NPA wrote:
> But why was it so important for the Manifesto to be completed by the first
> of February? Because the "spontaneous revolutions" that had already been
> planned all over Europe could "spontaneously" erupt on schedule. In fact
> these "spontaneously planned" revolutions started on March 1, 1848 in
> Baden followed by others in Vienna on March 12, Parma, March 13, Pest
> March 15, Venice, March 22, etc.

Do I understand this right ?  Do you mean to say that the Hungarian
revolution of 1848 was planned by the international communist league
and Kossuth, Petofi and the others were mere running dogs for the
international conspiracy ?

> Sixty-four revolutions "spontaneously erupted" all over Russia during the yea
r
> as well.
>
> So the Manifesto of the Communist Party was issued in London, England on Feb-
> ruary 1 1848 as an explanation of the cause of the revolutions already
 planned.
> Fortunately for the people of Europe, nearly all of these revolutions failed.

This is not an often heard view from a Hungarian vis-a-vis the March [1848]
Revolution.  Do you care to elaborate ?

George Antony

By now this thread has begun to weave variegated patterns
that are passing strange. Johanne L. Tournier's kifli story
proves that one person's kifli may well be another person's
cookie. Actually, "real" kifli is a crescent-shaped hard roll
reminiscent of a proper bagel (crusty on the outside and
chewy on the inside). Kiflis were first baked by Hungarians
during the Turkish occupation, undoubtedly to annoy the
unwelcome "guests." From Hungary they eventually migrated to
France to become the famous "croissant" (a crescent-shaped
puff pastry) which is as far from the original kifli as the
proverbial Mako is from Jerusalem. Yet Johanne's kifli
story is not at all unreasonable. "Mandulas kifli" (also
obviously called a kifli) is indeed a cookie, a kind of
"almond crescent . . . " Lang has a wonderful recipe for
this in his book which improves in flavor if, in addition
to almonds, you also add some almond extract.

Of course, by now accusations of sacrilege have also begun
to show their ugly heads. Here, I must side with Joe Szalai
as against our friend, Zoli Fekete. Porkolt is a paprikas
without sour cream. And, paraxical as this may sound, paprikas
is a porkolt without sour cream. Think about it. Would I
kid you? Also, Zoli, "nudli" is just another name for "teszta,"
for which our elegant name is "metelt."

The other person accused of sacrilege (though not in so many
words) is unfortunately yours truly. One Amos J. Danube claims
that if I cook without lard I can only said to be cooking "imitation"
Hungarian food. So be it. Doctors orders are doctors orders.
This way, I may still indulge, at least occasionally, in such
wonders as "teli szalami" and "Gyulai kolbasz . . . " Also,
I am afraid that here in North America we are condemned to
cook "imitation" Hungarian food. Why, even paprika, our
archetypal spice, which is dated in Hungary, is supposed to
keep forever here. Which may be why even the best cooked
paprikas and/or porkolt may be a bit "gritty" at times . . .

Finally, Norma Rudinsky speaks of galuska made with potatoes.
Yes, there's is such a thing, a popular Slovak dish called
"sztrapacska," a kind of galuska made with grated portatoes.

If I were a medieval author of a bestiary, I would end this
thread now with a proper allegorical ovservation. Thus, foods
and the names of foods appear to cross borders at will and
without the benefit of passports. They usually undergo nominal
as well as substantive changes without doing harm to anyone.
Would that we were all so friendly with one another! That would
indeed be passing strange.

Steven C. Scheer

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:55:53 -0700, S or G Farkas
> wrote:

>At 04:19 PM 7/14/96 -0300, Johanne wrote:
>
>>I don't suppose you could forward the recipe for *fasirt* or *fasirozott* or

--- snip --------

>My fasirt recipe (from memory-amounts as desired by taste):
>
>Mix ground meat (pork, usually) with white bread (previously soaked in
>water), whole egg, chopped onions, paprike, salt and pepper (some add other
>spices). Make patties and fry them in lard (or oil) until dark brown. You
>can also make a big piece out of it and bake it in the oven. In this case
>many people put a  whole hard egg (or several) in the middle, that's the
>surprise (when you find it).

Typical Hungarian receipe. :-) Whenever I asked my mother for a
receipe, she would say: "Egy kicsit ebbol, es egy kicsit abbol...." (a
litlle of this and a little of that). While always wonderful, they
never tasted the same twice in a row. Mine, of course, are always
inedible.

:-)

Bandi

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
 < OR >  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

At 22:42 15/07/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

<snipped Eva's B.'s stuff>

>My answer to your question is this.  Similar revolutions *did* break out in
>most European countries.  Of course, our difficulty here is what you and I
>mean by 'similar' and 'revolution'.  Most European countries did not have a
>violent overthrow of their government.  However, most European countries
>developed social programmes that were equal to, or better than, what the
>Soviets accomplished.  The development of "The Welfare State" was Europe's
>revolution.

Joe, did I miss something here? You are saying, if I read you rightly, that
there were successful proletarian revolutions all over Western Europe,
because all of Western Europe developed extensive social programs. However,
it is sloppy intellectual thinking to think that that is the same phenomenon
as the Soviet revolution. For one thing, the main impetus for the
development of the western social welfare scheme, if I remember, was the
unrest and disillusionment with capitalism which was caused by the Great
Depression on the one hand, combined with fear that the Soviets would export
their revolution, on the other. The Communists had a lot of appeal among the
intellectuals during the 30's, largely because of the Depression, and it
seems to me that it was even shown afterwards that there were Communists in
Franklin Delano Roosevelt's administration. And the Establishment
governments of the time perhaps felt both a genuine concern for their people
and also wished to protect and preserve the privileges of the elite.

But, you can't say that this is the equivalent of the Soviet revolution. If
I remember my Hegel, I would say that capitalism in the early 20th. century
represented the *thesis.* International Communism in the 20's and 30's
represented the *antithesis.* The social programs developed by the Western
democracies represented the *synthesis.*

To say this was a revolution, however, would mean that you would have to say
the development of capitalism was a *revolution,* the Enlightenment was a
*revolution,* the development of representative government was a
*revolution.* When it is used so loosely it becomes almost meaningless. Of
course there is the *Industrial Revolution* - but that may be simply a
failure in creative terminology! :-))

  Is it just a coincidence that the attack on the social
>programmes in the West happened just as the Soviet system was collapsing?

Actually, the only coincidence may be that it was an unacceptable level of
indebtedness that caused problems in both systems . . .  Can you think of
another correlation?

>An important part of the "aftermath" of the Bolshevik revolution was the
>repression, dictatorship, and secrecy in the Soviet Union.  Unfortunately,
>from my perspective, this is the only stuff that most people care to
>remember.  But repression, dictatorship and secrecy are not revolutionary
>concepts and certainly I don't think anyone would want the violent overthrow
>of a government just so they could establish a violent government.

As I remember, the key thing about the Czarist government was not just that
it was totalitarian, but that it was an *inefficient* and *ineffective*
totalitarian government. For example, as I remember, the government of one
of the later Czars actually funded a leader of one of the revolutionary
groups. He was supposed to be a mole - yet he was one of the most successful
revolutionaries of his time! (It wasn't any of the Bolsheviks, as I
remember, this was from a slightly earlier era.) The noteworthy aspect of
the Bolsheviks was that they were able to implement a more ruthless and
effective  totalitarian regime, from the point of view of eliminating
totally any groups or individuals who might be in opposition to their
regime. Nicholas II's great flaw was that he was well-intentioned but weak.
If he had been a Peter the Great-type of personality, the Russians would
have respected him even if they had feared him, and the revolution either
wouldn't have happened, or it would have been channeled into a peaceful
parliamentary democracy, if he had felt inclined to foster such an
institution. The changes, in other words, would have occurred from the top down
.

<snipped more stuff>

>By the way, the word I used was 'blather' not 'blabber'.  But I'm flexible!
>
>Joe Szalai

Tisztelettel,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 


>
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Steven C. Scheer wrote:
> Also, Zoli, "nudli" is just another name for "teszta,"
> for which our elegant name is "metelt."

 I must rise to defend to good name of "nudli"! It is a specific
cigar-shaped species, unlike the ribbon-like "metelt" - neither of which
is equivalent to the all-encompassing generic "teszta".

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Hi, Steven and Everybody!

At 03:32 16/07/96 GMT, Steven C. Scheer wrote:

>By now this thread has begun to weave variegated patterns
>that are passing strange. Johanne L. Tournier's kifli story
>proves that one person's kifli may well be another person's
>cookie.

I have really enjoyed your recipes and your discussion about the subtleties
of kiflis and nokedlis. Now, I have another question. I have read about a
Hungarian braided bread called, I think *kala'cs.* I know there is a special
braided Jewish bread called a *challah.* It seems to me that the names bear
a striking similarity, but I always assumed that the challah braid was a
Russian Jewish tradition. Can anybody make the connection (or disabuse me of
the notion) between these two?


 Porkolt is a paprikas
>without sour cream. And, paraxical as this may sound, paprikas
>is a porkolt without sour cream. Think about it. Would I
>kid you?

Well, you might not be kidding me, but you certainly lost me!! Both my
paprikas and porkolt recipes call for sour cream, so please explain this
amazing phenomenon!

 Also, Zoli, "nudli" is just another name for "teszta,"
>for which our elegant name is "metelt."
>
>The other person accused of sacrilege (though not in so many
>words) is unfortunately yours truly. One Amos J. Danube claims
>that if I cook without lard I can only said to be cooking "imitation"
>Hungarian food. So be it. Doctors orders are doctors orders.

Maybe if you drink more Egri Bikaver, it will clean up your arteries (:-))).
It is much more fun than eating olive oil (no, not that Olive!) all the time.

<snip>

>Finally, Norma Rudinsky speaks of galuska made with potatoes.
>Yes, there's is such a thing, a popular Slovak dish called
>"sztrapacska," a kind of galuska made with grated portatoes.

Is this by chance the same thing as the *burgonyagomboc* in *The Art of
Hungarian Cooking*?
>
>If I were a medieval author of a bestiary, I would end this
>thread now with a proper allegorical ovservation. Thus, foods
>and the names of foods appear to cross borders at will and
>without the benefit of passports. They usually undergo nominal
>as well as substantive changes without doing harm to anyone.
>Would that we were all so friendly with one another! That would
>indeed be passing strange.

You're not only a cook, you'r a philosopher! Perhaps this should be turned
into a book of  the deeper meanings to be found in food - something like
*Like Water for Chocolate,* because certainly it seems that one can learn a
lot of the richness of the heritages of Central and Eastern Europe by
studying the food and cooking!

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
>
>Steven C. Scheer
>
>

At 03:32 AM 7/16/96 GMT, Steven C. Scheer wrote:

>Of course, by now accusations of sacrilege have also begun
>to show their ugly heads. Here, I must side with Joe Szalai
>as against our friend, Zoli Fekete. Porkolt is a paprikas
>without sour cream. And, paraxical as this may sound, paprikas
>is a porkolt without sour cream. Think about it. Would I
>kid you? Also, Zoli, "nudli" is just another name for "teszta,"
>for which our elegant name is "metelt."

Thanks for siding with me Steven but I'm afraid I'm going to have to side
with Zoli Fekete on "nudli".  Zoli and I may be using the wrong word here,
but he mentioned that "nudli" had potatoes added to the flour.  In a more
recent post Zoli Fekete wrote:

>I must rise to defend to good name of "nudli"! It is a specific
>cigar-shaped species, unlike the ribbon-like "metelt" - neither of which
>is equivalent to the all-encompassing generic "teszta".

Cigar-shaped species?  That's a very good clue.  Whenever my mother made
"gombo'c" stuffed with plums (not often enough!) she would leave some of the
flour and potatoe mixture aside and make "nudli".  They were cigar-shaped
and they were put into the boiling water just like nokedli.  Then they were
quickly removed and placed into a large frying pan in which bread crumbs
were fried in lard.  Alternatives to bread crumbs were poppy seeds and
sugar, or a mixture of bread crumbs and sugar.  The kids always went for the
plum gombo'c first, and, if there was still room in our stomachs we'd eat
some poppy seed or bread crumbs and sugar "nudli".  My parents usually ate
the "nudli" with bread crumbs without sugar.  They just added a bit of salt.
It was only later in life that I realized that it too was edible.

Is "nudli" the right word for the above food?

Joe Szalai

George Antony Wrote:

>Do I understand this right ?  Do you mean to say that the Hungarian
>revolution of 1848 was planned by the international communist league
>and Kossuth, Petofi and the others were mere running dogs for the
>international conspiracy ?

>This is not an often heard view from a Hungarian vis-a-vis the March
>[1848] Revolution.  Do you care to elaborate ?


For them it was an ideal opportunity to turn the tide into their  own
use, and break away from the grip of the Habsburgs. The revolution in
Hungary even if it was not orchestrated by  foreign  organization, it
was influenced by uprising in Vienna.

NPA.

Dear all:

The correct is sajnos nincs kave!

For those who like a quick explanation. The Hungarian language has
word endings which determinie the action to be taken with the root word.
For example -t (kavet) makes it possesive) meaning like give me coffee
Kerek egy kavet (I would like coffee please).

Other exmaples are:  rugd ide a labda-t (kick the ball here -- where the root
word for ball is labda).

Similarly - asztal (table) asztal-t (the table), asztal-ra (onto the table),
asztal-rol (from the table), asztal-on (on the table), etc.

In effect by saying nincs kavet is similar to saying we do not have the a
coffee (or the coffee) it certainly is incorrect.

Peter Soltesz

Geee.....I thought that NUDLI means head !!! Ha ha ha..

By the way metelt teszta means finely cut up, as in soup noodles.
Peter Soltesz

Perhaps we have hit the nail on the head.

Just like Andrew Dosza's grandmother..my mother (along with many others)
used an art of cooking known as TASTING. This came about because the
ingredients varied widely. In fact, the biggest problem with cooking
(Hungarian) is that most recepies, includeing the "famed" George Lang
have serious measurement errors an cannot be reproduced by following them.

The other real problem is that of substitution of ingredients.
Well this is like that, asn so on BUT it is NOT! so it cannot taste the same
as the original!!!!.

One cannot cook well UNLESS one tastes the food during cooking and
corrects the tastes while it is being cooked.  My wife had a heck of a
time trying to learn Hungarian dishes from my mother, until she learned
to taste and measure with the fingers as a picnh of this and that while you
kept tasting the food for that ultimate dish flavor.

After al, one of the main reasons (besides being hungry) that we eat is
to enjoy and TASTE the food!!!

Peter Soltesz

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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> Cigar-shaped species?  That's a very good clue.  Whenever my mother made
> "gombo'c" stuffed with plums (not often enough!) she would leave some of the
> flour and potatoe mixture aside and make "nudli".  They were cigar-shaped
> and they were put into the boiling water just like nokedli.  Then they were
> quickly removed and placed into a large frying pan in which bread crumbs
> were fried in lard.  Alternatives to bread crumbs were poppy seeds and
> sugar, or a mixture of bread crumbs and sugar.  The kids always went for the
> plum gombo'c first, and, if there was still room in our stomachs we'd eat
> some poppy seed or bread crumbs and sugar "nudli".  My parents usually ate
> the "nudli" with bread crumbs without sugar.  They just added a bit of salt.
> It was only later in life that I realized that it too was edible.
>
> Is "nudli" the right word for the above food?

 Right, AFAIK it's the same dough as szilvasgomboc (and its close
relative bara1tfu2le) is made of; however I could usually prevent my
mother from making the bread-crumby stuff the same day we had the
poppy-seed delights, so as to save me from vacillating between the two
tempting variations ;-)...
 But it's CRITICAL to have the torpedo shape rather then gomboc (the
latter which is fine for prezlis gomboc) in order to have the right
surface-to-volume ratio for proper makos nudli!!!

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Nemenyi (NPA) wrote:
>
>George Antony Wrote:
>
>>Do I understand this right ?  Do you mean to say that the Hungarian
>>revolution of 1848 was planned by the international communist league
>>and Kossuth, Petofi and the others were mere running dogs for the
>>international conspiracy ?
>
>>This is not an often heard view from a Hungarian vis-a-vis the March
>>[1848] Revolution.  Do you care to elaborate ?
>
>
>For them it was an ideal opportunity to turn the tide into their  own
>use, and break away from the grip of the Habsburgs. The revolution in
>Hungary even if it was not orchestrated by  foreign  organization, it
>was influenced by uprising in Vienna.

    For whom it was an ideal opportunity? For the Hungarians or for the
Communists? And the last sentence: does it mean that although the
Hungarian events were not orchestrated by the communists, they were
influenced by the Viennese events and the Viennese events were
influenced by the communists? So, in brief, indirectly the Hungarian
revolution was influenced by the communists?

    Eva Balogh

>

In article >,
Lacko/Kohn > wrote:
>
> My instinct says:
>
>Sajnos, nincsen kavet.
>
>If you want to say: I'm sorry, I don't have coffee.
>
>Margarita



That is incorrect. If you want to say: "Sorry, I don't have coffee" than the
following versions are correct and used:
Sajnos nincs ka've'm. (the ' stands for an accent on top of the preceding
vowel)
Sajnos ka've'm nincs. (This stresses that I have other stuff but no coffee)

If you want to say: "I am sorry, I don't have coffee" than replace "Sajnos"
with "Sajna'lom,"   For "I am very sorry" replace "Sajnos" with "Nagyon
sajna'lom"

If you want to say: "Sorry (I'm sorry, I'm very sorry), there is no coffe"
than the end of the sentence is "nincs ka've'" and if want to express that you
have other stuff but no coffee than "ka've' nincs".

Did I leave out any other combinations? (Probably yes, but that's it for now.)
GK

It is a blessing in disguise that Peter A Nemenyi lost his job.At least now
we can read his eloquent writing either in Hugary or Forum.
Now he has all the time to educate us poor pots.
Andy.

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Steven Scheer's musings on the permutations of food and food names have
encouraged me to raise a question here that I discussed once with a friend
in private.  Perhaps I even dared to ask in this forum once before, but I
don't recall, and can't remember receiving enlightenment if I did.  So:

One of my favorite Czech dishes is what we call "segedinsky gulas" (thus,
obviously, identified in the Czech mind--if anyone still knows geography--
with Szeged).  It's made with pork, not beef, has sour cabbage in it, and
has a sour-cream paprika sauce.  Does this resemble any "real" Hungarian
dish in any way, and if so, is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Zoli, I stand corrected, I goofed on "nudli" big time.
I forgot that wondrous potato-dough that's also used for
"szilvas gomboc." Of course, I don't know about cigars, but
yes, that's the shape of these goodies rolled between one's
palms, but they are much, much smaller. And, like gomboc,
they are rolled in bread crumbs gently toasted in butter.
Szilva season is coming. I usually make szilvas gomboc
about once a year. The number ofAmerican friends who want to
partake of the repast is growing by leaps and bounds. Why, they
like this stuff so much, they even pronounce it right . . .

Yes, Johanne, I, too, have always thought that "challah"
and "kalacs" were related, both the words and the food.
I don't have an etymological dictionary, but, my God,
the words look alike, don't they? And they do refer to
the same sort of bread made with eggs and braided . . .

About my paradoxical remark, porkolt is paprikas without
sour cream and paprikas is porkolt without sour cream . . .
well, I goofed a bit there, too . . . that statement
isn't true. What I had meant to say was: porkolt is
paprikas without sour cream, paprikas is porkolt with
sour cream. This way, of course, the statement is not
all that paradoxical . . . a bummer . . .

Johanne, thanks also for your kind words about my
"philosophy." Goodness, I am blushing. And I apologize
for all my typos . . . More later, I am sure.

Steven C. Scheer

Eva Balogh wrote:

>For whom it was an ideal opportunity? For the Hungarians or for the
>Communists?

Communists? What communists? :-) You mean those young revolutionaries
who were touched by the ideas of  the French Revolution, echoed  back
from the past? Maybe, but 1848 for the Hungarians were a freedom fight!

And the last sentence: does it mean that although the
Hungarian events were not orchestrated by the communists, they were
influenced by the Viennese events and the Viennese events were
influenced by the communists? So, in brief, indirectly the Hungarian
revolution was influenced by the communists?

The last assumption seems logical, and just as enlighten as a "kifli"
and other food names. :-)

Andy also voiced his opinion:

>It is a blessing in disguise that Peter A Nemenyi lost his job.At least
>now we can read his eloquent writing either in Hugary or Forum.
>Now he has all the time to educate us poor pots.

If Andy does like my eloquent writing in Hugary, so be it! :-)
Does Andy want a thread, why the job was lost? :-)

NPA.

On Jul 16,  2:47pm, Hugh Agnew wrote:
> One of my favorite Czech dishes is what we call "segedinsky gulas" (thus,
> obviously, identified in the Czech mind--if anyone still knows geography--
> with Szeged).  It's made with pork, not beef, has sour cabbage in it, and
> has a sour-cream paprika sauce.  Does this resemble any "real" Hungarian
> dish in any way, and if so, is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Hugh Agnew
> 

This is interesting, a good friend of mine recently visited Germany where she
had "Szegedin Goulasch" and wanted to know how to make it. It too, was
described as made with pork.  What Hugh and my friend described sounds
suspeciously like "Szekely gulyas", a dish with an interesting history. Or is
it a dish that is only made outside of Hungary? I've never encounter the name
"Szegedi gulyas".  Can anyone shed more light on this subject?

Bob Hosh

>Typical Hungarian receipe. :-) Whenever I asked my mother for a
>receipe, she would say: "Egy kicsit ebbol, es egy kicsit abbol...." (a
>litlle of this and a little of that). While always wonderful, they
>never tasted the same twice in a row. Mine, of course, are always
>inedible.
>
>:-)
>
>Bandi
>
>=============================================================
>      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
 < OR >  
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
>=============================================================

Yes, yes, but in this case measurements *are* problematic.
You need a little experience, but then measuring is more
of a problem that it's worth. To tell you how much meat
to grind for four patties would drive me nuts. I would
actually have to go obtain the right amount of meat and then weigh
it. All kidding aside, here's my recipe for four patties
(and they almost always turn out more or less the same):

I grind one half of a thick butterfly cut, first cut into
one-inch pieces, in my Cuisinart. You may use meat already
ground, pork or veal, but then use about what would make
for a couple of hamburgers or so . . .

Saute a medium sized onions in fat of choice and let cool.
Soak one slice of European style bread, broken into one-
inch pieces in milk or water.

Add onions to ground meat, squeeze bread pieces and crumble
them unto meat/onion mixture.

Add one egg.

Add salt and pepper to taste. Also some paprika. Also,
and this is essential for the right aroma, a few pinches
of marjoram. Also, at least one clove of minced garlic.

Mix well. Form patties by hand (they will be kind of soft
and fairly difficult to handle), roll them gently in
bread crumbs and fry them in a little oil on medium heat
until nice and brown on each side . . .

(But don't you DARE measure anything . . . just kidding)

Steven C. Scheer

At 12:24 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>> Cigar-shaped species?

.......
>> Is "nudli" the right word for the above food?
>
> Right, AFAIK it's the same dough as szilvasgomboc (and its close
>relative bara1tfu2le)

        Zoli, you should have translated the word "baratfule," because it is
so colorful: monk's ear. Great stuff, all of it.

        By the way, the nudli's elegant name is "burgonyamete'lt." Why
"mete'lt" only God knows because "mete'lni" means "to cut" and you certainly
don't cut the "nudli." Well, you do, kind of. Once you make a long, narrow
roundish dough, you cut them into not too long "nudlik." The recipe for
"burgonyamete'lt" can be found in *The Art of Hungarian Cooking: Two Hundred
and Twenty-two Favorite Recipes* by Paul Pogany Bennett and Velma R. Clark
(Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Company, 1954) under *Potato Noddles."  If
anyone is interested in the recipe, I will be glad to copy it for all.

        All that talk about "gomboc," and "baratfule," and "nudli" makes me
hungry. Plus bring back wonderful memories of my teenage days when I could
easily eat 10-12 of those "gombocok" for lunch! And I didn't have an extra
gramm of fat on! Those were the days.

        Eva Balogh

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:13:36 GMT Liviu Iordache
> wrote:

> from my mother's cookbook :-), I know that  "stuffed cabbage" are  not
>"galuste"  but what Romanians called "sarmale." "Galuste" are made out
>of egg and farina.

You are probably right, but do not forget I quoted my sources in advance.
Maybe the linguists who wrote those important dictionaries were
unable to cook an egg. But they are not very likely to be wrong. If
they said that in the Csango dialect -- at the time the collected
these words -- the word meant "stuffed cabbage", then we should grant
them a minimum of credibility.

Is it presumable that the Hungarian cuisine influenced the Romanian
culinary habits during the last decades instead ?

Salutari cordiale.



~~~
Paolo Agostini >

Dear Hugh and others:
It seems to me that you might be referring to the Szekely Gulyas which
has the same ingredients. BTW Szekely Gulyas was NOT named after a place
but rather Mr. Szekely who put all kinds of mixture of the following
items...because he was late and the restaurant/cafe ran out of all of the
stuff...he was starving, went into the kitchen and then mixed all the
stuff together and ate it with bread! AKA Szekely Gulkyas was born...
Perhaps the Czechs confused his name with Szeged (???).

Greetings, Peter Soltesz.

At 04:16 PM 7/16/96 GMT, Steve Scheer wrote:

>Yes, Johanne, I, too, have always thought that "challah"
>and "kalacs" were related, both the words and the food.
>I don't have an etymological dictionary, but, my God,
>the words look alike, don't they? And they do refer to
>the same sort of bread made with eggs and braided . . .

        Possible, because "kala'cs" seems to be everywhere. The Hungarian
came from one of the Slavic language (the etymological dictionary is not 100
percent which one) but "eastern middle German" also has a word "kollatsch."
In German it is "golatschen", in Romanian "cola'c," and in Albanian
"kula'c." All meaning about the same thing.


        Eva Balogh

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:02:20 PDT Gabor Fencsik >
wrote:

>If "hunya" indeed means "clothing made out of rough fabric", as in the
>hairshirts worn by ascetics and penitents, then it is an excellent
>example of a Slavic 'h' turning into a Hungarian 'g' -- something that
>according to Paolo should never happen.  The Hungarian derivative is
>"gunya", meaning the exact same thing as the Slovak word, cf. "talan
>epp ebben rejlik a darocgunyasok nagy igazsaga".

You forgot to mention Hamupipoke (Cinderella) and her story:
*...u othun legyen a hamuba, darocgunyaba..." (popular tale collected at
Ketesd, Uj  Magyar TajSzotar 1:953). The word guna ~ gunya exists in
many Hungarian dialects (see the afore mentioned dictionary at the entry
 "gunya",
2:705-706 from which I quote a few examples: "a legenynek hazasulas a
szandeka s vagy beleegyeznek vagy valami kifogast tesznek, hogy a
leanynak meg nincs gunyaja"; "a csacsin mindig rajta vot a gunya"; "a
juhaszok allasozohelyet gunyanak neveztek, mert ott tartottak a
szurt, subat ...";  (mint szolas:) "csend abba a rossz gunyaba!")

Compare the Hungarian word with Bulgarian gunya, Serbo-Croatian gunj,
Slovenian gunj ~ gunja, Russian gunja. The word exists in many other
Slavic languages with the meaning of "garment, clothing, rug" etc.
The only language where it appears as hunya -- i.e. with a trailing
/h/ -- is Slovak.

This makes things much easier: whenever you find a H-unya in Hungarian,
than you may be sure it's a Slovak loanword. But if you find the
word as G-unya please, believe me: it's not Slovak.

Udvozlettel
~~~
Paolo Agostini >

At 02:47 PM 7/16/96 EDT, Hugh Agnewwrote:

>One of my favorite Czech dishes is what we call "segedinsky gulas" (thus,
>obviously, identified in the Czech mind--if anyone still knows geography--
>with Szeged).  It's made with pork, not beef, has sour cabbage in it, and
>has a sour-cream paprika sauce.  Does this resemble any "real" Hungarian
>dish in any way, and if so, is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?

        It sounds like "sze'kelygulya's" to me. Pork, onions, saurkraut,
sour cream. Excellent stuff. Sze'kelygulya's, by the way, means
"Transylvanian cabbage," or "Szekler's cabbage," but, according to George
Lang, it has nothing to do with Transylvania or the Szeklers. Moreover, it
is not really a "gulyas," but rather "po:rko:lt" with saurkraut and sour
cream. George Lang seems to know that the origin of the "sze'kelygulya's was
as follows: in 1846 a librarian of Pest County named Sze'kely arrived at the
restaurant "Zene'lo" o'ra [Music Box] too late. The owner of the restaurant
had a little po:rko:lt left, a little sourkraut. He mixed the two--hence
sze'kelygulya's.

        Eva Balogh

At 02:47 PM 7/16/96 EDT, Hugh Agnew wrote:

>One of my favorite Czech dishes is what we call "segedinsky gulas" (thus,
>obviously, identified in the Czech mind--if anyone still knows geography--
>with Szeged).  It's made with pork, not beef, has sour cabbage in it, and
>has a sour-cream paprika sauce.  Does this resemble any "real" Hungarian
>dish in any way, and if so, is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?

That dish is called "sze'kelygulya's" or "sze'kelyka'poszta".  And yes, it
is a "real" Hungarian dish.  Is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?
None that I can think of except that Szeged is closer to Translyvania than,
say Brno.  The dish is probably a mispronunciation since Szeged and Sze'kely
may sound the same to a non Hungarian.

Joe Szalai

Hugh Agnew wrote:
> One of my favorite Czech dishes is what we call "segedinsky gulas" (thus,
> obviously, identified in the Czech mind--if anyone still knows geography--
> with Szeged).  It's made with pork, not beef, has sour cabbage in it, and
> has a sour-cream paprika sauce.  Does this resemble any "real" Hungarian
> dish in any way, and if so, is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?

THis sounds like what is called sze'kely gulya's (Szekler goulash, Szekler
being the the Hungarian ethnicity living in the elbow of the Carpathians
in Transylvania).

I haven't the foggiest why the Czechs associate it with Szeged, but I
suppose both are in a similar direction viewed from Prague and both begin
with a sze- (well, sort of).

George Antony

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>         Zoli, you should have translated the word "baratfule," because it is
> so colorful: monk's ear. Great stuff, all of it.
 But then this is one of those cases where much of it is lost in
translation ;-)...

>         By the way, the nudli's elegant name is "burgonyamete'lt." Why
> "mete'lt" only God knows because "mete'lni" means "to cut" and you certainly
> don't cut the "nudli." Well, you do, kind of. Once you make a long, narrow
> roundish dough, you cut them into not too long "nudlik."

 Well, actually one does typically cut the dough into longish strips, then
down to the right lenght and then roll them into the final shape - so you
are sort of cutting ('mete1l') in the meantime, not that it completely
explains the 'official' name.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

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In article >,  says...
>
I believe the topics you describe are of interest to you on the net will
not be available on this list.  Try the medical and research lists.

Regards, Agnes

>I really enjoyed Frank A. Aycocks letter. Im new subscriber of the
>HUNGARY list. Some of the personalized proxy battles on the list are
>really horrifying. However I was not surprised because of the stile,
>since I know the writings of some contributors from other lists. I
>would prefer discussing problems of science and education in Hungary
>and the analysis of the current economical problems too. As hobby Im
>also interested  in the history (may favoured writers are Arnold
>Toynbee and Gordon Childe), and in greek philosophy (first of all I
>prefer Socrates of Athen). Formerly I was water polo player, so Im
>also interested in the water polo. Since my children are acrobatic
>divers, the diving is also favoured.
>My professional activity is concerned to mitochondria and gen
>transfer. If anybody is interested in these later topics, I would be
>happy.
>
>dr Gyorgy Bathori M.D.
>assitant prof.
>Dept. Physilology
>Semmelweis Medical University, Budapest

In article >,  says...
>
>
>Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.
>
>I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
>and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me
>with the following:
>
>Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs
>
>Which of the two sentences is correct??
>
The first version is correct, Achille.

Agnes

>Thank you for your time.
>
>Achille Albertelli
>
>E-mail: 
>

In article
>,
 says...
>
>Perhaps we have hit the nail on the head.
>
>Just like Andrew Dosza's grandmother..my mother (along with many others)
>used an art of cooking known as TASTING. This came about because the
>ingredients varied widely. In fact, the biggest problem with cooking
>(Hungarian) is that most recepies, includeing the "famed" George Lang
>have serious measurement errors an cannot be reproduced by following
them.
>
>The other real problem is that of substitution of ingredients.
>Well this is like that, asn so on BUT it is NOT! so it cannot taste the
same
>as the original!!!!.
>
>One cannot cook well UNLESS one tastes the food during cooking and
>corrects the tastes while it is being cooked.  My wife had a heck of a
>time trying to learn Hungarian dishes from my mother, until she learned
>to taste and measure with the fingers as a picnh of this and that while
you
>kept tasting the food for that ultimate dish flavor.
>
>After al, one of the main reasons (besides being hungry) that we eat is
>to enjoy and TASTE the food!!!
>
>Peter Soltesz

I agree.  I remember, as a newly married, young housewife, how much
difficulty I had to cook according to Vizvary Mariska's cookbook!
(retesteszta kemenysegure gyurjuk..... azutan berantjuk......)  My green
beans (zoldbabfozelek) always came out either watery, all I had to throw
out one half of the roux I made!

New subject:  I just learned last year that "csombor"is nothing less than
oregano!  Did you guys/girls knew that?

Agnes

In article
>,
"FRANK A. AYCOCK" > writes:

>P.S.  Anybody want to take bets on which country in Central Europe
>(excluding Russia and other former republics) will be the LAST to enact
>such ordinances?  My money's on Bulgaria (although the American
>University in Bulgaria is non-smoking completely)!

Albania.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >,  says...
>
>Hi all,
>We plan, with 2 of my friends to go in Budapest for a week in the
beginnig
>of August. Can anybody, tell me things that I HAVE TO SEE their. We will
>interested in Art in the mornig and in having fun in the night.
>Museum,Monument in the morning and Bars, Clubs in the night.
>
>Thx

I can only tell you about the art part and leave the fun part to others.

The finart museum is in the Royal Castle, in Buda.  You have to go there
anyhow and walk through the area.
There are guided tours inside the Parliament.  Recommended.
The Jewish museum/holocaust monument.
The Varga Imre museum (Obuda, Laktanya utca)
Don't miss an excursion to Szentendre and to the Kovacs Margit ceramic
museum.
Go on a Danube cruise to Visegrad/Esztergom.

There are beautiful open-air performances on the Margit sziget
(Margareten Island).

Enjoy your trip!

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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> That dish is called "sze'kelygulya's" or "sze'kelyka'poszta".  And yes, it
> is a "real" Hungarian dish.  Is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?
> None that I can think of except that Szeged is closer to Translyvania than,

 In Szeged we call it sze1kelyka1poszta, for sure :-). The placename
connection seems to be those funny bogus ones that is also seen, for
example, in us calling the bologna meat 'parizer' or the frankfurter
'debreceni' (although the latter pair is not exact equivalent, the former
one is I believe) ;-)...


- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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At 07:27 AM 7/16/96 -0300, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>Joe, did I miss something here? You are saying, if I read you rightly, that
>there were successful proletarian revolutions all over Western Europe,
>because all of Western Europe developed extensive social programs. However,
>it is sloppy intellectual thinking to think that that is the same phenomenon
>as the Soviet revolution.

The Russian revolution had three major components; 1)violent overthrow of
the government, 2)'social' revolution, and, 3)repression.  Take away the
violent overthrow of government and repression, and you're left with a
social revolution.  I believe that social revolution happened in Europe and
North America.  The powers that were, knew, or came to realize, that major
social changes had to happpen if they didn't want to risk a 'communist
revolution'.  Look.  The Russian Revolution is a bit like the French
Revolution.  Because of the French Revolution, European Kings realized that
they could no longer rule the way they used to.  Because the Kings forfeited
a lot of their power there wasn't much need for any more 'French
Revolutions'.  But major changes still happened thoughout Europe.

>For one thing, the main impetus for the
>development of the western social welfare scheme, if I remember, was the
>unrest and disillusionment with capitalism which was caused by the Great
>Depression on the one hand, combined with fear that the Soviets would export
>their revolution, on the other.

Exactly.  However, take away the fear, especially the fear of violence and
repression, of an exported Soviet style revolution and I wonder how
effective the unrest and disillusionment with capitalism would have been.
Who knows.  But, with the Soviet Union now gone, we may find out.

<snip>

>But, you can't say that this is the equivalent of the Soviet revolution. If
>I remember my Hegel, I would say that capitalism in the early 20th. century
>represented the *thesis.* International Communism in the 20's and 30's
>represented the *antithesis.* The social programs developed by the Western
>democracies represented the *synthesis.*

This is a rather novel way of looking at it.

>To say this was a revolution, however, would mean that you would have to say
>the development of capitalism was a *revolution,* the Enlightenment was a
>*revolution,* the development of representative government was a
>*revolution.* When it is used so loosely it becomes almost meaningless. Of
>course there is the *Industrial Revolution* - but that may be simply a
>failure in creative terminology! :-))

Well, they *were* revolutions.  And there weren't that many either.  I don't
think that the term is used loosely.  And the word certainly hasn't become
meaningless.

>>Is it just a coincidence that the attack on the social
>>programmes in the West happened just as the Soviet system was collapsing?
>
>Actually, the only coincidence may be that it was an unacceptable level of
>indebtedness that caused problems in both systems . . .  Can you think of
>another correlation?

Who was the level unacceptable to?  And why was the level acceptable while
the two systems were in competition?

Joe Szalai

At 11:40 AM 7/15/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>As about the 20th century history, let us face it that
>the revolutionary movements in Eastern Europe, esp. in
>Russia in the beginning of the century, had some moral
>bases. Just look at the level of oppression of the
>medieval political system of Nicholas. It's too bad
>that a violent force, that of Ulyanoff's, emerged as a
>leading power of the revolution. But the social
>movements (without the violence) were completely
>justified.
>

        You are straying very far away from the original subject. Let me
outline the background of this discussion.

        (1) Tibor Benke claimed that the excesses of capitalism were
responsible for communism. When I asked what he meant by communism, he said
he meant the Bolshevik revolution and the Soviet system which followed.

        (2) I pointed out to him that Russia was not a full-fledged
capitalist country, moreover, if capitalism was responsible for 1917 and
after then in all capitalist countries similar revolutions and "proletarian"
dictatorship would have followed. Clearly this didn't happen. I mentioned
that the concensus among historians is that the immediate cause of the
bolshevik revolution was war weariness and economic exhaustion as a result
of a war for which Russia was economically and technically unprepared. I
also pointed out that revolutionary outbreaks occurred only in countries
which lost the war: Germany, Hungary, and, in effect, Russia.

        (3) Then came those who were not satisfied with this explanation:
Eva Durant, Joe Szalai, and naturally, Tibor Benke. They tried everything
under the sun to convince the world that the bolshevik revolution and
soviet-style communism was the result of capitalist excesses. Yes, Russia
was not as well developed as England or the United States but, by 1917,
there was a global economy--said Joe Szalai. The problem here is that this
doesn't help his case a bit. Because if there was a global capitalist
economy then the more developed capitalist countries would have been the
first to experience a bolshevik-type revolution. Then, we had interesting
little stories about all those Russian aristocrats who were Francophiles,
and, after all, France was a capitalist country. Very weak, isn't it. Then,
we heard that the Russian "ruling class" was weak and hence . . . . Well, in
my opinion that doesn't wash either. Then came Lenin's explanation: some of
the capitalist countries acquired colonies and the money coming from the
exploitation of the colonies were spent on appeasing the working class and
thus to postpone the revolution. There are a couple of problems with that
explanation as well. Some of the countries didn't have colonies. And today,
the European capitalist countries have no colonies whatsoever, and yet the
bolshevik-type revolution alludes them. The latest is Joe Szalai's confusion
concerning the welfare state. He seems to forget that the bolshevik
revolution occurred in 1917 and the welfare state as we know it is about
thirty years old. And, of course, Joe Szalai tried the old trick of
sidetracking the issue: he began an argument about the nature of this
revolution. It was not a proletarian revolution because it was not lead by
proletarians. But, of course, this is beside the point.

        (4) Now comes Zoli Szekely who says that the Russians deserved what
they got because after all Russia was a terrible medieval place where a
revolution was justified. But then, why did it happen in 1917 and, let's
say, not in 1910?

        (5) Finally Zoli Szekely's last sentence has nothing to do with this
discussion:

>My point is, that if anybody has a different view from
>my views of the Russian Revolution, it still would not
>make him automatically a conspirationist or a nazi.

        Who said that someone with a different view of the Russian
revolution is a nazi. Nobody. The only thing is that Joe Szalai, Tibor
Benke, and Eva Durant hate to admit that the cause of the bolshevik
revolution was war weariness and economic exhaustion, instead of capitalism
per se. Where you get the words "conspirationist" or "nazi," I wouldn't
know, except you suspect that I label everybody a nazi, who disagrees with
me. That is, of course, entirely wrong. I call only nazis nazis.

        Eva Balogh

At 02:13 AM 7/15/96 GMT, Liviu Iordache wrote:

>That's very interesting! I never doubted that most Romanian
>place-names ended in "-oara" are probably derived from Hungarian
>(Timisoara, Hunedoara).

        Yes. To the best of my knowledge Hungarian vocabulary in Romanian is
quite extensive: 12-15 percent, something like that. This is not at all
surprising given Moldavia/Wallachia's relation with medieval Hungary. The
word "va'r" means "castle," "Burg," "Schloss." Persian origin and obviously
picked up with many other Iranian loan words before the arrival in the
Danubian basin.

>However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
>indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
>names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
>interpretation associated with these occurrences ? I can think of one
>but let me keep it in my sleeve for a moment or two :-)

        I'm surprised that you are surprised about that. Most of the
geographic names in that region are of Slavic origin, including, of course,
the place names in Transylvania.

        Eva Balogh

At 01:09 PM 7/15/96 -0700, Norma Rudinszky wrote:

>At the time of Hungarian arrival in central Europe, there wasn't really a
>set of DISTINCT Slavic languages, such as Slovak for Vysehrad and Serbian

        That is true, but the more I think about it the more I think that
Paolo is correct when he says that the Slovak H never became G in Hungarian.
Or at least the Hungarian Slavists think so. Under "gunya"--which by the way
almost convinced me originally--it is mentioned that the common ancestor of
the word was the proto-Slavic *gunja and although they are not sure from
which Slavic language it is borrowed, they think more in terms of
Serbo-Croatian.

        Eva Balogh

At 10:42 PM 7/15/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>My answer to your question is this.  Similar revolutions *did* break out in
>most European countries.

        You act as if you have forgotten that the emphasis was on countries
which lost, or de facto lost the war: Russia, Germany, Hungary. They such
revolutions broke out in those exhausted, war weary countries which lost the
war.

>The development of "The Welfare State" was Europe's
>revolution.

        You are mixing up things. The welfare state is a relatively new
phenomenon. Maybe thirty years old. But it is true that capitalism instead
of getting worse--as predicted by Marx--was getting better and, of course,
the trade union movement was also instrumental.

>Is it just a coincidence that the attack on the social
>programmes in the West happened just as the Soviet system was collapsing?

        Oh, I understand, it is a conspiracy of capitalists. The Soviet
system collapsed and therefore, we don't have to keep up pretenses! Is that
it? For Pete's sake, there is no connection between the two whatsoever. Hard
economic reality makes the changes necessary.

>An important part of the "aftermath" of the Bolshevik revolution was the
>repression, dictatorship, and secrecy in the Soviet Union.  Unfortunately,
>from my perspective, this is the only stuff that most people care to
>remember.

        Could you give us some examples of more heartwarming developments of
Stalin's or Brezhnev's Russia? You know the ones which people usually don't
talk about. Those horrible critics of the Soviet system like to talk about
"repression, dictatorhship, and secrecy," but surely there were many, many
good things as well.

>We're entitled to our impressions.  However, would you have been thrilled if
>Peter A. Nemenyi willingly joined your "camp of rightwingers"?

        Well, I doubt that he would join our camp. He hates everything we
stand for. But if he was ready to give up his right-wing ideas and become a
true liberal, I am sure we would welcome him.

>And how
>about Zoltan Szekely?  Would you be happy if I put him in your camp as Gabor
>Farkas appeared to put him in my "group"?

        Zoltan Szekely? Well, he claims to be a social democrat. In fact, if
I recall properly he even had some high position in the newly reconstructed
Social Democratic Party. So, I don't know. Maybe he does belong to your
group. We ought to ask him.

        Eva Balogh

At 03:17 PM 7/16/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>NPA wrote:
>> But why was it so important for the Manifesto to be completed by the first
>> of February? Because the "spontaneous revolutions" that had already been
>> planned all over Europe could "spontaneously" erupt on schedule. In fact
>> these "spontaneously planned" revolutions started on March 1, 1848 in
>> Baden followed by others in Vienna on March 12, Parma, March 13, Pest
>> March 15, Venice, March 22, etc.
>
>Do I understand this right ?  Do you mean to say that the Hungarian
>revolution of 1848 was planned by the international communist league
>and Kossuth, Petofi and the others were mere running dogs for the
>international conspiracy ?

        This fellow is very talented. He sees all sorts of connections we
ordinary mortals fail to see.

        Eva Balogh

Johanne wrote many very intelligent things in reply to Joe Szalai's
post but here I am concentrating on the following:

At 07:27 AM 7/16/96 -0300, Johanne wrote:

>As I remember, the key thing about the Czarist government was not just that
>it was totalitarian, but that it was an *inefficient* and *ineffective*
>totalitarian government.

        Yes, I agree although I wouldn't call it "totalitarian regime,"
which is a term which we can use only since the introduction of the soviet
system. Authoritarian would be perhaps a better word.

        Eva Balogh

I want you do know that Kossuth Radio is also available on the World
Wide Web. The site is: http://www.kossuth.enet.hu/

        The Kossuth Radio, as opposed to the Petofi Radio, has news at every
hour.

        By the way, I wrote to them and inquired about their plans for an
English-language news station. We will see.

        Eva Balogh

Since we have been talking about food and food and food, I think the
readers of this group must make sure that they read a wonderful piece about
Hungarian food, Hungarian butcher shops, Hungarian sausages, etc. in today's
Hirmondo. If you don't get it, I will be glad to copy it over.

        Eva

Eva Balogh wrote:

>>We're entitled to our impressions.  However, would you have been thrilled
>>if Peter A. Nemenyi willingly joined your "camp of rightwingers"?

>Well, I doubt that he would join our camp. He hates everything we
>stand for. But if he was ready to give up his right-wing ideas and become a
>true liberal, I am sure we would welcome him.

Hmmm, I am open for a dialog!

NPA.

Wow,  I never knew the Hungarian language has so many ways to say "Sorry,
I don't have coffee."  When I was there (1987, 1988), the only one I ever
heard was, "Nincs, zarva."

Burian

Eva Balogh wrote:

>This fellow is very talented. He sees all sorts of connections we
>ordinary mortals fail to see.

Should I take it as a compliment? Once you mentioned to me something
about the word "methodiza'la's" !

Or is this privilege granted only to real historians?

How about the dialog? :-)

NPA.

Re what to see and do in Budapest:

There's lots of great things, as A. Herringer's msg mentions.  But most of
those things involve "consuming" Budapest (nothing wrong with that).  But
if you want to actually experience Budapest (to "be in it"), and can only
do one thing, there's no contest:  go to one, more--or better yet, all--of
the Turkish baths.  There you won't be checking anything off a list,
you'll just lay in the water and see the real Hungarians, in all their
often-flabby authenticity.  (Re the flabbiness, I refer you to Steven
Scheer's earlier msg about how anything cooked without lard is considered
"imitation Hungarian.")  The baths are just terrific.  You don't have to
ask yourself what am I thinking, feeling, how am I responding to this.
You just lie there, and Hungary comes to you.

Only time for one?  Skip the Gellert, beautiful though it is--it's packed
with tourists.  Head for the Lukacs, check out the sanitarium section as
well as the baths.  Spend at least a couple of hours there.  If you start
to feel bored before then (you shouldn't), you're still back home.  When
all done, walk across the Margaret Bridge into Pest, head up Pozsonyi utca
a couple of blocks and have dinner at a restaurant called the Kiskakukk.

Then, if you want to go the same clubs you'll find anywhere else in the
world, fine.  But don't say you've been to Hungary till you've had a bath.

Burian

Eva Balogh wrote:

>I call only nazis nazis.

You mean, however is a member of the German style National Socialist
Party. Is it true?

NPA.