Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 817
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-10-15
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
2 THE REST OF THE STORY (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
3 IS THIS FOR REAL ? (mind)  391 sor     (cikkei)
4 Eminescu- Is this for Real ? (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Amazing America (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Amazing America/Peter the Amazing I (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Logic, Church, and State (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Logic, Church, and State (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: the Right & abortion (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: P.Soltesz or C'Sermon from the mount (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
16 The 1700s (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: The 1700s (mind)  122 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: P.Soltesz or C'Sermon from the mount (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Suicide (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: The 1700s (mind)  117 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Suicide (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Logic, Church, and State (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: The 1700s (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: The 1700s (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Autumn Leaves (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: the Right & abortion (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Suicide (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: the Right & abortion (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Suicide in Hungary (Balogh the hypocrite) (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:42 AM 13/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Someone on this list raised the possibility that the Hungarian propensity to
>commit suicide might in some way be connected to low self-esteem and a
>feeling of helplessness in the midst of adverse historical events.  Reading
>recent (and earlier) postings penned by Eva Balogh, I suddenly realized that
>in her person we may have the incarnation of the self-loathing and perceived
>inferiority that some attribute to the Hungarian psyche.  Eva rarely misses a
>chance to find fault with and denigrate the national character, historical
>figures, most anythig ever accomplished by Hungary or Hungarians.  Her
>attitude may actually harm her credibility by raising the question in the
>reader: "How can I take seriously anything written by a member of such a
>'stupid, backward, cowardly, racist' etc. (Eva's oft-used adjectives) tribe?"
>
>Is there a psychologist out there who could comment on this?
>
>Ferenc
Since you are obviously, by choice, a part of this "tribe" why not start by
offering an answer to your own question?  Surely, you don't need the help of
any psychologist?

Secondly - Are words not wonderful?  Regardless of whom they were
written/spoken by, when taken out of their original context, can
successfully be utilized by *any/all* other(s), as a means to their own end.
Unclear to me, remains "your own end".  Crystal clear is that words have
been cleverly taken out of context.
Regards,
Aniko
+ - THE REST OF THE STORY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A Megtorlas napjai c. kvnyve angolul


Riszletek a kvnyvbul: Kanizsa || Csurog

Emelj|k fel szavunkat a tvrinelmi igazsag neviben!

Tvbb mint vtven ivvel a masodik vilaghaborz befejezise utan, a vajdasagi
magyarok elleni szerb virengzisek
aldozatairsl mig mindig nem vesz tudomast a vilag.
A nyugat szemaben mig mindig b{nvs nip vagyunk. Kedves Honfitarsunk! Az
artatlan halottainknak kijars
vigtisztessig jeli|l is a tvrtinelmi igazsag neviben k|ldj|k el ezt a
kvnyvet az angol politikusoknak,
vezetuknek is tvrtiniszeknek.
Legyen ott ez a tvrtinelmi dokumentum minden kvnyvtarban bizonymtikul
arra, hogy az a tvbb mint 20,000
magyar akit Banatban is Bacskaban a haborz befejezise utan bmrssagi
eljaras is tvrvinyes mtilet nilk|l
vigeztek ki a szerb nacionalistak is Tits partizanjai -azok artatlan
aldozatok.
Vajdasagban, minden olyan helysigben ahol nagyobb szamban ilnek
magyarok, van tvmegsmr.
A magyar tvrtinelmi igazsag neviben rendelje meg is terjessze ezt az
angol nyelv{ tvrtinelmi dokumentumot.
Ezt a magyarok helyett senki nem fogja megtenni a mi irdek|nkben.
Matuska Marton: Retaliation c. kvnyve megrendelhetu:
Hungarian Human Rights Monitor
Magyar Emberi Jogok Monitora
113 waniska Ave, Toronto, ON., Canada, M8Y 1R5
Tel/Fax:(416) 259-0877
A kvnyv ara $10.00 postakvltsiggel is adsval egy|tt.

--------------------------


Is this for real ?  If it is then go for it, this a SUBJECT,


THE REST OF THE STORY !



Albert ALBU
+ - IS THIS FOR REAL ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This Net is keep bringing up new nightmares.
And, if this is for real, then Mr. Horn and what he is standing for is a
fake ?

Are these guys the same nation? or is this some of Eva B's tribes.


Albert Albu

-----------------------------

Fvlasatlan filmzlt

Matuska Marton Megtorlas cmm{ kvnyve megjelent angol is
francia fordmtasban - Beszilgetis a szerzuvel

A megtorlas napjai megjelenisekor sriasi hatast gyakorolt a
felfogasunkra, mgy elig termiszetesnek t{nik,
hogy a gondolatot tovabb, nemzetkvzi szintre kell vinni. Zgy
irzem, ennek a felismerisnek a megvalssulasa,
hogy a kvnyv Megtorlas cmmmel megjelent angolul is franciaul
is. Figyelnek-e majd az angolok is a franciak
arra, amit ez a kvnyv tartalmaz sorsunkrsl?

- Ez nem olyan kvnyv, amelynek a puszta kvnyvsikeriirt
kellene, hogy az ember |gykvdjvn. Egiszen masrsl van szs.
Pontosan
arrsl, hogy az angolok, franciak is masok odafigyelnek-e.
Biztos, hogy nem figyelnek oda, de ez egy csepp lesz abban a
tengerben,
amit mi, magyarok szeretnink tamasztani annak irdekiben, hogy
a mi |gy|nk valamikippen a vilag kvzvileminyinek a figyelmibe
ker|ljvn. Most mar tvbben mondjak, Mitterrand, volt francia
allamfu is nyilatkozta, hogy Trianonban nem az tvrtint, ami
hosszz ideig
a bikit szavatolta volna. Ezt mi, magyarok zgy szoktuk
mondani, hogy igazsagtalansag tvrtint. Mondhatjuk azt is,
hogy nagy
szamarsag az igazsagot keresni; ha az embernek ereje van,
majd lesz hozza igazsaga is, mondhatnank egy ilyen
machiavellisztikus
hozzaallassal. Migsem mindegy, igazat beszil-e az ember, vagy
nem, illetve ha van nimi igazsaga, azt elmondja-e a vilagnak,
vagy
sem. Amikor a kilencvenes ivek legelejin megalakult az elsu
magyar politikai szervezet, a VMDK, nagyon jsl fvlmirtik
akkor az
emberek, hogy ha azt akarjuk, hogy a szervezetnek hitele
legyen az itt ilu magyarok elutt, akkor ezt a kirdist fvl
kell vetni. Ezt
megtett|k, s nemrigiben a Dnevnik is ugyanezzel a timaval
foglalkozott folytatasokban. Ez eredminy, mig akkor is, ha
nem azt
mondjak a mas nyelv{ek, tehat a szerbek, amit mi, de nem is
azt mondjak, amit eddig hajtogattak, ti. nem azt allmtjak,
hogy itt 44-ben
nem tvrtint magyarellenes sz|rny{ megtorlas, hanem most mar a
hivatalos szerb tudomanyossag is foglalkozik ezzel a
kirdissel, mint
tinnyel. Egiszen biztos, hogy ez tvbbek kvzvtt annak is
kvszvnhetu, hogy a Magyar Szsban megjelent a timarsl szsls
sorozat, majd
megjelent az itteni kiadas, s hogy Budapesten is kiadtak.
Szeretnik valamikippen hozzajarulni igazsagunk terjesztisihez
azzal is,
hogy megjelentett|k franciaul is angolul.

Amikor a vilag magyarsaga meginvitalt, hogy besziljek a
timarsl elutt|k, akkor mar felvetettik azt a kirdist, miirt
magunk kvzvtt
beszil|nk errul. Nek|nk magunk elutt is tisztaznunk kell,
hogy mi is tvrtint akkor - az elmzlt vtven ivben erre nemigen
volt
alkalmunk, amit tudtunk is, elfelejtettik vel|nk -, de azirt
migsem magunknak kell mondanunk, hanem mondjuk masoknak, akik
mig kevisbi tudjak. Akkor Kanadaban meg Ausztraliaban
vsszeadtak mintegy 1700 dollart arra, hogy fordmtassam le, s
adjam ki
angolul. Nem sokkal ezt megeluzuen Gordos Jenu hmvott
Svajcba, u meg azt vetette fel, hogy miirt nem adjuk ki
franciaul, hiszen a
franciaknak nem kevis kvz|k volt ahhoz, mi tvrtint 1918-ban,
aminek egy kicsit kvvetkezminye a negyvennigy is. Elvallalta,
hogy
vsszegy{jt a fordmtasra pinzt, in pedig gy{jtsek vssze a
kiadasra. Le is fordmttatta a kvnyvet egy Strasbourgban ilu
baratjaval. Ott allt
tehat az angol kiadasra a pinz, valamint a kisz francia
fordmtas, nem tudtam vel|k mit kezdeni. Kider|lt kvzben, hogy
mind a kit
kiadason elig linyeges korrektori munkat kellett vigezni, s
tvbbek kvzvtt emiatt elig sokaig elhzzsdott a kvnyvek
kiadasa, s zgy
adsdott, hogy az angolt is is a franciat is egyszerre
mutattuk be a P|ski kiadsnal Budapesten. Az angol kiadast
teljes egisziben P|ski
Sandor kiszmtette, a franciahoz nagyon sokan hozzajarultak
itt is.

A megmaradas lehetusige

Lehet hogy egy kicsit csalsdast is okozok eluadsi kvrutam
hallgatsinak, mert in nemcsak az eseminyekrul beszilek.
Nek|nk ugyanis
nem a cilunk az, hogy ezt fvltarjuk, hanem csak az eszkvz|nk.
Zgy vagyok vele, hogy amennyiben ezt mi kipesek vagyunk -
marpedig most latszik, hogy vagyunk - fvltarni is
megemiszteni tudomanyosan is, akkor van erunk az
ittmaradashoz is a
megmaradashoz is. Ha ilyen hozzaallassal kezdem a
beszilgetist, in mindig iparkodok eljutni a 44-es timaban a
mai napig. Ez persze
nem is ker|l olyan nagy erufeszmtisbe, mert rakirdeznek az
emberek. Ott lyukadok ki a beszilgetis soran, hogy 44-ben
tvrtint, ami
tvrtint, de soha mig a vajdasagi, vagy dilvidiki magyarsag a
vilagpolitika alakmtsinak nem mondhatta meg, mert nem volt
alkalma
megmondani, hogy mit akar. Negyvennigyben is ez tvrtint.
Amikor mi, bacskaiak is baranyaiak visszatirt|nk az
anyaorszaghoz,
nem az itteni magyarok iranymtottak a politikat, hanem a
nyakunkra k|ldtek olyan embereket, akiknek nem volt ehhez
irzik|k, ippen
zgy, mint azoknak a mas nemzetisig{eknek, akik most dilrul
jvnnek ide. Abbsl kerekedett a baj, hogy masok csinaltak, is
rosszul
csinaltak, zgymond az irdek|nkben a politikat. Ha viszont mi
magunk tessz|k irdek|nkben azt, amit jsnak tartunk, ha
siker|l
kikinyszermten|nk, hogy tehess|k, akkor meggyuzudisem szerint
nek|nk is jobb lesz, meg azoknak is, akikkel egy|tt il|nk.

Az eredeti m{ kiadasa sta feltart anyagokbsl beleker|lt-e
valami ezekbe a kvnyvekbe, pont azirt, hogy mig
jobban odafigyeljenek a franciak vagy az angolok?

- Annak ellenire, hogy most mar sokkal tvbbet tudunk az
akkori eseminyekrul, mint amikor az elsu nekilend|lisben
megjelentettem
elubb a tarcat, utana a kvnyvet, sajnos nem voltam abban a
helyzetben, hogy az zjabb ismeretanyagot beledolgoznam.
Csupan az
tvrtint, hogy akkor in mindjart elukiszmtettem egy rvvidmtett
valtozatot, kihagytam az anyag kitharmad riszit, hiszen egyik
tanz is azt
mondja, amit a masik, s a sirelmeknek a nagysagat nem azzal
akartam szemliltetni, hogy tvbben mondjak el ugyanazt, elig,
ha egy
ember teszi meg. Amikor mgy vsszeallt a magyar anyag,
azonnyomban elmentem egy zjvidiki szerb kiadshoz. U maga
ajanlkozott,
hogy kiadna ezt szerb|l. Nagyjabsl mar ott alltunk, hogy
megkvtj|k a szerzudist, u vallalta a fordmtas kvltsigeit,
amikor ki|tvtt
nalunk a haborz, s elmenek|lt innen. Mgy a szerb nyelv{
fordmtasra elukiszmtett rvvidmtett valtozatbsl lett az angol
is a francia fordmtas.
Ilyen irtelemben a kvnyvek azonosak is meg nem is az
eredetivel.

Magyarok is szerbek kapcsolatarsl van szs ezeken a vigeken.
Most hogy mar kit vilagnyelven is megirte a
kiadast, van-e msd arra, hogy vig|l migiscsak megjelenjen
szerb|l is?

- Most mar nem is annyira erultetem, hogy az emlmtett anyag
jelenjen meg szerb nyelven. Inkabb azt kellene tennem - vagy
nekem,
vagy masnak -, hogy az zjabb ismeretek birtokaban egy zj,
sokkal nagyobb tudomanyos iginnyel vsszeallmtott kipet
kellene
kiszmtenem, s ezt szerb|l kiadni. Ebbe bele lehetne vonni
nemcsak az zjabb ismeretanyagot, hanem kicsit talan
polemizalni is kellene
azokkal az allmtasokkal, amelyek egiszen mas megkvzelmtisbul
indulnak ki. Nek|nk azt kellene elmondanunk a puszta
tinyekhez
ragaszkodva, ami mi |gy|nkkel foglalkozik. Nem hallottam,
hogy van-e esetleg olyan tudss, aki ezen dolgozik. Miszaros
Sandornak
nemrigiben jelent meg a kvnyve, a Holtta nyilvanmtva, amit in
ugyancsak fontosnak tartok, mert sok zj adatot tartalmaz, de
mig
mindig nem tudta u sem azt vsszehozni, amit kellene, mert nem
tudott hozzajutni azokhoz az adatokhoz, amelyekrul most mar
tudjuk,
hogy vannak, de nem tudtuk kizbevenni, hogy megemissz|k uket.
Hogy biztosan liteznek ezek az adatok, azt Aleksandar Kasas
ugyancsak nemrigiben megjelent doktori disszertacisjabsl
(Madjari u Vojvodini 1941-1946) tudjuk teljes bizonyossaggal.
Abbsl az
der|l ki, hogy de mig mennyi dokumentum van az eddig elzart
leviltari riszekben, amelyek a 44-es eseminyekre vonatkoznak,
s
maga Kasas is nagyon sok zj anyagot kvzvl. Mgy pildaul
neveket is. Nem is sejtett|k, hogy vannak aldozati nivsorok
olyan
helysigekbul, ahol zgy tudtuk, hogy nincsenek. Kasas
tanulmanya szerb nyelven jelent meg, nekem nagyon sok vitazni
valsm van
vele. Szaporodnak is ezek a kvnyvek, de az igazit mig mindig
nem kiszmtett|k el.

A leviltarak titkai

Ehhez hozzatartozik nyilvan az is, hogy nem lehetett
elkiszmteni, mert akar tvrtinisznek, mint Miszaros Sandor,
akar masnak nem
lehet hozzajutni azokhoz a leviltari adatokhoz, amelyeknek a
birtokaban mig objektmvabb kipet lehetne kiszmteni a 44-45-vs
iduszakrsl.

- Azt hiszem, nem is annyira az objektivitasrsl van szs, mert
az a kip, amit a hozzatartozsk elmondtak az eseminyekrul, az
szerintem
nem tir el a valssagtsl. Viszont hianyzik hozza az mrott
szsnak a bizonymts ereje: pecsites okmany, az alamrassal
ellatott dokumentum,
amelyet katonai kvzigazgatasi vezetuk, parttitkarok, vagy
OZNA-tisztek jelentiseibul tudnank eluszedni. Ezek csak
hellyel-kvzzel
jutottak a kezembe, hasznaltam is uket. Kasas tanulmanya egy
kazalnyi, szamunkra ismeretlen okmanyt sorol fel. Tehat, ha
mi ezeket
az okmanyokat odatennink a tanzktsl szarmazs tinyanyag melli,
akkor mondhatnank igazan azt, hogy mme, az, amit mi
allmtottunk,
okmanyokkal is bizonymthats.

Odaig eljutottunk a feltarasban, hogy egyre kevesebben
valljak azt: megtorlas nem is volt, illetve, hogy az inkabb
igazsagszolgaltatas
volt. A szerb politikai ilet is tarsadalom felfogasaban ez
uralkodott sokaig. A nagy ellenallas - irzisem szerint - most
ott van, hogy a
megtorlas milyen mireteket vltvtt. Az objektivitasnal is az
aldozatok szamanak nagysagara gondoltam, mert itt sriasiak az
eltirisek.

- Ezekkel a szamokkal nagyon szeretnek az emberek
manipulalni. Prs is kontra is. In nagyon megjegyeztem
magamnak azt, amikor
indultam ezzel a timaval, s egyszer zgy adsdott, hogy
Schlosberger Pallal le|lt|nk egy asztalhoz, u nagyon
higgadtan is okosan azt
mondta, hogy mit vacakolunk mi a szamokkal, hogy vt-, tmz-,
hzsz-, vtvenezer embert likvidaltak-e. Tudod-e - kirdezte -,
hany
zsidsk likvidaltak az zjvidiki razzia soran 42-ben?
Kvr|lbel|l tudom, valaszoltam. Nem mgy kell ezt csinalni,
hanem ha akarod tudni,
akkor szamold meg. Lenyzlt maga melli, a taskajabsl eluvett
egy csoms papmrt: "Itt van a nivsoruk, olvasd meg, hanyan
voltak." Az
az igazsag, hogy nem kell licitalni. A komputeremben kb. 2500
niv van, mig ugyanannyi van, amit nem tudtam beledolgozni. In
ott
tartok valahol az vtezernil. Tvbb olyan helysigbul is kaptam
dvbbenetesen sok adatot, amelyekrul csak a szsbeszid jutott
el hozzam,
s tanzkat sem talaltam. Pildaul Szenttamason sokan
odavesztek. Akadt egy odavalssi ember, Pintir Jszsef, aki kit
ivvel ezelutt
kutatasba kezdett. Alig akadt neki segmtutarsa, de most mar
ott tart, hogy 300 szemily nevivel rendelkezik. A kvnyvemben
nem is
foglalkozom Szenttamassal csak egy dokumentum erejiig, azt is
Klagenfurtbsl kaptam nivtelen levilben, S|ge Pal vallomasa
alapjan,
aki a negyvenes ivek vigin atszvkvtt Ausztriaba. Ilyen fehir
foltjaink vannak mig, pildaul Palankarsl csak 2-3 nevem van
vsszesen.
Vannak megdvbbentu dolgok: soha nem is gondoltuk, hogy
Perlezen magyarokat vigeztek ki. Talalkoztam egy asszonnyal
Muzslyan,
is u mondta, hogy marpedig ott voltak magyarok, s fvlsorol vt
nevet. Ezek a kvzvetlen csaladi kvrnyezetibul hianyoznak.
Banatnak a
magyarlakta riszin rengeteg ilyen adat van, sut inkabb a
vegyes lakosz telep|lisekrul, ahonnan nihany magyart
likvidaltak, nem is
tartjuk szamon uket. Aztan van egy masik, szinte tvmeges
kivigzisre utals irtes|lisem: rengeteg honvid megadta magat
abban az
iduben, s ezeknek a legnagyobb riszit, tudomasom szerint
likvidaltak. Ki tudja megmondani azt, hol vannak ezek, kik
voltak ezek.
"Elt{ntek a haborz viharaban." Nem azirt t{ntek el, mert
valami rosszat tettek, jvttek volna at esetleg a
partizanokhoz, megadtak
magukat valahol ott Oroszlamos is Maks kvzvtt, nagy naivan
atadtak a fegyvereiket, is napokon bel|l mar egy szal sem
maradt
belul|k. Ugyanilyen dolgokrsl hallottam Bezdanban is masfeli
is. Ezeket az embereket lesz nagyon nehiz niv szerint
felkutatni, s
megtudni, kik is voltak.

El nem helyezett korszak

A kezdet kezdetitul fvlmer|lt az, hogy a 44 uszi is 45
januari eseminyeket egy parlamenti bizottsag is
feltarja, ha lesz ra lehetusig. Valahogy el kellene helyezni
tvrtinelmileg ezt a korszakot. Van-e ra esily?

- Biztos vagyok benne, hogy vagy mostanaban, vagy kisubb, de
elubb-utsbb valamikor a belgradi parlamentnek ebben a kirdisben
nyilatkoznia kell. Nem lehet megker|lni a kirdist. Ahogy a
magyar parlamentben 42 utan a razziaval muszaj volt foglalkozni,
ugyanmgy a szerb vagy a jugoszlav parlamentben foglalkozni
kell vele. A vajdasagi parlament nem lenne elig, hiszen azt,
ami44-bentvrtint, Belgradbsl iranymtottak, ez a Kasasnak a kvnyvibul
is egyirtelm{en kider|l, aki nem azt mondja ugyan, hogy
azirt, ami itttvrtint, Titsik a felelusek, hanem a tinyek
fvlsorolasaval szinte logikailag ravezet benn|nket arra, hogy itt
bizony nem kis helyi,
huzvngu, virbosszzra lihegu emberek intizkedtek, hanem maga
mondja pildaul: a zentai kiszemelt emberek felelussigre vonasat az
OZNA-ra bmztak. Igaz ugyan, hogy elmulasztja megemlmteni, kik
bmztak ra, hol van erre okmany, s hogyan hajtottak azt vigre, de
mgy is egyirtelm{, hogy kinek az iranymtasa alatt volt. Az a
szemforgats magatartas, amit Tito tanzsmtott, amikor
felelussigre vonta Isa Jovanovicikat, mintha akkor szerzett volna
 tudomast arrsl,  hogy mi tvrtinik a magyarlakta vidiken, csak a
vilag feli volt egy gesztus.Tito tudta, mit csinal, s azt is,
hogy azt mikippen lehetleplezni. Egy js ideig siker|lt is neki.
Szammthatunk-e arra, hogy nemzetkvzi hatasra indul meg a
kivizsgalas?
- Szeretnim, ha ezt siker|lne elirni, is azt hiszem, hogy ki
kell kinyszermten|nk. Ha nem jutunk el odaig, hogy legalabb
nihany tvmegsmrt fvltarjunk, akkor a bizonymtasnak nem jartunk a
vigire. Ott van pildaul a szabadkai Zentai zti temetu, ahol
egyes allmtasok szerint akar tvbb ezren is lehetnek a tvmegsmrokban.
Nem  mindegy, hogy kitszazan vagy vtezren nyugszanak ott, mert van, aki
azt
allmtja, hogy hitezren. Mint mondtam, in nem szeretem a nagy
szamokat, mert ezekkel nem biztos, hogy a magunk igazat
bizonymtjuk, sut lehet, hogy az ellenkezujit tessz|k, mert
bebizonymtjak, hogy nem igaz, is akkor mindjart meg lehet
kirdujelezni a szavunk hitelessigit. Nek|nk tehat el kell jutnunk egy
nemzetkvzi, nem mtilubizottsaghoz, de legalabbis szakirtui
kvzrem{kvdishez, hogy azok segmtsigivel tarjuk fel a temerini,
 szabadkai, szivaci  is mas tvmegsmrokat. Azt is tudjuk, hogy
pildaul Csernyin hol  vannak elkaparva a halottak, ezeket is
meg kellene nizni. A  debelyacsaiak most mar tudjak, hova lett
eltemetve nagy  lelkisz|k, Gacsal tiszteletes zr, ki kellene
hantolni, hogy azonosmtsak,  illetve hogy megallapmtsak, el
volt-e tvrve a csontja,  tarkslvvis vigzett-e vele stb.
Ha mondjuk a temerini tvmegsmrban szaz ember nyugszik, meg
lehet allapmtani, hogyan vigeztek vel|k. A nemzetkvzi
kvzrem{kvdis legfontosabb hozadikanak in azt tartanam,
ha ezeknek a  tvmegsmroknak legalabb a nagyobbik hanyadat, ahol a
fvltiteleziseink szerint tvbben vannak eltemetve, megniznink.
A szivaci smrok kapcsan allmtotta egy vitatkozs, hogy azokban
a Radnstival egy|tt menetelu zsidsk csontjai vannak. Pontosan
az ilyen vileminyek miatt van sz|ksig a feltarasra, hiszen,
ha masbsl  nem, de a naluk maradt holmibsl mig mindig meg lehet
allapmtani, hogy ezek a bori halaltabornak a menek|lu lakosai-e,
vagy pedig a  temerini magyarok. A nemzetkvzi kvzrem{kvdiskint
tartom  szamon mar azt is, hogy a francia is angol nyelv{
kvnyvet el lehet  juttatni megfelelu helyre. Nek|nk meg kell
jelentetn|nk egy  zerb is egy nimet nyelv{ kiadast is,
esetleg erusebb bizonymtsanyaggal. Ezt nek|nk kell
megtenn|nk, mert magat a tinyt sem a magyarorszagi
magyarok, sem a nemzetkvzi igazsagszolgaltatas vagy
tvrtinelemkutatas hozta magaval, hanem ippen az itteni,
vajdasagi magyarok emeltik fvl. A parizsi
bikeszerzudiskor az anyaorszagi politikusoknak
 msdjukban allt volna fvlvetni ezt a kirdist, s nem azirt nem
tettik, mert nem tudtak rsla, hanem azirt, mert zgy mirtik
fvl, nem alkalmas az idu arra, hogy maguk ellen haragmtsak
Titsikat. Ennek mrasos nyoma is van. Ezirt is kellett tvbbek
 kvzvtt  vtven ivet varni a kirdis felvetisire, is ezirt mertik a
tinyek tagadsi akezdet kezdetin azt mondani, hogy az eset
meg sem tvrtint. Mig hivatkoztak is a magyar bikedelegacisra,
 mondvan, hogy az ott a megtorlasrsl nem is tett emlmtist.
Magat a timat a vajdasagi magyarok emlmtettik eluszvr, mi
 kutattuk, mi adtuk ki angolul is franciaul, nek|nk kell
ezt az egisz |gyet zgy fvltarni, ahogy a  legjobban tudjuk,
s amikor mar sok ismeretanyaggal
rendelkez|nk, akkor kell jobban odahatni, hogy a szerb
parlamentben - is ne csak a Szerb Tudomanyos Akadimian -
 ezt egyszer s mindenkorra
tisztazzuk, mint ahogy annak idejin a nimetek meg a franciak
tisztaztak a maguk |gyit. Nek|nk, dilvidiki magyaroknak, s
 egyaltalan az egyetemes magyarsagnak is az egyetemes
 szerbsignek tisztaznia kell ezt a kirdist.

Keszig Karoly
1996. jan. 10.
+ - Eminescu- Is this for Real ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Who was responsible to check out if this poet was indeed a
NAZI :

" Azt azonban tudni kellet volna 1992-ben,
minden atyafia kvzvtt ippen Eminescu gy{lvlte legjobban a magyarsagot,
 is ezt szamos esetben mrasban is rvgzmtette. Aszia is eurspa
szigyeninek nevezte mrasban nemzet|nket, is ami sirtu is szennyes,
azt mind rank rakta, pusztan hallabsl, hogy Pesten kvzvlhette a
verseit az anyanyelvin."


Albert Albu
----------


 I found this a t


<http://users.aol.com/nemzetif/f6041801.htm>;



>>>........Emitt csupan a budapesti varosatyakkal szeretnik szst valtani,
bar nem hiszem, hogy nagyobb foganatja liszen, mint a fenti urakkal
szemben irvelni tudomanyosan. Mig Funar Kolozsvar futere alatt
keresi az els{llyedt roman atlantiszt, addig nehiz, nehiz.
Budapesten is megallt a tvrtinelmi idu nihol, s zgy maradt,
ahogy az egyeseknek kell.

1992-ben pildaul mar sok mindent lehetett volna tudni, mielutt
emliktablakra adtak fej|ket az urak. Ugyanis akkor helyeztik el a
Nyary Pal ztca is a hmres Vaci utca keresztezudisinek egyik
sarokhazan azt a marvanytablat, mely tudtara adja a mindenkori
vandornak, hogy azon a helyen allot Iosif Vulkan roman szerkeztu
FAMILIA nevz lapjanak szerkeztusige. Ott kvzvltik a fiatal
Eminescu (akkor mig Eminovici), a legnagyobb roman kvltu elsu
verseit 1866- ban.

Szip dolog az elmilkedis, de megeluzuen Pesten ki kellet volna
dermteni, hogy tulajdonkippen megirdemli-e holtaban a roman kvltu
ezt a gesztust Budapest nipitul is varosatyaitsl. Jobb hazaknal
ilyen estben mig zgy altalaban is irdekludnek, ha nem tudnak valamit.

1886-ban valsban nem volt olyan meglepu, hogy Budapesten roman
szerkeztusig m{kvdik. <<<<<<<<<
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves Samu!

At 20:18 12/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In article >,  (George
>Szaszvari) writes:
>
>>BTW Saddam is far from *stupid*, in the sense that he fully well
>>understands the game that is being played between himself and the
>>western military-industrial complex that deliberately keeps him in
>>power in Baghdad...especially since the demise of the Evil Empire of
>>the USSR.
>
>I'm willing to grant that Saddam is smarter than most of the members of
>the Bush administration and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, including Colin
>Powell. The Gulf War shows up the flaws among Powell's generation of
>military strategists. Stung by Vietnam, they now only want conflicts that
>are "doable." Yet this policy seems to lead us repeatedly into situations
>where we are doing nothing more than a more elaborate version of
>re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. What's really cynical is that
>Powell and Schwartzkopf both have criticized the Clinton administration
>recently for zapping Saddam with cruise missiles when both of them, Powell
>especially, are directly culpable for Saddam still being in power and
>still being a threat to stability in the region. While I respect Powell
>for his personal integrity, I'd never vote for him for President. That's
>because of his performance in the Gulf War. He shows a distressing
>inability to extrapolate beyond the immediate situation.

Could I remind you that the Gulf War was not conducted solely by the U.S.,
but was the result of a resolution passed in the United Nations? The goal
was (mainly) to get Saddam out of Kuwait, which was done, but was *not* to
necessarily depose or kill him - though if that had happened everybody would
have been happy. In any case, the war was already won when the Allies were
massacring the Republican Guard on the road out of Kuwait City and that was
very much protested at the time. The fact is that in order to get rid of
Saddam thousands more innocent Iraquis would have had to die, and there just
was not the will to pursue that, plus it would have been contrary to the
U.N. resolution.

The fact is that the Gulf War was the most competently-run and managed and
probably the most justified war in which the U.S. will ever get involved,
and I don't think Schwartzkopf or Powell should be subject to adverse
criticism for their performance. It's a case of 20-20 hindsight, but the
fact is that they were very much criticized for carrying it too far at the time
.

>When Norman Schwarzkopf made a public criticism of the
>>decision not to take Baghdad when the Allies could have just walked
>>in and installed a friendly and sane government of Iraqi exiles, he
>>was told to shut up...and did.
>
>And has turned into a reliable mouthpiece for those responsible for
>throwing away any positive results from the Gulf War. Two months after the
>war ended, I spent some time in a local U.S. Army Reserve Center chatting
>with the colonel who commanded a supply company for an armored unit during
>the ground war.<snip> "We'll have
>to do it all over again in five or six years because we didn't finish the
>job," he told me. I think he was right.

He may be right - but, as I said, it was a war with limited aims. It was
justified, because it was an invasion of one country by another. Actually
getting rid of Saddam is another kettle of fish - and potentially has
consequences which have not been given due consideration - such as the
resultant strengthening of Iran in the area. Is that really something we
want to do?

>The Hungarian aspect of this whole issue? Perhaps it can serve as a
>precautionary warning -- even the best and the brightest can learn the
>wrong lessons from national history. And if Hungary ever decides to
>participate in U.N. peace-keeping missions, much less sign on as a member
>of NATO, it ought to constantly re-assess the goals of its participation
>and whether they are being met. (There, Hugh, how's that?)

The lesson that was learned from Viet Nam, as you are saying, is to avoid
getting entangled in a morass without the will to carry through the task at
hand. And the men who were fighting it were forced to fight with one hand
behind their backs. But, the question really is whether they should have
been there at all. Perhaps the lesson for Hungary - which is unlikely ever
to find itself in the position of the U.S. as a super-power making such
decisions on intervention - may be rather that if your national struggle can
be couched in the right terms, you may succeed in winning U.S. help - but
are they really the kind of fast friend that you would want to depend on in
a pinch? Let's see what happens in Bosnia . . .

That is the problem with national policy today, I feel. Without the focus of
the Cold War, the U.S.'s foreign policy seems to be more and more the
politics of expediency.

My two fillers worth . . .

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne/Janka

p.s. I'm back again! Let's see if it continues this time! (My problems
always seem to recur when I post a message).

>Sam Stowe
>
>
>
>"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
>Inside of a dog, of course, it's too dark to read."
>-- Groucho Marx
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Amazing America/Peter the Amazing I (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
<SNIP>
> Good question! I will ask *you* now...Did *you* see the video, did *you* hear
> the
> s'cermon from Dr.Kennedy? Please give us the details. Would like to see it
> and hear it myself. This rivals the stuff comming from Lindon LaRouss (sp) -
> like Queen Elizabeth is a drug smugler, so is Kissinger etc.
>
> MEP
>
Not only did I see it, it was on several local TV stations as well.
Perhaps it is avaialbe for a few dollars donation?? Thus you can see the
entire thing on your own video even!
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Below please see my comments to Ferenc's quotes:

>
> Someone on this list raised the possibility that the Hungarian propensity to
> commit suicide might in some way be connected to low self-esteem and a
> feeling of helplessness in the midst of adverse historical events.  Reading
> recent (and earlier) postings penned by Eva Balogh, I suddenly realized that
> in her person we may have the incarnation of the self-loathing and perceived
> inferiority that some attribute to the Hungarian psyche.  Eva rarely misses a
> chance to find fault with and denigrate the national character, historical
> figures, most anythig ever accomplished by Hungary or Hungarians.  Her
> attitude may actually harm her credibility by raising the question in the
> reader: "How can I take seriously anything written by a member of such a
> 'stupid, backward, cowardly, racist' etc. (Eva's oft-used adjectives) tribe?"
>
> Is there a psychologist out there who could comment on this?
>
> Ferenc
>
Ference,     I'm not a psychologist, but....

I'm just a listmember who'd like to make a comment.  What do you think of peopl
e
who seem seriously unable to debate on ISSUES and whose contributions are often
simply to attack individuals??

I've enjoyed Eva's various postings on history, Hungarian dogs and praise of th
e
Hungarian language.  Eva makes mistakes sometimes, but we all do.  What's
 more..she has been able to admit it!  She contributes with info and news and
 makes
comments. She tries to analyze things and lets us think about different views.
 Is she less *constructive* than you ?????

It's a shame you probably missed these because of some kind
of self-righteous need to attack those whose opinions you don't like... and
then have to try and find some kind of group support to support you.

If you would like a psychologist's opinions  (Your post seems to show you are
maybe subconciously begging for a psychologist's help...), I am sure you could
find one in your area who'd be happy to make an appointment with you.

Sok szerencse't!    - Mark H      Btw: Your willingness to try and publically
offend people is a beautiful example to non-Hungarians as to the positive side
of the Hungarian national character. The idea of Hungarians helping each other
and being kind and friendly is so evident in your postings.  Thanks for the
 goodexample!  Keep that mind open!
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:44 PM 10/13/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

<snip>
>The trouble, dear Norma, is that some women on this list
>behave very typically. Many times they talk the good talk,
>but in some other cases they do not. And, thanks to the
>great success of the feminic movements, they completely
>lost the ability to realize, when is it exactly when they
>behave simply like 'a bunch of noisy females'.   :-( )
>
>The big mistake is that they also assume, that men do not
>realize it either. ;-)
>                                                 Sz. Zoli

Zoli,

Does the expression "male chauvinist pig" mean anything to you?

Joe Szalai

"Feminism is an entire world view or gestalt, not just a laundry list of
women's issues."
                Charlotte Bunch
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:44 PM 10/13/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>The trouble, dear Norma, is that some women on this list
>behave very typically. Many times they talk the good talk,
>but in some other cases they do not. And, thanks to the
>great success of the feminic movements, they completely
>lost the ability to realize, when is it exactly when they
>behave simply like 'a bunch of noisy females'.   :-( )

        And what about the men who behave simply like "a bunch of noise
men." And stupid men at that.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Logic, Church, and State (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Both Louis and George talked about the lack of official statistics
on religious affiliation in the censuses. I was just wondering yesterday in
a private letter to an Internet friend in connection with the size of the
Hungary's Jewish population today whether the Magyar Kozponti Statisztikai
Hivatal decided lately to include religious affiliation into its data. Since
1948-49 no such official statistics has been collected. It would be high
time to reintroduce them.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Logic, Church, and State (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:03 AM 10/14/96 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Both Louis and George talked about the lack of official statistics
>on religious affiliation in the censuses. I was just wondering yesterday in
>a private letter to an Internet friend in connection with the size of the
>Hungary's Jewish population today whether the Magyar Kozponti Statisztikai
>Hivatal decided lately to include religious affiliation into its data. Since
>1948-49 no such official statistics has been collected. It would be high
>time to reintroduce them.

Why?  In Canada, in most cases, it is illegal to ask what one's religion is.
Statistics are collected by governments so that they can develop appropriate
domestic policy.  As long as there is freedom of religion what difference
does it make to know how many adherents there are?   Besides, if you really
wanted to know, the religious organizations will tell you how many members
they have.  I remember that the census forms, in Canada, used to ask about
religion but I don't think they do that any more, although I may be wrong on
this.  In any case, we always used to check off "Catholic", because that's
what we "were", even though we hadn't seen the inside of a church for a
generation.  The census forms never asked if we went to church or if we
believed.  So, what good would these stats be?

Joe Szalai

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
             Benjamin Disraeli
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The major cause of Hungary's high suicide rate is Hungary's high suicide
rate...

Louis Elteto


>Or is it that the "Hungarian propensity to commit suicide" might be
>connected to a refusal to admit that (like the rest of the human race)
>Hungarians too commit sins and make mistakes, and therefore even such mild
>and reasoned criticism as Eva's causes a deep depression (the usual cause
>of suicide) in at least some Hungarians?
>
>
>Norma Rudinsky
>
>
+ - Re: the Right & abortion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 20:00 12/10/96 -0700, Louis Elteto wrote, responding to Gabor's comment :

<sznippetry>
>>This argument can only be ad genus, since only men can leave their wives and
>>children, etc. Therefore, I suggest that only those should resent it (or
>>rather feel ashamed) who did those things.
>>
>>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>Why, then, aim at the whole genus?
>
>Louis Elteto

Kedves Magyarok!

BTW, if by definition, only men can leave their wives, it appears to me to
be an unrealistic proposition to state that "only men can leave their
wives." The way it was phrased earlier seemed to me to tar men with too
broad a brush. The phrase *dead-beat dads* is quite common - but in my 11
years of practising law, I have seen many cases where the wives left the
husbands - and even left the kids with the husbands. And in *very* few of
those cases did I ever see the wives paying child support for the children.
So, it appears to me that at least here in Canada (and I think this is true
in the U.S. as well), the system has swung too far in favour of protection
of the females and works to the unfair disadvantage of guys.

Also, BTW, I didn't mean to comment on the abortion thread, but since I am
here anyway - since men are one-half of the biological mix that it takes to
create a child, I think men *should* be allowed to have a say in the
development of regulations governing abortions. While I agree in principle
with the idea that a woman should be able to govern what happens to her
body, I cannot help but feel that  in 99% of the cases, the abortion was
obtained because the pregnancy was inconvenient. There are better ways to
avoid having to bear a child - using birth control for one - and, hey,
whatever happened to abstinence???? Basically, I think abortion is murder,
no matter how you try to sidestep the issue - remember a foetus at three
months is a perfectly formed little human being who even sucks his thumb in
the womb. There maybe reasons that society should allow *limited* and
controlled abortions (I agree it's better than having back-alley abortions)
but I think people should not be able to avoid acknowledging the reality of
what they are doing.

What do I do about Hungarian content on this one? Would it be Hungarian
enough if I were Hungarian? All I can say is that I guess these are issues
that are as relevant in Hungary as elsewhere -and if the rate of suicide is
any indication, I would suspect that the rate of abortions is quite high in
Hungary as well, as a corollary of the apparent pessimism of the people.
Does anyone have any statistics on this??

Sorry to digress at length on what for me is a distressing topic.

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne/Janka


>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>At 09:44 PM 10/13/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>
>>The trouble, dear Norma, is that some women on this list
>>behave very typically. Many times they talk the good talk,
>>but in some other cases they do not. And, thanks to the
>>great success of the feminic movements, they completely
>>lost the ability to realize, when is it exactly when they
>>behave simply like 'a bunch of noisy females'.   :-( )
>
>        And what about the men who behave simply like "a bunch of noise
>men." And stupid men at that.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>Eva (I don't dare to call you "Dear".What is happening here all of a sudden?
The religious right brought up this abortion issue,and all of a sudden you
turn on men?Stupid too.
Well Lets have some other discussion,and try not to put this thread against men
.
And if you do please be selctive.We are all not stupid,we have lived and
married women,we shared there troubles as much as they shared ours.
You want proof,I can supply you with them,and I promisse I will not quote
anybody else,just my own experience.
Sincerely Andy K.
+ - Re: P.Soltesz or C'Sermon from the mount (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
><SINPPETY>
>>
>> Hungary always had a high suicide rate. As far as alcoholizm is concerned,
>> it has been  a problem in all communist countrys. But, it is a problem in
>> the US as well. As with most things, EDUCATION is the answer.
><<<<<<<<<<< Educations is ONE of the answers. So is theeconomy,
>reliugion, etc.
>>
>> Abortion, - it should be a womans right to choose! It is not used for birth
>> control!
>
><<<<<< Well at least we agree on some things after all!
> The procedure is
>painful, it is surgery. Who the hell would want to
>> use this method of birth control. Get a life! Every person has to decide tha
t
><<<<<<<<< I am staying out of it...in fact I strongly support that it
>must be between the Woman and God. (Her family should also be incvolved
>as support  and information and love).
>I KNOW that it is not an easy thing. For some it is nothing for others
>it is murder.
>The ONLY time I want to be involved is if YOU (that is the generic you)
>want for me pay for  it !
>That is where I draw the line!
>
>Peter,Peter,Peter:sorry old chum,but why is the last weapon tour monney?
Who is asking for that.Somehow it alleays ends up with your monney.Schools
abortion,elections liberalism,etc.
Are you so rich that you have to be affraid where your monney is going?
Please!Andy
+ - The 1700s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This posting is to address some of the issues brought up by Hugh. Sorry for
not copying his post, but I will try to expound my thoughts in this regard.

1) There is nothing special about the Hungarians, they are and were not
better or worse than any other nation.

2) In the early 1700s their land just came out of an almost continuous 150
year of warfare and they bore the major brunt of another 150 years of wars
against the Turks
in nearby Balkan areas. This did not put them in a favorable starting point
for the
"bridge to the XVIII century".

3) The reformation in fact started the spreading of culture in printed
Hungarian and greatly increased the number of Hungarians (here I include the
Transylvanians) who studied abroad also. Just for a brief list from the XVII
century

Istvan Bocskai, Prague
Janos Draskovich, Graz
Gyorgy Szepsi Korotz, Heidelberg, Marburg
Janos Pataki Fusus, Heidelberg
Andras Pragai, Heidelberg
Alvinci Peter, Heidelberg, Wittenberg
Anonymus, Ohio State University
Miklos Bethlen, Heidelberg, Utrecht, Leyden
Albert Szenci Molnar, Wittenberg,Heidelberg, Strassburg
Janos Mikolai Hegedus, Oxford
Janos Apaczai Csere, Leyden, Utrecht, Hardervijk
Ferenc Papai Pariz, Marburg, Leipzig, Heidelberg, Basel
Miklos Totfalusi Kis, Amsterdam
Pal Medgyesi, Frankfurt, Leyden, Oxford
Matyas Dioszegi Bonis, Leyden

These are the ones of whom we have records based on their writings, there
are many more
who just went to school but did not face the publish or perish pressure.
Most of them were protestant.

4) A large percentage of the writing and printing was still in Latin and
using a then common language should not detract from the cultural heritage
of those times. The reason I was quoting from more Transylvanian sources,
because there, even the official language was Hungarian in the local level
and because the religious tolerance was on a much higher level than
elsewhere i.e the Habsburg or Turkish occuopied areas.

5) However, it should be significant that, for example, Miklos Zrinyi wrote
his tract in Hungarian. (Here an aside to another posting relating to only
Transylvanian opposition to the Habsburgs see Zrinyi, Frangepani, Nadasdi,
etc. from the distinctly non-Transylvanian areas.

6) I strongly disagree that the contemporary language was not usable for the
expression
of sophisticated subjects.

7) The change from the wartime regime to the peace time regime under the
Habsburgs decreased even the Transylvanian access to western university
studies or other foreign contacts. The whole area became a Habsburg backwater.

8) The Habsburgs are not solely responsible for the deteriorating situation
in Hungary, but they were a strong contributors by isolating Hungary from
independent development
and partly from access to the fast developing commercial and technical
activities of West European countries. The backward looking studies of
ancient Greece and Rome in Hungary became a (sometimes allegorical)
aviodance of the current and real problems.
In my opinion, later both Kossuth and Szechenyi were wrong by categorically
placing economy and freedom in their stated priority. The truth is somewhere
in the middle.
Education, however, is very important and in this aspect the reformed church
efforts were much stronger than the Roman Catholic in the XVII and XVIII
century. Later this changed and many Catholic schools were established, but
that occured mainly in the second half of the XIX century.

9) The cooperation between the minorities was better before the Habsburg
divide and conquer policy was established. The upward mobility of the lower
classes became more restricted in the XVIII century. Mass civitization on
the scale of the Hayduk occurred only for immigrant groups such as the
invited Serbs.

10) The political concern of the Hungarian nobles became intracentric,
because that was the only sphere left open for them.

Thus back to the original posit, so far I have not read any responses that
would cause me to change my mind that if Rakoczi has won, Hungary would have
been better off. And to add, for earlier times, (but in the spirit of Hugh's
primary interest) I am also convinced that the Czechs would have been better
off if they could have stayed independent of the Habsburgs.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:46 PM 14/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 09:44 PM 10/13/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>>
>>>The trouble, dear Norma, is that some women on this list
>>>behave very typically. Many times they talk the good talk,
>>>but in some other cases they do not. And, thanks to the
>>>great success of the feminic movements, they completely
>>>lost the ability to realize, when is it exactly when they
>>>behave simply like 'a bunch of noisy females'.   :-( )
>>
Should this, as above, have been written by any human,  who has earned even
an iota of respect in my eyes - I would be enclined to take it seriously
enough, to debate  - you know - being a "woman and all"?  As it is .....

Regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: The 1700s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Reply to Eva Balogh

>        Isn't it amazing how something which begins as a discussion about
>economic development ends up on the "expressiveness" of the Hungarian
>language in the seventeenth century (yes, the 1600s we are talking about!).

Please see the title the "1700s", we started with the issue of Rakoczi, and as
 far as I can count on my fingers and toes that is the XVIII century.

>I have never doubted the expressiveness of ordinary Hungarian in any
>century: there are hundreds of wonderful letters from that century, for
>example. Or one can savor the religious debates between Protestants and
>Catholics. Both Jeliko's and Gabor Fencsik's examples are good ones. But
>this is not what we are talking about. Or, at least, this is not what I
>wasn't talking about.
>
>        On the language front, it wasn't the question of "expressiveness,"
>but lack of certain vocabulary: technical, philosophical, economic, and so
>on. That's why the Hungarian intelligentsia in the first decades of the
>nineteenth century felt that it was necessary to get Hungarian equivalents
>of modern terms, missing from the language for the very reasons I outlined
>in my earlier postings.
>
Would you please check what you have written originally about the Hungarian
 language of the time. I am sorry, but the contemporary Hungarian intelligentsi
a
 was perfectly capable of reading the classics in the original Latin and Greek
 also and did not have the absolute necessity of translating it into Hungarian
 because they could not read Latin or Greek anymore. (Although I do give away
 the special "award". The translation by Andras Pragai was from Marcus
 Aurelius). Well, most of my quotes were from political tomes, but there are
 others. See Janos Apacai Csere "A tudomanyok Kezdeteirol" section in his
 encyclopedia, or Samuel Keri's "Kereszteny Seneca" from which I will qoute
 some:
"Elni egesz eletunkben tanulnunk kell, de ami legcsudalatosabb, egesz eletunkbe
n
 tanulnunk kell meghalni. Annyi nagy emberek, minden jovakat elhagyvan es
 gazdasagokrol, tisztsegekrol s ertekekrol lemondvan, ezt az egyet cselekedtek,
 eletek utolso orajaig, mindazon sokan ezek kozul elholtak, megvallvan, hogy me
g
 magokat sem ismerik." "Tudod:
valami kerekded, azt megmerni es minden format negyszogleture formalni, nincsen
 semmi, ami mertekedre ne essek. Ha mester vagy merd meg az ember elmejet, mond
 meg: milyen nagy legyen s mely kicsiny." " Azt a tarsasagot kell szorgalmatosa
n
 es szentul tisztelni, amely mindent az emberi nemzetnek hasznara fordit es
 belso tarsasag baratsaga tiszteletenek igen nagy s hasznos elomenetelere
 vagyon, amin nagy bolond az, aki lovat vasarolvan nam azt nezi meg hanem
 pokrocat es zabolajat." There is also Ferenc Papai Pariz who wrote a medical
 book which while having a Latin title "Pax corporis" is written in Hungarian.
 There is also Janos Lippai's "Pozsonyi Kert" , discussing in chapters the
 "Viragoskert" "Vetemenyeskert" es "Gyumolcsoskert" planting and care. As I hav
e
 stated earlier many new words were incorporated or derived from Greek and more
 so from Latin also into the then contemporary French and English. But they are
 not as obvious as the ones brought into Hungarian.


>        My general impression is that Jeliko is unwilling to see the whole
>picture. He is talking about some *individual* achievement. Yes, there was a
>man called Janos Apaczai Csere who wrote an encyclopedia before the French
>"philosophes," but that doesn't mean that Hungary therefore was ahead, or
>equal of France in economic, social, or technical development. First of all,
>encyclopedias were already known in antiquity, and both the Middle Ages and
>the Renaissance could boast several encyclopedias. As far as "modern"
>encyclopedias are concerned, there were several from the beginning of the
>seventeenth century: Italian, French, English, German. Some in the
>vernaculars and some in Latin. The French *Encyclope'die* of Diderot and
>D'Alambert is famous not because it was an early one but because it became
>the intellectual storehouse of the ideas of the Enlightenment.
>
The issue is again: would Hungary have been better off if Rakoczi won and not
 comparative later development. My specific claim is somewhat reinfoced by your
 arguments that many of the western nations from that point on developed faster
.
That is my specific argument that the contacts existed to keep up with the west
,
 but these contacts were subsequently stifled. The tenet of the argument is tha
t
 a basis existed for accelerated further development, if independence was
 achieved after the long wars.

>        And yes, many future Transylvanian ministers studied in the
>Netherlands because of the Calvinist connection but that again doesn't mean
>that Hungary was anywhere close to the economic, financial, technological,
>and yes, artistic achievement of the Dutch. The difference between the two
>countries is starkly described in the extant writings of those Transylvanian
>students who studied in Holland. Think of Miklos Misztotfalusi Kiss, for
>example.
>
There are still extant paintings from those days from Hungary which are even
 today are as good as any Dutch paintings. Most of them were portraits of famou
s
 folks, but they were the ones who could afford it. Financial control was very
 strongly held by Vienna, so again your argument fits my proposition. Now, it i
s
 true that the seafaring nations
had a significant economic advantage in those days commerce with east was
 blocked by the Turks and to the west by Austria. However, miners in Hungary in
 those days were producong and processing metals and by the way they were not
 nearly as exploited as in western countries. You keep forgetting that the
 country was climing out of the hole of the continuous Turkish wars at the time
.

>        There is no way that I will accept Jeliko's proposition that Hungary
>was not behind the West in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Or for
>that matter in the nineteenth century or today, at the end of the twentieth.
Eva, you can distort what I started out to propose and divert it into other
 subjects, other time periods, but so far you have brought up very little
 regarding the original proposition.

>Even if he brings up the names of all those excellent twentieth-century
>physicists and mathematicians (including Pal Erdos) who were largely
>responsible for the computer age it still doesn't prove a *general*
>development (economic, technical, social) equal to that of Western Europe.

Why would I? What it has to do with the subject? May I ask why you keep bringin
g
 all these irrelevant statements into a reasonably defined discussion? If you
 brought the two Bolyais up, at least it could be more relevant.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>  Szekely Zoli Wrote:
>
> The trouble, dear Norma, is that some women on this list
> behave very typically. Many times they talk the good talk,
> but in some other cases they do not. And, thanks to the
> great success of the feminic movements, they completely
> lost the ability to realize, when is it exactly when they
> behave simply like 'a bunch of noisy females'.   :-( )
>
> The big mistake is that they also assume, that men do not
> realize it either. ;-)
>                                                  Sz. Zoli
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


While reading the above written by our Cyber Sage, a flush
of "Clean" thought crossed my mind.

Do we have a closet male chauvinist entertaining us? Or, is it just a
male with bad experiences ? One does not know.

He writes,:' .. some women on this list behave very typically.'
Typically !? Compared to what!?
Then, he continues with a gem: " Many times they talk the good talk
but in some other cases they do not" - Just what would they have
to say to talk the 'good talk' whatever that is ? And who is the
qualified judge? Some unhappy and unlicensed "erkolcs csosz"?

Regarding his final comment about the  success of the feminist movement,
one can only say: Attitudes as revealed by Zoli's statements, in the
North America of 1996 cannot hurt the feminist movement. On the contrary,
it can be used as an incentive for the work is still left to do.

in fact, one would not be surprised if the feminists celebrate the addition
of a "secret weapon" to their arsenal.

        Good work Zoli !

                                Mark O.F.
+ - Re: P.Soltesz or C'Sermon from the mount (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Andy Kozma wrote:
SNIP>
> Who is asking for that.Somehow it alleays ends up with your monney.Schools
> abortion,elections liberalism,etc.
> Are you so rich that you have to be affraid where your monney is going?
> Please!Andy
<<<< nO andy, I am not. What I have I earned, none was given to me.
The essence of the problem is not money, but is one aspect only,
is that If someone wants to do something that in my opinion is wrong or
unethical, then please do not ask me to condone and pay for at as well.
You see it is bad enough when someone is doing wrong (I may be able to
influence them not to, but to ask me to give implicit approval and help
pay for it as well is against my religion and beter sense as well.
So if they wish to do things that they want them let them pay for it and
leave me and my children (and all others like me) out of their demands
for service whether it be any of the above you cited. Thanx, Peter>
+ - Re: Suicide (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What on earth did my comment about Hungarian suicide rates have to do
with gender stereotypes?  If I had signed it Norman instead of Norma,
what would Zoli (and others) have answered?


In a private response a related topic came up (which also has nothing to
do with gender, please).

You're quite right that Slovak behavior is not very different,
though I personally feel more optimistic about it because it seems based
in great part on the growing pains associated with finally getting their
own state, their name on the map, etc, and having to outgrow 19th century
nationalism in the late 20th century of internationalism etc.

Since the Hungarians have had those "advantages" for a millenium, I fear
the behavior we're seeing on the net has a deeper cause in firstly a sort of
perfectionism,
defensiveness and martyr complex, fear of admitting error or mistakes,
etc, which are explained by their history in a "sea of Germanism and
Slavdom" etc, i.e. all the usual explanations.

Secondly, I blame the failure of the Magyar language (i.e.its governors)
to create a word equivalent to the Slavic uhorsko, uherske, etc for the
Empire or Hungarian kingdom as a multi-national state, to distinguish it
from mad'ar, mad'ersky for the nationality of magyars within that
multinational state.  This failure has created a false image that
everything in the old
state belonged to the Magyar nation, and all the other peoples were just
"minorities."  While common sense and common knowledge of the history deny
the validity of that image, it still exists and creates a sort of
"double-think" or double-bind that is conflicting to say the least.


Some of the fault lies in Herder's organic view of a nation as evolving
toward some perfect expression of a people's soul, etc, which suggested
that a nation had to be perfect, and which was the heart of much 19th
century nationalism (and radical nationalism today too).  Therefore,
"Magyarism (or Slovakhood) can't include any faults or
mistakes."  More helpful, humane, and realistic is the view of the state
as a contract to avoid problems and reduce the need to be perfect by
checks and balances, etc.


Norma Rudinsky
+ - Re: The 1700s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:58 PM 10/14/96 -0400, Jeliko wrote:
>Reply to Eva Balogh
>
>>        Isn't it amazing how something which begins as a discussion about
>>economic development ends up on the "expressiveness" of the Hungarian
>>language in the seventeenth century (yes, the 1600s we are talking about!).
>
>Please see the title the "1700s", we started with the issue of Rakoczi, and as
> far as I can count on my fingers and toes that is the XVIII century.

        The title of the thread may be the 1700s but your and Gabor's
examples of literary prose were from the seventeenth century.


>I am sorry, but the contemporary Hungarian intelligentsia
> was perfectly capable of reading the classics in the original Latin and Greek
> also and did not have the absolute necessity of translating it into Hungarian
> because they could not read Latin or Greek anymore.

        I simply don't know what you are talking about. We were talking
about the language reformers--they wanted to have "Hungarian words" for new
concepts in the social sciences, philosophy, and technology. What does that
have to do with their foreign-language skills, which were considerable
especially when it came to Latin.


>The issue is again: would Hungary have been better off if Rakoczi won and not
> comparative later development. My specific claim is somewhat reinfoced by you
r
> arguments that many of the western nations from that point on developed
faster.

        Why? Because they were nation states? Surely not. Moreover, as
opposed to Hugh, I believe that the area we call Eastern Europe today,
including Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. were behind western Europe not just
from the sixteenth-seventeenth centururies on but ever since we have
comparative data. And it had nothing to do with independence. Independent
countries--Russia, for example--didn't become a paragon of economic
development because it was independent and had a tsar of its own. Poland was
independent until the the end of the eighteenth century and where was that
great Polish economic breakthrough? Nowhere. It is very unlikely that
Hungary like an island in the sea of countries lagging behind in economic
development suddenly would have become an economic paradise, building a
happy nation state with a population the majority of whom was not Hungarian.

>That is my specific argument that the contacts existed to keep up with the
west,
> but these contacts were subsequently stifled.

        Stifled? How? The Habsburg king, like the Russian tsar, forbade his
subjects to go abroad? I have never heard of that before. Surely, you don't
mean that. You were just a little carried away.

>There are still extant paintings from those days from Hungary which are even
> today are as good as any Dutch paintings.

        It would be too long a list to name all the famous seventeenth- and
eighteen-century Dutch painters but there are dozens and dozens. I can think
of one Hungarian: Adam Manyoki. And even he died in Dresden. In order to
have great painters you need wealthy patrons. Wealthy patrons exist only in
wealthy nations. The Netherlands had its golden age during this period: the
financial center of the world and the center of world trade. Capital
accumulation, etc. None of that existed in Hungary and wouldn't have existed
with or without Rakoczi.

>You keep forgetting that the
> country was climing out of the hole of the continuous Turkish wars at the
time.

        No, I don't forget it. It certainly didn't help but read any modern
Hungarian history book, especially the kind which pays attention to
comparative data, and you will see that Hungary's development was behind the
west even before the Turkish wars.

>Eva, you can distort what I started out to propose and divert it into other
> subjects, other time periods, but so far you have brought up very little
> regarding the original proposition.

        I have been bringing up tons of stuff except you don't accept it.
You keep talking about this or that man studying in the Netherlands, or this
or that man writing an encyclopedia before Diderot and D'Alambert instead of
the essentials: lack of capital, lack of roads, lack of industry, lack of
urbanization, lack of cultural centers, lack of infrastructure, lack of
mobility, and so on and so forth. Too long a list to recite here.

>>Even if he brings up the names of all those excellent twentieth-century
>>physicists and mathematicians (including Pal Erdos) who were largely
>>responsible for the computer age it still doesn't prove a *general*
>>development (economic, technical, social) equal to that of Western Europe.
>
>Why would I? What it has to do with the subject? May I ask why you keep
bringing
> all these irrelevant statements into a reasonably defined discussion? If you
> brought the two Bolyais up, at least it could be more relevant.

        What do you mean that it has nothing to do with the discussion on
hand? It has everything to do with it. Because this is exactly what you are
doing talking about the seventeenth and the eighteenth centuries. You bring
up some names, mostly those who studied abroad, and by them you try to prove
that Hungary's wasn't behind the west.

        When I have a little time I will do a bit more reading on this
specific era until then I still doubt that Hungary as an independent country
would have fared better than as part of the empire. And here I am not even
mentioning the waxing problem of the nationalities. I doubt that more than
35% of the population was Hungarian at the time and the nationalities were
already reluctant to join Hungarian causes against Vienna. I remember of
listening to a Hungarian historian at Yale years ago who was an expert on
the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and the gist of his speech was that
there is plenty of documentary evidence to prove that the Slovaks were
already reluctant to join Thokoly's and Rakoczi's forces. (I am not sure
whether the article based on the speech was ever published. Yale's Russian
and East European Studies Program was planning to publish it, and I even
went through the manuscript to check the translation, but I don't think that
the program ever published the proceedings.)

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Suicide (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Norma Rudinsky writes:
>You're quite right that Slovak behavior is not very different,
>though I personally feel more optimistic about it because it seems based
>in great part on the growing pains associated with finally getting their
>own state, their name on the map, etc, and having to outgrow 19th century
>nationalism in the late 20th century of internationalism etc.

I am not seeing much outgrow of the nationalism of the XIX century, on the
contrary, it appears that more states are becoming nationalistic and trying
to assimilate different but indigent populations.

>Since the Hungarians have had those "advantages" for a millenium, I fear
>the behavior we're seeing on the net has a deeper cause in firstly a sort of
>perfectionism,
>defensiveness and martyr complex, fear of admitting error or mistakes,
>etc, which are explained by their history in a "sea of Germanism and
>Slavdom" etc, i.e. all the usual explanations.
>


>Secondly, I blame the failure of the Magyar language (i.e.its governors)
>to create a word equivalent to the Slavic uhorsko, uherske, etc for the
>Empire or Hungarian kingdom as a multi-national state, to distinguish it
>from mad'ar, mad'ersky for the nationality of magyars within that
>multinational state.  This failure has created a false image that
>everything in the old
>state belonged to the Magyar nation, and all the other peoples were just
>"minorities."  While common sense and common knowledge of the history deny
>the validity of that image, it still exists and creates a sort of
>"double-think" or double-bind that is conflicting to say the least.

I certainly would not call many events which occurred in the past in the
Carpathian basin as "advantages" to the magyars. The nationality based
disadvantages are of recent origin even within the lands of the Hungarian
crown. Secondly, I do not see the difference between "uhorsko" and
Magyarorszag. except for the capitalization. Basically both have exactly the
same meaning. The "ugor or uhor based words did not denominate any other
nationality but the magyars. If anything, at time the designation "the lands
of the Hungarian crown" did indicate that it was not solely that of magyars.
>
>Some of the fault lies in Herder's organic view of a nation as evolving
>toward some perfect expression of a people's soul, etc, which suggested
>that a nation had to be perfect, and which was the heart of much 19th
>century nationalism (and radical nationalism today too).  Therefore,
>"Magyarism (or Slovakhood) can't include any faults or
>mistakes."  More helpful, humane, and realistic is the view of the state
>as a contract to avoid problems and reduce the need to be perfect by
>checks and balances, etc.

I am not sure that Heider's definition caused the problem. It is behavior
that was defined by Herder that causes the nationalism.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Logic, Church, and State (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>         Both Louis and George talked about the lack of official statistics
> on religious affiliation in the censuses.

No, I did not, actually.  I had no idea whether the census contains a
question about religious affiliation or not.  What I mentioned was that
I cannot recall statistics that I have seen about religous affiliation,
quite apart from their source.

As for the need to collect such info in the census, I am not convinced
that it is so necessary.  Being a rather private issue, some people may
not want to disclose it (in Australia this is the only question that is
not compulsory to answer), and there are sufficient private polls in
Hungary nowadays to fill the gap with statistically reliable information.

George Antony
+ - Re: The 1700s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko wrote:

> 3) The reformation in fact started the spreading of culture in printed
> Hungarian and greatly increased the number of Hungarians (here I include the
> Transylvanians) who studied abroad also. Just for a brief list from the XVII
> century

>[...]
> Anonymus, Ohio State University
>[...]

Wow, now that is a man truly ahead of his time ;-)

Sorry, Jeliko, I could not resist, but I very much enjoyed your scholarly
piece, as always.

George Antony
+ - Re: The 1700s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 14:54 14/10/96 -0400, Jeliko wrote:
<vag vag>
>3) The reformation in fact started the spreading of culture in printed
>Hungarian and greatly increased the number of Hungarians (here I include the
>Transylvanians) who studied abroad also. Just for a brief list from the XVII
>century
<vag>
>Anonymus, Ohio State University
<vag>
He must have been the first foreign exchange student in the Colonies, eh,
Jeliko ;-) I guess that must be your little joke on us, yes? Or were you
just checking to see if we're actually reading your messages?

Seriously, though, I love this history stuff, so keep it up!

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:46 PM 10/14/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

>>        And what about the men who behave simply like "a bunch of noise
>>men." And stupid men at that.
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>>
>>Eva (I don't dare to call you "Dear".What is happening here all of a sudden?
>The religious right brought up this abortion issue,and all of a sudden you
>turn on men?Stupid too.

        No, not because he brought up the abortion issue, but because anyone
who talks about women as Zoli Szekely does must be stupid. I don't want to
hear him talk about "noisy women," especially since these noisy women seem
to have more brains in their little fingers than Zoli Szekely in his big
head. This is outrageous attitude toward women and I have no intention of
tolerating it without telling him exactly what I think.

        As far as abortion is concerned, I agree with Johanne that it is a
very poor way of birth control but unfortunately--whether it is in this
country or in Hungary--it is being used as means of birth control. But
abolishing it is not going to stop the practice. It will make it much more
dangerous.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Autumn Leaves (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>"Autumn Leaves: An Hungarian Love Story" will be aired next Sunday,
October
>20, on the CBC radio network across Canada.  It will be a part of
"Sunday
>Morning" which is broadcast every Sunday from 9am to 12noon.
>
>"Autumn Leaves" is the story of Andras and Zsuzsi.  They met in Budapest
in
>1952 and fell in love with each other.  In 1956, when they were only 18
>years old, they fled Hungary.  Andras ended up in England and Zsuzsi in
>Canada.  They both married and raised a family but never forgot about
each
>other.  Then, many years later......
>
>By the way, from the brief excerpt I heard this morning, it is a true
story.
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe, maybe you could tell us the continuation of the story, after you
have listened to it.  I will be baby-sitting next weekend, so I won't be
able to listen to stories on the radio.  Thanks in advance.  Regards,
Agnes
+ - Re: the Right & abortion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:53 PM 10/14/96 -0300, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>BTW, if by definition, only men can leave their wives, it appears to me to
>be an unrealistic proposition to state that "only men can leave their
>wives." The way it was phrased earlier seemed to me to tar men with too
>broad a brush. The phrase *dead-beat dads* is quite common - but in my 11
>years of practising law, I have seen many cases where the wives left the
>husbands - and even left the kids with the husbands. And in *very* few of
>those cases did I ever see the wives paying child support for the children.
>So, it appears to me that at least here in Canada (and I think this is true
>in the U.S. as well), the system has swung too far in favour of protection
>of the females and works to the unfair disadvantage of guys.

I stand corrected. Although I know of a few cases when mothers abandoned
their children (and husband), it was my impression that the motherly
instinct is much stronger than that of a father and that most wives who
leave their husbands do it to escape abuse.

I (and I think most people) agree with what you wrote about abortion. The
problem is that most young people are either too inexperienced or too
passionate to use birth control and the pregnancy happens. And I caution you
to look at what happened in Romania, where Ceausescu prohibited all abortion
by a decree in 1966. The horrible scenes you saw about orphanages full of
AIDS-children were a result of that decree.

As far as I know the rate of abortion in Hungary was very high in the past
decades. My bet is that with the revival of the churches and with the
decline of free medical care this rate is decreasing.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Suicide (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko, to my view your answer illustrates the problem with the words
Uhorsko and Mad'arsko, or Magyarorszag.  For you any word from uhor,
ugro, etc means Magyar, which is etymologically right, of course, but the
point is that Slavs (at least Czechs and Slovaks) created a new meaning
for Uhorsko to refer to the multinational kingdom in which they could have a
place without being assimilated to the Magyar ethnic part of the
kingdom.  Without that same recognition of ethnic differences and rights
(not just an inferior position as "minorities") by the Magyars in the
"crown lands", the Slavs of Hungary had to feel they had no real place
there.  Notice that this happened in fact long before Herder and 19th c
nationalism.

My basic psychological point is that it is intellectually crippling not
to have a word that expresses a recognized actually existing reality or
fact.  Most Hungarians know the statistics of the Kingdom, but the
language doesn't admit those statistics.  (I recognize that the millenial
useage of one word for both the national (Magyar)  element of the Hungarian
crown and the multinational dynastic aspect now makes it hard to change, but
that's what reality checks are for, isn't it?)

I'm reminded of an old pre-Vatican II joke about St Peter showing
Baptists, Methodists, etc through Heaven.  They asked why he was
tiptoeing past a large room.  "Oh, those are the Catholics.  They think
they are the only ones here."


I wrote:

> >Secondly, I blame the failure of the Magyar language (i.e.its governors)
> >to create a word equivalent to the Slavic uhorsko, uherske, etc for the
> >Empire or Hungarian kingdom as a multi-national state, to distinguish it
> >from mad'ar, mad'ersky for the nationality of magyars within that
> >multinational state.  This failure has created a false image that
> >everything in the old
> >state belonged to the Magyar nation, and all the other peoples were just
> >"minorities."  While common sense and common knowledge of the history deny
> >the validity of that image, it still exists and creates a sort of
> >"double-think" or double-bind that is conflicting to say the least.
>
>

Jeliko wrote:

  Secondly, I do not see the difference between "uhorsko" and
> Magyarorszag. except for the capitalization. Basically both have exactly the
> same meaning. The "ugor or uhor based words did not denominate any other
> nationality but the magyars. If anything, at time the designation "the lands
> of the Hungarian crown" did indicate that it was not solely that of magyars.
>


Hope this makes my point clearer.

Norma
+ - Re: the Right & abortion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>At 20:00 12/10/96 -0700, Louis Elteto wrote, responding to Gabor's comment
><sznippetry>
>>>This argument can only be ad genus, since only men can leave their wives
>>>and children, etc. Therefore, I suggest that only those should resent it
>>>(or rather feel ashamed) who did those things. Gabor D. Farkas
>>
>>Why, then, aim at the whole genus?
>>Louis Elteto

>BTW, if by definition, only men can leave their wives, it appears to me to
>be an unrealistic proposition to state that "only men can leave their
>wives." The way it was phrased earlier seemed to me to tar men with too
>broad a brush. The phrase *dead-beat dads* is quite common - but in my 11
>years of practising law, I have seen many cases where the wives left the
>husbands - and even left the kids with the husbands. And in *very* few of
>those cases did I ever see the wives paying child support for the children.
>So, it appears to me that at least here in Canada (and I think this is true
>in the U.S. as well), the system has swung too far in favour of protection
>of the females and works to the unfair disadvantage of guys.
>
>Also, BTW, I didn't mean to comment on the abortion thread, but since I am
>here anyway - since men are one-half of the biological mix that it takes to
>create a child, I think men *should* be allowed to have a say in the
>development of regulations governing abortions. While I agree in principle
>with the idea that a woman should be able to govern what happens to her
>body, I cannot help but feel that  in 99% of the cases, the abortion was
>obtained because the pregnancy was inconvenient. There are better ways to
>avoid having to bear a child - using birth control for one - and, hey,
>whatever happened to abstinence???? Basically, I think abortion is murder,
>no matter how you try to sidestep the issue - remember a foetus at three
>months is a perfectly formed little human being who even sucks his thumb in
>the womb. There maybe reasons that society should allow *limited* and
>controlled abortions (I agree it's better than having back-alley abortions)
>but I think people should not be able to avoid acknowledging the reality of
>what they are doing.
>
>What do I do about Hungarian content on this one? Would it be Hungarian
>enough if I were Hungarian? All I can say is that I guess these are issues
>that are as relevant in Hungary as elsewhere -and if the rate of suicide is
>any indication, I would suspect that the rate of abortions is quite high in
>Hungary as well, as a corollary of the apparent pessimism of the people.
>Does anyone have any statistics on this??
>
>Sorry to digress at length on what for me is a distressing topic.

Johanne/Janka, I'm not sorry that you made this *digression*. Thank you
for the sanest posting so far on what has hitherto been an embarrassingly
inane thread!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
+ - Re: Suicide in Hungary (Balogh the hypocrite) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>At 02:46 PM 10/14/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
>>>        And what about the men who behave simply like "a bunch of noise
>>>men." And stupid men at that.
>>>        Eva Balogh
>>>
>>>Eva (I don't dare to call you "Dear".What is happening here all of a
>>>sudden?
>>The religious right brought up this abortion issue,and all of a sudden you
>>turn on men?Stupid too.
>
>        No, not because he brought up the abortion issue, but because
>anyone who talks about women as Zoli Szekely does must be stupid <snip>..

You mean the way you vilified ALL MEN on the *abortion* thread?? You
hypocrite!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC

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