Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 858
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-26
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: War Criminals (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: War Criminals (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
3 HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
4 Pa'l system to ours? (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: War Criminals (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Pa'l system to ours? (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: War Criminals (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Mindszenty - (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
13 Origins of Thanksgiving (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  118 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: War Criminals (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
16 Slovakia: Law on Protection of Republics again (mind)  124 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
18 OMRI Daily Digest (November 22, 1996) (mind)  126 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  125 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Hungarians joined the MKP in hordes (was: the nasty (mind)  190 sor     (cikkei)
23 Once more about Orban, the nasty and related topics (mind)  226 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm only the messenger, so please keep all abuse
to yourselves! -

In HVG (09/nov) There is an interview with Fejto Ferenc,
a historian who lives in France since 1938. He had given a
lecture in the rooms of the French Senate, in a two-
day international colloquium, supported by Chirac and Goncz.

The gist of his opinion - he says, supported by new
evidence from so far un-researched sources - is
"understanding, but not forgiving" for Kadar's actions.

I am willing to type the article (2000+words!) in Hungarian
over the weekend, but somebody else would have to do the translation...


+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In reply tp Andy Kozma, I would like to defer to Charlie Vamossy's reply
as he so eliquently performed. Mr. Farkas' comment is also
true....enforcement of the law is justice (provided the law is just).

There are many many laws on the books, in religious teachings, etc. that
are not adhered to nor enforced.

Back to the basics then -- if one wants justice (as defined above) how
does one do that when the enforcers themselves are corrupt and immoral?

Perhaps the people as a whole ought to reserve exclusively the power to
bring such criminals to justice reagrdelss of who is in "power"?
Else, the people will become cynical and never recover their peace and
sanity.

Peter Soltesz
+ - HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To All:

Just wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving.  Let us all remember
that we need to be thankful for all that God has given us.

With kind regards,

Peter Soltesz
+ - Pa'l system to ours? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Where is the cheapest place that I can convert my videos to the other
system Pa'l to ours and ours to Pa'l.  In Canada if possible, it doesn't
matter if it is not in Ottawa.
        BUT
For the Ottawa readers where do you take yours?

Christina


 *****   ** **            Christina S. Magyar          *     *
*      *   *  *                                           |      Keep
*     *    *   *   *      Carleton University          \_____/   Smiling!
 *****          ***     
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> I agree with Charlie Vamossy's statement on the topic. I think everyone
> suspected to be guilty of crimes of any kind (war crimes, etc.) should be
> tried and, if convicted, sentenced. This is the American way. And lately
> becoming the universal  way (see South Korea, Germany, Central African
> Republic and others).
>

There are war/other  criminals the "American Way" prefers
to ignore. Some murderers are more equal than others...
There were a few in Vietnam, if I remember
correcly, some really nasty people in Cambodia - allowed to
take part in the next government, and our friend and ally
(oh, and good paying customer of the all-important arm-trade)
Suharto in Indonesia managed to do away with a few hundred-
thousand people... need I go on?

>
> Enforcing laws is not vengeance. It's justice.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas

depends on the laws. If the laws are authorised murder,
I'd have second thoughts. Especially as judgement can't
be 100% sure convicting the real culprit. But that is another
topic...


+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just a polite reminder, that He in His Wisdom
has left a lot of people out from "giving".



we are not all religious - which doesn't mean, that
the tradition itself cannot be maintained to
offer a good time to have a family gettogether.
But don't take it over in the name of any god please.


>
> To All:
>
> Just wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving.  Let us all remember
> that we need to be thankful for all that God has given us.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Happy Thanksgiving!

I heartily agree with Eva D's comments directly below:

Eva :

> Just a polite reminder, that He in His Wisdom
> has left a lot of people out from "giving".
>
> 
>
> we are not all religious - which doesn't mean, that
> the tradition itself cannot be maintained to
> offer a good time to have a family gettogether.
> But don't take it over in the name of any god please.
>
>
> >
> > To All:
> >
> > Just wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving.  Let us all remember
> > that we need to be thankful for all that God has given us.
> >
> > With kind regards,
> >
> > Peter Soltesz
>
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Eva Durant wrote:

> Just a polite reminder, that He in His Wisdom
> has left a lot of people out from "giving".
>
> 
>
> we are not all religious - which doesn't mean, that
> the tradition itself cannot be maintained to
> offer a good time to have a family gettogether.
> But don't take it over in the name of any god please.
K

Geez!
Perhaps Eva you do not understand something. Thanksgiving was and IS a
thanks to GOD. That is the original purpose of Thanksgiving and not to
have just a family get together as you so imply. I am not theone that is
"taking over in the name of any god".

It belongs to GOD the people who thanked GOD for getting them food when
they had none.  You may be polite as you like, but please do not attempt
to remove God from Thanksgiving.  Perhaps your overwhelming desire to be
politically correct is getting you into all this. Perhaps you need to
read the story of why Thanksgiving originated and its circumstances.

Then you will see the truth.

BTW in the USA Thanksgiving has now become a more celebrated holiday than
Christmas or Hannukah (as it is the only other GOD related holiday that
is non-sectarian - perhaps).

Eva, I and many Americans object to your mischaracterization of our
Thanksgiving.

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Mark:
The same note applies to you as I just sent to Eva on the BBS.
Peter
+ - Re: Pa'l system to ours? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Christina Magyar asked about Pa'l.

Dear Chris it is PAL...
you need to get on a web searcher like Alta Vista and enter the following
NTSC PAL SECAM video conversions

Then you will get many replies (hundreds) bothe in Canada and the States.

Some Hungarian copied tapes are in the SECAM mode and you need to convert
them all to NTSC (PAL to NTSC and SECAM to NTSC). They cost anywhere from
US$15-25 plus shipping for a 2 hour tape (T-180 size in PAL/SECAM).
Hope that this helps,

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>At 07:38 PM 11/24/96 -0500,Andy Kozma wrote:
>
>>>Peter:the subject was WAR Criminals.We don't have to be liberals,neither
>>socialist,nor Republicans to adhere the Geneva convention.
>>War criminals commit there crime in War.Not Rakosi,nor Gero or other Jew
>>committed there crime in War.
>
><<snip>>
>
>>Greetings:Andy.
>
>I have not followed closely this thread, but Andy's comments beg my own.
>
>The Geneva conventions are a set of rules that attempt to define  wartime
>behavior, when it is a lot more tempting to break laws and claim that all is
>fair in the interest of fighting a war.  The Conventions remind the warring
>parties that they are expected to adhere to some rules and that they should
>expect their enemies to do the same.
>
>The Geneva conventions have no impact on peacetime activities, when other
>rules and laws govern, thus technically Andy is right that Gero Rakosi (and
>we should add at least Farkas Mihaly) violate the Geneva conventions.
>
>So what???  The unholy trio of  Gero, Rakosi and Farkas should have been
>subject to normal peacetime Hungarian laws.  The false imprisonment and
>sometimes the subsequent murder of well known people like Laszlo Rajk and
>countless nameless others should have been capital crimes.  Unfortunately,
>laws are enforced by people who possess the power, and these murders were
>deemed not to have been murders under the Kadar regime.  False charges,
>trumped up evidence, violations of basic human freedoms and due process
>should have brought at least stiff punishment for perjury for at least the
>Rakosi, Gero, Farkas trio.  Instead, they enjoyed their retirement years in
>exile and died of natural causes, having spent not a single day in prisons
>like Recsk.
>
>Kadar himself was falsely accused of high crimes against the Hungarian State
>and was imprisoned for a while.  Rumors even have it that he was tortured in
>jail.  After he was freed, he spoke out against his tormentors and in
>October 1956 joined the Revolutionary Government of Imre Nagy and became the
>Secretary of the Communist Party.  Unfortunately, he then decided to commit
>high treason, this time for real, and even though he was a minister in the
>Nagy Government, he deserted his post and he physically joined the enemy
>troops and accompanied them in their military attack on  Hungary and its
>Government. Once installed as the Soviet Union's local puppet, he negotiated
>with the Yugoslav Government and gave his word for the freedom and free
>departure of Imre Nagy and his party from the Yugoslav Embassy.  He broke
>his word and arrested them as even as they were boarding their bus which was
>to take them home. Having become a pitiful liar and having committed high
>treason himself, I guess he no longer felt the moral justification to bring
>his tormentors Rakosi, Gero and Farkas to justice.  That of course, did not
>prevent him from murdering Prime Minster Imre Nagy, some of his colleagues
>and hundreds of others.
>
>For a government thus  born in the midst of such a moral  dung heap, any
>wonder if it failed to do the right thing later?
>
>Back to Rakosi, Gero, etc.:  the fact that their religious origin was Jewish
>have nothing to do with their crimes (just like Kadar's crimes have nothing
>to do with the fact he was born a Christian).  I am sure that their lives
>and crimes are as much an anathema to religious Jews as it is to religious
>Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoist, etc (with apologies to all I
>left out).  With their actions they offended as much their commandments as
>those of others (thou shalt not kill, for one...).  They were failures as
>Jews, they were failures as human beings.
>
>regards,
>
>Charles Vamossy
>
Ok.So we were talking about war criminals.So someone had to bring in the
guilty Jews.What does that have to do with War?
And if we are on this subject how would you solve the latest war criminials
in Serbia,Bosznia,Croatia?
Andy.>
+ - Re: Mindszenty - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

DANUBE wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:
> >
> > Indeed. Far from me from defending the communist anti-revolutionaries after
> > 1956. And maybe they would have killed Cardinal Mindszenty. But he found
> > refuge at the American embassy, where he spent a number of years. I think
> > finally he was allowed to leave and died in exile (in the Vatican?).
> >
> > Gabor D. Farkas
> > ---------------
>    Mindszenty has lived (and died) in Austria. Although the Vatican
> has arranged for him  to leave Hungary,  the Vatican didn't want to
> have anything to do with him after that.He had embarrassed even the
> Vatican, and some of us know how difficult that is.
>                                                       Amos
Cardinal Mindszenty was consistent in his anti-totalitarian,
pro-Catholic, pro-Hungarian viewpoint, and didn't hesitate to honestly
express his views.  This caused him much trouble and got him jailed by
the Nazis only to be later jailed by the Communists after a show trial.
He was sentenced to life imprisonment by the Communists, and liberated
during the 1956 Revolution.  After the Revolution's suppression by
Soviet tanks, he took refuge in the American Embassy in Budapest where
he remained for the next 15 years, fearing arrest and imprisonment.  He
was finally allowed to leave the embassy on condition of leaving
Hungary, arrangements having been made by the Nixon administration.  He
died in exile in Austria where he eventually settled after his leaving
the embassy.  His strident anti-totalitarian and anti-Communist message
was looked down upon during the era of "Detente".  He refused to be
conciliatory towards the Communist dictatorship, which obviously made it
difficult for them to work together.  The Vatican on the other hand, was
at this time attempting better relations with the Kadar regime in order
to preserve what was left of the Hungarian Church, and to ease the
persecution.  Obviously a strident unyielding opponent of the Moscow
installed Kadar regime was hardly one to make the Vatican's job easier.
Perhaps some would construe his unyielding and outspoken opposition to
be "embarassing".  Whatever one thinks about Mindszenty, he was true to
his beliefs, and spoke up against the Communist attempts to co-opt the
Church and control it from within.

-Ted
+ - Origins of Thanksgiving (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To All those who seem to forget or want to ignore the truth. I hereby
enclose the verbatum decleration of Thanksgiving. It may behhove all to
read it at least once.
Peter Soltesz

THE FIRST THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATION - JUNE 20, 1676:

     // The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series
of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr
with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought
to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this
wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst
of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered
his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for
our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion,
and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened,
and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with
many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them,
without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been
sensible of, if it be the Lord/s mercy that we are not consumed,
It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies
are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the
Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his
returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as
not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading
him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions:

     The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the
29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving
and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many
Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not
those who are sensible of God/s Afflictions, have been as diligent
to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as
a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council
doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people
of this Jurisdiction; Solemnly and seriously to keep the same
Beseeching that being perswaded by the mercies of God we may all,
even this whole people offer up our bodies and soulds as a
living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ. //

------------------------------------

The First Thanksgiving Proclamation (June 20, 1676)

On June 20, 1676, the governing council of Charlestown,
Massachusetts, held a meeting to determine how best to express
thanks for the good fortune that had seen their community
securely established. By unamimous vote they instructed
Edward Rawson, the clerk, to proclaim June 29 as a day of
thanksgiving, our first. That proclamation is reproduced here
in the same language and spelling as the original.

------------------------------------
<end>
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like to join to those who wish a Happy Thanksgivings
to everyone! For this distinguished and joyful occasion I
selected some wonderful parts of President Clinton's
election night Victory Speech (by the Washington Post).
I hope to finish to cover the President's latest notes
(my notes are inserted) about God and his own personal
relationship to the Saviour tomorrow. Enjoy it!
                                                   Sz. Zoli

******   ******   ******   ******   ******   ******   *******

Election night, 1996, Little Rock, Arkansas
The President of the United States is speaking
Part One


                  Thank you.

                  My fellow Americans, thank you for being here.

                  And as we looked at the ballot together and discussed
                  the issues there, I thanked God that I was born an
                  American.

The President thanks first of all God that he was born here,
in this country. It may be surprising that he did not thanked
his (unfortunately deceased) Mom and Dad that he was born here.
He chosed God to thank this thing to Him, and nobody else,
because the President is believing in the magnificient power
of God Almighty and He wanted to declare this fact to America!


                  I thank the leaders of our party in the Congress and
                  the state houses. I thank all those who stood for what
                  we believe in, in these elections today -- those who
                  won and those who did not. You did a service to
                  America by raising the things in which we believe, and
                  I thank you all and wish you Godspeed.

The President exactly knows how much he should thank people
who helped him into his victory. He expresses his good wishes
by speaking about God again.


                  I thank those who served this administration and our
                  cause who are no longer here tonight. And one
                  especially I must thank: my friend and brother Ron
                  Brown. You're looking down on us, and I know you're
                  smiling too.

This President really has a sense of humor. How wonderful! He
is joking about Ron Brown, who died on mission. But this joke
is not a simple one at all! It is about a dead man who is sitting
above the clouds, looking down and smiling at the President. It
is a lovely picture the President painted about the faithful
servant of the nation who is rewarded in heaven by everlasting
happiness!


                  Today our economy is stronger, our streets are safer,
                  our environment is cleaner, the world is more secure,
                  and thank God, our nation is more united.

The nation is more united. Surprising? Maybe. The middle of
the road politics Clinton shows up recently, and the possible
cooperation with Republicans to achieve a balanced budget is a
much-telling story about the unitedness of the American nation
in a lot of important political questions. The President really
had a rough time before.  He just kept trying to balance between
the sharp edges of his liberal political instincts and environment
and the political realities until he had to recognize that the
cooperative logic in the handling of the nation's budget has no
alternative. He thanks this realization directly to God. God led
his paths on this way of achieving a more united national politics.


                  We have work to do
                  to keep our economy growing steady and strong, by
                  balancing the budget while we honor our duties to our
                  families, our parents and our children; and our duty
                  to pass on to our children the Earth God gave us.

Even environmentalism is related to God in the President's speech.
And why not? It is the day, that God had made. It is the Earth
that He gave us.


                  That is what all the children of America deserve. Our
                  people have to give them the tools, to give them not a
                  guarantee, but that real chance to live up to their
                  God-given potential.

The future is future of the children. Whatever they have will
make the future of the country. Whatever capabilities, chances
they will have will make the fate of the future generation of
American people. And all this is given by God. All these
potentials on which the children of America will grow up is
given as a gift by the Almighty God. The President wanted to
make this position of him very clear in the people's minds.


                  And I ask you to join me in that
                  commitment -- every child deserves the main chance
                  that I was given.

He was given -- by God. Of course, the President is talking
about God once again. And by this he puts his own personal
fate, his own personal successes in the hand of the Almighty.
What a wonderful thing from the President of the strongest
nation of the world! He knows, whatever he has and he achieved
is due to God.


                  Thank you. Good night, and God bless America.

Of course. You may have a good night because God blesses you
and your country. That is what the President is saying to you.
Keep his words and be thankful at Thanksgivings.
+ - Re: War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>G.D. Farkas wrote:
>
>>At 10:30 PM 11/23/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:
>>
>>>I would like to point out here that the Rakosi regime didn't make any
>>>distinction between Jews and non-Jews.  Jewish "capitalists" had
exactly
>>>the same fate as the non-Jewish capitalists.
>>
>>We all know this. I am sure  knows it too. But he is a
nazi
>>and does what nazis do. How old is he? Was he a "keretlege'ny"? Or may
be
>>one of Szalasi's boys? Is he yearning for the good old times?
>>
>>The light is strong and I hope he is going to crawl back where he
belongs,
>>under the rock, with all the other bugs.
>>
>>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>Whoa! Do you get so nervous all the time when you read/meet
antisemitism?
>Such guys (nazi scums as you called them) don't worth so much.
>
>J.Zs

Well, yes.  I am also getting nervous.  Never forget that nobody took the
nazis serious when they started their street fights in the 20's, and
nobody took Hitler serious in those time either.
I am reading very disturbing things about what is happening in present
day Hungary, and I know that people are getting nervous, although the
completely assimilated Hungarian Jews always put their heads in the sand
and never believed anything can happen to them.

Agnes
+ - Slovakia: Law on Protection of Republics again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following article is dealing with a new attempt to pass the
"Law on the protection of the Republics" through the Slovak
Parliament.

It is a slightly abridged text of a RFE (Bratislava) broadcast by
Maria Hluchanova. Complete text of the transcription in Slovak has
been posted to bit.listserv.slovak-l and soc.culture.czecho-slovak.
I did not succeed yet to get the original text of the law draft.
If someone has it in electronic form, please forward it to me, I
will translate it.

In my opinion, this is the most important milestone in the
transformation of Slovakia into an autoritarian regime. Please
call attention to this new attempt to liquidate the last rests
of freedom and democracy in Slovakia.

Sorry for my poor English, I have translated it in hurry.

Roman Kanala

-------

The "Law on the Protection of the Republics" has been adopted by
the ruling majority in March 1996 despite protests and warnings
in Slovakia and from abroad. Beginning April, President Kovac has
returned it to the Parliament. Since, it has been twice removed
from the programme by the coalition deputies. Now, on the December
session programme, its new version should be submitted.

The new version of the Law appeared these days in the Slovak
Parliament. On the last session, the deputies refused to approve
the original version with the President's corrections, but also
failed to approve the original text. So the question about the
final draft has been left open. Time has shown it was not for long.
The new wording has been prepared by a group of deputies, 8 from
the Slovak National Party, 2 from the Movement for Democratic
Slovakia and 2 from Association of the Workers of Slovakia.

Even the title of the law draft is showing that the material is
wholy new, at least from an administrative point of view it's not
a mere followup to its famous predecessor. But this is only a formal
aspect. From its contents, it goes exactly in the same sense as
the first law draft approved in March, especially the parts concerning
"high treason" and "disruption of the Republic".


Like in the original law draft, this one contains new articles 92a,
92b and 98. Article 92a: "Who with intention to disrupt the
constitutional order, territorial integrity, territorial unity or
the defense capability of the Republic, or to destroy its sovereignity
is CALLING FOR MASS UNREST, will be punished by loss of freedom for
6 months to 3 years or by a financial fine." The original article 92a
spoke about "perpertrating a crime whose perpertrator had an intention
to disrupt the constitutional order". The new version speaks only
about intention to call for mass unrest. The "mass unrest" is declared
as "simultaneous appearing of an important number of people, from
behaviour of whose it is obvious that they are endangering the
activity of State organs, security or property".

The question is that upon which criterion the court will decide
that the behaviour of an important number of people is endangering
the activity of the State organs ? Will a mass unrest be a meeting
where people are criticising the government because of the
privatisation ? Or a demostration calling for demission of ministers
who succeeded to get their appartment cheap ?

The formulation in article 92b is also ambigous. It is sanctioning
the "appeals on mass refusal to fulfill the obligations toward the
State, with intention to disrupt the constitutional order". What that
exaclty means can be learned from the explanation notes (Dovodova
sprava): "expressions appealing on civil disobedience toward the
State".

Both articles are dealing with "appealing on something". Appealing
in itself is a vague formulation that can contain everything from
a peaceful meeting to a demonstration, but such delimitation has no
place in the Penal Code of a democratic country, and absolutely
nothing to do with crimes against the Republic.

There is one more important aspect: HIGHER PENALTIES FOR PUBLIC
ORGANS. Putting public organs among the potential perpetrators of
the most severe crimes is really something unusual in democratic
countries. Something that can become a nightmare for the opposition
deputies who belong to "public organs".


But the paroxysm is contained in the new article 98 "DAMAGING THE
STATE INTERESTS". Exact formulation: "The one who, as a citizen of
the Slovak Republic, or as a person with permanent residence on the
territory of Slovak Republic, in connection with a foreign power or
a foreign organ is deliberately spreading false news, damaging the
Republic's interests, will be punished up to 2 years or by a fine.

Here one can find several new terms. "Foreign power" is explained
as "organs of a foreign State, represented by physical persons".
"Foreign organs" are "physical persons or organisations, which is
not necessarily an official State organ but is able to influence
the State policy". The enumeration is shocking: "influent
politicians, representants of the economic sphere, etc."

Also interesting is the interpretation of the term "false
informations". At one place, it is declared that "false informations"
cannot be opinions or critics based on subjective appreciation of
the reality, after the explanation notes (Dovodova sprava),
"spreading informations is every activity allowing an information,
news, or announce to be ported to attention of important number of
people. It may stem from a publication of the news in the press,
in the radio, in the TV, by speaking on a meeting, or by
communicating the information to several persons, or even to one
single person knowing that the person will transmit the information
to an important number of people".

If such a reasoning surprises the journalists, it is even more
surprising that it will be possible to punish more severely for
that crime the PUBLIC ORGANS.

This new initiative of the coalition deputies is shocking. Not only
the controversial parts of the previous version were not removed,
but the issue has been made even more nebulous. Also shocking is
repeating the foreign examples from Austria, Germany, France, only
Sweden has been replaced by Switzerland. If this law draft, after
the Slovak Prime Minister, had to calm the worries in Slovakia and
abroad, it seems that the authors of the law draft had opposite
intentions.
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>Just a polite reminder, that He in His Wisdom
>has left a lot of people out from "giving".
>

>
>we are not all religious - which doesn't mean, that
>the tradition itself cannot be maintained to
>offer a good time to have a family gettogether.
>But don't take it over in the name of any god please.
>
>
>>Thanksgiving is the only non-sectarian holiday.  2 years ago, one of
the reform rabbis in Toronto, Jordan Pearlson, had an editorial in the
Toronto Star.  He encouraged everybody to celebrate Thanksgiving, to
participate in this beatiful Canadian (ours was in October) holiday.  And
Eva, EVERYBODY has something to be thankful of, even if we have temporary
hardships or great difficulties.  Youd don't have to be religious.  You
can give thanks to Mother Nature, or to your own god you created for
yourself.

Agnes
+ - OMRI Daily Digest (November 22, 1996) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subject: OMRI: Daily Digest, Vol. 2, No. 227, 96-11-22

Vol. 2, No. 227, 22 November 1996

CONTENTS:

[B] SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE
[08] BELGRADE RALLIES CONTINUE.
[09] OFFICIAL MEDIA COVERAGE OF FEDERAL YUGOSLAV LOCAL ELECTIONS.
[10] 100,000 DEMONSTRATE IN ZAGREB FOR RADIO.
[11] CROATIA'S TUDJMAN WEAK AFTER HOSPITALIZATION.
[12] MISTREATMENT OF SARAJEVO SERBS.
[13] BOSNIAN SHORTS.
[14] KOSOVO EDUCATION SECRETARY DIES IN CAR ACCIDENT.

-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

[08] BELGRADE RALLIES CONTINUE.

Leaders of the opposition _Zajedno_ coalition organized another rally in
the city center to protest the regime's alleged tampering with the results
of the 17 November local elections. _Nasa Borba_ on 22 November estimated
the rally to be the largest anti-government demonstration since 9 March
1991, attracting some tens of thousands of people. No serious incidents
were reported. Demonstrators marched toward the state TV building, where
well-armed riot troops could be seen. Opposition leader Zoran Djindjic
summed up the proceedings by remarking that "this evening, some 100,000
people passed along the main streets of Belgrade, and all was peaceful."
--
Stan Markotich in Belgrade

[09] OFFICIAL MEDIA COVERAGE OF FEDERAL YUGOSLAV LOCAL ELECTIONS.

RTS I news on 21 November intimated that the main aim of the
demonstrations
was to incite mob violence and "terrorism." The broadcast also noted that
while the protest leaders claimed to "defend democracy..., their [actions]
and tactics serve only to undermine it." Meanwhile, _Vecernje novosti_ on
21 November reported that the local election authorities consider the
ruling Socialists to have won a majority of municipal council seats in
Nis,
a town earlier claimed by _Zajedno_. The daily observed that the situation
in Uzice, which also initially seemed to have gone to the opposition, was
dead-locked and would be resolved in a third round. At an earlier rally in
Nis, opposition leader Vuk Draskovic expressed fears that the Socialists
would engage in massive electoral fraud to win the city (see _OMRI Daily
Digest_, 20 November 1996). Meanwhile, Radio B-92 has reported that
Draskovic's wife has been kidnapped. Draskovic has accused President
Slobodan Milosevic of involvement. -- Stan Markotich in Belgrade

[10] 100,000 DEMONSTRATE IN ZAGREB FOR RADIO.

One of the largest mass meetings in Croatian history took place on 21
November in Zagreb's central Jelacic square. Protesters representing a
broad cross-section of society showed their support for independent Radio
101, which had lost its license the day before (see _OMRI Daily Digest_,
21
November 1996). The authorities had meanwhile restored the license in the
course of the day, but the crowds turned out in the evening anyway. What
began as a protest in favor of freedom of speech turned into one for
democracy as well. The independent daily _Novi List_ wrote on 22 November
of a "revolution in the air waves." It added that a wave of protests from
foreign governments and NGO's had turned "a local radio [into] a global
problem." Radio 101 also received a message from the 202nd
rocket-artillery
unit, saying "we are with you with our voices, manpower, and weapons if
necessary." -- Patrick Moore

[11] CROATIA'S TUDJMAN WEAK AFTER HOSPITALIZATION.

President Franjo Tudjman left Walter Reed Army Hospital in Washington for
a
brief visit to the Croatian embassy on 21 November. Croatian television
showed him looking "thin and exhausted," AFP reported. Government
officials
and the state-run media continue only to say that he has received
"treatment" for an ulcer and swollen lymph glands. CNN earlier quoted
unnamed State Department officials and a Croatian diplomat as saying that
he has cancer and does not have long to live. Tudjman will return to
Zagreb
on 23 November. -- Patrick Moore

[12] MISTREATMENT OF SARAJEVO SERBS.

UN police spokesman Alexander Ivanko said that Serbs are still victims of
attacks in the capital. A list of incidents prepared by the Democratic
Initiative of Serbs includes the bombing or torching of homes of prominent
Serbs or their families and the mistreatment of elderly Serbian women. The
report also notes an apparent singling out of ethnic Serb males between 16
and 60 years of age for military call-ups, the Helsinki Committee for
Human
Rights in Bosnia and Herzegovina reports in its latest newsletter.
Meanwhile, the leader of the Islamic community, Mustafa Ceric, urged
President Alija Izetbegovic to take action to prevent the Serbs from
building on the land in Banja Luka on which mosques once stood. The Serbs
systematically destroyed the all city's mosques, including two historic
ones that had been registered with UNESCO. -- Patrick Moore

[13] BOSNIAN SHORTS.

Federal Vice President Ejup Ganic spoke of an "historic day" as $100
million-worth of U.S. weapons for the Bosnian army were unloaded in
Croatia's port of Ploce. Meanwhile in Sarajevo, the Commission for the
Defense of Human Rights reported on violations of rights of refugees as
they attempt to go home in keeping with the Dayton agreement. The group
singled out local officials of the Republika Srpska in this context,
_Oslobodjenje_ noted on 22 November. Also in the capital, a Muslim threw a
bomb into a cafe belonging to the Croatian cultural society "Napredak."
The
man was arrested but his motives are not known. -- Patrick Moore

[14] KOSOVO EDUCATION SECRETARY DIES IN CAR ACCIDENT.

Xhavit Ahmeti, education adviser to Kosovar shadow state President Ibrahim
Rugova, died on 21 November when the car he was traveling in crashed with
a
truck near Smederevo. Democratic League of Kosovo (LDK) deputy chairman
Hydajet Hyseni, LDK secretary-general Fatmir Sejdiu, and the driver were
injured but are out of danger, Deutsche Welle's Albanian language service
reported. The four were on their way to Belgrade for meetings with Western
diplomats. Ahmeti was the key negotiator in talks with the Serbian
authorities that resulted in an education agreement that Rugova and
Serbian
President Slobodan Milosevic signed on 1 September. -- Fabian Schmidt
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-11-25 21:24:22 EST, you write:

> I would like to join to those who wish a Happy Thanksgivings
>  to everyone! For this distinguished and joyful occasion I
>  selected some wonderful parts of President Clinton's
>  election night Victory Speech (by the Washington Post).
>  I hope to finish to cover the President's latest notes
>  (my notes are inserted) about God and his own personal
>  relationship to the Saviour tomorrow. Enjoy it!
>                                                     Sz. Zoli
>
>  ******   ******   ******   ******   ******   ******   *******
>
>  Election night, 1996, Little Rock, Arkansas
>  The President of the United States is speaking
>  Part One
>
>
>                    Thank you.
>
>                    My fellow Americans, thank you for being here.
>
>                    And as we looked at the ballot together and discussed
>                    the issues there, I thanked God that I was born an
>                    American.
>
>  The President thanks first of all God that he was born here,
>  in this country. It may be surprising that he did not thanked
>  his (unfortunately deceased) Mom and Dad that he was born here.
>  He chosed God to thank this thing to Him, and nobody else,
>  because the President is believing in the magnificient power
>  of God Almighty and He wanted to declare this fact to America!
>
>
>                    I thank the leaders of our party in the Congress and
>                    the state houses. I thank all those who stood for what
>                    we believe in, in these elections today -- those who
>                    won and those who did not. You did a service to
>                    America by raising the things in which we believe, and
>                    I thank you all and wish you Godspeed.
>
>  The President exactly knows how much he should thank people
>  who helped him into his victory. He expresses his good wishes
>  by speaking about God again.
>
>
>                    I thank those who served this administration and our
>                    cause who are no longer here tonight. And one
>                    especially I must thank: my friend and brother Ron
>                    Brown. You're looking down on us, and I know you're
>                    smiling too.
>
>  This President really has a sense of humor. How wonderful! He
>  is joking about Ron Brown, who died on mission. But this joke
>  is not a simple one at all! It is about a dead man who is sitting
>  above the clouds, looking down and smiling at the President. It
>  is a lovely picture the President painted about the faithful
>  servant of the nation who is rewarded in heaven by everlasting
>  happiness!
>
>
>                    Today our economy is stronger, our streets are safer,
>                    our environment is cleaner, the world is more secure,
>                    and thank God, our nation is more united.
>
>  The nation is more united. Surprising? Maybe. The middle of
>  the road politics Clinton shows up recently, and the possible
>  cooperation with Republicans to achieve a balanced budget is a
>  much-telling story about the unitedness of the American nation
>  in a lot of important political questions. The President really
>  had a rough time before.  He just kept trying to balance between
>  the sharp edges of his liberal political instincts and environment
>  and the political realities until he had to recognize that the
>  cooperative logic in the handling of the nation's budget has no
>  alternative. He thanks this realization directly to God. God led
>  his paths on this way of achieving a more united national politics.
>
>
>                    We have work to do
>                    to keep our economy growing steady and strong, by
>                    balancing the budget while we honor our duties to our
>                    families, our parents and our children; and our duty
>                    to pass on to our children the Earth God gave us.
>
>  Even environmentalism is related to God in the President's speech.
>  And why not? It is the day, that God had made. It is the Earth
>  that He gave us.
>
>
>                    That is what all the children of America deserve. Our
>                    people have to give them the tools, to give them not a
>                    guarantee, but that real chance to live up to their
>                    God-given potential.
>
>  The future is future of the children. Whatever they have will
>  make the future of the country. Whatever capabilities, chances
>  they will have will make the fate of the future generation of
>  American people. And all this is given by God. All these
>  potentials on which the children of America will grow up is
>  given as a gift by the Almighty God. The President wanted to
>  make this position of him very clear in the people's minds.
>
>
>                    And I ask you to join me in that
>                    commitment -- every child deserves the main chance
>                    that I was given.
>
>  He was given -- by God. Of course, the President is talking
>  about God once again. And by this he puts his own personal
>  fate, his own personal successes in the hand of the Almighty.
>  What a wonderful thing from the President of the strongest
>  nation of the world! He knows, whatever he has and he achieved
>  is due to God.
>
>
>                    Thank you. Good night, and God bless America.
>
>  Of course. You may have a good night because God blesses you
>  and your country. That is what the President is saying to you.
>  Keep his words and be thankful at Thanksgivings.
>
Oy, oy......another one! Kindly crawl back under the rock you came from....
Maybe you and the good Reverend Soltesz could comiserate somewhere
out there near Plymouth Rock and leave us to our pagan ways of celebrating
Thanksgiving. Wheeeeeeeee........
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-11-25 22:30:21 EST, you write:

> >Thanksgiving is the only non-sectarian holiday.  2 years ago, one of
>  the reform rabbis in Toronto, Jordan Pearlson, had an editorial in the
>  Toronto Star.  He encouraged everybody to celebrate Thanksgiving, to
>  participate in this beatiful Canadian (ours was in October) holiday.  And
>  Eva, EVERYBODY has something to be thankful of, even if we have temporary
>  hardships or great difficulties.  Youd don't have to be religious.  You
>  can give thanks to Mother Nature, or to your own god you created for
>  yourself.
>
>  Agnes
>
>
Agnes, you are my woman (as in "you'r my man..) I like what you have written!

I got ticked off of the Rev.Soltesz and creepy crawly Szekely after
reading their "articles" about Thanksgiving. Real Holy men....
....I can't stand it when mere mortals stand on a hill and pontificate.

Regards,
Marina
+ - Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-11-25 14:12:59 EST,  (Peter A.
Soltesz) writes:

> On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Eva Durant wrote:
>
>  > Just a polite reminder, that He in His Wisdom
>  > has left a lot of people out from "giving".
>  >
>  > 
>  >
>  > we are not all religious - which doesn't mean, that
>  > the tradition itself cannot be maintained to
>  > offer a good time to have a family gettogether.
>  > But don't take it over in the name of any god please.
>  K
>
>  Geez!
>  Perhaps Eva you do not understand something. Thanksgiving was and IS a
>  thanks to GOD. That is the original purpose of Thanksgiving and not to
>  have just a family get together as you so imply. I am not theone that is
>  "taking over in the name of any god".
>
>  It belongs to GOD the people who thanked GOD for getting them food when
>  they had none.  You may be polite as you like, but please do not attempt
>  to remove God from Thanksgiving.  Perhaps your overwhelming desire to be
>  politically correct is getting you into all this. Perhaps you need to
>  read the story of why Thanksgiving originated and its circumstances.
>
>  Then you will see the truth.
>
>  BTW in the USA Thanksgiving has now become a more celebrated holiday than
>  Christmas or Hannukah (as it is the only other GOD related holiday that
>  is non-sectarian - perhaps).
>
>  Eva, I and many Americans object to your mischaracterization of our
>  Thanksgiving.
>
>  Peter Soltesz

Oy....here we go again.....Reverend Soltesz, you ought to look for another
flock
of sheep to minister to. We are beyond help....we are the "black" sheep of
the
Internet. Baa, baa black sheep etc.,
+ - Re: Hungarians joined the MKP in hordes (was: the nasty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva, IMHO we agree in many things.

First, I am glad to hear that not all Hungarians were an "opportunistic
lot" in general.  Then I have not written my posting in vain.

Unfortunately there are some points where our memories differ.

I am quite sure by my own experience that there was much pressure used
to force people to enter the party before the fifties, especially
before '48, the "unification" the communist party and the Social
Democrats.  You as a historian can quite sure check the sources, I can
only recall my childhood memories.

On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> >At 12:26 PM 11/22/96 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote, firs quoting me:
> >
> >>EB>  (3) There were relatively few home-grown Marxists, but the MKP,
> >>EB> thanks to people who sensed that the future belongs to the
> >>EB> communists, joined the MKP in hordes. [...]  If the
> >>EB> Hungarians were non-Marxist--and the majority certainly
> >>EB> wasn't--then I must conclude that our kind is an awfully
> >>EB> opportunistic lot!
> >>
> >>In the forties and fifties most people did not join the party "in
> >>hordes" because they "sensed that the future belongs to the
> >>communists", but because they were simply forced to do so.

EB>        Trained as a historian I like precise wording.

I am glad to hear that. So do I :-).  Even when I was only trained in
mathematics.

EB> Do you claim that in
EB> May 1945 people were actually threatened to join the communist party?

By no means. In May 1945 some people could enter the party by
conviction, or because they thought it will be good for their career.
E. g. many peasants entered the party who became landowners by the
"foldreform". I don't think force was used by that time.

EB> I know from my studies and my readings that no one forced
EB>  anyone to become a communist party member in  1945.

Peter Hidas  wrote:

PH> People in Hungary who joined the communist party (MKP) in 1945 had
PH> many options. One could join the social democrats, the
PH> smallholders etc. These parties also distributed jobs, provided
PH> protection, etc.

This was quite true. But it was true only for a rather short time.

PH> The future of Hungary was not decided and not even Stalin made
PH> plans for a coup at this time.

Well, I am not quite sure about that. Hungary had nominally a
coalition government but many things were decided by Marshall
Voroshilov, head of the Allied Committee of Control (Szovetseges
Ellenorzo Bizottsag) and ambassador Pushkin. There was an unbelievable
pressure on the coalition parties and on the government. There are
interesting sources about this, to name only a few I would mention the
memoirs of Ferenc Nagy, the smallholders' party minister president who
was forced to emigrate, or the memoirs of Gyorgy Marosan.

PH> In fact many arrow-cross criminals joined the party in addition to
PH> those who believed that the future belonged to the communists.
PH> Young idealists, opportunists, old communists, grateful poor farmers and
PH> many other people joined the MKP or voted for them;  17 to 20% of
PH> the electorate.

The votes for MKP were -- if I remember correctly -- in 1945 17%, in
1947 22%: however, we now, that the results of the '47 election were
manipulated. It is quite right, that many members of the arrow-cross
party joined the communists in '45 hoping that this will give them
some form of protection.

PH> Two years later opportunists flocked to the party, the new party
PH> in power. Eventually about 800,000 persons became card-carrying
PH> communists by 1956.

In this point we do not agree. Sure, there were many opportunists
among the party members. What I still want to tell -- and IMHO there
is sufficient evidence to support this -- that there was much pressure
used to force people to enter the party before the fifties, especially
before '48, the "unification" the communist party and the Social
democrats.

The cases I mentioned and I remember definitely happened before the
summer of 1948, the "unification".  I don't remember exactly, when the
"B-lista"  was, maybe by in 1946. But I remember that several people
were threatened by dismissal if they do not enter the party. Why the
communists did this I can only try to imagine.

 There were probably two reasons. The first could be that the
Smallholders had a landslide victory by the end of 1945, at about 57%
of the votes if I remember correctly. So probably the communists
wanted to show to Big Brother in Moscow that after the elections they
are getting stronger. (There was a legend in 1945 that before the
elections Rakosi promised to the Soviets that the communists will win,
and after the election, when the results became known, Rakosi was
kicked into his behind by Vorosilov, or, by some versions by the great
Stalin himself. Of course this was not in the newspapers, so I have no
idea whether it is true or not. Eva, you will know.)

Another reason could be that the communists wanted to show before the
(forced) party unification that the communist party has more members
and is stronger than the Social Democrats. Before the "unification"
there were even campaigns saying that many social democrats
"voluntarily"  left their party and entered the communist party.  The
joke I cited reflected this campaign. So this was surely before or in 1948.

That there was force used before the unification is supported by the
fact that after the unification when the membership of the unified
party was very large, a purification process was started. Many party
members were purged from the party as "reactionaries", if they were
religious then as "clerical reactionaries"  (klerikalis reakcios) or
"right-wing social democrats" who were forced to enter the party only
a few months before. They were not needed in the party anymore.

Some people were not dismissed completely but were put back to the
"membership candidate" category. After a few months probation they
could become a party member again.

Agnes Heringer wrote:

AH> I don't know any statistics, but to my knowledge, after the war
AH> many people joined the Social Democrats - and many, who were illegal
AH> members before and during the war - legalized their membership.
AH> After the communist takeover in 1949, all those social democrats became
AH> automatically members of the Magyar Dolgozok Partja - i.e. "The Party".

Yes: actually, the social democrats were a legal party in Hungary up
till March 1944, the German invasion of Hungary. And it is true that
the social democrats became automatically members of MDP after the
unification.  However, as I said, many of them were forced to leave
their party before the unification and join "voluntarily" the
communist party..  And many of them were thrown out from the MDF
during the 1949 purges.

EB> I don't doubt that later,
EB> let's say by 1947-48 the communists were strong enough to force
EB> people into joining but in the first couple of years after 1945 when
EB> actually the Smallholders were the largest party I doubt that most
EB> of the recruits were gotten that way.

The Smallholders were the largest, but not the strongest party. The
communists had the key positions and they had the support of the Soviets.

EB> However, I do agree that in the 1950s fear was a considerable factor.

About fear in the fifties: I already mentioned the memoirs of Piroska
Szanto. She describes that her husband, Istvan Vas, the poet, who was
a candidate for party membership at the beginning of the fifties,
decided not to become a party member and wrote a letter to the party
saying he is not well developed ideologically to deserve party
membership. Piroska Szanto describes very vividly what they went
through because of this letter. Istvan Vas was harassed several ways,
had to appear before several committees, he had very unpleasant
hearings and so on. It lasted two years until he was dismissed and
they spent these 2 years in constant fear.

EB>  And surely, you wouldn't claim that they were forced
EB> to be party members in the 1970s and 1980s.

No I wouldn't say so and I didn't say so.  Maybe some time some more
refined form of pressure was used. In other cases promises were given.
And if you wanted to climb higher on the ladder then entering the
party surely could help a lot. But brute force was not characteristic
for that time.

However, I talked mostly of the time of the late forties and the early
fifties when many people were forced to enter the party. And I also
talked about people who were not opportunistic enough to become a
party member.

Suummarizig, for the sake of precise wording: in 1945 there was no
force used. Of 1946 I don't know, but maybe it started already. I am
quite sure, that in 1947-48 much force was used. There was no force
used in 1949: the communists were busy throwing out people from the
party they forced to enter before.

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Once more about Orban, the nasty and related topics (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Eva Balogh and listmembers, Eva Balogh wrote a few days ago:

EB> Magda,
EB>         OK. Let me try again:

Well, let us try again.  But, if you permit I shall begin with the
beginning.  Our debate started with your reaction to Orban's speech at
the 23 October meeting of the Batthyany Foundation.

In 1:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

EB> [...]  The Fidesz which is supposed to
EB> be right of center is becoming more and more nationalistic and
EB> lately Viktor Orban, its party chief, said some very, very nasty
EB> things about the liberals.  Very nasty.  Meanwhile, the SZDSZ
EB> which was supposed to be left of center is losing its own
EB> identity in the coalition with the MSZP.  Thus, there is a huge
EB> gap in the middle.  The extremes are winning and their verbiage
EB> can hardly be distinguished from each other.

I shall try to recapitulate a few questions we touched in our debate.

1) About the huge gap in the middle

You used Orban's speech as an illustration to your opinion
that there is no real political force in the middle in Hungary now.

EB> [...] The Fidesz which is supposed to be right of center is
EB> becoming more and more nationalistic and lately Viktor Orban, its
EB> party chief, said some very, very nasty things about the liberals.
EB> [...]  Thus, there is a huge gap in the middle.  The extremes are
EB> winning and their verbiage can hardly be distinguished from each other.

I interpreted your words that -- as you were criticizing Orban's
verbiage very harshly -- you are including FIDESz in "the extremes".
And if there is a huge gap in the middle then FIDESz can surely be not
in the middle but somewhere at the far right.  Maybe I misunderstood
you.  In another letter you corrected me:

EB> And now, you are being carried away.  I didn't call the FIDESZ an
EB> extreme rightist party--please look again.  I am repeating now the
EB> umptiest time: Orban, who is the leader of that party is moving
EB> further to the right.

Well, if FIDESz is not an extreme rightist party, then IMHO possibly
there is some place for FIDESz in -- or at least near to -- the middle.

2) About the reaction of the leaders of the SzDSz to Orban's speech

You said:
EB> The SZDSZ leaders shouldn't be upset, because, says Magda, [..]

Sorry, Magda said nothing of the kind.  IMHO the SZDSZ leaders have
every right and reason to be upset. However, it is not the best method
to simply call Orban bad names as they did, calling his statement
"aljas es gyalazatos" or "felhaborito, keptelen hazugsag" ["perfidious
and disgraceful" and "outrageous and absurd lie"] and demanding that
Orban should apologize.  It is very unusual in political life to use
such strong words.

In the 16 November issue of Magyar Nemzet -- a moderate, definitely
not extremely rightist daily newspaper in Hungary, -- there is an
article by Laszlo Gy. Toth, a former member of SzDSz with the title
"Az SZDSz zuhanorepulese" ("Nose dive of SzDSz").  He says:

"A magyar politikai kultura legujabb melypontjahoz pedig akkor
erkeztunk el, amikor az SzDSz elnoke aljasnak es gyalazatosnak nevezte
Orban Viktor egyik beszedet.  Nem arrol beszelt, hogy Orbannak esetleg
miert es miben nincs igaza, hanem a felsobbrenduek iteletet hirdette ki."

An improvised translation:

"Recently the Hungarian political culture touched bottom when the
president of the SzDSz called one of Viktor Orban's speeches
perfidious and disgraceful.  He [Peto] did not say why and in what
sense was Orban not quite right.  He simply declared the judgment of
the superior people."

According to this I am not the only person who found the reaction of
the SzDSz leaders inadequate. Being upset, yes, but calling Orban
perfidious and disgraceful, is IMHO not the proper answer.

The question is still open why did SzDSz enter the coalition in 94?
You said:

EB> But I think it is highly unfair to claim that the SZDSZ joined the
EB> MSZP on the basis of ideology.  Or even worse, the "ideology of
EB> reprisals following 1956." Why did they join?  Some people claim that
EB> the SZDSZ leadership were/are power hungry.  I am more charitable.
EB> There was incredible pressure on them to join: both the press and polls
EB> indicated that this was the ardent wish of the population and the
EB> intellectual elite.  Maybe they didn't quite trust the socialists.
EB> In any case, I think it is highly unfair to connect the SZDSZ to
EB> the reprisals after the revolution.

It is nice to be charitable.  I remember some postings of you where
you considered the hunger for power as one of the possible reasons,
too.  As far as the "incredible pressure" and the "ardent wish" is
considered, I would call this -- sit venia verbo -- a legend.
Pressure of the press?  The press was -- and still is -- SzDSz
dominated and MSzP has the second strongest influence on the press.
So if the press pressed SzDSZ then it was mostly their own pressure.
And the polls?  It is highly unusual after a general election to say
that the wish of the population is better reflected in the polls than
in the outcome of the elections.  Maybe some people still remember
that the SzDSz said during their campaign that they are the only force
who can stop MSzP.

EB> But again, I have a little more understanding toward their floundering.

3) About the relation of SzDSz to the '56 revolution

EB> I am a little puzzled by Magda's repeated references to parties
EB> being the "successors of '56."

And I am puzzled why do you find this puzzling :-).  You see, I simply
referred to the program of SzDSz, dated '89.  There they listed their
political "ancestors" and forerunners, among others the '56 revolution
and Imre Nagy.

EB> I am not at all sure what's wrong with mentioning the fact that
EB> "nobody should monopolize the heritage of '56."

Nothing is wrong with it.  Nor did I say that anything is wrong with
it.  However, SzDSz didn't tell who wants to monopolize the heritage.
It is also difficult to me to interpret the statement that "the
heritage of '56 should not be used for political purposes", because
'56 was one of the biggest political events of our century, so what is
wrong in connecting it to politics?  Declaring themselves being
successors of '56, SzDSz itself used '56 for political purposes.  At
least they did so in '89.

What I found somewhat really strange is that the main message of SzDSz
on the 40th anniversary was summarized in

-- nobody should monopolize the heritage of '56
-- the heritage of '56 should not be used for political purposes

i. e. two negative statements, saying only what  should *not* be
done with the heritage of '56. When I said:

MZ> One could have expected more positive statements from a real successor.

I only wondered why SzDSz did not find more positive words about the
'56 revolution, one of the biggest events in this century.  Why SzDSz
found no words saying what *should be done* with the heritage.

A short remark about the citation from Piroska Szanto's book:

EB> From the text it seems that Piroska Szanto is referring here to
EB> the August days of 1968. Perhaps the Prague events haven't yet
EB> ended in catastrophe.

Sorry, a misunderstanding again.  Piroska Szanto is not referring here
to the August days of '68, the evaluation of their friends which put
'68 before '56 was in retrospect, after '68.

Closing my letter I would return to a question you put a few days ago.
I tried to clear the misunderstanding in an answer but you are still
insisting on an explanation. You wrote:

EB> I assume that according to Magda there has never been any
EB> difference between the two [SzDSz and MSzP].  And this is where we
EB> very strongly differ.

I wrote to you several times that this is a misunderstanding, I never
said that.  I do not think that there has never been any difference
between the two parties so why should I say or even imply so?  It is
not quite clear to me why you did not accept my answer and why you
insisted that I said what I never said.

EB> MZ >Look, you yourself are stating that SzDSz is losing its own
EB> MZ >identity (whatever this means) in the coalition with the MSZP.
EB>
EB> My question is the following: What do you mean by "whatever this
EB> means."  In my interpretation "whatever this means" refers to SZDSZ's
EB> "own identity."  Therefore, to me, it signifies that you are denying
EB> the fact that the SZDSZ had an identity to lose.  And if it doesn't
EB> have its own identity, then it must be indistinguishable from its
EB> coalition partner.
EB>
EB> Sorry, but in my mind a parenthetical expression like "whatever this
EB> means" signifies belittling whatever it refers to.  In this case the
EB> individual character of the SZDSZ.
EB>
EB> So, you see, I wasn't questioning my part of the sentence: "the SZDSZ
EB> losing its own identity.  I am questioning the part you added to it:
EB> "(whatever this means)."
EB>
EB> Perhaps this will clear up some of the misunderstanding.  So, I
EB> repeat: what do you mean by "whatever this means."

IMHO you are jumping to unfounded conclusions.  Let us assume I used
"whatever this means" for belittling it refers to (in that case the
identity of SzDSz).  It still would not mean I *deny* the very
existence of an identity.  And it definitely would not be equivalent
to such a strong statement that there has *never* been any difference
between the two parties.

A remark which possibly can be helpful to avoid future
misunderstandings: I never say "never"....

So let me recapitulate what I wanted to say.  I did not even want to
belittle the identity of SzDSz.  With "whatever it means" I only
referred to the fact that you did not define what you call the "own
identity" of SzDSz.  So when you were talking about the identity, it
was not very clear, at least to me, what you mean by that.

Sorry to give such a lengthy explanation. I tried to clear the
misunderstanding before but without any success.

And one more closing remark: please, take into consideration that
people living in Hungary are using English as a second language.
Maybe, we can express our thoughts not so clearly as somebody with a
Ph.D. in philosophy and whose mother tongue is English. Please, be
charitable with us.

Best regards
Magda Zimanyi

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
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