Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 173
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-12-23
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 LOGOFF HUNGARY (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: biological relationship (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
3 Capitalism's Virtues (mind)  89 sor     (cikkei)
4 Sophisticated Yanks? (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
5 Communists vs. Anarchists (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
6 Hungary FAQ (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Jews, Kun, Trianon (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: childcare (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Something better than capitalism? (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Something better than capitalism? (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: biological relationship (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: family pride (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Capitalism's Virtues (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Language origins (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Sophisticated Yanks? (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Communists vs. Anarchists (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
19 to adriano in taiwan (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Name of GYULA or GYULAI ? (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: childcare (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: childcare (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Communists vs. Anarchists (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: childcare (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: family pride (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: childcare (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
29 Marx-Lenin Weaknesses (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
30 Emil and his remarks (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
31 Typical Hungarian? (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
32 Czechoslovak territorial losses (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
33 Asiatic look in Hungary (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
34 Honfoglalas-occupation (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: biological relationship (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
36 Hungarian newspaper distributors (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Emil and his remarks (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: biological relationship (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Capitalism's Virtues (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: family pride (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Honfoglalas-occupation (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Emil and his remarks (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: Tsunami (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Asiatic look in Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
45 Re: childcare (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
46 Reply to ibokor Re: Trianon (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
47 MET Tozsdei ujsag (mind)  121 sor     (cikkei)
48 MET Tozsdei ujsag (mind)  120 sor     (cikkei)
49 MET Tozsdei ujsag (mind)  120 sor     (cikkei)

+ - LOGOFF HUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


+ - Re: biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s, as usual, gave a succinct and terrific reply to Paul's posting
on people who 'look' like Magyars, etc.

I would add only two points--there are Hungarians in Hungary who refer to
a person, perhaps typically female, who is "magyar arcu1" [having Hungarian
features], but I only heard this in reference to a local actress in Debrecen.
So, pace Paul, the idea of "looking magyar" is not his alone.

That having been said, the idea that how one looks gives one his/her "iden-
tity" is nonsense--identity, at least in the ethnic sense ofthe term, is a
*cultural* construct, not a physical/"racial" one.  As more than one poster
on this list has said, they are pleased/proud/etc. that their parents
"raised them Hungarian."  They did *not* say that they were glad that they
"looked magyar," something that they presumably would also have gotten from
their parents, grandparents, etc.

I suppose it is hopeless to suggest this again, but I will anyway--it is
now unscientific in the extreme to talk about physical features ["race"]
in any discussion of national/cultural identity.  One would have thought
that the Nazi experience would have put "paid" to that notion.  And by the
way, Hitler didn't "look German," either--so what?

Cheers,
Be1la
+ - Capitalism's Virtues (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

From: Glen Camp <gcamp>
To: JELIKO >
Cc: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Something better than capitalism?
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        Despite Marx's and Lenin's fondest dreams, there seems nothing very
"scientific" about their "scientific socialism."  On the other hand, there's
nothing very "scientific" about capitalism either.  Both seem to me to be
secular religions and to argue without reference to reality is to argue
"leider auch Theologie" (unfortunately also theology) as Faust suggests in
the beginning of Part I.
        What should be done, then, as JELLIKO suggests is to look at real
cases, but look at opportunity and social overhead capital costs as well as
all other costs in comparing various economic systems.  "External costs" are
often neglected by apologists of "triumphalist  capitalism" as in the Review
& Outlook section of the WALL ST. JOURNAL.
        My preliminary conclusion after many years' of observaton is that
Capitalism is hard to beat for lowest unit of production, but that it often
overlooks equity in distribution and it frequently overlooks external
costs such as the destruction of the ozone layer, warming of the earth
leading to raising of the ocean's levels (cf. NY TIMES article), etc.
        Finally, US capitalism is rather cruel to workers laid off via
downsizing in preparation for a world market.
        Thus I would hope for "Capitalism with a Human Face" to evolve over
the next century.  If not, I fear we're in for more Zhironovsky
like neo-Fascism in Russia and elsewhere including possibly Italy and the
recrudescence of Nationalist chauvinism under ex-Communist rujlers al la
Milosevic in Serbia.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994, JELIKO wrote:

> Andras Kornai writes in response to Eva Durant:
> > I strongly disagree with the statement that the human condition is getting
> > worse every year -- compare life now to what it was 50, 100, 150 years ago
> > and you see that there has been considerable progress, not only in material
> > wealth but also in literacy, in democracy, even in life expectancy (despite
> > recent setbacks in Hungary and the region). That said, I actually see no
> > compelling argument that there *cannot be* a better solution than
> capitalism
> > -- perhaps there can be. The only argument that I see is not a logical but
> a
> > practical one: several other things have been tried and none of them seem
> to
> > work nearly as well.
> As they say at the end of the prayer AMEN!
>
>
> > > 3. I think you mean the implementation of socialism based on Marxist
> > >    philosophy, this  h a s    n o t    h a p p e n n e d  yet,
> > >    because Marx defined socialism to be based on the  M O S T democratic
> > >    structures in history   -   NOT TRIED!!!!!!  Worth looking into!!!!
> > When I grew up this used to be the primary argument of the "scientific
> > socialism" teachers, namely that the "existing socialism" is but a faint
> > echo of the real thing (communism) which will be soooo wonderful it's
> > really worth putting up with all the hardship of building toward it. It
> > seems quite unclear why this would be worth looking into -- there is
> > nothing in the original writings of Marx or the subsequent Lenin-Stalin-Mao
> > edifice that would lead me to believe that communism is a sustainable
> > system. The major premise "to all according to their needs" is utopian
> > as long as *at least one* resource is scarce. If all resources would be
> > plentiful, now that would be the Garden of Eden, and the whole issue
> > would be moot. The question is what you do while you are not in the
> > Garden of Eden but in this Vale of Tears.
> All the harping I read from Ms Durant makes me glad that she was not a M/L
> instructor when I had to study those "scientific" idiosyncracies" it was bad
> as it was, but now I know it could have been a lot worse.
> I never would have believed that there were true believers. I am reminded of
> Koestler"s story in the Invisible Writing as to when he decided it was high
> time to leave Germany.
>
> Regards,Jeliko.
>
+ - Sophisticated Yanks? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>


        I think you perhaps underestimate our sophistication.  Many of
us are quite well aware of the situation in other countries.  We also
wear shoes and are surprisingly well educated! ;-).
        A "non-lesser" American raised in California.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Communists vs. Anarchists (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 00:49:07 -0500
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >
To: 
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 gwuvm.bitnet (tcp)... 550 Host unknown
554 Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >... 550 Host
 unknown (Authoritative answer from name server)

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 00:49:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Glen Camp <gcamp>
To: Charles >
Cc: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Humane considerations
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        Excuse me, Charles.  Scott Nearing was *not* a Communist, US
or otherwise.  He was a sort of Thoreau-like individualist, perhaps
a bit of an anarchist--but even etymologically anarchists (no structure)
cannot be communists since the latter despise centralized government.
Indeed one could argue that Newt Gingrich is a kind of US anarchist in
this sense of despising centralized government (in Washington).


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Hungary FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi,

I am looking for FAQ's on Hungary, similar to those found on soc.culture.xx
for other countries.

Can someone  help?

Ansie Lotter
Dept. Economics
University of Pretoria
South-Africa
+ - Re: Jews, Kun, Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sandor Lengyel x5786 ) wrote:
: >>do you think that there would be similar objections to settling
: >>100 germans, or austrians or swiss or americans or canadians?

: It is 200. And from my side yes, even more, since they need it less.

: Sandor

i am sure i could find 200 or even 2,000 americans or britons who
are just as needy.

d.a.
+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> excellent post Eva...!
> hungarian, like you'd like to be...
> emil

What Hungarian I'd like to be? I am happy with the one I am...

+ - Re: childcare (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> --But they enjoy the fruits of capitalism so.  At least they could
> live frugally and contribute their savings to the Party.
>

I would differentiate from career-socialists from the few who mean it.
Just because your father was rich, you can still be the second type.
I am a happy socialist, I enjoy the few fruits of civilisation
we can afford, and otherwise living frugally is not really a choice
I'm afraid, but can't help feeling guilty for living still in
relative luxury compared with lots of people. Savings - you must be
joking.
By the way why do socialists get confused with puritans? I can see no
logical connection.

> --  But you must remember, most of us are not unhappy,
> the poverty rate is low by historic standards, riots are few, and crime
> rates are down.
>

Funnily enough this was my father's reaction in the late eighties when
I voiced doubts in the Hungarian system's stability...


>
> --Sure.  It's a biker bar.
>

Why do you think I looked it up?  Unfortunately I picked a quiet time,
but it was still ok.

+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> --Strangely, many of us travel, even us "lesser" ones.  I think
> that a lot of us stay here because it simply is familiar.  Others of
> us stay because we beleive it beats the alternatives, even with the
> rowdiness and difficulty.
>
And as it is Xmas, I won't tell tales about the ones we met on
these travels... Especially as some are still friends...
+ - Re: Something better than capitalism? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> > When I grew up this used to be the primary argument of the "scientific
> > socialism" teachers, namely that the "existing socialism" is but a faint
> > echo of the real thing (communism) which will be soooo wonderful it's
> > really worth putting up with all the hardship of building toward it. It
> > seems quite unclear why this would be worth looking into -- there is
> > nothing in the original writings of Marx or the subsequent Lenin-Stalin-Mao
> > edifice that would lead me to believe that communism is a sustainable
> > system. The major premise "to all according to their needs"

It is not described exactly as this is supposed to be a scientific
analysis and not a utopia. For this stage to be reached resources
should not be scarce. (In my opinion we have this condition fulfilled,
there could be enough food/goods produced on Earth for everybody at
this very moment - I've seen such data) Don't you think the system
sucks if inspite of this people daily dye of hunger/desease?


> All the harping I read from Ms Durant makes me glad that she was not a M/L
> instructor when I had to study those "scientific" idiosyncracies" it was bad
> as it was, but now I know it could have been a lot worse.
> I never would have believed that there were true believers. I am reminded of
> Koestler"s story in the Invisible Writing as to when he decided it was high
> time to leave Germany.
>
I am not a true believer in anything, I am a skeptic. Until this is
your reasonable argument (Jeliko) I have no choice but to stick to
what I think is a reasonable explanation. I have to repeat some
of the points, as they are never answered, such as: why do you
think that a system of common ownership based on DEMOCRATIC control
shouldn't work? (I answered the "human nature" crap already...).


+ - Re: Something better than capitalism? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:
> what I think is a reasonable explanation. I have to repeat some
> of the points, as they are never answered, such as: why do you
> think that a system of common ownership based on DEMOCRATIC control
> shouldn't work? (I answered the "human nature" crap already...).
>
> 
>
The answer is:
because we already know that no odering of preferences is possible that
would be democratic in any reasonable sense (cfr. Arrow's thm and the
endless bibliography on the topic.
why don't people get some information before preaching nonsense?
a.p.PALMA
INSTITUTE OF PHILOSOPHY\CENTER FOR COGNITIVE SCIENCE
NATIONAL CHUNG CHENG UNIVERSITY
160, San-Hsing, Ming-Hsiung,
Chia-Yi 621 TAIWAN, R.O.C.
off.ph#+886 5 242-8181
FAX#   +886 5 272-1203
+ - Re: biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> is gone, and becomes just another influence, the Hungarian identity has been
> somewhat reduced.  What I have in common with some other Hungarian who is
> 1/2 Magyar and 1/2 Slav, is our common Magyar 1/2.  That is what we have in
> common, and that is part of what bind us together.
>
...only if that other person is interested in his/her Hungarian bit or

wants to be identified as a Hungarian, I think. Also people with not
a drop of the elusive Hungarian DNA can claim to be Hungarians, if
they were bought up as such/lived in the company of such or just
have a strange desire to be such...
 (the worst cosmopolitan type Hungarian...,
                                no DNA, lots of cheekbone...)
+ - Re: family pride (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado : 
> Family pride is an illogical concept for you?  And if we prick you,
> would you bleed green?
Square triangles are a logical concept for you? And if we prick you, would
you bleed orange? In brief, yes, family pride is an illogical concept, since
(taking the dictionary definition) pride means "a feeling of honour and
self-respect; a sense of personal worth" and I don't see how those things
can stem from anything but personal accomplishment. Is your worthiness or
honour determined by the family you were born to, even partially, or is it
entirely determined by your own acts?

> That a member of a group feels good that another member has done
> well isn't so strange to me...merely, well, human.
Feel good *for* the other member, yes. Increasing your own sense of personal
worth, honour, and self-respect, I can't see how or why. Of course it's a
different picture altogether when it's a team accomplishment, but I can't
see how Henry Ford 3rd can take even that kind of credit.

> Felado : 
> Is that right - Liszt didn't speak Hungarian?  What is his connection to
> Hungary?  this is interesting.  Are there other such examples?
He had a strong sense of Hungarian identity, but indeed he never learned
the language (did a good job on the Hungarian musical idiom of the time,
though:-). His case is far from atypical -- check out the biographies of
the Arad Thirteen, and go figure what bloodline it took to fight valiantly
for the Hungarian couse.

> >tend to acquire a host of degenerative diseases and disappear from the
> The Japanese seem to be doing well.

Having nearly completely absorbed the Ainu and with tremendous intermixing
with ethnic Koreans, yes. Also, a 100 million people provide a gene pool
large enough, while a few thousand people don't.

> No, I cannot.  Mine are equally Magyar and German.
So who said you can't be a 100% Hungarian, like that fellow Petrovics?

> What I have in common with some other Hungarian who is
> 1/2 Magyar and 1/2 Slav, is our common Magyar 1/2.  That is what we have in
> common, and that is part of what bind us together.
Well, how about some broader European heratiage, largely coming from the
Greeks and Romans? Or how about that old time religion -- that doesn't
seems to be genetically transmitted either.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Capitalism's Virtues (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
>         Despite Marx's and Lenin's fondest dreams, there seems nothing very
> "scientific" about their "scientific socialism."

Could you be specific please? What don't you find scientific in their
analysis? As you are into politics/philosophy, I am really ready
to be shown a logical argument...  
I don't like to be called religious, now that is the most
offensive I've been told (and Jeliko IS offensive) on this list. Not
even a secular one.



> nothing very "scientific" about capitalism either.  Both seem to me to be
> secular religions and to argue without reference to reality is to argue
> "leider auch Theologie" (unfortunately also theology) as Faust suggests in
> the beginning of Part I.
+ - Re: Language origins (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Would you please send me the list of all Finno-Ugric languages?  I'm just
>curious.  Thanks!  :)


The Uralic  Languages consist of three branches: Finnic, Ugric, and
Samoyedic.

Finnic in turn has five subgroups:

A. Baltic-Finnic the members of which are:

Estonian
Finnish
Ingrian
Karelian
Livonian
Veps
Votic

B. Lapp

C. Permic, the members of which are:
Komi
Udmurt

D.Mari

E. Murdvin

The Ugrik has two groups

A. Hungarian
B. Ob-Ugric, the members of which are
Mansi
Khanti

The Samoyedic group has four separate languages:
Enets
Nenets
Nganashan
Selkup

For more details see the article "Uralic Languages" in the _Encyclopaedia
Brittanica_  Macropaedia (15. edition) - where I copied the above from.

Cheers,
Tibor Benke
+ - Re: Sophisticated Yanks? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
>
>         I think you perhaps underestimate our sophistication.  Many of
> us are quite well aware of the situation in other countries.  We also
> wear shoes and are surprisingly well educated! ;-).

I hope you are, you are a professor afterall! Are you sure about
your students? And those who didn't make it to higher education?
I know the average English person has a lot of misconception about
other places... Nearly as bad as Hungarians used to have (albeit
from unofficial sources)  about the West. My friends
were surprised when our first rented place in Engand (1973) did
not have an inside loo.  (they'd written: never mind it is still
"angol vece"
+ - Re: Communists vs. Anarchists (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> cannot be communists since the latter despise centralized government.
> Indeed one could argue that Newt Gingrich is a kind of US anarchist in
> this sense of despising centralized government (in Washington).
>
>
If you are talking about theory - and you must if you are comparing
communism with anarchism - than you are wrong, communism is not at
all for centralised government. Your "existed" communists were
not the ones Marx or even Lenin envisaged. (Lenin's democratic
centralism was to be built from grassroots, controlling the
structure from the bottom with instant recall of officials
and rotation of jobs to stop burocracy to develop).
But you've read all this, and you have better arguments than
"it can't work, stupid"  I hope, as you know, better then me,
the layperson, the reasons why it deformed in Russia at an early
stage... and why the deformed type was copied thereafter...

+ - to adriano in taiwan (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There was no e-mail address in your post.
Would you send a summary of what you are referring to please
and details of a book/article you think is best.



>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:
> > what I think is a reasonable explanation. I have to repeat some
> > of the points, as they are never answered, such as: why do you
> > think that a system of common ownership based on DEMOCRATIC control
> > shouldn't work? (I answered the "human nature" crap already...).
> >
> > 
> >
> The answer is:
> because we already know that no odering of preferences is possible that
> would be democratic in any reasonable sense (cfr. Arrow's thm and the
> endless bibliography on the topic.
> why don't people get some information before preaching nonsense?
> a.p.PALMA
> INSTITUTE OF PHILOSOPHY\CENTER FOR COGNITIVE SCIENCE
> NATIONAL CHUNG CHENG UNIVERSITY
> 160, San-Hsing, Ming-Hsiung,
> Chia-Yi 621 TAIWAN, R.O.C.
> off.ph#+886 5 242-8181
> FAX#   +886 5 272-1203
+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994 14:05:29 -0600 > said:
>
>To Eva Durant and Charles:  neither of you should ever change (opinions or
>otherwise).  The world would be much duller without you.
>>
--Thank you for the kind words, but Eva will, I think, eventually
come into the 20th century.  Probably just in time for the 21st.

>Most of the immigrants coming to America are coming from less developed
>areas which compete with if not surpass America in unpleasantness.
>Immigrants from industrialized nations are usually here for a reason other
>than seeking a better life (ie. marriage, etc.)  Most Europeans I know who
>have been to the US snicker when they here standard US rhetoric about what
>a great place it is.

--Hold hard, here!  While I would not try to defend the John Wayne view
of America as heaven on earth, I won't gratuitously trash the place either.
If you judge America by Washington and New York, I think that you miss
some things.  As for Europeans, we have a fair number here, of all places,
and many have become citizens.
>
>>>> Of the major industrial nations, the U.S. is:
>>>>
>>>>
>Maybe he's trying to change things. :)  Or maybe he likes the salary.  Just
>because he's an optimist/opportunist (take your pick) doesn't mean he's
>wrong.
>
--I think that it was a political statement.

>>In short, this is a carefully selected set of statistics.  While they
>>may be true, they do not present a rounded picture of the country.  If
>>they did, there would be boatloads of people trying to get to Cuba,
>>or Viet Nam.  Or Manchester.
>
>How about boatloads headed toward Paris, Berlin, or Milan?

--That, too.

  Not likely, but
>not because things aren't going wrong in the US.  Might have something to
>do with propaganda teaching generations of US schoolchildren that they in
>the secular version of the Promised Land while denying them real education
>about anything outside the continental US.

--I really can't relate to that statement.  I was never taught that as a
child, and if you will read up on the current literature in professional
education, you will ecounter two interesting trends.  One is the
critical multiculturalist line that trashes America from a Marxist
viewpoint.  Don't know how much leaks through to the students.  The other
is a more positive movement called "Global Education" which argues that
the world is a very small place and that we all should know more about
each other if we are to deal with global issues including population
pressure, war, famine, as well as doing business, sharing information,
and scientific knowledge.  Further, there is an extensive exchange
student program at the high school and college level.  Even here in
a small Southern town, we regularly exchange 20-30 high school students
each year, and the benefits don't just accrue to those who are exchanged.

>Funny how we ended up on immigration again.
>
--Would you defend the proposition that the Hungarians on this list
should have stayed in Hungary if they really knew what was good for
them?  Or are they a bunch of greedy opportunists who have only
come here to rape the land and exploit the inhabitants?  And will
you be leaving soon for a more civilized and enlightened place?

Charles
Kook, First Class
+ - Re: Name of GYULA or GYULAI ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For one explanation of the word Gyula read your Hungarian
proto-history 101. The gyula or 'dula' was a title of a high ranking
official.

Bob Hosh
+ - Re: childcare (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Dec 1994 09:43:19 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>I am a happy socialist, I enjoy the few fruits of civilisation
>we can afford, and otherwise living frugally is not really a choice
>I'm afraid, but can't help feeling guilty for living still in
>relative luxury compared with lots of people. Savings - you must be
>joking.

--Not at all.  Anyone can save.  Take 50 p out of your next pay packet
at the time you get it and put in in an account with a building society.
Then live on the rest.  If you get a rise in pay later, add a small
portion of the rise.  Then you can contribute it to the party when it
has grown through the magic of compound interest some years down the
road.  Defeat the capitalist pigs with their own money, see?

>By the way why do socialists get confused with puritans? I can see no
>logical connection.
>
--Don't both deplore the materialistic aspects of life and argue for
a more elemental, devoted existence?

>> --  But you must remember, most of us are not unhappy,
>> the poverty rate is low by historic standards, riots are few, and crime
>> rates are down.
>>
>Funnily enough this was my father's reaction in the late eighties when
>I voiced doubts in the Hungarian system's stability...
>
--Well, we'll see, won't we?
>>
>> --Sure.  It's a biker bar.
>>
>
>Why do you think I looked it up?  Unfortunately I picked a quiet time,
>but it was still ok.

--I've never seen it quiet.  Are you sure that you didn't stumble into
the bar parlor upstairs where the yuppies meet?

Charles,
Kook, First Class
+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Dec 1994 09:47:51 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>And as it is Xmas, I won't tell tales about the ones we met on
>these travels... Especially as some are still friends...

--Then they weren't all Ugly Americans.  I ran into a man in the
men's room at Edinburgh Castle.  All he could do was bitch about
Scotland.  Couldn't get a decent American meal, he said.  I asked
him why in the hell he had bothered to come, then.  He didn't
answer.  I expect it was because he was about 5' 6" and I am
over 6 feet and weigh about 200 pounds and he was reluctant to debate.
I'm sorry.  I would have like to have heard his answer.
+ - Re: childcare (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >
> --Don't both deplore the materialistic aspects of life and argue for
> a more elemental, devoted existence?
>

I haven't seen any such passage in Marx's... you are confused
again with French utopian socialists...
E.D.
+ - Re: Communists vs. Anarchists (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Dec 1994 11:38:36 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>If you are talking about theory - and you must if you are comparing
>communism with anarchism - than you are wrong, communism is not at
>all for centralised government. Your "existed" communists were
>not the ones Marx or even Lenin envisaged.

--Quite accurate, I think.  The problem seems to be that it has
been impossible to translate this idyllic vision into practical
reality.  In theory, if you had people who had no self-interest
you could have a communist society.  The naivete in communism is
that it assumes that people will voluntarily give up all self-
interest for the greater good.

--To give equal time, the "free market" is an equally naive idea
that can't be translated into practice because it assumes that
all actors have equal power, act from motives of equal strength,
and act with perfect economic rationality.

--Pure communism hasn't been tried.  Average Sister Eva is correct.
But neither has a pure free market ever been tried.  The British
came close in the late 19th century, but not that close, because
they used the army and the navy to exploit colonies who clearly
were not treated as equal partners.  Both ideas are the dreams
of professors and haven't much to do with a messy, irregular
reality in which people operate with mixed motives, not all of
which are pure and few of which are rational.

>But you've read all this, and you have better arguments than
>"it can't work, stupid"  I hope, as you know, better then me,
>the layperson, the reasons why it deformed in Russia at an early
>stage... and why the deformed type was copied thereafter...

--And why the deformed type of either the free market or pure
communism will remain the dream of professors?

Charles,
Kook, First Class
+ - Re: childcare (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Dec 1994 13:28:13 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>
>I haven't seen any such passage in Marx's... you are confused
>again with French utopian socialists...

--Oh, God.  I suppose I'll have to dig out the relevant literature
again.  There goes Sunday afternoon.

Charles
+ - Re: family pride (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s Kornai writes:

> > Family pride is an illogical concept for you?  And if we prick you,
> > would you bleed green?
> Square triangles are a logical concept for you?

The difference between square triangles and family pride is that one
finds examples of the latter and not of the former.  (And green blood is
a Star Trek reference, BTW; maybe orange is too?)

> And if we prick you, would
> you bleed orange? In brief, yes, family pride is an illogical concept, since
> (taking the dictionary definition) pride means "a feeling of honour and
> self-respect; a sense of personal worth" and I don't see how those things
> can stem from anything but personal accomplishment.

My dictionary says "a reasonable or justifiable feeling of one's
position".  Is it reasonable or justifiable to consider membership in
an accomplished family a "position"?  I suppose opinions vary.

> Is your worthiness or
> honour determined by the family you were born to, even partially,

In the world as we might wish it?  Perhaps not.  In the world as
we find it, yes it is, especially one's honor: "a good name or public
esteem".

> or is it
> entirely determined by your own acts?

Same answer, _mutatis mutandis_.

>
> > That a member of a group feels good that another member has done
> > well isn't so strange to me...merely, well, human.
> Feel good *for* the other member, yes. Increasing your own sense of personal
> worth, honour, and self-respect, I can't see how or why.

Nevertheless, it happens.

--Greg
+ - Re: childcare (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles writes in response to Eva Durant: (most deleted)

>.  And be warned,
> if I get to Britain next summer, I'm going to try to find you.  My
> wife and I would certainly want to take you our for a slap-up
> capitalist dinner.  Manchester is not far from our home base in
> Nottingham.

Beware Charles, I think she lives in the forest nearby. :-)

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Marx-Lenin Weaknesses (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

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Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown

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   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 16:08:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Glen Camp <gcamp>
To: Eva Durant >
Cc: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Capitalism's Virtues
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        By "scientific" I mean that the theory has (1) explanatory power
and (2) it also has predictive power.  Thus astronomy is a "science" and
can predict the arrival of Haley's Comet to the second.  It can "explain"
why the comet appears (by calculating the parabola, etc.), and it can
predict when it will appear very accurately.
        Now Marx wanted to emulate Newton's "law" of gravitation and
other "laws" which were regnant in the middle and late 19th century
when he wrote "Das Kapital" and other major works.
        He developed a complex theory which predicted that capitalism
must fall and that the workers would take over from the capitalists in
the most developed capitalist country (i.e., Germany or perhaps France).
        Lenin refined the Marx's theory in his Imperialism: the highest
Stage of Capitalism (1916).
        The trouble is that capitalism is still very much alive while
socialism (or communism) has largely been discredited in much of East
Europe and the ex-USSR, while it's moribund in China, Cuba, North Korea
etc.
        In short, Marx's theory did *not* happen, it's *predictive*
power as a theory was not entirely correct.  *Parts* of Marx's theory,
especially the "boom and bust" business cycle of capitalist societies,
however, *was* accurate so we can't say he was not a social science
genius--because he was!
        But we *can* say that Marxism-Leninism is not "scientific" *in
the sense that Marx and Lenin believed it to be!*  And since Marx's
theories were tied together into one "scientific socialism" package, if
any part of the package failed, then one can only conclude that his
theory was *not* scientific!
        I've just reduced an entire library on Marxism-Leninism to a
few paragraphs and I apologize if I did either man an injustice intel-
lectually---but that's how I see their theory: brilliant, useful still,
but as a "scientific law"--no.
        As to whether one can be called religious when they're not in
the conventional sense, let's leave that for another day?  I meant no
offense, dear Eva, so forgive me if I did not make myself clear.  We
can discuss the German idea of "Jensseits" vs. "Diesseits" theologies
another time.
        Back to grading exams-ugh-I'd much rather discuss Hungarian
politics. ;-).
        Affectionately, Glen

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> >
> >         Despite Marx's and Lenin's fondest dreams, there seems nothing very
> > "scientific" about their "scientific socialism."
>
> Could you be specific please? What don't you find scientific in their
> analysis? As you are into politics/philosophy, I am really ready
> to be shown a logical argument...  
> I don't like to be called religious, now that is the most
> offensive I've been told (and Jeliko IS offensive) on this list. Not
> even a secular one.
>
>
>
> > nothing very "scientific" about capitalism either.  Both seem to me to be
> > secular religions and to argue without reference to reality is to argue
> > "leider auch Theologie" (unfortunately also theology) as Faust suggests in
> > the beginning of Part I.
>
+ - Emil and his remarks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tsunami

Emil writes, quoting first me:

>: I do know that the best defense is offense and therefore I am not
surprised
>: that Mr. Pellionisz resorts to it. However, I don't think that it will
>work.
>
>rite on Ms Eva! why not take this talk to alt.angst or alt.bitterness...
same
>for you Mr. Pee... let's get real here! Horty wha?
>later
>emil

And later, quoting again me and then Paul:

>paul ) wrote:
>: >Let me repeat it, I was sarcastic. If I said this in earnest I might not
>be
>: >an antisemite, but I would repeat a generalization based on stereotypes,
>
>: Woops - I didn't get it.  Sorry about that Eva.
>
>: Paul
>
>wha? take it to alt.conspiracy guys! Eva'n'Paul get it rite pleeze!
>later
>emil


I am not sure whether "Emil" thinks that he is funny or not but I can assure
him that I don't find him funny.

Eva Balogh
+ - Typical Hungarian? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Lovei wrote:

>There is no biological grounds to declare anybody as having a '
>typical Hungarian' appearance.


Quite. In fact I myself should have expressed myself more accurately when I
said that my mother looked like a typical Hungarian. It would have been
better said: she looked like what is considered to be a typical Hungarian.

Eva Balogh
+ - Czechoslovak territorial losses (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Imi Bokor quotes a book published in 1984 about the Carpatho-Ukraine:

>as carpatho-ukranians
>vainly tried to defend their shortlived independence against invading
>hungarians."

I shouldn't take this too seriously. There were three possibilities; (1)
Germany occupies the territory. That was an eventuality the Western Powers wer
e not too keen on. (2). The Carpatho-Ukraine becomes so-called "independent"
and sets up a German client state. Again something the Western Powers didn't
want. (3). Hungary occupies the territory and thus at least Germany doesn't
lay its hands on it. The Western Powers liked this solution best and Hungary
occupied the territory with their blessing.

Eva Balogh
+ - Asiatic look in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul writes:
>
>I was at a conference last year with young Hungarians,
>meeting
>in Chicago, and there was a guy there who I would have sworn was Oriental
>Asian;
>almond eyes like Chinese, or Japanese, and I thought he was a guest.  When
he
>began speaking Hungarian, I almost fell over!  Later I found out he was from
>a small village in Hungary.  I also have learned that there are such
villages
>which have not had much contact with the rest of the population, and whose
>people still 'look' Asian.

Most likely he came from the Great Plains and was a Cuman (ku1n). I had a
very good friend at ELTE (he is quite well known today in literary circles)
who looked rather Asiatic. His family came from the Kiskunsag somewhere. He
was obviously of Cuman origin. They were isolated pockets like this,
especially in small villages until about the late nineteenth century at the
time when mobility was practically nonexistent.

Eva Balogh
+ - Honfoglalas-occupation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Imi Bokor asks:

>why is turkish or german or russian conquest "occupation"
>but "magyar" conquest "honfglalas"?


I think these two things are entirely different. Hungary didn't become
Turkish just because it was under Turkish occupation. The same is true about
the Russian occupation in our own time. The Magyar conquest of the Pannonian
basin resulted in a total transformation of the ethnic and linquistic
composition of the area. And one more thing, the territory the Hungarians
occupied in the ninth century had to be sparsely populated because if it had
not been, the Hungarian language would not have survived. As a result of this
conquest an entirely new country was born as opposed to invading armies which
sooner or later left.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva D. wrote:

>> 1/2 Magyar and 1/2 Slav, is our common Magyar 1/2.  That is what we have in
>> common, and that is part of what bind us together.

>wants to be identified as a Hungarian, I think. Also people with not
>a drop of the elusive Hungarian DNA can claim to be Hungarians, if
>they were bought up as such/lived in the company of such or just


I guess we have fundamentally different perspectives on this.  I see your point
,
and agree that it is a reasonable position to take - I just think mine it
 better.

I don't think we`ll come to an agreement on this.

Paul
+ - Hungarian newspaper distributors (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am looking for Hungarian news and magazine distributors within the US.
I live in Washington, and I'd love to read some hungarian magazines
beside the online info available.

Does anyone know where can I find such distributor?

Thanx!
RObert
+ - Re: Emil and his remarks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:

> I am not sure whether "Emil" thinks that he is funny or not
> but I can assure
> him that I don't find him funny.

With respect, remonstrating only encourages them.

--Greg
+ - Re: biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Be1la, I take offense to this comparison:
>One would have thought
>that the Nazi experience would have put "paid" to that notion.  And by the

Racists are not the only people who take pride in their family heritage.  I hav
e
again and again made it clear that I am NOT saying garbage about some people
being better than others because of their ethnicity or race.  To the contrary,
I believe that all ethnic group are equal in ability, and have said many times
that my position is baed on maintaining a multicultural and multiethnic planet,
in an age when large numbers of people can and do move around with great ease.
Please do not make such outrageous implications again.

>That having been said, the idea that how one looks gives one his/her "iden-
>tity" is nonsense--identity, at least in the ethnic sense ofthe term, is a
>*cultural* construct, not a physical/"racial" one.  As more than one poster

Are you saying people do not notice race or ethnicity?  I cannot tell you how
many times Italian friends of mine have chosen a girlfriend because she
'looked' Italian, and those girls always turned out to 'be' Italian.  The same
goes with Hispanics I have known, so please do not state as if it were a fact
that it is 'nonsense' that you can sometimes tell the ethnicity of a person
by the way they look - happens all the time, and it doesn't make sense to
deny it.  If you feel it should not be an issue, fine.  But it is an issue
and one many people feel is important to them.

Paul
+ - Re: Capitalism's Virtues (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thomas Breed wrote:
>        My preliminary conclusion after many years' of observaton is that
>Capitalism is hard to beat for lowest unit of production, but that it often
>overlooks equity in distribution and it frequently overlooks external
>costs such as the destruction of the ozone layer, warming of the earth
>leading to raising of the ocean's levels (cf. NY TIMES article), etc.

I would like to point out that those advocating "Western-style" capitalism
do not only mean a capitalist mode of production but also a parliamentary
democracy closely associated with it.

The latter is, so far, the best attempt to include most members of
society in social decision making.  Not a perfect one, just the best
of all systems so far that have been tried at a national level and proved
sustainable.

As such, it has been capable of trimming the excesses of uncontrolled
capitalism in such distributional aspects as workers' rights, social
welfare and enviromental protection to a much better extent than any other
modern social system.  It has processes for 'internalizing' the undesirable
externalities of capitalism, and these are used by various groups in
society every day.

George Antony
+ - Re: family pride (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s Kornai wrote:

>> That a member of a group feels good that another member has done
>> well isn't so strange to me...merely, well, human.
>Feel good *for* the other member, yes. Increasing your own sense of personal
>worth, honour, and self-respect, I can't see how or why. Of course it's a
>different picture altogether when it's a team accomplishment, but I can't
>see how Henry Ford 3rd can take even that kind of credit.

Ok.  Are people who go to World Cup Soccer games ridiculous for cheering on
the team from their home country, just because they are from the same country?
Those guys in the stand sure are not making goals, and have no person
stake in the outcome?

>> >tend to acquire a host of degenerative diseases and disappear from the
>> The Japanese seem to be doing well.
>Having nearly completely absorbed the Ainu and with tremendous intermixing
>with ethnic Koreans, yes. Also, a 100 million people provide a gene pool

Ok, then.  The Japanese-Koreans are doing well.  Both have traditionally been
closed societies.
There are 100 million people now, but there was a time when the gene pool was
only a few thousand.  Besides, who said anything about a few thousand.  There
are millions of Russians, Poles, Indians, Turks, Kurds, etc.

>> 1/2 Magyar and 1/2 Slav, is our common Magyar 1/2.  That is what we have in
>> common, and that is part of what bind us together.
>Well, how about some broader European heratiage, largely coming from the
>Greeks and Romans? Or how about that old time religion -- that doesn't


You can point to "European heritage" since you still draw a pretty clear
boundry defining it.  In 100 years people will be making the same arguemnts
you are against my point, when someone tries to defend "European heritage" in
an age when, for example, large numbers of Europeans have migrated to Asia
or Africa, and visa-versa.  Do you think the world will be a more interesting
place when everyone from London to Bombay to Beijing is of the same
ethnic mix?


Saying there is not apparent difference between the ethnic make up of a country
of tall, blond, Swedes, and short, dark haired Turks is dishonest.  Just last
night (honest, this is true) I was taking to a Turkish student studying in
the US, who told me about a semester in high school he spent in Finland.  He
told me about an experience he had at a Finnsih bath, where you sit in a steam
room, then go outside and jump in a cold lake.  He said when he left the steam
room to go to the lake, there were hundreds of nude, tall, Fins standing on
the shore, and when he started towards the water, they all at once stopped
and looked at him since he was the only on there less than 180cm with dark
hair.  He said he didn't enounter any discrimination, but that they looked
at him since he was so obviously not Finnish.  Not a matter of better or
worse - just different, and that is the point.  There are differences, and they
are good!

Paul
+ - Re: Honfoglalas-occupation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>the Russian occupation in our own time. The Magyar conquest of the Pannonian
>basin resulted in a total transformation of the ethnic and linquistic
>composition of the area. And one more thing, the territory the Hungarians

What do you mean by 'ethnic composition of the area'?  That the culture was
lost, or is it more than that?

Paul
+ - Re: Emil and his remarks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>wha? take it to alt.conspiracy guys! Eva'n'Paul get it rite pleeze!
>>later
>>emil

>I am not sure whether "Emil" thinks that he is funny or not but I can assure
>him that I don't find him funny.
>Eva Balogh

Yeah, I didn't get what he meant, so I just ignored it.  It didn't seem to be
anything offensive, but still, what was the point?

Paul
+ - Re: Tsunami (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc Nasdor wrote:

>The world of the
>1990s and beyond is moving towards more open borders, not closing them down,
>particularly in Europe. In the long term, it's a fait accompli. The only way

You're right in that the trend is to open borders for all movement, but I
would like to open trade, with some restriction on the movement of people.

Paul
+ - Re: Asiatic look in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva B.

>>in Chicago, and there was a guy there who I would have sworn was Oriental
>>Asian;
 >Most likely he came from the Great Plains and was a Cuman (ku1n). I had a

 >who looked rather Asiatic. His family came from the Kiskunsag somewhere. He
>was obviously of Cuman origin. They were isolated pockets like this,

Based on what has been written to now, how can you say he is 'obviously of
Cuman origin'.  Just because of the way he looks?  My point is not to say
'gotcha', but to point out that what you stated was a clear case, and that
there are less obvious, but still reliable distinctions.  Not 100% reliable
since we are a mixed people, but still reliable.

Paul
+ - Re: childcare (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Dec 1994 10:35:31 PST JELIKO said:
>
>Beware Charles, I think she lives in the forest nearby. :-)
>
--Among the oak trees with eleven other women and one man?  For
shame, Jeliko!

Charles
+ - Reply to ibokor Re: Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To my statement

>>To understand the magnitude of the tragedy that Trianon represents we have
to
>>remember that Hungary, whose borders had been practically unchanged (except
>>for temporary occupation) for a thousand years,

ibokor responded

>i think you are mistaken on that point. when was the first hungarian border
>drawn up? how long was there a turkish occupation? for how long wasthere a
>separate kingdom of transylvania. from the time of the turkish occupation
>until after world war i there was no sovereign separate hungary. that
>alone takes care of a large chunk of the thousand years, and perhaps
>pertinently, it takes care of all but seventy odd years of the last three or
>four centuries.

>i wonder if you are seriously proposing the redrawing of boundaries
>upon the "traditional lines" of four centuries ago. or do you only
>wish to do that in the special case of hungary?

Maybe ibokor didn't read my text carefully enough.  It said "(except for
temporary occupation)".  That should cover the Tartar, Turkish, Austrian,
German, Soviet occupations.  None of those, nor the temporary loss of
sovereignty, affected Hungary's actual borders.

I am at a loss reading ibokor's second quoted paragraphs.  Who is being
quoted proposing border changes along *"traditional lines"*?  What are the
quoted "traditional lines?  Does ibokor confuse me with someone else or are
his anti-Hungarian biases getting the better of him to the point where he
sees things that are just not there?

Ferenc Novak
+ - MET Tozsdei ujsag (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
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<Inter-Europa>       12.750 |  5      11.350 | x
<KontraxI>            0.210 | x        0.150 | x
<KontraxT>            0.100 | x        0.075 | x
<Konzum>              0.769 | x        0.773 | x
<Martfu>sor           3.700 | x        3.500 | 13
<Muszi>               0.100 | x        0.100 | x
<Nitroil>            16.000 | 15
<Novotrade>           2.650 | 16       2.650 | 16
<Panflax>             0.460 |  7       0.396 |  6
<PanPlast>            1.216 | 14       1.260 | 14
<Pharmavit>           7.150 | 21       7.000 | 21
<Pick>                7.150 | 14       6.560 | 13
<Primagaz>            2.840 | 18       2.565 | 16
<Richter>                UJ bevezetes  1.160 | 11  =20
<Skala-Coop>T         2.017 | x       =20
<Skala-Coop>S         2.650 | x        2.050 | 11
<Soproni>sor          4.050 |  9       3.360 |  8
<Styl>                2.500 | 14      =20
<Sztrada>bem                | x        3.500 | x=20
<Terraholding>              |
<Zalakeramia>         2.348 | 18       2.200 | 17
<Zwack>               4.990 | 19       4.795 | 18
Karpotlasijegy        0.400            0.410

II. Analizis

 November honapban a reszvenypiac likviditasa az arfolyamok csokkenese
mellett novekedett. A honap vegere az arfolyamok stabilizalodtak a BET
indexe 5 % -al alacsonyabban zart, mint Oktoberben.  A BET -re bevezetett
felesegek 10 % -AT  a reszvenyek adtak november honappban, azonban a teljes
forgalomnak 18 % -aban a reszesedtek.
  A brokercegek jelentese (az AEFT reszere) alpjan a tozsdei es a tozsden
kivuli forgalombol az eltelt tiz honapban 23 % -kal reszesedet a BET.

A tozsdei reszvenytarsasagok atlagos P/E erteke az uj bevezeteseknek
koszonhetoen  21,90 -re (+0,07) emelkedet. Amely jelzi a kibocsajtok=20
tulfutott bevezetesi torekveseit.

A karpotlasi jegyek kamattal novelt erteke december honapra 171,5 %
.tozsde arfolyamara vetitve 24 % -nak felel meg.
 A kormany kidolgozta ugyan a Privatizacios strategiajat 1994 -98 evre
amelyben a villamosenergia iparbol 10 -12 % -ot kivan jutatnia a
karpotoltaknak (60-80 milliard Ft.), valamint az AUV hataskorebe tartozo
ket befektetesi tarsasag papirjait kivanja felkinalni ( ez tovabbi. bef
alapokkal az igenyek szerint bovulhet)
. valamint a nyilvanos palyazatok donto tobbsegenel 10-50 % -os aranyban
karpotlasi jegyeket elfogad;..  az elelmiszer privatizacional a foldert
kapott  jegyeket elsobbsegben kivanjak reszesiteni.

 A kormany kidolgozta a T/288 torveny javaslatat " Az allam tulajdonaban
levo vallakozoi vagyon ertekesiteserol " ennek vitaja meg nem kezdodott meg=
=20
a kesobbiekben e TV. javaslatra meg visszterunk. ( Erdeklodo olvasoinknak
figyelmebe ajanlom az ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ olvasoi rovatot)

A legngyobb forgalmat az EGIS erte el 902.424.914 Ft (duplikalt
forgalommal) 1.274 kotesben.

EGIS Gyogyszergyar Rt.

Budapest, 1106
Kereszturi ut 30-38.
<Tel: 183-49-54>     Fax.:183-45-54

dr. Orban Istvan
vez=82rigazgto

jegyzet  papir
Tev=82kenys=82g:    Gyogyszeripar
A to=93zsdei bevezt=82  ees =82ve:  1994
Alpto=93ke:                      7785,71         mFt
A tarsasag to=94rzser=82szv=82nyeinekasz=A0ma:           db =20
                         -ne=82ev=82rt=82ke:   1,000  eFt=20

Adozott eredm=82ny           mFt  oszt.:   %   eredem=82nye/r=82szv=82ny
            1993    1240   mFt       5,5 %     155 Ft


!!!!Kellemes Karacsonyi unnepeket es BUEK!!!

ORCZAN Zsolt

| Rovataink Megrendelese, lemondasa: /sub; sign off by     |
|Tozsde: MET-TOZS; Online Orszghaz: MET-OHAZ; Online Parliament: MET-PARL |
| Publisher /Kiado: ORCZAN, Zsolt  e-mail.:            |
| Chief editor /Foszerkeszto: ORCZAN, Csaba  e-mail.:  |
|                FREE SERVICE,        DIJMENTES KIADVANY                  |
|but all contributions are welcome. / de koszonettel fogadjuk a tamogatast|
***  MET   BUDAPEST PoBox. 311.  HUNGARY,  H-1536   ***  ***
+ - MET Tozsdei ujsag (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
HUNGARIAN ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE     copyright  1990.=20

I. HAVI zaro arak 1000 Ft-ban   (MONTHLY  close price  1000Ft)
____________________________________________________________________
RESZVENYEK         |  10. honap     |  11. month    |  12. honap    |
                   |  Close |       |  Close |      |  Close |      |
 STOCK             |  price | P/E   |  price | P/E  |  price | P/E  |
-------------------|----------------|---------------|---------------|
<Agrimpex>bem        20.000 |  4      16.000 |  3
<Agrimpex>nev        =20
<Aranypok>            7.000 | 11       7.085 | 10      =20
<Balaton>             7.500 | x        7.500 | x
<Bonbon>              2.000 |  7       1.800 | x
<Csemege>            19.490 | 11      18.000 | x=20
<Csopak>bem           0.610 | 14       0.600 | 14
<Csopak>nev       =20
<Danubius>            1.170 | 19       1.040 | 17
<Domus>               1.110 |  6       0.945 |  5
<Dunaholding>bem     35.000 | 11      40.000 | 13
<Dunaholding>nev  =20
<Egis>                2.550 | 17       2.300 | 15
<Fotex>               0.390 | 17       0.364 | 16
<Fonix>                     | 17
<Garagent>            2.300 | 18       2.005 | 16
<Global>              1.300 | 35       1.375 | 37
<Globus>              2.340 | 17       2.150 | 15
<Goldsun>             1.030 | 23       0.975 | 22
<Graboplast>          1.425 | 22       1.215 | 19
<Hungagent>bem              | x        1.200 | x
<Hungagent>nev              |
<Ibusz>               1.300 | x        1.200 | x
<Inter-Europa>       12.750 |  5      11.350 | x
<KontraxI>            0.210 | x        0.150 | x
<KontraxT>            0.100 | x        0.075 | x
<Konzum>              0.769 | x        0.773 | x
<Martfu>sor           3.700 | x        3.500 | 13
<Muszi>               0.100 | x        0.100 | x
<Nitroil>            16.000 | 15
<Novotrade>           2.650 | 16       2.650 | 16
<Panflax>             0.460 |  7       0.396 |  6
<PanPlast>            1.216 | 14       1.260 | 14
<Pharmavit>           7.150 | 21       7.000 | 21
<Pick>                7.150 | 14       6.560 | 13
<Primagaz>            2.840 | 18       2.565 | 16
<Richter>                UJ bevezetes  1.160 | 11  =20
<Skala-Coop>T         2.017 | x       =20
<Skala-Coop>S         2.650 | x        2.050 | 11
<Soproni>sor          4.050 |  9       3.360 |  8
<Styl>                2.500 | 14      =20
<Sztrada>bem                | x        3.500 | x=20
<Terraholding>              |
<Zalakeramia>         2.348 | 18       2.200 | 17
<Zwack>               4.990 | 19       4.795 | 18
Karpotlasijegy        0.400            0.410

II. Analizis

 November honapban a reszvenypiac likviditasa az arfolyamok csokkenese
mellett novekedett. A honap vegere az arfolyamok stabilizalodtak a BET
indexe 5 % -al alacsonyabban zart, mint Oktoberben.  A BET -re bevezetett
felesegek 10 % -AT  a reszvenyek adtak november honappban, azonban a teljes
forgalomnak 18 % -aban a reszesedtek.
  A brokercegek jelentese (az AEFT reszere) alpjan a tozsdei es a tozsden
kivuli forgalombol az eltelt tiz honapban 23 % -kal reszesedet a BET.

A tozsdei reszvenytarsasagok atlagos P/E erteke az uj bevezeteseknek
koszonhetoen  21,90 -re (+0,07) emelkedet. Amely jelzi a kibocsajtok=20
tulfutott bevezetesi torekveseit.

A karpotlasi jegyek kamattal novelt erteke december honapra 171,5 %
.tozsde arfolyamara vetitve 24 % -nak felel meg.
 A kormany kidolgozta ugyan a Privatizacios strategiajat 1994 -98 evre
amelyben a villamosenergia iparbol 10 -12 % -ot kivan jutatnia a
karpotoltaknak (60-80 milliard Ft.), valamint az AUV hataskorebe tartozo
ket befektetesi tarsasag papirjait kivanja felkinalni ( ez tovabbi. bef
alapokkal az igenyek szerint bovulhet)
. valamint a nyilvanos palyazatok donto tobbsegenel 10-50 % -os aranyban
karpotlasi jegyeket elfogad;..  az elelmiszer privatizacional a foldert
kapott  jegyeket elsobbsegben kivanjak reszesiteni.

 A kormany kidolgozta a T/288 torveny javaslatat " Az allam tulajdonaban
levo vallakozoi vagyon ertekesiteserol " ennek vitaja meg nem kezdodott meg=
=20
a kesobbiekben e TV. javaslatra meg visszterunk. ( Erdeklodo olvasoinknak
figyelmebe ajanlom az ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ olvasoi rovatot)

A legngyobb forgalmat az EGIS erte el 902.424.914 Ft (duplikalt
forgalommal) 1.274 kotesben.

EGIS Gyogyszergyar Rt.

Budapest, 1106
Kereszturi ut 30-38.
<Tel: 183-49-54>     Fax.:183-45-54

dr. Orban Istvan
vez=82rigazgao

jegyzet papir
Tev=82kenys=82g:  Gyogyszeripa
 A to=93zsdei bevzetes eve: 1994=20
Alapto=93ke:  7785,71 mFt
                         -ne=82ev=82ert=82ke:   1,000  eFt=20

Adozott eredme=82ny           mFt  oszt.:   %   eredemyye/r=82eeszv=82ny
            1993    1240   mFt       5,5 %     155 Ft


!!!!Kellemes Karacsonyi unnepeket es BUEK!!!

ORCZAN Zsolt

| Rovataink Megrendelese, lemondasa: /sub; sign off by     |
|Tozsde: MET-TOZS; Online Orszghaz: MET-OHAZ; Online Parliament: MET-PARL |
| Publisher /Kiado: ORCZAN, Zsolt  e-mail.:            |
| Chief editor /Foszerkeszto: ORCZAN, Csaba  e-mail.:  |
|                FREE SERVICE,        DIJMENTES KIADVANY                  |
|but all contributions are welcome. / de koszonettel fogadjuk a tamogatast|
***  MET   BUDAPEST PoBox. 311.  HUNGARY,  H-1536   ***  ***
+ - MET Tozsdei ujsag (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
HUNGARIAN ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE     copyright  1990.=20

I. HAVI zaro arak 1000 Ft-ban   (MONTHLY  close price  1000Ft)
____________________________________________________________________
RESZVENYEK         |  10. honap     |  11. month    |  12. honap    |
                   |  Close |       |  Close |      |  Close |      |
 STOCK             |  price | P/E   |  price | P/E  |  price | P/E  |
-------------------|----------------|---------------|---------------|
<Agrimpex>bem        20.000 |  4      16.000 |  3
<Agrimpex>nev        =20
<Aranypok>            7.000 | 11       7.085 | 10      =20
<Balaton>             7.500 | x        7.500 | x
<Bonbon>              2.000 |  7       1.800 | x
<Csemege>            19.490 | 11      18.000 | x=20
<Csopak>bem           0.610 | 14       0.600 | 14
<Csopak>nev       =20
<Danubius>            1.170 | 19       1.040 | 17
<Domus>               1.110 |  6       0.945 |  5
<Dunaholding>bem     35.000 | 11      40.000 | 13
<Dunaholding>nev  =20
<Egis>                2.550 | 17       2.300 | 15
<Fotex>               0.390 | 17       0.364 | 16
<Fonix>                     | 17
<Garagent>            2.300 | 18       2.005 | 16
<Global>              1.300 | 35       1.375 | 37
<Globus>              2.340 | 17       2.150 | 15
<Goldsun>             1.030 | 23       0.975 | 22
<Graboplast>          1.425 | 22       1.215 | 19
<Hungagent>bem              | x        1.200 | x
<Hungagent>nev              |
<Ibusz>               1.300 | x        1.200 | x
<Inter-Europa>       12.750 |  5      11.350 | x
<KontraxI>            0.210 | x        0.150 | x
<KontraxT>            0.100 | x        0.075 | x
<Konzum>              0.769 | x        0.773 | x
<Martfu>sor           3.700 | x        3.500 | 13
<Muszi>               0.100 | x        0.100 | x
<Nitroil>            16.000 | 15
<Novotrade>           2.650 | 16       2.650 | 16
<Panflax>             0.460 |  7       0.396 |  6
<PanPlast>            1.216 | 14       1.260 | 14
<Pharmavit>           7.150 | 21       7.000 | 21
<Pick>                7.150 | 14       6.560 | 13
<Primagaz>            2.840 | 18       2.565 | 16
<Richter>                UJ bevezetes  1.160 | 11  =20
<Skala-Coop>T         2.017 | x       =20
<Skala-Coop>S         2.650 | x        2.050 | 11
<Soproni>sor          4.050 |  9       3.360 |  8
<Styl>                2.500 | 14      =20
<Sztrada>bem                | x        3.500 | x=20
<Terraholding>              |
<Zalakeramia>         2.348 | 18       2.200 | 17
<Zwack>               4.990 | 19       4.795 | 18
Karpotlasijegy        0.400            0.410

II. Analizis

 November honapban a reszvenypiac likviditasa az arfolyamok csokkenese
mellett novekedett. A honap vegere az arfolyamok stabilizalodtak a BET
indexe 5 % -al alacsonyabban zart, mint Oktoberben.  A BET -re bevezetett
felesegek 10 % -AT  a reszvenyek adtak november honappban, azonban a teljes
forgalomnak 18 % -aban a reszesedtek.
  A brokercegek jelentese (az AEFT reszere) alpjan a tozsdei es a tozsden
kivuli forgalombol az eltelt tiz honapban 23 % -kal reszesedet a BET.

A tozsdei reszvenytarsasagok atlagos P/E erteke az uj bevezeteseknek
koszonhetoen  21,90 -re (+0,07) emelkedet. Amely jelzi a kibocsajtok=20
tulfutott bevezetesi torekveseit.

A karpotlasi jegyek kamattal novelt erteke december honapra 171,5 %
.tozsde arfolyamara vetitve 24 % -nak felel meg.
 A kormany kidolgozta ugyan a Privatizacios strategiajat 1994 -98 evre
amelyben a villamosenergia iparbol 10 -12 % -ot kivan jutatnia a
karpotoltaknak (60-80 milliard Ft.), valamint az AUV hataskorebe tartozo
ket befektetesi tarsasag papirjait kivanja felkinalni ( ez tovabbi. bef
alapokkal az igenyek szerint bovulhet)
. valamint a nyilvanos palyazatok donto tobbsegenel 10-50 % -os aranyban
karpotlasi jegyeket elfogad;..  az elelmiszer privatizacional a foldert
kapott  jegyeket elsobbsegben kivanjak reszesiteni.

 A kormany kidolgozta a T/288 torveny javaslatat " Az allam tulajdonaban
levo vallakozoi vagyon ertekesiteserol " ennek vitaja meg nem kezdodott meg=
=20
a kesobbiekben e TV. javaslatra meg visszterunk. ( Erdeklodo olvasoinknak
figyelmebe ajanlom az ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ olvasoi rovatot)

A legngyobb forgalmat az EGIS erte el 902.424.914 Ft (duplikalt
forgalommal) 1.274 kotesben.

EGIS Gyogyszergyar Rt.

Budapest, 1106
Kereszturi ut 30-38.
<Tel: 183-49-54>     Fax.:183-45-54

dr. Orban Istvan
vez=82rigazgao

jegyzet papir
Tev=82kenys=82g:  Gyogyszeripa
 A to=93zsdei bevzetes eve: 1994=20
Alapto=93ke:  7785,71 mFt
                         -ne=82ev=82ert=82ke:   1,000  eFt=20

Adozott eredme=82ny           mFt  oszt.:   %   eredemyye/r=82eeszv=82ny
            1993    1240   mFt       5,5 %     155 Ft


!!!!Kellemes Karacsonyi unnepeket es BUEK!!!

ORCZAN Zsolt

| Rovataink Megrendelese, lemondasa: /sub; sign off by     |
|Tozsde: MET-TOZS; Online Orszghaz: MET-OHAZ; Online Parliament: MET-PARL |
| Publisher /Kiado: ORCZAN, Zsolt  e-mail.:            |
| Chief editor /Foszerkeszto: ORCZAN, Csaba  e-mail.:  |
|                FREE SERVICE,        DIJMENTES KIADVANY                  |
|but all contributions are welcome. / de koszonettel fogadjuk a tamogatast|
***  MET   BUDAPEST PoBox. 311.  HUNGARY,  H-1536   ***  ***

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