Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 750
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-08-06
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Letter to King Bela IV, Boba, Anonymus (mind)  83 sor     (cikkei)
2 Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
3 NPA office pool (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
4 Sophistry (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
5 Sophistry (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
6 Sophistry (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: A letter of King Bela IV (mind)  293 sor     (cikkei)
8 Sophistry (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
9 American Imperialism (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: American Imperialism (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Sophistry (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
12 S: good shoemaker in Budapest (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
13 S: cheap lodging in Budapest (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Sophistry (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: S: cheap lodging in Budapest (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
16 NYM (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Sophistry (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Anonymus (mind)  109 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: American Imperialism (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Sophistry (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: NPA office pool (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Letter to King Bela IV, Boba, Anonymus (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: The nym issue (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: American Imperialism (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: American Imperialism (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: and about Hunyad / (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: The Nemenyi files (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Sophistry (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: NPA office pool (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
30 Sophistry (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
31 NPA office pool (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
32 The Nemenyi files (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
33 Sophistry (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: American Imperialism (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Sophistry (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: On early East-European history (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: The nym issue (mind)  83 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: American Imperialism (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Sophistry (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: On early East-European history (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
41 Historical conference on the millecentennial celebratio (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Sophistry (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Letter to King Bela IV, Boba, Anonymus (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,
        Thanks to Mr. Iordache's posting on the Bela IV letter, I have come to 
r
 ealize
 that I have stupidly missed out on some interesting discussion, as the subject
 line of certain postings looked ominously coinciding with unnecessary flames t
o
 be found on othe
lists I subscribe.
        I will try to answer rather hastily, but with the impressions of a supp
o
 sedly,
 experienced historian.
I have to know more on manuscript tradition, Latin wording, and look up at
 circumstances, but unless mistaken, the letter looks to me very much a forgery
.
I base this assumption on the following points:
1)  If we are to trust our most reliable accounts on the Mongol invasion, such
 as Rogerii Carmen Miserabile, although the approach of the Tartars was both
 known and feared, it looks as though its result was the internal discord
 between king Bela and the
Cumanians who had settled within the borders of Hungary.
The overall tone of the letter seems to anticipate what actually followed and
 not what someone might expect to follow.
2)  Just a few years before the catastrophe, a treatise was published which is
 known as the Relatio of Friar Richard, whose content deals with a mission of
 eventually, two Benedictine friars to the east, to what was known as Magna
 Hungaria.
What matters for the purpose of this message is that the chief hero, Friar
 Julian, on his return from the East, supposedly reported the Mongol approach
 and imminent invasion of Hungary.
When I looked at the text, whose originality has been challenged, I noticed tha
t
 two passages in it look pretty similar with related passages in the longer lif
e
 of St. Gerard, which almost certainly come from an earlier period.
I was therefore compelled to conclude that the whole document should be a
 forgery, and I wrote an article about this subject in Greek, with an English
 summary, which was published in Dodone 22.
It looks to me that the same pattern of knowledge of later facts is made an
 anachronism in this letter.
3)  King Bela supposedly promises to bring to Christianity the area of the sea
 of Constantinople.
What the author presumably means in Roman Catholicism.
But King Bela's wife was a Laskarid, daughter of the (Greek and Orthodox)
 Emperof of Nicaea Theodoros I Laskaris, and despite his missionary zeal, King
 Bela always kept in good terms with the Empire of nicaea, as well as with his
 wife, it appears.
As for Constantinople itself, it was in Latin hands at the time, and so there i
s
 no question that the reference is misleading.
There are other points someone might find suspicious, but these are my principa
l
 objections.
        Turning now to Mrs. Balogh's question.
Prof. Boba's views, unlike by American scholars, are generally not much
 supported in European circles.
To be honest, I have been unable to look at the evidence he has for the support
 of his view of a southern Moravia, but the evidence looks to me overwhelmingly
 against such a hypothesis.
This subject has very much become a combat of two schools and for the sake of
 fairness, I have to say that although I would almost certainly put my vote for
 the view of a northern Moravia, I have not seen Prof. Boba's arguments in the
 original, but I thin
that the evidence supplied by Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetus, speaks
 overwhelmingly against it.
        Now to the anonymus.
It is true that many Hungarian scholars have tried to discredit his evidence,
 largely thanks to his bizare style, content and comments.
But you really have to look more seriously to the fact that he is largely using
 "garrulous songs", i.e epic oral tradition, to which he refers with scorn, but
 he actually seems to be using it.
If this has come in previous postings, please accept my apologies.
Anonymus has to be studied twofold, i.e both with respect to each episode, when
 such testimony as it can be found is used in favour, or against him, and in a
 more general framework, where questions regarding his aims and scope of oral o
r
 written knowledge
could be placed.
But on the whole, he remains one of the most intriguing figures of mediaeval
 historiography.
                                Regards to all,
                                Dr. Panagiotis Antonopoulos
+ - Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear addressee, Could you tell me why my rain.org account is not
authorized to send material to HUNGARY and what can be done about it?
		Thanks in advance,		Robert Hetzron

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 07:59:09 -0400
From: "L-Soft list server at GWUVM (1.8b)" >
To: 
Subject: Rejected posting to 

You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY  list  from  your
 account.  You might  be authorized  to send  to the  list from
another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail  program which
generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way  to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you have
any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please contact the list
owners: .

------------------------ Rejected message (30 lines) --------------------------
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 04:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Hetzron >
To: HIX HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Patai Rafael
In-Reply-To: >
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Patai Rafaelnek nemreg jelent meg a Jews in Hungary cimu muve, eppen
olvasom. Nagy veszteseg ennek a tudosnak az elhunyta!		R
+ - NPA office pool (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 While we are on the topic of online crankeries and perception versus
reality, it is interesting to note that just the other day someone (from a
site in Germany) forged email messages in the name of a couple of HIX
subscribers - Nemenyi among them - to take them off the list. The question
now is: how long before the myth that it must have been a computer
break-in to the victims' machines will take hold in the lore? I'd say,
given the slowness of the summer days, that it may take up till this
Wednesday for 5 independent Forum poster to show up and state this for a
fact... Any other bets?

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Version: 2.6.2

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+ - Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai asked:

>What's your game, Mr. Nemenyi?

There is no game Mr. Szalai. Just the need for knowledge.
But you seem to be a little paranoid. Relax and take care
of your bowel movement.

NPA.
+ - Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh wrote:


>I still don't understand. We were talking about the fact that Sandor
>Petrovics Magyarized his name to Peto"fi, but we normally don't put his
>original name into parentheses as Nemenyi does with people of Jewish origin.

No, we are talking about something else. Originally there was a remark,
stating that nobody ever writes Petofi's name Petrovics.
That proved to be false.
And about Eva giving me the credit of mentioning the full names of some
people, I must remind her again,....when I quote from a source, and the
name is shown like that,...I don't use self censorship, because usually
I don't alter the the content of the given source. Eva once stated that
We Hungarians don't do it. So I mentioned one book printed by the "Akademia
Kiado in 1992" Titled "A Forradalmak kora", written by Gusztav Gratz.

But I can quote bunch of other English language sources as well. So I am
a little puzzled, why Eva tries to prove, that no one but me, the source
of such instances, when the full name is mentioned? I know why though.
That is another ticket to fight with, for her. A poor one!

>Petofi was on the radical left of the political spectrum in 1848, and when
>he tried to run for parliament he lost very badly. Surely, the Hungarian
>people were not ready to follow a fireband poet and his political ideas.

I wonder what the radical-political left meant that time. I also wonder
if the ever had any contact with the ideas of Marx and Engels? Anyone
has any knowledge of this kind of possibilities?

>Well, the Hungarians didn't kill their king, but I don't think that
>they were inherently incapable of doing so.

May be that's why. :-)

NPA.
+ - Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony wrote:

>But I think Hugh explained this much better in the start of this thread.

>>So he did. One explanation is just as good as many.

>Or so you say and might even believe it.
>If you wish to see whom the readers of this list believe, a poll can
>probably be organized.

You had some valid points. But, because the subject is artificially made
so sensitive, I doubt that on the average , people with no special interest
would not shy away.

Because the antisemite label was made into a powerful weapon, people
usually trying to avoid it. So your poll would be predictable. Sorry
Hugh, that is what happen when a scare tactic goes too far.

NPA.
+ - Re: A letter of King Bela IV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Liviu Iordache writes:
> The following text was recently published on scr. Can someone confirm its
> autenticity ?

Liviu, this does not read right. It would be helpful to have the text in
the original also. Normally, royal letters, etc. of the time also had the
name of the transcriber. There appear to be time span mix-ups also. It also
appears that the geopolitics of the Balkans is incorrect. Both Bela III and
Bela IV were closely tied to the Greek/Byzantine houses. In one of my boxes
packed away, I have a collection of royal letters, and documents from
those days, when I dig it out, I will post one for style. My vote is that
it is a forgery of later date.

Regards, Jeliko

PS I am heading out to Disneyland on the Potomac today, so answer to other
postings will have to wait.



> <(The original of the below letter, written on a parchment scroll,
>  was found some twenty-odd years ago in the secret archives of the
>  Vatican )

>                                                                    =20
> THE
>  "MONGOL LETTER"
>                                                      =20
> ADDRESSED BY B=C9LA
>  IV, KING OF HUNGARY,
>                                                                    =20
>  TO
>  POPE INNOCENT IV
>  ON=20
> 11 NOVEMBER 1252


> To our Holy Father in Christ, our Lord INNOCENT, by the Grace of God=20
> High Pontiff of our Holy Roman Catholic Church - B=E9la by the Grace
of=20
> God King of Hungary sends his dutiful and cordial respects.=20


> In the wake of the Mongol disaster the major part of Hungary has been=20
> turned into desert. Pagan tribes surround it, like hedges the sheep-fold.
>  Ruthenians and Wallachians in the East; heretic Bulgars and
> Bosniacs in the South, with whom we are still at war. In the North and
West
> there are=20
> the Germans of whom, owing to our common faith, we should expect help.=
>  However,
> instead of the fruit of aid all we get from them are the thorns of war.

>  For they keep raiding our country for plunder and=20
> rape. For reason of all these woes, but above all on account of the
Mongols
> who taught
>  us, like they did other people they
> have trampled underfoot, to fear the experience of war - and having taken
> counsel
>  with the  Barons and Prelates of our Realm - we address ourselves to the
> Vicar of Christ and His=20
> Brethren, last refuge of
> Christians in extreme peril, in order to prevent from happening to us,
and
> through
>  us to other Christian peoples, that which we fear.=20

> News is reaching us, day after day, about the Mongols. They are preparing
to
> attack not only us, whom=20
> they hate most for not having, despite the wounds inflicted on them,
bowed
> to their yoke, whilst all
>  the other peoples against whom they have brought force to bear performed
> acts of submission and
> became their tributaries - east of our frontier the Russian lands, as
well
> as that of the Coumanians,
>  Wallachians  and Bulgars, who had once been under our rule.
>  Those Mongols are henceforward organizing themselves not only against us
> but against the entire=20
> Christian world and, as borne out by very many trustworthy witnesses,
they
> will soon deploy their
>  immense cohorts against the whole of Europe.=20

> We are equally afraid lest should those people appear once more, our men,
> knowing the savage cruelty
>  of the Tartars, might hesitate or simply not dare to resist them any
more,
> fear bending them under
>  the yoke
> of the enemy, as it has the other neighbouring peoples, unless the Holy
> Apostolic See, guided by
>  wise foresight, effectively strengthen our country with its
reinforcement,
> thus instilling its=20
> inhabitants with new
> courage.=20

> We are writing this principally for two reasons - so as not to be accused
> afterwards of not having
>  explored all possibilities or of plain negligence.=20

> As regards negligence, we may affirm that we have done everything
possible
> in our position and based
>  on our experience when we had exposed ourselves and all our belongings
to
> the menace and violence of
> the Tartars, still largely unknown at that time. Nor can anyone accuse us
of
> sins of omission.=20


> The Tartars were still cutting throats in our country when al- ready we
> addressed ourselves to the three=20
> great powers of the Christian world:=20

>        - To the Holy See, master and teacher of all Christendom;=20


>        - To the Imperial Court to which we have even offered our=20

>        submission provided that it lent us timely and decisive aid=20

>        against the Mongol pest;=20



>        - And also to the Royal House of France, but from nowhere=20
>        did we get aid or comfort, only words.=20


> And yet we had left no stone unturned; for the sake of Christendom we
> humbled our=20
> Royal Majesty
>  by giving two of our daughters as wives to Ruthenian princes and one to
a
> Polish prince
>  to procure from
> them, and other friends living to the east of us, jealously guarded
secret
> information=20
> concerning the Tartars, so as to be able to resist the designs and
intrigues
> of the latter.=20

> We received in our country also the fugitive Coumanians, and it is sad to
> say that thus we
>  defend our country with the help of pagans; it is with them that we
combat
> the enemies of the
>  Church. Moreover, for the protection of the Christian faith we have
wedded
> our oldest=20
> son to a Coumanian bride,=20
> in order to avoid the worst, thus inducing the Coumanians to embrace
> Christianity,=20
> as we had one before with other
> populations.=20

> For these and other reasons we wish to furnish proof to his Holiness the
> Pope that amidst
>  all those misfortunes we have received no aid from any Sovereign, any
> European people
>  whatsoever, except from the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem who=20
> at our request not long ago, have taken up arms against
>  the pagans and schismatics for the defense of our country and true
> Christian faith.=20

> We have already stationed them at places of danger, on the
Bulgaro-Coumanian
> frontier and the
>  Lower Danube, for it had been there that the Tartars made irruption into
> our country.=20

> But on that territory we have other designs, too. We hope that if God
aids
> our work and that
>  done by our above-mentioned brethren, and if the Holy See should deign
to
> help us too,
>  we may spread the Christian
> faith with the assistance of the Knights all along the Danube as far as
the
> Sea of Constantinople,
>  thus providing adequate aid to the Roman Empire and also the Holy
Land.=20

> On the other hand, we have placed Knights to defend the fortresses we
built
>  along the Danube, which are as yet novel things to our people.=20

> For it is our oft-proven belief that if we reinforce the defense of the=
>  Danube
>  with fortresses it will be our salvation as well as that of the whole of
> Europe.=20

>        For the Danube is the river of resistance.=20

> Even though unprepared and having suffered a terrible defeat we were able
to
>  hold out against the Mongols for ten months, at a time when our country
had=
> =20
> almost no fortresses at all, nor strong defenders.=20

> If the Mongols should succeed in taking possession of the Danube and
then,
>  God forbid, occupy our country, the road would lie open to them towards
>  other Christian countries; for once because there is no sea
> to stand in their way, and on the other hand, because here they could
most=
> =20
> advantageously install their families with which they are abundantly=
>  provided.=20

> Let us recall Attila who came from the East to conquer the West and=
>  installed
>  his principal camp in the middle of Hungary or, on the other hand, the=
>  Roman=20
> Emperors who sallied forth fighting from the West to
> subdue the East and who again installed the majority of their troops
between
>  the frontiers of our country.=20

> May Your Holiness meditate all these things carefully so as to take=
>  appropriate
>  measures and bring remedy to the wound before it begins to fester.=20

> It is precisely for that reason that I beg your vigilant Papal Holiness
to
>  grant us its aid, take salutary measures and apply beneficial remedies
lest
> the wound
>  become envenomed.=20

> Many thinking men are astonished at seeing Your Holiness tolerate under
the
>  present conditions the indifference shown to Europe by the King of
France,
> that=20
> eminent member of the Church.=20

> They are also astonished at all the care heaped by Your Holiness on the=
>  Empire=20
> of Constantinople as well as other lands overseas. Yet if those were to
be
>  lost-which God forbid-less harm would be done to the
> inhabitants of Europe than if our country alone were occupied.=20

> We declare before God and all men that our need is so great and our cause
so
> grave=20
> that were it only for the perils of the road we would, instead of merely
> sending=20
> ambassadors as we do, prostrate ourselves
> personally at Your Holiness's feet, in order to make ourselves heard by
the
> entire
>  Church, to submit our apologies and obtain Your approval to coming to an
>  understanding with the Mongols, in case Your
> Holiness does not grant us the aid re- quested should danger befall
us.=20

> We implore the Holy Mother Church to take into consideration, if not our
>  own merits, those of our saintly royal predecessors who had, full of
>  devotion and respect, maintained themselves and their peoples in
> the faith of salvation, similarly to other princes of this world, in
> the purity of that faith and in obedience to the Church, wherefore the
>  Holy Apostolic See had offered them, while all went well for them, and
> promised, in the event of danger, even without submitting any special
>  request, all kinds of graces and favours.=20

> At the present time, however, a grave danger threatens.=20

> Let Your Holiness open His paternal heart and send us an armed force
>  signifying substantial aid for the protection of the Faith and for=20
> the good of the people at this time of great persecutions.=20

> For if Your Holiness should - an event we cannot believe - refuse our=20
> well-founded request which is of interest to all the faithful of=20
> the Church of Rome, we would be compelled, no longer as children=20
> but as
> outcasts from the fatherly flock, to beg protection elsewhere.=20

> Done at S=E1rospatak, this eleventh day of November, feast of the
> Bishop and Martyr Saint Martin.=20

>        B=C9LA IV=20
>        King of Hungary >
+ - Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Farkas states:

>We are saturated with quotes from The Protocols of The Elders of Zion and
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>other "scholarly" works. They have been laughed out already.  But they just
>won't stop.

By whom? May I ask, who is quoting passages from this work on our lists?

I wonder if this statement was on of Gabor's famous examples, which are
not to be found? :-)

NPA.
+ - American Imperialism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:14 AM 8/3/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, this time picking on Andy Kozma, wrote:

>Luckily for Canadians and those of us mean,
>imperialistic Americans who like Canada, Canadians and things Canadian in
>general, the CBC is able to rise above your level of petty hatred. We're
>still going to water down your beer and make you eat real bacon when we
>take over, Andy.

I didn't think the Americans were interested in taking over Canada.  I was
told that many Americans think of Canadians as whining, dependent
socialists.  Why would they want us?  Hell, Canadian companies still do
business in Cuba, as they should.  And besides, the Americans didn't do too
well in the War of 1812.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: American Imperialism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 11:14 AM 8/3/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, this time picking on Andy Kozma, wrote:
>
> >Luckily for Canadians and those of us mean,
> >imperialistic Americans who like Canada, Canadians and things Canadian in
> >general, the CBC is able to rise above your level of petty hatred. We're
> >still going to water down your beer and make you eat real bacon when we
> >take over, Andy.
>
> I didn't think the Americans were interested in taking over Canada.  I was
> told that many Americans think of Canadians as whining, dependent
> socialists.  Why would they want us?  Hell, Canadian companies still do
> business in Cuba, as they should.  And besides, the Americans didn't do too
> well in the War of 1812.
>
> Joe Szalai
>

Last time I checked, in the War of 1812, the American fought the British,
not the Canadians by themselves.

Actually, if the U.S. did take over Canada then English would become the
official language of Canada, too, like the Congress is doing right now.
Canadians would no longer need bilingual signs! :-) :-) :-)

Frank Aycock
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:34 PM 8/4/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>Eva may recall that every second grader in Hungary is taught that Petofi's
>father was of Serbian extraction and his mother was Slovak.  So no need for
>the Petofi (Petrovics) designation.

        And everybody knows that Rakosi and Farkas were Jewish.

>But nobody was ever taught the original
>name of Rakosi, Farkas (no relation, hopefully ;-) to our Gabor), and some of
>the others mentioned in this context.  So identifying their original names
>may provide additional information, not commonly available to the average
>layman.

        It would be interesting to conduct a survery among "the average
laymen," in order to ascertain how many people know Petofi's original name.
I bet not as many as you think.

>The fact that they happened to be Jewish names need not worry the Jews on
>this list.  I don't think anyone here is going to be blamed for the crimes of
>Rakosi and his ilk.

        But you are wrong. Some people make gross generalizations based on
Jewish participation in 1919 and after 1945.

>And these good people think that the
>best defense against such a thing happening is to silence, at whatever cost,
>those who would advance such ideas.  But this is dead wrong.

        No one suggests "silence." The question of Jewish participation in
1919, for example, is a legitimate one and historians have tried to answer
the question: why such preponderance of people of Jewish extraction. There
are several hypotheses concerning this question.

>>        What I object to is Nemenyi's half-baked, pseudo-scientific ideas on
>>history: world as well as Hungarian. He manages to influence a goodly number
>>of people on the Internet who take his ideas as gospel truths. This is what
>>I object to. This is the last thing the Hungarian public needs. What the
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Hungarian public needs is at last a balanced view of history: not the kind
>>the Kadar regime taught in the schools and not the kind of far-right is
>>propagating.
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>
>This view, mirroring that of the Kadar regime (i.e. "we" know what the people
>ought to know and therefore will not permit them access to any other point of
>view) runs counter to that of true liberal thinking.  And Eva Balogh thinks
>she is a liberal.

        First of all, don't compare my thinking to that of the Kadar regime.
I get somewhat irritated by it. Second, one of the worst curses in Eastern
Europe is the so-called histories each nation concocted for themselves. We
don't need more of this: we don't need nationalistic, antisemitic,
apologetic, pro-German interpretation of modern Hungarian history. But, at
the same time, we don't need such distortion of Hungarian history which
emphasizes the "working-class movement" of Hungary when the "working-class
movement" in no way was influential in twentieth-century Hungarian history.
We ought to teach our children a less nationalistic history and one which
emphasizes the values of democracy, as opposed to either communism or
national socialism, or pardon me, Hungarism.

        Eva Balogh
+ - S: good shoemaker in Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi,

Im searching for a good and payable shoemaker in Budapest.

Could you please mail me your answers:


+ - S: cheap lodging in Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi,

Im searching for a cheap lodging in Budapest for the last two weeks of august
for
four persons.

Please mail your answers to:


+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

ESB:
> the "working-class movement" in no way was influential in
> twentieth-century Hungarian history.

???                                               (Sz. Zoli)
+ - Re: S: cheap lodging in Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Aug 5,  8:12am, Tilman Roeder wrote:
> Subject: S: cheap lodging in Budapest
> Hi,
>
> Im searching for a cheap lodging in Budapest for the last two weeks of august
> for
> four persons.
>
> Please mail your answers to:
>
> 
>-- End of excerpt from Tilman Roeder

    I need more info. Are you talking about a family of four or four
    friends? How many rooms do you need?  Everything depends on such
    questions. E-mail me privately that we won't flood the list.

                                              Amos
                                              
+ - NYM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have read several messages, regarding folks being upset with the use of
the nym. So here is my input regarding Jeliko. I am a real person and while
I am also on nets where I use my full name, I find it more convenient for
the newsgroup format to use JELIKO. which is a consolidation of my
initials.
The reason for this is that I was involved in various international
activity, representing the USDOE at the OECD and scientific contract
activity in central European countries, where there are many folks who
cannot differentiate between official and private correspondance.
Considering that soem of these activites have taken place (and some still
do) in Yugoslavia, Checoslovakia and Romania the separation of individual
and official activity is not well understood. (As a matter of fact even
this group has difficulty with it at times.) Thus the Jeliko.
With some of you I have corresponded under my full name, and there is
nothing nefarious about my use of the nym.

At least I am sure that my historical interest also does not influence me
in my official capacity.

But for those who like to more about me, here are some tidbits.
I am a 56-er. I am a mixture of Croatian/Transylvanian Saxon (mother's
side) and  Kiskun on my father's side. History is strictly a hobby with me.
I am president of a corporation involved with US and international nuclear
and chemical industry and a consultant to the US govt. I am married, my
wife is a third generation Hungarian from Cleveland. Our children do not
speak Hungarian, they all had to learn another language, but it was their
choice not my dictation. I am a non-practicing Calvinist. I despise any
extremist philosophy, because in my opinion, that means a closed mind. I
travel too much and getting tired of it. My favorit pastime is reading and
I have not enough time for it. I do consider myself a non-hyphenated
American. I am 6 ft/ 200 lbs, graybeard, brown/grey hair male.
I hope that now even those are satisfied who think it is more important to
know who is writing rather than what is written.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:26 AM 8/5/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely > wrote:

>ESB:
>> the "working-class movement" in no way was influential in
>> twentieth-century Hungarian history.
>
>???                                               (Sz. Zoli)

You found that statement curious too, eh?  I suspect that for Eva Balogh,
denial, is just a river in Egypt.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Anonymus (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

JELIKO > wrote:
>I do not know wherefrom Macartney derived his conclusion. At least in the
>documentation I am aware of the Hungarians were fairly particular in
>distuinghising between the various, even if partly related tribes.

Sure, just that sometimes they used a similarly confusing ethnicon for both,
the German-speaking Franks and the Romanian-speaking Vlachs ;-). BTW, I
haven't forgotten about those Byzantine documents [using Vlachs for the
Franks] that you promised to reveal and failed to do it yet.

Anyhow, Macartney [1953, The Medieval Hungarian Historians] identifies as
one of Anonymus sources a very ancient list of donations (originally
composed in Magyar, probably also used in Chronicon Budense) made by Arpad
to the "Seven Captains" and the "Seven Cumans." In Macartney's own words:
"In its original vernacular form, the list certainly used the word >Cun<, a
generic Magyar term for many Turki races, which Anon. translated as >Cuman<
because the Cumans were the familiar Kuns of his own day."

>> The criticism directed against Anonymus credibility  is based
>> on the assumption that he did not know the basic facts  of
>> early medieval history, or that he wanted and was able to tell
>> his readers an "invented story."

> One problem could be also that probably only pat of it survived.

Disregarding that Anonymus wrote with a specific goal in mind (see below),
this might be an unsupported assumption. As I said, Anonymous

>> could not have hoped to deceive the reader of his
>> Gesta in Western Europe, for whom he dedicated his work, a "literatus"
>> well versed in medieval historiography:

His work covers mostly events that took place in the Hungarian regions
situated E of the Danube. Isn't a more reasonably assumption that Anonymous'
friend, a "literatus" well versed in medieval historiography, was not to be
bothered with events he was already familiar with?

>> The Gesta, written for a friend in the West, was unknown in
>> Hungary. A copy of it was found in Austria only late in the 18th
>> century, and until 1928 Anonymus' Gesta was kept in Vienna.

>It is also presumptious to assume that all western literati were in fact
>also aware of the sources of earlier days

Exactly! And Anonymus was trying to fill a void, because, as he stressed, no
satisfactory work on the subject existed, not to repeat information that his
friend had already learned.

>(it sure does not appear that Anonymus was aware of the Annales Fulda or
>Luitprands writings or the DAI either)

How often are the Western sources referring to the east-of-the-Danube regions?

>Anonymus
>is certainly in conflict also with the DAI on the presence of Hungarians in
>some of regions (i.e. Galad in Keve, Kovin across from the Morava) very
>specifically described in the DAI.

Anonymus' Gesta and Porphyrogenitus' DAI  were conceived by authors that had
different goals in mind  That DAI and Gesta did not record the same events
[i.e. Constantine did not mention Glad, and, in turn, Anonymus did not
mentioned Sphendoplokos]is not a conflict nor a contradiction. Moreover,
something you keep forgetting, the time frame is not quite the same. In
Constantine's days the Conquest was already accomplished. This is why he
describes the geography of "Turkey." By contrast, Anonymus focuses on minute
details of the Conquest days, east of the Danube.

>I am not picking specifically on Anonymus, in all of the chronicles some
>then current events or folk names are inserted and the part for which they
>had no references, they just invented.

Is it reasonable to assume that Anonymous intended to mislead with an
"invented" story the Hungarian nobility or the royal family descending from
Arpad?

>> Some Hungarian historians [e.g., Gyorffy] claim that he made Gelou out
>> of Gyula, conveniently ignoring the fact that Gelou  and Gyula appear
>> together in chapter 24 in distinct forms with reference to two
>> different persons.

>Please note that even in later Hungarian the
>term "Gyalui havasok" survived and to my knowledge nobody mixed them up
>with Gyula, except perhaps Anonymus again picking place names for supposed
>personalities.

In most situations the places were named after historical characters and not
the other way around. That Anonymus took exception and did exactly the
opposite, represents, again, an unwarranted assumption.

>> BTW is there a Romanian word derivation for Gyalu?

I'm not aware of one, but than again this doesn't mean too much. The copy of
Anonymus' manuscript recorded the name as Gelou, a spelling that might be
more or less correct. For a subjective person, the name may resemble
phonetically anything from the Roman "Julius" to the Dacian "Gerula" ;-)
However, and this time on a more serious note, the "u" ending is extremely
characteristic of the Romanian language (c.f., Radu, Iancu, Sandu)

>> How about the treatment he received outside of Hungary (and I don't
>> mean necessarily in the equally biased Romania)?
>
>I feel, based on what I read so far, the non-Hungarian interpretation is
>also mixed.

Is that a yes or a no? ;)

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: American Imperialism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:40 AM 8/5/96 -0400, Frank Aycock wrote:

>Actually, if the U.S. did take over Canada then English would become the
>official language of Canada, too, like the Congress is doing right now.
>Canadians would no longer need bilingual signs! :-) :-) :-)

I'm in favour of bilingual signs.  Official bilingualism acknowledges that
Canada is not just an English speaking nation.  It also sets Canadians apart
from that 'Great Satan' to the south.

I think that bilingual signs would be a good think in Slovakia and Romania.
It would make the Magyar speaking people feel a bit more at home in those
countries.  As it is now, the Slovak and Romanian law makers just have to
glance at America's unilingual law and feel that they too are moving in the
right direction.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:26 AM 8/5/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely, the Social Democrat, wrote:
>ESB:
>> the "working-class movement" in no way was influential in
>> twentieth-century Hungarian history.
>
>???                                               (Sz. Zoli)
>
>

And Joe Szalai, his comrade-in-arms (what a ridiculous notion but this is
what these two claim at least in this instance) added:
>
>You found that statement curious too, eh?  I suspect that for Eva Balogh,
>denial, is just a river in Egypt.
>
>Joe Szalai

        It just shows how little Hungarian history you know. Marxist, or if
you prefer, official socialist, historiography of the Kadar period, put an
inordinate emphasis on the "working-class movement" (munkasmozgalom) and
within that on the illegal communist party. But the fact was that the
Hungarian working class was very small and because of the restricted
franchise, politically impotent. The communist party was not only illegal
but was completely discredited after 1919. Therefore, writing a history of
the interwar period from the a vantage point which placed the working-class
movement in the center of historical development was totally misplaced.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: NPA office pool (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:37 AM 8/5/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> While we are on the topic of online crankeries and perception versus
>reality, it is interesting to note that just the other day someone (from a
>site in Germany) forged email messages in the name of a couple of HIX
>subscribers - Nemenyi among them - to take them off the list. The question
>now is: how long before the myth that it must have been a computer
>break-in to the victims' machines will take hold in the lore? I'd say,
>given the slowness of the summer days, that it may take up till this
>Wednesday for 5 independent Forum poster to show up and state this for a
>fact... Any other bets?

        I usually turn to Zoli Fekete on computer questions. And here is
one. NPA claimed that someone, using his e-mail address, unsubscribed him
from all HIX lists. Now, I am an innocent babe-in-arms when it comes to
computer swindles but I can't even imagine anyone being able to do this.

        Could you enlighten us, Zoli, on the subject?

        Eva B.
+ - Re: Letter to King Bela IV, Boba, Anonymus (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:08 PM 8/5/96 +0300, you wrote:

>        Turning now to Mrs. Balogh's question.
>Prof. Boba's views, unlike by American scholars, are generally not much
> supported in European circles.
>To be honest, I have been unable to look at the evidence he has for the suppor
t
> of his view of a southern Moravia, but the evidence looks to me overwhelmingl
y
> against such a hypothesis.
>This subject has very much become a combat of two schools and for the sake of
> fairness, I have to say that although I would almost certainly put my vote fo
r
> the view of a northern Moravia, I have not seen Prof. Boba's arguments in the
> original, but I thin
>that the evidence supplied by Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetus, speaks
> overwhelmingly against it.

>                                Regards to all,
>                                Dr. Panagiotis Antonopoulos
>

        I read his books years ago but I know very little about the original
sources of the period and therefore I couldn't possibly judge whether he was
right or wrong.

        Thank you for your answer,

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The nym issue (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:35 PM 8/4/96 -0400, Zoli wrote:

> And, back to the main point, seeing the name in the phonebook still
>should not give you the confidence you seem to attribute to real names.
>Someone seeking to assume a false identity could check those databases
>just as well, you know!


        Yes, of course, if you have that kind of of mind. I don't. I met
several internetters, by the way, in Hungary in March. There are people on
the Net who are relatives of mine; there are people whom I talked to on the
telephone; and in a few days I will meet one from Germany, right here in New
England. I corresponded also with Jeliko under his real name which, of
course, I keep to myself. So, most people are for real, I think.

        As for telephone calls. Almost every morning at 8:30 a man phones on
our business line and asks for one of the women here. By now I recognize his
voice and I simply say that the person is not in. But when I didn't and I
put her on the line, as soon as she said "Hello," the person hung up the
receiver. I can't figure out what can be so exciting about such a call for
this man but it obviously gives him some pleasure. And he is not from the
Internet--I am sure.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: American Imperialism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:44 PM 8/5/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I'm in favour of bilingual signs.  Official bilingualism acknowledges that
>Canada is not just an English speaking nation.  It also sets Canadians apart
>from that 'Great Satan' to the south.

        And what will happen when at the next referendum the people of
Quebec will vote to leave Canada. Does this mean that Canada then will be
indistinguishable from the "Great Satan" to the south?

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: American Imperialism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Very Interesting.....
The basic issues here are only somewhat related to having multiple
signs and having an official language.

I am in favor of having bi-lingual signs. They used to have them in Quebec
at one time, until certain groups, went overboard. Moreover, the "French"
speaking Canadians tried to FORCE the English speaking Canadians to
change their signs and LEARN only French. This was and is worng!

That it why Quebec LOST manyt of the businesses to Ontario!!!!


In Finland, for example, people have signsin Swedish whereever there
are atl least five percent (5%) Sweedes.  This shouuld be the way
it is in Romania, Slovakia, et al.

The other issue of having English as an "offical" language is
quite different from Joes' (and others') understanding.

It DOES NOT ANYWHERE or in any form PREVENT any language, store,
newspapaer, speaking, writing, singing, talking, etc. anywhere in the
USA [ THAT IS WHAT THE ROMANIANS an others want other to THINK!].

It ONLY states that IF you are going to take any "official" government
communications (i.e.: drivers tests, schooling, etc.) that it shall
be conducted in the official language (English).
Unlike Canada (who capitulated to the French Canadians) has ALL
Canadian Federal goverment stuff bi-lingual. <---- this is non-sense
when applied thorughout Canada. It is acceptable if applied in Quebec
only!  Anyhow....the basic theme here is to REDUCE the effort required
for the Feds to have multilingual voting, etc. There is a big
difference in having Street Signs bi-lingually vs. having ALL
signs in ONE language. There is both a size difference between
Romania and the USA but more importantly a CULTURAL difference!

The USA will never take away someones' right to display and USE
their native or ethnic tongues....whether it is on the street,
on a store sign, etc.In fact opne does NOT even have to have an
English equivalent (unless you do not want English business).

I hope that this makes it clear to all who care to know.
Peter Soltesz

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 10:40 AM 8/5/96 -0400, Frank Aycock wrote:
>
> >Actually, if the U.S. did take over Canada then English would become the
> >official language of Canada, too, like the Congress is doing right now.
> >Canadians would no longer need bilingual signs! :-) :-) :-)
>
> I'm in favour of bilingual signs.  Official bilingualism acknowledges that
> Canada is not just an English speaking nation.  It also sets Canadians apart
> from that 'Great Satan' to the south.
>
> I think that bilingual signs would be a good think in Slovakia and Romania.
> It would make the Magyar speaking people feel a bit more at home in those
> countries.  As it is now, the Slovak and Romanian law makers just have to
> glance at America's unilingual law and feel that they too are moving in the
> right direction.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
+ - Re: and about Hunyad / (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:26 PM 8/4/96 -0500, Liviu wrote, quoting me:

>The "Grosser Historischer Weltatlas" maps should have clarified by now that
>your characterization as "These are quite disperate [dispersed !?] regions"
>doesn't quite fit the reality.

        Sorry, I misspelled the word. I meant disparate, meaning markedly
distinct in quality or character.


>>        Thank you so much for the interesting description of possible
>>Romanian movements.
>>
>
>Sure. If you find the Daco-Romanian continuity more convincing, I would be
>interested to know why.

        Oh, no. You must have misunderstood me. I don't find the
Daco-Romanian continuity theory at all convincing. Simply on common sensical
observations. But I thought that it was widely accepted by Romanians.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The Nemenyi files (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:07 PM 8/3/96 -0400, JFerengi wrote:
>Eva,
>Its seems rather naive to expect NPA to reveal his game plan, or the
>specifics of his lawsuit to people who are singlemindedly bent on his
>destruction.

        NPA's game plan seems to be to force the government to reveal the
names of his so-called detractors. We will see.

>Eva, you wrote
>
>>The issue is not freedom of speech as long as we don't know whether
>>you were forced resign on the account of your antisemitic remarks on the
>>Internet or not. If we get hard evidence that Argonne National Laboratory
>>made you resign just because you made antisemitic remarks on the forums
>of
>>HIX, then the issue is going to be freedom of speech. But not until then!
>
>I found this to be very unfair and not the quality I've grown to expect
>from you.

        Why do you find this unfair? This is the only possible position to
take, unless you are a "true believer." As long as I don't have hard
evidence I simply cannot take NPA's word for it. Moreover, I consider the
real victims those people whose names have been bantered around for months
now as the possible "rats" and who are most likely totally innocent in this
whole affair. More and more of these "rats" keep telling me that they feel
sorry for NPA. I think they are rather nice rats!

>You have neatly sidestepped the the possibility that NPA never did
>anything wrong and that he was forced to resign because of pressure put
>upon Argonne. Under the cover of seeming fair and impartial you call him
>guilty twice.

        I simply don't know why NPA was forced to resign. We only know what
NPA chose to tell us. That is not enough evidence.

> I dont think he has ever admitted to being antisemitic.

        Why do you think that he would admit to being an antisemite. He
claims that he is only the seeker of truth. I guess, if I had antisemitic
impulses I wouldn't admit it either. It is not fashionable nowadays, you know.

>Much as I've
>observed, impartially I hope, there has been no hard evidence presented by
>anyone. Agnew came the closest with his Bronstein observation.

        Surely, you have received Gabor Farkas's samples over time from
NPA's selected writings on the Forum. If that doesn't convince you I think
nothing will.

>You are absolutely right, it is not desirable to have your mind made up in
>advance when doing research. People who have an agenda can find all kinds
>of interpretations to support even half baked theories. Please bear in
>mind that, that dictum cuts both ways. If you start with the premise that
>a person is guilty, you can always dig around and find supporting
>"evidence".

        But I am not one of them. In fact, just the opposite. I like to deal
with historical characters who have been abused and who has had a very bad
reputation as a result. For example, Istvan Friedrich, the first prime
minister of "the counterrevolutionary regime." I really had a good time
unearthing an entirely unknown side of him. You see, the left and the right
both hated him, so, I said to myself, he couldn't have been that bad. And he
wasn't.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:54 AM 8/5/96 -0500, Peter A. Nemenyi wrote:

>Joe Szalai asked:
>
>>What's your game, Mr. Nemenyi?
>
>There is no game Mr. Szalai. Just the need for knowledge.
>But you seem to be a little paranoid. Relax and take care
>of your bowel movement.

I'm just a bit curious.  What was in my last post that makes you think that
I "seem to be a little paranoid"?  It's an important question because what's
at stake here is your ability and skill to interprete written material.

By the way, feel free to liberally quote from my last post to strengthen
your argument.

Joe Szalai

"I envy paranoids; they actually feel
people are paying attention to them."
           Susan Sontag
+ - Re: NPA office pool (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>         I usually turn to Zoli Fekete on computer questions. And here is
> one. NPA claimed that someone, using his e-mail address, unsubscribed him
> from all HIX lists. Now, I am an innocent babe-in-arms when it comes to
> computer swindles but I can't even imagine anyone being able to do this.
 Yes, unfortunately this is not only possible but fairly easy to do - and
this is exactly what happened (to at least one another user as well not
only to NPA, incidentally). Email is very easy to forge (the open
technology is showing memories of the happier times when defending against
such swindles was not a primary concern ;-<) - pretty much every computer
can send a message pretending to come from anywhere else. There are traces
left and a cautious enough server might catch this (as did Hollosi's
manual post-mortem check), but most software like the list-servers by
default rely on the lack of malice from its users so there are no
safeguards built in.
 While committing an attack like this is nearly trivial, getting away
with it undetected is not - I think the person responsible will regret it
once having to face their system administration.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMgZFQcQ/4s87M5ohAQE5UgH/f4UfstSRt9Zn91ddnKnGVxlN3wNHiN/g
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+ - Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>And everybody knows that Rakosi and Farkas were Jewish.

There were not one word of it in school. I learned about it much later
from old folks whispering it among themselves.

>It would be interesting to conduct a survery among "the average
>laymen," in order to ascertain how many people know Petofi's original name.
>I bet not as many as you think.

Interestingly I remember of this subject from school, though. :-)

>>The fact that they happened to be Jewish names need not worry the Jews on
>>this list.  I don't think anyone here is going to be blamed for the crimes of
>>Rakosi and his ilk.

>But you are wrong. Some people make gross generalizations based on
>Jewish participation in 1919 and after 1945.

Those are wrong. Because there were Jews against the communism as well.

>No one suggests "silence." The question of Jewish participation in
>1919, for example, is a legitimate one and historians have tried to answer
>the question: why such preponderance of people of Jewish extraction. There
>are several hypotheses concerning this question.

Then I say it again. There were no mention of their origin in school, during
Kadar's time.

>First of all, don't compare my thinking to that of the Kadar regime.

It might be,... but sure it seems that way.

NPA.
+ - NPA office pool (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wants to know:

>I usually turn to Zoli Fekete on computer questions. And here is
>one. NPA claimed that someone, using his e-mail address, unsubscribed him
>from all HIX lists. Now, I am an innocent babe-in-arms when it comes to
>computer swindles but I can't even imagine anyone being able to do this.

>Could you enlighten us, Zoli, on the subject?

I can enlighten you Eva. There were not break ins as it turned out to
be a day later, but someone faked the header of my account and unsubscribed
me from all the HIX. sources.

Jozsef Hollosy claimed to take action against the perpetrator. Now suddenly
I hear, that I was only one of the many being harassed by this way.

How come, nobody complained openly before? :-)

NPA.
+ - The Nemenyi files (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>NPA's game plan seems to be to force the government to reveal the
>names of his so-called detractors. We will see.

Eva now speaks the truth, except I don't want "so-called dec tractors"
but "THE dec tractors"! :-)

>Why do you find this unfair? This is the only possible position to
>take, unless you are a "true believer." As long as I don't have hard
>evidence I simply cannot take NPA's word for it.

That is Eva's take in it. So what, then?

>Moreover, I consider the real victims those people whose names have been
>bantered around for months now as the possible "rats" and who are most
>likely totally innocent in this whole affair. More and more of these "rats"
>keep telling me that they feel sorry for NPA. I think they are rather nice
>rats!

And who might those people be? I mentioned the snoopers by names only.
And guess what? They even acknowledged what they did.

>I simply don't know why NPA was forced to resign. We only know what
>NPA chose to tell us. That is not enough evidence.

You and lot's of people simply don't know it. It is true. But this
is not my trial, and there is no need for me, to go any further
yet in this case. Whatever Eva wants to believe, suits me!

>>I dont think he has ever admitted to being antisemitic.

>Why do you think that he would admit to being an antisemite. He
>claims that he is only the seeker of truth. I guess, if I had antisemitic
>impulses I wouldn't admit it either. It is not fashionable nowadays, you know.

Eva lives in dream world. I am not antisemitic and not anti-Jew, but I
don't like if anybody is getting a most favored treatment in history.
In this country I could state, that I am such and such, it is a free
country. But why should I claim something, which I am not? See, I stick
to my beliefs, not like Eva Balogh, who wants to seat on two horses
with one ass!

>Surely, you have received Gabor Farkas's samples over time from
>NPA's selected writings on the Forum. If that doesn't convince you
>I think nothing will.

I get a great kick of this trial - like proceedings. It is miserable.
Farkas proved nothing, but one thing. He tries very hard to dig up
something to prove his sick claim. Keep trying boys & girls, ruin this
great list, and waste your time on stupid topic like this. Congratulation.

>But I am not one of them. In fact, just the opposite. I like to deal
>with historical characters who have been abused and who has had a very bad
>reputation as a result.

Is it so? Wow, when I dealt with Marx, I was rebutted to dig up, his
historical character. Seems like, the reason I side stepped my boundaries
then, because I touched on someone untouchable.

NPA.
+ - Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:

>I'm just a bit curious.  What was in my last post that makes you think that
>I "seem to be a little paranoid"?  It's an important question because what's
>at stake here is your ability and skill to interprete written material.

Yes. The tone of your approach is questionable. Oh and let me say...
This is not my game. And not even a game at all.

>By the way, feel free to liberally quote from my last post to strengthen
>your argument.

No need for it. Just not worth it. As soon as we can discuss matters on
the same level, I might find your letters dealing with me worthwhile!

>"I envy paranoids; they actually feel people are paying attention to them."

I don't, especially when they just don't let the subject die for a little.
Believe me. If you don't bark at that tree I wont deal with it   either,
until the case worth talking about again.

NPA.
+ - Re: American Imperialism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:59 AM 8/5/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        And what will happen when at the next referendum the people of
>Quebec will vote to leave Canada. Does this mean that Canada then will be
>indistinguishable from the "Great Satan" to the south?

Yes.  Canadians will be as indistinguishable from the Americans as the
Belarussians are from the Russians.  I can't tell one from the other, can you?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Before I give up and cry, I'll try to restate my puzzlement at Eva Balogh's
comment that the "working-class movement" was in no way influential in
twentieth century Hungarian history.

At 07:40 AM 8/5/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

<...snip>
>But, at
>the same time, we don't need such distortion of Hungarian history which
>emphasizes the "working-class movement" of Hungary when the "working-class
>movement" in no way was influential in twentieth-century Hungarian history.

Then at 11:59 AM 8/5/96 -0700, Eva Baloght wrote:

<...snip>
>Therefore, writing a history of
>the interwar period from the a vantage point which placed the working-class
>movement in the center of historical development was totally misplaced.

Eva Balogh's first comment is about the twentieth century.  That would cover
most of the years between 1901 and today.  Then, through some magic, which I
don't understand, the twentieth century is squeezed into the interwar years.

I would be inclined to agree with Eva Balogh's comment that the
"working-class movement" was not influential betweeen the wars in Hungary.
But from 1946 to 1989??  Oh, come on!  Whether one liked that period or not,
and I'm beginning to suspect that she didn't, it was still a part of this
century.  Also, there may be questions about whether or not 'the party'
represented the "working-class movement", but that is a different question.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: On early East-European history (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva writes:

>        I have been following Jeliko's and Liviu's exchange of early
>historical sources with some fascination and every time I read the word
>"Moravia," I have to think of the American-Hungarian-Polish scholar (Imre
>Boba?) at the University of Washington who wrote a fascinating book about
>Moravia sometime in the 1970s. If I recall his thesis was that the Moravia
>Cyril and Method reached wasn't the Moravia of today but the area around the
>river Morava. What I would like to know is whether his thesis stands up to
>historical scrutiny or not.

"Moravia's history reconsidered" was printed in 1971, but Boba had planted
the seeds of his theory in a 1967 article, "The Episcopacy of Sf.Methodius,"
published in Slavic Review.

For the most recent rebuttals of Boba's theory, see the two papers published
by the Slavist Henrik Birnbaum in 1993 (Byzantinoslavica, 54, 336-338, and
American Contributions to the 11th International Congress of Slavists,
1-22.) I dare to say that, in my opinion,  none of them made much of an
impact but in the soles of some die-hard believers.

Moreover, two very recent books on the subject have confirmed, in general
lines, the core of Boba's hypothesis: megale Moravia was somewhere in
southern Pannonia. The first one, by Charles Bowlus, represents a brilliant
analysis of all the relevant Latin sources that were often invoked as
disproving Boba's theory. The book [Bowlus, C.R., 1995, Franks, Moravians,
and Magyars: The struggle for the middle Danube, 788-907. University of
Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, 420] should probably arise the interest of
many readers of this forum.

Even more recent is Martin Eggers' 1995 "Das "Grossmahrische Reich:"
Realitat oder Fiktion? Eine Neuinterpretation der Quellen zur Geschichte des
mittleren Donauraumes im 9. Jhdt. A. Hiersemann, Stuttgart, 525p." I did not
read it, but, since its manuscript was available to Bowlus, I am somehow
familiar with Eggers' conclusions. He reviewed all the archeological
information on the subject and concluded, apparently contrary to what Boba
believed, that Rastislav's capital was on the site of the present-day Cenad
in Romania (Marosvar). Boba thought that the center of megale Moravia was at
or near Sirmium. The conclusions of Boba and Eggers do not  necessarily come
into contradiction.

Boba's theory is not yet 30 years old, which means it is still very young on
a historical time-scale ;-) Although, Prof. Boba passed away in January of
this year, he left behind not only the fruits of his outstanding work, but
also, as you can see, quite a few followers and fans.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: The nym issue (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

> When I found out about such a message being posted, I would simply
>disavow it, that is all.

You are making the assumptions that: 1) you would find out that such a
message was posted.  2)  your disavowals were accepted  3) that everyone
who saw the damaging post would also see the disavowal


>
The second method of launching an attack on me would be for *nefarious*
characters (for such they would have to be to denounce me :-)) to denounce
me to my superiors. But, why would anyone bother?

People are motivated to act more by their emotions than by their logic.
Therefore we cannot always find "logical" reasons for hate crimes.

> But my personal
preference would be for everyone who posts to use their real names, or at
least a real nickname, and feel that no one had to fear any recriminations
as long as he or she did not break the law.

That would be my preference too.
Wouldn't that be nice? Sadly, recriminations occur whether one breaks the
law or not. Or did the Unabomber only attack criminals?


>Wouldn't one *always* have the opportunity to stand up for oneself? When
would one not?

You would not if  you were not aware of what was going on. But the damage
was done anyway.


>> But I tend to
>> believe that if one is the holder of reasonable and sensible opinions,
there
>> is no reason to hide behind a pseudonym, because there should not be
>> repercussions from promulgating reasonable beliefs, and in any case,
one
>> should be prepared to stand up for one's beliefs if one feels that they
>> *are* reasonable.


Being reasonable is not a shield against the slings and arrows of
outrageous netizens.
Should my family members also be made to stand up and be targets for any
crazies that happen to dislike what I say? Should my children be somehow
held accountable just because I have a hobby that involves political
discussion?
What degree of risk is acceptable?


Star Trek did not take the name from me. My choice was a kind of spur of
the moment one. Like naming your kid after the first thing you see.;-)
"Why do you ask, Two Dogs .........?"

Turns out that, Ferengi is a Farsi (Persian) word. Have heard some other
languages claim it too. It means foreigner.
I have considered changing it because of the unpleasant visuals but
several hundred people have come to know me well by that name, so I guard
it well.
The name JFerengi has a reputation now. And I am not ashamed of it.
I have revealed my real name to several people on this list, whether we
agree politically or not. If someone is foaming at the mouth, I would
prefer that they do not know who I am. How can I tell if someone is
foaming??By what they post. Not by their name, real or not. Plus, how many
people just read and have not posted yet?

Were you the girl in the back who was daydreaming in my Biology class?

>suggests that you are the more suspicious of actual tampering with your
messages. Are you more paranoid, or just more realistic than we are?

Does Zoli have some sort of official capacity here? If he does, then his
posts need to have a greater degree of security than those of other
members. If not, then let personal choice decide.


Just because someone is paranoid does not mean that people are not out to
get him. :))
+ - Re: American Imperialism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:17 PM 8/5/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 11:59 AM 8/5/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>        And what will happen when at the next referendum the people of
>>Quebec will vote to leave Canada. Does this mean that Canada then will be
>>indistinguishable from the "Great Satan" to the south?
>
>Yes.  Canadians will be as indistinguishable from the Americans as the
>Belarussians are from the Russians.  I can't tell one from the other, can you?

        By looking at them or by listening to them speak?

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:17 PM 8/5/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>Before I give up and cry, I'll try to restate my puzzlement at Eva Balogh's
>comment that the "working-class movement" was in no way influential in
>twentieth century Hungarian history.
>
>At 07:40 AM 8/5/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
><...snip>
>>But, at
>>the same time, we don't need such distortion of Hungarian history which
>>emphasizes the "working-class movement" of Hungary when the "working-class
>>movement" in no way was influential in twentieth-century Hungarian history.
>
>Then at 11:59 AM 8/5/96 -0700, Eva Baloght wrote:
>
><...snip>
>>Therefore, writing a history of
>>the interwar period from the a vantage point which placed the working-class
>>movement in the center of historical development was totally misplaced.
>
>Eva Balogh's first comment is about the twentieth century.  That would cover
>most of the years between 1901 and today.  Then, through some magic, which I
>don't understand, the twentieth century is squeezed into the interwar years.


        Well, it was not very important between 1901 and 1918 either. In
1918 there were only 200,000 unionized workers in whole of Hungary.

>I would be inclined to agree with Eva Balogh's comment that the
>"working-class movement" was not influential betweeen the wars in Hungary.
>But from 1946 to 1989??  Oh, come on!

        First of all. Until very recently the post-1945 period couldn't be
really studied because of the documents could not be used. Or rather, a few
people could use them only. The trusted ones. In any case, one couldn't call
this period a legitimate study of history. Second, whatever happened after
1945 was something which was forced on Hungary from the outside. If the
Russians had not been there with their Muscovite Hungarian communists
friends, the "working-class movement" most likely would have been minimal,
although, of course, with the passing of time, agricultural Hungary would
have been more and more industrialized.

        So, in brief: I don't consider the working-class movement of much
importance as a driving force in twentieth-century history.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: On early East-European history (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:25 PM 8/5/96 -0500, Liviu wrote:

>"Moravia's history reconsidered" was printed in 1971, but Boba had planted
>the seeds of his theory in a 1967 article, "The Episcopacy of Sf.Methodius,"
>published in Slavic Review.

        I missed that. Perhaps then I wasn't yet a subscriber to Slavic Review.



>Boba's theory is not yet 30 years old, which means it is still very young on
>a historical time-scale ;-) Although, Prof. Boba passed away in January of
>this year, he left behind not only the fruits of his outstanding work, but
>also, as you can see, quite a few followers and fans.

        I just remember of being terribly impressed. I even corresponded
with Professor Boba at the time because I discovered a very late response to
his thesis in a Hungarian periodical. It turned out that he didn't see it
and I was glad to send him a xerox copy of it.

        It was a few months ago on the Internet that I heard about his
death. I was saddened: he couldn't have been terribly old.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Historical conference on the millecentennial celebratio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Millecentenariumi tortenesztanacskozas (MH)
>
>A nacionalista eloiteletek tulelik a politikat, amely letrehozta
>oket, s a kutatok csak akkor mutathatjak fel a multbeli valosagot,
>ha megtisztitjak a tortenelmet a rarakodott nacionalizmustol.  E
>gondolat jegyeben nyitotta meg a millecentenariumi tortenesz
>konferenciat Kosary Domokos.

        Briefly. Domokos Kosary, president of the Hungarian Academy of
Sciences between 1990 and 1996, made the opening speech in which he
emphasized that researchers can present the reality of the past only if they
clear history from nationalism.

        This is what I am trying to explain to our amateur historians. This
has nothing to do with the Kadar regime but it corresponds to Western
historical opinions. The kind I was taught.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Peter Nemenyi wrote:

> Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>>Andras Peter Nemenyi wrote:

>>And everybody knows that Rakosi and Farkas were Jewish.

> There were not one word of it in school. I learned about it much later
> from old folks whispering it among themselves.

>>>The fact that they happened to be Jewish names need not worry the Jews on
>>>this list.  I don't think anyone here is going to be blamed for the crimes o
f
>>>Rakosi and his ilk.

>>But you are wrong. Some people make gross generalizations based on
>>Jewish participation in 1919 and after 1945.

Indeed.  NPA is unable or unwilling to understand.

Just as, to stay with Hungarian examples, no one feels it necessary to
point out that Kossuth was of Slovak extraction, Damjanics of South
Slav extraction, Erkel of German extraction, when mentioning them in
the everyday context of their times and deeds, it is similarly immaterial
if someone had Jewish ancestry.  (I suggest that Peto"fi is different,
as it is quite revealing how little 'Hungarian blood' was needed to
become one of the most nationalistic Hungarian poets.)

Doing so is obviously designed to attract attention to an aspect that
is not relevant for most contexts.  This creates an impression that the
person has a bone to pick with Jews which is hard to distinguish from
anti-Semitism.

And, unlike most other ethnicities, after a long history of pogroms
culminating in the Holocaust, Jews can be excused for being twitchy
about references to Jewishness where the context does not require that.
Especially when such references refer to people who are/were of no
religious disposition, hence had next to no Jewish identity as far as
the Jewish community or themselves were concerned.

This DOES warrant some discretion: if you wish to call that imposed
silence it merely indicates a  very curious lack of perceptiveness in
one particular direction.  This contrasts starkly with an extreme
perceptiveness in other directions (i.e., the conspiracy theories you
promote).

>>First of all, don't compare my thinking to that of the Kadar regime.

> It might be,... but sure it seems that way.

How ironic: this is exactly how you end up being called an anti-Semite.

George Antony

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