
sentiment well expressed by Sine1ad O'Connor (a pop singer and youth idol
you probably never heard of) who took the opportunity in one of the
prime-time TV shows (Letterman?) to display a picture of John Paul II and
tear it up with the comment "This is the enemy".

Another reason, peculiar to Eastern Europe, was that in many places the
traditional churches were perceived as collaborating with the communists
(particularly noteworthy in this respect the "Peace on Earth" movement in
Czechoslovakia). In Hungary, the limp-wristed reaction of the official
church hierarchy to the problems crated by the communist practice of jailing
conscientious objectors was one of the key issues that led many young people
into various sects. (I should perhaps add here that the Jewish hierarchy was
just as collaborationist as its Christian conterparts.) What I find
particularly disgusting in the powergrab of these institutionalized
religions is that they are so eager to make their representatives official
in another institution, never mind that this other institution, by its very
nature, happens to be devoted to killing.

> says Andras. Yes, I am surprised. Does this mean, by the way, that you would
> be ready to dismantle the hundreds and hundreds of research institutes which
> are currently financed by the Hungarian government?
The issue is almost moot: with budgets like in the past five years, the work
of dismantling these institutes is effectively completed. What remains is
either self-supporting (like computer science, applied physics) or
low-budget (like history or philosophy). The researchers support themselves
from money they save up as visiting professors at western universities, and
there is practically no funding for research that takes resources beyond
paper and pencil.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Australian wine (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 23 Aug 1994 23:25:36 -0600 Norbert Walter said:
>
>    Do you have any recommendations?
>
--Where are you?  I can't make it out from the garbage at the top of
the screen.  If you are in the U.S., try the Rosemont Shiraz or Cabernet
Sauvignon.  Both are good cheap wines.  Imi Bokor recommended a number of
others, but I couldn't find most of them either here or in Birmingham.  If
you can stand Chardonnay, Rosemont's is as good as any.  I've bought some
of Imi's recommendations--the ones I could find--but haven't drunk them
yet.  He did recommend one that I tried that wasn't anything special, but
I can't find his list just now, and can't remember the name.  He didn't
think it was special either, just passable.

Charles
+ - Re: Andras Kornai's interpretation of the 1994 election (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:

> It can be argued that since in civilian life governments do not
> normally subsidize their citizens' religious activities they need
> not do that in the armed services either, as long as soldiers are
> allowed to use religous services provided by whomever else.

Yes, except in the military your life is controlled to an extreme,
as is the life of every member of the military, so there cannot be
a spontaneous establishment of any non-military institutions,
religous or otherwise; you cannot start a business while in the
military, cannot chose where to live or what your job is, etc.
The military has an obligation to maintain some fundamental
elements of your life -they must feed and shelter you, take care
of your health needs, and provide the opportunity to maintain
your spiritual life, especially in the case of major spiritual
institutions.  For example, if 75% of the soldiers are Methodists,
it makes sense to provide a Methodist minister.  If 1% of the soldiers
is Methodist, 1% Baptist, 1% Muslim, 1% from some cult, etc, it
can become impractical if there are 30 or 300 denominations, but in
general the military (government) take on more responsibility for
your welfare since they reduce your freedom.

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s Kornai writes:

> This is partly because of the world-wide perception of these
> [officially approved] churches, first and formost the Roman
> Catholic church, as ossified, conservative, and stupid

But of course you have nothing but respect for those few score ordinary
people who choose to attend these churches, right?

> -- a
> sentiment well expressed by Sine1ad O'Connor (a pop singer and youth idol
> you probably never heard of) who took the opportunity in one of the
> prime-time TV shows (Letterman?) to display a picture of John Paul II and
> tear it up with the comment "This is the enemy".

Saturday Night Live, I think, and which action got her booed off a stage, in
 tears
(in Central Park?) shortly thereafter.  Or was it her refusal to sing (stand
 for?)
the national anthem?  ...if memory serves.


> What I find
> particularly disgusting in the powergrab of these institutionalized
> religions is that they are so eager to make their representatives official
> in another institution, never mind that this other institution, by its very
> nature, happens to be devoted to killing.

Oh dear.  You couldn't be a leeeeetle bit charitable and assume part of
the reason they are there is to try to improve this institution devoted
to killing?  And that
to better serve their co-religionists, it helps to be "official"?

Naturally, first one must admit that the ossified, conservative, and
stupid can still act in good faith--oops, is that a bad word to bring up?  :-)


--Greg
+ - Re: restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles:

>Have you tried the original Poon's in Soho?

You mean NYC?  I assume it is English.

Paul
+ - Re: restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On my trip to Norway in February, I was surprised to find at least 3 McDonalds'
in Oslo. As a symbol of my surrender to the persuing McDonalds', I broke down
 and
bought a hamburger and fries - my first time eating McDonalds food since I'm
12-13yrs old!!  It was as bad as I expected (I haven't been to B-King since
high school, but I do think it is better than McD).

Paul
+ - Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

THAAAANK YOOOOOU GREEEEEEG!

I haven't started reading the 'army' thread, but I did notice the
addition of Sinead to the subject on this post so I read it, and
boy was I glad to see your response to Andra1s Kornai.

What Andra1s forgets  is that the main objection to the Catholic
Church is it's conservative (unenlightened? ;-) ) position on social
issues. ie abortion, pre-marital sex, homosexuality, etc.  Funny how
the 'unenlightened' ones condemn other for their views, rather than
something meaningful like hipocrocy or inconsistancy.  They condemn the
Church for it's teachings.  They should understand that the provides an
absolute reference for conduct.  The very fact that teachings do not
change is the point - what God said 2000 or 4000 years ago is THE
absolute truth.  It is not open to interpretation, at least not the
fundemental doctrine.  The debate through the years has usually been
over how to apply the doctrine to present day condictions.  Though
what is accepted as fashionable today be society, or what is fashionable
in one society different from in another, may change with time, the
doctrine is fixed.  It is only the application to a situation that can
be discussed.  For example, for a Christian, killing is wrong, PERIOD!
What the 'enlightened' ones prefess is that it is up to a woman to
ecide if she wants to kill her fetus, and she can base the decision on
whatever - economics, convenience, or anything else.  The very fact that
the Church disagrees with this 'enlightened' doctrine is the cause for
ridicule. VEEEERY FAIR, right?

> What I find
> particularly disgusting in the powergrab of these institutionalized
> religions is that they are so eager to make their representatives official
> in another institution, never mind that this other institution, by its very
> nature, happens to be devoted to killing.

Huh?  Please site examples here.  For sure there were times over that last
2000 years that corrupt people grabbed power by claiming to be rightous,
but that would be like saying liberal/enlightened views are bullxxxx because
the 'Great Society' programs in the 1960s in the US failed, and have become
selfserving sources of jobs for political cronies.  Many liberals from the
1960 in the US are now more conservative that they are older/wiser.  Are
they all hipocrits?  Were they fools when they were younger?  Is liberalism
therefore a characteristic of immaturity?  No institution is comprised of
only perfect people, but that is not a reason to condemn it.  The doctrine of
the Church has been consistant through the years, and that is it's purpose,
to provide a universal, eternal reference for the behavior of people.

l
Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Army and Church (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>> GET THE CHURCH OUT OF MY HAIR.
>Get artists out of mine.  No public funding for the arts.  If it makes
>a soldier's life a little more tolerable to find spiritual solace in art,
>too bad.  Let them suffer.  After all, what do they do for me?
>--Greg

Yeeeeah!  What Greg said - for me too!

Paul
+ - political parties (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Would someone please, for my edification, summarize the parties,
with name, abreviated name, and general philosophy/position.  I have
trouble keeping them straight, ie MSZSZ, MSZMP/MSZP, FIDESZ, etc.

Thanks for taking the trouble,
        Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Army and Church (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc Nasdor shamelessly wrote:

>Greg--
>
>Easy to blame artists for the decline of civilization and the corruption of
>American womanhood, eh?
>
>I've yet to meet a publicly-funded artist who commited mass murder (like the
>U.S. military on occasion [a publicly-funded institution]), or mass deception
>(like the presidency [remember Iran-Contra?]).
>
>It's kind of amusing to see certain rightists get hot under the collar at a
>group of people with such little real influence in society.


Artists ARE to blame for the "decline of civilization and the corruption of
American womanhood', so to speak.  The daily grinding away of morals by
day after day publicly displaying indecent images, especially to the young,
who then are taught by these images that, hey, there is nothing wrong with
meeting someone in a bar at 9pm, and being in his/her pants by 11pm.  Good
clean, healthy sex - good exercise, like jogging, and it relieves stress.
Well, it's not ok.  Such images are against Christian teachings, and most
Europeans and Westerners are Christians.  Such images serve to undermine
civilization because they offer only a onesided view of morality, and by
their nature as a repeated expression of the same idea serve to influence
people - just as what is commonly called 'brainwashing' is achieved by
repeatedly expressing the same idea.  When done correctly, most adults
cannot defend themselves against such influence, as can be seen by the
fact that 'brainwashing' has been used widely as a military tool.

Children are less able to defend themselves from such influence, and
artists are the source of this influence in modern society.

As to Marc's comment about publicly-funded artists not committing mass
murder like to US military, true, but that is part of the job of the
military, isn't it, within the limits of the rules of war.  War=killing.
When has the US military undertaken a policy of mass murder?  I cannot
think of such a time, since the military has not (that I know of)
ever picked up and gone to war.  Usually it has been directed by the
government [a publicly-funded institution] to go to war.  I did not
hear of any accusations against the US military during the Gulf War,
Greneda, or Panama, concerning 'mass murder' of civilians, as is the
customary way to perform mass murder (mass murder against troops, the
way I understand it, is what is intended).  If you want to talk about
the US government [a publicly-funded institution] instructing local
goons in Central America to commit these crimes, you'd have a point.
But we do condemn that, and people have been tried for that, and we
concider that wrong.  Therefore, it would be perfectly consistant to
take the same view of publicly-funded artists would produce images
(on a large scale) detrimental to young people, and in contradiction
to our morals, would it not?

>It's kind of amusing to see certain rightists get hot under the collar at a
>group of people with such little real influence in society.

Such little influence?  Are you nuts??  TV commercials have little
influence too, right?  Companies provide those glitzy clips as a
public service - yeah right.


                Images=influence=power


Paul 'the hot under the collar rightists' Gelencser
+ - Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul Gelencser writes:

> THAAAANK YOOOOOU...

One week, two blushes, yowza!  I'm going to have to raise my rates.

> Though
> what is accepted as fashionable today by society, or what is fashionable
> in one society differently from in another, may change with time, the
> doctrine is fixed.

As St. George of Will says, "Mistake not changing fashion for
advancing wisdom."


> For example, for a Christian, killing is wrong, PERIOD!

Err, rather: killing of innocents is wrong semi-colon since the
the Old Testament teaching "...the murderer shall surely be put
to death" still sways many Christians.

[deletions]
> The doctrine of
> the Church has been consistant through the years, and that is it's purpose,
> to provide a universal, eternal reference for the behavior of people.

Well, 1/2 right, which is good enough for me  :-)

--Greg
+ - Re: Army and Church (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul Gelencser writes:

> Such little influence?  Are you nuts??  TV commercials have little
> influence too, right?

The phrase that springs to mind is "coercive advertising".

--Greg
+ - Re: restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994 18:54:35 EDT paul said:
>Charles:
>
>>Have you tried the original Poon's in Soho?
>
>You mean NYC?  I assume it is English.
>
--No!  Soho in London.  And Poon's is Chinese!  I mentioned in an aside to
Eva Durant who is in Manchester.  I thought she had complained about the
McDonald's in London.  I think that this is one of those things where you
had to be there when it happened.  I'm getting confused, myself.

Charles
+ - Re: The army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s Kornai shamelessly wrote:

>because of the world-wide perception of these churches, first and formost
>the Roman Catholic church, as ossified, conservative, and stupid -- a

Well, if you want to call a few descenters in every country as constituting
a 'world-wide perception', I guess you can make that argument, but
acceptance of the Catholic Chruch is growing around the world, though it
may be declining a bit in Europe.  In the US, the Catholic Church is very
strong.  It would be more accurate for you to say 'globally scattered
perception', but the words you use are, as always, up to you.

>traditional churches were perceived as collaborating with the communists
>(particularly noteworthy in this respect the "Peace on Earth" movement in
>Czechoslovakia)

Would you provide more info on this - as unbiased as possible, if you please.
I haven't heard specifics about 'how' churches were supposed to
collaborate with the communists.

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994 20:15:50 EDT paul said:
                For example, for a Christian, killing is wrong, PERIOD!

--Here again, I must flaunt my expensive theological education.  In
Christian theology killing is not always wrong.  Murder is wrong.
There's a difference.  In fact, and I don't want to get into a long
Hebrew exegesis here, the commandment does not say "Thou shalt not
kill."  The proper translation is "You shall not do murder."

  Many liberals from the
>1960 in the US are now more conservative that they are older/wiser.  Are
>they all hipocrits?

  Were they fools when they were younger?

--Yes, probably.

    Is liberalism
>therefore a characteristic of immaturity?

--The 1960s kind is, yes.

Charles
+ - Re: Army and Church (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s Kornai wrote:

>as far as I am concerned (again, speaking strictly for myself and the
>majority of Hungarians who happen to be atheists or just don't take the
>established churces to be appropriate representatives of their religious
>sensibilities)

In other words, you are just speaking for yourself, and everyone else.  How
decent and modest of you, I think.

>the soldiers (who are also voters, btw)

Yes, but the minority in your view, and therefore, 'sorry, but we can't help
 you'.

>And no, I'm not opposed to giving physicians a rank in the army.
>Does this imply that I think a soldier's mere life and bodily integrity is
>more important than his immortal soul? You betcha.

So, you would treat someones own view of their immortal soul, as you would
as just another practice he would have to sacrifice during military service,
as his habit of meeting his friend for a beer on Saturday night, or sleeping
till late when he wants, or going on vacation whenever he chooses.
Religion is a fundamental attribute of Hungarian society.  Is has played a
central, positive, part in it's history.  It cannot be as thoughtlessly
denied to someone as any other part of his life.  To religous folks,
religion IS more important than their social habits.  If you cannot
understand that, you truly do need to become more sensitive to the
points of view of others, Andra1s.

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994 13:16:56 +0100 Eva Durant said:
>
>Any time minus bitter.

--You live in England and don't like beer?  One of the most magic
nights of my life was in a pub in Leeds.  My wife and I sat and
destroyed many pints of bitter while arguing politics with three
British colleagues.  May not sound like much to you, but to two
aging Americans who planned for twenty years to go to England, it
was a romantic adventure.  I miss the bitter!  Come to think of it,
there's a few bottles of Newcastle Brown Ale in the fridge.  Excuse me.

>(I complained about such places in Budapest but apperently they
>are obligatory accompaniment of democracy)

--No.  Just bad taste.
+ - Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg:

>> the Church has been consistant through the years, and that is it's purpose,
>> to provide a universal, eternal reference for the behavior of people.
>Well, 1/2 right, which is good enough for me  :-)

Which 1/2?

Paul
+ - Teach history in Eastern Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Shamelessly stolen from soc.history.moderated:

> -------------------------------------------------------------

Civic Education Project is an international not-for-profit
organization devoted to the strengthening of democracy in Eastern
Europe and the former Soviet Union through the revitalization of the
social sciences in universities and institutes of higher education.
Through its visiting professor program, CEP sends Western-trained
scholars to teach and advise at universities in Albania, Bulgaria,
the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland,
Romania, Russia, Slovakia and Ukraine.  Teaching assignments are
initially for one year, during which lecturers teach university-level
courses in economics, history, law, political science, public
administration, and sociology, and also work on outreach and
research. Lectures are conducted in English, and transportation,
housing, insurance, teaching materials and a living stipend are
provided to program participants.  Faculty and advanced graduate
students are encouraged to apply.  Write for a brochure/application
packet.  Applications are accepted starting November 1, 1994 for the
1995-96 program year.  An Equal Opportunity Employer.

For more information on the Civic Education Project and its activities,
please contact:

Civic Education Project
P.O. Box 205445 Yale Station
New Haven, CT  06520
Tel: (203) 781-0263
Fax: (203) 781-0265
E-mail: 

> ----------------------------------------------------------------

--Greg
+ - Re: Judaism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Attila Gabor:

>we would not be Hungarians. After all, it takes 2 Hungarians to come up
>with 3 opinion.

I have heard this a few times among the New Brunswick, NJ crowd, but I thought
it must be a local joke.  Is this a well know saying amaong Hungarians?

Paul
+ - Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul writes:

> >> the Church has been consistant through the years, and that is it's purpose
,
> >> to provide a universal, eternal reference for the behavior of people.
> >Well, 1/2 right, which is good enough for me  :-)
>
> Which 1/2?

Which Church?

--Greg

PS
50% is near ideal for this forum
+ - the Church under Kadar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc Nasdor wrote:
>Norb wrote:
>> How is the state or the "corporate sector" cozy with "the
>>church?"

>How many times have politicians had to kowtow to the interests of
>"official" organized religions in order to be taken seriously by
>the news media (who are the ultimate deciders of "qualified"
>candidates)?

     To be taken seriously by the media, never.  To gain votes,
quite often.

>Second example: all U.S. presidents, with the exception of
>Kennedy, have been White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. If religious
>affiliation is so irrelevant, then please explain this phenomenon.

     Over 60% of the American population is Protestant, White
Anglo-Saxon Protestants have historically been at the helm of the
economy and government of the US (as far as modern American history
is concerned, they are the indigenous population), the large
Catholic population is relatively poor and new, and non-Christians
don't compromise a large segment of America's population.

>Following this, how are "serious" candidates selected, what
>financial interests back them up? I'll answer the question: the
>large donations come from the corporate sector and wealthy
>individuals...

     True.

>...who are dominated overwhelmingly by (see above ethnic
>reference).

     I responded to this above ("historically...").

>Third, on the subject of religion, the very fact that only large
>denominations are afforded respect speaks volumes about the
>so-called "tolerance" of the majority. Zen Buddhists and Yoga
>Meditation societies are laughed off...

     These groups have gained legitimacy and respect over the years
as they gained followers outside of the pot smoking, 60s hippie
crowd...  Apparently, we Bible Belt Texans are more tolerant than you Greenwich
Village New Yorkers.  Such groups are very popular down here with many stressed
out businessmen (and women).

>...but just try mocking the Mormon church, a bona fide
>19th-century UFO cult if there ever was one...

     ...while the Mormon Church is being ridiculed at a faster and
faster pace.  Check out the multitude of expose books written on
them over the past twenty or so years.  Just a couple days ago I
hit upon an essay detailing their "secret" temple rites' (which
were purportedly given to Joseph Smith by God) descent from Masonic
practices.

>> When was the last time you saw someone declaring his
>> heterosexuality on TV, or his religious affiliation for that
>> matter?

>Pat Robertson declares his heterosexuality and his religious
>affiliation with numbing regularity.

     Quite honestly, I would never have guessed that a person with
your political views watches the 700 Club at all, much less
actually takes it to be representative of the nation's media.  When
you said "media," I assumed you meant ABC, NBC, etc.  If the 700
Club is what you consider when talking about how the media is cozy
with the "church," then there really isn't too much reason to
continue this discussion.

>But seriously, the only time someone would feel inclined
>to declare one's hetero orientation, would be if heteros were
>being persecuted...

     Do you not feel that UN resolutions being sponsored by NAMBLA
are beginnings of such persecution?

>...the way gays are in the US, particularly in the Bible Belt, but
>anti-gay violence is rising at an alarming rate, even here in New
>York.

     Don't tell me how things are in the Bible Belt.  I have lived
here for a decade, and nobody is being persecuted.  Hmm...maybe
there is persecution down here.  The White, Anglo-Saxon residents
of Dallas County are getting a mouthful of harrassement from County
Commissioner John Wiley Price, who happens to be Black and openly
racist.  He has been arrested and cited on numerous occasions for
destroying private property and beating up people who get too close
to his unceasing protests.
     As far as "gays" are concerned in the Bible Belt, their most
prominent action to date was their burning of George Bush in effigy
during the 1992 GOP convention in Houston....

>If you don't see the pervasive influence of the clergy, you should
>open your eyes people who have been denied work, have lost their
>jobs, or have suffered orchestrated social ostracism because of
>their beliefs.

     My eyes are not the ones which need opening.

>I know that conservatives the world over love to mock the
>obsessive promotion of social tolerance by liberals...

     I don't mock anything, but your pseudo-liberalism doesn't
escape me.  Throughout this thread you try to pass off as fact what
is either based on false information, or just plain stereotyping.
Now that is _VERY_ unliberal of you...

>...but the present-day genocides in Bosnia...

     FYI, that conflict has much more to do with the attempt of a
dying clique to maintain power (an attempt which is not as
successful as far as numbers of believers are concerned) than with
ethnic hatreds passed down through a millennium (which amounts to
nothing but pure, 100% Bull!).  Your addition of this into our
thread just shows your gullibility of what the media says.  Now I'm
not as surprised as I was before...

>...Rwanda...

     You compare a nation not even on the brink of entering the
20th century in many political/economic areas, to a leading
industrial giant?  Marc, I don't mean to insult you, but I think
you ought to concentrate your time in the natural sciences, rather
than in the social sciences.

>...makes this cause at least as serious as welfare reform, no?

     Cause?  I don't know what you're talking about.  We were
discussing church/state relations (albeit, as I said in my first
post, the main topic was the Church under Kadar; it seems that the
"religious freedom under Kadar" theory has been debunked).

     THE END

     Norb

     P. S.  As obvious, I'm through with this thread.  But to start
another one, how do you think the "Gay Games" (which did not go by
unnoticed by the news media) contributed to the equality of
homosexuals (going on the assumption that there isn't equality now,
of course)?  Do the Olympic Games not allow homosexuals?
+ - British Monarchy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant wrote:
 > By the way, when was the last chance to vote against
 > the monarchy?

    Francoise Jaudel and Laure Boulay in _There are Still Kings_ say that
"according to all the polls, 95 percent of the population believe that the
monarchy is a necessary institution, the only one that allows for...a
specifically English way of life."  The book was published in 1981 (in French),
while the English version I cite from was published in 1984.  I know there was
a poll done relatively recently (I'd say the past two years) of which I heard
on ABC.  It's results were similar, albeit most Brits favored a toned down,
Scandinavian type monarchy.

 > ...(thinking about it, even some of the tabloids are feeling the
 > Brits' true notions now and are very disrespectful indeed.)

    True notions indeed!  Ms. Durant, you have some nerve in going about
equating your views with that of about 50 million other people, especially
when obviously a great majority of that 50 million don't agree with you! And
BTW, since when did tabloids become a source for anything but trash and
sensational journalism?

    Norb
+ - Army and Church (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai said:
 > ...speaking strictly for myself...

    Go ahead, that's your prerogative.

 > ...and the majority of Hungarians who happen to be atheists or just
 > don't take the established churces to be appropriate representatives
 > of their religious sensibilities...

    You have no basis for assuming that a majority of Hungarians are either
atheists or "don't take the established churches to be appropriate
representatives of their religious sensibilities," but even if you do, you
cannot speak for them.  You seem to preach a strange sort of liberalism...

    Norb
+ - I am #1 (Re: access in Hungary) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just to avoid any confusion: the piece quoted below came
from Zoli the 2nd, not me ;-(.

  -- Zoli 

On Wed, 24 Aug 1994 19:32:39 -0700, Zoli wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Hal Gangnath wrote:
>
>> Where can I get information on sztaki.hu?  I would like to
>> get access to the Internet from Budapest.  What type of
>> access is available, and how much does it cost?
>>
>
>Try Odin Kft in Budapest.  They are a commercial Internet Access Provider
>just like say netcom here.
>
>It provides full internet access with dial in options, 14,400 bps
>modems.  Full access costs 3200 Fts for a month.  For this you get 1 hour
>/day.  Any additional hours are 100 Fts per hour.  Mail/news accounts are
>900 Fts per month.
>
>Their internet access is: 
>
>Good luck
>
>Zoli
Zoli  "Do not believe every headers you see"  
+ - Re: access in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hal Gangnath > wrote:

  > Where can I get information on sztaki.hu?  I would like to get access to
  > the Internet from Budapest.  What type of access is available, and how
  > much does it cost?

Sztaki offers dial up as well as full SLIP accounts for Ft 5,000 per month
plus Ft 500 per hour. For more information you should contact Kriszta Hollo
>. Do me a favor and mention that I refered you.

=steve=

-----------------------
Steven Carlson
Critical Mass Media Inc.
Kiraly utca 15 II/3
1075 Budapest, Hungary
Tel:+361-121-3400

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