Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 841
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-08
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Triangle Hungarians (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: poverty (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: War Criminals (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: War Criminals (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: HAL: How to help the csangos? (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: poverty (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
16 The Value of the Internet Discussion (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Taxonomy (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: War Criminals (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  170 sor     (cikkei)
24 Hungarian Revolution (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  105 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: War Criminals (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
27 Poverty in Hungary (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
28 What is demagoguery? (mind)  86 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: poverty (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: The Value of the Internet Discussion (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
33 Kapcsolat felvetel (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: War Criminals (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Poverty in Hungary (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: War Criminals (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: War Criminals (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Magyar versek az Interneten (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Triangle Hungarians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is for any Magyars or Magyarphiles in the Raleigh-Durham, North
Carolina area:

The Hungarian American Club of the Triangle Meeting
Sunday, November 10
5 p.m.
Pirate's Cove Club House, Cary
Program: Living healthy -- vitamins and exercises by Drs. Istvan Takacs
and George Nemecz
Please bring your favorite covered dish

E-mail me if you need directions.
Sam Stowe

"Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
-- Bob Dole's last words
+ - Re: poverty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [United Kingdom]
>
> So, the next question is - what causes poverty?
> Hungary is not unique in having that problem, and I
> agree with  you on the topic.
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> At 01:08 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:
> >My belief is that the
> >root cause of most social ills is poverty. I would be interested to know
> >the background of the people involved in the crimes you quoted above. I
> >would guess that most of them came from disadvantaged families.
>
> You're probably right.  And yes, I'd agree that poverty is the root cause
> of most social ills.
I find the view that E1va, Barna, and Joe are agreeing on rather naive.
Surely, being poor is the "dog bites man" case that requires no special
explanation, and being rich is the "man bites dog" case that causes a
sensation. Animals are poor. They live lives that are short and brutish.
So did the vast majority of humankind until the 20th century.

Pockets of lessened poverty, even to the minimal extent of having one's basic
needs (food, clothing, shelter) taken care of, have started to emerge on a
societal scale only after the industrial revolution, and the phenomenon of
having a large segment of the population that could be called well to do is
quite new, and still restricted to the major industrial nations. Meanwhile,
billions of people still live in dire poverty.

At one point Henry Ford started to pay his workers above the going rate, an
idea that seemed extremely strange at the time, but one that caught on
eventually. From that point onwards it became possible to get rich without
exploiting your fellow man, and Balzac's aphorism that at the foundation of
every large fortune there is a major crime ceased to be true. Bill Gates
didn't get to be the richest man in America by exploiting his workers, in
fact there are thousands of employees who became millionaires at Microsoft.
One might of course argue that DOS was a major crime...

Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but perhaps
switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the weather.
Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its problems
are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are caused
by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Probably there are a few poverty stricken 3rd world
countries whose 90%+ export comes from multinationals.
It doesn't mean less poverty, and usually means free
roam over the people and the environment, the more
secure the dictatorship, the better... Just look at
Wales, UK...  Even if official figures show growth
and better employment figures, that is no way an indicator
of rising living standards for the poor, or even the
"bottom 60%".  Look at the US, waving these figures
means nothing, the new jobs are insecure and low income,
poverty is getting worse, the (top)rich is getting richer.

Nationalistic crap? Yes, if some people think, that
multinationals can be replaced with "pure" hungarian
capitalists, with pure hearts, who will save the nation
and feed the poor... There are some demagogues who says
that and some unfortunates, who believe that.



>
>         Put it that way. Seventy-five percent of Hungary's export comes from
> the multinationals. This is what makes Hungary better off than it would be
> otherwise. Thanks to foreign investments--highest in the region--Hungary has
> a good chance of recovering from the slump. So, please, don't bring up all
> that nationalistic crap about selling out and all that. Foreign companies
> are doing a lot of good in Hungary.
>
>         Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 03:34 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
><snip>
>>        Sounds nice but it isn't true in today's world. (It wasn't true even
>>then but more about that later.) The right to vote is in no way connected to
>>taxation. Everyone who reaches eighteen--in most countries--are eligible to
>>vote without any reference whatsoever to taxes. In fact, many, many
>>eighteen-year olds don't pay taxes: they are still in school. Unemployed
>>people don't pay taxes and yet they are eligible to vote. Retired people,
>>living only a social security, don't pay taxes, yet they can vote.
>>Housewives who don't have jobs and thus don't pay taxes can vote.
>
>Wow!  Strike me dead!  It sounds soooo utopian.  Is it any wonder Eva Balogh
>likes the United States?  We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
>the GST.  We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.  The
>unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxes
>(one way or an other).  I wannabe an American!
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Ok Joe, you made your point.  US citizens also pay sales taxes and property
taxes, where and when applicable.   But what does that have to do with
voting rights?  Is anyone in Canada denied access to the voting booths
because they are behind paying their property taxes?  Or because they have
not bought gasoline, tobacco or alcohol in the last 30 days?

Taxes, for the most part, are not tied to citizenship, while voting is.  As
a US citizen (or as a Hungarian citizen) visiting Canada (as I did last
summer) I have to pay GST when I buy gas, stay in a hotel, etc.  Having paid
these Canadian taxes, however, does not assure me right to vote there.

Charlie Vamossy
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> There are people who live below the poverty line because they are sick,
> there are others in this situation because of some temporary set back in
> their own life or in the society. For example, thousands of immigrants come
> to Canada every year, and many of them end up on the welfare role for a
> period of time, but most of them escape after a few years. Or a lot of
> fishermen ended up on the dole, because the cod disappeared from the sea.
> And there are those who choose to be poor, they prefer to live a simple
> life on maigre income or social assistance. So it is very difficult to
> determine how many people are in that hopeless condition where they become
> alienated, bitter, and destructive.
>

The Hungarian you mention below, won't be happy with your descrip-
tion, you subscribe the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
The idea, that people actually "choose" to be poor is ridiculous,
and is made by people who isolated from poor people.
Getting the only available, low pay and usually dehumanisisng
job in 99%+ of the cases cannot lift you out of poverty.

People probably do more creative work if they try to lead
a healthy life and study instead - usually the benefits
are not adequate for that. If  parents didn't get
anywhere in their lifetime, there will be no ambition
and self respect to to pass on. So will you condemn
such a family as the "undeserving"?

There is very little unskilled physical work necessary
to manufacture all the necessities of the modern society.
Industrial/agricultural employees number around 20% of
all employees now.  So without education for work and
for enjoyment/culture, there will be no end to poverty
anywhere. Capitalism is not able to supply the
material conditions for this, even if it wanted to.


> I also think that there is a difference between the way the Americans and
> Hungarians (Europeans?) treat the poor. The rich here seem to treat the
> poor with more respect. I recall a discussion with an old Hungarian
> immigrant in '57. He was as poor as the church mouse, but told me very
> proudly: I don't have to kiss the hand of anybody here.
>

I think in America the poor is treated with more contempt
and even hatred, than in Europe. In Europe (minus UK)
 a larger percent of
the profits (in principle) is put into welfare and
education - but it is still far from enough, and in
the last decade, things are getting worse.

>
> I read some convincing arguments, that the Western monetary system is about
> to collapse, because the national debt can not be contained. [i.e. J. S.
> Jaikaram: Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing, 1992]. These theories were
> developed, when the inflation was high in America. But now the inflation is
> under control, the national debt is going down, the stock market is
> booming, the imminent death of capitalism is less threatening.
>

Inflation figures, national debt, stock market figures don't
change the poverty figures, or even the tendency of more and more
people getting  into the "poor" pool.   Capitalism is not able
to deliver the goods, only the figures...


> May be with persistent lobbying it is possible to achieve, that poverty would
> not be tolerated in a civilized society, regardless of the economic system.
>

Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.



+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

> I think this is right, however I disagree with
>G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals
>in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is
>no difference between them criminals and judges.

How about sentencing them to serve in godawful places like Rwanda and
Kurdistan with international relief agencies if they're found guilty? It
might do much to remind them of the cost of inhumanity and actually induce
a sense of guilt and shame in them for what they did as younger men.
Sam Stowe

"What do a tornado and a
North Carolina divorce have
in common? Either way, someone's
gonna lose a mobile home."
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Denes BOGSANYI"
> writes:

>I would be very interested to find out more details concerning Ladislaus
>Csiszik-Csatary and his connection with the Royal Hungarian Police. What
>rank and what position did he hold in the critical years? It is important
>that these men not be hounded just because they were sent to carry out an
>unpleasant job under threat of dire consequences if they did not. Based
on
>his age he would probably have been a very junior rank and with very
little
>power to influence the course of events.
>
>

Point well taken. Csiszik-Csatary, however, would have been 30 years old
in 1944. That's not very young for a military or national police officer,
particularly during the latter part of a war that has already absorbed a
large portion of the nation's men for service in the armed forces outside
the country's border. He may have held a fairly high rank under wartime
conditions. We do need to know more details of what he is accused of doing
before we either convict him, acquit him or forget him and go back to
quarreling over the merits of "forradalom" versus "szabadsagharc."
Sam Stowe

"What do a tornado and a
North Carolina divorce have
in common? Either way, someone's
gonna lose a mobile home."
+ - Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Eva S.
Balogh" > writes:

>Agnes had some difficulty sending the list the following. I am sending it
on
>to the list on her behalf:
>
>Yesterday I saw Elmer Gantry again on Bravo - our commercial-free movie
>TV.  I saw it first when it came out, in 1960.  I liked it very much
>then, although I didn't understand half of it.  I saw it with Spanish
>subtitles and neither my Spanish nor my English was up to understanding
>the nuances of the language.  I was also very unfamiliar with
>North American society.
>
>Yesterday, after 36 years, I realized the story is timeless.  The Elmer
>Gantrys are still with us.  And the reason I am posting this here is that
>they were intruding this list too - I am just sharing my feelings with
>you guys and girls.
>
>Agnes

You really ought to read Sinclair Lewis's book "Elmer Gantry," Agnes. (The
movie is based on it.) He didn't win the Nobel Prize for Literature for
nothing.
Sam Stowe

"What do a tornado and a
North Carolina divorce have
in common? Either way, someone's
gonna lose a mobile home."
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
<SNIPPETY>
> Well, if I cared *that* much about voting, I'd rearrange my plans.  Besides,
> in many jurisdictions there's advance voting and voting by proxy.
>
> Joe Szalai
++++ The issue is that you can vote IF you vote in advance or via proxy.
In HU however, if you are NOT physically there then no cigar!
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
<SNIP...>
> Wow!  Strike me dead!  It sounds soooo utopian.  Is it any wonder Eva Balogh
> likes the United States?  We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
> the GST.  We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.  The
> unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxes
> (one way or an other).  I wannabe an American!
>
> Joe Szalai
>
++++++ Joe...Perhaps you can ask the Ontario Gov't to apply for Statehood?
Eh?
+ - Re: HAL: How to help the csangos? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Bela Liptak:
Thank you for the information on the Csangos conditions and suggestions 
on how to help. If I may, I would like to point out a few items to 
further assist:

The information for Duna - TV
should contain their telephone number: 
+36+1+156-0122
and their E-mail address (for those not wishing to fax):


Moreover, the raw data:
Istok Gyorgy
Com: Cleja  Code: 5529
Jud: Bacau
Romania

Help for the Gyimes csangos can be sent to:

Deaky Andras, Director
Scoala Generala Ghimes
5494 Ghimes-Faget
Jud. Bacau
Romania
(Telephone in the school: 14, at home: 21)

+++The Telephone number is really missing:

One requires 
international access (011  in the USA)
country code: 40
Area code (Bacu) 31
The actual central office number ???
Telephone number (I guess that is the 14 [at school] and 21 [at home]

Perhaps you can obtain the REAL telephone number?

Thank you and regards,
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:49 PM 11/7/96 +0000, Eva Durant wrote:

>Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
>It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
>good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
>What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
>all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
>than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
>goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
>sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
>but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
>the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.
>
>

Although I don't agree with your premise that capitalism, or better called,
free market economy needs to be replaced with another system, still, I would
be interested in learning what would you replace it with and how would you
go about doing it?

Charlie Vamossy
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>>Has it ever crossed your mind that, in the past years, Hungarian
>>historical literature was extremely biased from a nationalistic
>>viewpoint, exactly as it was its Romanian counterpart?

>Did you not notice my comment about *the influence of my forebears*?

Yes. And since the forebears' influence acts upon everybody, me
included, I was curious to know if you ever suspected nationalistic
bias in their teachings. What's  wrong with that?

>Getting shirty and replying with tit for tat point scoring is not
>terribly productive!

Why do I get the feeling that you are not practicing what you are
actually preaching?

>...but you don't say anything about ancient surviving dialects, etc.

And there is a very good reason for that: the language spoken in
present-day Romania and Moldova is,  and probably always was,
characterized by a surprisingly low linguistic differentiation; it has
no dialects.

> I'm suggesting that
>the Rumini language was born from and nutured by the long Byzantine
>influence in the area (as opposed to earlier Dacian-Roman claims).

Starting with the 6th century, Greek was the predominant language of
the Byzantine Empire. Romanian language shares common 8th century
Latin innovations with some northern and southern Italian dialects.
Therefore, while it is possible that Romanians' ancestors were, prior
to the Slavic invasions, among the so-called Rhomaioi (the East Roman
subjects), it is hard to believe that post-6th century Byzantium
influence over the Romanian cradle, wherever that cradle located, was
linguistically significant.

>>>It is interesting that long periods of Russian, Lithuanian, Turkish
>>>Ottoman and Hungarian control of territories now known as Romania did
>>>not snuff out the usage and development of that Latin offshoot.
>
>>It most certainly did. Plenty of post-10th century East Slavic and
>>Magyar loan-words are present in Romanian.
>
>Huh? So what's wrong with loan words?

Nothing, I did not say that something is good or  wrong. However, mea
culpa, I read your "to snuff out" more like "to affect," instead of
"to extinguish."

>AFAIK Moldavia and Wallachia gained semi-independence
>in 1829, united in 1859 (as Romania),

Actually, Moldavia and Wallachia united as "United Principalities,"
not Romania.

> So it looks like Romanian became *official* to English speakers in 1859.

I think you mean "Romania," the country's name, not the ethnicon
Romanian.

>This is uninformed speculation since I have yet to see any English period
>books that refer to the area. Perhaps you've seen such period books?

Wasn't this about how Romanians always called themselves? I doubt 18th
century English books are of any relevance as much time as there are
plenty of earlier writings which attested they used the ethnicon
Romanian.

>>You have mentioned several times Ceausescu-era literature. I thought
>>you read in that literature the claim  that the Saxons called
>>themselves Romanians.
>
>Not really, but didn't Ceaucescu's Romanian nation-state insist on
>calling all these people Romanian with a stealthy policy to diminish
>and eventually destroy *non-Romanian* cultures and languages

What that has to do with how the Saxons called themselves? There was a
big difference between the officially preached policy and the one
actually practiced; published literature didn't reflect the  practiced
policy. Saxons were considered members of the German "national
minority," but also Romanian citizens, and the preservation of their
national-cultural identity was guaranteed by the Romanian state.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:12:09 +0000  Eva Durant wrote:

> The Hungarian you mention below, won't be happy with your descrip-
> tion, you subscribe the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
> The idea, that people actually "choose" to be poor is ridiculous,
> and is made by people who isolated from poor people.

In Canada the poverty line for rural areas is around $17,000. I know at
least one eccentric person who lives a meaningful, happy life with
less income than this. He may have some extra income, what the taxman does
not know, but in the statistics he is poor, in real life he is not. In
rural communities bartering is a common practic, which is not illegal, and
its benefit does not shows up in the income statements.

> I think in America the poor is treated with more contempt
> and even hatred, than in Europe. In Europe (minus UK)
> a larger percent of
> the profits (in principle) is put into welfare and
> education - but it is still far from enough, and in
> the last decade, things are getting worse.

I would like to see some evidence of this.

> Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
> It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
> good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
> What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
> all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
> than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
> goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
> sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
> but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
> the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.

I would love to see a better system. I consider it obscene that CEO's,
baseball and movie stars pocket millions dollars, while millions of people
can not feed their kids. Unfortunately I don't know anybody who can propose
and implement a viable alternative. So until we find the Messiah who can
change the system, I think we should do what we can to embarrass our
politicians to do what they can to reduce poverty.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: poverty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On  7 Nov 1996 01:51:14 -0600  Andras Kornai wrote:

> Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
> blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
> if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but perhaps
> switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the weather.
> Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its problems
> are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are caused
> by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.

I don't exactly understand what he is trying to say here, but if he
implies that reduced poverty will not improve society he is dead wrong.
Poverty and social conditions can be improved and the result immediately
observable.  Social conditions are not uncontrollable like the weather.

I read a sociological study about the conditions in the poorest part of
Hungary the "Nyirseg" by Antal Ve1gh [Erdo3ha1ton, Nyi1ren, 1972], in
this he  was contrasting two communities [Vaja and Pene1szlak]. He shows
that an imaginative town council can do a lot to improve local conditions.
In Vaja the population was better educated, happier, even though the basic
economic constraint applied to both communities.

I don't think we need to accept condition as they are. Where would the
world be if we would all accept thing as they are? Even DOS will not
rule forever. Long live Unix!

Barna Bozoki
+ - The Value of the Internet Discussion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:59:51 -0500 Joe Szalai wrote in response to my
comment about my previous attempts to start a discussion about poverty:

> What do you mean by "failed"?  I don't recall your posts, but do you mean
> that you couldn't convince people of your point of view?  In a discussion no
> one fails except, perhaps, those who don't express themselves.

I was referring to my post on the Hungarian language FORUM quoting a well
known ex-communist writer's writing about poverty. I was disappointed that
the discussion turned into a bashing of the writers character, rather than
a discussion of the message.

But aside from this specific case, I don't agree that there can be no
failure in a discussion. If one writes with a purpose and the desired
result is not achieved the writing is a failure.

Earlier this year I wrote about the World Federation of Hungarians. My
purpose was to provide input to the reorganization of the Canadian Council
of this organization. No one responded. So I failed to convince the
readers, that it is our interest to care about this organization.

Last year I tried to solicit help to put Hungarian books on a CD and on the
Internet. A few people indicated that they would help, but very few did.

I very much enjoy our discussion about poverty, but I have no
illusions that we are helping a cause.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Taxonomy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:46 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Aniko wrote:

>What does leave me in awe - is the amazing interest displayed by the younger
>generation today within Hungary regarding the 56 issue.  There are countless
>questions and even opinions.  It became clear to me that they too are
>confused and are looking for a consensus of the definition

        I'm very glad to hear that. Perhaps things are changing in this
respect and the young people will understand what a momentous event it was
in world history: the first armed uprising of longer duration against a
totalitarian regime.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Wow!  Strike me dead!  It sounds soooo utopian.  Is it any wonder Eva Balogh
>likes the United States?  We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
>the GST.  We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.  The
>unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxes
>(one way or an other).  I wannabe an American!

        It still doesn't change the basic fact: even if you don't drive,
don't smoke, don't drink, you can still vote. That's the bottom line.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:22 PM 11/6/96 -0800, Gabor Farkas wrote:

>In the book Cry Hungary (that was mentioned recently on this list) there is
>a series of photographs, showing the summary execution of a group of
>AVO-members by freedom fighters. Those executed were  apparently unarmed,
>they  look very young, probably conscripts. Does anybody know what happened
>there, how frequent was this kind of "justice" and what happened to those
>who acted as judges and executioners?

        Unfortunately those pictures--a whole series of them in every phase
of the summary executions--were splashed all over every magazine and
publication in those days and reappeared since in every commemorative
volume. It was the *only* serious atrocity connected with the revolution and
even that only after the AVO killed hundreds in front of the parliament,
mostly women, unarmed who went there to ask the authorities to stop the
fighting. There were no journalists to take pictures there, but if they had
been, I am sure, we would have had lurid pictures of this particular
incident as well. The attack on the communist party headquarters was a
protracted one and obviously the few foreign journalists on hand had time to
gather there to record the events. Thus, we have hundreds of photographs of
this particular atrocity but none of the others.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Elmer Gantry from Agnes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

One of the best things about the movie of "Elmer Gantry" was Shirley Jones
playing a prostitute.  That might not seem like a big deal now, but she
was the all-American girl when she was discovered in the mid-50s and put
in films like "Carousel" and "Oklahoma."  Then, just five years later, she
played a prostitute, which took a lot of courage.  I believe she even won
an Oscar for it.  There's a lesson for all of us: break out of society's
image of you, and you too might win an Oscar--or then again, you might
lose all your teeth, but life is meant to be lived.

Burian
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:17 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I may be wrong here but wasn't it Eva Balogh who was chortling about Andras
>Kornai, and other young Hungarians, learning the truth about communism from
>their dads.  It seems that the situation was less romantic when dad talked
>about things that Eva Balogh didn't agree with.

        Eva Balogh never said anything that stupid, dear Joe. Andras Kornai
knows Hungarian history quite well and he didn't learn it from his dad.

><snip>
>>        Put it that way. Seventy-five percent of Hungary's export comes from
>>the multinationals. This is what makes Hungary better off than it would be
>>otherwise. Thanks to foreign investments--highest in the region--Hungary has
>>a good chance of recovering from the slump. So, please, don't bring up all
>>that nationalistic crap about selling out and all that. Foreign companies
>>are doing a lot of good in Hungary.
>
>I may be wrong again but I think that Eva Balogh left something out of her
>last sentance.  I think she meant to say, "Foreign companies are doing a lot
>of good, lining their own pockets, in Hungary."  I mean, if they weren't
>lining their own pockets they'd leave, no?  I don't think there's such a
>thing as "mercy capitalism".

        God, you are hopeless. Sure, the multinationals didn't go to Hungary
to do charity work or lose money. Sure, they want to make money and
eventually they will even make profit. (For a number of years they will not
because of the heavy investments needed originally to modernize or establish
plants.) But, while they are making profit for themselves they are also
paying taxes, they are employing thousands of workers whom they pay quite
well, and bring hard currency into the country.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>You know, that's such an easy sentence to write, and yes, I can hear Eva
>Balogh thinking that I'm having another one of my episodic Rapid Eye
>Movement Socialist Dreams.  But so what!  Unfortunately, Hungarians have no
>choice but to put their hopes into yet another venture.  If the free market
>system doesn't pan out, for the simultaneous (yes, simultaneous!) benefit of
>all, then what?  Another venture?

        Quite right, Joe. "Hungarians have no choice but to put their hopes
into yet another venture." If it doesn't pan out it is not because it is
unworkable but because the joint effort of left and right will torpedo it.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>The Hungarian you mention below, won't be happy with your descrip-
>tion, you subscribe the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
>The idea, that people actually "choose" to be poor is ridiculous,
>and is made by people who isolated from poor people.

People make poor choices about education, child birth, criminal activity,
etc. which heavily influence their economic outcomes in life. Denying this
fact is a tenet of dogmatic faith with those itching, for whatever
ideological reasons, to embrace poor people as a class or group and
equally unwilling to grant them individual humanity. I've seen poor people
rise to the challenge of their poverty with grace, dignity, humor and
courage. I've also seen others allow it to harden and embitter them. There
is no stereotypical reaction to poverty, perhaps beyond some vague common
longing for better material circumstances.

>Getting the only available, low pay and usually dehumanisisng
>job in 99%+ of the cases cannot lift you out of poverty.
>
>People probably do more creative work if they try to lead
>a healthy life and study instead - usually the benefits
>are not adequate for that. If  parents didn't get
>anywhere in their lifetime, there will be no ambition
>and self respect to to pass on. So will you condemn
>such a family as the "undeserving"?

One of the banes of our public life are middle- and upper-income parents
who don't lift a finger to imbue their children with ambition,
self-respect and a sense of moral obligation. These problems cut across
class boundaries.

>
>There is very little unskilled physical work necessary
>to manufacture all the necessities of the modern society.
>Industrial/agricultural employees number around 20% of
>all employees now.  So without education for work and
>for enjoyment/culture, there will be no end to poverty
>anywhere. Capitalism is not able to supply the
>material conditions for this, even if it wanted to.

Which makes its triumphalist claims of economic prosperity and free-market
rationalism as specious and downright dishonest as those of
Marxism-Leninism. Which means its inevitable failures will lead capitalist
societies back to the hard-won and now-forgotten truth that too much of
anything isn't good for you. Which doesn't mean your lot will ever get a
shot at running things again.
>
>
>> I also think that there is a difference between the way the Americans
and
>> Hungarians (Europeans?) treat the poor. The rich here seem to treat the
>> poor with more respect. I recall a discussion with an old Hungarian
>> immigrant in '57. He was as poor as the church mouse, but told me very
>> proudly: I don't have to kiss the hand of anybody here.

You have proven in the past that your knowledge of American society,
culture and history is minimal in the extreme. The plain truth is that you
don't have the first idea how Americans treat the poor.

>>
>
>I think in America the poor is treated with more contempt
>and even hatred, than in Europe. In Europe (minus UK)
> a larger percent of
>the profits (in principle) is put into welfare and
>education - but it is still far from enough, and in
>the last decade, things are getting worse.

Yadda, yadda, yadda. What most Americans see as "the poor" is a very
visible black underclass. The many millions of other Americans -- white,
black, Hispanic, etc. -- whose income levels qualify them as poor are an
invisible working class whose interests are rarely represented in
Washington or their state capitals. These people are, in the main, very
religious, very hard-working, very decent people. They fall into three
distinct categories -- single mothers, children and the elderly. None of
the public contempt you speak of, most of it generated by Republican
politicians, has been aimed at either children or the elderly. Single
mothers -- particularly single mothers who are black and living in an
urban ghetto -- are the big target of these hate-mongers, who like to
paint them as the last word in irresponsibility abetted by government
largess. There's enough truth in the claim to obscure a much larger truth
that isn't as comforting to Republican bigots -- the overwhelming majority
of single mothers are white, divorced and impoverished by this change in
marital status. All of this goes to show that the question of poverty in
the U.S. is substantially more complex than you're ever likely to admit or
even understand.
>
>>
>> I read some convincing arguments, that the Western monetary system is
about
>> to collapse, because the national debt can not be contained. [i.e. J.
S.
>> Jaikaram: Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing, 1992]. These theories were
>> developed, when the inflation was high in America. But now the
inflation is
>> under control, the national debt is going down, the stock market is
>> booming, the imminent death of capitalism is less threatening.

With all due apologies for those of our regular cast of characters who are
professional economists and those who think they are,  they don't call it
the dismal science for nothing. And even if economists were able to more
accurately predict what was going to happen to the economy, I doubt it
would be of any benefit to you because your strong ideological commitments
make it almost impossible for you to accept any data or analysis of data
which don't conform to your expectations.

>>
>
>Inflation figures, national debt, stock market figures don't
>change the poverty figures, or even the tendency of more and more
>people getting  into the "poor" pool.   Capitalism is not able
>to deliver the goods, only the figures...

Capitalism is able to deliver the goods aplenty. That the radical version
of it unrestrained by government regulation and occasional, judicious
intervention by government can do so in a socially rational and morally
just manner is the real question. Marxism-Leninism is not the answer.

>
>
>> May be with persistent lobbying it is possible to achieve, that poverty
>would
>> not be tolerated in a civilized society, regardless of the economic
system.

Poverty in any truly democratic system will be unhappily and reluctantly
accepted because experience has demonstrated that eradicating it
completely invariably leads to unacceptable levels of totalitarian
government control which extend far beyond the narrow economic goal of
putting poor folks to work. The trick is to minimize poverty as much as
possible without infringing on the rights of others to an unacceptable
degree. The incremental and difficult nature of effecting such a delicate
balance and maintaining it is not for the faint of heart or those whose
political philosophy is rooted in a sense of grievance and vengeance.
>>
>
>Capitalism can only function, if reasonable profits are made.
>It seems, that these profits are now not sufficient, however
>good meaning the individual share-owners etc, to do the job.
>What do you mean? Higher taxes on companies? As it is they take
>all the corporate welfare they can get (more in volume I believe,
>than social welfare) to stay efloat to produce the socially useless
>goods, such as arms...  Are you just a bit naive...?
>sorry, a change of the system is not a comfortable thought,
>but should be entertained somewhat seriously  - if you want
>the change to be democratically controlled and peaceful.

Only someone doggedly determined not to learn the lessons of the 20th
Century would argue that capitalism has not markedly improved the lives of
the poor in those countries which have checked its most rapacious and
socially unjust excesses through careful governmental intervention and
regulation. Being poor in London's East End in 1996 may not be easy or
enjoyable. It does not, however, inflict the kind of frightening physical
misery which Dickens, Mayhew and others found in their investigations in
the last century. It doesn't inflict the kind of physical misery and
oppression which unrestrained capitalism inflicts on many Third World
countries. It doesn't inflict the kind of moral hypocrisy, intellectual
dishonesty, political oppression and shabby living conditions which
Communism inflicted on millions of Europeans.
Sam Stowe
>
>




"Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
-- Bob Dole's last words
+ - Hungarian Revolution (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Christus Rex Information Service
 celebrates the fortieth anniversary of the
 Hungarian Revolution
 23 October - 4 November 1956

The epic struggle for freedom of the Hungarian nation,
inspired by the heroic demonstrations of the Polish students earlier
that
year, wasthe turning point in the Eastern European efforts to
overthrow the Communist governments that had been imposed on them by the
Soviet
army.
I would like to offer two personal testimonies about this momentuous
event:

- Shortly after being transferred to the infamous political prison
Jilava,
near Bucharest, Romania, in December 1959, I met a Romanian
general who had spent 14 years as a prisoner of war in Russia and was
then transferred to the Romanian prison. Prior to his transfer in
1958, he spent some time at Lubyanka (the KGB headquarters in Moscow),
sharing a cell with two Hungarian teenagers who had been arrested in
1956
at the age of 16, sentenced to death and then kept in prison until they
turned 18.
One morning in July 1958 they were taken out and executed. "I shall
never forget,
said the old general (he died in Jilava a few years later), the two
Hungarian boys who were marching to their death blindfolded. They
were shouting: "Freedom! Independence! Death to Communism!" Hundreds of
Hungarian teenagers were executed in 1958-1959.

- Twenty years ago I met a former Soviet officer who had defected,
together with
2000 other Soviet military during the Hungarian Revolution and had
sought
asylum in Austria. They were separated from the Hungarian
refugees in December 1956 and were sent to a special camp run by U.S.
personnel. On January 13, 1957, they were all forced to
board a train that was supposed to take them to West Germany. The train
headed
towards Bratislava (Slovakia) instead. My friend and a few others
managed to jump off the train, when it slowed down to cross the bridge
over the Danube river.
The KGB troops were waiting on the other side of the bridge. All people
on that
train were tortured and executed by the KGB in 1957.

Michael Olteanu


<http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/index.html>;
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva B - At 01:46 PM 07/11/96 -0500, you wrote in answer to Joe Sz:

Joe...
>>I may be wrong again but I think that Eva Balogh left something out of her
>>last sentance.  I think she meant to say, "Foreign companies are doing a lot
>>of good, lining their own pockets, in Hungary."  I mean, if they weren't
>>lining their own pockets they'd leave, no?  I don't think there's such a
>>thing as "mercy capitalism".
....Joe
>
>        God, you are hopeless. Sure, the multinationals didn't go to Hungary
>to do charity work or lose money. Sure, they want to make money and
>eventually they will even make profit. (For a number of years they will not
>because of the heavy investments needed originally to modernize or establish
>plants.) But, while they are making profit for themselves they are also
>paying taxes, they are employing thousands of workers whom they pay quite
>well, and bring hard currency into the country.
>>        Eva Balogh

Dear Joe/Eva:

Eva - Perhaps hopeless, might be a tad harsh - lack of first hand knowledge
might be more accurate?

During my last two trips to Hungary, I had the pleasure of meeting with
several engineers (Italian and Japaneese)  involved with setting up of joint
ventures in Hungary.  Two large plants are are now undergoing major
modernizations as a result of these ventures.  The Hungarian employees are
already benefitting through the rigorous training programs made available to
them by the foreign partners, while being paid significantly higher salaries
than prior, even though the plants are not near ready for production.

It is anticipated that the return of investment will not be foreseen for at
least five years.  After which, it is hoped, that market penetration of the
products will have been sufficient for profit.  The way I see it; it's no
different than any other business venture anywhere else in the world - there
are huge risks, with no guarantees - immediate benefits to *only* the locals.

As it turns out, both these plants were doomed to shut down.  Reason rather
simple - products were not meeting western world requirements and the
eastern world shows no further interest, or funds with which to purchase.

In these two instances at least, I see a real positive aspect in foreign
investments within Hungary.  Having said that, releasing utilities ie: water
supply to the French - leaves me equally baffled.  That deal in particular I
am most upset about.  But in all honesty, I also am not aware of all it's
ins and outs.  Can anyone out there enlighten me?

In addition; I don't know how often all of you travel to Hungary as of late
- but the changes during the last five years are near incomprehensible.  The
infrastructure due solely to foreign investments are mind boggling and ever
changing.  The scope of supply is astounding!  (stupid minute thing, but I
would kill to have access to one of their "standard design upright freezers
for example - for in NA, there is not one, that can come even close).  Seven
years ago, were anyone to show me a photograph that this is what some cities
will end up looking like - I would have laughed uncontrollably in disbelief
(and likely would have dropped a few adjectives too).  But, amazingly
enough, even with all the complaining and crying, the Hungarians themselves
seem most elated by the changes; and surely they alone are the beneficiaries
and ought to be listened to?

Further amazing is, that while these changes are ongoing, preservation of
basic culture, family values, entertainement and allowing oneself to be be
spoiled remain quite affordable.  The educational system remains far above
NA's.  The women look incredibly well kept - the men likewise;-) the operas
are filled, as are the restaurants, the coffee houses, movie theatres,
(interesting to add; five days ahead ticket purchase for "Independance Day"
- or no see)  shops et al, cars are fine, people are vacationing and have
time to enjoy their lives - each day; small businesses appear to thrive -
rather than fail.  Pollution is down, and people continue to complain and
cry - with a smirk ever so hard to see.  Yes, they work really hard too -
but where do they not?

If I had a complaint about Hungary - it would be to change the mentalities
at large of all beurocrats(sp)  in positions of dealing with the public -
that, for one has not changed at all - in fact is stuck in the 50's
somewhere.  Attitudes of people in older established financial institutions
for example - are outrageous!  The communist inbread mentality lives long
and hard - when a simple "cashier" can reduce a substantially well to do
invidual to tears by "exercising her almighty position" - is alive and well,
right in Budapest less than two weeks ago.  I met an elderly couple for
L.A.,  for example who were practically reduced to tears, in attempts at
switching a simple bank account - which took over 2 months to accomplish.
In the same institution, a fax, takes five days to travel three doors down
on the same floor.  And, bankwires, can take up to two weeks to accomplish -
within two major cities in Hungary ...  And ... oh yes, the "fo-igazgato"
(president) ... is always out for a coffee break - not to mention, that they
like to have use of your money interest free in the meantime - but will not
spend money on a fax - to advise you of any imperative changes to your
account.

Without foreign influence, I am afraid that this mentality will never
change.  Even with it thus far,  it's hard to knock these beuros off their
high horses.  If it never changes, Hungary, in my opinion can kiss all the
foreign investment good-bye!  For none of us, being spoiled by service
oriented attitudes will ever be prepared to put up with it for any length of
time.  Without foreign investment, all those plants previously supported by
the regime, are doomed to fail.  That, of course does not mean, that the
governing bodies ought not to be intelligent with controls - but, on the
other hand  ... show me a country, where they are...

For what it's worth ... my observations.

Best regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.Stowe wrote:

>In article >,
>Janos Zsargo > writes:
>
>> I think this is right, however I disagree with
>>G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals
>>in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is
>>no difference between them criminals and judges.
>
>How about sentencing them to serve in godawful places like Rwanda and
>Kurdistan with international relief agencies if they're found guilty? It
>might do much to remind them of the cost of inhumanity and actually induce
>a sense of guilt and shame in them for what they did as younger men.
>Sam Stowe

I don't know, maybe my English again. Is this a joke or what? If it is
(at least I assume) you found a suitable subject to joke with, didn't you?

J.Zs
+ - Poverty in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi everybody.  I am not arguing with anybody, just add my opinion to the
others'.  As an ex-member of what the Marxists called (quite accurately)
the 'ruling class'  in the Horthy era (and my ancestors before me before WW
I) I think I have at least some eyewitness perspective on the issue.
Hungary had been a poor country for centuries.  During the Napoleonic wars
the fact that Hungary was not directly involved (meaning, that no battles
were fought on Hungarian territory) Hungary enjoyed the role of supplier of
agricultural goods.  This benefited the landowners, but for the poor
people, the really small holders, the serfs, it didn't make one damn bit of
difference.  They were as poor as ever since the Dozsa revolt.  The
Werboczy Tripartite condemned them for ever and ever to abject poverty.
And in this respect the difference between poor Hungarians and poor Slovaks
or Rumanians was about the same as between the 'white trash' and the
'niggers' here a hundred years (or less) ago.  It has to be understood (in
my humble opinion) that the ruling classes (and here the
industrial-military classes are just as mush ruling classes as we were in
Horthy Hungary) owe to themselves, to their Capitalist principles to
produce the maximum profit potential from whatever they do, and since they
can't control weather, price of raw materials, transportation, etc. they
make their money on labor.  Labor will try to better their lot always and
ever.  The unions did a good job on this for a while, but they became just
as greedy as the employers.  The typical capitalist has no sympathy for the
poor, because he owes to his own pride to regard himself way above those,
who didn't make it.  Like most people who managed to escape from Hungary
think that God loves them, especially loves them, those who make good think
the same.  This makes Republicans fundamentalists, and vice versa.
I said it before and I say it again.  Both after WW I and WW II Hungary was
bled white.  Neither Horthy nor Rakosi could help that.  Changes in systems
don't make much difference.  As Eva, I believe,  very correctly put it, no,
land reforms, in which people who worked the land, get to own the land,
only change the ownership can help.Where we, landowners could produce
profitably because of being able to mass produce, individual holders of
maybe up to 10 acres can hardly support themselves, let alone produce for
the market, export, and pay taxes.  The commies pretty soon changed to
co-ops, which was reasonable, but it put the share holders into the same
position as they were when the land was held by the landowners.  Without
sizeable investment land can only produce so much, and no more, (especially
with little irrigation, and it should not be forgotten, that the Danube,
being international, can not b used) and the question is how that produce
is distributed.  The more goes to the people, the less goes to export, the
less GPO for the country.  Taxing the poor people only kills them.  There
is no question, that the poor, uneducated get a lousy deal.  But how to
solve this, is another question.  No problem is ever solved, only replaced
by new problems.
   Capitalism versus socialism?  The problem is the people: humanity.
Greed will be victorious whatever the system.  Educating people to be
ethical, not to take advantage of the position if which they are, could
help.  But education is only getting worse, not better.  People in the
ivory towers are full of good will, but their efforts always fail.  Because
they don't take into consideration that execution of tasks is in the hands
of greedy, often careless people, who will do just as little as possible,
to get a paycheck.  And my respect to the exceptions, and there are plenty
of those.  But they trash in rapid waters, trying to save the drowning,
then drown themselves
Glory be!

Karoly
+ - What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

First, let me thank Aniko for that wonderful, up-to-date piece on
her experiences in Hungary only a few days ago. Budapest is thriving, no
question about it. Unemployment is practically nonexistent and as several
people on Internet lists said on the spot: anyone can get a job who wants to
get it. In some other parts of the Hungary the situation is not that rosy,
especially in the northeast. And yes, there is a large segment of the
population--retired people mostly--who are very badly off. These people are
the loosers of the "rendszervaltozas. And people we call "civil servants,"
(kozalkalmazottak) teachers and some doctors who don't get too many
"envelopes" containing thousands of forints from the patients to make sure
that they get special treatment also consider themselves loosers .

        Aniko, visiting the country once or twice a year, sees the changes
ever more sharply than the ones who live there. Moreover, those people--and
that includes the right as well as the left--who are unhappy with the
introduction of market economy and democracy--emphasize only the negative
aspects of the changes and thus, giving basically a distorted picture of
Hungarian society and economic life. And these people influence public
opinion more and more against the new regime. Now, let me emphasize again, I
am not happy about the corruption of the political elite; I am not happy
about many, many things, including the way Hungary has squandered its
economic advantage in comparison to Czechoslovakia and Poland; but I am
optimistic that in five or ten years Hungary will be infinitely better off
than it is today. And I mean, all segments of society. I consider the people
who write articles like this demagogs. This is the article Barna Bozoki
published in Forum and asked the people whether the situation was really
that bad:

>"Persze rengeteg jo tanacsot kapunk: kerelmezheto a kozgyogyellatas,
>reszletfizetest kerhetunk az elektromos muvektol, a piacon a hullott
>barackot es csirkebort olcsobban lehet vasarolni, a lyukas ciponket
>kitomhetjuk ujsagpapirral, az onkormanyzatnal sorba allhatunk segelyert,
>szoval sok minden van, ami meg lehet, amit meg lehetne probalni, ha eleg
>egeszsegesek es alazatosak vagyunk hozza, ha meg elni akarunk, ha azt
>hisszuk, hogy szamit meg valakinek, hogy hazat epitettunk, gyereket
>tanitottunk, unokat dajkaltunk, berelszamoltunk, konyvet irtunk, ha azt
>hisszuk, hogy valakinek fontosak vagyunk, mert itt szulettunk, mert ez az
>anyanyelvunk, mert egyszeruen emberek vagyunk. Torodjunk bele, hogy nem.
>Hogy nem jar nekunk semmi."

English translation:

"Of course, we get an awful lot of good advice: one can request public
medical service, we can request partial payments from the electric company;
we can buy fallen peaches and chicken skin cheaper on the market; we can
stuff our shoes with newspapers when there is a hole; we can stand in line
for relief. So, there are many things, which are possible, which we can try,
if we want to survive, if we believe that it makes a difference to anyone
that we used to build houses, we used to teach, we used to babysit for our
grandchildren, we worked as accountants, we wrote books, if we believe that
we are important, because we were born here, because this is our mother
tongue, because we are just ordinary people. We should admit that that we
are not important. Let's face it that we don't deserve anything!"

        I found it especially interesting that the lady who wrote this piece
was one of the worst, most subservient writers of the Rakosi regime. Barna
Bozoki remembered her as the author of lovely stories for teenagers. Yes,
she was that also and some people, the ones who are younger than we are,
remember her only that way. But there was more to Klara Feher, the author of
these lines, than lovely books written for teenagers. She was one of the
most despicable, subservient writers and journalists of the Rakosi regime.
Some people of my age who stayed in Hungary remembered her from the Kadar
regime as well and apparently she wasn't exactly a reform-communist during
that period either. And this woman today (she died shortly after writing
this article) is writing in a tone which is basically the tone the far
right. This woman who received all the awards the old regime ever deviced
(Kossuth, Attila Jozsef, God knows what else) is writing as being one of the
"ordinary people." You know the kind who has to eat fallen peaches and the
skin of chicken. Well, I think it is sickening! Absolutely sickening!

        And what I find even more sickening is that all the right wingers on
the Forum stand by good old Klara Feher. Communist? Rakosi regime? A cheat?
The author of the most God-awful communist drivel? Never mind. She is one of
us now! Let's work on public opinion and let's try to make sure that neither
democracy nor market economy will work around here. And a few days after the
appearance of this piece of drivel, the skinheads lead by a neo-nazi are
throwing chicken feet on the stairs of a public building "in order to call
attention to the plight of the retired people." Now, this is really neat!
Words do have power, don't they? Chicken feet? I guess it is hard to throw
chicken skin!

        Sorry, being carried away, but I find this sickening. And by the
way, it never fails: strange bedfellows can be found on this list also, when
it comes to demagoguery.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: poverty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:51 AM 11/7/96 -0600, Andras Kornai wrote:

<snip>
>I find the view that E1va, Barna, and Joe are agreeing on rather naive.
>Surely, being poor is the "dog bites man" case that requires no special
>explanation, and being rich is the "man bites dog" case that causes a
>sensation. Animals are poor. They live lives that are short and brutish.
>So did the vast majority of humankind until the 20th century.

So there's no need to do anything about it, right?  The poor should just
count their blessing that they're living in this century and not the last,
right?

>Pockets of lessened poverty, even to the minimal extent of having one's basic
>needs (food, clothing, shelter) taken care of, have started to emerge on a
>societal scale only after the industrial revolution, and the phenomenon of
>having a large segment of the population that could be called well to do is
>quite new, and still restricted to the major industrial nations. Meanwhile,
>billions of people still live in dire poverty.

Having basic (food, clothing, shelter) human needs met was not something
that "emerged" and the fact that some people are "well to do" is not a
"phenomenon".  It was something that was fought for.  It was, and continues
to be, a struggle.

>At one point Henry Ford started to pay his workers above the going rate, an
>idea that seemed extremely strange at the time, but one that caught on
>eventually. From that point onwards it became possible to get rich without
>exploiting your fellow man, and Balzac's aphorism that at the foundation of
>every large fortune there is a major crime ceased to be true. Bill Gates
>didn't get to be the richest man in America by exploiting his workers, in
>fact there are thousands of employees who became millionaires at Microsoft.
>One might of course argue that DOS was a major crime...

Isn't it the exception, or the few exceptions, that proves the rule?

>Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
>blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
>if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but perhaps
>switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the weather.
>Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its problems
>are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are caused
>by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.

Oh, Andra1s!  Your analogies are often quite good, even humourous and
insightful, but the above stinks.  People are not crops and society is not a
"device to make life less brutish and short".  Then again, I can agree with
you that poverty doesn't cause social problems.  Greed does!  And please
don't tell me that the poor are greedy.

Joe Szalai

In the 1950's Henry Ford II had just automated another plant.  He said to
United Auto Workers president Walter Reuther: "How are you going to get
these machines to pay union dues?"  Reuther replied: "How are you going to
get them to buy cars?"
              CALM
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:46 AM 11/7/96 -0800, Charlie Vamossy wrote:

<snip>
>Ok Joe, you made your point.  US citizens also pay sales taxes and property
>taxes, where and when applicable.   But what does that have to do with
>voting rights?  Is anyone in Canada denied access to the voting booths
>because they are behind paying their property taxes?  Or because they have
>not bought gasoline, tobacco or alcohol in the last 30 days?
>
>Taxes, for the most part, are not tied to citizenship, while voting is.  As
>a US citizen (or as a Hungarian citizen) visiting Canada (as I did last
>summer) I have to pay GST when I buy gas, stay in a hotel, etc.  Having paid
>these Canadian taxes, however, does not assure me right to vote there.

The point I was trying to make was, "no taxation without representation".
And you're right that taxes for the most part are not tied to citizenship,
while voting is.  What I have a problem with is people who want to vote in
more than one election because of dual citizenship or because they pay taxes
on investments in foreign countries.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The Value of the Internet Discussion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:

<snip>
>I was referring to my post on the Hungarian language FORUM quoting a well
>known ex-communist writer's writing about poverty. I was disappointed that
>the discussion turned into a bashing of the writers character, rather than
>a discussion of the message.

Not that it's right, but such behaviour comes with the territory.  Political
discussion is not everyone's cup of tea.

>But aside from this specific case, I don't agree that there can be no
>failure in a discussion. If one writes with a purpose and the desired
>result is not achieved the writing is a failure.

This sounds too mechanical to me, Barna.  When you go into a dark room and
turn the light switch on, the room becomes lit.  People and ideas usually
don't have a handy little on/off switch.  What that means is that lots of
time and patience is needed.  A tough skin is also helpful.

>Earlier this year I wrote about the World Federation of Hungarians. My
>purpose was to provide input to the reorganization of the Canadian Council
>of this organization. No one responded. So I failed to convince the
>readers, that it is our interest to care about this organization.

You would have failed if you didn't try.  You tried.  You did what you could
at the time.  In my eyes that's not failure.  Not all attempts are
successful but surely that's not reason enough to not try.

>Last year I tried to solicit help to put Hungarian books on a CD and on the
>Internet. A few people indicated that they would help, but very few did.

>I very much enjoy our discussion about poverty, but I have no
>illusions that we are helping a cause.

I wouldn't be so dismissive about discussion.  People form their ideas and
opinions by what they hear, see, learn, experience, etc.  What you and I and
others discuss will become part of other people's experience.  Changes may
happen and causes may be helped but it'll take time.  Sometimes the process
is painfully slow but I think it's better than the alternatives.

Joe Szalai

"Freedom is hammered out on the anvil of discussion, dissent, and debate."
            Hubert H. Humphrey

"If we had had more time for discussion we should probably have made a great
many more mistakes."
            Leon Trotsky
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:47 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki, responding to Eva Durant, wrote:

<snip>
>I would love to see a better system. I consider it obscene that CEO's,
>baseball and movie stars pocket millions dollars, while millions of people
>can not feed their kids. Unfortunately I don't know anybody who can propose
>and implement a viable alternative. So until we find the Messiah who can
>change the system, I think we should do what we can to embarrass our
>politicians to do what they can to reduce poverty.

In this century almost every "Messiah" has turned out to be "Beelzebub".
Perhaps we'd be better off if we stopped waiting for Messiah's to lead us.
As for your last sentance, all I can say is, "right on".

Joe Szalai
+ - Kapcsolat felvetel (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szeretnek felvenni kapcsolatot magyar szemelyekkel

ismerkedes celjabol.

PARIS 07/11/96

> E-mail : 
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 7:22 PM 11/6/96, S or G Farkas wrote:
>At 02:46 PM 11/6/96 +0000, Dr. Nandor Balogh brings up the 1956 revolution
>in this thread.  I would like to ask in this context a question of those who
>participated in the revolution (I was too young and lived in Romania):
>
>In the book Cry Hungary (that was mentioned recently on this list) there is
>a series of photographs, showing the summary execution of a group of
>AVO-members by freedom fighters. Those executed were  apparently unarmed,
>they  look very young, probably conscripts. Does anybody know what happened
>there, how frequent was this kind of "justice" and what happened to those
>who acted as judges and executioners?
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

When the prisons were opened in Hungary, not only the political prisoners
but criminals were  also let out. Some of them participated in the
revolution, some of them committed new crimes. During the siege of the
Budapest communist party headquarters the attackers executed some of their
prisoners, hanged and mutilated others. The siege was filmed by western
reporters and many pictures about the attrocities later appeared in LIFE
magazine. Using these pictures Kadar's police later identified the
participants, for example, a  BESZKART woman who was spitting on the corps
of a mutilated soldier hanged upside down on a tree on Koztarsasag Square.
The Kadar regime punished the participants. One of the soldiers facing the
firing squad survived. There were several lamp-post affairs throughout
Budapest. A few dozen people died, some of them innocently. The
Mosonmagyarovar massacre was followed up by lynching. In front of the
parliament demonstrators were fired upon; 100 persons died or were wounded.
The people were infuriated.

As a leader of an armed student patrol a crowd led my men to the apartment
of an AVH men. We arrested the suspect and escorted him to a police
station. On the way to the police we had to protect the man from a crowd
which wanted to hang him. As late as November 3, I had been attacked by a
group of men who took me for an AVH man because I wore beige shoes and a
Czech raincoat. An army patrol saved my life.

These occurrences were sharply condemned by numerous revolutionary groups;
the free Hungarian press, the Writers' Union and leaders of armed fighters
also spoke out against lynch-justice.

Kadar took his revenge. From the end of 1956 to 1959 about 35,000 persons
were investigated. 26,000 faced the courts, 22,000 were sentenced. 13,000
were interned. 350 were executed.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
+ - Re: Poverty in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, CHARLES J CSIPKAY wrote:

<snip>
> As an ex-member of what the Marxists called (quite accurately)
> the 'ruling class'  in the Horthy era (and my ancestors before me before WW
> I) I think I have at least some eyewitness perspective on the issue.

I appreciate the ruling class perspective of this issue, I see it from the
proletariate's perspective. As an amateur genealogist I collected a lot of
oral history from the time of about 1845 of the struggles of my relatives,
most of them tradesmen, like a mechanic in an estate, a village hatmaker
with nine kids, etc. It was a struggle for all of them. One common theme in
all their stories that there were decent places of work, but most places
were cruel and demeaning. It is not the lack of food, but the lack of
respect they got hurt them most.

> And in this respect the difference between poor Hungarians and poor Slovaks
> or Rumanians was about the same as between the 'white trash' and the
> 'niggers' here a hundred years (or less) ago.

I agree. The only difference I would point out, that the Slovak or Romanian
peasants got some moral support and a promise of a better life in a free
Slovakia or Romania from their priests, while the Hungarian surfs got a
lecture to bear their cross and respect their masters.

I do not think I am alone with my view that the Hungarian ruling class's
attitude to the poor contributed to the nationality problems, which in turn
led to the dismemberment of the country.

I personally heard Albert Wass blaming his family and his class, for not
treating the people such that they could love their country. As most
people know, he is a count from Transylvania and now lives in the US.

Gyula Illyes in his book "Ebed a kastelyban" describes a discussion with
his former landowner shortly after the 1945 landreform in his book "Ebed a
kastelyban" (Dinner in the Castle). The count's attempt to find excuses
for Illyes's accusations comes out very hollow.

Lajos Kassak in his autobiography "Egy ember elete" (Life of a Man)
about the life of a tradesman in Budapest supports my father's story. A
clerk in a office with grade eight education was a gentlemen. A tradesmen
in a factory was nobody, and this is after the World War I.

But this is history now, the only reason to think about it, is not to
repeat it. Antall reminded people of this world, and this is why his party
lost.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

J.Szalai wrote, refering to Mr.Csizsik-Csatary and Mr.Katriuk:

>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that society
>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
>criminals.

he also wrote, refering to our 'avos' and communist 'heroes':

>Do you not want the vicious cycle of revenge and retribution in Hungary to
>end?  I do.
>
>Joe Szalai

Good! Why do you think Mr.Csizsik-Csatary was guiltier than those in the AVO?
Don't you think you have a nice, well-developed double standard?

J.Zs
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>At 12:47 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki, responding to Eva Durant, wrote:

><snip>
>> So until we find the Messiah who can
>>change the system, I think we should do what we can to embarrass our
>>politicians to do what they can to reduce poverty.
>
><Snip-snip>
>As for your last sentence, all I can say is, "right on".

Here we go again. What can politicians do to reduce poverty? Tax those who
have more and give it to those who have less. This just does not work.

In any case, I would not trust a politician to care for my cat (if I had
one), so why trust them with solving the poverty problem?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        God, you are hopeless. Sure, the multinationals didn't go to Hungary
>to do charity work or lose money. Sure, they want to make money and
>eventually they will even make profit. (For a number of years they will not
>because of the heavy investments needed originally to modernize or establish
>plants.) But, while they are making profit for themselves they are also
>paying taxes, they are employing thousands of workers whom they pay quite
>well, and bring hard currency into the country.

Hmmm, instead of working for the Vatican, Mother Teresa should be working
for a multinational.  What, with all the good they do, it wouldn't look good
on any Nobel Prize winner to be outclassed.

By the way,  does anyone know who the employee of the week was at the
McDonalds next to the Nyugati pu. in Budapest?  And, is it true that
Russians call a 'Big Mac' a 'Bolshoi Mac'?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        Quite right, Joe. "Hungarians have no choice but to put their hopes
>into yet another venture." If it doesn't pan out it is not because it is
>unworkable but because the joint effort of left and right will torpedo it.

So, what would you like to see?  A national coalition government?  That
would probably work but it's a non starter.  Those whose standard of living
has fallen since 1989 will not agree to a 'common cause' with those whose
standard rose.  Hungarians lack a viable social contract.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:52 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>J.Szalai wrote, refering to Mr.Csizsik-Csatary and Mr.Katriuk:
>
>>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
>>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
>>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that society
>>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
>>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
>>criminals.
>
>he also wrote, refering to our 'avos' and communist 'heroes':
>
>>Do you not want the vicious cycle of revenge and retribution in Hungary to
>>end?  I do.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Good! Why do you think Mr.Csizsik-Csatary was guiltier than those in the AVO?
>Don't you think you have a nice, well-developed double standard?
>
>J.Zs

I didn't say anything about Csizsik-Csatary's guilt or innocence.  I said
that he should be treated properly and that under Canadian law he is
innocent until proven guilty.

So what's your problem?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, you wrote:

>The point I was trying to make was, "no taxation without representation".
>And you're right that taxes for the most part are not tied to citizenship,
>while voting is.  What I have a problem with is people who want to vote in
>more than one election because of dual citizenship or because they pay taxes
>on investments in foreign countries.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

I think you may have meant "no representation without taxes." But anyway, I
think we have already agreed that taxes have nothing to do with voting rights.

Also, before we tackle the thornier issue of dual citizenship rights, maybe
we can also agree that the current Hungarian constitution unreasonably
denies absentee voting rights to those who are citizens of Hungary only (and
probably pay Hungarian taxes, too, although that's immaterial), for the sole
fact that they are absent.  While it may be explainable that it is difficult
to ensure that everyone who is absent has the opportunity to vote, the
Hungarian Constitution simply states that only those who are inside the
country on election day may vote.  If you are absent from your polling place
but within Hungary, you can vote with an absentee ballot (thus the mechanism
exists).  If you are just a bit further across the border, you are out of
luck and constitutionally barred from voting, even though the mail system
work just as well if not better.

Note, also, that the Constitution allows ALL citizens inside Hungary on
election day, even those who permanently live outside Hungary.  So any
argument based on taxes, feeling the results of the vote, knowing local
issues, etc, have nothing to do with the problem.  You can reside on the
moon and return to Hungary for the first time in your life, as long as you
are a Hungarian citizen (maybe by virtue of your parentage), you can vote.
So much for Gyula Horn and his supporters' argument.  Maybe they should
study the Hungarian Constitution a little, before they speak.

As far as dual citizenship is concerned, I agree that holding two or more
citizenship at the same time is somewhat unusual and perhaps questionable to
some people.  Yet these things exist and each country has the sovereign
right to define who is a citizen and how one becomes one.  As a child of
divorced parents (and as a divorced and remarried father) I can understand
how one may accept two separate families as one's own and somehow learn to
exist with the anomaly.  As a native Hungarian citizen who never gave up his
citizenship and as a refugee to the US who was grateful for the welcome and
the chance to establish an existence at a time when Hungary considered me a
fugitive and probably a criminal for taking part ion the revolution and for
leaving the country illegally, I have learned to live with the fact that I
am indeed a citizen of two countries.

The question is that can I, as a citizen, be denied the most basic of
rights, the right to participate in the democratic process.  Ordinarily, one
of three conditions would prevent me from the right to vote:  being a minor,
mental illness or a prior criminal record.  Hungary, unfortunately, adds a
fourth condition:  out of sight, out of right.

Regards,


Charlie Vamossy
+ - Re: Magyar versek az Interneten (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szabo Attila >:
>
>   Irdekelne hogy vannak-e magyar versek valahol a Web-en, ugyanis
>feltettem az sajatomat meg az anyamit is ezekhez az amatvr versekhez
>valami profi linkeket szeretnik kapcsolni ;-)
>
>A verseim URL cmme:
>
>    http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/2707/versek.htm
>
>  Minden vtletet is ztbaigazmtast elvre is megkvszvnok.
>
>  Szabs Attila
>
Kedves Attila!

Rakattintottam az URL-etekre: teljesen igazad van abban, hogy profi linkeket
szeretnel kapcsolni ezekhez az amator versekhez.

Hirtelenjeben az alabbiakat talaltam:

Ady-, Babits- es Jozsef Attila-versek:
http://www.btk.elte.hu/~celia/ja/versek2.htm

Matko Peter (Debreceni Orvostud. Egyetem) kedvelt olvasmanyai, kozottuk egy
Kosztolanyi- es egy Radnoti-vers:
http://jaguar.dote.hu/~peter/read/pet_olv.html

A Magyar Elektronikus Konyvtarat is erdemes megnezni:
GOPHER://gopher.mek.iif.hu/

Jalsovszky Gyorgy

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