Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 921
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-02-21
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
5 HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind)  154 sor     (cikkei)
6 HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind)  154 sor     (cikkei)
7 HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind)  154 sor     (cikkei)
8 HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind)  154 sor     (cikkei)
9 HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind)  154 sor     (cikkei)
10 HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind)  154 sor     (cikkei)
11 Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: The 7 magyar tribes (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: The Hungarian left: 20 percent? (mind)  261 sor     (cikkei)
14 Duna per hirei (2/21/97) (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
15 Fwd: new site design (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
16 Fwd: new site design (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
17 Fwd: new site design (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Him again (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)
19 HL-Action: Support students attending lawsuit (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Him again (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Some folks (myself included) think it is risky and unwise to try to
lobby sitting judges of the International Court in the Hague, or any
other court, in regard to matters currently pending before them.  Peter
Orban stated that an unnamed but important lawyer he consulted does
not think so.  I have no way to answer an argument of this sort, except
to say I am underwhelmed.

Charlie Vamossy responds to the same point in somewhat more detail:

> As far as an independent judiciary is concerned, their independence may
> be assured by lifetime appointments, adequate pay, etc.  Being
> independent does not mean they are insulated from life and that their
> judgements can not be swayed by the power of argument and fact.  Indeed,
> adversarial arguments pro and con are the basis of the judicial process.

I would rather say adversarial arguments pro and con, presented
*in court*, serve as the basis of the judicial process.

In the Paula Jones case before the Supreme Court it was widely
reported that the plaintiff's lawyer is a regular poker-playing
buddy of Chief Justice Rehnquist.  What do you think would happen
if it came to be known that they discussed the merits of the case
at the poker table?  Aside from breaking the iron-clad rule against
talking shop during a card game, do you think there would be any
consequences for either of them?  If not, why not?

If I would so much as attempt to contact a jury member in a pending
court case, I could be charged with jury tampering.  Juries are
regularly admonished to ignore all hearsay, theories, etc. they heard
outside of the courtroom, whether they come from TV, newspapers, or
their manicurist.  In cases receiving heavy coverage, juries are
sequestered for the duration of the trial (although I suppose their
manicurist can still work them over from time to time).  Why are juries
not allowed to be "swayed by the power of argument and fact"?  Because
arguments and facts heard outside of the sworn courtroom testimony
are, by definition, hearsay.  The point of a court proceeding is to
restrict the range of "arguments and facts" to evidence that was
ruled admissible by the presiding judge, and exclude all other sources
of "arguments and facts" from the case.  This is to ensure that
the verdict is fair, and seen to be fair.

> As far as protesting a miscarriage of justice *after* the verdict, of
> course it is a right, but no more than expressing opinion before the
> verdict. It's pretty much useless, though... The proper protest is an
> appeal to a higher court, hoping to reverse the verdict.

I did not dispute the wisdom or rightfulness of expressing an opinion.
The Op-Ed pages of the NY Times are full of advice to the courts about
one case or another.  What we are discussing is the wisdom of
expressing an opinion in the form of a letter-writing campaign directed
at a member of the court.  Let's say there is a five percent risk that
such pressure tactics might backfire, and you end up harming the very
cause you are trying to help.  Would you still think it is a good idea
to go ahead?

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves Gabor!

At 20:00 20/02/97 PST, you wrote:
>Some folks (myself included) think it is risky and unwise to try to
>lobby sitting judges of the International Court in the Hague, or any
>other court, in regard to matters currently pending before them.  Peter
>Orban stated that an unnamed but important lawyer he consulted does
>not think so.  I have no way to answer an argument of this sort, except
>to say I am underwhelmed.

<snip snip>

I applaud your thoughtful and detailed response in this matter. I agree with
you, that, regardless of the affirmation of the unnamed lawyer with whom
Peter Orban spoke, it would seem to be an ill-advised tactic to lobby the
World Court judges in relation to the case.

Thanks for stating your case so lucidly and, to my mind, compellingly.

O"szinte tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

> Charlie Vamossy responds to the same point in somewhat more detail:
>
> > As far as an independent judiciary is concerned, their independence may
> > be assured by lifetime appointments, adequate pay, etc.  Being
> > independent does not mean they are insulated from life and that their
> > judgements can not be swayed by the power of argument and fact.  Indeed,
> > adversarial arguments pro and con are the basis of the judicial process.
>
> I would rather say adversarial arguments pro and con, presented
> *in court*, serve as the basis of the judicial process.
>
   Charlie is right in saying that judges are not insulated from
life. Indeed, many studies have established the fact that judges
are influenced  by their backgrounds.  Such studies  go back for
decades. And all this is  "factored" into our  judicial process.
(Interestingly enough,  my study in the mid  70's has discovered
the lack of  such influence  in the case of  Administrative  Law
Judges). However, it is wrong to assume that judges can and will
be swayed by "out of court arguments", lobbying.
   I have expressed my disagreement with this letter campaign in
an earlier post and I stand by my view.  Peter's discovery of an
attorney does in no way change my mind.  As I have said earlier,
such a campaign will result in the  alienation of those domestic
and foreign leaders whose help the action was to attain.
   Johanne seems to see the question in the same light.
   I am not deluding myself that  because of my view on the mat-
ter the campaign will stop. True believers are seldom swayed.But
I would be amiss not to comment on it.
                                         Amos
+ - Re: Lobbying the Judiciary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Fencsik writes:

>Some folks (myself included) think it is risky and unwise to try to
>lobby sitting judges of the International Court in the Hague, or any
>other court, in regard to matters currently pending before them.  Peter
>Orban stated that an unnamed but important lawyer he consulted does
>not think so.  I have no way to answer an argument of this sort, except
>to say I am underwhelmed.

I do not have the foggiest idea, under what legal system or procedure the
International Court operates. I am not trained in law. So this is a private
opinion. At least under US law, one can formally "lobby" the court by
participating in the proceedings as a
"friend of the court". As far as I know this requires following all of the
rules of the procedure and filing the appropriate documentation and
submitting testimony on the subject. It means that the "friend of the court"
participates in either the pro or the contra of the particular issue. It is
not done by lobbying the individual members of the court. It may also
require that the court recognizes such participation and it may not be
possible to participate in the proceedings if the court does not accept such
participation.

In fact there is a lot of direct lobbying of judges in the US, but it is
generally done
prior to their election to the post. Many organizations want a particular
judge elected who favors their views on some or many subjects. Lobbying may
take place, sub rosa, after the election also, particularly before a
reelection campaign.

Because the judges of the International Court are not, per se, elected but
assigned to that position, most likely because the assigning government's
(or other appropriate authority's) philosophy is represented by the assigned
individual, the lobbying should be done with the folks who have a say in who
gets assigned rather than the assignee.

It would also behoove the lobbiers to do their homework on the individual
they want to lobby before initiating any direct or indirect activity. What
is his background? What similar cases did he handle? What were the
directions of his past ruling, or publications on the same or similar
subjects? And so on. There can be lobbying done in a manner that can be
successful by preparing and publishing "learned" papers on the subject in
specific journals or other publications, even better if in the publications
of the soceities or organizations of which the judge is a known member.

Direct letter writing to an individual judge, particularly as an organized
campaign, could and in my opinion will backfire and not produce the expected
results.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
+ - HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
+ - HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
   

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
+ - HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
+ - HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
+ - HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
+ - Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following was in the Globa and Mail today.
_____________
Prime Minister Jean Chretien keeps adding to the list of countries he
wants to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization even as Canada cuts
back its own involvement in the military alliance.

In addition to the Czech Republic, Poland and Hungary, Mr. Chretien added
Romania, Slovenia and Slovakia yesterday to the group of former Communist
states that he believes should be members of NATO.

Canada's endorsement is important to these countries. All have sent
high-level delegations to Ottawa, or soon will, as decisive expansion
meetings approach.

Czech Prime Minister Vaclav Klaus arrived in Ottawa yesterday for a
three-day visit to get Mr. Chr tien's endorsement of Prague's NATO bid on
the record one more time before NATO's July meeting in Madrid, which will
determine which countries make the cut.

The Czech Republic is at the top of the list, along with Poland and
Hungary, because they all have achieved democratic and free-market
economic reforms, Mr. Chretien told reporters as Mr. Klaus smiled
appreciatively.

Mr. Chretien then identified Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania as countries
he personally favours for NATO membership. But he acknowledged that not
all six are likely to make it during the first round at Madrid.

Mr. Chretien's inclusion of Slovakia surprised some in the Czech
delegation.

Slovakia is the eastern portion of what used to be Czechoslovakia before
the countries split in 1992. Few in the Czech Republic believe the Slovaks
have made anything near the gains of their own country in terms of
democratic or economic reforms.

Romanian government sources suggest that Canada's interest in selling
their country another Candu nuclear power reactor may be a factor in
winning Canada's endorsement for NATO membership.
_________________

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The 7 magyar tribes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 18 Feb 1997 01:55:11 GMT,  (aheringer) wrote:

>In article >,  says...
>>
>>I was wondering if anybody can tell me the names of the seven chiefs
>>that came with Arpad? Also, is there any way of knowing which tribe
>>you are descended from?
>>
>>                        -Istvan Varga
>>
>Arpad, Elod, Kond, Ond, Tass, Huba, Tohotom.
>
>
>Agnes
>
I am afraid that although these seven names sound familiar to each of
us, it is doubtful whether they are the exact names of the initial
tribes (which were not necessarily seven. Nb mystical connotation of
seven).
Unfortunatelly I cannot tell you the names which are more likely than
Arpad, Elod, Old etc., but if you have some courage to go on searching
on this topic, find a book by Istvan Nemeskurty. He knows much more
about this than I do.

Csaba Koppany
+ - Re: The Hungarian left: 20 percent? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>At 05:18 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
>>Well, well, I have to disappoint you Eva. We have never had an exchange
>>about the size of the Hungarian left. We was talking about the popularity
>>of NATO (and joining it) in Hungary. You pointed out that the main opposition
>>comes from the extrem left (Munkaspart) and extrem/populist right (FKGP,
>>MIEP). Furthermore you tried to explain the public opinion in Hungary
>>based on this, i.e 20% right-winger and 20% left-winger (if I am right
>>you used this expression which means 'szelsobaloldali' to me) make up
>>the total 40-45% opposition. Now, I still doubt that there would be 20%
>>'szelsobal' in Hungary.
>
>        Janos, I don't think that you remember correctly. But I will try to
>look it up for you. It simply doesn't ring the bell for me and I have pretty
>good memory.

You don't have to look it up, I have done it for you. This might ring that bell
.
Bellow is the whole exchange between me and E.Balogh, the passages related to
the topic are emphasized.

E.Balogh's first post:


>=========================================================================
>Date:         Sat, 8 Feb 1997 18:43:14 -0500
>Reply-To:     Hungarian Discussion List >
>Sender:       Hungarian Discussion List >
>From:         "Eva S. Balogh" >
>Subject:      Re: Oh, No -- NATO!
>
>At 01:35 AM 2/8/97 GMT, Sam wrote:
>
>>I'm wondering just how much enthusiasm there is in Hungary for NATO
>>membership. Most of the stuff I've read over the last year left me with
>>the impression that the Hungarians were ambivalent about NATO membership
>>at best and that the idea of an Austrian-style neutrality had a lot of
>>public backing. What do you folks think?
>
>        I would say that by and large you are right, Sam. On the FORUM we
>had a rather protracted discussion on NATO and I must say that the pro-NATO
>people were in minority, my humble self included. As it turned out the
>vice-president of the unreformed communist party in Hungary (Munkaspart)
>joined the FORUM about a month ago and the Munkaspart is the strongest
>opponent of NATO. (Mind you, the party secretary, a certain Gyula Thurmer,
>also supports Milosevic and gave hearty endorsement--a bit prematurely--to
>the leaders of the communist coup attempt in Russia!!)  The Munkaspart also
>has a website where you can vote on the NATO issue. According to the latest
>results the pro-NATO people are leading by a few hundred votes. Our vice
>president made quite a headway on the list. But, of course, the ideological
>makeup of the active participants of that list is not representative of the
>population as a whole. According to the latest opinion polls, a fair number
>of people are still undecided and the rest is about 50-50.
>
>        The ideological underpinnings of this question go back to the
>populist (narodnik) movement of the 1930s. These writers and "village
>researchers" were greatly influenced by a certain Wilhelm Ro:pke who wrote a
>book called The Third Road. Ro:pke's book was translated into Hungarian and
>made quite an impact. Apparently, to really understand what Ro:pke is
>talking about is not that easy but he certainly was very anti-capitalist.
>His ideas in a somewhat vulgarized form can be translated as seeking a
>"third road" between capitalism and socialism/communism. The Hungarian
>populists loved this idea and unfortunately they made quite an impact on the
>national psyche. Today there are quite a few people who somehow think that
>Hungary should avoid the pitfalls of western capitalism. As I said to one of
>the proponents of this crazy idea on the FORUM: "Hungary has never really
>had a full-fledged, western-type capitalism and you are already thinking
>about how to improve on it. Why don't you give a chance for a well regulated
>market economy first?" Those people who are committed to the "nepi-nemzeti"
>(that is right of center) politics are really the followers of the populists
>of the 1930s. Add to these people the left-wingers (I would consider them to
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>be 15-20% of the population) and then you have close to fifty percent of the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>electorate who are against NATO because their "third-road ideas" are also
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>influencing their thinking about NATO.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>        I have a real aversion to the populist ideology in the first place
>and I find any kind of anti-NATO propaganda dangerous for Hungary. Someone
>whose field is Hungarian foreign policy between the two world wars and
>general European diplomatic history during the same period, I am horrified
>at the thought that Eastern Europe could become no man's land again. As I
>tried to explain Russia is in bad shape now but sooner or later she will
>recover. And given the internal political scene there we have no idea what
>kind of regime will emerge in, let's say, five years in Russia.
>
>        By the way, some people who participated in the discussion couldn't
>understand how it was possible that practically all the 1956-ers are for
>NATO today when they championed for neutrality in 1956. Again, times change,
>people change. Then the best Hungary could achieve was neutrality a la
>Austria. Also, the influence of populists was as strong then as it is now,
>if not stronger. Since then the situation has changed and my own thinking
>has changed on the subject. Today I would find it a tragedy if the majority
>of the Hungarian people, misled and uninformed, would vote against NATO.
>
>        Eva Balogh


My response was:

>=========================================================================
>Date:         Sun, 9 Feb 1997 04:22:02 -0500
>Reply-To:     Hungarian Discussion List >
>Sender:       Hungarian Discussion List >
>From:         Janos Zsargo >
>Subject:      Re: Oh, No -- NATO!
>
>E.Balogh wrote:
>
>>vice-president of the unreformed communist party in Hungary (Munkaspart)
>>joined the FORUM about a month ago and the Munkaspart is the strongest
>>opponent of NATO. (Mind you, the party secretary, a certain Gyula Thurmer,
>>also supports Milosevic and gave hearty endorsement--a bit prematurely--to
>>the leaders of the communist coup attempt in Russia!!)  The Munkaspart also
>>has a website where you can vote on the NATO issue. According to the latest
>>results the pro-NATO people are leading by a few hundred votes. Our vice
>
>I don't think that they can be dangereous. The 'Munkaspart' is a political
>'nobody', they have 2-3% popularity. Most of the 'serious' political party
>is pro-NATO, with the possible exception of the FKGP. I guess you meant them
>when you wrote:
>
>>market economy first?" Those people who are committed to the "nepi-nemzeti"
>>(that is right of center) politics are really the followers of the populists
>>of the 1930s. Add to these people the left-wingers (I would consider them to
>>be 15-20% of the population) and then you have close to fifty percent of the
>>electorate who are against NATO because their "third-road ideas" are also
>>influencing their thinking about NATO.
>
>These 'third-road ideas' are the real dangers. And I would add one more.
>Last summer when I was at home, I talked about this NATO issue with my
>family members. Let's say they was not really enthusiastic about the
>idea. They were not against it, but simple did not believe it. They
>kept saying 'they (i.e NATO) won't accept us, why to force it'. The
>same type of stupidy as the one made so many people to vote for the
>Socialist Party.
>
>>        I have a real aversion to the populist ideology in the first place
>>and I find any kind of anti-NATO propaganda dangerous for Hungary. Someone
>>whose field is Hungarian foreign policy between the two world wars and
>>general European diplomatic history during the same period, I am horrified
>>at the thought that Eastern Europe could become no man's land again. As I
>>tried to explain Russia is in bad shape now but sooner or later she will
>>recover. And given the internal political scene there we have no idea what
>>kind of regime will emerge in, let's say, five years in Russia.
>
>I am glad to see that we have the same opinion in one subject at least.
>
>J.Zs
>
>P.S: By the way that 15-20% left-winger is just a joke, isn't it?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


And then E.Balogh:



>=========================================================================
>Date:         Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:22:21 -0500
>Reply-To:     Hungarian Discussion List >
>Sender:       Hungarian Discussion List >
>From:         "Eva S. Balogh" >
>Subject:      Re: Oh, No -- NATO!
>
>At 04:22 AM 2/9/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
>>E.Balogh wrote:
>
>>The Munkaspart also
>>>has a website where you can vote on the NATO issue. According to the latest
>>>results the pro-NATO people are leading by a few hundred votes. Our vice
>
>Janos Zsargo:
>
>>I don't think that they can be dangereous. The 'Munkaspart' is a political
>>'nobody', they have 2-3% popularity. Most of the 'serious' political party
>>is pro-NATO, with the possible exception of the FKGP.
>
>        Oh, they are not dangerous in the political sense although I bet
>that at the next elections they will pass the 5% threshold and will be able
>to sent a couple of representatives to Parliament. But their constant
>harping on NATO, their collecting over 200,000 signatures for a
>referendum--I consider these activities dangerous given the ambivalent
>attitude of the electorate.
>
>>These 'third-road ideas' are the real dangers. And I would add one more.
>>Last summer when I was at home, I talked about this NATO issue with my
>>family members. Let's say they was not really enthusiastic about the
>>idea. They were not against it, but simple did not believe it. They
>>kept saying 'they (i.e NATO) won't accept us, why to force it'. The
>>same type of stupidy as the one made so many people to vote for the
>>Socialist Party.
>
>        I would phrase it a little differently. Instead of stupidity I would
>speak of ignorance and short-sightedness. They look at Russia now and they
>say: Golly, they can't even handle the Chechens. We have nothing to fear.
>They somehow look at the world as something static. The Russians are
>weak--so they are weak. We don't have to worry. That is the
>short-sightedness side of it. The ignorance on matters of history and
>different parts of the world is also staggering. The more I read
>contributions of especially younger people (in their late twenties, early
>thirties) the more I realize that the socialist propaganda made serious
>inroads in Hungary. (Mind you, if you tell them that they will deny it to
>their last breaths: they were never influenced by their surroundings!) First
>of all, there are fairly fierce anti-American feelings and they look upon
>NATO as the exclusive creation of the United States. Second, a widespread
>aversion to capitalism (whether that feeling comes from the populist
>third-road ideas or from the teachings of the Kadar-regime it really doesn't
>matter. The result is the same.) Third, a total lack of true appreciation of
>Hungary's place--or any other small country's for that matter--in the world.
>When someone rather wisely mentioned that Hungary being a small country has
>only limited choices in foreign affairs, an angry young man shouted back:
>"But I will never reconcile myself to that! Never!!" (I wonder what he is
>planning to do about it(;)) When you tell some of these people that Hungary
>right now must build a workable market economy and, yes, the Hungarians must
>learn from other, western nations, in this endeavor because they are the
>ones who have experience, angry shouts come back: "We have had to listen to
>the Russians until now and we are not going to listen again, this time to
>the Americans." "We don't want to get lectures from people living in the
>United States!" And after that comes a litany of American sins from the high
>rate of crime to capitalist "free looting" and hamburgers.
>
>>I am glad to see that we have the same opinion in one subject at least.
>
>        If you stick around long enough we might agree on many more issues (;)
)
>
>>P.S: By the way that 15-20% left-winger is just a joke, isn't it?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>        No, I am not joking although I am guessing. My assessment is based
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>on various polls, asking questions which may be pertinent in determining
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>people's political leanings. And, by the way, you may have noticed but more
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and more left-wingers, apologists for the Kadar-regime, pro-Soviet
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sentiments are being uttered on the lists. And one more thing, based on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>personal experiences and also based on utterances on the Internet I am
>coming to the conclusion that perhaps the majority of the population has no
>appreciation of democracy and they simply cannot see the differences between
>a democratic state and a non-democratic one. In fact, many of them are
>certain that democracy means anarchy and brought suffering to Hungary.
>
>        As for the Smallholders (since you mentioned that they may not be
>for NATO), I am sure they are not for NATO, even if Torgyan doesn't say so
>openly. Not only that but I bet that Torgyan's followers--and that is about
>20 percent of the electorate right now--will go to the polls and vote with a
>"no" to NATO. In brief, I am worried about the referendum and the
>governments in Hungary are not noted for being able to "communicate" with
>the population. Again, I think because they are not accustomed to the kind
>of openness and accountibility we take for granted.
>
>        Eva Balogh
+ - Duna per hirei (2/21/97) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves Kollegak!

Marcius 3-7 kozott a magyar, marcius 10-14 kozott a szlovak fel
allaspontjanak Haga-i szobeli ismertetese utan, aprilis 1-4 kozott a birosag
helyszini szemlere a tersegbe erkezik. (Latni fogjak a ma mar sziget nelkuli
Szigetkozt, a szennyviz csatornava alazott hatarfolyot, mely korhazba kuldi a
tajekozatlan furdozot es latni fogjak a teherautokat, melyek zacskokban
szallitjak a falvakba az ivovizet. A doglott halakat, az elkoltozott
madarakat, a kiszaradt novenyzetet mar nem fogjak latni.)

Azt, hogy a terseg, s az orszag kozvelemenyerol kepet kapnak-e az ENSZ Birak,
azt elore nem tudhatjuk, az Onokon mulik. Azt viszont fontosnak tartjuk, hogy
a tuntetesek meltosagosak, hang nelkuliek, a feliratok tomorek, targyilagosak
es angol nyelvuek legyenek. A biroknak erezniuk kell, hogy a nemzetkozi
jogrendben, a hagai birosagban, a megjelent birokban megbizo, az altaluk
dontesben, az altaluk szolgaltatando igazsagban bizo tuntetok tomegeit
latjak. A vilagsajtonak nem csak arrol kell hirt adnia, hogy melyik fel volt
az utonallo, s melyik a kirabolt aldozat, de arrol is, hogy nepunk a
nemzetkozi jogot tisztelo, a demokraciara megerrett nep.

A targyalas folyaman a nemzetkozi kornyezetvedelmi NGOk Hagaban, (a Carnegie
Plein-en, a birosag epuletevel szemben, a rendorseg altal kijelolt helyen)
reggel 9-tol delutan 5-ig folyamatos nema picketelest tartanak. A tuntetest
femjelzi majd a ma mar 10 eves kek transzparensunk, mely megjarta Bost es
Dunacsunt ugyanugy, mint Washingtont, New Yorkot es Pozsonyt.

A sajtot folyamatosan tajekoztatja majd az NGOk tajekoztatasi irodaja es a
honlapunk, mely uj formatumban, s friss anyaggal lathato a:
 http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
cimen. Kerjuk latogassak azt, s terjeszek az ott latottakat. Kulonosen
kerjuk, hogy Onok is irjanak Gore alelnok urnak, ki mar 1993-ban
kijelentette, hogy hajlando segiteni.

Tudjuk, hogy e pert csak megnyerni lehet. Tudjuk azt is, hogy 1956 ota nem
volt meg alkalom, amikor hazankra ugy felfigyelt volna a vilag, mint teszi
azt majd az elkovetkezo hetekben. Legyunk meltoak erre ugy a birosagot
tisztelo, az o dontesukben megbizo viselkedesunkkel, mint azzal is, hogy ez
alkalombol megmozduljon az egesz orszag, s egy emberkent alljon ki a
megalazott nemzetkozi jog es a Szigetkoz vedelmeben (ne pedig otthon a TV
elott ulve, mint nezo figyelje, hogy hatarfolyoja, osi termeszeti ertekei
felett mikent dontenek masok).

Liptak Bela
+ - Fwd: new site design (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (K. Mendonca)
Reply-to:	
To:	
Date: 97-02-21 11:40:54 EST

Hi Bela Bacsi,

You may have noticed I reorganized the Web site to use
frames for navigation. It dawned on me that this may not
work well on an AOL browser. How does it look to you?

Thanks,

Kriszti
+ - Fwd: new site design (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (K. Mendonca)
Reply-to:	
To:	
Date: 97-02-21 11:40:54 EST

Hi Bela Bacsi,

You may have noticed I reorganized the Web site to use
frames for navigation. It dawned on me that this may not
work well on an AOL browser. How does it look to you?

Thanks,

Kriszti
+ - Fwd: new site design (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (K. Mendonca)
Reply-to:       
To:     
Date: 97-02-21 11:40:54 EST

Hi Bela Bacsi,

You may have noticed I reorganized the Web site to use
frames for navigation. It dawned on me that this may not
work well on an AOL browser. How does it look to you?

Thanks,

Kriszti
+ - Re: Him again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I made a mild comment on the list which he responded to by a pr-prepared threat
, this after he explicitly stated that he will have nothing further to do with 
the list.
Obviously he is still tuned in and responds personally to anything he disagrees
 with.
I disagree strongly with calling people names and would ask all to desist. Howe
ver there is the principle of free speech and if one subscribes to a list one h
as to accept that these messages will arrive in one's mailbox

regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  jeliko[SMTP:]
Sent:  Thursday, 20 February 1997 8:02
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Him again

Andy Kozma writes:

>A HUNGARY listan, a Balogh es
>magyar gyulolo cinkosai alig varjak, hogy hazankat nepunket fasisztanak es
>antiszemitistanak mazoljak.  Azon a listan van egy Kozma nevu zsido aki
>tenyleg utalja es szapulja a hazankat es nepunket.  Ne a vallast hanem az
>embert nezzetek.
>Well I have this question?Do I have the right to copy this statement about
>myself?
>I would appreciate Jeliko,you oppinion about this.
>On the other hand I wonder how come this deranged Lippai is allowed to
>slander somebody,whom he never met,or talked to.
>Truthfully,at the first reading I got hot under my collar,but after,I jus
>realised,if I hate hungary and hungarians,this would be an excellent reason.
>I have more than this,but I still can not hate all the poeple,neither in
>Hungary,nor anywhere else.
>What they did to myself and my family was not a glorious.
>I have my oppinion,and that is realy not very flatering,about those times in
>Hungary.
>Andy.
>

You have a right to copy anything you like Andy. My wonderment is the desire
to participate in lists (there is no indication where the message
originated) where this type of discussion is going on. If it was a list in
which I have participated, I would fight my battles about it on that list.
But if your reposting here was to indicate
the manner of discussion on another list, I am glad that I am not
participating in it.

In the past, I have also received personal hate letters from some Romanian
and Slovak
list participants when I have posted historical items that they have
(apparently violently) disagreed with. I do not draw the conclusion from
those hate letters that all Romanians or all Slovaks (or for that matter any
significant majority in those countries) hate me or hate Hungarians or
Hungary in general.

The postings are made by individuals, and generalization in any direction
can not be justified. One can always draw extensive conclusions about the
individual who posts just by the style and the language used (and I do not
mean grammatical or spelling correctness), completly aside from the text itself
.

As the saying goes: If one wrestles with pigs he will get filthy and the
pigs enjoy it"

Regards,Jeliko
+ - HL-Action: Support students attending lawsuit (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  urgent

Background
   The lawsuit at the at the International Court of Justice, which
will adjudicate on the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia concerning
the rerouting of the Danube onto Slovak territory, will open in March.

   Thirty Hungarian lawschool students will observe the Danube
lawsuit in the Hague until the sentence is passed. It is important
that a large number of people who are supporting our matter attend the
lawsuit. These students are paying the journey to The Hague and their
housing in the Netherlands themselves. Unfortunately not all of them
has enough money for the food, which is not cheap there.

What to do:
  Please contribute to the livings of the thirty Hungarian lawschool
students. EVERY DOLLAR COUNTS!!! THESE STUDENTS ARE IN THE HAGUE TO
DEFEND OUR DANUBE, OUR COUNTRY. THEY ARE THERE FOR US!!
  If you want to contribute, please send an e-mail with your name,
address and the amount you want to donor to:
  

   You will get information where and how to send the money as soon as

possible. Every donor will receive a detailed counting about the
money.

**********************************************************************
+ - Re: Him again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Denes:  At 09:00 AM 22/02/97 +1100, you wrote:
<snip>
>I disagree strongly with calling people names and would ask all to desist.
[,,,]
To a point I must agree with you  ...  however one must also consider the
possibilities of intricate inter-personal relationships being in existence,
which are not obvious to all.  By this I mean that really, none of us are
truly privy to the "personal friendships/foes" which may have developed
between members of this list, off the list over time - through mutual
consent.  As such, it is conceivable that any onlooker would deem comments
to be extremely derogatory, when in fact, those comments may simply be
nothing more than an exchange of some private jokes between two, or for
that matter between several of the lists' correspondents.

 >However there is the principle of free speech and if one subscribes to a
list >one has to accept that these messages will arrive in one's mailbox
[...]
If you are referring to posts arriving via Email, generated through the
server of any group one is subscribed to, I have no further comment, since
I agree whole heartedly.

However, if you are referring to list-members privy to all other
list-members' Email addresses,  who consider it their God-given right to
bombard email addresses - off the list, and continue to do so even after
being blatantly told that their intrusion is unwelcome, then I am afraid I
cannot even begin to agree with you.  In this instance, as far as I am
concerned the fine line between freedom of speech and invasion of privacy
become a judgement call.  Mine leans heavily towards the latter.

Getting more specific ... the post you are replying to ... Mr. Lippai,
(affectionately referred to as Lipps&Ass) has not only taken great pleasure
in invading many list members' private Email addresses in the past but
continues to make a habit of such despite numerous requests, warnings et al
to seize.  All the while, his private Email messages rarely if ever reflect
the words he speaks publicly ... as evidenced in fact, quite the contrary.
(One could easily conclude that he is missing marbles in more places than
is depicted literally)  This specific case, to me is a violation of privacy
in the highest degree .....   Let me put it in other terms .... Were he to
show up at my doorsteps, I would immediately request some authority to
remove him (police, mental institution?  - toss up) rather than welcome his
presence, which would otherwise be the norm;  - All this based on nothing
more than that, which he himself has shown to be thus far.

Regards, Aniko

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