Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 510
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-12-05
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Ba1rdossy (mind)  96 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
3 Slovak Language Law (part1) (mind)  191 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: anti-American?? (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Information on Budapest Hotels (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Response to Eva Durant (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Anti-Americanism (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: A response to Szalai (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
12 GIs in Taszar (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: GIs in Taszar (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
14 Reuter & Associated Press (AP) News (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
15 Read WARNING label, and use list at your own risk (mind)  81 sor     (cikkei)
16 G.I.'s in Hungary(Hungarian Lobby) (mind)  124 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Slovak Language Law (part1) (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Read WARNING label, and use list at your own risk (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
19 Andras and the warning (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
21 Response to Sam Stowe (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: GIs in Taszar (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Joe Szalai and Clinton Election (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: GIs in Taszar (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
25 To everyone who is on the list (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: List Behavior/Hungarian Defamation (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: To everyone who is on the list (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Information on Budapest Hotels (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
29 Response to Darren Purcell (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
30 9th century history of Hungary (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
31 Response to Garry Collins (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
32 Vinyards of Tokaj wine tasting. (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: anti-American?? (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Ba1rdossy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E1va Balogh brings up a number of issues worth discussing.
> He plops Bardossy down somewhere in the middle of an ideal world full
> of people with impeccable morality and courage, and finds him wanting.
It is true I'm holding Ba1rdossy to a higher standard than I'd hold an
ordinary citizen. You may even say it's a double standard. Yet it's a
double standard going back to millenia both in Occcidental (Ceasar's wife
etc.) and Oriental cultures (cf. Confucius quote about the ruler and the
small man), and it's there for a good reason: leaders can cause bigger harm
than the small people. And it is quite true that my charges against him
make little sense on the basis of the more lax standard applied to ordinary
people: "failure to prevent bad things" and "failure to punish criminals"
are not charges that could be brought against ordinary people. But he was
not simply a man on the street -- he was prime minister.

> I don't think that anyone could in the past or can at the present
> establish direct responsibility between Bardossy, on the one hand, and
> Kamenets-Podolsk or Novi Sad, on the other.
I granted several times he was not directly responsibile. It's not for
issuing the order that I condemned him, but for failure to prevent the
atrocities and failure to punish those directly responsible.

> In fact, they repeat time and time again the steady and dangerous
> shift toward the extreme right both within the population at large and also
> in the political parties. It is also worth keeping in mind that the upper
> echelons of the Hungarian military were wholeheartedly pro-German.
I think this is a very valid point. Ba1rdossy didn't act in a vacuum,
and he was by no means the most extreme right-winger that there was.
Let me take the liberty to repost the sentence from FORUM #461 that
triggered this whole debate:

| Nem la1tom ku2lo2no2sebb e1rtelme1t annak hogy (...)
| Ba1rdossyro1l vitatkozzak, hiszen engem Ba1rdossy mint ember nem
| e1rdekel csak mint politikus, e1s a Ba1rdossy-politika (nevezzu2k
| neve1n: magyar fasizmus) megite1le1se1ben nem hiszem hogy valaha is
| egyete1rte1sre juthatna1nk.

[I see no reason to debate Ba1rdossy, since I'm not interested in him as a
person, only as a politician, and it is unlikely that we will ever see eye
to eye in our judgement of Ba1rdossy's policies (let's call them by their
name: Hungarian fascism)]

So I think E1va is getting to the heart of the matter, Ba1rdossy didn't act
alone. Responsibility for Hungarian fascism is shared by many, and he was
not the prime mover.  In fact, the moral rot of nazism touched every
segment of the society.

> As for the Jewish laws also mentioned by Andras as cause for the death
> sentence.
I think you misunderstand me. I am not in favor of the death penalty. If
some of the most disgusting nazis were found today (Mengele is said to be
still alive) I wouldn't want them executed. I wholly applauded the Israeli
Supreme Court when they let Duyvendak go, although it was pretty clear he
was guilty as hell. But fifty years have passed, and at this point
upholding standards of evidence is more important than punishing the
guilty. I did not for a minute defend the legality of the Ba1rdossy trial
or offered an after the fact rationalization that "even if for the wrong
reasons, he was rightfully executed". To the contrary, I said rightfully or
wrongfully, good riddance anyway.

What happened at that trial had nothing to do with justice, and everything
to do with vae victis. There was an armed conflict, with tremendous loss of
life on both sides. The SU won.  It was within their power to execute the
leaders of the other side, and they did. They also tried (rather
unsuccessfully) to put a cloak of legality over the matter. But unlike the
Polish officers mass-murdered at Katyn as the result of the same barbaric
impulse, who will have the sympathy of every civilized person, Ba1rdossy
doesn't rate the same sympathy.

> They meant to take the sail out of the extre right, but with
> hindsight we know now that this was not a very effective way of handling the
> country's steady shift toward the right. Fighting fire with fire is not the
> best way of handling matters in general. For the record, the first Jewish
> laws were accepted by Parliament on May 12, 1938, during the Daranyi
> government. The second Jewish laws were voted in by Parliament during the
> Teleki government (May 3, 1939).
Again this is entirely true, the Second Jewish Law already went beyond what
was civilized, or at least hold-your-nose acceptable, at that time (never
mind subsequent thinking on the matter). So Ba1rdossy here is in "good"
company. Would I hold Teleki responsible? If you want to know, I already
hold Go2mbo2s responsible, though he got high marks from contemporary Jews.
Would you believe that as of today, in San Francisco, there is a numerus
clausus in effect against Japanese students in certain high schools?
I find this abhorrent. Yet it is happening (it's been challenged in court,
but it's still in effect as far as I know) in our supposedly enlightened
age, and in the West Coast bastion of liberalism, of all places.

> And as for Kamenets-Podolsk, I
> really don't know enough about it. Put it that way, the huge (1384 pages)
> history of Hungary between 1918-1945 doesn't even mention the case.
This is truly sad -- Kamenets-Podolsk was, in the words of Braham, "the
first stage in carrying through the programme of the Final Solution where
the number of victimes required five figures to express". That an official
history of Hungary (and one written under communism at that) doesn't even
bother to mention it, this is terrible.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hugh Agnew reflects on some of the unpleasantness seen on the list lately:

> ... can a free, tolerant, pluralistic society make restrictions on
> "freedom of expression" and remain free, tolerant, and pluralistic?  That
> is the sort of Hungary (or any other country) I think it would be good to
> work towards, but, when any element of society or the political spectrum
> with another vision can use the very freedom, tolerance and openness of
> the system to work against it, what then?

The classic treatment of this question is in Chapter 35 of John Rawls' book:
A Theory of Justice.  The chapter is titled Toleration of the Intolerant.
I see no way of condensing Rawls' argument, but I'll quote the statement of
the problem at the start of the chapter, and the conclusion near the end:

  Let us now consider whether justice requires the toleration of the
  intolerant, and if so under what conditions.  Several questions should
  be distinguished.  First, there is the question of whether an intolerant
  sect has any title to complain if it is not tolerated; second, under what
  conditions tolerant sects have a right not to tolerate those who are
  intolerant; and last, when they have the right not to tolerate them, to
  what end it should be exercised.  Beginning with the first question, it
  seems that an intolerant sect has no title to complain when it is denied
  an equal liberty.  A person's right to complain is limited to violations
  of principles he acknowledges himself.  A complaint is a protest addressed
  to another in good faith.  It claims a violation of a principle that both
  parties accept.  [...]

  The conclusion, then, is that while an intolerant sect does not itself
  have title to complain of intolerance, its freedom should be restricted
  only when the tolerant sincerely and with reason believe that their own
  security and that of the institutions of liberty are in danger.  The
  tolerant should curb the intolerant only in this case.  The leading
  principle is to establish a just constitution with the liberties of
  equal citizenship.  The just should be guided by the principles of
  justice and not by the fact that the unjust cannot complain.  Finally,
  it should be noted that even when the freedom of the intolerant is
  limited to safeguard a just constitution, this is not done in the name
  of maximizing liberty.  The liberties of some are not suppressed simply
  to make possible a greater liberty for others.  Justice forbids this
  sort of reasoning in connection with liberty as it does in regard to the
  sum of advantages.  It is only the liberty of the intolerant which is to
  be limited, and this is done for the sake of equal liberty under a just
  constitution the principles of which the intolerant themselves would
  acknowledge.

  [end of Rawls quote]

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Slovak Language Law (part1) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Below is the translation of the first part of the much discussed
Slovak Language Law. Excuse my French. I cannot afford putting more
resources into this. I believe the translation is sufficient for
current use, but if the wording is really important, it's a good idea
to have it reviewed by a professional translator. The original text
from Friday's issue of Pravda (1 Dec 95) can be found on URL
http://savba.savba.sk/logos/news/pravda/data/09-0112.html The final
version should be published in the "Zbierka Zakonov" and still may
differ.

All disclaimers apply.

Roman Kanala





---------------------------
Law of the National Council of the Slovak Republic
concerning the State Language of the Slovak Republic

The National Council of the Slovak Republic,
concluding from the fact that the Slovak language is the most important
sign of the specificity of the Slovak nation, the most precious value of
its cultural heritage and the expression of the sovereignity of the
Slovak Republic as well as the general mean of the communication of its
citizen, that assures their freedom and their egality in dignity and in
rights on the territory of the Slovak Republic,
has approved on 15 November 1995 the following law:


Art. 1
Introductory provision

1) The State Language on the territory of the Slovak Republic is the
Slovak language.

2) The State Language has priority over other languages used on the
territory of the Slovak Republic.

3) The Law does not adress the use of the liturgic languages. Use of these
languages are submitted to prescriptions of churches and religious
societies.

4) The Law does not address the use of languages of national minorities
and ethnic groups. The use of these languages are submitted to specific
laws.


Art. 2
The State Language and its Protection

1) The State
   a) creates such conditions in the school, science and information
      system such conditions that every citizen of the Slovak Republic
      to be able to learn and use the State Language in both its oral
      and written forms,
   b) is busy with the scholar research on the State Language, of its
      historical development, with the research on regional and social
      dialects, with the codification of the State Language and with
      the improvement of the culture of the language.

2) The codified version of the State Language is proclaimed by the
Ministry of the Culture of the Slovak Republic (in the futher text
"Ministry of Culture") on propositions of specialized slovakist linguist
institutions.

3) Any interference with the codified form of the State Language in
contradition with its rules is not admitted.


Art. 3
Use of the State Language for official purpose

1) State organs and State organisations, organs of territorial autonomy
and organs of the public law institutions (in the further text, "public
organs") for the exercice of their function compulsorily use the State
Language on the entire territory of the Slovak Republic. Demonstration of
appropriate oral and written language skills is the pre-condition for any
employment or similar work relation and a pre-condition for the execution
of agreed task in the designed work activity in a public organ.

2) Employees and functionaries of the public organs, employees in the
transporation and telecommunications, as well as the members of the armed
forces, armed security forces, other armed corps and fire brigades are
using the State Language for all official purpose.

3) In the State Language will be
   a) edited laws, government decrees and other general legally binding
      prescriptions, including those of organs of territorial autonomy,
      decisions and other public documents,
   b) realised the conferences of public organs
   c) held all the official agenda (registers, records, decisions,
      statistics, archives, bilances, official notes, informations
      destined to the public, etc.) and the agenda of churches and
      religious societies destined to the public,
   d) introduced official names of communes and their parts, designation
      of streets and other public places, other geographic names, as
      well as other data on the State cartography opus including
      cadaster maps; the denomination of the communes in other languages
      is subject to a specific law
   e) held chronicles of the communes. A casual version in other language
      is the translation from the State Language.

4) Public organs and organisations founded by them have the obligation to
use the State Language in all the informations systems as well as in their
written correspondence between them.

5) Written remarks of the citizen destined to the public organs are to be
made in the State Language.

6) Every citizen of Slovak Republic has right to a free modification of
his first name and family name into its Slovak orthograph version.


Art. 4
Use of the State Language in the School System

1) Teaching of the State Language is mandatory in all the primary and
secondary schools. Other language than the State Language is the teaching
language and examen language in an extent regulated by special
prescriptions.

2) Pedagogic employees in  all the schools and school facilities have the
obligation to master and to use the State Language in both its oral and
written form, with the exception of foreign teachers and lecturers.

3) All the pedagogic documentation is to be held in the State Language.

4) Schoolbooks and textbooks used in the educational process in the Slovak
Republic are edited in the State Language, except the schoolbooks and
texbooks for teaching of the languages of the national minorities, ethnic
groups and other foreign languages. Their editing and use are regulated by
special prescriptions.

5) Provisions of the al. 1, 2 and 4, do not concern the use of the State
Language for teaching at the Universities, for teaching of other
languages, or for education in other language than the State Language, nor
for use of the schoolbooks or textbooks for teaching at the Universities.


Art. 5
Use of the State Language in the mass informations media, on the cultural
events and public meetings

1) Broadcast in the radio and television on the entire territory of the
Slovak Republic is done in the State Language. Exceptions are
   a) radio and TV broadcasts in foreign languages composed of
      audiovisual works and other voice-picture records with titles in
      the State Language or otherwise fulfilling the exigence of basic
      understandibleness from the point of view of the State Language,
   b) Slovak Radio broadcast in foreign languages destined to foreign
      audience, TV and language courses and broadcast of similar
      character,
   c) musical programs with original texts.
Broadcast in languages of national minorities and ethnic groups are
regulated by special prescriptions.

2) Audiovisual works in foreign languages destined to children under 12
years have to be dubbed into the State Language.

3) Radio and TV operators, speakers and moderators have the obligation to
use the State Language in the broadcast.

4) Broadcast of local and regional TV stations, radio stations and radio
equipments is in principle being performed in the State Language. Other
languages are allowed to be used before the broadcast and after the
broadcast in the State Language.

5) Periodic publications and non-periodic publications are edited in the
State Language. Editing press in other languages is regulated by a special
prescription.

6) Occassional press destined to the public, catalogs of galleries,
museums, libraries, programs of cinemas, theaters, concerts and other
cultural productions are edited in the State Language. In case of
necessity, they may contain foreign translations.

7) Cultural and educational events are performed in the State Language or
in other language, if they fulfill the requirements of basic
understandibleness from the point of view of the State Language.
Exceptions are the performances of the national minorities, ethnic groups,
visiting foreign artists and musical performances with original texts.
Introducing them has to be done in the State Language first.

8) Every participant of a meeting or a lecture on the territory of the
Slovak Republic has the right to give his performance in the State
Language.

( ... )
+ - Re: anti-American?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-cut-
>
> And I suppose the worst poison of all was the deal cut between the
> abdicating communists with their opposition...that the apparatus
> would not be prosecuted by the new government.  Thus, as in Poland, the
> "progressive communists" took over the now "freed" economy, and have
> been ruthlessly running it for their own benefit.
>
> This message is something of a tirade, for which I suppose I should
> apologize in advance.  I mean it is a provocation.
>
> So let me ask a question of the participants in this discussion
> group.  Are there *in English* any sound, well-argued treatments of the
> issues I raise above?  Do any of you yourselves know anything specific and
> verifiable about such matters?
>

I do not defend the old apparatus ending up as the new capitalists.
What I question is, why would be any different/better,  with other
"captains of industry"? They seem to behave exactly the same, as
corrupt as they are allowed by the state burocracy, that exists
to maintain the system - everywhere.  The only difference in
Hungary is, that some of them are not so apt yet in daylight
robbery as others. They'll learn...

+ - Re: Information on Budapest Hotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gellert is the undisputed choice.  Roght on the bank of the river Danube this
gem of a hotel also contains a complete Turkish bath, perhaps the best is
Budapest.  Hotel Erzsebet is nothing like that but it isn't a "real bad
hotel" either.

Good  luck

Alex
+ - Re: Response to Eva Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> : Who elected the bankers?
>
> or the butchers, the bakers, and the candle-stick makers?
>
>
BUT
the bankers have power over the butchers, the bakers and
even the candle-stick makers...
+ - Re: Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hugh Agnew wrote:

: ...when any element of society or the
: political spectrum with another vision can use the very freedom, tolerance
: and openess of the system to work against it, what then?

Then, what does not kill us makes us stronger?


--Greg Grose

+ - Re: Anti-Americanism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> I realize getting into any kind of extended discussion with you over your
> slavish devotion to an outmoded ideology is useless. Please rest assured
> that while you are feeling all warm and tingly about your superior
> consciousness and concern for the exploited masses, a bunch of us
> capitalists will be struggling to clean up a mess that somehow you never
> could see rotting right under your nose.
>

I have no slavish devotion to any ideology, If you put reasonable
arguments, I change my mind, it happened before.  However, on this
list I haven't heard a reasonable argument yet besides the two
points "human nature" and "it didn't work" to which I do have
valid responses.  Just to call it outmoded is not sufficient.
I don't feel warm and superior, I feel frustrated and in a
minority. I have all the reason in the world to capitulate
to your ideas, but my cognitive/critical faculties won't
let me...


> Until Pres. Clinton decided to enforce the Dayton peace treaty by
> committing American ground troops to Bosnia, I don't recall one goddamned
> post on your part calling for someone, anyone, to stop the slaughter
> there. Your outrage, in fact, was reserved for America. I have to give you
> this -- you're consistent. I believe it would amaze everyone on this list
> if you were ever able to think for yourself outside the narrow parameters
> of Marxism-Leninism. This "above the fray" crap you try and dish up every
> time you get caught twisting events to fit your own ideological prejudices
> isn't fooling anyone.
>

I did put my points forward on  this issue.  I have no outrage,
I have skeptisizm about the outcome, and suspicions about the
motives, these were also aired together for the reasons for them.
If I am proved wrong, and the US troups will bring a long-term
peaceful solution, I'll be happy.  Marxism does teach you to use
it as a tool in an analysis, to do this, you have to think for
yourself, as this analysis is not usually promoted by the mass media...

> You might want to be careful boasting about your innate Hungarianness and
> your ties to the lower class. I understand the libel laws in Britain are a
> good deal stricter than they are here in the United States.
>
> Sam Stowe

It's you who is busy libeling me. You're lucky I am not the vengeful type,
though I could do with the money some people make out of it...
 I am a Hungarian citizen (dual citizenship is allowed
here), and I work as a
technician, which is in my book not exactly a middle class
occupation... So instead of attacking me personally, put
forward decent points of argument please.


+ - Re: A response to Szalai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>My dictionary gives the meaning of transgression as
>"the breaking or violation of any law, civil or moral, expressed or
>implied."  I did not know that being critical of American foreign policy
was
>a sin.  Your suggestion that we stick to things Hungarian is nothing more
>than a pitiable attempt at excommunication.
>
>Joe Szalai

Stop putting words in my mouth. You're having enough trouble dealing with
what I'm actually saying. Your "sin", if you insist on putting it that
way, is not criticizing American foreign policy per se. Any idiot can
criticize American foreign policy -- it's often contradictory even in its
better moments. What burns me up is when you twist events so you can take
a cheap shot at the United States. You deliberately tried to make it sound
as if the Americans were falling all over themselves to get into Bosnia.
Yet, as a resident of Canada, it's next to impossible for you to avoid
American television and print media. As a result of even cursory exposure
to that media, you'd have known how conflicted Americans are about the
Bosnia mission and the general reluctance we have about getting involved
there. There was no sign of that in your posts. Why? I can only assume you
are either oblivious to American media (which undercuts your argument
about how pervasive our culture impact is on societies like Canada's) or
you deliberately ignored it in order to score cheap points with readers on
this list who, further away from the U.S., would have no way of knowing
whether what you said was true or not.

You are obviously alarmed about the Yankee Imperialists moving in just
down the street from Hungary. There goes the neighborhood. Why did you
offer up no similar outrage on this group months ago when the Bosnian
Serbs were busy massacring their neighbors? Is it just me or is there a
staggering difference of magnitude here?

Since you obviously feel America is more of a threat to central Europe
than any little old genocidal conflict in Bosnia, let's try to gauge just
how big a threat it is. Bigger than a resurgent Russian empire? Those
readers who actually grew up in Hungary under just such domination might
beg to differ with you. This is a crucial point in your argument. But you
never have bothered to deal with it in any of your responses to either me
or anyone else on the list who has criticized your position. This is the
last post I'm going to make on here in response to your provocations. But
fair warning to readers -- it won't be the last post on the subject.
Szalai's always gotta get the last word in.

Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have no data here, but in the UK the standard of
living is going down steadily since the mid-seventies,
faster for the poor. The rich is getting richer - good example
the recent budget, you didn't even have to read between
the lines to see, that those over stg30 000 gained, everybody
else lost out...
In Hungary there is now a wealthy yuppy strata with all
the status symbols, but I think most people would agree with me,
that there is more poverty now with the mass unemployment, than
there was before.  I don't think the socialist would have been voted
back without this fact.  The usual scenario prevails,
the rich is getting richer, and the poor poorer.
However the differentials are not yet as bad as here in the UK,
there was a report on  radio 4.
There is also uncertainty, which
ruins self-esteem and social balanvce more, than any lack
of religion, the right is keep going on about.

+ - Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Eva Durant wrote:
> > Hungary  was not more dead
> > from it's "socialism", than a lot of other countries from
> > capitalism  see: Haiti, Columbia, etc.
>
> Hungary went backwards in its relative position in Europe, considering
> economic development and living standards, during its period of "socialism".
> Now even Greece and Portugal are ahead of Hungary, while they were well
> behind before WWII.
>

Could you send data about this?  When I visited Greece in the
seventies, it's health and education system and rural poverty
did not compare favourably.  I am curious about the pre-war figures, too.



> If by Columbia you mean the South American country ColOmbia, it has been the
> second best performer in Latin America in economic development over many
> decades.  (The first was Chile.)  And dragging a personal fiefdom of a countr


Economic development based on the drug industry? That is the impression
from the media, or was it not appearent for decades?  Is the poverty
of the poor there compareble with the Hungarian?  If that is the price
of "development"  who wants it?
Chile - again, what price for development!

> such as Haiti into the argument will only confirm you as an ignorant and
> tendentious debater, as it has nothing to do with the liberal democracy cum
> regulated capitalism model that is being tried for Hungary.
>
>

The US had found nothing wrong with the dictatorship in Haiti
until lately. I don't know about any sanctions for decades.
Indonasia ditto. Where is the defender of freedom and democracy?



>
> No, you are not.  Some diligent reading of the development literature would
> be highly recommended to provide you with some factual knowledge in lieu of
> false assumptions.  And I mean comparative international statistics, not
> merely the reheated Marxist jingoism that Ms Durant prefers to facts.
> She has amply demonstrated over some years to be beyond hope and rational
> arguments. You have appeared only recently, so there is still some scope
> for not being written off the same way as her.
>

Yes, give us the facts, not the jungoism, and remember,
economic growth doesn't mean that the poor is not getting
poorer (see: Mexico, Brasil, and probably most of the
latest "miracles")   I do put rational arguments, you resort
to personal put-down.  I have no time to research data,
you're wellcome to supply it. But growth figures are not
enough, compare unemployment figures, health and education data,
please.  Or are these things to be ignored, in case they g away?
It could work with me, but not with the unsolvable problems your
beloved system has.

+ - GIs in Taszar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There is a very sweet article (New York Times, front page) about the
excitement at Taszar (six miles from Kaposvar, population 80,000) over the
arrival of the Americans. I downloaded the article via AOL and will be glad
to send it to anyone interested.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: GIs in Taszar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> There is a very sweet article (New York Times, front page) about the
> excitement at Taszar (six miles from Kaposvar, population 80,000) over the
> arrival of the Americans. I downloaded the article via AOL and will be glad
> to send it to anyone interested.
>
> Eva Balogh
>
Eva, I like the term "sweet" (no sarcasm intended) because I thought the
guy sinking life saving into the restaurant was touching and yet a sign
of the desperation to make a good impression/profit of of this, as they
should.

I think the prices of good Pecsi Sor should be doubled for the GI's ,
like it was when I entered a bar and couldn't speak Magary back in 92. :-)

Darren
+ - Reuter & Associated Press (AP) News (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To: hungary @ Glue.umd.edu @ Internet
cc:  (bcc: John Czifra/SHI)
From: kovacs @ Glue.umd.edu ("Arpad F. Kovacs") @ Internet @ WORLDCOM
Date: 12/04/95 06:37:30 AM CST
Subject: Reuter & Associated Press (AP) News


95. 12. 3.

Rumanian state TV starts international broadcast

BUCHAREST (Reuter) - Romanian TVR state television said Thursday it will
launch daily international broadcasts by satellite directed at members of
the 10-million-strong Romanian diaspora across Europe and as far away as
Israel.  The broadcasts, for three and a half hours a day, start on
Romania's national day Friday. Romanians have long complained that the
country, particularly in the post-communist era, has failed to capitalise
on Romanians living abroad as neighboring states like Hungary have done.
The feed is on Eutelsat IIF3 between 1930-2300 GMT.

  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Szervusz,

What would happen if Hungary banned these broadcasts as the Romanian government
did
the Duna TV broadcasts???? Fair is fair isn't it?? Oh, well. I just thought it
was an interesting article to show how hypocritical the Romanian government is.

Udv. ,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Read WARNING label, and use list at your own risk (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    *** THIS LIST IS NOT WITHOUT OBJECTION BY HUNGARIANS ***
THIS "HUNGARY" LIST, BY USURPING THE NAME OF A SOVEREIGN DEMOCRATIC
COUNTRY, PRETENDS TO BE INCLUSIVE, OPEN TO ALL. BUT CONTRARY TO ITS
FALSE REPRESENTATION, IT IS ON RECORD OF USING UNILATERAL CENSORSHIP.
PERMITS DEFAMATION (DENIAL) OF HUNGARIAN FREEDOM FIGTHERS OF 1956
("szabadsagharc elmaradt") WHILE HUNGARIAN ANTIDEFAMATION FIGHT IS
ON RECORD OF BEING UNILATERALLY CENSORED.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately, I feel morally compelled to post my unchanged opinion
about this LIST. Hungarians, Americans and even readers from Guinea-
Bissau are entitled, IMHO, to a WARNING because of the above facts
of this LIST. Since any decision on the list by its owner is entirely
his privilege, this opinion implies zero intent to enter into any
argument with the owner. Opinion is expressed, as long as permitted,
in the interest, as I perceive it, of readers and contributors of a
list entitled "HUNGARY". Inclination to debate the owner is lessened
further by the fact that I know only one job that is more miserable,
undesirable and ultimately futile than imposing censorship itself,
- and that is to fabricate feeble justification and defense for having
done so. (BTW, Kadar was much more transparent morally when he, in bad
conscience, "justified"  his annihilation of Freedom Fighters, than
at the time he volunteered to be puppet of powers ordering to do so).

Usurping the name of a sovereign democratic country, HUNGARY, is a
cardinal problem of this List, and as a citizen of HUNGARY I feel
entitled to object. I am sure that, should this downtrodden country
be in even a little better shape, she would never officially tolerate
abuse of her name any more than e.g. Coca-Cola, or any other decent
brand of soft drink with Trademark on its name, would tolerate
containing something significantly different than what the label
pretends.

Apparently, I may have been right that the censor of HUNGARY can not
read the language of HUNGARY, since the quoted book-excerpt proves the
case, IMHO, that values of HUNGARY (the Country) are not at all values
of HUNGARY (this List). The quoted book was NOT censored in HUNGARY,
(the Country, even with only a "partially free press"), although
its author Jeno Szatmari uses *exactly the kind of racial reasoning*
for a political fight, as the censored contributor used here on HUNGARY
(the List). Szatmari justifies his attacks against some whom he perceives
as extremist Jews in liberal party SZDSZ, by claiming moral authority
based on racial arguments that he (allegedly) had a Jewish grandfather
(shot in the Holocaust) and Jewish rabbi great-grandfather. This is
not only a major issue in HUNGARY (the Country) but HUNGARY (the Country)
is tolerant enough to permit social debate of this issue uncensored.
Therefore, IMHO it is rather unprecedented and deplorable, if an
apparently American HUNGARY, THE LIST resorts to LESS TOLERANCE THAN
HUNGARY THE COUNTRY of resolving by exploration (rather than by sup-
pression and resulting explosion) of the same kinds of undeniably
existing racial undertones of certain political issues.

Furthermore, both the problem that "Values of HUNGARY misrepresent
values of HUNGARY" and the problem "Who guard the guardians?" should
be clear to readers from the fact, that the censor of HUNGARY values
little the denial of "Freedom Fighters of 1956" ("szabadsagharc
elmaradt"). Not only deems it unwarranting censorship, but adds insult
to injury of many Hungarians by calling the issue a mere "red herring").
While, at the same time, the censor values higher the (undisputed)
embarrassment of a contributor who *declared himself by his poem*
that he clearly underwent an "identity-crisis" because of his relatives'
problematic communist and/or religious beliefs. IMHO, confusion of a
single participant, especially once he openly *shared* his problems with
the wide audience of Internet himself, is a far LESS "sensitive" issue,
much less warranting the drastic measure of censorship, than the
embarrassment of a whole nation by witnessing publicly denied its
brightest heroic struggle in its history. I am sure that more
appropriate mechanisms than my opinion would be available to "guard
the guardians", who permit defamation of Hungarian Freedom Fighters
in the Internet, should HUNGARY be ruled not by a person who fought
*against* Hungarian Freedom Fighters in 1956, and an accomplice whose
father was a high ranking AVO (Hungarian KGB) officer at that time.

Undeniably, there will be both participants of HUNGARY who actually
prefer the kind of censorship in HUNGARY that even HUNGARY does not
impose, and innocent users who would be unaware of it. To the likely
enrichment by the former, I have little to say. The latter however,
IMHO, deserves a dire WARNING:

"Use this censored List at your own risk"
+ - G.I.'s in Hungary(Hungarian Lobby) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

It seems to me that the fact that American G.I.'s are passing through
Hungary, makes Hungary more interesting to the American press and as such,
this gives us an opportunity to tell something about our homeland to the
world. I have attempted to do that in the attached text.

Please do think about writing to your local paper in a similar tone. I would
not suggest to copy the text below, because it is based on my personal
experiences and impressions. I am attaching this text only to give you some
ideas on how you might do both: give advice to our American children, who are
on their way to a strange land and at the same time, give the American
readers an idea about our Hungarian homeland and her history and problems.

I am sure that your local paper would be glad to publish your description of
what awaits the G.I.'s and in the process, youy can do some good for Hungary.
If you do not know the E-mail address of your local paper(s), let me know,
and I will send it to you.

Please do write. This is a great opportunity for the Hungarian Lobby to speak
up and influence American public opinion. Best regards: Bela Liptak




Bosnia-Bound G.I.'s In Hungary

The American G.I.'s can see and learn much more in Hungary than the press
reports would suggest. Let me give a few examples.
       On their first day they should visit downtown Kaposvar and take in the
air of old Europe. They could take a walk in the downtown area, where no cars
are allowed, stroll in the middle of the street and join the crowd on the
promenade. Walk with the boys, who are immersed in earnest girl- watching,
observe the ladies who are in the process of replenishing their gossip
supplies and notice the elderly who are on their pre-dinner constitutional.
Observe that nobody is in a hurry and notice the frequency at which the hats
are tipped, showing how many of the strollers know and care about the others.

       During that walk, the G.I.'s might step into one of the flower shops,
- where people buy their roses, imported from Egypt and Israel, - and note
that they always buy 11 roses, so that their sweetheart herself will round
the number to a full dozen. Step into a coffee shop and pick up one of the
papers, hanging on the wall on stick-handles or have a real Hungarian  kremes
, the pastry which the French attempted to copy (calling it Napoleon), but
could never quite get it.
       After the walk, the G.I.'s could drop by the home of Imre Nagy, the
martyred Prime Minister, whom the Russians hanged after the 1956 Freedomfight
or they could visit one of Europe's best theaters, which happens to be in
Kaposvar. Or if they have to be back in the barracks for dinner, they could
drop in the Museum at the middle of the promenade and get an idea of the
history and art of the Hungarian Kingdom, which used to be one of Europe's
oldest and largest. In the museum, they should ask for the director: Tibor
Tomosvary. In 1990, when I entered as a Green Party candidate in the
elections there, he was my campaign manager. The other Green Party candidate
he  managed  was Karoly Szita. Today, he is the Mayor of Kaposvar.
       If the G.I.'s can take off a full day, I am sure that either the mayor
or the museum director will be glad to organize some trips for them. My first
recommendation would be to visit the matchless Boronka National Park on the
banks of the Drava. It is a wonderland of 340 bird species and the world's
densest fallow-deer (giant red deer) population. This treasure was preserved
by the Iron Curtain, because as the Reds mined a 20-mile strip around the
Drava river, they coincidentally conserved this enchanted fairyland.
      Actually, the goal of the Green Party in 1990 was to protect the river
Drava and its ecosystem from the construction of a hydroelectric dam, similar
to the one that destroyed the Danube at Gabcikovo in Slovakia. Karcsi
(today's mayor) and I, we lost the election, but succeeded in stopping the
construction and preserving the Drava. The G.I's should see this river. It is
one of only two free flowing rivers left in Europe (a section of the Loire is
the other) and there is only one (the Yellowstone) comparable to it, in the
United States. What makes a river free flowing is that it is not confined
between banks, but is free to change its course, free to build or wash away
island, free from all man-made limitations, free to be itself and show its
moods.
      If the G.I.'s ask Tibor (the museum director), he will show them the
osprey nests, where these eagles of 8 feet wing-spreads are nursing their
young or will show them one of the 150 lanner nests that remain in the whole
world. While tiptoeing under the massive, centuries old oaks, he might tell
the G.I.'s, that Hungarians call the lanner:  Turul  and according to their
mythology, it was this bird that impregnated their deer ancestress, to father
the nation of Bela Bartok and John Neumann.
      On the way back from the river, they can stop at one of the hunting
lodges and see the immense antlers of the red deer stags. The largest antlers
are on display, and the largest was shoot by an American. Tibor will tell the
G.I.'s that these hunting lodges were the golf courses of the old world. They
provided the  discrete  atmosphere for kings and emperors, dictators and
party bosses to plot their schemes of intrigue or to make their deals. Some
say that it was here, where the GESTAPO poisoned Csaky, the foreign minister
of the anti-Nazi government of Count Teleki in 1941 and I would not be
surprised, if statesman came here for a bit of hunting, before NATO is
expanded.
      If the G.I.'s have an other free day, they might visit the battlefield
of Mohacs, about an hour's drive to the south-east or visit the castle of
Szigetvar which is 30 minutes to the south. At the monument gardens of
Mohacs, they would learn that in 1526, a few years after Columbus sailed for
America, a Hungarian army of 28,000 attempted to defend European Christianity
against the Turkish army of 200,000. The G.I.'s would learn that 25,000
Hungarians, including their King died in the fight, which resulted in 150
years of Ottoman occupation. The G.I.'s would note, that when their guide
speaks of this Hungarian Pearl Harbor, this defeat, which almost destroyed
one of Europe's great kingdoms, he will proudly add:  But the sacrifice
succeeded: we saved Europe!
      On their way back from Mohacs, the G.I.'s could have lunch in Pecs, an
old city that used to be the capital of the Roman province of lower Pannonia.
In this city of five churches (Quinque Ecclesiae), one finds an 11th century
cathedral, and Hungary's oldest university, founded in 1367.
     In the afternoon, the G.I.'s they could visit Szigetvar, the fortress
defended by Nicholas Zrinyi against the Ottoman sultan Suleyman in 1556. Both
Suleyman and Zrinyi died during the siege, the fortress fell, but the Turkish
armies were exhausted, and Europe was once again saved. This fortress is a
marvelous engineering feat. It was built in the lowlands, in the middle of an
artificial lake, yet it stopped the world's largest army of the time. One can
marvel at the natural ventilation of the fortress, which was achieved by
using only the chimney effect, but one can marvel even more at the spirit of
these fighters, who similarly to our G.I.'s, were fighting for something much
more than self-interest, they were fighting for what at that time was called
Europe, and what today is called human decency or human rights.
       It was not my intent to write a travel guide for our G.I.'s. All I
wanted to do was to raise their expectations a bit beyond brothels and greasy
french fries. At the same time, I wanted to reassure these uniformed children
of ours, that what they are about to do, is not new in these parts, that
Hungarians understand what sacrifice is all about and they will respect the
self-less sacrifice of our G.I.'s.

Your name, address, title
+ - Re: Slovak Language Law (part1) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I > wrote:

>Below is the translation of the first part of the much discussed
>Slovak Language Law. Excuse my French. I cannot afford putting more
>resources into this. I believe the translation is sufficient for
>current use, but if the wording is really important, it's a good idea
>to have it reviewed by a professional translator. The original text
>from Friday's issue of Pravda (1 Dec 95) can be found on URL
>http://savba.savba.sk/logos/news/pravda/data/09-0112.html The final
>version should be published in the "Zbierka Zakonov" and still may
>differ.

Sorry for the typo: the correct URL of the Friday's Pravda issue is
http://www.savba.sk/logos/news/pravda/0112/09-0112.html#0
The article is still there, but may expire in a few days.

Roman Kanala
+ - Re: Read WARNING label, and use list at your own risk (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> From: Andras Szucs >
> ...
> ...and an accomplice whose father was a high ranking AVO (Hungarian KGB)
> officer at that time.

I thought it was only the communists that punished a person for who his father
was?

GarryC

############################################################################
# Better a dry crust                    # Internet:        #
# with peace and quiet,                 # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
# than a house full of feasting,        # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd     Marton #
# with strife.           Proverbs 17:1  # New Zealand   Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
############################################################################
+ - Andras and the warning (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

OK Andras, give it a break. Your outrage over the use of Hungary shows
that you are not a logical in any respect if you are willing to equate
the world Hungary (which is not found in Hungarian language ) with
Coca-Cola. Yes, you are right about this list in some ways, but
overblowing the imagery issue, as if this list ever claimed to pbe
representative of Hungary is absurd.

I won't claim to be a long-timer on this list, (since 93, except for
during the Fulbright year in Pecs), but no one ever claimed this was
cyberHungary anyway. Teh current listowner has not been the owner since
the inception (I think, since it was housed in California for a while).

So, express your outrage, feel free to do so, and if no one picks up the
debate....smile and feel justified in your opinion, or drop the list. No
one makes you stay on it

Darren Purcell
Young enough to get ticked at Andras, but old enough to know he generally
shouldn't reply.

Department of Geography
Florida State University
+ - Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony wrote:

>Contemporary phenomena are not necessarily related.  Have you heard about
>indebtedness ?  Canada has been paying for the social services you mention
>from borrowed money.  With the debt high, there is not only no more scope
>for further borrowing for such purposes, the money has to be paid back,
>cutting the amount of Canada's own recources that is available for the
>above purposes.

Thank you for your mini-lecture on indebtedness.  It must be a comforting
bromide to pontificate with such certainty.  We all understand that borrowed
money has to be paid back.  What I don't understand is why governments are
afraid to tax back that money from the wealthy.

>What is evident in Hungary is similar in many ways to Canada.  Living standard
s
>and social services were paid for from borrowed money, because the country's
>socio-economic system was not productive enough to provide resources for such
>level of services.

So your answer to my question about Hungarian living standards is, yes, it
has fallen.  Odd how a capitalist country such as Canada and a former
'socialist' nation such as Hungary can have similar problems.

>> I don't know if I am correct in my suspicions and assumptions.

>No, you are not.  Some diligent reading of the development literature would
>be highly recommended to provide you with some factual knowledge in lieu of
>false assumptions.  And I mean comparative international statistics, not
>merely the reheated Marxist jingoism that Ms Durant prefers to facts.
>She has amply demonstrated over some years to be beyond hope and rational
>arguments. You have appeared only recently, so there is still some scope
>for not being written off the same way as her.
>
>George Antony

But no doubt you will.  All I asked for was some information on the standard
of living in Hungary and in other countries.  Your homily failed to answer
my question.  It seems to me that you're too busy trying to pigeon-hole me.
Once you've succeded, and no doubt you will, you'll only have to rely on
your pat answers when you engage in a political discourse.  Talk about
'reheated jingoism'!!

Joe Szalai
+ - Response to Sam Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote:

>What burns me up is when you twist events so you can take
>a cheap shot at the United States. You deliberately tried to make it sound
>as if the Americans were falling all over themselves to get into Bosnia.
>Yet, as a resident of Canada, it's next to impossible for you to avoid
>American television and print media. As a result of even cursory exposure
>to that media, you'd have known how conflicted Americans are about the
>Bosnia mission and the general reluctance we have about getting involved
>there. There was no sign of that in your posts. Why? I can only assume you
>are either oblivious to American media (which undercuts your argument
>about how pervasive our culture impact is on societies like Canada's) or
>you deliberately ignored it in order to score cheap points with readers on
>this list who, further away from the U.S., would have no way of knowing
>whether what you said was true or not.

Wrong.  Wrong.  Wrong.  I live in a rural area of Ontario and I do not
subscribe to cable.  Hence, I don't see any American television.  Also, I
don't subscribe to any American publications except National Geographic.
(At the supermarket checkout I do flip through "World Weekly News" and the
"National Inquirer", -- now there's American culture for you!!!)

However, I still have a fair idea of what is happening in the US, and I
understand American foreign policy.  I just usually don't agree with it.
You have steadfastly insisted that the American GIs are going to Bosnia to
stop the killing.  I hope they will!  However, I think they're going to
Bosnia to help Clinton get re-elected.  How can I say something so skeptical
and outrageous?  Well, consider this.  In Congress, the Republicans were
assured that the GIs would be home in one year.  And what's happening in one
year?  You got it.  It's election time.

Now please don't get on your high horse and start calling me anti-Clinton.
I am not.  I supported (as much as a Canadian can) his desire to allow gays
in the military.  I supported his efforts to introduce universal medicare
for Americans.  And I supported his standoff last month against the
Republicans which curtailed government services.  But if he, a former draft
resister, is willing to risk American lives, to aid his re-election
campaign, then morally, America has nothing to offer the world.

>Since you obviously feel America is more of a threat to central Europe
>than any little old genocidal conflict in Bosnia, let's try to gauge just
>how big a threat it is. Bigger than a resurgent Russian empire? Those
>readers who actually grew up in Hungary under just such domination might
>beg to differ with you.

You keep accusing me of putting words in your mouth.  You're pretty good at
it yourself.

>This is the
>last post I'm going to make on here in response to your provocations. But
>fair warning to readers -- it won't be the last post on the subject.
>Szalai's always gotta get the last word in.

I guess you would be happy if I capitulated to your verbicide.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: GIs in Taszar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva, I like the term "sweet" (no sarcasm intended) because I thought the
guy sinking life saving into the restaurant was touching and yet a sign
of the desperation to make a good impression/profit of of this, as they
should.

I think the prices of good Pecsi Sor should be doubled for the GI's ,
like it was when I entered a bar and couldn't speak Magary back in 92. :-)

Darren

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Haliho,

I don't think the GI's would be, too, happy with the beers of Magyarorszag,
after
drinking all the fine beer's of Nemetorszag. There's not that many great beers
in
Hungary. Actually, this would make an interesting question for everyone. What
is
the best beer Hungary produces? Dreher, Spaten, and the like don't count
because
Hungary is under license to produce those. By far the nastiest beer produced is
Amstel. I'm partial to Kobanyi Vilagos, though it's hard to get as you head to
Hajdu-Bihar
megye, where Borsodi is king (yuck). Aszok is pretty good. Let's just make sure
that the
GI's stay away from the "Hazi palinka" otherwise we're in trouble. There's also
the cheap "buzz"
"maszek bor" being produced by nearly everyone. 200HuF for 5 liters of wine??
Very economical, if you like the taste of plastic in your wine, since they are
sold in 5liter gasoline type cans, but since they are soldiers, they can handle
anything, even double price alcohol, which would come out to be the same as
prices in night clubs here, as far as Hungarian alcohol is concerned. You can't
beat 60HuF for 500ml of Borsodi (or 120HuF, if it was doubled). Now imported
beers and such are already way out of the stratosphere ( even for us
Americans). 400-500HuF for 3cl of Johnny Walker Red or Jack Daniels (I'm
speaking on a Debrecen price level, remember. Pest would be 1 and a half times
more.)?? Ouch!!!! 350HuF for a pint of Guiness. So, someone tell the boys in
Taszar to go for the cheap "buzz" and to read the price list and count their
money, unlike our friend Darren Purcell who was short-changed by some Hungarian
who took advantage of him (like it wouldn't happen in the States to any
foriegner), because he drank, too, much "good" Pecsi sor. If it was that good,
you wouldn't be complaining about paying double for this Hungarian brewing
masterpiece, would you???  ;-P

Cheers & Egeszsegedre,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Re: Joe Szalai and Clinton Election (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szalai in response to Stowe

>
> However, I still have a fair idea of what is happening in the US, and I
> understand American foreign policy.  I just usually don't agree with it.
> You have steadfastly insisted that the American GIs are going to Bosnia to
> stop the killing.  I hope they will!  However, I think they're going to
> Bosnia to help Clinton get re-elected.  How can I say something so skeptical
> and outrageous?  Well, consider this.  In Congress, the Republicans were
> assured that the GIs would be home in one year.  And what's happening in one
> year?  You got it.  It's election time.


Joe, I agreed with much that you had to say, up to a point. Remember,
Bush's liberation of Kuwait was to remind AMerica that it was the 'power'
of the world, and that failed to get him re=elected. If I honestly
thought that Clinton was going to use this as a ploy, I would. But recent
evidence show that the American public will not vote for a president just
because of troop deployments in other countries. We had troops in Kuwait
whenBush lost.

Perhaps I am just being naive, but the Clinton administration will not
really rack up points with an electorate that is more concerned about
home issues by sending troops to Bosnia.

Darren Purcell
+ - Re: GIs in Taszar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Hungary is under license to produce those. By far the nastiest beer produced
 is
> Amstel. I'm partial to Kobanyi Vilagos, though it's hard to get as you head t
o
> Hajdu-Bihar
> megye, where Borsodi is king (yuck). Aszok is pretty good. Let's just make
 sure
> that the
> GI's stay away from the "Hazi palinka" otherwise we're in trouble. There's
 also
> the cheap "buzz"

But I thought the stuff was great (NOT!)

> "maszek bor" being produced by nearly everyone. 200HuF for 5 liters of wine??
> Very economical, if you like the taste of plastic in your wine, since they ar
e
> sold in 5liter gasoline type cans, but since they are soldiers, they can
 handle
> anything, even double price alcohol, which would come out to be the same as
> prices in night clubs here, as far as Hungarian alcohol is concerned. You
 can't
> beat 60HuF for 500ml of Borsodi (or 120HuF, if it was doubled). Now imported
> beers and such are already way out of the stratosphere ( even for us
> Americans). 400-500HuF for 3cl of Johnny Walker Red or Jack Daniels (I'm
> speaking on a Debrecen price level, remember. Pest would be 1 and a half time
s
> more.)?? Ouch!!!! 350HuF for a pint of Guiness. So, someone tell the boys in
> Taszar to go for the cheap "buzz" and to read the price list and count their
> money, unlike our friend Darren Purcell who was short-changed by some
 Hungarian
> who took advantage of him (like it wouldn't happen in the States to any
> foriegner), because he drank, too, much "good" Pecsi sor. If it was that good
,
> you wouldn't be complaining about paying double for this Hungarian brewing
> masterpiece, would you???  ;-P
>
> Cheers & Egeszsegedre,
> Czifra Jancsi
> john_czifra @ shi.com
>

Jancsi Bacsi, that was in 1992, when I deserved to get taken because I
was not quite so diligent in studying Magyar. 1994-95 was a different
story all together. A little Magyar in the videk can insure you don't pay
for any wine. By the way, Szalon sor, made in Pecs, is not that bad. But
then, since I did not drink much until I went to Hungary in 92, my tastes
are much mroe toward wine. I mean that complaint about doubled prices in
partial jest, only one place ever did that to me, and didn't after I
became a regular with Hungarian students .

Darren
+ - To everyone who is on the list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To who ever reads this letter.  There are a lot of subjects that are great on
this listserv but I have had no time to even read any of these messages.  To
everyone who is out there....Do you have trouble trying to keep up with all of
these messages?

I have been!  Has anyone of you?

Take it easy,

Jeremy
+ - Re: List Behavior/Hungarian Defamation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hugh Agnew ) wrote:
: Dear fellow-listmembers:
:
: This morning, prompted by Mr. Kiss Janos's most recent "contribution" to
: the list, I have reluctantly taken the step of setting the list parameters
: so that only subscribers through the LISTSERV at GWU can post to the list.
: Should Mr. Kiss wish to subscribe, he may do so after three months have
: passed (I will monitor the list of subscribers); but should his posts
: remain fundamentally unchanged, he will again be deleted.
:
: I say reluctantly, because this decision will involve me more directly
: in controlling access to the list.  I don't want to inhibit the free flow
: of thought and argument, and we have all been given examples of several
: contributors' talents for sarcasm:  let me just ask once again, please,
: try to keep it within certain bounds of decency and rationality.

for what it's worth, i think you should reconsider. as long as there is
no legal impediment -- such as your becoming liable and open to civil
suit or prosecution for publishing and/or transmitting material -- you
do yourself and you institution far more good than harm by being a
champion of unhindered exchange of views, no matter how odious these
views may be to you.

while you, as owner of the list are entitled to do as you choose, there
is, in my opinion, an ethical responsibility to bear in mind which is
currently sorely tested. i appreciate your dilemma but urge you to
reconsider.

d.a.
+ - Re: To everyone who is on the list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> MEYER JEREMY R > wrote...

> ....Do you have trouble trying to keep up with all of these messages?

Yes, but it is usually better than no traffic at all! ;-)

    GarryC.

############################################################################
# Better a dry crust                    # Internet:        #
# with peace and quiet,                 # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
# than a house full of feasting,        # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd     Marton #
# with strife.           Proverbs 17:1  # New Zealand   Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
############################################################################
+ - Re: Information on Budapest Hotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Alex,
 Thank You for the information on the hotels.

We appreciate it.

Sincerely

Christine Gergely

According to Alexander Berendi:
>
> Gellert is the undisputed choice.  Roght on the bank of the river Danube this
> gem of a hotel also contains a complete Turkish bath, perhaps the best is
> Budapest.  Hotel Erzsebet is nothing like that but it isn't a "real bad
> hotel" either.
>
> Good  luck
>
> Alex
>
+ - Response to Darren Purcell (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Darren Purcell wrote:

>Joe, I agreed with much that you had to say, up to a point. Remember,
>Bush's liberation of Kuwait was to remind AMerica that it was the 'power'
>of the world, and that failed to get him re=elected. If I honestly
>thought that Clinton was going to use this as a ploy, I would. But recent
>evidence show that the American public will not vote for a president just
>because of troop deployments in other countries. We had troops in Kuwait
>whenBush lost.

Bush peaked too soon.  His popularity was in the eighties after the war in
the gulf.  The election was still many monthe away.  The danger for
Clinton's re-election is that he may not peak at all.  Americans being
killed in Bosnia will become a home issue.

Joe Szalai
+ - 9th century history of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello all,
I've been browsing the list and wonder if anyone can give me the names
of secondary works in English which deal with Hungary during the so
called "dark ages". I'd like to find out more on the Avars and the
Magyars in Hungary -- I would especially like to see illustrated works
which show artifacts from museums or archaeological sites if possible.
                                        Thank You
                                         Paul Gregor
                                          
+ - Response to Garry Collins (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Garry Collins wrote:

>However the jury is still out and it will be several years yet before we
>will know how successful this experiment in social engineering has been. It
>may work, but so far the cost to individual people has been high!

Thanks for this Garry.  That's the sense I got when I was in Budapest the
last time.  There is still an image of an old woman that haunts me when I
think of my last visit.  It was a very hot July day.  My partner and I just
got off a tram at Moscow square.  We were going into the Metro to catch a
train.  Outside the entrence, and in the blazing sun, there was a short,
frail old woman.  She was selling flowers.  But she only had the flowers
that were in her hand.  It was just a small posy.   I noticed her because
she was so old.  She was likely in her eighties.  As I entered the Metro
station I noticed that she was also blind.  Three hours later we were back
at Moscow square.  My heart just sank when I noticed that the old woman was
still trying to sell the same flowers.  This was in 1990.  Freedom had just
arrived in Hungary.  The reason this image upset me so much is that on
previous visits, when Hungary was still 'socialist', I didn't see such
things.  I assumed this woman was not benifiting from the changes.  I wanted
to find out who was.

Joe Szalai

ps   I am not a religious person but I do like your proverb.
+ - Vinyards of Tokaj wine tasting. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Come celebrate the King of wines and the Wine of Kings.

  The board of directors of Westwind International Folk Ensemble invites
you to toast the holiday season with a gala wine tasting featuring the
grand wines of Tokaj, Hungary.
  The event is being held at the Berkeley City Club.
  2315 Durant Ave
  Berkeley, Ca

When: Saturday, December 16, 1995
Time:   4-7 PM

Early reservations are recommended, Tickets: $25 in advance, $28 at the
door.
(charge or check)

This event will feature live Hungarian music and featuring the following
wines
of the Tokaj region.

4 Puttonyos Aszu 1988,  5 Puttonyos Aszu 1988, Forditas 1990,
Furmint 1994, Harslevelu-Late harvest 1993 & Muskotaly-Late harvest 1993.


For further info, please phone (510) 527-2491
+ - Re: anti-American?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant wrote:

> >
>
> And if you know, that the second doctor's potion is harmful, too,
> from your experience, as you've tried it once,
> shouldn't you give up old, poisonous medicines? Or at least
> be a bit suspicious?      Hungary  was not more dead
> from it's "socialism", than a lot of other countries from
> capitalism  see: Haiti, Columbia, etc.
> 
>

No, the problems in places like Haiti and Colombia are not due to
'capitalism', but a lack thereof.  What prevails in most Latin American
countries is a type of feudalism.  Corruption is at the core of the
system, and the interests of the wealthy landowners (not the
'capitalists') carry most weight.  Capitalists, or people who believe in
liberal democracy also believe in rule of law.  This does not exist in
most developing countries, and it existed even to a lesser extent in
socialist countries like USSR, Hungary, etc.


You are making the same mistake that Marx made, by grouping the aristocracy
and the bourgeois into one class (or two classes with similar
interests).  Indeed they had and have very different interests.  The
aristocracy wanted the state to protect their interests, the interests of
the landed nobility.  The bourgeois were bothersome to the aristocracy,
because they favoured liberal policies (liberal in the classical sense of
the word) such as free trade and equality under the law.

The problem in most developing countries is not that some sort of wild
capitalism exists, but that the market is stifled by massive
bureaucracies, corruption, and special interests.  This is not
capitalism.  This is feudalism.

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