Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 927
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-02-27
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Flower Dictionary (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
4 Thank you for the Flower Dictionery (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  112 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: welfare state and farmers' blockade Re: HUNGARY.092 (mind)  168 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Flower Dictionary (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: welfare state and farmers' blockade Re: HUNGARY.092 (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
15 Testing (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
17 ICJ location (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: "Winemaking" (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Who reads what (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
21 HL-Action: Support students attending lawsuit (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
22 The ways of Ferenc - (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Who reads what (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: "Winemaking" (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
26 HL-Action: Support students attending lawsuit (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
27 the Pecs - wine debate (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: welfare state and farmers' blockade Re: HUNGARY.092 (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: the Pecs - wine debate (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
34 About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  104 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...


>Agnes-
>
>Kezet csokolom.  Actually, there are vast numbers of Canadians that
cross
>the border because, although they have money, what they do not have is
>time.  People, I am told, die on the waiting lists for medical treatment
>in Canada.  I find this believable, especially when I hear that there
are
>more MRI gizmos in the state of Utah than in the whole country to the
>North.
>
>I am aware, though, that large numbers of people love the Canadian
medical
>system, as no doubt they love the Swedish one, etc.  The problem is not
>that there are no good things about socialized medicine.  The problem is
>that without a capitalist system to generate competition for clients,
the
>entire health-care system rejects research as too expensive, then fails
to
>pay doctors what they earn, then fails to allow for timely treatment of
>patients.  Most of the medical advances are currently coming out of the
>capitalist system, where new pharmaceuticals and technology are keys to
>profitability.  Hungary has, per capita, the smartest population in the
>world.  Why do Hungarians have to emigrate to get the funding for
>research?
>
>In Hungary medicare was always only theoretically free.  We always had
to tip the doctors and nurses generously in my time, and then, my mother
said the same thing while she was alive.

I pointed out that medicare in Canada is far from being perfect.  But my
family doctor was always there for me when I needed him.  My husband has
a pre-senile dementia and if I think about the tremendous amount of tests
and scans, speech therapy, etc. he went through which was entirely paid
by medicare, I am very grateful, indeed.  I am even getting home care now
so I can get out once a week for 4 hours.  Unfortunately, there is no
cure and that was confirmed to me by the foremost specialist in the field
whom I found at the Chicago Northwestern University via the Net.

Yes, there is a long wait for non-essential operations.  20 years ago I
had a torn cartilage and I had to wait 3 months to get operated on.
Probably I would have travelled to the US also, had I tens of thousands
of dollars to have it done there.

Agnes
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>
>At 08:26 PM 2/25/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>>which begs the question -- why not leave the money in the hands of
those
>>>who earned it, and let them pay for those services they use.
Elsewise,
>>>you have people who don't get sick being forced (taxes are compulsory)
>>to
>>>pay the hospital costs of those that do, and those with no children
>>>supporting the education of the offspring of others.
>>>
>>Kristof, I live in Canada and I have to say that I am enormously
grateful
>>for medicare.  I hear horror stories about what is happening if someone
>>becomes seriously - or even not so seriously - ill in the US.  It is
>>great in the US if you young and healthy.  Yes, we pay a lot of taxes
and
>>medicare is not perfect, but I wouldn't like to get sick in the US!
>>
>>Agnes
>>
>>Agnes:az a fellow canadian,I am vorried what is going to happen to our
>medicare.
>If you hear and see all the hospital closing,nurses being laid off,I
realy
>wonder about our healthcare.Just watch,and see what is going on in
Ontario.
>In the mean time the banks are getting more and more profitable,the
children
>will suffer,the oldtimers will suffer,and many more.
>Is there realy any hope?Andy.

Andy, is this also going on in Montreal?  Yes, I am also worried about
the hospital closings and overworked doctors and nurses.

Agnes
+ - Re: Flower Dictionary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>Many thanks to those who responded last week to my post about the
proposed
>Flower Dictionary. Even though my mail box did not get flooded with
>comments and suggestions, as Joe Szalai predicted, I am encouraged to
post
>again to describe how things going.
>
>The following four new flowers has been added to the list:
>
>Centaurea cyanus
>   Bachelor's-button, blue cornflower  Ke'k bu'zavira'g
>Colchicum arenarium
>   Common crocus, medow saffron        Homoki kikirics
>Galanthus nivalis
>   Snowdrops                           Ho'vira'g
>Ranunculus repens
>   Creeping buttercup                  Bogla'rka
>
>I am still searching for the common English name of these flowers:
>
>   Consolida                           Szarkala'b
>   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
>   Ocimum                              Bazsalikom
>   Polianthes Tuberosa                 Tubaro'zsa
>   Sempervivum                         Ko"vira'g
>   Stipa                               A'rvala'nyhaj
>
I am not sure, but isn't basil = bazsalikom, and begonia is the
sempervivum?  I know it is semperflorens, that why I think it is may be
the same thing.  Ha nem, nem er a nevem!

Agnes
>and for the common Hungarian name of these flowers:
>
>   Angelica                            Angelica
>   Aruncus                             Goat's beard
>   Coronilla varia                     Crown vetch
>   Delphinium                          Delphinium
>   Geranium sanguineum                 Crane's bill
>   Liatris                             Gay feather
>
>I hope to conclude this effort in about two weeks. When completed I will
>deposit it in the HIX Documentar, so anybody who wants it can retrieve
it,
>or alternatively I will mail it to those who ask for it.
>
>Barna Bozoki
+ - Thank you for the Flower Dictionery (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A VIRAGOK  (by Petofi Sandor)

Ki a mezore ballagok,
Hol fu kozott virag terem,
Viragok, szep viragaim,
Be kedvesek vagytok nekem!
 .....................................................
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:

>the border because, although they have money, what they do not have is
>time.  People, I am told, die on the waiting lists for medical treatment
>in Canada.  I find this believable, especially when I hear that there are
>more MRI gizmos in the state of Utah than in the whole country to the
>North.

Can anyone tell me why a rich people has more right to live than a poor
one? Maybe I sound like socialist, but I think medical issues should be
treated based on urgency, seriousness of the problem and 'first come first
served'. As far as I know there is always more patient than available
service (more patient waiting for transplantation than available organ).
Maybe those who cross the border to the US actually take the place of
those american who are not able to afford the treatment.

J.Zs

P.S: Of course I know 'penz beszel, a kutya ugat', but still I don't
have to like it!
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well, that was bound to happen.  Frankly, I am impressed by the restraint
everyone showed, and the effort made by Agnes to illustrate her point with a
concrete example.  She strikes me as an eminently reasonable person and
someone I am going to enjoy getting to know.  Agnes, I hope the reverse is
true.

Ah, where to start?

  >>People, I am told, die on the waiting lists for medical treatment
>>in Canada.  I find this believable, especially when I hear that there are
>>more MRI gizmos in the state of Utah than in the whole country to the
>>North.

>You can keep your system and we'll keep and improve ours.  And, oh yes, a
>few people may have died on waiting lists.  However, do you know, or even
>want to know, that our lists were made long, because, several years ago,
>many people from Buffalo, Detroit and other neighbouring cities and States
>were illegally (ie: pretending they were Canadian!) crossing the border to
>get good, and free!, medical coverage in Canada.  Ontario has now gone to
>photo id to stop this problem.  If your system is so god-damn good, why do
>your citizens resort to abusing ours?

>Joe Szalai

Joe, it's obvious.  They abuse your system because for them, it's less
expensive. Canada has artificially low medical costs (ala Hungary) because
the government dictates the price.  Aren't you having trouble keeping your
doctors, Joe? Personally, I think crossing the border is wrong, and I wish
you every success in putting all these people in jail.  Better yet, fine them
the cost of similar care in the U.S., doubled.  That should work.  The thing
is, time is as costly as money to many people.  In the U.S., you can have
your operation anytime if you have the money.  In Canada, you often cannot
have the operation at all even if you have millions.  Is there a compromise?
 Perhaps, but you may depend on the government to ignore it.

>Reading the above, I can only conclude that Kristof has been seriously
>brainwashed.  And, as with most brainwashed people, he doesn't know it.  The
>only vindication for his condition, is to convince the rest of us that he's
>right.  He's not.  His argument is just money-babble.

>Joe Szalai

Attack ad hominem, Joe?  You can do better than that.  Money, like it or not,
drives the economy.  Hungarian potatoes are cheap, because there are lots of
them.  Hungarian medical care is expensive, because it is scarce.
 Artificially drive down the price of something, you get overconsumption and
shortages, which, in a free market, drives the price back up and encourages
production, which lowers the price again.  Or don't they teach this stuff in
Canada?  This is hardly rocket science.  It will work with roadside lemonade
stands and nuclear arms.  And it works fine with medical care, too, if the
government stays the heck out of it.

>Agnes:az a fellow canadian,I am vorried what is going to happen to our
>medicare.
>If you hear and see all the hospital closing,nurses being laid off,I realy
>wonder about our healthcare.Just watch,and see what is going on in Ontario.
>In the mean time the banks are getting more and more profitable,the children
>will suffer,the oldtimers will suffer,and many more.
>Is there really any hope?Andy.

Andy, you do make an unfortunate point.  I always think there is hope, but I
cannot believe that the healthcare system, either Canadian or American, can
continue as it is.  American insurance companies, abetted by Washington, are
propping up health costs and pricing the average man out of the market.
 Canadian social-medicine, propped up by Ottawa, are forcing prices down and
are therefore unable to keep the hospitals open.  Incidentally, my insurance
in America is catastrophic, so I pay for everything up to $7500 myself.
Because I pay cash, I shop around, and the doctors here fight for my
patronage the same way the grocery stores do -- by chopping their prices.
 Novel idea.  All I can say is that it works.  And I have 3 children under 5.
 We paid for the babies in cash.  It hurt.  We saved for two years per kid
just to meet the cost.  But we DID do it, and it WAS possible, and it DOES
work.

>Unfortunately, I have to leave NOW for Budapest for a few days, have to
>have catch my plane and no time to discuss with Kristof, what I4d love.
>Again, I AM a preacher of the MARKET and, if you like, of (differentiated)
>capitalism. Arguments like the ones of Kristof make us life difficult and
>convince people of leftist ideas, which I not not share.
>Regards
>Miklos

I apologize to Miklos if he thinks he is being shot in the back by those on
his own side of the line.  Not knowing what he means by "differentiated
capitalism", I cannot tell if his fear is justified.  I, too wish that he had
time to discuss with us, so that I may discern the "leftist" ideas I am
convincing people of.  I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.  Some
things work.  Some things don't work.  Some things work a little and have to
be tinkered with.  It's as simple as that.  Truly free markets work.  Planned
economies do not work.  American-style capitalism works a little and needs to
be tinkered with.  As does Canadian-style capitalism.  As does whatever the
Hungarian-style economy is called this week.  I'll be surprised, Joe, if you
don't agree with the last three.

Incidentally, Joe, you said that Canadians would continue to improve their
medical system.  What improvements were you thinking of?  I know Canada's
medical system is admired a great deal all over the world, and very much in
America, too, more's the pity, but there you are.  I'd like to know what you
consider to be the problems that could use improving (I have a fairly long
list for America, myself).

Where is the current Hungarian medical system these days, along the spectrum
from "free" care in the 1980's to "pay for everything yourself?"  All my
Hungarian doctor friends moved to the west, where they could get paid for
what they do, and I am short on up-to-date info from Magyarorszag on the
medical situation.

Somehow I feel like this won't be the last post on this subject.

Udvozlettel mindenkinek,

Kristof
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-26 23:52:25 EST, Agnes writes:

<< Yes, there is a long wait for non-essential operations.  20 years ago I
 had a torn cartilage and I had to wait 3 months to get operated on.
 Probably I would have travelled to the US also, had I tens of thousands
 of dollars to have it done there. >>

20 years ago, I can well believe that this was a problem.  That sort of
surgery was new and very expensive, the same way top-of-the-line anything is
expensive.  However, the wait for surgery in Canada is still 3 months, while
in the U.S.,  arthroscopic surgery is so common now that it costs less than
$1000 and is done on an outpatient basis.  The money was good, so lots of
people learned to do it, which increased the supply, which lowered the price.
 Presto!  The market strikes again.

Actually, if the price was not supported by government regulation of
insurance, the actual cost would be closer to $300.  No waiting.  America
does have some work to do, obviously.

I am truly sorry about your husband, Agnes.  I hope he does not suffer, and I
hope you do not, either, though it can't be easy for you.  You are remarkable
to have dealt with this disease for twenty years and retained your easy,
friendly manner.  Situations like this do tax the resources of anyone, but as
you prove, love is stronger than any disaster.  I admire your courage a great
deal.

Best wishes,

Kristof
+ - Re: welfare state and farmers' blockade Re: HUNGARY.092 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!
I saw you making the comment that "But I can't
imagine any country where after your first 6,000 dollars you don't pay anything
."  In Australia the income tax thrashhold is $5000 of taxable income and if yo
ur income is consistently below that you do not even lodge a tax return. If you
 are a pensioner then your pension is tax exempt.


Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Eva S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Thursday, 27 February 1997 9:01
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: welfare state and farmers' blockade Re: HUNGARY.0924

At 04:18 PM 2/26/97 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote, quoting me:

>> [...]  I cannot agree more. But in Europe a form of welfare state developed
>> in the last thirty or forty years which takes away about fifty percent of
>> one's earnings and "redistributes" them in forms of social services.
>> [...]
        And then Magda continued:

>I would like to call attention to a difference between Western Europe
>and Hungary as far as "welfare state" is concerned. It is true that in
>Western Europe the state has taken a large percentage of one's
>earnings and redistributing them in forms of social services. The
>situation in Hungary was and is somewhat different. When socialism was
>introduced in Hungary -- in the late forties and at the beginning
>of the fifties -- then the state -- or more exactly, the party --
>declared that it is not necessary that people get all their earnings,
>because the state will take care of their needs. So wages were fixed
>on a rather low level saying that the costs of health-care, pensions,
>children's care, housing and so on will be covered by the state, so it
>is not necessary to include the costs of them in the wages.

        This is, of course, basically right, but I would like to use a bit
more exact description than "So wages were fixed on a rather low level
saying that the costs of health-care, pensions, children's care, housing and
so on will be covered by the state." Yes, wages were fixed low but prices
were also fixed low. This was an economic model which we normally refer to
as "centrally planned economy," where wages and prices have nothing to do
with market forces. They have nothing to do with supply and demand and
therefore totally devoid of any meaning. There was a Plan Office
(Tervhivatal) whose job it was to set production quotas and fix prices from
bread to energy.
        As it turned out this centrally planned economy was unable to
function properly and adjustments had to be made. At the end of the 1960s
certain economic reforms took place which liberated some of the factories
from the fixed production quotas (but fifty or so factories, considered
important, remained under central authority) and liberated some of the
prices but not prices which the regime considered to be vital to the living
standards of the population. As a result, the economy picked up somewhat but
at the same time inflation also raised its ugly head because basically the
economy remained a command economy and an economy of scarcity.
        But to return to Magda's point: yes, the wages were low but the
whole price structure also remained low and, I guess, as long as that system
remained in force the two were in balance. Magda is also right about the
fiddling with the system from the late 1960s on, trying to make it more
effective by allowing some price fluctuation and giving more leeway to
factories concerning production quotas. This, of course, upset the neat
balance between prices and wages, yet, overall, the purchasing power of wage
earners rose through the seventies and early eighties.
        So far I was talking about wages and prices. But what about the
welfare system? Professor Janos Kornai called the Hungarian socialist
economy "premature welfare state." As far as I can ascertain without raising
taxes inordinately directly or indirectly more and more social benefits were
added to the welfare package, starting with including agricultural workers
into the state pension plan and ending with allowing new mothers to stay
home with their children for three years with 75% of their wages. More and
more people ended up on the disability rolls, and so on and so forth. Most
of this was financed from foreign loans. The results of these borrowings are
only too well today. The repayment of these loans is perhaps the largest
obstacle to economic growth in Hungary since the change of regime.
        But returning to the troubles of today. Yes, wages are low mostly
because the state is so strapped for money and still an awful lot of people
are on the government rolls: teachers and doctors, just to mention two
important professions. But the flight from government service is great. I
just read somewhere that the lawyers who remained with the Ministry of
Justice are not on the top of their professions. All the good people left
for the private sector. The private sector's salaries are, of course, are
higher. And, by the way, as long as public employees have such a large share
of the employment pie and as long as the state has practically no money
wages are not going to increase.

>Summarizing, IMHO the Hungarian situation is different from that of
>Western Europe in that respect that in Hungary people never received
>their real earnings. But now the state is taking from the people
>something they never really received.

        But Magda, the trouble is that given the artificial situation we
don't know what that "real earnings" actually were!! In a world where prices
and wages are fixed we have no way of attaching a real, meaningful price to
labor or products for that matter.

        In connection with the road blockade of the vintners of Kiskoros:

>IMHO I would not be so sure that the farmers are so well off. A few
>days ago the Central Office for Statistics in Hungary produced the
>following data: the minimum subsistence level was in Hungary 15.000
>HUF/month (at about 86 USD/month) in the year 1996. 2.5-3 million
>people are living below that level. Many of them are peasants living
>in villages.

        IMHO, the statistics when it comes to income of private farmers are
practically useless. The poor Central Statistical Office simply has no data
because the  private farmers never had to fill out any meaningful, itemized
income tax forms. It was enough to present a piece of paper, saying "our
gross income was 850,000 Fts," and that was that! Not only that but by not
filling out itemized forms the central authorities have no idea from what
crops the money came from.

>As far as I know the 1 million income mentioned in the papers was
>gross income and not net income.

        I think I mentioned the fact that it was gross income. But I can't
imagine any country where after your first 6,000 dollars you don't pay anything
.

>According to a spokesperson of the
>farmers the farmers state that they need to produce at about 1.6
>million HUF gross income/year in order to reach the minimum
>subsistence level (considering taxation, social security and
>expenditures). Of course I am in no position to confirm their
>calculations.

        Well, yes, this is what they say. However, as it turns out
"cooperatives" don't have that privilege; they have pay taxes and social
security on all their earned income. The leaders of the cooperatives
complained bitterly, saying that it was unfair. Well, I think also that it
is unfair. It is also unfair to you, Magda, who has to pay relatively more
than they have to. You are carrying their share of the tax burden.

>> Result: fighting tooth and nail and
>> organizing road blocks all over Hungary. Meanwhile, they refuse to negotiate
>> with the government. Their representative simply don't show up because they
>> know that a roadblockade will be devastating for the country and sooner or
>> later the government will give in.
>
>The road blockade of the farmers this week was rather different from
>that of the "taxi drivers' blockade" in 1990.  The present road
>blockade -- in contrast to the "taxi drivers' blockade" -- was not
>devastating for the country. Then the taxi, bus and lorry drivers
>really blocked all the main bridges, roads and border stations and
>there was practically no traffic possible for several days in the
>country. Now the farmers blocked only a traffic lane of the roads and
>only in given places -- several dozen places all over the country --
>so traffic was only slowed down but was not made impossible.

        However, they threatened to do a little more if the government
doesn't cave in. And, by the way, in case anyone is in doubt: the change in
the tax law was duly voted on by parliament; it wasn't some kind of
government fiat!

>News from this morning: last night the representatives of the farmers
>and the representatives of the government reached an agreement in
>Kiskoros (a small town near the Danube southwards of Budapest).  The
>representatives of the government had to go to Kiskoros for the
>negotiations.

        Yes, because the wine-growers refused to go the ministry. They knew
that they had the upper hand.

        Greetings, Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!
I wonder whether I may be sensing a case of cold feet on the part of the USA an
d may be Canada based on the realisation of the potential cost if this exercise
.
While it was a case of promises those promises cost nothing or very little to t
he USA but plenty to the countries wanting to join, such as Hungary, who were t
old of the stringent conditions set by the IMF. Now that the conditions are in 
the process of being met, suddenly there is a realisation that there is a cost 
involved and perhaps such expansion, whether of NATO or of the European Communi
ty, is not such a good idea after all.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Joe Szalai[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 26 February 1997 10:56
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  The Cost of NATO expansion

I'm posting the following article, published in today's Record
(Kitchener-Waterloo), only because Gabor Farkas and Kristof
) resent paying taxes.
______________________

Expanded NATO could cost Canada megabucks

Canada faces a dramatic increase in defence expenditures when the North
Atlantic Treaty Organization expands eastward.

A study made public by the U.S. government Monday estimated the total cost
of enlarging the military alliance to the countries of Eastern Europe is
expected to be $27 billion to $35 billion US between 1997 and 2009, the
Globe and Mail reported today in a story from Washington.

The study said the new members of NATO that are to be admitted at the Madrid
summit in July will bear 35 per cent of that cost.

The United States will bear 15 per cent and the other 15 current members,
including Canada, will share the remaining 50 per cent.

The details have not yet been negotiated but Canada would probably be
required to pay about six per cent of the total, or between $45 million and
$59 million a year for 12 years.

Canada, one of the strongest proponents of NATO enlargement, budgeted $9.9
billion for defence for 1997-98, and only $145.3 million for NATO.

That is a reduction of almost $6 million from previous NATO contributions.
There is no reference to the projected costs of NATO enlargement in the
current Defence Department expenditure projections.

Last week, Prime Minister Jean Chretien urged that Romania, Slovenia and
Slovakia be admitted to the alliance.
________________________________

Now, if Canadians started thinking the way Gabor and Kristof do, we could
save a lot of money.  We could say that it's our money, we earned it, we
worked very hard for it, charity begins at home, and other mindless,
self-serving mantras, we'd do all right.  No?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sure, Joe.  You could certainly save a lot of money by just shutting down
the military.  Canada could then play Japan to America, and save the cost
of building a real armed forces.  But nobody is suggesting this, and I
apologize if I gave the impression that there are not things I think taxes
do well.

Taxes do better for me what it is impossible for me to do for myself, such
as defend an entire country.  I do not have the expertise to handle such
things.  I hope never to have.  There are other things taxes do not do so
well, such as deciding for me how fast I may drive on the highway.  Or
which doctors I may see, and how much my wages have to drop to pay for my
"free" medical care.  Or invest for my retirement (Social Security, Heaven
save it, gets a -2.25% return annually during the longest bull market in
history).  These are decisions I can make for myself better than anyone in
Washington.

No way in the world am I going to defend NATO.  Hungarian participation
should be based on economic advantages, not military ones, because there
will be none.  If it makes no sense economically, Hungary shouldn't do it.
 NATO is a dinosaur.  I'm one of those weird people that thinks that if
the U.S. had brought everyone home from Europe in 1960, the cold war would
have been over thirty years ago.

Hungary can expect from NATO's military forces exactly what they got in
1956. NATO has neither the desire nor the huevos to use the armor it has.
Your thoughts, Joe?  What does Canada think about all this?

Udv.

Kristof
+ - Re: Flower Dictionary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Joe and Gabor!

At 06:56 26/02/97 -0500, Joe wrote:
>At 09:22 PM 2/25/97 -0500, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:
>
><snip>
>>According to the Magyar Ertelmezo Szotar "csicso'ka" is an industrial and
>>fodder- plant (this does not sound right, but it is from Orszagh for
>>takarmany noveny),  related to the sunflower (called napraforgo' in
>>Hungarian). According to this source it has edible roots.
>
>Orszagh may be referring to "Jerusalem Artichokes", which are in the same
>family.  Actually, they resemble small sunflowers.  And yes, the roots are
>edible, cooked or raw.  They're really very good.  They taste a bit like
>potatoes.
>
>Joe Szalai

I think you are absolutely right. Those are Jerusalem Artichokes, which are
related to sunflowers and look a bit like them. I have grown them and found
the tubers delicious to eat. I believe they are supposed to be even
healthier for people to eat than potatoes!

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: welfare state and farmers' blockade Re: HUNGARY.092 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:54 PM 2/27/97 +1100, Denes wrote:
>Hello!
>I saw you making the comment that "But I can't
>imagine any country where after your first 6,000 dollars you don't pay
anything."  In Australia the income tax thrashhold is $5000 of taxable
income and if your income is consistently below that you do not even lodge a
tax return. If you are a pensioner then your pension is tax exempt.

        Good for you, people in Australia. But you see you can't compare
Australia or the United States (where, I think, it is 2,000) to Hungary.
Australia's GDP in 1994 was over $18,000/person. The United States's over
$25,000. Hungary's was 5,000. The average income today is 45,000 Fts./month!
After the negotiations we are no longer talking about 6,000 dollars; we are
talking about 8,500.

        Here is a short article from Vilaggazdasag, which I consider to be
perhaps the best daily paper in Hungary. After a short first paragraph:

        "A szikar tenyek a kovetkezok: 1997 januar elsejetol a magyar
agrarvallalkozokat a szabalyok megprobaljak ugyanugy kezelni, mint a tobbi
magyar nem agrarvallalkozot. Az a ko:r, amelyik eddig kistermelokent
dolgozott, januar elsejetol mar nem tartozik es nem is tartozhat a
biztositottak koze. Kulon megallapodas alapjan, ha megfizet erte,
gyujtogetheti szolgalati eveit a nyugdijhoz, am teppenzre nem jogosult, es
neki is at kell utalnia az 1800 forintos egeszsegugyi hozzajarulast.
        A januar elsejei korszakhatar az adoszabalyokat is modositotta.
Eddig a kistermeles evi egymillio forintos arbevetelig adomentes volt, s az
e folott bevetelnek is csak 30 (novenytermesztes), illetve 10
(allattenyesztes) szazalekat tekintette jovedelemnek a hatosag; ezen
osszegeket szemelyenkent kell erteni, s a szemelyek akar csecsemokori
csaladtagok is lehettek. Ez a mult--a jelen azonban nem sokkal szigorubb. A
beveteleket peldaul nem kibocsatott szamlakkal, hanem egy kockas fuzetbe
rott foljegyzessel is elegendo igazolni, az arbevetel negyven szazalekat
bizonylat nelkul el lehet szamolni koltsegkent, a jovedelmet hozza kell adni
az osszes tobbihez, de ha az adotobblet kevesebb, mint 100 ezer forint,
akkor nem kell megfizetni--diohejban ez es ennyi az uj torvenyek lenyege,
annyi kiegeszitessel, hogy ostermelo csak 16 evesnel idosebb szemely lehet.
A kormanyzati cel vilagos: raszoritani az agrarvallalkozot arra, hogy
kiadasaikrol szamlat kerjenek, amivel viszont tagabbra nyighato az a kor,
akitol ado szedheto: a bertraktorosok, a mutragya-kereskedok es a
mezogazdasag mas hatterszolgaltatoi eddig zsebbol zsebbe kaptak a penzt. Meg
egy fontos valtozas van minden eddigihez kepest: az amugy laza szabalyok
kedvezmenyezettjei kozul kimaradtak mindazok, akik nem
alapanyag-eloallitast, hanem kistermelest vegeznek--a szolosgazdak emiatt a
megmergesebbek, nem veletlen, hogy ok szervezik a demonstraciot is,
tudniillik ok ezentul nem kis(os)termelok, es boreladasbol szarmazo beveteik
utan nem jar nekik adokedvezmeny.
        Magyarorszagon a bejegyzett 100 ezer beteti tarsasagbol 100 ezer
orulne (meg a kft.-k, reszvenytarsasagok, egyeni vallalkozok), ha az allam
ilyen merteku nagyvonalusaggal tenne lehetove a kiadasok elszamolasat, s
adna meg pluszban ekkora adokedvezmenyt--a mai viszonyok kozott egyetlen mas
reteg sincs ennyire megkulonboztetetten elonyben reszesitve. Azok a
pinceszetek, szovetkezetek es mas tarsasagok, amelyek eddig is komoly
versenyhatranyban voltak a szamlaadasra nem kotelezett egyeni
kis(bor)termelo gazdakkal szemben, ugy velik, ezekre az intezkedesekre mar
sokkal korabban szukseg lett volna. Akad, aki ugy fogalmaz: epp eleg, hogy
az allam elturi a minosegi kovetelmenyeknek olykor meg nem felelo kannas
bort, de tamogatnia talan megsem kellene--ebben is van igazsag....
        Ma tehat tuntetnek a szolosgazdak--ki-ki eldontheti, veluk van-e,
vagy sem."


        END. Well, I am not with them but it is somewhat late. The
government caved the day before yesterday. As far as the tax exemption under
$6,000/8,500 is concerned it is not by household but by members of
household, including babes in arms. Thus a family of four didn't pay taxes
not on $6,000 but on $24,000. As for bookkeeping, the new law didn't demand
sales slips but simply a list of expenses which could be even written down
in an ordinary school notebook. They refused that too. Well, tell me!! Is
this a  a real cause in today's Hungary where there are many truly poor
people which anyone of us should support? I doubt it but, of course, the
opposition thought that it was a good opportunity. I don't even blame them
but considering that they are the noisiest about poverty in Hungary it is
somewhat ironic that they support this particular group of wine-growers
whose practices are questionable at best and who refuse to be treated on
equal footing with the rest of society.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:12 PM 2/26/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:

<snip>
>Joe:you are right about false Ohip cards,but I think the NDP talked about
>photoID cards,but since then nothing happened.
>It is a good idea,but according to Mike Harris,it cost too much.
>Than he couldn't cut taxes,wich is why we will get less and less service in
>Ontario.
>Am I right?Andy.

Yes, you're right, Andy.  I forgot that the Conservative government
cancelled the photo-id programme.  And why?  Well, I believe that the
Ontario government wants to ruin medicare.  They want to drive it into the
ground.  Then they can tell us that it's too expensive and doesn't work.
And after that, they can set up a system for the rich and another one for
the rest of us.  In short, they want to Americanize medicare.  And they have
the federal Liberal government's (sub-rosa) blessing in doing so.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:41 AM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:12 PM 2/26/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:
>
><snip>
>>Joe:you are right about false Ohip cards,but I think the NDP talked about
>>photoID cards,but since then nothing happened.
>>It is a good idea,but according to Mike Harris,it cost too much.
>>Than he couldn't cut taxes,wich is why we will get less and less service in
>>Ontario.
>>Am I right?Andy.
>
>Yes, you're right, Andy.  I forgot that the Conservative government
>cancelled the photo-id programme.  And why?  Well, I believe that the
>Ontario government wants to ruin medicare.  They want to drive it into the
>ground.  Then they can tell us that it's too expensive and doesn't work.
>And after that, they can set up a system for the rich and another one for
>the rest of us.  In short, they want to Americanize medicare.  And they have
>the federal Liberal government's (sub-rosa) blessing in doing so.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>Joe: I hope you are wrong,about our gregarious conservative
governement,ruining medicare.If by any chance the LIbi's in Ottawa have this
blessing,they are definitly digging there own grave.
I just hope the Harris governement will do the same,with all the cut
backs,and downloading.
It amases me to hear that Ontarian'sstill support this hacker.I see Brian Mull
history again,when it took canadians 2 elections to realise what a crook he was
.
Well NDP was not good enough for the unions,now they crying fool.They
deserve it.
Andy.
+ - Testing (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Testing, testing, one, two, three...
Sorry, folks. I'm tryin' to get through for ages...
Perhaps this time...

Istvan L. Szabolcsy
+ - Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:09 PM 2/27/97 +1100, you wrote:
>Hello!
>I wonder whether I may be sensing a case of cold feet on the part of the
USA and may be Canada based on the realisation of the potential cost if this
exercise.
>While it was a case of promises those promises cost nothing or very little
to the USA but plenty to the countries wanting to join, such as Hungary, who
were told of the stringent conditions set by the IMF. Now that the
conditions are in the process of being met, suddenly there is a realisation
that there is a cost involved and perhaps such expansion, whether of NATO or
of the European Community, is not such a good idea after all.
>
>Regards
>Dénes 
>

My sense is that opposition to NATO expansion in the US comes mainly from
those who feel that such a move would anger Russia and rather than prevent,
would cause a potentially dangerous conflict.  The administration's point of
view, especially by the new SecState Madeline Allbright is that NATO would
(and to some degree has already brought) bring stability to the region,
which is as much in Russia's interest as ours.

Having established their basic political positions, both sides will expand
and try to justify their case by bringing in additional supporting
arguments.  Clearly, the anti-NATO expansion side will do their best to
frighten the taxpayers with the cost issue.  Pro-NATO arguments will argue
that the cost is acceptable and is far cheaper than a non-NATO solution to
European security.

Personally, I very much favor NATO expansion as a critical step toward
Hungary's European integration.  As I have stated many times before, Hungary
-- known to be saddled with difficult ethnic minority disputes with her
neighbors -- will not be admitted to the EU unless she carries a NATO
umbrella.  Without NATO and EU, Hungary would face a dim and tragic future.

From the US prospective, an unstable East Central Europe is a dangerous
place.  Ethnic conflagrations, such as in ex-Yugoslavia, end up as NATO
problems anyway and could end up attracting the Russian military as well,
who have nothing to do and nothing to loose and are sitting on top of a
large pile of arms.  NATO membership (and the prospect of EU membership)
influence these states to lower their belligerence toward each other.
Should a dispute break out anyway, both peaceful as well as military
intervention by NATO would be far easier if communications, roads, arms
specifications, etc. have been coordinated in advance.

The last 50 years have seen a historic breakthrough in conflict-torn Europe,
breaking a 1500 year (or more?) history of wars and mutual destruction.
Germany and France led the way to create for the first time since
Charlemagne ( or possible since the Romans) a peaceful, prosperous, somewhat
united Europe.  Now this movement is getting ready to further extend to the
East, to bring in the next set of warring, belligerent states into its tent.
Its a truly historic opportunity...  I hope that small minded, short sighted
politicians do not derail it.

regards,



Charlie Vamossy
+ - ICJ location (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-27 01:56:54 EST, you write:

<< Subj:        Re: Newsrelease to Environmentalists (o)
Date:   97-02-27 01:56:54 EST
From:   WVosseler
To:     Liptakbela

:-)
Good moprning dear Bela,
Thanks for the report.

My question: Is this presentation at the ICF in
The Haag a PUBLIC one?
When yes, in which location it will be?

I often asked waht I could do for the Danube
really; to write letters is one possibility.
Why? > NO newspaper, NO European TV channel
reportetd to this - Why?

With best personell greetings from Wolfgang

ps.: Things which are not in the Public by Tv and
Radio DO NOT exist in Europe. This is the same
abaout the problems of drinking water in Hungary.
In These days, the German President Mr. Roman Herzog
is in Hungary for 4 days, the first official  visite since 1986;
He also will visite the eastern part of HU around the theiss.


 >>

Dear Wolfgang,


The hearings are open to the public. There are 150 seats reserved.
The location is Carnegie Plein in The Hague, all taxi drivers know where that
is.
A silent protest against the destruction by the construction firm (NOT
AGAINST THE COURT!!) is being organized by the international environmental
NGOs in front of the court (particularly during the Slovak presentation
starting on March 24 and in Gyor, Hungary and in the the Szigetkoz on April
3).


Tanks for caring and expressig that care with deeds, not words.

Best regards: Bela Liptak
+ - Re: "Winemaking" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Feb 26 07:27:48 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #926:

>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.

Another sweeping statement from the pen of our Renaissance scholar!  How does
she know, you might ask.  Well...

>I know because around Pecs
>everybody has a vineyard and I visited quite a few where the owners don't
>even try to hide the fact that the wine is phoney. It tastes like it too.

Now, Eva is lucky she is not famous, or else she might have a dandy of a
lawsuit on her hands.  Because in effect she slanders all of the vintners in
Hungary.  But, fortunately for her, her opinions on wine don't carry much
weight anywhere.

Not that she is TOTALLY wrong.  In SOME (maybe several ;-)) cases farmers --
though not serious vintners -- do add sugar to their grapes to increase the
alcohol content of their wines.  This doctoring of the wine is frowned upon
by serious winemakers and is practiced mainly in areas not naturally suited
to the growing of high quality wine grapes.  The wines of such regions are of
pretty poor quality, with or without enhancement.

Her story of the doctoring of wines in the Pecs region is less credible,
given the natural good quality of that area's wine grapes.  Of course, it is
possible that in a given year, after a cool summer, sugaring of the grapes
was done.  But I doubt very much that the producers would openly admit such
falsifying of the wine, which, I might add, is also illegal.

Of course, adding sugar to the fermenting grapes is unethical.  But even
worse is what some Austrian farmers did a few years back: instead of sugar,
they added a much cheaper enhancer, glycol alcohol, commonly known as
antifreeze, the consumption of which can result in serious illness, blindness
and death.

Ferenc
+ - Re: Who reads what (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Feb 26 07:27:48 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #926:

>Ferenc Novak in connection with the road blockades of farmers:

                           <snip>

>        As for his other observations, starting with that 1 million forints
>is only 6,000 dollars, one doesn't really know what to say. Because it is
>the first 1 million forints after which the Hungarian farmers don't have to
>pay either taxes or social security at the time when the GDP/person in
>Hungary is less than 6,000 dollars!!

Eva, remember, you are talking about gross, not net income.  The farmers,
just like any other enterpreneurs, have expenses, which would have to be
subtracted from the gross income to arrive at their taxable earnings.  Wage
earners' tax bases are calculated differently.

Your assertion about the seeming discrepancy between farmers' gross income
and the GDP is puzzling.  The GDP/person is calculated, as the name implies,
by dividing the GDP by the number of persons in the given country, NOT by the
number of farmers!  A significant difference, indeed.

Another problem, as I understand, was that the government wanted farmers' tax
payments to be submitted on a time schedule inconsistent with the crop
cycles, that is, before the quantity, quality and price of the crops could be
known.  The compromise, reached after the blockades, provides for a schedule
consistent with the farming season (not unlike in the US, where "farmers and
fishermen" may pay their taxes on a tax year other than the calendar year).

> When salaried workers pay 60 some percent of their
>income in taxes and social security I don't think it is too much to ask to
>pay taxes on their first 1 million forints.
>
>        Eva Balogh

See above.

Ferenc

P.S.  Later this spring I will be traveling to Hungary and hope to get a
first-hand picture of the situation.  I will share my findings with the
reders of FORUM.
+ - Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:

>NATO is a dinosaur.  I'm one of those weird people that thinks that if
>the U.S. had brought everyone home from Europe in 1960, the cold war would
>have been over thirty years ago.

No, I don't think it's weird to think the cold war would have been over.
The outcome might have been slightly different though, at least in Europe.
(:-))

J.Zs
+ - HL-Action: Support students attending lawsuit (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  urgent

Background
   The lawsuit at the at the International Court of Justice, which
will adjudicate on the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia concerning
the rerouting of the Danube onto Slovak territory, will open in March.
   Thirty Hungarian lawschool students will observe the Danube 
lawsuit in the Hague until the sentence is passed. It is important
that a large number of people who are supporting our matter attend the
lawsuit. These students are paying the journey to The Hague and their
housing in the Netherlands themselves. Unfortunately not all of them
has enough money for the food, which is not cheap there.

What to do: 
  Please contribute to the livings of the thirty Hungarian lawschool
students. EVERY DOLLAR COUNTS!!! THESE STUDENTS ARE IN THE HAGUE TO
DEFEND OUR DANUBE, OUR COUNTRY. THEY ARE THERE FOR US!!
  If you want to contribute, please send an e-mail with your name,
address and the amount you want to donor to:
  

You will get information where and how to send the money as soon as
possible. Every donor will receive a detailed counting about the
money.

**********************************************************************
+ - The ways of Ferenc - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>
> P.S.  Later this spring I will be traveling to Hungary and hope to get a
> first-hand picture of the situation.  I will share my findings with the
> reders of FORUM.
>
Ferenc,

   You are attacking Eva now with the facts you will gather later
this spring - this is just great.
   And then you will report your findings to the FORUM - not this
List - this is even better.
   Good going, Ferenc. (Silence is golden?),
                                                Amos
+ - Re: Who reads what (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:27 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote, talking to me:

>Your assertion about the seeming discrepancy between farmers' gross income
>and the GDP is puzzling.  The GDP/person is calculated, as the name implies,
>by dividing the GDP by the number of persons in the given country, NOT by the
>number of farmers!  A significant difference, indeed.

        There is nothing puzzling about it. I simply wanted to give the
readers an idea about the relative wealth and therefore income levels of the
country's inhabitants.
>
>Another problem, as I understand, was that the government wanted farmers' tax
>payments to be submitted on a time schedule inconsistent with the crop
>cycles, that is, before the quantity, quality and price of the crops could be
>known.  The compromise, reached after the blockades, provides for a schedule
>consistent with the farming season (not unlike in the US, where "farmers and
>fishermen" may pay their taxes on a tax year other than the calendar year).

        Your have a very selective understanding of issues. You always hear
only what you want to hear. Yes, this was one of the demands which was
actually reasonable. Most of the others were not.

>P.S.  Later this spring I will be traveling to Hungary and hope to get a
>first-hand picture of the situation.  I will share my findings with the
>reders of FORUM.

        I am sure that your observations of the actual situation will be
just as even-handed as your reading of news from BLA.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gyorgy Kadar's long description of the plight of the poor wine
growers doesn't move me, I am afraid. I see no reason why the incomes of
wine makers (for many of whom the cultivation of their vineyards are not
their main source of income in the first place) should be treated
differently from everybody else. They don't have to keep books; they even
refuse to keep a list of their incomes and expenditures; their tax exemption
is not really 1 million fts gross but often four times as much because the
exemption is by family members (so in a case of a family of four it was four
million and now it is six million, and you can add to this number grandma
and grandpa, another three millions nowadays). At the same time cooperatives
have no tax brakes whatsoever. Terribly sorry but I can't see it.

        The problem is that since the opposition took up their case,
everybody who doesn't like the current government feels that they must
defend these wine growers, regardless. But they, just like the railroad
engineers a few years ago, or the employees of the nuclear power plant at
Paks, or the crooked taxi drivers of Budapest are actually making three-four
times more money than other people, yet they are the first to use force if
their demands are not met. The poor pensioners cannot get their tractors out
on the road and block the traffic--thus, they don't get such brakes as the
wine growers of Kiskoros. Who most likely don't need it at all.

        I said what I had to say on this topic. My heart is not the wine
growers of Kiskoros--doesn't matter how handy their movement came to Mr.
Torgyan and Mr. Csurka.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: "Winemaking" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:27 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote, quoting me:

 on Feb 26 07:27:48 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #926:
>
>>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.
>>I know because around Pecs
>>everybody has a vineyard and I visited quite a few where the owners don't
>>even try to hide the fact that the wine is phoney. It tastes like it too.
>
>Now, Eva is lucky she is not famous, or else she might have a dandy of a
>lawsuit on her hands.  Because in effect she slanders all of the vintners in
>Hungary.  But, fortunately for her, her opinions on wine don't carry much
>weight anywhere.

        We are getting ugly, aren't we, Mr. Novak. Plus Mr. Novak is not
very careful when it comes to reading other people's text. (1) I didn't say
that all wine-makers make phoney wine but the ones I talked to; (2) slander
means (I) the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame
and damage another's reputation; (II) a false and defamatory oral statement
about a person. And here is where we have a little trouble with Mr. Novak's
lines. First, slander is only "false charges," not charges which are true
and to which I can testify. Second, I didn't name names. And third, I didn't
talk about all wine makers of Hungary. Just some.

>Not that she is TOTALLY wrong.  In SOME (maybe several ;-)) cases farmers --
>though not serious vintners -- do add sugar to their grapes to increase the
>alcohol content of their wines.  This doctoring of the wine is frowned upon
>by serious winemakers and is practiced mainly in areas not naturally suited
>to the growing of high quality wine grapes.  The wines of such regions are of
>pretty poor quality, with or without enhancement.

        But these guys who were blockading roads are not "serious vintners"
as Mr. Novak would like to call them. They are just fellows who have a bit
of a vineyard. For example, the leader of the movement is actually an auto
mechanic who has three hectars (fairly large by Hungarian standards) of grapes.

>Her story of the doctoring of wines in the Pecs region is less credible,
>given the natural good quality of that area's wine grapes.  Of course, it is
>possible that in a given year, after a cool summer, sugaring of the grapes
>was done.  But I doubt very much that the producers would openly admit such
>falsifying of the wine, which, I might add, is also illegal.

        Are you saying that I am lying? I am not the lying sort. And, yes,
they doctor their wines quite openly. One hobby wine grower made me taste
this barrel and that barrel. What do I think of this; what do I think of
that. And then he got to the last barrel on the right hand side of the
cellar and said: "And this is the artificial wine (mu"bor)," what do you
think?" He seemed genuinely hurt when I said that it wasn't as good as the
others. And by the way, this man is a deeply religious fellow of serious
convictions. Even during the Rakosi-regime he was a regular churchgoer. And
he votes for the Christian Democrats. So, you would like him. I was
astonished myself because our family always had a vineyard and I knew what
it meant to be "fooling around" with wine. People used to be very secretive
about it. (And by the way even in the 1950s adding sugar and yeast to the
wine was already a widespread practice! And yes, around Pecs). But he told
me all that with such naturalness that I was truly astonished.

        As for the vineyards around Pecs. Sure, ideally the place could
produce good wine but the trouble is that most of the wine is too old and
replanting is extremely expensive. So the yields are low and public morals
are also low.

        Eva Balogh
+ - HL-Action: Support students attending lawsuit (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  urgent

Background
   The lawsuit at the at the International Court of Justice, which
will adjudicate on the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia concerning
the rerouting of the Danube onto Slovak territory, will open in March.
   Thirty Hungarian lawschool students will observe the Danube
lawsuit in the Hague until the sentence is passed. It is important
that a large number of people who are supporting our matter attend the
lawsuit. These students are paying the journey to The Hague and their
housing in the Netherlands themselves. Unfortunately not all of them
has enough money for the food, which is not cheap there.

What to do:
  Please contribute to the livings of the thirty Hungarian lawschool
students. EVERY DOLLAR COUNTS!!! THESE STUDENTS ARE IN THE HAGUE TO
DEFEND OUR DANUBE, OUR COUNTRY. THEY ARE THERE FOR US!!
  If you want to contribute, please send an e-mail with your name,
address and the amount you want to donor to:
  

You will get information where and how to send the money as soon as
possible. Every donor will receive a detailed counting about the
money.

**********************************************************************
+ - the Pecs - wine debate (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Not that Eva Balogh needs my defense, but I am siding with her on this
one. My old landlord apparently did the same thing for his homebrew, whihc
he so graciously left me a liter bottle every two-three weeks. since I
lived in Pecs, I had herad of this practice before. This was 1995, and my
ignorance of what it took to make those delicious wines started me asking
the questions. My landlord did say he used sugar in the process.

Now he was definitely no winemaker from Villany, but all the same, usually
he had some pretty good stuff.

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kristof:  At 01:42 AM 27/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, that was bound to happen.  Frankly, I am impressed by the restraint
>everyone showed, and the effort made by Agnes to illustrate her point with a
>concrete example.  She strikes me as an eminently reasonable person and
>someone I am going to enjoy getting to know.  Agnes, I hope the reverse is
>true.
This is very nice to see; something we ought to make more of a habit of.  I
have to tell you, that having read it early this morning has set my mood
very nicely for the day.

<snip>
>Incidentally, my insurance
>in America is catastrophic, so I pay for everything up to $7500 myself.
[...]
Over the years, we have been blessed with a significant volume of visitors
from the US, and have on numerous occasion found ourselves involved in
extensive conversations regarding the pros and cons of health insurance
along with the taxation structure at large between the two countries. Keep
in mind that I am using the Nova Scotia system for a base; rather than that
of Ontario.

Here, in NS, we have a sales tax, called NS. Health tax.  Primarily, on
everything we purchase, that is not considered a staple, GST is added on at
7%.  On this combined total, comes an 11% NS Health tax - (which ends up
closer to 12% than 11%, since tax on tax is charged).  If one were to take
an account on an annual basis of the tax they have paid towards Health
care, one would be astounded.  (Consider furniture acquisition; vehicle(s -
used, new); home acquisitions, building materials; travel; services of any
type; as likely being the higher ticket items, vs toothbrushes,  and
cleaning supplies being on the lower scale, and include everything in
between, save food.)  The health care covered by this tax is such, that one
is forced to involve themselves with an additional, privately acquired one.
 Extended health care cost (as we refer to it here) for a family of four on
an average can run about 1500.00Can$/year (provided that is, that you are
one of those employees, whose company offers to co-share the cost.)
Otherwise, you pay the whole shot yourself, being $3000.00.)  Add this
amount to the tax you've already dished out for NS Health tax throughout
the year.  See how close it comes to an equivalent annual policy in the US.
 Now, grant it; this figure allows you private room privileges, drug cost
reimbursement 80-90%, some but limited dental care, $70.00-90.00 bi
annually towards glasses (one average cost is 200-300$,) and likely some
travel insurance.  In many cases provides life insurance to the policy
holder to the tune of their annual salary - but not always.  You can
purchase a more extensive extended health package, which would include 2X
your annual salary/annum as a life insurance; a totally comprehensive
dental package which would include the cost of braces and caps for example,
for about $7000.00+/year.  But you cannot stop yet.

Add to this, the differences between the two countries' income tax
structure, property, school, occupancy taxes, cost of living, and taxable
exemptions.  When all the different dis/advantages between the US and
Canadian tax/health structure at large, are closely scrutinized, I would be
very surprised if you all would not come to the same conclusion we have, on
several occasions.  And, those Canadians who have opted to migrate south
have come to;  that  being, that a person say earning $40,000.00/year in
Canada, can and will have a better lifestyle in the US; while be able to
afford to acquire a fairly comprehensive Health Insurance coverage at the
same time. The consensus has always been, that regardless of Health care;
people south of us have, and continue to have it better.  It is my humble
opinion that everything is always relative.  And, before one can deem one
system to be better over another, all related affects need to be considered
very closely.

I don't believe, that in this discussion I have seen evidence of such;
which is the reason for the post. For what it's worth, my two fillers' worth.

Best to all, Aniko
+ - Re: welfare state and farmers' blockade Re: HUNGARY.092 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

D=E9nes=20 Bogcsanyi wrote:
> I saw you [Eva Balogh] making the comment that "But I can't
> imagine any country where after your first 6,000 dollars you don't pay =
> anything."  In Australia the income tax thrashhold is $5000 of taxable =
> income

Being AUD, this is USD4600 at the current exchange rate.  For amounts over
that income tax applies at rates starting with around 20%.

>and if your income is consistently below that you do not even =
> lodge a tax return.

I am not so sure about that, but then you may be better informed on Aussie
tax regulations than me.

George Antony
+ - Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>defend these wine growers, regardless. But they, just like the railroad
>engineers a few years ago, or the employees of the nuclear power plant at
>Paks, or the crooked taxi drivers of Budapest are actually making three-four
>times more money than other people, yet they are the first to use force if
>their demands are not met. The poor pensioners cannot get their tractors out
>on the road and block the traffic--thus, they don't get such brakes as the
>wine growers of Kiskoros. Who most likely don't need it at all.

Eva, there is not a single segment of the Hungarian society whose strike
or demands you would sympathise. Don't use that mysterious 'other people'.
Especially don't cover yourself with those poor pensioners, I still
remember that either here or on the forum there was a debate about
the 'nyugdijkorhatar' and you was complaining about how low it is and
how many people just use the pensioner status to get money without work.
(If I remember incorrectly I am sorry to accuse you).
I have the feeling that you consider the whole hungarian society as
'ingyenelo lehuto'.
You know it is amasing, first hear about how the high taxes and fees
in Europe and especially in East-Europe kill the privat enterprises and
then all of the sudden to learn how those farmers are well off in
Hungary.

J.Zs
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is just a very short note on what Aniko had to say about Canada
versus the United States. I must say that Canada has changed a heck of a lot
since I left the land in the north. Then, in 1965, it wasn't very different
from the United States except a little poorer. That is, everything cost a
little more and people made less than in the United States. And people along
the border (which is where practically everybody lives in Canada) flocked to
the United States to do shopping. The limit in those days was $100.00. If a
vinyl record in those days cost $4.00 in the United States it cost $7.00 in
Canada because of import duties. Import duties? What for? Canada had no
record industry. Or, if a Yamaha upright piano cost $1,200 in the United
States, in Canada is cost $2,200. Why. Import duties. Why? Canada was not
making pianos. The same was true about practically everything, including and
especially, major appliances. A tv set in the United States in those days
cost about $400.00 in Canada $600.00. Canada was defending its industry and
never mind that they were not making pianos or classical records.

        But since then something else happened which Canada didn't have in
those days. With the exception of ordinary income tax and sales tax one
didn't pay all those things Aniko is talking about. I guess I left at the
right time. Yes, I do pay for my own health insurance but I am very happy
with the service I am getting through a health plan which does its business
through Yale-New Haven Hospital. I don't think I can ask for much better
anywhere in the world. And yes, I pay for it but I do get very good service.
Very good service!!

        Best wishes you to all, Eva
+ - Re: the Pecs - wine debate (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi Darren,

        I almost forgot that you were an inhabitant of my birth place for
over a year! So, your landlord also. I have that nagging feeling that an
awful lot of vineyard owners are like your landlord or my relative in
Hungary. I have no idea what else you need beside sugar to make wine--I have
never been in the business of making "mu"bor."  However, I know that sugar
is an important ingredient.

        The fact is that the opposition this time picked a very bad cause.
Mind you the so-called vintners won. The rest of the population can say:
"You see, the no-goods who yell and scream get their way all the time.

        Best, Eva (B)
+ - Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:38 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Eva, there is not a single segment of the Hungarian society whose strike
>or demands you would sympathise. Don't use that mysterious 'other people'.
>Especially don't cover yourself with those poor pensioners,

        I would certainly prefer the strike by pensioners--I would
understand it somewhat better than a road blockade by the wine growers of
Kiskoros.

>I still
>remember that either here or on the forum there was a debate about
>the 'nyugdijkorhatar' and you was complaining about how low it is and
>how many people just use the pensioner status to get money without work.

        Yes, and I still maintain that getting on the pension roles when you
are 55 years old if you are a woman and 58 or whatever when you are a man is
still low. Low by any standards. Nobody, not even the richest nation on
earth can afford this. And yes, I did say that 3 million "beggars" as the
right likes to call them is hogwosh. Most people are dying to get out of
work and getting a modest pension and then doing whatever they can do to
make money on their own. My own father took the very first opportunity to be
a pensioner because he knew that with his other "businesses" he could make
much more money. And he did. Or there is a relative of mine by marriage. He
has a fairly decent pension and at the same time I think it is only pocket
money for him. But of course, there are people who are really poor but not 3
million of them. I met only one really poor person in Hungary: my former
homeroom teacher. She really is poor because the only thing she has is her
pension. But most people don't. Also, there are 500,000 people who are
disabled. Do you really believe that in the country of 10 million 500,000
are truly and honestly disabled? The hell they are. Guidelines for disabled
status are lax in addition to all the crooked doctors who can be paid off.
They get their diability payment and they work in the grey or the black
economy. That's life, Janos!

>(If I remember incorrectly I am sorry to accuse you).
>I have the feeling that you consider the whole hungarian society as
>'ingyenelo lehuto'.

        It may not be the whole society but most people try to get as much
out of the system as possible. And the system is such that a lot can be
milked out of it.

>You know it is amasing, first hear about how the high taxes and fees
>in Europe and especially in East-Europe kill the privat enterprises and
>then all of the sudden to learn how those farmers are well off in
>Hungary.

        I am not saying that they are well off by some absolute standards,
or as well off as a well paid business executive. But they are not treated
the same way as the rest of the entrepreneurs are treated. They have special
privileges and they will continue to have special privileges while the rest
of the society is paying more because of them. Can you understand that? Or
is it beyond you in your ideological blindness?

        Eva Balogh
+ - About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lectoris Salutem!
        In the order of appearence I have some comments on yesterday's
dispute about the subject.
        Eva Balogh wrote replying to Ferenc Novak:
        "As for the observations, starting with that 1 million forints
is only 6,000 dollars, one doesn't really know what to say. Because it is
the first 1 million forints after which the Hungarian farmers don't have to
pay either taxes or social security at the time when the GDP/person in
Hungary is less than 6,000 dollars!! The {!!!}average salary{!!!} is 540
thousand forints per year and these people pay taxes and social security
on every penny of this amount... <snip> ...the fact is that 6,000 dollars
is a lot of money in Hungary..."
         And later, with somewhat more prudence:
"The government caved. Now 1.5 million forints {!!!}gross income{!!!} is
the threshold under which one doesn't pay taxes and social security."
        Emphases: {!!!} added by me, KGy.

        Magda Zimanyi rightly pointed out this difference between gross
and net incomes:
"As far as I know the 1 million income mentioned in the papers was
gross income and not net income. According to a spokesperson of the
farmers the farmers state that they need to produce at about 1.6
million HUF gross income/year in order to reach the minimum
subsistence level (considering taxation, social security and
expenditures). Of course I am in no position to confirm their
calculations."
        Then Eva Balogh answers:
        "I think I mentioned the fact that it was gross income. But I
can't imagine any country where after your first 6,000 dollars you don't
pay anything."


        From all this I conclude, that I have to draw the attention to the
real actual difference between the gross and net incomes in agriculture.
With this I do not want to say anything new, because the main point was
cited by Eva Balogh herself from the BLA news-survey source:
        ">A kormany elfogadta, hogy a
>termelok evi brutto 1,5 millio forint arbevetelig adobevallas
>helyett nyilatkozatot tegyenek. Akik teteles koltsegelszamolassal
>dolgoznak, azoknak beveteleik minimum 20 szazalekaig kell szamlaval is
>rendelkezniuk.
        {!!!}Vita volt a jovedelemhanyadrol: a kormany
>allattenyesztesnel 6, novenytermesztesnel 15 szazalekot, a
>termelok 5, illetve 10 szazalekot javasoltak.{!!!}
>Az ostermeloi korbe soroltak a savanyusagot, a hordos szolobort."

        Do you see? In a dispute the government proposed, that the net
income to gross income ratio should be 6% in the livestock-breeding
sector and 15% in the plant-cultivation sector while the farmers proposed
5% and 10% respectively. This means, that even the government recognized
that even for the (honest!) wintners the 1.5 million HUF will be not more
than 225 thousand HUF (compare to minimum wage figures), much less for a
cattle-breeder (if this word exists?) and much less according to the
farmers themselves. And I can add to this my personal experiences. The
cultivation of 1 hectar of vineyard last year costed for me about 150
thousand HUF cash paid from my salary for the  work of ploughing,
spraying, transportation, etc, undertaken by the local cooperative. We had
great times with my four member family in the weekends when we were
dressing (cutting) the wine-stock in the spring, hacking three times
during the summer, dressing the green wine-stock, and finally harvesting.
This was all above the paid work. I can certainly add another 50 thousand
HUF for my gasoline and our work. The amount we harvested was 7 tonnes of
grape, 34 thousand HUF/tonne. I can say, the ratio for us was a little bit
more than 15% (can you see, how more?). But it was wineyard, whose
profitability is always better than that of other plants. And for those
living in the countryside it is very rare to have at least 6-8 hectares of
vineyard (or equivalent area of land) to be able to live on it with a
family (1.5 - 2 million HUF gross, that is 3-400 thousand HUF net income).
That much about the net value of 1.5 million HUF gross income.

        Something else, again in response to Eva Balogh, who wrote:
        "Oh, and one more thing. As one Hungarian interneter rightly
pointed out the vintners of Hungary manage to "make" so much wine that if
they remade them to grapes the whole country would be covered with
vineyards including downtown Budapest!!! Of course, this may be a slight
exaggeration for effect but the fact is that in Hungary the "making of
wine" by adding sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace. I know
because around Pecs everybody has a vineyard and I visited quite a few
where the owners don't even try to hide the fact that the wine is phoney.
It tastes like it too."

        I agree completely. What is more the road-blockading farmers seem
to agree too. Last year there was an almost unnoticed news in a newspaper:
somewhere in one of the Alfold wine-producing regions a man was killed by
the sugar-alcohol fermentation carbon dioxide gas
{!!!}in a wine-cellar{!!!} and in {!!!}June{!!!}.
Can anybody imagine what kind of Hungarian grape could be fermented in
June? Its main ingredient must have been certainly originated from
sugar-bean. True wine-producers are quite upset of such news.
        Two demands of the road-blockading farmers were quite hidden in
the Hungarian press but well perceivable for those living in Hungary:
        1) The government instead of or together with taxing the
grass-root farmers (ostermeloket) should take measures against the black
and grey "enterpreneurship", that is those who make and sell falsified
products, like sugar-bean originated wine pretending to produce those in
their negligible area of land.
        2) The state subsidies should be much better channelled to the
real and verified producers, live-stock breeders and plant cultivators,
irrespective of their collective or private status. So far and lately to
an increasing extent the state subsidies were stopped at the level of
commerchants, exporters, those, who usually haven't even seen or had any
contact with the producer or the product.

        Istenvelunk...                  Kadargyorgy

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