Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
2 Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (Version: 1.10, Last (mind)  1453 sor     (cikkei)
3 blessings from different spiritual traditions (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: STANCULESCU IS A GUN RUNNER (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
5 Does anybody know me ??? :) :) :) Ancestral search (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: "Great" Moravia" (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: "Great" Moravia" (mind)  168 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Voice of REAL Laos - Press Release I (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: STANCULESCU IS A GUN RUNNER (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Voice of REAL Laos (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Bela Kun (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


If this hasn't been mentioned yet:

Korean: Saranghae

Japanese: Suki desu, or dai suki desu
	  Some people use aishiteru
+ - Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (Version: 1.10, Last (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1995/11/22
Version: 1.10
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

	Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle
2.3  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!



 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is primarily
concerned with resources freely available netwide.


Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.


Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).


Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further


Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).


Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.


Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>.  It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived 
by HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). These groups
are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS') and they
are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;.

HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar
and hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.


Subject: 1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname.  Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address.  For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY.  You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software.  For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.


Subject: 1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

 <mailto:> is a group providing rapid communication
mainly among those living in the USA with interests in Hungarian
issues (it has been created to serve the community mainly at the
University of Maryland and in its vicinity). Subscribe by
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY . (Notice that this is distinct
from the older LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus
- 'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one!)




Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.


Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.


Subject: 2.3  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).



 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.


Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a Yahoo-like hierarchical
database of all Hungarian online content of the World. Currently it
has links in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>;. The Hungary-Online archive is
available from <http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.jvnc.net/~kerekes/>;.

 There are some nice pictures from Hungary at 


Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical


Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.



 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs


 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.


Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             



 This information is also available on

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>


Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).


Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest

Members of the Szeged University Association

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs

University of Veszprem

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet


Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS


Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be


Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents


Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see, containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.


Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters: No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'. The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see " denotes umlaut! The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.) Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.


Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.


 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity. PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense. ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>. Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.


Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.] [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es. HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk


   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:


where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal. Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.


Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see


Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal ) MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically. Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.


Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4). ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files. etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform. hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>. drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source code for conversion between RTF (Rich
Text Format), character sets ISO 8859/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin 2)
and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically. The outbound format can't be RTF. Supported platforms:
VMS, MS-DOS, & possibly UNIX. hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated. MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see,
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided. ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above. hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.


Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP



(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors are the responsibility of
Zoli - who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just
comments readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.


Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists).  The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!
+ - blessings from different spiritual traditions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm gathering a database of blessings/holy sayings/mantras from as many
spiritual traditions/religions as possible. Any sort of blessing is
appropriate. If interested, would you please provide the following:

1. the untranslated blessing, spelled out as accurately as possible, with
explanation of pronunciation (accents and diacritics as possible)

2. the meaning of the blessing in English

3. the religion/spiritual tradition from which the blessing comes

4. the country from which the blessing comes

5. the language in which the untranslated blessing is written

Anything goes, from major spiritual traditions to tribal blessings of any sort
An example would be:

1. Darood bar shmaw (my apologies to any Farsi speakers reading this;
correction would be most appreciated). Accents on "rood" and "maw"

2. God be with you

3. religious tradition unknown to me. Islam? Zoroastrianism? Other?

4. Iran

5. Farsi

Thank you very much for your input. Please send responses via e-mail to
If you want to respond in the newsgroup where you saw this message, please
trim down the postings list since there are a LARGE number of
crosspostings on this message.
+ - Re: STANCULESCU IS A GUN RUNNER (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, Wally Keeler was raving on his 
obsession with little Stan:

>Only the handful of honest, the clear-eyed, the poets, artists, dissidents,
>visionaries, describe things as they are...

Yea, like the artist and poet Nero that burned down Rome... probably for

And Oali concedes:

>The artist, Adolf Hitler, wished to rid Germany of the "scourge of subhuman
>predators" in a "final solution."

>     "General Stanculescu has been "wined and dined in London by
>the City's bankers and been the guest of the British armaments
>industry at the Farnborough air show.

Sour grapes ! You should have pursued a career within the Canadian
military, and should you have had what it takes, you would have made
rank and been wined & dined in London as well !

>real world title: GUN RUNNER
>              !!!!STANCULESCU IS A GUN RUNNER!!!!

AHA ! Here I got you by your measley little balls ! This is where
I wanted you !
If you had any idea of what and WHOM you are ranting about, you would
know that this SOB is a HALFBREAD. His mama is a Gypsy, darker than
sin.  Thus it must be that he inherited the shady part of his character
from the Gypsies !  When you go to Bucharest, I am sure you will happily
suck face with the fellow.

>Stanculescu's products are designed to maximize the spilling of blood while
> minimizing the damage to property through better, selective targeting.

It is called, catering to customer demand !

>Stanculescu's products are designed to maximize the spilling of blood while
>simultaneously maximizing profits for himself and his financier followers.

One of the many laws of acquisition !

>Stanculescu's products are designed to maximize the spilling of blood.

Kill, kill, kill, blood makes the grass grow...
              -   quote from a US Army song  -

>Stanculescu's products have murdered more people around the world than all
>the Gypsies have alleged to have murdered in Romania.

You are a sociopath unable to understand societal norms.

>When a Gypsy murders someone, it is with a handheld weapon, usually a
>knife. These Gypsies kills face to face.

Oh yesss, the poetry of murder....   and a my suggested remedy...

            'for these that you should hesitate in calling human
             hanging is dereliction of justice, burning at the
             stake too quick, crucifixion is too kind, impalement
             too gentle. One by one they must be slowly flayed, while
             loudly screaming their lies and sins. But even this is
             only the first step, since their evil ways require
             curing of the stinking husk in salt...'

                                 -   from The Book of Vlad  -

>Stanculescu's supporters (Mark Cristian) are unable to face this

Wrong ! If anything, he is competition.

>Stanculescu's financiers profit from death and destruction.

So do the bankers that invited him to London.

>Poets, artists, etc profit from life and creativity.

True, but don't let that swell your head. Minstrels, fools and
buffoons are there to amuse the castelan and his warriors.

m. cristian
+ - Does anybody know me ??? :) :) :) Ancestral search (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sorry if this is not an appropriat topic.  I'm looking for relatives
or anything relating to the Rattai family and where we're from.

If any would be kind enough to contact me, please mail to:


Kevin Rattai
+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Some more for you:

German: Ich Liebe Dich

Serbian/Croatian: Ja Te Volim

Mandarin: Wa ai ni

+ - Re: "Great" Moravia" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Tony Pace) wrote:

>If Bowlus's river Mures ( as proposed to have been Morava) constituted
>a part of the "great" Moravia, then Salzburg's salt embargo, which was
>imposed against "great" Moravia would not have made much sense, since
>there were salt mines east of the Tisa (in the region of the Mures),
>which were held by the Bulgarians at the time of the embargo.

The salt embargo, as mentioned by the Regensburg version of the
Annales Fuldenses(entry 891), was part of Arnulf's design of the 892
campaign  against Sventopolk. You have omitted to take in
consideration the the very important detail that Arnulf sent a mission
to the Bulgars, to persuade the khan to refuse salt to the Moravians:

"Thence he [i.e., Arnulf] sent in September envoys bearing gifts to
the Bulgars and their king Laodomir for the purpose of renewing the
earlier peace, and he petitioned them not to sell salt to the

Therefore, only if Sventopolk's Moravia was in Southeastern Pannonia
the salt embargo would have had effect,  since Arnulf controlled,
directly or indirectly, the three main routes for transporting salt
there: (1)via Ptuj, for the Salzburg source,  (2)river Mures for the
eastern Carpathians sources, and (3) the Julian Alps passes for the
Adriatic salt pans.

Otherwise, what would have prevented the alleged north Moravians from
getting their salt form sources in southern Poland, in the vicinity of


Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: "Great" Moravia" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"In article >,  
" (Igor GAZDIK) wrote:

">>as far as i can tell 870 precedes both 871 and 860.

    this is an interesting lapsus, to say the least...

">Well, I'm not so sure that 870 precedes 860, but if you
">insist... As a matter of fact, 456 also precedes 890
">but there is no reason to believe that Zwentibald was
">that old, right? Zwentibald's baptismal was  designed
">to establish a bond of fictive kinship between his
">father, Arnulf of Carinthia, and Duke Sventopolk. Since
">in 871, in Regensburg, Sventopolk successfully defended
">himself against charges of treason, the event was
">speculatively correlated with Zwentibald's baptismal.
">Using a similar reasoning, other historians preferred
">to associate Zwentibald's baptismal with the 876 pace
">between Arnulf and Sventopolk. Can you explain what's
">the reasoning behind your dating (i.e., 870)?   

     the dating i am using is taken either from literature, or
     from the inscriptions i have seen in situ.   i cannot
     explain anything else, because i am not an expert in this

">>anything wraong???
">Not much, just a couple of things. You said that
">Zwentibald "was born to king arnulf, later emperor of
">germany."  Your claim is incorrect because:
">1.Arnulf of Carinthia was not yet "king arnulf" in 870, neither in
">     871, nor in 876, and

     no objections.   i call him king, beause other people title him that 

"">2.Arnulf was never emperor of Germany

     that's what my notes say, but, again, see above.
"">>>I really don't understand why "the birth" was such "a
"">>>significant link" between countries that were not
"">>>even in existence at that moment.
">>i am referring to the countries in existence today,
">>not at that time.
">Exactly my point. Why the birth of Arnulf's bastard

     i am not sure if this is an appropriate "title".   someone
     may be a bastard, but is still a human being.   besides, in
     this case it was a matter of planned parenthood, as far as 
     i have been able to find out.   arnulf needed a son and he
     apparently could not get one the "official" way.

">"represents a significant link between [present-day]
">slovakia, germany, holand, belgium and france?" Since
">your first reason was that "1. his mother [...] was 
">"supplied" bu king svatopluk,"  and the next two were also without
">relevance, I asked for further clarifications.   

     because one  of well established and proved
     s.c. gazdik's theorems states that there are more things that 
     unite peoples rather than  divide them.

">>>Godfathership was one of the means for establishing
">>>bonds of friendship which would, eventually, lead to
">>>greater political stability. In this case, the bond
">>>was intended between Arnulf of Carinthia,  the
">>>perfect of the southeastern marches, and Sventopolk,
">>you are giving an answer to your own question
">Actually, that wasn't "an answer," just my loudly
">expressed perplexity. I see no connection whatsoever
">between the above fictive kinship and present-day
">Slovakia, Holland, Belgium, or any of the other
">countries you mentioned.  

     most likely because kinship and connection are two different things.
     i was talking about the latter. 

">>i must admit that it's the first time i read about a
">>simon de keza,
">Well, at least I'm glad you didn't say I invented 
">him :-). Keza is the author of Gesta Hungarorum and
">some may think that the Arpadian tradition has significant 
">relevance for the controversy surrounding  Great Moravia's location.  

     no kidding!!!   you are using hungarian sources as authority on
     matters historic???

">>but do not see any significant contradiction here,
">>either. don't forget that at the time of great
">>moravia, bulgaria was located where today's  serbia
">>is and included the lowlands of the present roumania,
">>located north and east of the danube.
">Since Moesia never included the land of the present-day
">Slovakia, nor was norther Moravia ever part of Bulgaria,
">it follows that Great Moravia was nowhere near present-
">day Slovakia. 

     this is really exciting.   did the moesia exist in reality,
     or only in keza's fantasy?   i have always thoufht that my
     familiarity with the balkans was pretty good, so i do not know
     where to put this atlantis-like country.   you have mentioned
     belgrade in one of your postings.   but belgrade came about mainly
     as a consequence of the turkish invasions, in an area that          
     originally consisted of marshes.   it is nowhere so old as serbia, 
     not to mention bulgaria.   besides, ss cyrillus and methodios were  
     sort of "globetrotters of their time.   they lived in bulgaria, at  
     lake okhrid (at that time bulgaria, nowadays serbia, rome, etc...   

#>>the vatican is entitled to issue verdicts on th
">>religious dogma. however, it also is a depository of
">>documents of immense historical value.
">I don't recall anybody denying this. Excerpts from 9th
">century papal letters were often presented during this
">discussion. Without exception, all of them indicated
">that Methodius' Moravia was in southeast Pannonia and
">Illyria, not in present-day Slovakia.

    did anybody live in those parts at that time?   
    where did the g-m castles in slovakia come from?  fake?

">>the second, and equally unquestionable source of
">>information are the archaeological excavations, 
">>the sites of which you can find in copious numbers in
">>slovakia, moravian slovakia, 
">To the best of my knowledge no archaeological artifact
">links present-day Slovakia to megale Moravia.  

   i am not questioning the first part of this statement

">>>Oh, I see, you think this topic is about religion,
">>sorry to disappoint you, but you are wrong again. i am
">>interested in slovacica.  
">Do you think your interest in Slovakia would be somehow
">diminished just because megale Moravia was never there?

     it certainly was somewhere where people lived and remember it.   
     so what is it you want to prove?
+ - Re: Voice of REAL Laos - Press Release I (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Voice of REAL Laos -  Press Release I
Organization: Department of Electrical Engineering, Texas A&M University

  The following article was crossposted to all of 


  Make sure you trim the newsgroups line if you choose to follow up to it.


In article , Ben Clipboard  wrote:
 	Thongsouk’s letter of 12 July 1993 from Sop Hao Prison No. 7 at the
Vietnamese border, secretly received, stated that he and two others
co-prisoners of conscience were in good spirits and still believed in the
final victory of democracy in Laos.

	"...The Viet servants were very barbaric.  They threatened and tortured us
continually, tying our hands and arms around out necks.  We were condemned
to 14 years of imprisonment and it was demanded that we sigh a submission
act of subversion which we refused.  They ordered Lieutenant Thonvang to
subject us to all kinds of torture.  But, we have survived in spite of these
trials.  After the defeat of the Khmer Communists at the election, they
tried to be lenient with us, but we knew that their intention of maintaining
the status quo was to preserve the dictatorial power, and to do so they had
to destroy freedom lovers in one form or another.

	As this moment the global situation offers us the best opportunity to act.
If we fail to grab it we will be sorry for life. We must further democracy
at any price.  It is quite noble to be imprisoned in place of freedom
fighters.  Do I have reasons to be proud of my contribution to strive for
the democratisation of Laos?  The victory is at the point of horizon.

	The Prison No. 7 is a death camp where a number of ministers and high
ranking officers of the old regime have died with their legs and hand tied
in dark and gloomy prisons.  They (the Communists) have ended many
prisoners’ lives with the cruel blow of rifle butts on their victim’s neck.

	A number of Lao students studying at Phu Tho, Vietnam who staged a strike
because they were not given enough food, were alleged to have mounted a
‘coup d’etat’ and arrested.  They were immediately transported to this
torturous cam, all dying by the end of 1980.

	The arrest was made on a simple allegation, clearly a grave violation of
human rights.  I would like you to write a report to the Human Rights
Commission of the UN, Amnesty International and to other international
organisations to exert pressure on the Lao PDR to release us without
condition, as we submitted a project on the constitution that was not a
crime nor a violation.  But to condemn an innocent person like me to 14
years of imprisonment was a real offence to all men who love justice..."

	Actually, we have received news from the wives of the freedom fighters
saying that Thongsouk had been gravely ill with diabetes and other diseases.
He has been left to die without any basic medical care.  Therefore, today we
appeal to the Human Rights Commission of the UN, to Amnesty International in
London and to other free world governments which have diplomatic
representation in Laos to ask the dictatorial government of Laos to allow
the Red Cross to visit the sick and imprisoned freedom fighters.  In
particular, we call for economic pressure on the dictatorial government to
release the abovementioned fighters without condition.

2nd December, 1995
+ - Re: STANCULESCU IS A GUN RUNNER (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hermes > wrote:
>>     "General Stanculescu has been "wined and dined in London by
>>the City's bankers and been the guest of the British armaments
>>industry at the Farnborough air show.
>Sour grapes ! You should have pursued a career within the Canadian
>military, and should you have had what it takes, you would have made
>rank and been wined & dined in London as well !

Boys, what are we talking about??

You mean Stanculescu, MR. STANCULESCU that is, pursued a career with the 
Canadian military?  Wow!!!

Who is Stanculescu?
+ - Re: Voice of REAL Laos (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following crosspost was sent to all of 


  Make sure you trim the Newsgroups: line if you choose to followup to it.


In article >, Ben Clipboard > wrote:
>                                           Communiqué
>We Lao Australians have gathered here today in front of the Embassy of Lao
>PDR in Canberra to protest and condemn the Communist regime for making Laos
>a colony of Vietnam through the Friendship Treaty, signed on the 18th July,
>1977.  We condemn the 2nd December, the day that the repressive Regime was
>created, which for all Lao People meant a doom’s day.
>For more than 20 years now, 90% of Lao people have lived with no future, no
>freedom and with restricted civil rights.  Those brave enough to protest
>have been arrested, imprisoned, tortured and left to die without any medial
>care - these included ex-vice ministers Thongsouk Saysangkhi, Rasmy
>Khamphoui, Feng Sackchittaphong and Khambou Phimmasenh. 
>Under the Communist dictatorship, Laos has become one of the poorest
>countries in the world.  Only 20% of the national budget is directed towards
>the social sector.  This is also the case with foreign aid from donor
>governments, according to the head of a major UN agency.
>Laos is a country where the rate of infant mortality is alarmingly high - at
>least 125 out of every 1,000.  The head of United Nations confirmed in July
>1995 that "there was really no functioning health care system".
>As a result, today Lao people in Germany, France, USA and Australia have
>united to strive for a noble cause - the right for our brothers and sisters
>in Laos to exercise civil rights and enjoy freedom.  We also call upon all
>righteous governments of the free world to use economic pressure on the
>current Lao dictators to give freedom back to the Lao people.  We believe it
>is imperative that all prisoners of conscience are immediately free and the
>construction of the Namtheun Dam II project halted, as it will devastate our
>precious forest and wildlife heritage.
>2nd December, 1995 
+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, gebruiker computerzaal Farmacie <studpc@
stud.far.ruu.nl> writes:
|> >" I love you" : Ana Ouhibboek (arabic) 
Maybe the above is a French pronounciation ;)
but it is actually --> Ana Uhibbuk (arabic)
+ - Re: Bela Kun (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  ()

> Alexander N. Bossy > wrote:
> > 
> >Austria-Hungary was one of the Great Powers.  Other Great Powers (France,
> >Britian, America) forced her to relinguish those of her provinces where the
> >majority wished independence.  Great Britain was a Great Power.  Other
> >Great Powers (France, and to a lesser extent, Spain) forced her to
> >relinguish those of her provinces where the majority wished independence. 
> >The analogy is much more relevant than you wish to admit. 
> Not really.  Which great power was forced to relinquish her provinces in
> 1920?  For France, it took upto the 60s to relinquish Algeria, for
> instance.  In 1920, only the losers lost territory (Germany and
> Hungary).  Of course, the big colonial powers eventually lost their
> colonies not because other powers forced them, but the colonial subjects
> themselves through protracted wars of liberation or passive resistance.
> This was hardly the case in the 1918-1920 "losses".

So there had been no protracted resistance on the part of romanians in
the Austro-Hungarian empire? Does the Memorandist movement of 1871 ring
a bell?
> The only additional comment I have about your constant stressing of
> Romanian majority in Transylvania is that in 1920 there were plenty of
> Hungarian majority areas included in the chunk that was given to
> Romania.  And I don't mean the remote Szekely/Secui areas, but those
> that were right outside of the new border.  So if really the majority
> was the only criterion, the borders could have been drawn differently
> than they were.

Oh, please provide a 'legitimate map' that would be rational and defensible.
I think we can unbinhex a gif or jpg. 

> Joe