Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 765
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-08-21
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 ??? Clogged Arteries ??? (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
2 The bloody footprints of the commissar (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: America Online (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
5 Civitan Club in Hungary (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: English language and other goodies - (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
15 Hungarian Lotto (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Sophistry (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
21 Toronto. (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Sophistry (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Toronto. (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
30 Jokes. (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Sophistry (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: The bloody footprints of the commissar (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
40 Sour cream (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: German Army (mind)  122 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: German Army (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
45 -No Subject- (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: Bloody footprints of the Commissar (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)

+ - ??? Clogged Arteries ??? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello, my name is Mary and this is probably off topic but because heart
disease is the number one killer especially of men, I thought some of you
might be able to use this information.  If you have clogged arteries or
are concerned about buildup in your arteries and would like some FREE
information on a inexpensive, all natural way to clean out up to 85% of
artery buildup, rather than having by-pass surgery or coronary balloon
angioplasty, send your name and E-mail address to .  Please
specify "clogged arteries" and I will send you some medical documentation
and a picture showing how effective this is.  The best part is that it
works regardless of diet or lifestyle.  You can then SEE and read about it
for yourself.

Thank you
Mary
+ - The bloody footprints of the commissar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 17 Aug Eva Balogh wrote Re: On Lukacs

<...I find it rather interesting that people who would certainly
<find military action against the Romanians appealing find Lukacs's
<decision inexcusable....
<

In passing judgement on Lukacs' actions while serving Bela Kun, it
is worthwhile to consider two facts:

(1) At the height of the Second World War, 8,266,373 served in the
    US Armed Forces. To my knowledge, only a single US soldier was
    executed for "cowardice". Posthumously, this private became a
    celebrity.

(2) During his brief tenure as commissar, according to sources already
    cited, Lukacs had eight of his countrymen executed for alleged
    cowardice.

Lukacs is not faulted for fighting for his country against the Romanian
invaders, but for his inexcusable behavior as commander. Of course,
those who allied themselves with the perpetrators of the Red Terror were
not known for their humanitarianism.


CSABA K. ZOLTANI
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 16:41 19/08/96 -0700, Eva B. in response to Joe Szalai:
>At 02:43 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>The French have a cultural superiority complex?  Really?  If someone asked
>>me, who in the world has a cultural superiority complex,  I would, without
>>hesitation, say the Hungarians.  If you don't believe me, just listen to
>>Hungarians talk about food, music, medicine, math, and sports.
>
>        Often superiority complex actually comes from feeling of
>inferiority. But, before we get to this bit of psychoanalysis, let's talk
>about the French and their superiority complex.

I can attest to the superiority complex of the French. And in there case, it
is not a mask for actually feeling inferior!

<mucho snippo>
>
>        As for the Hungarians' superiority complex! Well, it sounds like
>superiority complex but is it possible that all that bragging originates
>with a huge dose of inferiority complex?

>Eva Balogh

Of course, the Hungarians should feel superior, because they are superior!
But, they have also been historically misunderstood and maybe underestimated
by Americans, which may give rise to some of those feelings of inferiority
that you spoke of, Eva. Hungarians as a people - of whatever ethnic
extraction tend to be more than ordinarily intelligent - many akin to genius
- but with that acute intelligence comes acute awareness and thus sometimes
acute unhappiness - but also joy, passion, love and all those good things, too.

Just my two fillers worth.

Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: America Online (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>, "Peter
A. Soltesz" > writes:

>3- Steve Case was reading his latest net-worth statement and began
>clapping. He forgot that the AOL server was turned on and off by //The
>Clapper//.

One of the most surreal moments in recent television news coverage came
the night after the chipmunks powering AOL went on strike. Instead of
coming out and facing the cameras to explain what had happened to his
service, Steve Case's disembodied voice could be heard issuing forth on
the ABC Evening News via a conference call. Let's hope Mr. Case and
Clifford Irving do not run athwart of one another anytime soon. Come to
think of it, has anyone ever seen Steve Case and the late Elvis Presley in
the same room at the same time? Think about it, folks.
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Civitan Club in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If any of you have direct experience of the Civitan Club in Hungary, I
would appreciate it if you'd e-mail me privately in the next day or so.
The club was first organized in Budapest in 1991 and I understand it has
been very active since. I need some information for an article I'm
writing. Thanks.
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Re: English language and other goodies - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Pope Joe Szalai
the >A Pontiff Deep-Fried and
Sanctified in the Healing Blood of the Lamb, didst ecyclificate:

>Well then, you know what the Pope wants YOU to
>kiss.
>
>Joe Szalai

You always refer to yourself in the third person, Your Holiness? You
wouldn't happen to actually be Deion Sanders, would you?
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:22 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>At 02:43 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>The French have a cultural superiority complex?  Really?  If someone asked
>>me, who in the world has a cultural superiority complex,  I would, without
>>hesitation, say the Hungarians.  If you don't believe me, just listen to
>>Hungarians talk about food, music, medicine, math, and sports.
>
>Well, there are many nations whose representatives I have not met yet, but
>those that I have all fit the above described mold. Just listen to them talk
>about food. etc.

Exactly!  And that raises the serious question of how it is possible to
conclude that France is a special case.  How is France's cultural
superiority complex different from other nations.  I don't see it.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony says:
Would this US stand represent the ascendancy of Romanian political lobbies
in Washington or the decline of Hungarian influence, whatever there is ?
It is also interesting to note that this came after a time of concentrated
lobbying effort by the Hungarian Lobby.

        Well George you are probably right. The Romanian influence in
Washington has certainly increased. Even "our own" Congressman Lantos
has yielded on topics of MFN status to Romania without the neccessary
caveats about Hungarian and other minority issues within its borders.

May I suggest that one of the reasons(and I am sure that there are many
others) is that Hungarians keep being dis-organized and fight amongst
themselves to be effective.

BTW- is everyone noticing that Hungary has now lost its lead in
western investments...it is now Czech, Slovakia, Poland. What happened???

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Aug 20,  9:22am, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Subject: Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations
>
> Washington has certainly increased. Even "our own" Congressman Lantos
> has yielded on topics of MFN status to Romania without the neccessary
> caveats about Hungarian and other minority issues within its borders.
>
> Peter Soltesz
>-- End of excerpt from Peter A. Soltesz

    May I remind you all that Representative Lantos is a US Cogress-
    man and not a representative of  the Hungarian Government or the
    Hungarian Lobby? What is this  'even "our own" '  nonsense?  Get
    real, will you!
                     Amos
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:

> Partly out of genuine puzzlement, partly to introduce a serious Hungarian
> topic to HUNGARY in addition to the FORUM-style sanctimonious gaybashing/
> Jewbashing/mudslinging that is infesting HUNGARY:

Well my only contribution can be additional bashing, that is of the US Dept.
of State. I have never experienced any savy at State regarding Eastern
Europe, but the last four years took that quantity below a miner frog's ass.
There were never as many incompetents in State as at this time.

> Would anybody know about the background of the US Government's stand that
> has effectively pulled the rug from under the Hungarian Government's
> negotiating position with the Romanian Government re the Basic Treaty
> between the two countries ?

> All there was in newswires is a shorty about the US Government stating
> its stand that cultural/linguistic autonomy is all that ethnic minorities
> can aim for in Central-Eastern Europe and not adminitstrative/regional
> autonomy.

As far as I know this is a fallout from State's Russian policy vis a vis
Chechenia. In my opinion, the policy is bad even for the Russian case and
broadening its application to other areas will not make it right for
the Russian policy either.


> This was contrary to the Hungarian position and supportive of the
> Romanian and Slovak stands.  Following this statement, the Hungarian
> Government was forced to abandon its demand for regional autonomy for
> Hungarians in Romania to be included in the Basic Treaty and will now have
> to settle for the Romanian/Slovak interpretation of the Council of Europe
> Recommendation No. 1201.  It also represents an intervention into the
> disputes Hungary with Romania and Slovakia that the European-Union
> countries have avoided doing and can be seen as contrary to the
> unrestricted interpretation of Recommendation 1201.

The Hungarian Lobby is mainly aimed at Congress, which may have some long
term implication but it has very little to do with short term policy. After
seeing the disastrous consequences of the meltdown of Yugoslavia, the major
policy of State is to maintain status quo, which, unfortunately, can result
in holding down lids on boiling pots.


> Would this US stand represent the ascendancy of Romanian political lobbies
> in Washington or the decline of Hungarian influence, whatever there is ?
> It is also interesting to note that this came after a time of concentrated
> lobbying effort by the Hungarian Lobby.

As stated above, I do not think that the policy is a result of relative lobby
strengths. Please remember that these guys are the same ilk who supported
Ceaucescu because he was showing "independence" from the Soviets.

For those who think that I do get into controversial issues, my opinion
regarding Transylvania is not a Hungarian autonomy, but as much local control
for local issues as possible. If a foreign power would force a settlement
(either way) it would only delay any possible solution to the
nationality problem. For an example from other locations, I sort of like the
South Tyrol solution.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> May I suggest that one of the reasons(and I am sure that there are many
> others) is that Hungarians keep being dis-organized and fight amongst
> themselves to be effective.
 A prime example of which is the attacks on Lantos by those Hungarians (I
do not mean Peter here, but that loud lot that's been doing it for at
least several months now - even going as far as launching from Hungary an
un-seating campaign against the US congressman, and absurd move if there
was ever one) who have this surefire test for being un-Hungarian: anyone
disagreeing with their particular opinion on an issue is a traitor ;-<.
 It's unlikely that the US could've been persuaded not to grant MFN to
Romania, when even countries like China get it. Moreover it's a
respectable view that economical blackmail (which the withdrawal of MFN
status is) would not necesseraly be the best way to bring a country into
the fold - particularly when their nationalist leadership's rallying cause
is the big bad world being against them...

 As per George's original question it appears to me more like a
manifestation of the USA lacking a grasp of ethnic minority issues
combined with their default 'don't rock the boat' attitude about faraway
places, rather than a specific drift toward Romanians from Hungarians.

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Johanna,

Thanks for asking about the Hungarian eggs.  I couldn't respond sooner, because
I was not in the office on Monday, and now I have tons of backwork.  There are
other postings I plan to respond to later (tomorrow?), but now for the eggs:

Ukrainians seem to have a monopoly of the egg world, but Hungarian traditions
are equally rich.

Much of Eastern/Central Europe was originally pagan.  The people enjoyed nature
and the world around them. They saw the power in nature and felt the egg repre-
sented its life force and the idea of Spring and rebirth.  Therefore, egg
painting is not just a Ukrainian thing,... many nations have contributed.
These eggs were made as talismans (talismen?) with symbols written on them in
wax to ask for rain, good harvests, protection from fire...  The symbols and
their arrangement was extremely important for their "effectiveness" and was
passed down from generation to generation in each family.

In the northern areas and around Esztergom eggs are dyed in natural dyes (onion
skins, teas, carrot tops, beets) and then scratched with a knife or sharp ob-
ject.  This scratching brings out the original white of the eggshell, thus
creating (usually) a dichromatic design between the dyed egg and the scratched
shell.  In Hungary it is interesting that the scratch method for eggs is more
common among MEN.

The wax-resist method is what is popular among the Ukrainians, Hutzul designs
are particularly intricate and often with a brown/yellow theme.  Other areas
L'viv, Kolomiya (the art town), Chernivtsi... also have fairly detailed eggs
with varying colors.

Hungary has such an incredibly wide variety of egg techniques.  The wax-resist
method is found in Central and southern Hungary...and in Erdhely.  What makes
Hungarian eggs so special is their simplicity.  They go straight for the sym-
bolism and ignore other embellishments.  In Erdhely, they are usually white and
red on a black background.  Other areas in Hungary represent the fecundity of
nature of the shell by writing (it's called writing, because the wax tool is a
wax-pen) fanciful, blooming flowers wrapping themselves over the entire surface
of the egg in utter chaos and asymmetry. Among Hungarian eggs, the drop-pull
method found among the Rusyn' and parts of Western Ukraine seems to be the only
style that is ignored.

Eggs can last for years.  In our family we have some that are well over 45 yrs
old and still looking fine.  They are hung in homes and barns. In Suceava, Ro-
mania I even found one in an outhouse!  Some are even buried under beehives and
at the corners of fields to ensure producitivity....

Romania is a great contributor to the egg world, too.  In the north you find
the Hungarian and Ukrainian traditions, but they also have eggs where they
keep the wax on the white shell and eggs made of wood or wax and have colored
beads applied to their surface.  The beaded eggs as a little too kitsch for my
tastes, though.

Many stories abound about the origins of egg painting (eg: how the methood of
decortating them started).  Some feel it started by the practice of coating
 eggswith wax to protect them from rotting and to store them for the winter.
 There'sa good book I can recommend you trying to find.  I got it in Hungary in
 '93.
I'll confirm this tomorrow, but I think it is by Molna'r Erzsbetne' e's a
ko:nyv neve : A vara'zsszereju" hi'mes toja's.

If I didn't touch all bases for you, let me know.  I'm glad to help.
- Mark
+ - Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark...
I understand that there are two types of eggs....one (i think mostly
used) is empty (without the yolk....extracted via a small hole, while the
other
has the egg cooked till it is really hard) which ones are beter and why??
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko says:
For those who think that I do get into controversial issues, my opinion
regarding Transylvania is not a Hungarian autonomy, but as much local control
for local issues as possible. If a foreign power would force a settlement
(either way) it would only delay any possible solution to the
nationality problem. For an example from other locations, I sort of like the
South Tyrol solution.

Regards,Jeliko.
<<<
I agree. One must also try ot define (globally) the difference between
a Nation and a State. In my view, a State is a physical boundary, while a
Nation is a people who whish to associate with each other (whether it is
cultural, language, history, race.....whatever they define)

What we need to do and was done successfully in Switzerland, Spain
(Catlonia),
etc. this is the form we ned for Hungarians in the surrounding countries.
Else, the problem will not go away, and either the HUngarians will be
completely absorbed/exterminated or there will be war (eventually).

Peter Soltesz
+ - Hungarian Lotto (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have spent a very nice and charming long weekend at the Balaton  and used
the opportunity ro play the Hungarian Lotto. (6 from 45)

Could anybody please provide me the results of the drawing of
Aug. 17th 1996.


Thank you very much

Greetings from Vienna

H. Spies
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Another comment on Zoli's comment:

I agree that it does not make sense for Hungarians (where ever they are)
to try to "depose" Lantos. If We (that is the collective royal WE)
really acted together, then one man (Lantos) could not have gotten
the MFN status. The REAL problem is that in the USA the congressmen
have little knowledge of Hungarians (history, problems, ethnics...etc.)

It is this latter problem that WE have not managed to improve here in the
states. I am not quite sure how I feel about MFN for China.
We all know that they have many "problems". Perhaps it is the current
administration that is helpless. Maybe it is easier to play with a bully
on the
street, than to have him take your ball???
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It is not non-sense to expect that a congressman of Hungarian ancestry
would try to assure that the Hungarian minorities in Romania, etc.
are treated properly. That is what I meant by one of our own.

In fact if you monitored the issues you would have found that
for quite a while Lantos was agains MFN status and after a visit
to Romania (official visit) he turned on a dime! Perhaps that is
what everyone is to expect from a politician???


On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Amos J. Danube wrote:

> On Aug 20,  9:22am, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> > Subject: Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations
> >
> > Washington has certainly increased. Even "our own" Congressman Lantos
> > has yielded on topics of MFN status to Romania without the neccessary
> > caveats about Hungarian and other minority issues within its borders.
> >
> > Peter Soltesz
> >-- End of excerpt from Peter A. Soltesz
>
>     May I remind you all that Representative Lantos is a US Cogress-
>     man and not a representative of  the Hungarian Government or the
>     Hungarian Lobby? What is this  'even "our own" '  nonsense?  Get
>     real, will you!
>                      Amos
>
+ - Re: Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:40 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>Joe, I think we agree in principle on this. All I am trying to say is that I
>prefer people joking about gas chambers to people building them.

Yes, we agree in principle, although, for the life of me, I don't see how
anything to do with gas chambers could be seen as harmless joking.  It
wouldn't even qualify as black (as in, morbid) humour.

>>Telling a racist, sexist, or otherwise offensive joke is a little bit like
>>rape.  Rape is about power, not sex.  A racist, etc., joke is about
>>elevating the status of the teller.  It's not about humour.
>
>Comparing a joke with rape sounds to me as exaggerated as those feminists
>who call any kind of sex rape.

I didn't compare jokes with rape, and I certainly didn't say that all jokes
were offensive.  You just don't understand my point above.  And far be it
for me to say, or even hint, that any kind of sex is rape.  Sex is sex.
Rape is not sex.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>We allow people personal failure.  And if their ideological excess
doesn't
>cost you an inordinate amount of money, then why not allow them that?
>Where's your liberalism, Sam?  If ideological excess leads to personal
>failure, then, so be it.  The US is a free society, no?
>
>Joe Szalai

Because ideological failure's results are usually spread over the entire
society, not on a person-by-person basis according to whether you
subscribe to it or not.
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Sam, you tried to make fun of Heidegger's views on the technology
>without mentioning any part of his views whatsoever. I feel bad
>about you for this, so I try to put this whole issue in a more
>edible context.
>
>

I didn't make fun of Heidegger's views on technology. I'm actually
interested in Heidegger's views on technology, just as I'm interested in
Dewey's views on instrumentalism for much the same academic reason. And
you can post all the stuff you want, but it doesn't obscure the fact that
you really don't have the first clue what Heidegger is about. Your big
post boils down to a one- or two-sentence broadbrush of Heidegger's essay
"The Question Concerning Technology." Why not read the primary source? The
essay takes no more than half an hour or so to read. And when discussing
the nature of technology, why not take off from a more current analysis
such as Langdon Winner's or Carl Mitcham's? Neither Heidegger nor Ellul is
particularly cutting edge in philosophy of science these days
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

As far as my personal recollection goes,the Quebec french people were in the
hands of the Church.The premier of Quebec was Mrs Dupuis,and evrithing was
against the schooling of the freench youth.Evry famiyly's desire was to have
at least one Son as a priest.
This basicaly change with the 67 world fair,when Quebecers found out what
they can accomplish themselves.They are also well avare the the France
french don't realy like them,since the Qubecois french is quite
different.Only the France politicians are sympatetic to the Separation of
Quebec,since this way they could
win something against England and the States.They wouldn't win anithing,but
disturbing a Country.
If I made some mistakes maybe Peter Hidas could give some more information,sinc
e
I am not a historian,but only a spectator.
Andy.
+ - Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr. Soltesz,

Eggs have pores that constantly breathe whether they are varnished, waxed or
boiled.  That is why eggs dry up after a few months.

With scratched eggs:

Boiled eggs are bad, but it is the way most decorators of the scratched eggs (a
s
described earlier) dye the eggs.  They must boil them in the dyes then
scratch on the egg's shell.  This is extremely difficult if the egg is blown.
Note: The egg does not necessarily have to be boiled, some people also just
let them sit in the dyes.  Many people, however, traditionally boil them.

This constant breathing by the egg's shell is bad for the egg design.  You see,
when you boil the egg, water enters the shell.. and you NEVER know when it will
come back out through the pores again and ruin the design.  Tomorrow, next
 week... next year.  There are, however, a few skilled people who scratch on ra
w
 eggs then in the end blow the egg out.

With waxed eggs:

When working with the wax eggs, raw uncooked eggs are the best because the
natural oils of the shell have not been disturbed.  These eggs can be blown
before or after the painting process and they have no fear of water coming
from inside the egg and ruining the design.

I also have some old blown eggs, but some of them were sensitive of the
atmosphere and sometimes exploded because of thunder during a thunderstorm.
If people have boiled eggs, it's recommended to keep them out of direct sun-
light ( like all eggs ) and make sure they are in a place where the air is
circulating.  (Closed curio cabinets are not always good.) My oldest blown egg
is 22 yrs old.  It is from northern Poland.  It has dried inside, and the con-
tents now are like a tiny ball.

Raw eggs in general:

Also, raw eggs dry nicely if you turn them once in a while to ensure they do no
t
all dry unevenly on one side.  If they are keep out of direct sunlight and in
a place with fresh air, they can also last for years.  They are my family's
heirlooms.  We keep many of them in a cool basement.  With these eggs, the egg
white turns into dust, and the yolk becomes hard like an amber marble.

Eggs were traditionally decorated to enjoy the live forces in nature, therefore
,
some people, like me, used to really be disgusted when we saw blown eggs. It
was like seeing an egg carcass.  You know, "Why did you decorate the egg to
appreciate its shape... simply to destroy it by putting some holes in it!
 However, I now realize that this is more practical for our modern world.  We
move more often, paint simply to express creative feelings and a blown egg is
easier for me when I move, when I ship the eggs, and it is less worry to store.
Therefore, now it would be hard to get me to return to writing raw eggs.  So,
I am glad I had an open enough mind to accept this new practice, because its
helped a lot.

Thanks for the question,
Mark
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter Soltesz wrote:

> It would be nice if mankind could figure out that we all, regardless of ethni
c
> color, race, religion basically put on our pants the same way, etc. after all
> we are made of the same thing.  Lots of people in the States and Canada say
> that we are (or should be equal... that is wrong.  Some are given more in one
> thing than others yet no one is perfect. We have equal protection under the
> law, but not in other things.

I agree with much of the above.  Mr. Soltesz, how can you write such positive
statements about equality yet totally contradict yourself when it comes to gay
people? Do they put they pants and dress and uniforms on differently than other
people????  Unfortunately, not everybody does have equal protection under the
law in many places; that is why many issues are being adressed.

Why can't you take a hate story against Hungarians and replace the word "Hun-
garian" with the word "gay."  When is it o.k. generally hate?  Like Joe Szalai
said, why does something have to be written by someone else for it to be ac-
ceptable?  I wonder how much advancement we all would have made if we kept on
looking backwards instead of trying to strive ahead.  Anyway, a strict Buddhist
sees both hetero- and homosexuality as being "bad" or unnecessary bec. neither
lead you away from this emotional Earth and on to a higher level.  There are a
lot of historical documents regarding sailor's encoutering sea-monsters and
falling off the Earth, but I don't think that makes it true.  I, yes, I was
never mentioned or recognized by any documents or in earlier civilizations, yet
I exist just the same.

Yes, many people need churches, but they shouldn't ram them down the throats of
those who don't!  It's like a cripple being jealous of others who walk w/ their
own legs so they try to hit the healthy walkers with their crutches and make
them cripple too!

Mr. Soltesz, what do you mean: "Yet the truth always wins in the end."?  Has th
e
world already ended???  For me, the world is more like a never-ending circle of
change... often for the better.  Where's the end?

(Your message on God's Tenure was funny.)

I'll end this message. Your egg message just appeared on the list, so I'll read
that.

Thanks
- Mark
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Sam, let me put it this way: If Heidegger for you is
>a Bavarian peasant, then you are below the level of
>a karakoszorcsogi paraszt. Clear now?       (Sz.Z.)
>
>This shows above average intelligence.Andy.
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:28 PM 8/20/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

<snip>
>All there was in newswires is a shorty about the US Government stating
>its stand that cultural/linguistic autonomy is all that ethnic minorities
>can aim for in Central-Eastern Europe and not adminitstrative/regional
>autonomy.
>
>This was contrary to the Hungarian position and supportive of the
>Romanian and Slovak stands.  Following this statement, the Hungarian
>Government was forced to abandon its demand for regional autonomy for
>Hungarians in Romania to be included in the Basic Treaty and will now have
>to settle for the Romanian/Slovak interpretation of the Council of Europe
>Recommendation No. 1201.  It also represents an intervention into the
>disputes Hungary with Romania and Slovakia that the European-Union
>countries have avoided doing and can be seen as contrary to the
>unrestricted interpretation of Recommendation 1201.

I don't know anything about the Council of Europe Recommendaton No. 1201,
nor about the government negotiations, but here's my two cents worth anyway.

The Romanian/Slovak interpretation shouldn't be dismissed.  If that becomes
'the' interpretation, it should be enforced.  The idea that a minority
ethnic group within a state can legally have cultural and linguistic
autonomy is nothing to be sneezed at.  If enforced, it would ensure the
survival of Magyar in Romania and Slovakia.  The Magyars in Slovakia and
Romania would resemble, to some extent, the Quebecois in Canada.  And they
know that nationhood, or more autonomy, is not entirely out of the question.
And the Quebecois don't even have a neighbouring country supporting or
encouraging their demand for regional autonomy.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andy wrote:
If I made some mistakes maybe Peter Hidas could give some more
information,since
I am not a historian,but only a spectator.

I am also a spectator and a victim as well. My children and grandchildren are
on their way to a more promising land - Ontario. Quebec will leave Canada
regardless of the cost of separation. The French-Canadian elite will benefit,
they will obtain full control of their land. I estimate the cost at 20% in
decline in living-standard. Remember, Quebec is a rich province and can
cope with independence far better than let's say Slovakia. After a few
angry years business will be as usual. The farmers and unionized workers
will suffer the most, but by the time they will realize that it will be
too late.
The above is an original chrystal ball statement.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
+ - Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark:
Thanx for your nice explanation.
Peter
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:12 AM 8/20/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

> writes:
>
>>We allow people personal failure.  And if their ideological excess
>doesn't
>>cost you an inordinate amount of money, then why not allow them that?
>>Where's your liberalism, Sam?  If ideological excess leads to personal
>>failure, then, so be it.  The US is a free society, no?
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Because ideological failure's results are usually spread over the entire
>society, not on a person-by-person basis according to whether you
>subscribe to it or not.
>Sam Stowe

I think you've watched the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", too often, Sam.
Give your head a shake.  People teaching and learning Spanish in the United
States is not a cancer on the body politic.  It does not spread.  It is not
contagion.

Sure.  You can think it's wrong, and you can think they're making a mistake.
But so what?  They're adults and they're not breaking any laws.  And you did
say that you were against language laws, didn't you?

Joe Szalai

P.S. E pluribus unum, Sam.  E pluribus unum.
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>George Antony wrote:
> > All there was in newswires is a shorty about the US Government stating
> > its stand that cultural/linguistic autonomy is all that ethnic minorities
> > can aim for in Central-Eastern Europe and not adminitstrative/regional
> > autonomy.

Jeliko wrote:
> As far as I know this is a fallout from State's Russian policy vis a vis
> Chechenia. In my opinion, the policy is bad even for the Russian case and
> broadening its application to other areas will not make it right for
> the Russian policy either.

THe same line was followed originally vis-a-vis pre-breakup Yugoslavia.
Is the US State Department under the influence of the British Foreign
Office, or is it following the Neville Chamberlain School of International
Diplomacy independently ?

> The Hungarian Lobby is mainly aimed at Congress, which may have some long
> term implication but it has very little to do with short term policy. After
> seeing the disastrous consequences of the meltdown of Yugoslavia, the major
> policy of State is to maintain status quo, which, unfortunately, can result
> in holding down lids on boiling pots.

How ironic, as the US stand for the preservation of old Yugoslavia was the
immediate contributing factor for starting the war.

> For those who think that I do get into controversial issues, my opinion
> regarding Transylvania is not a Hungarian autonomy, but as much local control
> for local issues as possible. If a foreign power would force a settlement
> (either way) it would only delay any possible solution to the
> nationality problem. For an example from other locations, I sort of like the
> South Tyrol solution.

There must by two of us then.  I have been trying to wave the example of
South Tyrol on different discussion groups for years now, without much
reaction at all.

The main problem is that the Slovak and Romanian political line is much
influenced by paranoia about Hungarians and Hungary.  It is perceived that
if minority Hungarians are given an inch they will want a mile next - which
is of course conveniently reinforced by the revitalized revisionist noise
in Hungary.  In contrast, the Italian government was confident enough to
be generous with its German speakers.

George Antony
+ - Jokes. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I don't know wich category this belongs to:what is the difference beetween a
condom and a casket?One is for comming the other for going.
Andy.
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:39 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>The following poem (I put here in some PARTS) is very typical
>about the handling of Heidegger and his philosophy, directly
>connecting child murder by the Nazis in 1943 in Terezin,
>Czechslovakia to him and his philosophy, and calling him
>'small' because of that.
>
>(Now, you show me similar poem about Lukacs and the GULAG??)
>
>                                                    Sz. Zoli
>
>A poem by Maria Bonn

        whoever Maria Bonn is. Because my taste in poetry stopped somewhere
with Attila Jozsef and decidedly remained with the Hungarian language I am
not sure whether I am the one who should answer this post. However, after
reading this poem several times, I came to the conclusion that the poem is
"up for grabs," so to speak. No answer comes from the children about
Heidegger's culpability.

        Why don't we have a similar poem on Lukacs? Perhaps he is not as
important and well known as Heidegger. Perhaps we don't have too many
so-called poets who have such intellectual pretentions.

        One ought to be able to separate the man from his politics. For
example, Heidegger's role in modern philosophy is unquestionable, regardless
of his politics. Lukacs's role is quite forgettable, again, regardless of
his politics. Bertold Brecht as a man was most likely despicable and his
politics unspeakable, yet he remains a giant of modern German literature.

        However, after all that, don't expect that the holocaust will be
equated in all respects with other atrocities of the twentieth century. It
will not be because the holocaust was different: Hitler wanted to eliminate
a group of people on racial/ethnic grounds. The other atrocities were mostly
centered around ideology or class.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The bloody footprints of the commissar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:02 AM 8/20/96 EDT, Csaba Zoltani wrote:

>(1) At the height of the Second World War, 8,266,373 served in the
>    US Armed Forces. To my knowledge, only a single US soldier was
>    executed for "cowardice". Posthumously, this private became a
>    celebrity.
>
>(2) During his brief tenure as commissar, according to sources already
>    cited, Lukacs had eight of his countrymen executed for alleged
>    cowardice.
>
>Lukacs is not faulted for fighting for his country against the Romanian
>invaders, but for his inexcusable behavior as commander. Of course,
>those who allied themselves with the perpetrators of the Red Terror were
>not known for their humanitarianism.

        Again, I emphasize the fact that I am no great admirer of Gyorgy
Lukacs but, at the same time, I am rather finicky about historical
investigation and impartiality. So, let me try to think aloud about some
related questions.

        The only reason we know about the eight soldiers being summarily
executed in the Hungarian Red Army in 1919 because Gyorgy Lukacs told us so.
If he said nothing, we most likely wouldn't know what happened in those
battalians to which he was attached as political commissar.

        The very obvious questions immediately pop into my head: (1) How
frequent or infrequent such summarily executions were during the First World
War; (2) Was there any difference in attitude between the Central Powers and
the Entente powers; (3) Could we in any way ascertain how many such
summarily executions for cowardliness took place in the Hungarian Red Army
in 1919. (4) Was this the only occurence? Were there others? (5) What was
his exact role? Did he just agree with the officer in charge that such
summarily executions must take place or did he himself suggest such move?

        Without such investigation, I don't think that we can make any final
judgment on the incident.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:56 AM 8/20/96 -0300, Johanne wrote:

>Of course, the Hungarians should feel superior, because they are superior!

        Music to my ears! But then how is it possible that I met so many not
so smart Hungarians in my lifetime?

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:22 AM 8/20/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>BTW- is everyone noticing that Hungary has now lost its lead in
>western investments...it is now Czech, Slovakia, Poland. What happened???

        What happened? The Hungarian economy is not so great! Investors'
confidence is waning.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:20 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I think French (and German, to some extant) lost its cultural supremacy
>because this century turned out to favour those who dominated commerce,
>finance and trade.  And I think that those robust American boys were more
>instrumental in spending money and semen, then in spreading the language.

        After thinking about it a bit more, I agree with you.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:43 PM 8/20/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>It is not non-sense to expect that a congressman of Hungarian ancestry
>would try to assure that the Hungarian minorities in Romania, etc.
>are treated properly. That is what I meant by one of our own.

        No, it is not nonsense but that doesn't mean that he has to support
the Hungarian position if he thinks that Hungarian position is not the right
one. Although I have been reading about the Romanian-Hungarian negotiations
for months from the brief news reports and I simply can't decide what
happened to the particular interpretation of autonomy. The Hungarian foreign
office, for example, denies any change in Hungaian policy concerning the
question. I have the feeling that again, the Romanians think one thing and
the Hungarians think another and they signed not quite knowing what they
signed. See the Slovak-Hungarian treaty.

        As for Lantos. I happened to know the Lantos family. Mr. and Mrs.
and their two children, Anita and Katerina. Both children were born in the
United States, yet both speak Hungarian fluently. Few Hungarian families who
have been living in the United States since 1946 can boast about their
children being bilingual. The Lantos family can. Tom Lantos is a decent man
and somehow I don't think that he would sell his birthplace to the dogs.

        Eva Balogh


>In fact if you monitored the issues you would have found that
>for quite a while Lantos was agains MFN status and after a visit
>to Romania (official visit) he turned on a dime! Perhaps that is
>what everyone is to expect from a politician???
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>At 02:43 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>The French have a cultural superiority complex?  Really?  If someone asked
>>me, who in the world has a cultural superiority complex,  I would, without
>>hesitation, say the Hungarians.  If you don't believe me, just listen to
>>Hungarians talk about food, music, medicine, math, and sports.

<snip>..
>        No question, for centuries French culture was paramount in Europe:
>the English tried to imitate them and the Germans tried to imitate them.
>And everybody else tried to imitate them. The language of diplomacy was
>French...<snip>..

The French are undoubtedly proud of their language and culture, but French
culture paramount for centuries? Sounds like you've been brainwashed by
an ultra patriotic French person. What about Italian and Spanish cultures?
German/Teutonic culture also stands proudly on its own two feet and was
arguably much more influential in shaping modern European intellectual
thought. The British and Germans are just as *superior* about their
cultural heritage, if not more so, than the French. This talk of imitation
is, er, misinformed :-)  Sure, there are examples of where Europeans took
up some ideas initiated by the French, but they also took up a lot more
from everywhere else...all these powerful (including the French) cultures
ebbed and flowed with much cross- fertilization from each other. The use
of French in diplomacy was largely due to snobbery; since the Norman
invasion of England, 1066, French became the language of English royalty
and its usage filtered down the echelons, so when Britain and France
were the two most powerful empires French naturally standardized as the
language of diplomacy, despite the former prevalence of Spain, Portugal,
etc, (but note that Latin was the common language of intellectuals for
centuries). BTW French is still the standard second language taught in
English schools today (though German and Spanish are figuring [er, not
to say American, too :-)] a bit more lately.) BTW how does ONE example
of a single educated French person you happened to know make an argument
for the whole of France and their language skills and culture?

For decades now there has been a special French-German students exchange
programme. When in Clermont-Ferrand (Central France) three, or so, years
ago I got by in German when my school French was found wanting! BTW What
is the logical connection between the German Blitzkrieg in France and the
language/culture subject? So what if France collapsed (like everyone else)?
Six years later the Germans lost their colonies and today the French still
have 6,000 troops on active service in Africa.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:56 AM 8/20/96 -0300, Johanne L. Tournier boasted:

<snip>
>I can attest to the superiority complex of the French. And in there case, it
>is not a mask for actually feeling inferior!

Ok, Johanne, start attesting.  Perhaps you can show how the French cultural
superiority complex differs from the (perceived?) Hungarian one.

This could turn out to be a learning experience for all of us.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

>Hungarians as a people - of whatever ethnic
>extraction tend to be more than ordinarily intelligent - many akin to
genius
>- but with that acute intelligence comes acute awareness and thus
sometimes
>acute unhappiness - but also joy, passion, love and all those good
things,
>too.
>
>Just my two fillers worth.
>
>Johanne
>Johanne L. Tournier
>e-mail - 

I, like Johanne, have always been fascinated with and impressed by
Hungarians. I wouldn't spend so much time debating on this list if I
didn't. Hungarians do tend to be more rambunctious, argumentative and
romantic than their surrounding neighbors. In this respect, they have much
in common with Southerners. But they will never cut it in the cultural
superiority sweepstakes. They're much too pragmatic and down-to-earth to
ever get swept up in that particular rat race. Except for Joe Szalai, of
course.
Sam Stowe












P.S. -- Ha, ha, ha, Joe! I bet you immediately started typing out a
blistering comeback before you even got this far! Just tweaking you, old
buddy. You're always okay with me.
Sam

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Sour cream (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What is mexican food without some sour cream topping on it...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
    http://www.dejanews.com/      [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]
+ - Re: German Army (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>As far as I know nobody was against the encirclement. It just
>did not succeed.

Actually, they didn't seriously try. They didn't even try to cross the
Don in force (a reconnaisance group reached Astrakhan). One rationale
was secure the city quickly to protect the hinge of the Caucasus attack
to the south.

>They (Germans) were about to encircle the
>Soviet army fighting between the Don bend and Stalingrad (I
>think this was the 62nd, but I am not sure),

Marshal Chuikov (see his memoirs *The Beginning of the Road*)
was in command of the 62nd Guards in the defence of the city.

>but either Paulus
>was late to close the pocket or the Russian was too strong and could
>managed to escape back to Stalingrad (I should check
>my books for the details). So that is why the Germans had
>to take (or had to try) Stalingrad by force. Also the original
>German attack (I think it was called 'The Blue') had two main
>attacking direction and the 6th German Army was supposed to
>go on north of Stalingrad. However the Russians were to strong
>so the Germans had to reorganize their attack, making only
>one 'iron spearhead' concentrated most of their strongest
>units, to keep on the momentum of their offensive. Stalingrad
>was chosen as target for this second part as Hitler considered
>huge economical and political importance to it. The weakness
>of such a plan (concentrated German units and relativly weak
>units, mainly from satellite countries on the flanks) was
>obvious for everybody.

Anyway, you can find out the strategy of Operation Blau from the
cited books, and, yes, Stalingrad was politically significant, but
the real economic factor was more to do with natural resources to
the south, despite Stalingrad being a model new Soviet centre of
heavy industry.

>>the Germans bit the dust (or, ice). Even, later, Operation Zitadelle
>>(to pinch off the Kursk pocket, Summer 1943) might have succeeded had
>>Hitler not pulled out at the crucial moment (see von Manstein's *Lost
>>Victories*, Paget's *Manstein* and Carell's *Scorched Earth* amongst
>
>I doubt that but this a personal opinion. By that time (1943)
>the Russian front had no weak point, they just simple
>bleed out any German offensive and when the Germans run out
>their force they just keep on throwing new units in the battle
>and won.

Don't doubt it, check out the cited sources (I researched this subject
for years in the Imperial War Museum archives and amassed a pretty good
personal library, with lots of original [now impossible to obtain] stuff,
too). It is still hard to break down the influence of Allied propaganda
about some of these campaigns, and of course, Soviet sources would never
admit that they ever had a chance of losing the Kursk bulge ;-)

Much like playing chess such way that one side can put five new figure
> on the board in each round while the other cannot. My opinion is that the
> Germans had already lost the
>war in 1941 when they could not break the Russians with the Barbarossa.
(and had
> not got to much chance to win it anyway)

I'll leave you to your research on this one, but to start you off:
had the Germans won Kursk, it would very likely only have stabilised
the Eastern Front (see Liddell-Hart's *History of the Second World War*
but why am I citing one or two books? Just get *everything* you can like
I did) and allowed a possible negotiated settlement (secret talks had
already taken place in 1942) but a lot other issues complicate this
possibility. The Soviets were able to denude their Far Eastern defences
on the basis of the unliklihood of Japanese attack (the spy Richard Sorge
discovered Jap intentions in 1942 which allowed the reinforcement of the
Stalingrad and subsequent fronts with these Far Eastern units) and although
the Lucy spy ring supplied the Soviets (via fifth columnists in the Abwehr)
with a lot of data about German intentions regarding the Kursk bulge, a
deep investigation of how the pincer movements progressed led me to believe
that von Manstein could well have been right about success. General Model
was bogged down on the northern pincer movement, but von Manstein (on the
southern pincer) was within a few days/hours of his objective. Reaching it
would have opened the backdoor on the Soviets bogging down Model, and
although there were Soviet forces ready for the counterattack, but had
Kursk been secured then the question of whether that counterattack would
have had anything like the momentum it did have (against retreating forces)
is another matter. Of course, this argument about the possible German
victory at Kursk is largely conjectural, because it didn't happen and
there was still a huge mental block for most Allied historians and military
strategists to overcome (I started seriously researching all this stuff
over 30 years ago), but you know why Hitler pulled out at the last minute?
Because the casaulties were so fantastically high (despite a very much
higher ratio of Soviet to German losses). Even Stalingrad veterans (from
Soviet sources) claim that Kursk was the bloodiest most bitterly fought
campaign of their war. It was strategically probably the most vital
turning point of the entire war (notwithstanding El Alamein, Midway,
Stalingrad, etc.)

Another point (out of thousands) that comes to mind: the Germans could
have just walked into Leningrad when their troops reached the city in the
headlong pell-mell advance of 1941. One platoon even drove into the centre
of the city unopposed!! Hitler ordered the city be laid to to siege,
instead!!! The Soviets regrouped and the rest is, as they say, history.

>Hitler wasn't so big bozo (I don't know what this means but
>I assume appr. stupid) in my opinion, at least not in this
>sense. For example he had a major role in the quick victory
>over France by supporting von Manstein's plan (in fact forcing
>it against the plan of the old fashioned High Command).

After Kursk Hitler sacked von Manstein (widely regarded as the most
able field commander of any side in the war) from field operations.
The German High Command couldn't believe it and the Allies were
overjoyed!

I'd better sign off now...I got rid of all my stuff a decade or so
ago in disgust with all this war stuff...you know what they say:
LOOK BACK, BUT DON'T STARE! But what is happening now? I find myself
obsessively collecting books about the Manhattan Project and the A-bomb
attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki..I must be one sick individual!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: German Army (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...

Note...
>Actually, they didn't seriously try. They didn't even try to cross the
>Don in force (a reconnaisance group reached Astrakhan).
This means cross the Don in the vicinity of Stalingrad.

>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
>

--
--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:
> Although I have been reading about the Romanian-Hungarian negotiations
> for months from the brief news reports and I simply can't decide what
> happened to the particular interpretation of autonomy. The Hungarian foreign
> office, for example, denies any change in Hungaian policy concerning the
> question.

Well, they would, wouldn't they, to paraphrase Mandy Rice.  There were
also reports of both Hungary and Romania denying that they would have
been under great-power pressure to complete the Basic Treaty.  All this
would have to lead to the conclusion that Hungary and, likely to a lesser
extent, Romania were dragged away from their initial negotiating positions,
kicking and screaming behind the scenes, by the US and perhaps by the EU.

>I have the feeling that again, the Romanians think one thing and
> the Hungarians think another and they signed not quite knowing what they
> signed. See the Slovak-Hungarian treaty.

This is purely for internal consumption.  The Hungarian government has
already started to attract flak for "abandoning Hungarians in Romania".
Fronting up and admitting so much publicly would be political suicide,
even if is obvious that there was no other choice: the only way of saving
some political capital is straight-faced denial.

George Antony
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have been following the Romanian press's reactions to the negotiations and
to what transpired about them so far. It is interesting to see the reactions
of Funar and his group: they are considering that including resolution 1201
(even with an explanation) is treason. Funar asked to debate Iliescu on TV
about the treaty.

The general reaction to the US government's reaction is a friendly one. Some
of the Romanian press reports assign it to a recent declaration of the
Romanian defense minister, who asked in very strong terms that Romania be
admitted to NATO in the first wave, together with the rest of the "first
wavers" or else...

I am tempted to agree with those who think the State Department is just for
the quiet status quo in this election year, they are worried about anything
that could disturb the waters of the Clinton re-election.

Gabor D. Farkas

P. S. I liked the editorial on this topic in Wednesday's (8/21) Nepszabadsag.
+ - -No Subject- (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Died (murdered) in New Zealand Aug-1996. Eva Fuzes (81) with her husband
Emerich Fuzes (86) seriously ill in Auckland Hospital.
The nurse that attended them is in court charged with assault.
Mr and Mrs Fuzes came to NZ shortly after the '56 revolution.

(NZPA Dominion Aug 21st)
+ - Re: Bloody footprints of the Commissar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Csaba Zoltani wrote:

>In passing judgement on Lukacs' actions while serving Bela Kun, it
>is worthwhile to consider two facts:
>
>(1) At the height of the Second World War, 8,266,373 served in the
>    US Armed Forces. To my knowledge, only a single US soldier was
>    executed for "cowardice". Posthumously, this private became a
>    celebrity.
>
>(2) During his brief tenure as commissar, according to sources already
>    cited, Lukacs had eight of his countrymen executed for alleged
>   cowardice.

Nothing is further from me to defend Gyorgy Lukacs, I
don't have too much respect for communist (especially
Kun Bela type). But I have to add one more fact to
yours:

(3) It does make some difference if a soldier is 'coward' thousands
    of miles away from his/her home, or do the same in the middle of
    it. Not to mention that the soviet republic was basicly fighting
    for her life, with an army organized in hurry. They simple could
    not afford to be human and nice (even if they had wanted to be
    which I doubt). So in other words the atitude toward the 'cowardice'
    in the US Armed Force could have been much different if the last
    US battalion had run away in front of Chicago leaving it for the
    enemy.

This does not mean that I would like such way to 'encourage' soldiers.

J.Zsargo

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