I find it amazing that somehow the media and advertising managed to
permanently place "million" man march. Far cry from it!!!! Perhaps it
ought to be called the 300K men??? Of course now it will be called
the megamen march!

It seems strange to me that Farrakan can go to Libia, Syria, etc. give &
take moneys from  America's enemies, yet one cannot even buy a good
Havana cigar in the States (it is illegal to even have one!0
Skewed system we have????

Joe...
you must be daft!!! Obviously you are too immature to carry on a
civilized conversation on what reality is. Perhaps you have been
sleeping in a dearm world and cannot wake up to reality!


On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 04:24 PM 7/22/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>
> >Perhaps then, and only then, will the reds, pinkos, corrupt bastards get
> >thrown out, and then the county will have a chance of rebirth!
>
> I just love the way you dehumanize people.  First it was the undesirables in
> the Turkish baths in Budapest.  Then came 'the doles'.  Now it's the reds,
> pinkos, and corrupt bastards.  In another or your posts/rants today it was
> the Germans and Russians. Tell me Peter, have you learnt how to say "Sieg
> Heil!" yet?
>
> Joe Szalai
>

My daughter just completed a very enjoyable year in Szentes, teaching English a
t
the gimnazium there as a part of the Teach Hungary program.  It was a very
rewarding experience for her, and she was able to absorb some of the culture of
Hungary and begin to pick up the basics of the language.  At the end of this
year she decided (reluctantly, and with many mixed emotions) to end her
participation in the program and return to the United States.

Now, she is wondering what American organizations might be trying to open or
expand their operations in Hungary.  She would be interested in working for suc
h
an organization so that she could make use of her exposure to Hungarian languag
e
and culture, and to have the opportunity to revisit the country on a regular
basis.

Can anyone on this list offer any suggestions as to what organizations might fi
t
into this category?  Or, are you aware of any other lists or sources of this
kind of information?

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated.  Please respond to me directly
instead of cluttering up the list.  Thanks...

Mike Lukas

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 09:53 AM 7/20/96 -0700, Norma Rudinsky wrote:
> >The mothers of Joe and Gabor must have got around, because (though my own
> >English and Welsh family dinners were different) in Banska Stiavnica my
> >Slovak in-laws' Sunday dinners were the same.  And the cucumber salad was
made
> >with peeled sliced cucumbers in vinegar and water, salted, peppered, and
> >red with paprika?
>
>         Oh, yes, the cucumber salad was made with peeled sliced (very thinly
> sliced! cucumber in vinegar and water (little sugar added), salt, pepper and
> paprika dusted on the top of it. Occasionally, sliced green peppers were
> added for decoration.
>
>         Eva B.


Our family enjoyed the raditional Sunday dinners too. But one Sunday we did
not. Mother managed to get a half
kilo veal for "ra'ntott hu's". Since we did not have a fridge (1952 +/-) she
took it down to the coal cellar to
keep it cool while we went to church Sunday morning. However, she forgot that
one of the window panes was
missing. When we came home from church, she found an empty vajling (bowl) with
the szita (sieve) that covered
it, knocked over. To make a sad story short, that Sunday one (or more) of the
local felines had the traditional
Sunday Dinner, not us.

Jozsi Hill

Bandi wrote:


> Now, why would anybody, in his right mind would want to learn such an
> impossibly difficult language?
>


What do you mean 'impossible'? In Hungary every three year old speaks it!;)

Jozsi
from the gyertya bolt (candle store)

At 08:18 PM 7/22/96 -0400, Sz. Zoli wrote:

>D. Farkas said:
>> I thought we were talking about Farrakhan and not
>> about the other participants.
>That means not everybody is nazi? Only the organizers?
>How comes then that the media greeted the Million Man
>March which was organized by nazis, and the key speaker
>was a nazi? I just don't get it.
>
>And how could American nazis call up 1 million people
>into Washington to demonstrate at the White House and
>the Capitol? Is it possible, anyway, in a democracy?
>
>Well, I have a clue. You probably don't consider the
>US a democracy. If they allow nazis to organize such a
>big public event... That would explain a lot!

I never knew that mathematicians have imagination. I was wrong. Please, keep
explaining what else is implied in my one sentence. After all Archimedes
said: give me a fixed point and I will move the Earth (or something like
that). You are paraphrasing it: "Farkas D. said x, and that means
f(x)=3x+c/d*3.14".

Gabor D. Farkas

At 06:13 PM 7/22/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>Not only is it shameful, but rather it clearly shows that the left hand
>does not know what the right hand is doing!
>On one hand they want to join NATO deperately and join the EU but when it
>comes to civilized bhavior, then we all get Booed!

        I just read somewhere that the Hungarians want the NATO but they
don't want either pay for it or they don't want NATO troops stationed in
Hungary. The situation is the same in Poland.

>They should be happy that it is the North Americans that are there now
>and not the Germans, Rusiians, and all those others that used to trample
>poor Hungary.  I guess if they have nothing better to do...then why not
>booo???

        When the Russian troops stayed "temporarly" in Hungary for four
decades no one could say a word against their presence. And the Hungarians
didn't. Now, they complain and complain about the troops being there in
connection with IFOR. The extreme left and the extreme right are both
against their presence.

        Eva B.

Pacsni is a somewhat distant relative of kifli: it is roughly the same length,
but straight (without the kifli's curve) and the cross-section is roughly
rectangular. It is made of a kind of sweeet dough, with raisins: the closest
thing in the US is raisin bagel (which of course has completely different
shape).  To his credit, Orsza1gh has the word, and defines it as "flat roll",
which is essentially correct, though not very informative. Unfortunately he
adds the parenthetical remark "with poppyseeds", which is just plain wrong.
Nem ma1kos, mazsola1s.

Andra1s Kornai

> Gyorgy Korda, a singer, had to pay some three million forints penalty
Note that this sum is a few percent of the building cost of Mr. Korda's
small hotel (3MFt ~ $22,000).

At 04:24 PM 7/22/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>Zoli...if you think that jailing mr. Bokroswould solve the problem then
>go ahead! I think it clearly shows that you do not understand what he was
>trying to accomplish >>> the necessary things <<< without which Hungary
>will NEVER get ourtt of its quagmire, except of course by another

        Yoo bad that Lajos Bokros wasn't more diplomatic a man and as a
result it was so easy to get rid of him. As a very intelligent Hungarian
from Sweden just said in the Szalon he and Mr. Kupa (another finance
minister who had to go, that time under the Antall government) were the only
two who had some guts. All the pants of all the others are usually full:
afraid to do what is necessary.

        Eva B.

Andy Kozma wrote:

>I just wonder Mr.Nemenyi how come you tell me what I should write
>about?1You don't have any right to tell anyone what he or even she
>sould do.

That is quite an interesting point you made. How come, that  I was
told "not to write" certain things? Or you meant, I don't have the
right to do so, but some people have the right to curtail my free
speech, if it's content they don't like ? Tell it to those who are
running around reporting others!

>If you let your dirty laundry out of the bag,and advertise it on to
>threads,i belive this was more personal then my question to you Mr.
>NPA.

It seems, that Mr. Kozma plays stupid here. He started this thread on
Hungary # 730. I hope Mr. Kozma can  show me my earlier  articles  on
Hungary discussing this matter. If he can not, than the only thing he
is doing, nothing but provocation.

>Furhter your letters about certain people whom you accuse for giving
>you all this pain,isn't that more personal than  the question : what
>are you doing with your time?

Mr. Kozma is missing the point again. I did not snooped   around  his
firm ever, I did not post false informations about him and  his  boss
under false name and address. If I ever do  such,  than  Mr. Kozma is
going to have all the rights to accuse me of the truth. And I didn't
accuse. I merely stated the facts.

>Honestly I don't give a dam,since this is also a social topic your own.

Wrong buddy. This is not my case.  That case  is just  another  attack
against free speech in a great country like the USA. What happened with
me, can happen with any of us. Think about it!

>I will buzz off when the Us takes over Canda.Till then we have freedom
>of speech,and even the nazi collaborators can live piecefully in this
>country.

Please look up what hypocrite means. I you are for free speech, than you
would try to save those who are snooping around other's firm,   who are
communicating under false name and false address and practicing
denouncements so typical for the communists of the fifties!

>I meant the so called war criminals,Mr,Nemenyi.
>Good fishing.A.K.

What does it have to do, with free speech Mr. Kozma? And what does fishing
have to do with free speech? But if you want a new thread on war criminals
getting rich in North America, I am open for it. Than we can talk about
Klaus Barbie and Army Counterintelligence Corps (CIC), or Adolf Eichmann's
senior aide, Otto von Bolschwing and the CIC. Or you know what? We can
touch on the leader of Nazi biological warfare research, Dr. Kurt Blome who
were hired by the U.S. Army Chemical Corps. We can talk about Allen Dulles,
Frank Wisner and the CIA. That is nothing but history. You are for the free
speech, are you? :-)  Your miserable points can backfire, so keep shooting
them away!

NPA.

Recently, I was inadvertently exposed to some hard evidence in the Peter
Andras Nemenyi (NPA) case, and I feel compelled to share with you my
conclusions.  The facts presented to me prove, beyond a reasonable
doubt, that:

1.  ANL "strongly suggested" that NPA quit.  It was easier for everybody
    this way.  Otherwise he would have been fired.

2.  ANL was alerted from the outside to NPA's allegedly antisemitic
    views.  Were it not for such allegations, anl would not have pursued
    the case.

3.  The "antisemitism" and "propagating pornographic materials" charges
    were dropped, and changed to "private use of government computers".

4.  In previous newsletters, as well as verbally, employees within anl
    were encouraged to use Internet, in particular netscape.

5.  NPA is not, by definition cannot be, antisemitic.

Reading the reactions on HUNGARY, some of which seemed to be quite
satisfied with the outcome of the Nemenyi case, few others sounded
outright malicious, one cannot help but think: what would any of us do
HAD THIS HAPPENED TO US??  Getting a (good) job these days is very
difficult, and although some of you may still be students, put yourselves
in NPA's shoes!  What if you had a family to support?  Sob stories we've
heard a few recently, but Peter's present life has been turned into one,
unnecessesarily, by people of the intolerant kind.

Now I would like to challenge those who have commented on the case to give
straight (yes/no) answers to a few GENERAL questions.  Just for the record.
So Nemenyi can't accuse you any more; so far the Nemenyi-deplorers have
been careful to avoid making any such statements.

a.  Do you think it is all right for a company/government to fire an
    employee for using company computers, assuming his/her job performance
    rating is excellent, computer usage is outside of normal (if not
    flexible) working hours, and the usage does not incur any additional
    costs (ie. paper, electricity, etc.)?

b.  Is it (ethically) OK to "tell on" somebody if you don't agree with
    his/her views?  Does the end of silencing someone's "wrong" opinions
    justify any and all means thereto?

c.  Do you, unequivocally, believe in the unconditional right to free
    speech?

d.  Do you believe in equal protection under the law?

Corollaries:
If you answered "no" to a., then NPA's was firing was wrong.
If you answered "no" to b., then NPA's turning in was (morally) wrong.
If you answered "no" to c., you may not want to live in the USA.  It
will only cause you further confusion and problems.
If you answered "no" to d., you may want to select those who should be
the privileged ones.  Don't be bashful in specifying the "correct" views.

Also just for the record, it would be nice if all those who have been
"insinuated" by Nemenyi would publicly distance themselves from the
"whistleblower".  Otherwise, please state clearly that Nemenyi deserved
what he got.  It's all right, I think we can all tell a true democrat
when we see one, but let's have it black and white.  Let's call an ass
an ass, and not an Arabian horse.

As for Nemenyi reopening his case, I think he should.  But after all
that happened, and all the ill-wishing cyber-grins and name calling
going on as we speak, it is only understandable that he's selective in
whose advice and help he is going to accept.  After the incident,
trusting anyone would be just as foolish as using the anl account was,
while the  was available all along.

Last comment.  In some sense, the Nemenyi case brought about a loss of
innocence on the Internet.  Once the trust is gone, it is gone forever.
We now know that there are people out there who don't shy away from any
means, even harming others, in order to suppress opposing opinions.  They
find one's weaknesses, then exploit them in a cowardly, anonymous and
ruthless fashion.  I vaguely remember a funny man by the name of McCarthy
who had a funny hobby: he liked to investigate, blackmail, prosecute and
ultimately-- carrier-wise --destroy (or even imprison) "un-americans" who
did not agree with him.  The popular tag-word back then was: communism.
True or not, it worked.  The labels change from time to time.  Terrorism
is in again, and it comes in many shapes and sizes.

Thanks for your attention.

Barna Bihari

PS.  A little tidbit:  The school district at which my wife works, has
recently bought a portable PC for each of its teachers! (not bad, eh?)  Of
course, all on public money, partly YOUR Federal Tax dollars, if you will.
The teachers have been openly and publicly encouraged to take the PC home,
and use netscape to download and play games, read news articles, etc., all
of which is personal use.  Why?  Maybe they'll learn to use it faster and
better, perhaps they'll be more productive in their own jobs as well?
Think about it, it actually makes perfect sense.

At 03:48 PM 7/22/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Interestingly enough, the same day the article in Nepszabadsag was
>published, another one in Magyar Hirlap describes that Gyorgy Korda, a
>singer, had to pay some three million forints penalty for deviating from the
>plans when building his huge house.

Just to add to this, my cousin is building a house on the Danube.  His main
gas lead into the house was found to be on a neighbouring property (all of
1" in dia) and he was forced to unmantle and redirect, as to adhere with
building regulations.  Judging by his experiences and comments regarding
zoning and regulations, I would have to say that such certainly exist and
are being inforced.  I think the writer of the article was a tad off track
also.  The lots in general in Hungary, most specifically in Buda have been
historically very small thus forcing builders upwards, rather than
sprawling.  I have not noticed any significance difference in vegetation in
Buda.  There's still plenty there.  Unless of course you are in Rozsadomb,
(where Horn's home is).  There is tremendous growth and overpopulation
there; some of the vegetation has been eliminated - in order to allow for
the buildings, but it appears that good care is being utilized in keeping
all possible vegetation intact.

I have however noted a tremendous swing towards 'development type' buildings
in smaller villages, which the locals call American Style homes.  They are
prefabs but utilize forged steel in lieu of wood.  The houses look neat, but
the developers tend to flatten the land; subdivide into small lots and build
accordingly.  Even at this, special care is given to maintaining the older
trees as to give the appearence of an older more estabalished development.
These being single family dwellings, the lots are somewhat larger than
previously utilized. Neat concept; sure beats the developers theory around
here, where they bulldoze anything alive prior to building.

Best Regards,
Aniko

Eva Balogh wrote:
>         When the Russian troops stayed "temporarly" in Hungary for four
> decades no one could say a word against their presence. And the Hungarians
> didn't.
She must know that, she spent the last 4 decades in
Hungary, or what...? ;-)

I learned the following song in 1980:

Esik eso, azik a baka.
Orosz testverek, menjetek haza.
Veget ert a haboru mar regen,
Semmi szukseg nincsen
A tankotokra orosz katona.

[It is raining, the soldier gets wet,
Russian brothers, why don't you go home?
The war ended a long time ago,
No need for your tanks
At all, Russian soldier.]

Peace be with you:             Sz. Zoli

> >D. Farkas said:
> >> I thought we were talking about Farrakhan and not
> >> about the other participants.
> >That means not everybody is nazi? Only the organizers?
> >How comes then that the media greeted the Million Man
> >March which was organized by nazis, and the key speaker
> >was a nazi? I just don't get it.
OK, Gabor, I see you don't get it either.
If you accuse Farrakhan to be a nazi, then
who are the people in his organization?
Why would they elect a nazi to be their
leader, if they are not nazis as well?

That's what you should explain.

And: Do you have any doubt that the Million
Man's March was organized by Farrakhan and
his people?
                                Sz. Zoli

George Szaszvari wrote:

>You rightly state that there have been, and are, other threads on
>the fascist theme, of which nazism is just one, each with their own
>priorities; prevailing local conditions dictate (so to speak.) Yes,
>people often interchangeably use fascist and nazi, sloppy perhaps,
>but it's the modern vernacular. Personally, I prefer to call Farrakhan
>and his ilk fascist rather than nazi, but I still know what people mean
>when they refer to him as nazi. (Perhaps I should call him nazi,
>instead?) Anyway, the term *black fascism* is gaining some currency
>in the UK, mainly from the growing number of victims of black crime.

My opinion is, that even calling  Mr. Farrakhan a  fascist is not quite
accurate. He is not for Italian National Socialism, and not for American
National Socialism either. He is for race dominance. The only reason why
Farrakhan's movement is labeled lately fascist is, because he has great
differences with the Jewish community. Calling Farrakhan is an antisemite
is counterproductive, because he and his people took a religion so typical
of semites. So a label of an old regime was borrowed for quick political
identification. But that doesn't fit right, because Farrakhan's people
would not like the Germans either for their color. So the another label
had to be picked. Now we are at the buzz word, fascism.

The real problem with Farrakhan's movement is the historical inaccuracy.
Meanwhile he is preaching about slavery, he forgets to mention, that the
first slaves in North America were whites, and there were also black
slave owners in possession of white slaves. Furthermore, the very slave
traders were those semites (arabs) whose religion his movement adapted.
And needless to mention, that chiefs of many African tribes were simply
selling out their people to the slave merchants.

I think the wright word for his movement should be Race Chauvinism.

>Because many justify the criminal activities of black perpetrators as a
>natural fight against whitey and the whole white dominated system, in a
>similar way that Hitler used others as scapegoats to justify his own evil,
>an attitude that is a luxurious alibi for not having think for one's self,
>as though nobody else in history, or even now, had it tough, was enslaved,
>were victims of genocide, etc.

I would like to add, that USA. can not be compared in any ways to Hitler's
Germany. Germany was much more homogeneous, with much more race unity.
The American case is quite a typical of a race power struggle due to an earlier
large scale race importation. And of course those are also feeding the
flames, who are pushing reparations, affirmative actions, etc.

>I side with blacks, and anyone else, in the generic fight against greed,
>hate, racism and injustice, but I'm against them on their moronic ticket of
>*our problems are all whitey's fault, so let's get 'em*.

Mr. Szaszvari has a valid point here.

>Fascism originally had more to do with strong centralized political
>government allowing free local economies to flourish, but the popular
>meaning of fascism is now, rightly or wrongly, associated with the
>attitudes and behaviour of one of its greatest champions, Hitler
>the nazi.

I totally agree with the above statements, except the very last words.
Hitler wasn't a champion of fascism. He was a champion of Nazism. A
religion like form of absolute power, grew out of German National
Socialism, killing many of it's original leaders.


NPA.

Mr. Farkas wrote:

>>Hey, it is then a Nice New World in the United States
>>of America!! According to Doc Farkas, the biggest human
>>rights event in this decade, the Million Man March was
>>?organized by nazis... Let's understand this statement:
>>Was it then the 'Million Nazis  March' ??

>I thought we were talking about Farrakhan and not about the
>other participants.

Whatever has happened with collective responsibility? :-)

NPA.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

> I find it amazing that somehow the media and advertising managed to
> permanently place "million" man march. Far cry from it!!!! Perhaps it
> ought to be called the 300K men??? Of course now it will be called
> the megamen march!

 Actually, last I heard the (semi-)official number was over 0.5M (in the
neighborhood of 600K I believe), so it could be rounded up ;-). Of course
the real question is how a few hundred thousands of disappointed man
lining up behind a demagogue would make that a human rights event - and
somehow elevate the petty reverse racist ideology to something valuable on
the one hand, and a justification for looking more leniently to others'
racism on the other hand ;-<...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Eva Balogh wrote:
> >I already know, that you don't like Erzsebet Gidai bacause
> >she is a former member of the communist party.
>
>         Not because she was a communist party member. I should dislike an
> awful lot of people if that was my criteria. I dislike her because she is
> stupid, ignorant, and is an enemy of democracy and the free market.
So she is
    (1) stupid,
    (2) ignorant,
    (3) enemy
just because she has different views from yours.
That's what I would like to call tolerance
a'la Eva Balogh.

Why don't you send her straight to Siberia?

> >How about the economic growth, which was artificially stopped
> >in 94? Why did the liberals force the government to cut
> >and cut without implementing a healthy growth in the
> >economy?
>
>         Interesting switch from the subject on hand. By the way, that
> healthy growth was not so terribly healthy and at the price of further debts.

No further depts in the growths of the neighboring
countries. The antisocial demamogiery can survive
in Hungary now, because the growth is artificially
blocked. They argue, that 'we have to cut in order
to grow', but in fact they don't support growth at
all. They block it out, so that they could advance
in the politics on an ideological basis. Just as in
the good ole times. That's the problem and it is
relevant when talking about social spending.

>         Whoever the "social bourgeoisie" is, I am not sure.
Sorry, I intended 'socialist bourgois'. That's what
                   ^^^^^^^^^
we have in Hungary now.

>         Oh, I see. All the economic troubles associated with the change of
> economic structures began only two years ago when the MDF-led government
> lost the elections.
That's not true. They began with the failure of the
68 reforms. After 68 the communists wanted to show
up success rather than the existing failures and
began extensively borrowing. Now, you and your
liberals, dear Eva, beat the hell out of us, Hungarians,
because of the failures and cowardliness of Kadar.

That's the point of Ms Gidai: we have to renegotiate
about this huge depts inherited from an illegitime
political course. (That's why you hate her so bad?)

                                           Sz. Zoli

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Barna L. Bihari wrote:
> 2.  ANL was alerted from the outside to NPA's allegedly antisemitic
>     views.  Were it not for such allegations, anl would not have pursued
>     the case.
 How do you know what would have been the case had it been differently?

> 3.  The "antisemitism" and "propagating pornographic materials" charges
>     were dropped, and changed to "private use of government computers".
 So then was it for the allegations dropped, or for the stated reason?

> 4.  In previous newsletters, as well as verbally, employees within anl
>     were encouraged to use Internet, in particular netscape.
 Posting and emailing is not particularly Netscape activity - which is
primarily browsing.

> 5.  NPA is not, by definition cannot be, antisemitic.
 What is this supposed to mean?

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Zoltan Fekete wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Barna L. Bihari wrote:
>> 2.ANL was alerted from the outside to NPA's allegedly antisemitic
>>views.  Were it not for such allegations, anl would not have pursued
>>the case.

>How do you know what would have been the case had it been differently?

Now comes the "would have been" excuses. That is how it was. There is
no record on previous firings on E-mail usage in the history  of  ANL.
So let's drop the "would have been" excuse.

>>3.  The "antisemitism" and "propagating pornographic materials" charges
>>   were dropped, and changed to "private use of government computers".

>So then was it for the allegations dropped, or for the stated reason?

It was dropped, because the only reason why I was accused of it, in the
first case, so I know why I will be ousted. But of course they didn't want
to make me a rich man overnight of openly violating my Constitutional
Rights!

>>4.  In previous newsletters, as well as verbally, employees within anl
>>were encouraged to use Internet, in particular netscape.

>Posting and emailing is not particularly Netscape activity - which is
>primarily browsing.

The memo mentioned E-mail activities as well. But let me ask something:
Using browsing time is less of a loss for ANL. than posting an article
of political content, written at home? Sure, it depends of it's content!

>>5.  NPA is not, by definition cannot be, antisemitic.

>What is this supposed to mean?

That he never claimed to be one. :-)

NPA.

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Maybe the American history badly misses the experience of
>the reigning violence. That could be the only reason some
>people still can believe in it. I wish you never had this
>experience. So you can show the way to us, Europeans,
>challenged by our stupid 20th century history.
>
>                                                 Sz. Zoli

I would imagine that with World Wars I and II, assorted Balkan conflicts,
the Spanish Civil War, the Russian Civil War, the Russo-Polish War and an
ongoing and assorted feast of intra-ethnic violence in its various nooks
and crannies, Europe bows to no continent or civilization in its embrace
of violence as a central part of its 20th Century history. Perhaps,
Zoltan, the litmus test is not whether a particular society or culture has
episodes of violence in its history, but whether it has learned enough
from that violence not to repeat it. The record, in America and Europe
alike, is rather mixed. Those Canadians, though -- they stride the Earth
like Hegelian gods, eh?
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- A personal note: Your attitude toward the U.S. and its history
reminds me of my brother's exchange student girlfriend during his senior
year of high school. When I was home from college one weekend, she took
out a book she had brought with her from Norway and showed it to me,
explaining that it documented the "on-going American Holocaust" against
blacks and lecturing me about how evil my country is. When I asked her to
explain her country's much longer, more vicious treatment of Lapps, she
shrugged it off by saying that Lapps didn't count because they weren't
completely human. Perhaps Europeans aren't so much challenged by their
history as by their stubborn refusal to hold themselves accountable for
some of its darker parts.

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >,
"Peter A. Soltesz" > writes:

>What follows is the complete NBC-TV stations listing:
>PLEASE call your local station (it is more effective) and complain
>about NBC sports coverage of the Hungarian activities.
>Thanx.
>Peter Soltesz

Yeah, and if they don't straighten up, we're gonna declare an icipici
szabadsagharc and get medieval on their heinies!
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>And I always believed this kind of behaviour was reserved for American
>troops only.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Would you have approved of it if it had been?
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- You mispelled "behavior."









P.S.S. -- That was a joke, Joe.

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, Andy Kozma
> writes:

>I will buzz off when the Us takes over Canda.Till then we have freedom of
>speech,and even the nazi collaborators can live piecefully in this
country.
>I meant the so called war criminals,Mr,Nemenyi.

Since when was freedom of speech annulled in the U.S., Andy? Yours was the
country that, just a year or two ago, allowed a judge to prevent American
newspapers and news magazines carrying accounts of a controversial murder
trial from circulating freely on Canadian soil. That's called "prior
restraint" here in the States and -- ta da! -- it's unconstitutional. When
we take over Canada, we will marry your daughters, move into your
neighborhood and drive down the property values, water down your beer and
move your remaining hockey franchises to places like Shreveport and Tulsa.
But you will still enjoy the full constitutional privilege of voicing
whatever stupid, ill-considered opinion happens to flail its way through
your speech centers and out of your mouth.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

Thank you for all the help with the surname Takacs
Can you help with this one?????

Dear All:
I am not here defending the IMF nor the World Bank. Lord knows that they
have anc ontinue to do many stupid things. However, lets keep to the
basic issues. Dr. Bathory has got it wrong!

1- It is Hungary that wants the loan and no-one is forcing them to take it.
2- It is Hungary that has not met the previously agreed to criterion.
3- Since when is it fashionable to say that loans should not come with
any strings (conditions) attached????
4- I think that the Hungarian gov't administrations ALL OF THEM have
royally screwed the Hungarian people...they did not need any help from
the IMF/WB group.


On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Bathory Gyorgy wrote:

> Anyhow I have to ad that my salary is equal to 150$ per month. Most
> of my colleagues get even less. The maintenance of my household and
> family requires about 350$ per month. I have one wife and three
> children, so I~m even more "economic" than Gidai`s lower limit. Me
> and my colleagues must go regularly abroad for better salary and in
> order to spare some money. Now I use, that money, what I collected
> during my stay in Italy. This money is enough for the next August. In
> September I have to go back and collect money again. Still we try
> return to home and try to continue teaching medical students.
>     I~m pretty sure, that the majority of the hungarians is convinced,
> that the government and the IMF/WB pushed Hungary into a catastrophe.
>
> dr Gyorgy Bathory
>

On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 23:50:40 -0700, Norma Rudinsky
> wrote:

>The term for rose hip jam used in SLovakia is Sipkovy lekvar (that's
>an sh), and it refers only to wild roses.  I can't explain the name,
>and the same word sip (ship) can also mean arrow.  Why should it be
>related to the "literary" Magyar word, not the common one?  (Czech is
>the same, and I should guess it's basic Slavic).

This words appear in the oldest Hungarian sources as "csipke" (anno
1113:  "piscina cipicas", i.e. "csipkes arok", whence the present
name of "Csipkesdi arok"). The same word can be found in many Slavic
languages,  cp. Bulgarian, Czech, Upper and Lower Sorbian,
Slovak, etc.  shipka as well as Serbo-Croatian shipak and Old Church
Slavonic ship6k6, all of them meaning of  'dog-rose bush, rose-hips;
thorn, prickle".

According to the Hungarian Historical-Etymological Dictionary (TESz),
the Hungarian word _csipke_ is a Bulgaric or Slovak borrowing.
Despite of this, the renewed Slavist Kniezsa Istvan explained that
this is impossible. As a matter of fact, there was  at least one
attested place-name in Hungarian which is of Slovak origin indeed. It
first appears anno 1352: "montem vulgariter Sypkheg dictum" [that is:
the mountain popularly called Shypk-hegy  (OklSz)]. This was the name
of a hill near the village of Kisugroc in the Nyitra county, and the
_shypk_ word is of Slovak origin indeed. You will note it has a
trailing sh-.

According to the point of view of Kniezsa, the Slavic words have always
a sh- while the oldest Hungarian texts report that the Hungarian
word begun always with a tsh- (i.e. cs-). Moreover, he pointed out
that in Hungarian the foreign sh- turns into tsh- only sporadically
and only very late in the history of the Hungarian language.

As a consequence of this, Kniezsa refused to accept the borrowing
taking place from a Slavic language. Despite of the coincidence that the
Slavic and Hungarian words are very similar in sound and meaning,
the common origin of these words is still to be explained.

As far as the second question is concerned, i.e.
>Why should it be related to the "literary" Magyar word, not the common one?

here "literary" means that the word "csipke" (that in Hungarian
has also the sense of "lace") is considered more "elegant" and more suitable
for literary purposes than the popular word "hecsedli" :-).


Paolo Agostini >

any one out there can help me ?
mike

http://www.complast.com
http://www.autoroute.net/~complex
E-Mail 
E-Mail 

Stowewrite wrote:
>
> In article >, Andy Kozma
> > writes:
>
> >I will buzz off when the Us takes over Canda.Till then we have freedom of
> >speech,and even the nazi collaborators can live piecefully in this
> country.
> >I meant the so called war criminals,Mr,Nemenyi.
>
> Since when was freedom of speech annulled in the U.S., Andy? Yours was the
> country that, just a year or two ago, allowed a judge to prevent American
> newspapers and news magazines carrying accounts of a controversial murder
> trial from circulating freely on Canadian soil. That's called "prior
> restraint" here in the States and -- ta da! -- it's unconstitutional. When
> we take over Canada, we will marry your daughters, move into your
> neighborhood and drive down the property values, water down your beer and
> move your remaining hockey franchises to places like Shreveport and Tulsa.
> But you will still enjoy the full constitutional privilege of voicing
> whatever stupid, ill-considered opinion happens to flail its way through
> your speech centers and out of your mouth.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "When you find the one you might become,
> Remember part of me is you..."
>  -- "Simple Song", Lyle LovettThank you Sam;butr dream along with Lyle.And
 your American freedom will
live for ever as long as you have Jesse Helms and Burton as senators.
As for hockey,well we can not match your almighty bucks,but that is not
enough to win a Stanly Cup.As for stupidity,OK.Mr.you are a brain
storm,and now you can fence with Joe.
The case what you mentioned was a trial for several young women,and the
justice system tried to prevent you tabloids to feed on it.
Otherwise I will take a vacation till I can concentrate my mind to please
you and your friend,if you have one.
Sleep well and dont forget to listen to lyle.
A.K.

At 09:47 AM 7/23/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, whose behavioUr is questionable at the
best of times, writes:

>In article >, Joe Szalai writes:

>>And I always believed this kind of behaviour was reserved for American
>>troops only.

>Would you have approved of it if it had been?

Yeah.  Why do you ask?  Do you have a problem with the new democratic
freedoms that Hungarians are enjoying?  Or do you long for the good old days?

Joe Szalai

At 07:22 AM 7/23/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>Joe...
>you must be daft!!! Obviously you are too immature to carry on a
>civilized conversation on what reality is. Perhaps you have been
>sleeping in a dearm world and cannot wake up to reality!

Until you explain *who* the 'undesireable types' are, in Turkish baths in
Budapest, and why you think it's OK to call people by dehumanizing labels
such as 'doles', 'reds', 'pinkos', 'corrupt bastards', 'Germans',
'Rusiians'(sic), I have little interest in carrying on a "civilized
conversation on what reality is" with you.  And when you explain, I just may
not want to.

A while ago, one of the contributors to this list lamented the fact that the
Hungarian language FORUM had become a forum for extreme right wing views.
Apparently, those who were (still are?) on the moderate right did not
distance themselves from those on the extreme right.  (I guess the seductive
power of classical right wing economic theory is mightily potent.  A bit
like Bondage and Discipline, no?)  I don't read the Forum so I don't know
what would have been called 'extreme right' on that newsgroup.  But I'd like
to ask here.  Would the spleenful classification of people by 'type',
economic status, political beliefs, and ethnic origin, be seen as 'extreme'?

Joe Szalai

At 05:45 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Too bad that Lajos Bokros wasn't more diplomatic a man and as a
>result it was so easy to get rid of him. As a very intelligent Hungarian
>from Sweden just said in the Szalon he and Mr. Kupa (another finance
>minister who had to go, that time under the Antall government) were the only
>two who had some guts. All the pants of all the others are usually full:
>afraid to do what is necessary.

Perhaps a no-nonsense, powerful man can make things right.

Joe Szalai

Pacsni is in the bread department.
                                                     Jules Hernadi

At 10:34 AM 7/23/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>Eva Balogh wrote:
>>         When the Russian troops stayed "temporarly" in Hungary for four
>> decades no one could say a word against their presence. And the Hungarians
>> didn't.
>She must know that, she spent the last 4 decades in
>Hungary, or what...? ;-)
>
>I learned the following song in 1980:
>
>Esik eso, azik a baka.
>Orosz testverek, menjetek haza.
>Veget ert a haboru mar regen,
>Semmi szukseg nincsen
>A tankotokra orosz katona.
>
>[It is raining, the soldier gets wet,
>Russian brothers, why don't you go home?
>The war ended a long time ago,
>No need for your tanks
>At all, Russian soldier.]
>
>Peace be with you:             Sz. Zoli


        Yes, and they published this poem and other negative comments in all
the newspapers!!!(;))

        Eva B.

At 11:35 AM 7/23/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>Eva Balogh wrote:
>> >I already know, that you don't like Erzsebet Gidai bacause
>> >she is a former member of the communist party.
>>
>>         Not because she was a communist party member. I should dislike an
>> awful lot of people if that was my criteria. I dislike her because she is
>> stupid, ignorant, and is an enemy of democracy and the free market.
>So she is
>    (1) stupid,
>    (2) ignorant,
>    (3) enemy
>just because she has different views from yours.

        I repeat: because she is ignorant and stupid. George Antony, an
economist, said a few days ago that her paper published on HUNGARY by Peter
Soltesz would receive an F from a college freshman. I am no economist, but I
know enough to know that she is an ignoramus.

>Why don't you send her straight to Siberia?

        That would be too much, but she could shut up.

>Now, you and your
>liberals, dear Eva, beat the hell out of us, Hungarians,
>because of the failures and cowardliness of Kadar.

        This is too "abstract" for my poor mind. "I and my liberals beat the
hell out of you, Hungarians"? The liberals are not Hungarians? And what do I
have to do with the state of economy in Hungary? And when it comes to "the
failures and cowardliness of Kadar," I am completely lost. Surely, you can't
have it both ways: (1) to tell me that I don't know what happened in Hungary
in the last forty years and (2) to make me responsible for what happened
under Kadar.

        Eva B.

At 03:14 AM 7/23/96 -0500, Andras Kornai wrote:
>Pacsni is a somewhat distant relative of kifli: it is roughly the same length,
>but straight (without the kifli's curve) and the cross-section is roughly
>rectangular. It is made of a kind of sweeet dough, with raisins: the closest
>thing in the US is raisin bagel (which of course has completely different
>shape).  To his credit, Orsza1gh has the word, and defines it as "flat roll",
>which is essentially correct, though not very informative. Unfortunately he
>adds the parenthetical remark "with poppyseeds", which is just plain wrong.
>Nem ma1kos, mazsola1s.

        Oops! That was quite a mistake: pacsni versus pacal. Pacal is the
awful thing made out of lungs.

        Eva B.

At 08:07 PM 7/22/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>Peter Soltesz wrote:
>> Zoli...if you think that jailing mr. Bokroswould solve the problem then
>> go ahead!
>I don't think it should solve the problems. Eva
>spoke about personal responsibility. I believe,
>Mr Janos Kornai had a suggestion a couple of years
>ago: let's put personal financial responsibility
>on the leaders of the Hungarian finance politics.
>
>In other words, if the country goes into bankruptcy,
>then the finance minister, maybe the prime minister,
>etc.  should also go into bankruptcy. And these
>politicians should pay cash for their mistakes.
>
>Maybe Mr Kornai was right.

        Of course, I wasn't talking about such "personal responsibility,"
but the kind ordinary citizens of a country take for their own lives and
their well-being.

        I would be very curious to see the exact wording of what Mr. Kornai
had to say about personal responsibility and jailing the finance minister
for bad decisions and their consequences.

        Eva B.

Our economic discussions might confuse the uninitiated in current
Hungarian economic terminology. First, you may have noted with some surprise
that what is normally considered to be a conservative economic strategy in
this country and in the West in general is called "liberal" in Hungary.
Second, it is the right of center parties which advocate a "liberal"
economic policy while the liberal-socialist government is advocating a
conservative economic strategy. Please keep this in mind because otherwise
the whole discussion doesn't make much sense. My "conservative" fiscal
policy is considered to be "liberal" in Hungary and, according to Zoli
Szekely at least, definitely un-Hungarian, nay, maybe even anti-Hungarian.

        But to continue:

At 02:00 PM 7/23/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>Dear All:
>I am not here defending the IMF nor the World Bank. Lord knows that they
>have anc ontinue to do many stupid things. However, lets keep to the
>basic issues. Dr. Bathory has got it wrong!
>
>1- It is Hungary that wants the loan and no-one is forcing them to take it.
>2- It is Hungary that has not met the previously agreed to criterion.
>3- Since when is it fashionable to say that loans should not come with
>any strings (conditions) attached????
>4- I think that the Hungarian gov't administrations ALL OF THEM have
>royally screwed the Hungarian people...they did not need any help from
>the IMF/WB group.

        Yes, the Hungarian people seem to forget that nobody has been
forcing these loans on them. Just the opposite. Lately they have had some
difficulties in getting them. The Kadar regime "bought the people" with
these loans. The living standards were going up and up and there was very
little or no economic growth behind the rising living standards. Some of the
money borrowed was badly invested in dying factories and industries but
still a great deal of this borrowed money ended up bolstering the living
standards under the Kadar regime. But try to mention that fact on any
internet forum: there will be a very vocal group which will deny that these
loans in any shape or form helped them and their families to have a better
life. These loans--they will tell you--helped only the communist bosses.

        As for Peter's fourth point: "the Hungarian gov't administrations,
ALL OF THEM, have royally screwed the Hungarian people." Yes, and no. There
were a couple postings on this subject, comparing the Romanian situation to
the Hungarian one. Yes, said somebody, Romania had no foreign debt but look
what kind of life they had? On the other hand, Hungary had gulyas communism,
etc. etc. Yes, but Romania doesn't have to carry an immense burden of
foreign debt and perhaps in the post-communist era (unless, of course, their
leaders completely screw it up) they might be able to recover faster than
Hungary from the pains of economic transition. Only time will tell.

        Eva B.

> >Eva Balogh wrote:
> >>         When the Russian troops stayed "temporarly" in Hungary for four
> >> decades no one could say a word against their presence. And the Hungarians
> >> didn't.
> >She must know that, she spent the last 4 decades in
> >Hungary, or what...? ;-)
> >
> >I learned the following song in 1980:
> >
> >Esik eso, azik a baka.
> >Orosz testverek, menjetek haza.
> >Veget ert a haboru mar regen,
> >Semmi szukseg nincsen
> >A tankotokra orosz katona.
> >
> >[It is raining, the soldier gets wet,
> >Russian brothers, why don't you go home?
> >The war ended a long time ago,
> >No need for your tanks
> >At all, Russian soldier.]
> >
> >Peace be with you:             Sz. Zoli
>
>
>         Yes, and they published this poem and other negative comments in all
> the newspapers!!!(;))
>
>         Eva B.
>
I am talking about the people, not the communist govt.
The newspapers back then (sic!) used to belong to the
govt. Golly, how could anyone expect Kadar to resist
the Russians, puppet the masters?!
                                             Sz. Zoli

Eva answered to me like that:
> >So she is
> >    (1) stupid,
> >    (2) ignorant,
> >    (3) enemy
> >just because she has different views from yours.
>
>         I repeat: because she is ignorant and stupid.
Talk about tautology... as proof??

> >Now, you and your
> >liberals, dear Eva, beat the hell out of us, Hungarians,
> >because of the failures and cowardliness of Kadar.
>
>         This is too "abstract" for my poor mind. "I and my liberals beat the
> hell out of you, Hungarians"? The liberals are not Hungarians? And what do I
> have to do with the state of economy in Hungary? And when it comes to "the
> failures and cowardliness of Kadar," I am completely lost.
I wrote about the complete failure of 68 in Hungary.
Kadar was too coward to accept the shame of his
failure and that's why he gave way (in the long run)
to the money-borrowing policy in the Political Buro.
Just to save the respect to his Communist Party, and
not for sake of the people.

That's what I called the cowardliness of Kadar.

The liberals now force the total repayment of all
depts of the country. I called it 'beating the hell
out of Hungarians'. Clear now? It would be more
reasonable (and more human!!) to begin negotiations
about parcial cancellation of the depts. That is my
opinion.

                                          Sz. Zoli

On Jul 23,  5:36pm, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> Subject: Re: Pacsni
> At 03:14 AM 7/23/96 -0500, Andras Kornai wrote:
> >Pacsni is a somewhat distant relative of kifli: it is roughly the same
length,
> >but straight (without the kifli's curve) and the cross-section is roughly
> >rectangular. It is made of a kind of sweeet dough, with raisins: the closest
> >thing in the US is raisin bagel (which of course has completely different
> >shape).  To his credit, Orsza1gh has the word, and defines it as "flat
roll",
> >which is essentially correct, though not very informative. Unfortunately he
> >adds the parenthetical remark "with poppyseeds", which is just plain wrong.
> >Nem ma1kos, mazsola1s.
>
>         Oops! That was quite a mistake: pacsni versus pacal. Pacal is the
> awful thing made out of lungs.
>
>         Eva B.
>-- End of excerpt from Eva S. Balogh

Pacal is not lung (tudo); it is tripe, which is part of the stomach of
ruminants used for food.

Bob Hosh

In article >, "Peter A.
Nemenyi" > writes:

>But if you want a new thread on war criminals
>getting rich in North America, I am open for it. Than we can talk about
>Klaus Barbie and Army Counterintelligence Corps (CIC), or Adolf
Eichmann's
>senior aide, Otto von Bolschwing and the CIC. Or you know what? We can
>touch on the leader of Nazi biological warfare research, Dr. Kurt Blome
who
>were hired by the U.S. Army Chemical Corps. We can talk about Allen
Dulles,
>Frank Wisner and the CIA. That is nothing but history. You are for the
free
>speech, are you? :-)  Your miserable points can backfire, so keep
shooting
>them away!
>
>NPA.


Your points aren't any better than his. He lives in Canada, for Christ's
sake! You'd have known that right off the bat if you had bothered to read
his posts. Confronting him with accusations of German Nazis working for
the U.S. military is irrelevant to him. You catch Mengele working in a
Molson brewery, however, and you can make him twist like a worm on a
griddle.
Sam Stowe



"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, "Barna L.
Bihari" > writes:

>Recently, I was inadvertently exposed to some hard evidence in the Peter
>Andras Nemenyi (NPA) case, and I feel compelled to share with you my
>conclusions.  The facts presented to me prove, beyond a reasonable
>doubt, that:
>
>1.  ANL "strongly suggested" that NPA quit.  It was easier for everybody
>    this way.  Otherwise he would have been fired.
>
>2.  ANL was alerted from the outside to NPA's allegedly antisemitic
>    views.  Were it not for such allegations, anl would not have pursued
>    the case.
>
>3.  The "antisemitism" and "propagating pornographic materials" charges
>    were dropped, and changed to "private use of government computers".
>
>4.  In previous newsletters, as well as verbally, employees within anl
>    were encouraged to use Internet, in particular netscape.
>
>5.  NPA is not, by definition cannot be, antisemitic.

If a beginning reporter handed this in to me, I'd throw it back in his/her
face and tell them to either explicitly source it or forget ever seeing it
in print. As far as any of the rest of us can tell, you've pulled these
"facts" out of your rear end. Either provide the source(s) of your
information or shut up.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, "Zoli
Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" > writes:

>Of course
>the real question is how a few hundred thousands of disappointed man
>lining up behind a demagogue would make that a human rights event - and
>somehow elevate the petty reverse racist ideology to something valuable
on
>the one hand, and a justification for looking more leniently to others'
>racism on the other hand ;-<...

Thank God someone around here makes sense.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, Aniko Dunford
> writes:

>I have however noted a tremendous swing towards 'development type'
buildings
>in smaller villages, which the locals call American Style homes.  They
are
>prefabs but utilize forged steel in lieu of wood.  The houses look neat,
but
>the developers tend to flatten the land; subdivide into small lots and
build
>accordingly.  Even at this, special care is given to maintaining the
older
>trees as to give the appearence of an older more estabalished
development.
>These being single family dwellings, the lots are somewhat larger than
>previously utilized. Neat concept; sure beats the developers theory
around
>here, where they bulldoze anything alive prior to building.
>
>Best Regards,
>Aniko
>
>
Aniko:
What about development standards in these subdivisions? Are these homes
required to have municipal water and sanitary sewer or are they allowed to
get by with a well and septic tank? Do the streets have curb and guttering
and sidewalks? Is there any kind of regulation regarding side-, rear- or
front-yard setbacks? Any landscaping requirements? Appearance
requirements? Zoning alone is just half of the equation, at least here in
the U.S. Many municipalities also impose these kinds of urban standards on
new development. I'd love to know whether the Hungarians do or not.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

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On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Bob Hosh wrote:
> Pacal is not lung (tudo); it is tripe, which is part of the stomach of
> ruminants used for food.

 I believe this main ingredient is called 'bendo3' in Hungarian, however I
think pacal may, and usually does, have smaller amounts of other inside
bovine parts as well. A lot of people love it as a specialty dish,
although on this one I side with Eva ;-) considering it an awful meal.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Andras Kornai wrote:
> Pacsni is a somewhat distant relative of kifli: it is roughly the same length
,
> but straight (without the kifli's curve) and the cross-section is roughly
> rectangular.

Well, sort of.  It is made from a pretty soft dough that flattens out
during preparation, so that one side is flat while that other looks like a
relief map.

> It is made of a kind of sweeet dough, with raisins: the closest
> thing in the US is raisin bagel (which of course has completely different
> shape).  To his credit, Orsza1gh has the word, and defines it as "flat roll",
> which is essentially correct, though not very informative. Unfortunately he
> adds the parenthetical remark "with poppyseeds", which is just plain wrong.
> Nem ma1kos, mazsola1s.

I must side with Orszagh on that.  The ones that were avaiable in Budapest
as late as the 1960s were mainly plain, with the odd poppyseed version.
However, I have never seen one with sultanas or raisins.  Mind you, they
disappeared from the shops after the 1960s (rationalization of the product
line, I suppose), and there may be new-fangled ones in circulation now
that are different.

George Antony

Peter Soltesz wrote:
>Nevertheless, there ar many in  Hungary who want the World Bank, etc. to
>erase Hungaries's huge external debt made up by the communists.

Quite.  There is much ignorance about the issue, however.  The debt issue
gets tangled up with ritual IMF/World-Bank bashing, although the two have
little to do with each other.  Much of Hungary's debt is to private banks
in the West, some of it is to Western governments, even less is to the
two illustrious institutions.  The latter did not lend to Hungarian
communists, so all of the IMF/WB loans have been taken up by non-
communist governments (OK, some probably/possibly by the Nemeth government,
but in my books they are not communist).

Gyorgy Bathory wrote:
>I~m pretty sure, that the majority of the hungarians is convinced,
>that the government and the IMF/WB pushed Hungary into a catastrophe.

Yep, and not rarely can one hear the theory that it was deliberate too.
But then, as readers of HUNGARY may have gathered, Hungarians seem to
be more eager customers of conspiracy theories than Westerners.

Zoli Fekete wrote:
>But then, Hungary can pay it back - according to both the borrowers and
>the lenders. The real issue here is the terminally naive belief, implicit
>in the vision of getting rid of the IMF, that she could just decide not to
>pay back and then the debt will go away without any drawbacks for
>declaring bankruptcy. Fortunately, most people are aware of the
>consequences seen when Poland did that, and few would be willing to take
>on the following hardships.

Slight correction.  Poland did not refuse to pay back its loans, and they
did not formally become bankrupt.  They just asked for, and were granted,
the rescheduling of their debt to avoid bankruptcy.  This was made easier
by the fact that most of their debt was to foreign governments (unlike
Hungary's), and these lenders are more magnanimous than commercial lenders.
Nevertheless, Poland's effective bankruptcy has dried up capital inflows
drastically until their credit rating climbed out of the do-not-touch-with-
a-30-foot-bargepole category.

Gabor Farkas wrote:
>2. If it is so hard to pay those loans back, maybe the terms should be
>extended, or some other means should be found to make the burden less
>overwhelming. This should be done with the clear understanding that the
>choice is between less pain for longer time or more pain for a shorter time.

Experience suggests that the longer the transition process is dragged
out, the larger the total amount of pain.  True, shock therapy gives a
perception of larger pain, but this is because of the short time and
sudden change involved.

In fact, dragging out transition is not doing it, as public acceptance
of the pain evaporates and the voters begin to be swayed by the demagogues
crawling out of the woodwork.  When finally bankruptcy comes, there is no
other choice, but then the start is from a tragically lower level.  This
is well observable in Hungary and even more so in the Ukraine (further
deteriorated but finally moving), Bulgaria (as good as bankrupt, standing
alone without hope) and the Belarus (looking to Russia in a desperate
search for a sugar daddy).

Zoli Fekete wrote:
>Which leads me to pointing out the most puzzling aspect of so many
>Hungarian-Americans pushing for the half-baked idea of requesting debt
>forgiveness: they should be the ones knowing best how much, if intangible,
>is the value of one's creditworthiness.

It is the same highly visible and audible group of uglies that support
the extreme right in Hungary.  Their mind is extremely narrow: while
some of them are accomplished professionals in their own fields (e.g.,
the infamous Dr Pellionisz), they fall for conspiracy theories and
alchemist economic solutions that a wiser teenager could see through.
It is also obvious that they have no idea about what makes their proudly
chosen second home, the US, tick, or how capitalism in general works.

They are matched by a much smaller number of leftists who are pontificating
about the ills of capitalism from the convenient location of capitalist
countries (other than the US) and suggest that Hungary should go back to
the socialist basics instead of emulating the West.

George Antony