Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 808
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-10-03
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Amazing America (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Amazing America (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Surname Definition (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Amazing America (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Amazing America (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
10 40 years ago; Canada, 1956: Part 7. (mind)  75 sor     (cikkei)
11 Denmark (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
12 40 years ago; Canada, 1956: Part 8. (mind)  112 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Amazing America (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
14 In support.... (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Sophistry (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: could they have been saved? (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Amazing America (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Sophistry (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
22 Peter Soltesz (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Amazing America (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: In support.... (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Amazing America (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Amazing America (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Amazing America (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
31 Amazing America (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Amazing America (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
34 Hungarian Salaries, et al. (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Amazing America (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Amazing America (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: could they have been saved? (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Amazing America (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Sophistry (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: Amazing America (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Amazing America (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
45 You are right Andy...I will leave your religion out of (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
47 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
48 Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zolika, "Dra'ga" the "ultimate self acclaimed" brain in the universe .....
At 06:25 PM 01/10/96 -0400, you wrote in answer to >Sam Stowe who wrote to
to Zsargo Janos as way below:
>
Ok!  -   Sam; Janos - I would like to address this post primarily to you two
- only because the posting was addressed as such.  But also Joe, George Sz,
F, Andra's, Eva, Marina, Jeliko, Janka, Agnes, Mark, Karoly, Bala'zs,
Cecilia,  Andy, Martha, Hugh, Zoli F, Bandi  et al ?... where are you)? -
and no, I am not attempting to collect any type of "collaberative effort"  -
I only am wondering, where you are all at now!  And, that your read of my
questions, which remain to be numerous.  Amongst them is "When does a Guest,
earn the right to become a Host"?  Keeping in mind, that when that happens
they also assume all the responsibilites of the Host?

Btw... another of my long standing question as to who actually finances the
"American" education of this "self acclaimed universal brain power, who
claims that his name is Zoltan Sze'kely" still remains unaddressed.
(Although, indications by incredibly strong insinuations could hardly be
missed).

Sorry all ... I guess that I have reached the end of my ultimate tolarence
in allotting this "Guest of the West" any more slack ... for lack of lingo,
for lack of culture knowledge ... intelligence (ha?.. did I really say
that)?  Whoops ... here I go, again, extending undully earned credit??? -
But .... once, I  *really did* ask God to eventually extend to him the
required brain power with which to put his teachings to work on a day to day
basis! - Either the "eventual has not come as of yet, or he did not hear me?

Regards to all (to Zolika Draga - no regards)
Aniko
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01540b00ae75443e6698@[198.168.48.46]>, "Peter I. Hidas"
> writes:

> Both Bulgaria and Hungary were willing to to rob
>their Jewish citizens of their properties, dignity and livelihood but not
>their lives.

What about the massacres around Ujvidek? The regent and his government
certainly seemed willing enough to countenance the murders of several
hundred Jews and Serbs that they allowed the massacre's perpetrators to
flee Hungary to Germany. What about the Jewish refugees rounded up and
shipped to Kamenets-Podolsk for extermination? What about the thousands of
Hungarian Jewish men rounded up prior to 1944 and shipped to the Eastern
Front to die in punitive labor battalions? What about those Jewish men
rounded up and shipped to work the copper mines in Bor, Yugoslavia,
beginning in mid-1943? You say there was no rounding up and deportation of
Jews prior to the German occupation. It appears to me, however, that the
regent and some in his government were accomplishing that very goal with
the nation's population of Jewish males well in advance of the German
occupation. When, then, does deportation de facto become deportation de
jure, at least in the court of opinion presided over by professional
historians?
Sam Stowe
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>
> In our public schools students are being taught how to write suicide notes.
> They are being shown a variety of methods of creating suicide and given
> recommendations about which are preferable. They are told about and taught
> to do, indeed, build models of their coffins. The Bible says that those that
> hate God love death, and that is what all of this is: just death, death and
> more death.
> --Rev. D. James Kennedy, "A Noble Origin and Destiny"
>
>                                                            (quoted by Sz.Z)


What is the point Zoli ? One can dig out a quotation to support just about any
agenda.

                                    Mark
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Aniko Dunford asked:

> Peter/Zoltan -
> Question - are you two related?  Genetically or otherwise?

By sentiments, certainly.  I must admit to astonishment over the emergence
of a particular type of Hungarian that I have not encountered in Hungary
before.

People who are fanatically religious, in an intolerant and dogmatic way,
people who are clamouring for a very restrictive social agenda vis-a-vis
such issues as homosexuality and suicides.

The same people have no apparent understanding of how a modern parliamentary
democracy works and even less of how a modern economy operates.  In both
they want a very centralized and authoritarian direction that is most
reminiscent of the heydays of the very Communist regimes that these people
claim as the incarnation of the Devil.

Representatives of such people have been appearing especially from among
the ranks of emigre Hungarians living in the US and, what really astonishes
me, from among Hungarians brought up in Hungary.

George Antony
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:15 AM 10/2/96 +0100, Janos Zsargo wrote:

> Only the facts count, like the hungarian
> authorities was involved in the deportations regardless of their average
> 'humanity', or the hungarian jews were basicly in safety untill 1944
>regardless the jewish laws. This all stuff about the details is good only
>to cause more pains to the survivors.
>(And it seems there are quite a few on this list.)

Relative safety is a little bit of exaggeration. Please read Sam Stowe's
posting of yesterday. And he didn't even mention that in many cases those in
the labor battalions were used as live mine-detectors: there were sent out
into suspected mine-fields to trigger the mines with their bodies. Many
units were killed in their totality this way. And please, don't tell me that
many fighting units also perished. It is true, but I still think it is very
different.

As far as your last sentence is concerned, I find it objectionable. Are you
complaining about too many survivors? Or what do you mean? For your
information, in my immediate family three of my grandparents, an aunt and an
uncle of mine (both were children) were killed. My parents did survive,
although my mother "did" Auschwitz and a march after it where about one
hundred of them survived out of around two thousand women. My
great-grandmother had eleven siblings but after the war I had no relatives
left (except those who escaped to Palestine in 1933 and a few who survived).

It is my duty to speak up in the name of all who perished and cannot do it.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 9:45 PM 10/1/96, Stowewrite wrote:
 When, then, does deportation de facto become deportation de
>jure, at least in the court of opinion presided over by professional
>historians?
>Sam Stowe

Let me answer you with a section of a speech of mine delivered in Montreal
in 1994.

According to the census of 1941 the population of Hungary numbered 9.3
million. There were 825,000 Jews in the country. Following the Nazi
occupation of Poland about 100,000 Poles sought and received refuge in
Hungary. A significant number of them were Jewish. In 1941 the government
decided to reevaluate its refugee policies. About 18,000 Jews who could not
prove their Hungarian citizenship were deported to Galicia where 16,000 of
them were butchered by the SS Eisatzgruppen and their Ukrainian and
Hungarian collaborators. A year later the infamous Ujvid=E9k raid  took
place. In search of Yugoslav partisans the Hungarian army murdered 4,000
civilians amongst them 1,000 Jews in a southern Hungarian town. Before the
German occupation, that is before 19 March 1944, fifty to sixty thousand
Jewish men were enrolled in labour battalions.  By the said date 15,000 of
them were dead and another 10,000 died before the end of the war.  Of the
25,000 who were captured by the Russian hardly any survived the war.

The road to Auschwitz was opened in March 1944. The German army occupied
Hungary and Horthy was forced to appoint a pro-German government. There was
no resistance. Soon Adolf Eichmann appeared with his small team to organize
the deportation of all Hungarian Jews to death camps.  The Hungarian
genocide began in the spring of 1944. According to Veesenmayer, Hitler's
plenipotentiary in Budapest, whose data is confirmed by other sources,
437,402 persons were deported from Hungary with the full cooperation of the
new government, the civil service, the gendarmerie and the Jewish Council.
Horthy and the people looked on passively. A few cheered, even fewer
protested. Copies of the Auschwitz Protocol, information about the planned
extermination of the Jews of Hungary was passed on to the Allies, to the
Hungarian government, the Jewish Council, Horthy and the head of the
Catholic Church. Nobody warned the victims. Nobody protested publicly. The
British government forbade Palestinian Jewish commandoes to parachute into
Hungary and arouse the Jews. The Americans refused to bomb the railway
lines leading to Auschwitz. The Canadian government declined to take in
Hungarian Jewish children. The Allies disallowed  trading trucks for lives
earnestly offered by the SS.

The Pope addressed a personal plea to Horthy on June 25, 1944, which was
followed by the warnings of President Roosevelt on June 26, and that of
King Gustav of Sweden on June 30. Horthy prohibited further deportations.
By now all the Jews from the countryside were gone. The gas chambers of
Auschwitz were working day and night. The overload was thrown onto the
constantly burning open pits. In Hungary the respite was only temporary.
Eichmann, with the help of the Hungarian Nazis, the Arrow Cross Party, who
were put into power in October 1944, continued his work. From the Jews of
Budapest another 50,000 were handed over to the Germans. The number would
have been 15,000 higher without the heroic activities of Raul Wallenberg.
During the next six months another 15,000 Jews died within Hungary mainly
as a result of the Arrow Cross attrocities. The most Jews of Budapest,
however, survived, albeit decimated. But what happened to the 490,000
deportees? 50,000 who survived the Holocaust in Germany decided never to
return to Hungary. 310,000 fell victim to genocide.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Re: Surname Definition (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how I feel about a little German "contamination." :) At
least other parts of the family have good Hungarian names. Thanks.

 >On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, kate sulzer wrote:
>
>> Ok, how about "Szulzer?" That was what our name was until the immigration
>> officials got to it. Does anyone know about this one?
>>
>
>I cannot be sure, but the Upper-German root for 'salt' is the most likely
>explanation: brine, pickles, certain sausage types, salt water, even the
>word 'sauce' go back to this root-variant.
>
>Louis Elteto
>
>
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

First let me state that I find it quite interesting that both Aniko
Dunford and Marina Pflieger (both Canadians) have fallen from being
god fearing people. Perhaps it was their communist upbringing in Hungary
that closed their eyes to the truth.  The fact is that I as an a American
have learned many things here that the Hungarians in Hungary and elsewhere
apparently have not yet (mostly). Moroever, it is very disturbing to see
my countrymen(women) to have fallen thusly wherein they have no longer
any fera (nor respect for God, life and humanity). They have been overtaken
with the current liberalism which allows everything, that resepcts nothing
and stays away from what is right and moral. If Zoli and I were in the
same place you might even attempt to stone us beccause we dare to tell YOU
that what you are doing is not what is right according to the Judeo-Christian
ethic upon which the Israel, UK, USA, Canada, Australia and other Anglo world
was based on for many many centuries.

It is bad enough that YOU have fallen from the right path, but PLEASE
PLEASE do not force me or my children to be witnesses to lawlessness
against God or humnaity. Please do not tell my kids (or any kids for that
matter) that they should know about killing others nor themselves -- it
is WRONG!

Some of this may apply to George as well........

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, George Antony wrote:

> Aniko Dunford asked:
>
> > Peter/Zoltan -
> > Question - are you two related?  Genetically or otherwise?
>
> By sentiments, certainly.  I must admit to astonishment over the emergence
> of a particular type of Hungarian that I have not encountered in Hungary
> before.
>
> People who are fanatically religious, in an intolerant and dogmatic way,
> people who are clamouring for a very restrictive social agenda vis-a-vis
> such issues as homosexuality and suicides.
>

<<<<<<<<<< We are NOT fanatical nor intolerant -- what we are intolerant
about is that YOU insist that you want to change the basis upon which these
wonderful blessed countries were created. It is that YOU are trying to
force us to accept YOUR evil ways because you think that we are too rigid
or dogmatic. We are neither.... but we do draw the line between being
tolerant and being sinful.

> The same people have no apparent understanding of how a modern parliamentary
> democracy works and even less of how a modern economy operates.  In both
> they want a very centralized and authoritarian direction that is most
> reminiscent of the heydays of the very Communist regimes that these people
> claim as the incarnation of the Devil.

<<<<<<<<<<< George you are full of it! It is you that do not understand
how the system works, especially the American system, I have been to
Australia, even Queensland (where it is hot and perhaps overheating your
brain). I saw the STUPIDITY of arguing the opposite of EVERY issue just
because the representative was on the opposite party. It was insane ---
the party in power said that it was sunny outside, then the party out-ot
power (opposition) stated that no it is dark outside. Neither was trying
to find the truth, wasting time, energy, money and being stupid! So much
for your parliamentary system -- it does not work, becuase of people like
YOU who cannot accept the truth, who are not working for the overall
benefit of others, but just wish to argue your empty oppositions to
reality no matter what the cost!

But there is a cost! YOU will find out one day the wrath of GOD...because
YOU were placed in a sitaution to be able to help other people and you
have fallen down on your job!

I challenge you George any time about basic economics...I guess the
problem is that you subscribe to liberal economic theories and I
subscribe to consewrvative economic theories. The liberal economic
theories have their proof of failure here in the states and
elsewhere...more and more debt at the expense of the people! That's
socialism/communism for you!

> Representatives of such people have been appearing especially from among
> the ranks of emigre Hungarians living in the US and, what really astonishes
> me, from among Hungarians brought up in Hungary.

<<<<< You should not be astonished at us but rather you...perhaps it is
being upside down in the hot sun that is cause of your problems.  Just
because one is from Hungary (brought up under the communists dogma --
liberal BS does not mean that one canot find the truth and the right way
things actually work.

One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
WE are!

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Please scroll down to read the response to these two postings:


>Peter Soltesz wrote:
> As I stated earlier -- the H+Judeo-Christian religious ethic
> absolutely forbids suicide.
> Just because some Japanese and other cultures perform ritualistic
> suicides does NOT make them right!
> I certainly  (I I hope that no one out there) wants to have their
> children be taught about suicide.....things can be though enough
> without godless people out there!
> Peter Soltesz
>

> On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>
> > In our public schools students are being taught how to write suicide notes.
> > They are being shown a variety of methods of creating suicide and given
> > recommendations about which are preferable. They are told about and taught
> > to do, indeed, build models of their coffins. The Bible says that those tha
t
> > hate God love death, and that is what all of this is: just death, death and
> > more death.
> > --Rev. D. James Kennedy, "A Noble Origin and Destiny"
> >
> >                                                            (quoted by Sz.

Response:

The person who first contributed the article regarding the happiness that can
be attained after suicide was strange: Who has killed themselves and come back
to talk about it?  That's just more talking (fantasizing) w/o knowing.

However, the comment above that says, "Just because some Japanese and other
cultures perform ritualistic suicides does NOT make them right!" does not say
much either, .... because: just because Judeo-Christian religious ethic abso-
lutely forbids it does NOT just make it wrong!

There are many good and very godless people out there. It's often the people
who are sure they "have God" who are scarey. Suicide affects on the religious
as well as non-religious. People can have morals without having a god.

I do not believe in a god, but I see suicide as being horrible because of its
utter 'finality.' If you want to solve any kind of problem, you can try solu-
tions, think of options, try other possibilities... but suicide kills off all
options and rips you away from the scene. I couldn't imagine my soul moving
on with an unresolved problem... that I now would NEVER be able to solve becaus
e
I commited suicide. What an eternal haunt.

Finally, Zoltan, I have much greater experiences with the American school
system than you, and I never ran into any class that encouraged or concentrated
on suicide.  As a matter of fact, the American system is big on encouraging
optimism, belief in the individual and their own talents....  Did you know
that?

What about your country, Zoltan.  Friends from Veszprem tell me that in parts
of Hungary suicide is so prevalent that the attitude when someone hangs him/
herself is:  Well, he's taking after his father.  If this is the case and
Hungarian schools don't teach suicide, where did many of your compatriots
"learn it from?"... the family????

That's all,
Mark
+ - 40 years ago; Canada, 1956: Part 7. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like to dedicate my essay to those who gave their lives for freedom.

Peter I. Hidas

DAY SEVEN

Monday, 29 October 1956.
Rebels refused to lay down arms till Soviet troops left Budapest. Some
Soviet artillery and tank action continued.  Pravda denounced the
revolutionary forces.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)

        The Globe and Mail reported on Tuesday: "Up to late yesterday close
to 1,000 persons, mostly of Hungarian extraction, had signed to serve in a
Legion of Freedom."  Across Canada some 3,000 Hungarian-Canadians expressed
a desire to fight for Hungary. Leaders of Montreal's Hungarian community
were seeking ways and means to provide transportation for some 100
volunteers.  In Toronto  500 enlisted at the temporary HQ of the Legion.
The Hungarian leadership in Winnipeg was more cautious. They decided at
their meeting on that day, that money -- not men -- was urgently required
to help their former countrymen in strife-torn Hungary. After they
discovered  that the week-end recruiting drive for volunteers to join the
revolutionaries in Hungary had yielded no more than ten men, the Council of
Canadian-Hungarian Churches and Societies decided that it was useless to
send men to fight.(2)

        The idea of Canadian citizens fighting in Hungary disturbed a
number of civil servants in Ottawa. Prime Minister Louis St Laurent's
secretary, T. Wainman-Wood, informed External Affairs about two telegrams
just received  regarding the entry of volunteers from Canada into the
struggle in Hungary. One came from the Hungarian Liberation Committee in
Vancouver and the other one from the Canadian Hungarian Veterans
Association in Welland. "I should appreciate the advice of the Department
as to the nature of the reply to be sent to these particular telegrams
raising as they do the specter of the problems which we had over volunteers
for Israel a few years ago," concluded T. Wainman-Wood.(3)  External
Affairs now  decided to find out how the US was planning to deal with the
potential international complication. Jules L=E9ger was preparing a
memorandum for Pearson concerning Canadian editorial comments on Poland and
Hungary. He found that most editors simply analyzed events and demonstrated
sympathy for  the Hungarian people but demanded no action. Only TheWinnipeg
=46ree Press  proposed "large-scale aid and quiet diplomacy."(4) This
proposal was taken to heart. Ottawa concentrated on quiet diplomacy. In
public, however, Canada could not afford to disagree with its NATO allies.

        External Affairs  sent instructions to the Canadian delegation at
the United Nations in New York to associate Canada with the action that the
governments of France, the UK and the USA had taken in the Security Council
on October 28.(5)

        In the Middle East all was ready for the invasion of Egypt.


NOTES

(1)NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

(2)The Winnipeg Free Press, 30 October 1956; The Montreal Star, 30 October 1=
956.

(3)T. Wainman-Wood, Secretary [PM Louis St Laurent] to Mr. A.S.McGill,
Minister's Office, Department of External Affairs, October 29, 1956, NAC,
RG 2, 90-91/154,
        Box 108, File H-17.

(4)29 October 1956.

(5)Telegram from the Canadian Permanent Mission in NY to External Affairs,
30 October 1956, NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150, Box 111, File 8619-40, part 2; from
January 2, 1952 to October 31, 1956.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Denmark (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A very interesting brief article appeared in The Jerusalem Post
International Edition, week ending October 16, 1993. Author: Bent
Bludnikow (archivist at the National Archives of Denmark), title:
Three (muted) cheers for Denmark.

Below are a few excerpts:
In October 1943, Danish Jews were taken to safety in Sweden and thus
escaped the Nazis. This rescue action, an expression of altruism in
the midst of war, is indeed worth celebrating.

Today, everyone can look back with pride at the rescue of the Danish
Jews. Many Americans can tell you the story of the King of Denmark,
who wore the yellow star of David on his jacket out of solidarity with
theJews of this country - a story which is actually not true.

So far so good. The trouble is that the rescue isn't the whole story
of Denmark's attitude toward Jews in need, nor does it give a true
picture of the way it responded to the moral challenge of the 1930's and
the'40s. Denmark's heroic efforts were expended only to help Danish Jews.

As far as non-Danish Jews were concerned, and probably Gypsies as
well, there was no mercy. Jews from abroad - not least from Germany - tried
to get into Denmark in great numbers from 1933 onwards. When they got
here, they were either turned back at the border or given a temporary
residence permit for three to six months, and deported when it
expired.

Official Danish policy was consistent, and as hard as iron: K.K.
Steincke, the Social Democratic minister of justice, argued that
Germany's anti-Jewish laws were legitimate German legislation which
did not entitle Jews to asylum in Denmark. This cynical policy was
upheld through the whole war. Even during the
German occupation, Jews were turned away and deported.

Many Jews fled to Denmark after Kristallnacht in 1938, only to be met
by this cynical policy. In consequence, they had to seek refuge
elsewhere, and many ended up in Central Europe, where they were
subsequently picked up by the Nazis and sent to concentration camps.

It might be argued that this was normal policy for European countries
in those years, but Denmark belonged to the most restrictive
countries.
And no other country has portrayed itself as a democracy that passed
the test when the Nazi threat demanded special moral courage. ()

There are good reasons for celebrating the Danish rescue activities.
But if in all the cheering we forget the victims, if we forget that
every nation contains elements of both good and evil, of moral
engagement and moral indifference, we shall be guilty of a distorion
of history.Quoted by: J. Remigioni, Stuttgart, Germany
)*

Collegially,

Bob Michael

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - 40 years ago; Canada, 1956: Part 8. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like to dedicate my essay to those who gave their lives for freed=
om.

Peter I. Hidas


 DAY EIGHT

Tuesday, 30 October 1956.
Hungarian Air Force issued ultimatum and Soviet forces began to pull out of
Budapest. Premier Nagy promised free elections and an end to forced
collectivization of agriculture. Cardinal Mindszenty was freed. Moscow
published its October 30 declaration on relations with the satellites and
announced its willingness to negotiate withdrawal of its Warsaw Pact troops
from Hungary, Poland and Roumania. But satellites were to remain "peoples
democracies" and stay in Soviet  bloc.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)


        The first suggestion of The Winnipeg Free Press, material aid to
Hungary, was welcomed and acted on by Canadian-Hungarians. A delegation of
30 members of Montreal's Hungarian community gathered at the Montreal
Dorval airport at noon Tuesday, October 30, to bid Godspeed to an RCAF
North Star loaded with two tons of medical and hospital supplies. In
Toronto the plane took on   another three tons of supplies destined for the
relief of those wounded or injured in the Budapest fighting. The value of
the shipment was $40,000. The Canadian Red Cross asked the International
Red Cross to arrange future deliveries to Hungary through Vienna.(2) At the
same time well-informed UN and Red Cross representatives began to
reinterpret the situation. Peter Casson, United Nations High Commissioner,
forecasted to members of the Canadian Progress Club of Montreal that
European refugee camps would soon be swamped by 'freedom seeking'
Hungarians. The Canadian Red Cross began to coordinate its activities with
the International Rescue Committee.(3) Meanwhile, in Ottawa a more formal
arrangement with Hungary was under consideration.

        The Canadian-Hungarian trade agreement was ready for signature.
According to the draft press release on the proposed treaty, Hungarian
goods entering Canada would be entitled to Canadian most-favoured-nation
tariff rates. Three hundred thousand tons of wheat would be purchased by
Hungary within three years. Canada had agreed to the establishment of a
Hungarian trade  office in Montreal. The Agreement was to become the first
bilateral trade agreement between Canada and Hungary since the Second World
War. Previously, Hungarian goods had been subjected to the rates of duty of
the Canadian General Tariff. Trade between Canada and Hungary had been at a
low level. In 1955, Canadian exports to Hungary were valued at $165,000,
consisting mainly of clover seed, raw hides, wool rags and textile waste.
Imports from Hungary totalled $125,000 and consisted mainly of cut glass
tableware, broom corn, brooms and toys. In the first half of 1956, Canada
exported to Hungary 30,000 tons of wheat along with smaller shipments of
other products. Tibor Barab=E1s, leader of the Hungarian trade delegation,
informed Budapest of Jules L=E9ger's reservations that aimed at the avoidanc=
e
of a political settlement between the two contracting parties. L=E9ger
suggested that the office in Montreal was to be a branch office of a
Hungarian import-export agency or agencies with a staff of no more than
five persons without diplomatic or consular immunity. The office would only
remain in existence for the duration of the trade agreement.(4)  This was
quiet diplomacy. Cold war in public, business in private.

        The question of Hungarian volunteers still persisted. A morning
paper headlined: 1,000 Ready to Serve in Legion of Freedom.(5)  In
response, Pearson decided to hold a press conference and bring the question
to the cabinet the next day.  "No legal prohibition exists which would
prevent Canadian citizens from proceeding to Hungary to fight alongside the
insurgent forces," said Pearson, answering inquires mainly from Hungarians
in Toronto and Montreal. "No Canadian citizen wishing to go to Hungary need
'worry' about being allowed to return later," said the minister to
reporters.   In any event, Pearson doubted that the matter would have
practical application. He believed that the trend of events in Hungary
indicated that the strife in that country might soon be at an end.
Officials at External, nevertheless,  were not in a hurry to issue
passports to potential Canadian-Hungarian freedom fighters.(6)

        On this Tuesday the American Secretary of State J.F. Dulles
telephoned Pearson. Dulles, according to Pearson, was in a state of shock
on learning about the British-French ultimatum to Egypt. Israel, England
and France were readying their troops to invade Egypt in response to the
nationalization of the Suez Canal. Dulles said, that "as a result of their
brutalities in Eastern Europe, the Russians were on the run, but now the
British and French had done something which, it would be argued, was
comparable to the kind of action which the Russians had taken or were
accustomed to take in situations which they claimed to be of an emergency
kind." Pearson agreed wholeheartedly but would  not yet inform the
public.(7)


NOTES

(1)NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

(2)The Montreal Star, 30 October 1956.

(3) The Gazette  [Montreal], 31 October 1956.

(4)Commercial Agreement between Hungary and Canada; Most Favoured Nation,
Treatment, post-war, 1 November 1956, RG 25,  86/87/360, Box 62, File
9376-A-40,       part 2; from March 8, 1956 to May 30, 1960.

(5)The Globe and Mail, 30 October 1956.

(6)NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150, Box 111, File 8619-40, part 2; from January 2,
1952 to October 31, 1956.

(7) Reid, op.cit. 33.



Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Pardon to all!

In my last posting I said Andy brilliantly commented on P. Soltesz's dictator-
ship, actually, I think it was George Antony.

SORRY,
Mark
+ - In support.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mindenkinek!

I like this list.... and I have A LOT of respect for Marina Pflieger and Aniko
Dunford. (See bottom of posting.)

Peter, how can you say this and not laugh:

"[They] have fallen from being god fearing people. Perhaps it was their com-
munist upbringing in Hungary that closed their eyes to the truth....Moreover,
it is very disturbing to see my countrymen(women) to have fallen thusly wherein
they have no longer any fear (nor respect for God, life and humanity)..."

????  !!!!!!!!!!!!

Peter, HOW did they ever say they don't believe in god?  By accepting and
respecting others?  By questioning hypocrisy?  Sometimes you seem to have
closed your mind with this "Truth" of yours.  I feel they have open eyes and
open minds. How do they disrespect humanity?  By not falling for your type
of dictatorship (as I think Andy brilliantyly put it)?  Of course, I wouldn't
dare say that any 'god of love, justice and beauty' who promotes discrimination
of others and chauvinism is a contradicory faszfej, but it leaves very little
to admire. (!)

You told me once that the church is a collection of men and not a house of
bricks. True.  (It definitely sure isn't god either!)  Therefore, if they
question a religion or church, how does that make them atheists like me?

THEY have shown consideration and respect for others.  YOU are the one so often
justifying why such respect should be denied!

Finally, Peter, you said: "Please do not force me or my children to be wit-
nesses to lawlessness against God or humanity. Please do not tell my kids
(or any kids for that matter) that they should know about killing others or
themselves- it is wrong."

Wow, Peter, are you neurotic or where to you get this fear that these listmem-
bers would force anyone into lawlessness?  You are quick on the judgements
(like so many "Christians"), and I thought judging was the right of god alone!
Do your children like growing up in a glass house? Why can't they be respected
enough to make their own decisions in life... or should they learn everything
in the dark?  So, if they never hear that there are constructive, positive
homosexuals or that suicide exists, then these phenomena just happily won't
exist?

Wow, sometimes when I bump into such Christian attitudes, I feel living such a
life would just give me a lot less joy and heaven and a lot of hell. I feel
so less burdened ... and therefore more able to enjoy life and respect others.

There is so much in life to love and enjoy, not just categorize and run away
from.  Aniko seems like a really great mother, it would be an honor to have
been born into her family.  She has a lot of love, culture, and language to
offer.

Dear Aniko and Marina, please keep on thinking... and contributing.  You're
respect for others and willingness to think is appreciated.

Thank you... and may the earth goddess be with you all,

Mark
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:25 AM 10/2/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>It is my duty to speak up in the name of all who perished and cannot do it.

No, Gabor, it is not your duty to speak up.  It is OUR duty!  Each and every
one of us must speak up.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Which sig are you talking about, Sam?  Yours, or the one you credit to
>Plato?  I say "credit to" because I believe that it wasn't Plato who said
>those words, but your hero, Ross Perot.

Yes, Ross Perot -- what a God-like man he is! <Snicker!> Actually, Joe,
I'm giving some thought to casting my votes for that pack of
nuts...STATESMEN, I mean statesmen, affiliated with the Maharishi. You
know the ones I'm talking about? If we could all meditate, we'd all be a
lot happier? And the sig is from Plato. Wonder if he had jug ears and a
Texas twang?
Sam Stowe
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>"Which one of the three candidates would you want your daughter to
marry?"
>           H. Ross Perot
>
>



"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>It sounds like Big Brother tries to encourage the little one.
>No, sir, Hungary did not inflicted miseries on itself. The Big
>Brother did it. In Trianon the Antant was the Big Brother,
>after this the Third Empire, and later the Russian. (Who knows,
>maybe the United States of America wants to be the next one?)
>
>May God save us from Big Brothers forever!            Sz. Zoli
>
>

And it's exactly this kind of rationalization that would lead Hungary back
into the soup at the earliest possible juncture. Notice I said "would." I
imagine you sound just as stupid and rabid in Hungarian to your countrymen
as you do in English to me. I suspect it will be a muggy day in Hell
before you or your ilk will be entrusted with any public office higher
than that of dog catcher in Hungary.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: could they have been saved? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Andras Kornai
> writes:

> Altogether, I'm quite
>optimistic in the sense that I firmly believe Hungarians can not be led
down
>the same path of mass murder a second time.
>
>Andra1s Kornai
>
>

I agree with you, although I wouldn't get complacent about the possibility
that it could happen again.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>(I just mention here, that my original argument was intended
>to explain Sam Stowe how unjust he was when he condemned
>Martin Heidegger for having his membership kept in the
>German nazi party until 1945. Sam himself acknowledged that
>the level of oppression in the Nazi Germany was higher than
>in Hungary during Rakosi. So we may have the idea what would
>have happened to the family of Heidegger in the Nazi Germany,
>if he quits.)
>                                                    Sz. Zoli
>
>

I'll remind you yet again that by the end of the war, Heidegger had been
placed in the Volkssturm as cannon fodder. He doesn't seem to have accrued
much benefit from remaining a member of the Nazi Party at that late date.
I think it's safe to conclude that he did so out of ties of loyalty rather
than from some rational calculation that dropping his party membership
would cause him or his family members harm.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>In our public schools students are being taught how to write suicide
notes.
>They are being shown a variety of methods of creating suicide and given
>recommendations about which are preferable. They are told about and
taught
>to do, indeed, build models of their coffins. The Bible says that those
that
>hate God love death, and that is what all of this is: just death, death
and
>more death.
>--Rev. D. James Kennedy, "A Noble Origin and Destiny"
>
>                                                           (quoted by
Sz.Z)

Hey, whadda ya know? He fills out an interlibrary loan request from
someone else's collection of looney far-right religious propaganda and is
amply rewarded. America -- what a country!
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- I must say, you and the Right Rev. Kennedy are a good match. Never
shall reality come between the two of you.

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Why are you trying to upset Andy?
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Because unlike you, Andy has enough sense to know when I'm pulling his
leg.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am disgusted,hurt and bevildered.You did not include me in you list of
canadians.Well I wish you would correct this,as soon as possible.
Otherwise I feel you hade diarrhea to write such a long and exhausting self
serving God fearing thread.If you where realy tha one you claim to be,most
probaly wouldn;t use such language about people you realy do not know.
I bet you,however I am not a gambler,that the canadian paople you
mentioned,brought up there family just as well as you did(wich I
doubt)except maybe there eyes are wide open,and yours have blinkers on.
Please open your eyes where ever you are o0r been.
QAndy.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Zolika, "Dra'ga" the "ultimate self acclaimed" brain in the universe .....
>At 06:25 PM 01/10/96 -0400, you wrote in answer to >Sam Stowe who wrote to
>to Zsargo Janos as way below:
>>
>Ok!  -   Sam; Janos - I would like to address this post primarily to you two
>- only because the posting was addressed as such.  But also Joe, George Sz,
>F, Andra's, Eva, Marina, Jeliko, Janka, Agnes, Mark, Karoly, Bala'zs,
>Cecilia,  Andy, Martha, Hugh, Zoli F, Bandi  et al ?... where are you)? -
>and no, I am not attempting to collect any type of "collaberative effort"  -
>I only am wondering, where you are all at now!  And, that your read of my
>questions, which remain to be numerous.  Amongst them is "When does a Guest,
>earn the right to become a Host"?  Keeping in mind, that when that happens
>they also assume all the responsibilites of the Host?
>
>Btw... another of my long standing question as to who actually finances the
>"American" education of this "self acclaimed universal brain power, who
>claims that his name is Zoltan Sze'kely" still remains unaddressed.
>(Although, indications by incredibly strong insinuations could hardly be
>missed).
>
>Sorry all ... I guess that I have reached the end of my ultimate tolarence
>in allotting this "Guest of the West" any more slack ... for lack of lingo,
>for lack of culture knowledge ... intelligence (ha?.. did I really say
>that)?  Whoops ... here I go, again, extending undully earned credit??? -
>But .... once, I  *really did* ask God to eventually extend to him the
>required brain power with which to put his teachings to work on a day to day
>basis! - Either the "eventual has not come as of yet, or he did not hear me?
>
>Regards to all (to Zolika Draga - no regards)
>Aniko
>
 Aniko:quite a while ago I suggested to this brain dead religously
missplaced,and definilty not a genius,who does more harm to Hungary,then
anything bad to U.S.
As long as he gets your nerves up and sees the result of his philosophy,wich
is agression,he will continue,the same way as NPA did in the pastr.
By the way I am still waiting for that person to name names as he so often
mentioned.Latly he is stil on the Forum,but who cares.
Too many people already came to the decision that "Zoltan Szekely"is a nut.
So why give him more ammunition?Let him drool in his own saliva,and see how
far he go0es in life.
It is my awnser Aniko,regards:Andy.>
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marks comments are interestin, yet do not completely tell the story(ies)
that have to do with suicide.

Yes you are correct that Hungarians have the highest Suicide rate in the
world!!! Ouch!!

Is it the Hungarian mentality, the despondence of the communist system,
the hopelessness, the drunkennes, et al???  This is a serious problem
that need to be dealt with. Suicide IS FINAL! Means that one gave
up....no matter what happens it cannot be so bad that it has no solution
other than suicide. Help is available. When one thinks that that is the
only alternative then one NEEDS help to view the problem(s) in a
different perspective! ALL people need help at times, some much more than
others. We all get to those periods where everyhting seems to go wrong.

On the same subject, the US Supreme Court has now in front of it 2 cases
by two States that want to in effect prevent the assisted suicide
(murder) from becoming legal anywhere.

Is it not bad enough that partial birth abortions have not been rejected
by the Senate, now we need more murders??? What have we become?? Wake up
America, Canada, UK, Australia!!!

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: In support.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark said:
Wow, Peter, are you neurotic or where to you get this fear that these
listmem-
bers would force anyone into lawlessness?  You are quick on the judgements
(like so many "Christians"), and I thought judging was the right of god
alone!
Do your children like growing up in a glass house? Why can't they be
respected
enough to make their own decisions in life... or should they learn everything
in the dark?  So, if they never hear that there are constructive, positive
homosexuals or that suicide exists, then these phenomena just happily won't
exist?

<<<<<<<
Well Mark, let me tell you something, the issue here is (as it started out)
was that Zoli and I spoke about what is happeneing in our school systems.
I do not care to be tolerant when the system is trying to force the
liberal perspective on my kids. Neither  am I going to sit idly by to see
the the evil minds take over. I do not want my kids to be taught in
school about suicide and other murders, It is wrong period.
if you cannot accept that then you are a big fool.

You can sit in lala land all you want but please do not force me to
accept nor tolerate open disrepect for the ideals that this country was
founded on, violate the laws of this country and that of God.
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Andy:
I guess I am bevildered and disgusted that as a Jew of Hungarian
extraction you do not appear to be upholding the bibles commandments. I
guess if you wish to call them blinders that is your priviledge, but at
least I am focused on trying to alert people of their errors -- by your
definition one should have open ears, eyes, mouths, etc. to be accepted
by you and other (Canadians, liberals, etc.) an according to you one
should just ignore the fact that serious crimes are being committed
and now we are training our children to solve their problems via murder
and suicide, etc. For shame shame.....
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well Mark, You better learn to read!
There is no dictatorship here...you have the right to be whatever you
want and do whatever you want PROVIDED you do not perform murder and
other forbidden sins (violations of the law -- biblical, moral, ethical,
and the laws of the USA [and elswhere I am sure]).

I certainly do not think that George is brilliant at all. He woul;d
rather see people get murdered and run under the communist/socialist logo.
He would like all liberals prefer to take MY money and hand it out to
others (who did not work for it, etc.) according to HIS plans and ideas.
NO THANK YOU!

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Pardon to all!
>
> In my last posting I said Andy brilliantly commented on P. Soltesz's dictator
-
> ship, actually, I think it was George Antony.
>
> SORRY,
> Mark
>
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Command response for Aniko re the text below:

> Ok!  -   Sam; Janos - I would like to address this post primarily to you
two
> - only because the posting was addressed as such.  But also Joe, George
Sz,
> F, Andra's, Eva, Marina, Jeliko, Janka, Agnes, Mark, Karoly, Bala'zs,
> Cecilia,  Andy, Martha, Hugh, Zoli F, Bandi  et al ?... where are you)? -
> and no, I am not attempting to collect any type of "collaberative effort"
 -
> I only am wondering, where you are all at now!  And, that your read of my
> questions, which remain to be numerous.  Amongst them is "When does a
Guest,
> earn the right to become a Host"?  Keeping in mind, that when that
happens
> they also assume all the responsibilites of the Host?

> Btw... another of my long standing question as to who actually finances
the
> "American" education of this "self acclaimed universal brain power, who
> claims that his name is Zoltan Sze'kely" still remains unaddressed.
> (Although, indications by incredibly strong insinuations could hardly be
> missed).

> Sorry all ... I guess that I have reached the end of my ultimate
tolarence
> in allotting this "Guest of the West" any more slack ... for lack of
lingo,
> for lack of culture knowledge ... intelligence (ha?.. did I really say
> that)?  Whoops ... here I go, again, extending undully earned credit??? -
> But .... once, I  *really did* ask God to eventually extend to him the
> required brain power with which to put his teachings to work on a day to
day
> basis! - Either the "eventual has not come as of yet, or he did not hear
me?

> Regards to all (to Zolika Draga - no regards)
> Aniko

Now, please remember the oft forgotten statement regarding the the
difference in one's right to express even many outrageous ideas and
endorsing those ideas. I have had the unfortunate chance to get into highly
polarized discussions in the past with people who are rabidly promoting the
righteousness of an idea, may iy be far left, far right, pro or anti
religious. Over the years I have learned to stay out of those which are
based on faith and not traceable to at least some meager facts. But I also
learned that I have to be tolerant in letting people express themselves. I
disagree that anyone visiting or studying in the US has less right to speak
his/her mind than a native citizen.

Sure I get pissed, when somebody says something blatantly misrepresenting
any of his/her observations or first impressions. But please consider that
we are all victims of our past experiences.

It is also no fun for me to to pull somebodies leg if the person does not
even realizes it. Sometimes one has to learn to take it also, if it is
given out. I was also upset with the quote from the good pastor Kennedy,
but he probably wrote it with belief in what he wrote. While I am very
critical of most (not all) public education in the US, and had six children
(mine, her's) go through US schools, and thus having learned something
about the various school systems, I do not believe, even out of context,
that the quote describes a valid case.

Why is the US a wonderful country can be answered most easily, that in
spite of having the right to express the most outrageous ideas in public,
it makes small adjustments and proceeds along a very reasonable path. It is
not a straight line but the average is in a more reasonable direction than
any  other nation's path. I also consider that it is better for the total
US society, if even the outrageous ideas can be expressed in public and
debated if there are those who disagree, than going underground with those
same ideas.

Most people who get into some of the "ultra" anythings, also sound too
frequently naive in many other aspects of the social, political (and even
technical) events. Sometimes this aspect of a discussion gets even more
"bloodboiling" than others. But we will rarely will have the chance to
learn everything about all aspects of anything. So we should be equally
carefull to not fall on the other side of the horse.

I feel, that it is most important to be comfortable with our actions and
morality. If you can sleep at night without worrying about what you did or
what you said, then you will be all better off. I have also seen far too
much bad being committed in the name of God (or Gods for those who want to
be politically correct). It is not an excuse to hurt other human beings,
just because a political or religious group feels that it is in the
protection of their beliefs.

It is often stated that education is the solution of most of the cited
problems. But education is also often used to indoctrinate people and one
can be brilliant in one field and pretty stupid in another. My
disappointment in many people was the greatest when I found, after building
up respect for some of their ideas,  that in some others they are utterly
wrong.

So, I do believe, that Zoli Szekely has the right to say the things he
says, regardless of being a guest, or who finances his education, or what
his political affiliation is. This belief in his right does not in any way
endorses what he says. In various stages of my life or by various groups, I
was called communist, fascist and just about anything, I do not think that
my basic ideas have changed, so being called names does not bother me at
all, if anything I take some pride in it. What is wrong with being an equal
opportunity piss offer?

As long as I have the right to publicly disagree, I have zero problem with
other's right of saying what they think in public.

Regards, Jeliko.
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:15 AM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>First let me state that I <...>
It does not come as a great surprise, that you would continue to form
ridiculous conclusions and statements in reply to simply being asked to
substantiate a claim; or when asked that you offer respect for others'
beliefs.
>
>Please do not tell my kids (or any kids for that
>matter) that they should know about killing others nor themselves -- it
>is WRONG!
I don't believe that anyone made such a statement.  The statements the I
read and wrote had to do with respect for others' beliefs - something you
know zilch about, but really ought to learn.  Also, I asked for
substantiation by providing facts on the school in question.   As for your
children - that statement is about as ridiculous, as one could possibly
imagine  - it does however, make me feel very sorry for them.

>Some of this may apply to George as well........
>
<snip>
><<<<<<<<<< We are NOT fanatical nor intolerant --
You are right about that!  Based on your writings, you are both insanely and
pittifully fanatical, intolerant, and hypocritical. Furthermore, you are
both a disgrace to your religion and homeland.

Aniko

>
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thank you Lord Aniko the 1st and last!
+ - Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter,

Thanks for your responses.

It is interesting that you have a very unfavorable opinion of social liberals,
but... was Jesus the Christ not also an extremely liberal (revolutionary) in
His biblical society?  He seems to have stepped on the feet of many conserva-
tive authorities during His time...  It is good to have conservatives to keep
society stable and balanced, but it is equally beneficial to have liberals to
keep progress moving.

When you attacked Marina and Aniko this morning I think you mentioned them  as
 not understanding the principles upon which America was founded, but I thought
freedom of speech and separation of Church and State were two major principles.
I really fail to see how someone's respect for other groups and opinions can
be understood as forcing you to change your life.  (Just in tune with our
previous discussion: How do you feel two gay people marrying will affect your
marriage and relationship with your wife?  Anyway that's another time....
another topic.)

I thought Christianity would at least sometimes teach respect and tolerance
(not always superiority, judgements and intolerance), but after some of these
statements on the List, I really don't know. Historically, though, after seeing
 what intolerant, insecure Christians did to other cultures, it leaves a bad
aftertaste.

You often bring up abortion to show your conviction of respecting life. That is
good, and I really respect you in this way. However, how can conservatives talk
about respecting the right to life... and then feel strong convictions to deny
others a right to lead their own life!  It would be funny if a number of babies
saved from abortion turned out to be gay... then the conservatives can spend
the rest of their lives praying on the pavement that they become straight.

Some people feel abortion is bad... but was the situation of outlawed abortion
in Romania a better situation for society? Brazil doesn't thrill me either.

My reading abilities are quite fine, thank you. However, I don't remember
reading anywhere that anyone on the List ever said we should commit suicide...

A visszonti'ra'sra,
Mark
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just a quick note:


Peter,

No, I do not sit in "lala land" and force you to accept disrespectful ideals...
I feel I'm fairly much in reality-land and not at all afraid to enjoy the
differences around me and to encounter different happenings in the world.
I have often asked questions and displayed facts in debates based on
reality-land.

You are free to believe what you want, just don't condemn others before your
god for their beliefs. I would like to know if you feel more secure in your
beliefs if you can sort of criminalize others who are different from you.
That would be a shame, because you seem so well educated.

Tra-la-la-la-la,
Mark
+ - Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I doubt they earn so much because they do quality work. They are simlpy
in a
"good place".



******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *

<<<<<< You ARE correct unfortunatelly. Hungary is still a country of WHO
you know and WHAT you know! So if you are IN then you get a good fat salary
regardless of ones competence! Too bad....
+ - Hungarian Salaries, et al. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> I doubt they earn so much because they do quality work. They are simlpy
> in a
> "good place".
> *       Lajos Monoki         *
> *  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
>
> <<<<<< You ARE correct unfortunatelly. Hungary is still a country of WHO
> you know and WHAT you know! So if you are IN then you get a good fat salary
> regardless of ones competence! Too bad....
>
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
<<SNIP>>
> ....I  would like to know if you feel more secure in your
> beliefs if you can sort of criminalize others who are different from you.

<<<<< I did not criminalize it. It is already a criminal act (murder,
suicide, etc.) that I was refering to. It is crimional under the bible
and ALMOST ALL of the civilized world!!! How does that make ME
criminalize it?? Pray tell me Mark?
Peter
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
<snip>
> It is interesting that you have a very unfavorable opinion of social liberals
,
> but... was Jesus the Christ not also an extremely liberal (revolutionary) in
> His biblical society?  He seems to have stepped on the feet of many conserva-
> tive authorities during His time...  It is good to have conservatives to keep
> society stable and balanced, but it is equally beneficial to have liberals to
> keep progress moving.

<<<<< That is quite interesting, thinking of Jesus as a social liberal --
I am sure that the words' meaning was different then, but nonetheless I
do wish that the collective WE could actually learn from Jesus and others
about how to honor life itself instead of extinguishing it in as many
ways as /humanity can find/ -- that is what I object to.

> When you attacked Marina and Aniko this morning I think you mentioned them  a
s
>  not understanding the principles upon which America was founded, but I
 thought
> freedom of speech and separation of Church and State were two major
 principles.
<<<<< There is the basic misconception that the liberals are trying to
force down our collective troats: Yes that wording in the constitution is
there for ONE thing only...that is there shall be no official
religion/church dictated by the government (like it was in England
(anglicans) and others).  Nevertheless, this country (the USA) was based
on relgion namely that of the judeo-christian religion if you will and
its disassembling thereof is what I object to. I do not want the govt to
pay for religious education, yet I do want ALL children regardless of
their religious convictions to see the other religions in action. That
means have Crosses at Christmas, Star of David at Rosh Hashana, etc.
We can all learn something from each other.

The fundamental issue is this:
If you ask me to pay for it and you want to pend it (control it) then I
have a right to tell you yes or no. if it is your own hard earned money
then you can spend it on whatever you wish, even if you are an atheist!
Just do not ask me to support you out of govt funds (especially if I do
not agree!). Thanx!

> I really fail to see how someone's respect for other groups and opinions can
> be understood as forcing you to change your life.  (Just in tune with our
> previous discussion: How do you feel two gay people marrying will affect your
> marriage and relationship with your wife?  Anyway that's another time....
> another topic.)
<<<<<< I think I answered this direct already tyou mark.

>
> I thought Christianity would at least sometimes teach respect and tolerance
> (not always superiority, judgements and intolerance), but after some of these
> statements on the List, I really don't know. Historically, though, after
 seeing
>  what intolerant, insecure Christians did to other cultures, it leaves a bad
> aftertaste.

<<<<< I want you to understand that I do not condone many of the things
that many of the churches do, be it catholic, protestant, synagouges,
islam, etc.

I also feel and know that we have been led astray by the supposed religious
orders who could not care less and just give ip service.
>
> You often bring up abortion to show your conviction of respecting life. That
 is
> good, and I really respect you in this way. However, how can conservatives
 talk
> about respecting the right to life... and then feel strong convictions to den
y
> others a right to lead their own life!  It would be funny if a number of
 babies
> saved from abortion turned out to be gay... then the conservatives can spend
> the rest of their lives praying on the pavement that they become straight.

<< Funny?!!! Well let them pray for all so that they may find the truth.>
> Some people feel abortion is bad... but was the situation of outlawed abortio
n
> in Romania a better situation for society? Brazil doesn't thrill me either.
<<<<< Good point, I feel that it is wrong to force people to have their
unwanted kids, yet I would rather NOT KILL them, but have them adopted.
How many mothers who had abortions cry in the dark when no-one sees or
hears them, because they know inside that they have lost something
precious.
Let's ask those who have had them.  Any takers???
One more point -- which I have stated earlier -- if a woman really wants
to have an abortion, I would advise her not to (explain the options), yet
I could not stop her. I do not want my tax money to support her to kill
her babay!  Maybe we as a society have failed to teach about prevention.
I think the Catholic chucrh is wrong  on this pt.
Peter
+ - Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter Soltesz writes:

> <<<<<< You ARE correct unfortunatelly. Hungary is still a country of WHO
> you know and WHAT you know! So if you are IN then you get a good fat
salary
> regardless of ones competence! Too bad....

That would not be so bad, but I think the "WHAT you know" is often ignored.
While partly turning it sideways, do not underestimate the need for "WHO
you know or more appropriately WHO knows you. I consider giving tasks to
people for whom I know that they are technically competent and do good work
than to unknowns regardless of how brilliant they think they are (or maybe
are). I do not regret doing that either. Why should it be any different?

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: could they have been saved? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>In article >, Andras Kornai
> writes:
>
>> Altogether, I'm quite
>>optimistic in the sense that I firmly believe Hungarians can not be led
>down
>>the same path of mass murder a second time.
>>
>>Andra1s Kornai
>>
>>
>
>I agree with you, although I wouldn't get complacent about the possibility
>that it could happen again.
>Sam Stowe
>
>"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
>even for a short time, must necessarily confine
>himself to private life and leave politics alone."
>-- Plato, "Apology"
>
>Not in our lifetime,never again.
Andy.
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zolyan Szekely writes:


> You are right, members of Rakosi's party, or at least many
> of them, would not deserve our sympathy. But think also
> about the few (how few they were?) who were idealistic
> in their expectations toward the "communistic future", the
> people who became members because they truly believed in
> a bright future FOR THE COUNTRY not only for themselves.
> Some people had these idealistic views and it would be too
> misleading to condemn all of them. (Think about Nagy Laszlo,
> the poet, or Nagy Imre himself, among many others.)

I have some, limited, sympathy for folks who had seen that their earlier
ideas were wrong and publicly changed their opinions (most far too late)
but still very little sympathy toward those who made a religion out of
communism and believed everything that was written or said. Regardless of
how and why, I cannot imagine and describe anyone as intelligent who lived
through the Stalinist and Rakosi purges and maintained leadership status
in the communist hierarchy in Hungary.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

See bottom for reply:


> On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
> <<SNIP>>
> > ....I  would like to know if you feel more secure in your
> > beliefs if you can sort of criminalize others who are different from you.
>
> <<<<< I did not criminalize it. It is already a criminal act (murder,
> suicide, etc.) that I was refering to. It is crimional under the bible
> and ALMOST ALL of the civilized world!!! How does that make ME
> criminalize it?? Pray tell me Mark?
> Peter

Mr. Soltesz,

Semmitse'g! The answer is easy:

For specifics, all you really have to do is reread your postings on this topic.
Your kindness and willingness to listen to Marina and Aniko and not put them
 down is evident.

Criminalize does not ony mean to put in jail, it also means to brand someone
negatively.
Someone criticizes religious arrogance and suddenly they are no longer god-
fearing people and are an affront to god and country (sound like MacCarthyism
..).  [Anyway, in many instances, you are correct: Aniko and Marina do not
seem to be god-FEARING people.   ... but perhaps rather god-LOVING people.
Did they advocate murder? Did they tell others to commit suicide? Why are they
suddenly a dangerous influence to your children?? The Bible has enough contra-
dictions in it... it can't even decide which of the two differing versions of
its creation myth to accept... why should it be such a social meter? Not even
the Hassids can do it.

You keep mentioning biblical society, but as I stated earlier, should we
have slavery and incest as it appears in the Bible? When I speak of slavery,
I am not speaking of the Jews' slavery in Egypt, but of the institution where
slaves are told to be good and masters kind. Does the Old Testament talk of
equality of humans? What do you plan to *pick and choose* to make this model
biblical society??

Also, while I would try to deter someone from committing a suicide, I sure
would not call them a sinner if they did it.  I have enough trouble looking
after my own life, I don't know why I'd want to JUDGE someone else's!

Btw: Earlier you mentioned the orthodox Jews didn't get sick when others did
bec. they followed biblical dietary law.  Well, maybe its because they happened
to have more garlic in their diet. Maybe Italians and Portuguese would have
faired just as well.

As was discussed a few weeks ago: How do you define a civilized world? I don't
even think our Indo-European world has always lived up to that adjective.

I loved the statement by Jeliko earlier today that we are prisoners of our
past experiences.

I also love this freedom to exchange such varying views.
Thank you,
Mark H
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:
>
>>Why are you trying to upset Andy?
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>>
>>
>
>Because unlike you, Andy has enough sense to know when I'm pulling his
>leg.
>Sam Stowe
>
>"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
>even for a short time, must necessarily confine
>himself to private life and leave politics alone."
>-- Plato, "Apology"
>
>Sam that is enough.My leg is out of place already.Besides I will need a hip
replacement,I just have to wait for a year.Social medicine,but I have to pay
only $bucks for prescition,and aspirin is helping.
Don't knok social medicine.Blame the politicians,who do not want the doctors
to make monney,and they do not pay back the years of scooling we have given
them.
Anyway there is no american insurance company to tell when we have to get
out from the hospital,only the governement is closing them down.
I hope I made your day now.
Andy.
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Dear Andy:
>I guess I am bevildered and disgusted that as a Jew of Hungarian
>extraction you do not appear to be upholding the bibles commandments. I
>guess if you wish to call them blinders that is your priviledge, but at
>least I am focused on trying to alert people of their errors -- by your
>definition one should have open ears, eyes, mouths, etc. to be accepted
>by you and other (Canadians, liberals, etc.) an according to you one
>should just ignore the fact that serious crimes are being committed
>and now we are training our children to solve their problems via murder
>and suicide, etc. For shame shame.....
>
>your bevilderment and digust can turn against youir own thoughts.Who is
teaching our children the stuff you mention.
I know I or we brought up our Son without any racist,or any other hate feelings
.
We taught him that all the people are people,they all get educated and
select there own fate.Regardless in what religion you belive in.That I was
born a Jew,and suffered for it,I am not religous,and my morals are not based
on religion,but being a human being.
Sorry if you can not understand this and in the future,please my religion
out of the discussion,just for the reason,sinve I am not discussing
religions here,except you try to do it.
If you teach your kids to be human beings they will grow up valuable
citisens of this world.
Shalom:Andy.
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I really did not intend to stir your emotions by
quoting Father Kennedy (a good name for an American,
anyway...). He is my favourite Sunday morning tv
preacher, so he must not be so bad if the national
television carries his program every week-end.

He showed a segment of a 'public school education'
event, taped on video. 10-12 years old girls were
'educated' about oral sex by a liberal looking young
woman wearing leather jacket. As we had to learn it,
the parent of these girls were not informed about
what kind of 'public education' was offered to their
dear daughters.

I definitely MEAN that America is amazing, because
you are free to express your discontent. That's all
for now. Cheer up, please, the life is short. Here
is my next quote.
                                         (Sz. Zoli)

> Modern public education is the most dangerous single force in a child's
> life: religiously, sexually, economically, patriotically and physically.
> --Rev. Tim LaHaye, (Dave Marsh, 50 Ways to Fight Censorship)
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:19 PM 10/2/96 -0400, "Peter A. Soltesz" > wrote:

>Well Mark, You better learn to read!
>There is no dictatorship here...you have the right to be whatever you
>want and do whatever you want PROVIDED you do not perform murder and
>other forbidden sins (violations of the law -- biblical, moral, ethical,
>and the laws of the USA [and elswhere I am sure]).
>
>I certainly do not think that George is brilliant at all. He woul;d
>rather see people get murdered and run under the communist/socialist logo.
>He would like all liberals prefer to take MY money and hand it out to
>others (who did not work for it, etc.) according to HIS plans and ideas.
>NO THANK YOU!

Peter, you write any more posts like this one and I'm going to pee myself
laughing.  Get a hold of yourself, man!

Joe Szalai
+ - You are right Andy...I will leave your religion out of (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am sure that you and others try to bring their children up with
whatever moral values they have -- the best being there are good and bad
in every race, color, creed, religion, etc. The difficulty is getting
them to understand that.

As far as the schools are concned...they are placing special instuctions
in the syllabus to talk about things that I want to talk about at my own
time NOT when the school system feels it is their duty!

The religion has to do with the basics of how this country was founded.
It may surprise many bothe hereand in Canada, that the USA was founded
by very religious men. Their only concern was that separation of church
and state -- clearly meaning: no government endorsed/enforced religion as
it was in the old England.

One needs to peridically go back and re-study and analyze the basics or
foundations to make sure that WE have not erred or gone astray form the
original meaning, whether it is the bible, the constitution, etc.

I am awaiting the day when 2 + 2 does not equal four because it is correctly
correct.  It is similar to the trend that is procured by liberals in this
country
that why do we not reduce the value of a college educatiopn (or education
in general) because there are many who fail to live up to the standards.
So let them all into college, perhaps even give them a PhD so they can
get better jobs!!!!! _ Silly as this sounds, that is exactly what is
happening and in the long run we will all suffer.

Peter
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A.Kornai wrote:

>write counter-testimonials. The whole issue, could they have been saved, is
>very hard to decide. Looking at the number of the dead one feels saving more
>should have been possible, but all this is very hard to speculate about.

I agree and not only hard to speculate about it but also senseless. Even if
one could come up with a possible solution that would be an ideal case.
It would have required probable far more diplomatic, political abilities,
flexibility, fast decission-making than the contemporary hungarian elite had.
Even if they had the intention they would have probably failed to do the job.
 They were not better or worse than a dozen of similar governments all around
the world, just simple encountered a situation that they could not handle.

Furthermore why to talk about the intention or 'enthusiasm' of the policemen
and gendarmes. Such things cannot be measured and objectivly discussed (you
just mentioned the biased sample). Does it really matters if one proves the
 'good-will' or the 'humanity' of those policemen? Does it lessen the pain of
those who lost relatives? And if they were inhuman what conclusion you
can draw? How many of those policemen really knew what was going to happen
with the deported jews (this of course not applies for those who carry out
the 'dunaba loves' or the dead march to west)? Did their inhumanity really
mean deadly hatress of the jews? Only the facts count, like the hungarian
 authorities was involved in the deportations regardless of their average
 'humanity', or the hungarian jews were basicly in safety untill 1944
regardless the jewish laws. This all stuff about the details is good only
to cause more pains to the survivors.
(And it seems there are quite a few on this list.)

J.Zs
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Sam Stowe to Zsargo Janos:
>
>> Like it or not, your generation of Hungarians has a lot of positive things
>> to learn from the U.S. (and Canada, too, for that matter), things that can
>> help Hungary overcome the suffering it has endured during this century and
>> make sure it never inflicts such misery on itself again.
>
>It sounds like Big Brother tries to encourage the little one.
>No, sir, Hungary did not inflicted miseries on itself. The Big
>Brother did it. In Trianon the Antant was the Big Brother,
>after this the Third Empire, and later the Russian. (Who knows,
>maybe the United States of America wants to be the next one?)
>
>May God save us from Big Brothers forever!            Sz. Zoli
>

And from ones like Zoli!
+ - Re: Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Perhaps one needs to figure out how to re adjust the salary scales.
>Pray tell me why a head of department should not make $56K?
>For that matter what about a lawyer making only 300kHUF $24K annually?

It's OK to make $56K in USA or Canada. But in Hungary ??? Here an average
state-owned factory's director erans less than quarter of that, average
salary is about $2500 a year (not month!!).

>If you do want qaulity work then they need to be paid for. Of course
>I disagree with unskilled labor getting that kind of salary in HU.
>They should have a decent living wage though!
>Peter Soltesz

I doubt they earn so much because they do quality work. They are simlpy in a
"good place".



******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
           Edgar Allan Poe

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