Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 650
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-04-27
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind)  87 sor     (cikkei)
2 Clyde Tolson Szucs (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
3 Women in Hungary (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Women in Hungary (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: police minister (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
6 Quite a few times now I have received old (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
7 penz (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
9 Great Expectations (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
10 Forward ho (mind)  264 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Another subject (Szucs) (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Who brings up the subject again? (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
15 Eva and Szucs, also Sam (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
16 Why not break in? (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
17 Horthy (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Great Expectations (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Who brings up the subject again? (mind)  112 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
23 A bit of correction (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Great Expectations (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Who brings up the subject again? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
26 Sap-szucser (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Horthy (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Alan:

Having read your post this eve has been quite interesting.  Brought back
quite a few recently 'enjoyed' emotions.  I too, have signed on several
months ago.  Difference; mine all happenned by accident; and I have never
had  any expectations.  In all, I have found a group of people that are
extremely knowledgeable, well rounded, with a relatively good sense of
humour.  (Some, who are also totally of the wall - to my way of thinking
that is.. but hey? who am I?  just one of many!) I must also tell you, that
many have become good friends; who's opions and tastes might often well be
far from my own; but whose persons, I have learned to respect if not admire
through sitting back and reading the debates and making an attempt to get to
know them.  (Of course, there are exceptions - the off the wall kind)

As such, your posting leaves me totally at an awe; allow me to attempt to
explain: (I have *not* learned to condense my thoughts in English really
well, so your patience is about to be tried)
.At 10:39 PM 4/25/96 -0000, you wrote:
        >Dear John,
        >I've been watching this for many weeks, too. All I can say is "DITTO!"
        >I originally signed on to this list to gather info on my family
history a
        >few months ago and I've been sorry to see all the disrespectful
chatter;
        >typically deleting 98% of what I have received not because of the
        >differring topics, but because of what you have referred to.

How can one delete 98% of a discussion list, and come up with such a strong
opinion?  Or, how can one determine that "all is disrecpectful", when one
has deleted that same 98% of the debates?

        > Although I
        >don't cook much,I found the recipe discussions a welcome attempt by
folks
        >to be more positve, though it seemed to be short lived. Tonight I bega
n
        >sorting the last few days deluge and thankfully, your letter was the
        >first I opened, again, despite it's subject title not being of primary
        >interest to my original interest here.
>
        >I am a hospital liaison for our county mental health service (kids
        >portion) and often find myself insisting on people in adversarial
        >situations, AT THE VERY LEAST, treating each other and myself with
        >respect so that eveyone involved has a reasonable chance at begining t
o
        >find some solutions to their conflict. Any other clinical skills,
        >positions of authority, charisma, or even legal power hold very little
        >weight until the respect is consistently expected and displayed.

The last two paragraphs, leave me at an equal loss.  You speak of commanding
respect; while you compliment a posting, which focuses on disrespect first
and foremost; mockery coming in a close second; and... I think that I'll
just stop at at. - and leave the rest to you?
>
        >In closing, I must say I have made the aquaintance of some very
        >thoughtful and helpful people on this list and I hope to continue to b
e
        >associated with you all......especially if we can begin to act
        >more..........you guessed it, respectfully. Again, thank you for you
        >excellent commentary!

In short (as much as short can be to me that is)...I must add; that the
group on this list has taught me more of  my country, it's history &
government structure of past  than ever did I learn (in Hungary that is) it
has provided a continuous update of the present scenario in the country; has
given a tremendous insight to the present government structure, economy;
stocks, all of which would be next to impossible to gather from my local
news media.  They have collectively forced me to face issues, at which I
continously felt like *the only* idiot; all the while, they have they have
managed to slide in language studies, emotions, displayed tolerance above
imagination; employed humour; (appreciated by some; hated by others; but
nevertheless, the display of humour was there) and; oh yes, the contributors
have also taught me, that there are stranger mentalities out there in the
world than I ever could have concieved possible; but above all, they have
taught me tolerance if not respect for them all - and, it did not all come
about by having thrashed 98% of contributors' finger magic.

They have also displayed tremendous narrow sighthedness in some issues;
people's mind, who spoke with sheer emotion; quite like this very posting
but you know what?  These are all people; live, human, breathing people
behind a computer screen, who bear thoughts, knowledge and emotions; some
can be fragile; others, not as you should well know; judging by your career;
.. so do you think that each deserve to be judged, criticized,
categorised... when 98% of the information at hand is missing?

That's all she wrote!
Aniko
+ - Clyde Tolson Szucs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01510101ada470d30387@[204.156.156.118]>, the fictional entity
calling itself Andras Szucs > once
again provides unintentional mirth when he spits out:

>
>If you want an other parallel, look at USA politics.
>On one hand we have a "Police Minister" (Kuncze), who
>is not at all unlike J. Edgar Hoover -- and on the other the man
>(Horn) who IN THEORY could override, perhaps IN THEORY
>even remove him, not unlike Kennedy.
You mean Kuncze likes to entertain dinner guests dressed as a woman? I
find this highly unlikely.

>Problem is, we all know what happened to Jack (and Bob)
>Kennedy when they clashed with the Hoover boys (plus).
I know what happened when Jack Kennedy and Bob Kennedy were unlucky enough
to come within close proximity of armed nutwings Lee Harvey Szucswald and
Sirhan Sirszucs, respectively. What, are you really Oliver Stone in real
life? Was that you on the grassy knoll? What did you do during the
Revolution of 1956? Is there any way we could convince you to get crossed
up sideways with Hoover's boys?
>
>Phantasy? One COULD say it is. Were it not a fact that Gyula
>Horn was only a hair fracture of his neckbone away from
>eternity in an "accident", just a night before ascending to
>power, when SZDSZ opposed Gyula Horn to become
>Prime Minister.
I'd say it's more likely phar-phetched paranoia. So what did Gyula Horn do
to earn Hoover's wrath? Wait -- I'll bet I know! HE was the one behind the
wheel that night at Chappaquidick!
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- What did you do during the revolution, Dr. P?
+ - Women in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

With all the changes that have swept Hungary in recent years, what does
that mean for Hungarian women? Are they better off, worse off or about the
same as they were under Communism? I'm interested in hearing your
perceptions of how women's status in Hungarian society compares with that
of women in western Europe, Canada and the U.S. What about the women's
movement in Hungary? Is the split between equity feminists and what that
Cincinnatus of the North Carolina Piney Barrens, Sen. Jesse Helms, might
term "those mean, militant lesbian" feminists mirrored among Hungarian
feminists? Would Camille Paglia ever make it in Budapest? How about
Adrienne Rich or Susan Faludi? Surely we ought to get some interesting
responses from the two Evas on this one.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Women in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My impression is, that  the situation of women got
worse, due to unemployment, cutbacks in nursery and
school spending, non-existence of cheap restaurants,
the generally more conservative - religious attitudes
to surface - by the way this process started before the
change of 89/90.   There are probably all fractions of
women's movement present - but as usual,  an average
woman has no time to spare for politics.
Eva Durant


>
> With all the changes that have swept Hungary in recent years, what does
> that mean for Hungarian women? Are they better off, worse off or about the
> same as they were under Communism? I'm interested in hearing your
> perceptions of how women's status in Hungarian society compares with that
> of women in western Europe, Canada and the U.S. What about the women's
> movement in Hungary? Is the split between equity feminists and what that
> Cincinnatus of the North Carolina Piney Barrens, Sen. Jesse Helms, might
> term "those mean, militant lesbian" feminists mirrored among Hungarian
> feminists? Would Camille Paglia ever make it in Budapest? How about
> Adrienne Rich or Susan Faludi? Surely we ought to get some interesting
> responses from the two Evas on this one.
> Sam Stowe
+ - Re: police minister (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai lists the shortcomings of the Hungarian system of law
enforcement:

> In Hungary, there is still nothing like the FBI, all criminal
> investigations are conducted by the same police force that provides the
> traffic cops and local law enforcement, and the boss is a cabinet member.
> The opportunities for abuse are tremendous, and if Kuncze is not a
> J. Edgar-type personality that's just an accidental piece of luck, the
> structure is still in place for one.

I hate to sound dense but it is not clear to me what aspect of the FBI
you consider worthy of emulation.  You also seem to contradict yourself:
if something like the FBI is desirable, but a personality like J. Edgar
Hoover can still abuse his power, then how can an FBI-like institution
protect Hungary from an overly ambitious local mini-Hoover?  And what
exactly is wrong with criminal investigations "conducted by the same
police force that provides the traffic cops and local law enforcement"?
This is how the NYPD is organized, for a city that is comparable in size
to Hungary (although, for obscure historical reasons, New York has a
separate transit police and housing police, to keep tabs on the subways
and housing projects, respectively).

The Hungarian law enforcement system, as far as I can see, suffers from
the same syndrome that tends to make all goverment operations so
incredibly inefficient there: overcentralization.  Local governments
have too little power, and every decision must be made at the center.
A central authority controlling all fire departments throughout the
country seems like a ridiculous idea.  In the U.S. every dinky little
cow town manages to have its local volunteer fire department without
any involvement at the state or Federal level.  The same goes for
local police departments.  These are ideal issues for local control.
The locals know exactly how much police or fire protection they want,
and how much they are willing to pay for.  One thing the new constitution
ought to do is to shift much more responsibility from the central
authorities to local governments.  This should also cut down on the
potential for the kind of abuse of power you are worrying about.

Finally, a question: we all know that the Worker's Militia (one of the
'armed thug' organizations used to prop up the ancien regime) has been
disbanded following the 1989 referendum.  There was another, far more
professional force trained under the late Kadar era for riot control
and general intimidation: the Revolutionary Police Brigade (Forradalmi
Rendorezred).  What happened to that outfit?  Is it still around under
a different name?  If so, who controls it?

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Quite a few times now I have received old (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

messages from the list (7 days +) re-sent to me, I wonder
how does this malfunction occur and if it happens
to other people, too?
Eva Durant
+ - penz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
Kedves Misi

>German Franks????? Nagyon erdekes. Uj penz?

>BTW, I would argue that the nemet marka is still preferred by most.


How absolutely stupid of me!  Of course I meant German marks.
re BTW;  in that case, what is preferred most?

Thanks for pointing this mistake!
Aniko


>>misi
>>
>>
>
>
>
+ - Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hali,


Aniko Dunford wrote:

>Dear John:
>
>Proactivity, and all it's positive attributes seems to have failed somewhere
>in the new and wonderful education system of ours  - if you are a typical
>example of the byproduct that is.

Just mocking what our glorious educational system has tried to instill in the
youth of America, for years.


>It is, and  has always been easy to sit back and: generalize,  judge,
>criticize .. the like;  ...  I've not seen a thing in the way of
>constructive *anything* stemming from you relating to the subject you so
>have critized &  judged - nor have I seen any positive comments to the
>people involved, whom you have chosen to categorize by utilizing
>generalizations in this instance; or for that matter, in any other instances
>throughout the last few months of postings which stem from your
>'finger-thoughts'.

You try to be reasonable with those who beg to differ, they don't listen.
You get angry at them, they get angry with you....etc. Nothing, too, positive
or constructive about it. Why bother???

>So, being a priviledged member of this group; if you truly had a way of
>stopping Szucs, as you so migthtily(sp) claim;

I never stated, I was out to stop Szucs. I made light of how people on this
list messed up on Szucs, in the first place. Anyone or group of people on this
list could've gotten together and ended this when it began, but insted of doing
that, they squared off and let fly, trying to rip Szucs apart, but as we've
seen, it hasn't worked and Szucs has dragged decent folk to his level and they
don't see that.

> I would have expected you to jump in at a time when it might really have made
a positive
>impact/difference to all involved.

I'm choked up, Aniko. I didn't that you are a fan of mine. Seriously, do think
anyone would've followed my lead?? I'm not the most "popular" on this list,
remember.

> As opposed to your prefered opposite of
>sitting back.... and biting your time ... when you can be most effective at
>criticising, judging and generalizing.  It is not like your posts were
>banned - or were they?

Never bothered posting during the volley of personal attacks.

>This tactic utilized by you; sorry to have to say; I find no much better
>than the tactics utilized by Szucs.

Tactic, Aniko?? Just being realistic.

>Surely to goodness John, *you* can do
>better!....

As well so many others on this list.

> and now... before your fingers decide to think for you, how
>about digesting the words above first?

I like your words Aniko and you're one of the reasonable ones on the list, but
I'm not out to be the martyr.

>Regards,
>Aniko

Viszont.


Udv.,
Czifra Janos
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Great Expectations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Aniko Dunford has pretty much summed up exactly what I was thinking when
I read the recent letter from the listmember who said he was ready to
leave in disgust and had wanted something different.

The only things that get discussed on Hungary list are the things that
people write in about, respond to, and...well, discuss!  If anyone of
the registered subscribers really wants to find out information specific
or general, then they should ask, please!  Don't wait, don't expect that
the list is like a library or cafeteria where the offerings are all out
on display or filed in a catalogue, so you can just take what you find.

I know we all (most of us) lead real lives, and that the net is only part
of what we do, and there are a host of reasons why someone might subscribe
and read Hungary list without necessarily becoming a regular poster, but,
then to appear on the screens of the rest of the list only to say, "I'm
resigning because you don't talk about what I want to talk about," seems
a little unreasonable.

In the years since Hungary list found a home at GWU, I've watched the
list evolve with the internet and it has distinct consequences.  Originally,
Hungary was limited to BITNET for its propagation, that meant that people
subscribed were almost all academics at universities, often technical
specialists, otherwise academic specialists in social-science disciplines
with Hungarian focus, or else in quite other areas but personally linked to
Hungary and the rest of the region.

Then came the transformation, new platforms, new networks, the spread of
the usenet, newsgroups, interconnectivity, and it has enabled practically
anyone with a modem and a decent PC to find a way to get through.  That has
dramatically broadened the pool of people who can read and sometimes contri-
bute to Hungary list, but it has removed that sort of "academic" style that
was once the dominant "culture" on the list.

That's perfectly natural, and as I've said before I would prefer to keep
the list as freewheeling as possible, within broad limits.  Again, as I've
said before, I recognize that there's a rhetorical tradition in Hungarian
polemical argument that is more vigorous than I personally prefer.  Up to
a point I am willing to tolerate it since I think it's the price you pay
for the open medium.  At present I'm still reluctant to tighten the limits
that I recently set still further.

I still think, like Aniko does, that we need to remember that it is a human
being on the other side of the screen, and I would add that whatever the
subject, when a debater uses ad hominem arguments it's usually taken as
evidence that he has no other reasons that support his position.  To grasp
the same tool in return, seems counterproductive.

Gabor Fencsik introduced a very relevant theme when he raised the issue
of free speech and the drafting of a new constitution for Hungary.  In
microcosm, similar issues exist right here on this discussion list.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

(listowner, for those who don't know me)
+ - Forward ho (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear fellow-listmembers,

I don't know is all of you read s.c.m regularly, but I was quite impressed
with this when it appeared there, forwarded from other original sources.
This strikes me as a perfect example of the most effective kind of protest
action--it is reasonable, it is backed up with other references and
supporting evidence, it is polite, and it looks to me like it would be
a good model for similar efforts to mobilize broader public opinion to
attempt to influence policy within states.

So, here it is, for what it's worth.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "Tove Skutnabb-Kangas" >
Organization:  Roskilde Universitetscenter
To: 
Date:          Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:59:24 +0100


Dear Colleague,


 We the undersigned are writing to you to ask for your support in
protesting the  violations of the linguistic human rights of the
Hungarian national minority in Slovakia.

This letter contains (1) a short description of the situation in
Slovakia, (2) a model letter, (3) possible addresses to send the
model letter to, and (4) a list of additional information one can
get on email.


 (1) DESCRIPTION OF SITUATION

      Slovaks and Hungarians have lived together in today's
Southern Slovakia for a millennium. Today about 600,000
indigenous Hungarians live in Slovakia, constituting over 10% of
the country's population. They live in a compact group and in
over 400 towns and villages form a local majority. Since 1920
Hungarians have been a national minority in Slovakia. The rights
of this community have been guaranteed by the great powers at the
Paris Peace Treaty on 10 February 1947.
      Although minority rights before and during communism were
considerably limited, since 1989 Hungarians have been subjected
to increasigly aggressive oppression. Compared to communism, the
1990 law on the official language of Slovakia curbed the
minority's language rights considerably. Then in November 1995 a
new law on the state language of Slovakia (in force since 1
January 1996) was adopted which has further restricted minority
language rights, effectively banning the use of Hungarian from
almost all public domains. For instance, until this year
Hungarian could be used in oral official contact with local
governments where Hungarians constituted over 20% of the
population. The new law, in violation of paragraph 2.b of article
34 of the Slovak constitution, has outlawed the use of Hungarian
in all official contacts, forbidding, among other things, the use
of the mother tongue between a Hungarian physician and patient.
As of 1997, the law can be enforced by extremely severe fines,
which can wipe out existing Hungarian-language publications and
broadcasts. While the state language law drastically limits the
use of minority languages, the Slovak government has broken its
repeated promises to pass a law on minority language use.
      Currently Slovakia is gerrymandering the administrative
units to eliminate Hungarian majorities through redistricting.
The Slovak cabinet approved a draft law on "the protection of the
republic," which could stifle media criticism of the government
and jail citizens for "spreading false information abroad harming
the interests of the republic." A new education law is in
preparation which could easily destroy Hungarian-language
schools.
      Hungarians are denied the right of self-determination. The
Slovak government uses intimidation and totalitarian means to
force them to assimilate or become second-class citizens. They
are the victims of language-based national discrimination.



 (2) MODEL LETTER

 Enclosed is a model letter which you should modify to your
liking or just extract it from your email if you have little
time. We ask you

      - to print the letter on your university stationery
      - to include all your titles with your signature
      - to say if possible why you are personally concerned
      - to mail/fax the letter to the President and/or Prime
Minister of Slovakia and if possible also to others who might be
able to influence the matter
      - to send a copy of your letter/fax to Tove Skutnabb-Kangas
or Michael Clyne, whoever is closer to you (addresses below).


 MODEL LETTER


 Dear Prime Minister/President:

      I write to you to express my concern for the language
rights of the indigenous Hungarian minority in Slovakia. The Law
on the State Language of Slovakia passed on 15 November 1995
withdraws considerable linguistic human rights to minorities,
which they enjoyed before, during, and after communism - until
1996. I believe that the new law, which appears to contravene
various UN declarations, the European Charter for Minority and
Regional Languages and the 1990 CSCE Copenhagen Document, runs
counter to the present international tide of support for
bilingualism and recognition of linguistic human rights of
national and ethnic minorities.
      The historical record and current experience equally seem
to show that restrictive language legislation, rather than create
social harmony, easily leads to disharmony and antagonism between
various national communities in a state. Enjoyment of human
dignity and language rights is best achieved for citizens of a
state by making it possible for them to use the language of their
choice, rather than the language mandated by a law which is
enforced by severe fines. Such countries as Switzerland, Finland,
Australia, Norway or Luxembourg have shown that it is state-wide
promotion of linguistic tolerance that effectively creates social
harmony between various language communities. On the other hand,
the movement towards making English the official language of the
USA, which is cited as an example in justifying the Law on the
State Language of Slovakia, is condemned by the overwhelming
majority of members of the Linguistic Society of America and is
seen by many experts as a possible cause of future social
conflicts.
      I urge you to modify the State Language Law or complement
it with a minority language law restoring and safeguarding the
use of minority languages in Slovakia. I am convinced that the
primacy of Slovak in Slovakia can be maintained and ensured
without weakening the ethnic identity and curbing the linguistic
human rights of minorities in your country.


 (3) POSSIBLE ADDRESSES

 Please fax or mail your letter to the following addresses:


 Kancelaria presidenta SR
 Michal Kovac, President of the Slovak Republic
 Primacialne nam. 1.
 811 01 Bratislava
 Slovakia, Europe

 Fax: 42-7-531 70 67 (42 is the country code, 7 the Bratislava
area code)


 Urad vlady SR
 Vladimir Meciar, Prime Minister of the Slovak Republic
 Nam. Slobody 1
 813 70 Bratislava
 Slovakia, Europe

 Fax: 42-7-315 484


 We suggest that your letter also be sent to any others who you
think may be able to influence the situation. It seems to be a
good idea to send the letter to your own prime minister and
foreign minister, and also some members of the European
Parliament from your own country if your country is a member of
the EU.
      Please share this information with other colleagues. We
have sent this letter to several email-lists and individual
colleagues but the more researchers we reach the better.



 (4) ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AVAILABLE VIA EMAIL

      If you would like to have more background information, we
have compiled a package of articles which we consider relevant.
The authors of the articles are in no way involved and in many
cases we have not even been able to inform them or ask for their
permission to circulate their articles (we apologise for that).
The information package contains the following:

 Texts:

 1. The Slovak State Language Law (1995) (translation)

 2. Language Rights in Slovakia (LINGUIST List: Vol-7-167;
2/2/96)

 3. Proclamation of the Hungarians in Slovakia (3/15/96)

 4. Analysis: "The new Law on the State Language of Slovakia:
Deliberate Ambiguity" by Istvan Lanstyak

 5. Article: "English Only's Cousin: Slovak Only" by Miklos
Kontra (submitted to the journal Acta Linguistica Hungarica)


 OMRI Daily Digests:

 6. US criticises Slovak human rights record (3/7/96)

 7. Troubled Slovak-EU relations (2/28/96)

 8. Slovak parliament approves administrative reform (3/25/96)

 9. Slovakia approves draft law on "subversion" (3/12/96)


 Translated articles from the Hungarian press in Slovakia:

 10. They humiliate children (1/24/96)

 11. Helplessness in the nationality schools (1/26/96)

 12. A statement of the Hungarian Coalition (2/2/96)

 13. Nobody teaches a dog to meow or a cat to bark (2/15/96)

 14. Physician turns vigilant linguistic policeman (2/9/96)

 15. The language police goes to the churches (3/12/96)

If you would like to have one or several of these, please email
one of the following people and specify the number(s) of the
item(s) you would like to have:

Phil Benson, email 
Richard Benton, email 
Kea Kangas, email 
Robert Phillipson, email 
Mart Rannut, email 

Michael Clyne, email ; address Monash
University, Language and Society Centre, Menzies Building,
Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia

Tove Skutnabb-Kangas, email ; address
University of Roskilde, 3.2.4, P.O.Box 260, DK-4000 Roskilde,
Denmark


Wishing that you can find the few minutes it takes to extract and
send the letter, we remain sincerely yours


Ulrich Ammon, Annamalai, John Baugh, Phil Benson, Richard Benton,
Birgit Brock-Utne, Chris Candlin, Kip Cates, J.K.Chambers,
Michael Clyne, David Corson, Teun van Dijk, Joshua Fishman,
Francois Grin, Hartmut Haberland, Rainer Enrique Hamel, Cees
Hamelink, Eduardo Hernandez-Chavez, Deirdre Jordan, Braj Kachru,
Yamuna Kachru,  Miklos Kontra, Cheris Kramarae, Willian Labov,
Leo van Lier, Angeline Martel, Sonia Nieto, Masaki Oda, Harold
Ormsby, Uldis Ozolins, Robert Phillipson, Dennis R.Preston, Mart
Rannut, Ivan A.Sag, Tove Skutnabb-Kangas, Peter Trudgill, Joan
Wink, Ruth Wodak.

Tove Skutnabb-Kangas, Roskilde University, Dept of Languages and
Culture, 3.2.4., PB 260, DK-4000 Roskilde, Denmark, phone 45-46-75 77
11/2740, fax 45-46-75 44 10, private: Troenninge Mose 3, DK-4420
Regstrup, Denmark, phone 45-53-46 44 12
email: 
+ - Re: Another subject (Szucs) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, S or G Farkas
> writes:

>
>Having gone trough a debate in the Hungarian language Forum with someone
who
>works for the government and who wrote a lot of his e-mail during working
>hours from his gov e-mail address, I disagree with Sam Stowe's
proposition.
>
>Although I obviously disagree with Mr. Szucs' ideas, I am not sure I
would
>want any government agency to analyze the employee's state of mind and
their
>speech done outside of their work. It just does not seem to be
>constitutional. However, this should not limit my freedom to telling him
off!
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
Gabor, he's free to express his point of view anywhere he wants. But he's
not free to do so on my dime. And I don't know that many of my fellow
taxpayers want to be in a position of subsidizing a bigot with their tax
dollars. How about the people who keep NYU afloat? Many of them are
Jewish. Do they feel comfortable with an anti-Semite on the payroll? And
how do you explain the fact that free speech for employees of the federal
and many state governments has, at different times over the past century,
been restricted by laws designed to prevent political activity by those
employees?

Even under the First Amendment, private and public institutions alike have
a right to decide that an employee's expressed views, whether made as a
representative of that institution or as a private citizen, are so at odds
with the values and mission of that institution that their relationship
can no longer continue. We're going through that here in North Carolina.
An aide to N.C. House Speaker Harold Brubaker referred to a group of
people lobbying for better pay for the janitorial staff at UNC-Chapel Hill
as a "bunch of n-----s and wormy kids." He said this to an Associated
Press reporter in a closed-door conversation which was overheard by
another reporter, who duly reported it in print. Speaker Brubaker is now
coming under fire to get rid of his aide. Free speech doesn't mean you
have absolute immunity from the consequences attendant upon exercising
that right.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, John Czifra
> writes:

>Giddy enough to laugh another pitiful attempt to rile me up, off.
>
>You kill me, Sam. I'm laughing hard, man. Stop it, please. Really,
you're,
>too,
>much.
>
>
>Udv.,
>Czifra
> "Sweet Light"
>    Jancsi
>john_czifra @ shi.com

I really blame this type of rhetorical lameness on Limbaugh. He has so
anaesthetized the rabid right-wingers in regard to thinking on their own
that all they're capable of is the "nyah-nyah" response. Sweet Light here
would never make it as a Goebbels for his movement. He's not even up to
Szucs-like standards of bellowing the same lines over and over again in
capital letters.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Alan Hackett
> writes:

>Dear John,
>
>
>I've been watching this for many weeks, too. All I can say is "DITTO!"
>
>I originally signed on to this list to gather info on my family history a
>few months ago and I've been sorry to see all the disrespectful chatter;
>typically deleting 98% of what I have received not because of the
>differring topics, but because of what you have referred to. Although I
>don't cook much,I found the recipe discussions a welcome attempt by folks
>to be more positve, though it seemed to be short lived. Tonight I began
>sorting the last few days deluge and thankfully, your letter was the
>first I opened, again, despite it's subject title not being of primary
>interest to my original interest here.
>
>I am a hospital liaison for our county mental health service (kids
>portion) and often find myself insisting on people in adversarial
>situations, AT THE VERY LEAST, treating each other and myself with
>respect so that eveyone involved has a reasonable chance at begining to
>find some solutions to their conflict. Any other clinical skills,
>positions of authority, charisma, or even legal power hold very little
>weight until the respect is consistently expected and displayed.
>
>In closing, I must say I have made the aquaintance of some very
>thoughtful and helpful people on this list and I hope to continue to be
>associated with you all......especially if we can begin to act
>more..........you guessed it, respectfully. Again, thank you for you
>excellent commentary!
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Alan Hackett (Kiss-Duzs)
>
>

He's an apologist for a anti-Semitic fascist, you twit! I hope you have
made friends with some of the more thoughtful people on this list because
you need all the help in that regard you can get. If you had paid
attention to any of the 2% of posts that you claim didn't offend your
precious sensibilities, you might have picked up on what the argument was
really all about. You'd vote for the Devil himself as long as he was
pleasant and well-spoken. Thank God you live in Canada.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Who brings up the subject again? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>Don't make fun with this Sam. I saw picture from 56, showing kids (~14-16
>years old) with arms. Just before I left for the US I saw a documentary
>about a trial where a 17 years old kid was convinced and later executed.
>
>Janos
>
>

I'm not making fun of it, Janos. The point is that the miserable little
worm blathers on endlessly about 1956, but will not respond to inquiries
about what his own role was in those events when he was old enough to have
participated in them. That's hypocrisy, in case you hadn't noticed.
Sending kids into battle is, unfortunately, not unheard of in this country
either. I had a great-grandfather who ran away and joined the Confederate
Army at age 15 and an uncle who went to Vietnam at the age of 17. If Szucs
were too young to have been aware of the events of 1956 as they happened
or hadn't been born yet, we could pass his ravings off as merely that. But
if he was old enough to have participated, but didn't, that puts him in a
class with Americans like Bill Clinton, Rush Limbaugh and Dan Quayle who
have all, at one time or another, advocated sending U.S. military
personnel into dangerous situations when they themselves to steps to avoid
putting their own lives in similar danger when they were younger.

The fact that Szucs will not address the question despite being asked over
and over tells me that he probably didn't do anything in 1956. His own
resume states that he entered a university in Budapest beginning about
1962. You know as well as I do that likely means his family, even if they
weren't party members, did nothing to rock the boat in 1956.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- You brought up a good question with this.
+ - Eva and Szucs, also Sam (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear All,
not having participated in the ongoing barkfest about the integrity of Eva
Balogh, I am not going to quote all postings I am referring to. I hope this
is OK with the "protocol".
Sz=FCcs must be very young or suffers from extended immaturity if he thinks
that an error in math, or historical recollection, or simply in judgment is
a lie. A lie can only occur involving facts, not truth. Truth is highly
relative, fact is pretty concrete. The water flows down, not up: that's a
fact. An object held in your hands falls down when you open your hand;
that's a fact. Szalasi or Rakosi were lice: not a fact, not even truth, but
a very widely shared opinion.  As history runs its course, the opinions
will change, depending what current or future political ideology will be
dominating in our unfortunate country.
So the "axiom" that if somebody knows the truth, he has to voice it, is
wrong, because nobody knows the truth, because truth does not exist.
Lets not blame ourselves (Hungarians) for not being able to tolerate each
other. Look at Bosnia, or Ireland, but also the USA, with her "freemen",
militias, Rush Limbaughs, skinheads, their "Christian Coalition" and other
groups carrying their errors in their names.
Look at the Germans, with their "ossies" and "wessies" , with their Greens
and Reds, etc., and look at any nation in the world. None of them are
better or worse than we are. But we are small, and any big dog can bark at
us, while we can only whimper.
One thing we do not need, is more enemies than what we already have. And
making every Hungarian or everybody thinking of himself as a Hungarian into
an enemy just because his or her opinion,  vision of the country's  future
(or past) differs from ours, is an attitude we can't afford. We can
reconstruct our nation by deeds and not yelling at each other. Read Bela
Liptak, listen to him, help him. Having lived in this country (USA) since
1949, I don't pretend to be familiar with present day Hungary. I have not
been there at the 1956 uprising, and don't know what the protagonists were
called, who they were. Following it from the safety of my modest US home, I
had nothing but admiration for them, and was deeply ashamed of sitting here
unable to help. I wrote desperate and insulting letters  to Eisenhower, the
Secretary of State, Time and Newsweek, and some of the local press. Ike and
Dulles had their offices answer in apologetic but totally ununderstanding
terms, the National media ignored me, the local papers published what I
wrote, and at least I had the satisfaction, that the majority of the
letters I received from Americans were on my side. For a few weeks
Hungarians were heroes and my children in school could explain to their
peers, that even though Hungarians were hungry, that connection was not the
origin of their name.
Please stop the bickering, and forget the idea that you are right! We
survived as a nation, as a state for 1100 years in this sea of strangers,
keeping our language, and other national assets which we cherish above
everything. That is right.

Karoly Csipkay
+ - Why not break in? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Extremists have been known on Hungarian Internet lists
not only as cowards trying to threaten with existential
interference, but have also tried, many times, to break
into computers of those with differing opinions.
"Stowe", if he is as brave as he would like to be,
might not want to waste his time with employers with
whom I have nothing to do (he must be confusing me with
someone else), but would go for the "real thing" and
break into my computer. If he is man enough, that is.
Stowe is a criminal at heart - should act out those
unconstitutional moves he is publicly advocating --
and go to jail.

Same goes for 1956. I have no idea (could not care
less, frankly) if he was even alive and doubt that he
saw with his eyes what happened in Hungary in 1956.
Where was Sam Stowe in 1956? How much does he
know about Hungary? Does he even speak the
Hungarian language?

I was not only alive, but was in Budapest, old enough
for taking part in, and YES I did in fact take part of the
SZABADSAGHARC.

Besides, I did not only prove that Eva Balogh lied about
SZABADSAGHARC, based on my eyewittnessing the
events, but cited 41 specific, well documented pieces
from literature on 1956 to prove that WE DID CALL 1956
SZABADSAGHARC IN HUNGARIAN, FROM THE
VERY BEGINNING.

Eva Balogh's lies I refuted with 41 pieces of historical
evidence, and by the sheer power of mathematics.

No matter how much "hot air" or "snow job" some
are trying here on FACTS to "undo" them, they
cannot be undone. Kadarism, essentially, was destroyed
when (for more than 30 years) the profound lie of the
regime, that the Freedom Fight was "Counterrevolution",
was finally PUBLICLY shattered.

Eva Balogh tries something similar, making 1956 a
"Socialist revolution" and denying that it was
SZABADSAGHARC, but a whole regime collapsed
for such lies. It took nothing for a lie that destroyed
a whole political regime, to totally ruin her credibility
as a "historian", and her proven incompetence in basic
mathematics to totally disqualify her from being
an "expert in economics".
+ - Horthy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Horthy

I do believe that there are very few, if any subscribers on this list who
not only have been alive under the Horthy regime, but were adult
participants in the goings-on of the times.
I agree with Eva Balogh, among others, that Horthy was not a bad man. We
never considered him a Fascist, let alone a Nazi. He was a violent
anti-communist, and only communists can blame him for that.
My family were mostly royalists, and resented his actions against the king,
rather than against the Habsburg. During most of his "reign", after an
initial rather bloody purge, he tried to protect a democratic image of
himself and the country, but in spite of the fact that he was rather
anglophile, could never overcome the  prejudices harbored by our Western
ex-enemies, who were totally in the pockets of the successor countries,
Czechoslovakia, Romania and Yugoslavia. The "Irredenta" drive of the time,
which was under his command, but was widely supported by the entire nation,
was a very effective device to keep the practically annihilated nation
together. This drive was totally justified as far as the adjustments to the
new frontiers went,  and was only supported by the equally hurt and
humiliated Germans, the betrayed Italians, and the Daily Mail in London. So
who can be surprised, that in W.W.II Horthy aligned himself more and more
with the "Axis", in spite of his distaste for the Nazi and Fascist methods.
We were barking up the tree of the West for twenty years, and what a wrong
tree it was. Nobody gave a damn about us, just as now.
That Horthy was the head of the "uri osztaly" was only too natural, just as
the Western leaders hail mostly from established, well-to-do families, who
are nominally incorruptible. From Gombos on Horthy disliked the evolving
radical right movements, but, and this is due to his idea of being
democratic, he didn't do anything against it. His anti-semitism was
anti-communism at the outset, since the 1919 Kun regime was entirely
Jewish, but later, as more and more Jews proved to be real Hungarian
patriots, his anti-semitic edge faded, the anti-communist  edge
remained.(As far as I heard, Horthy's wife had Jewish ancestry, not too far
back. Certainly only a rumor, which had been circulated at the time by the
anti-semites who were dissatisfied with the moderation of his anti-Jewish
measures). The "munkaszolgalatos" idea was a  device to keep at least the
younger Jews alive, and it was very depressing to most of us, that there
were Hungarian elements who happily lent themselves to commitment of
atrocities and co-operation with the Nazi butchers. Nevertheless, hundreds
of thousands of Hungarian Jews stayed alive, while in the rest of Europe,
including even France and other "Western", humane countries, nearly all
Jews. were lost. The character of the "nyilas" Hungarians became clear,
when they joined the AVO and other Communist enforcer groups, whose primary
aim was eradication of whoever they could  eradicate with impunity.
After W.W.I, there was hardly any choice as to who should be leader. The
good intentions of Karolyi, and the formation of a true Hungarian Republic,
a la Kossuth, have been made short shrift of. There could have been
aristocrats, like the Telekis, Apponyis, Bethlens, but none of them had the
know-how of how to organize and lead a military force needed to frame the
chaotic nation. Horthy was just as much a creation of the Paris peace
treaties, as Mussolini and Hitler. Had the American Congress endorsed
Wilson, and had Baldwin and Poincare been more tempered in their brainless
vindictiveness, and had the victors applied true self-determination for the
ethnic groups populating the area,  WWII would have been totally avoided.
Horthy was what he was. I don't see how any alternative could have put our
nation into a more favourable light with the West, considering the flaming
injustice they have done to us, which they were not going to correct.

Karoly
+ - Re: Great Expectations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks again to Hugh Agnew for his sensible and broad-minded reminder of
who we are and what we are doing on the list.  Disagreement--even pas-
sionate disagreement--is healthy and necessary in any democratic context.
But a *stable* and *rational* democracy also requires a minimum level of
civility.  Hugh, as is his right, sets that level lower than I would tolerate
if it were up to me.  I will simply add that it is not simply another human
being on the other end of the computer, but a human being whose views are
as deserving of a hearing as we think ours are.  If in fact they are not,
then maybe some of us are in the wrong line of work.

So--disagree, shout, yell, protest, whine, cajole, wheedle, object--but
let's do it like Americans, and not like some other peoples we could name,
whose contributions to political disourse of a civilized sort leave some-
thing to be desired.

In civility,
Be'la
+ - Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Aniko wrote to the following:


>In short (as much as short can be to me that is)...I must add; that the
>group on this list has taught me more of  my country, it's history &
>government structure of past  than ever did I learn (in Hungary that is) it
>has provided a continuous update of the present scenario in the country; has
>given a tremendous insight to the present government structure, economy;
>stocks, all of which would be next to impossible to gather from my local
>news media.

        I tend to agree with Aniko. Most of the time this list is of very
high quality. Just to sample the last few days: Gabor Fencsik, Frank Aycock,
and George Antony had a fascinating discussion on free speech which I not
only enjoyed but also learned from. (By the way, let me express my delight
that Frank decided to be active. We have been corresponding privately for a
while.) Andras Kornai's and Gabor Fencsik's discussion on the role of the
Hungarian Minister of Interior, I am sure, gives a better understanding of
that post and of that ministry. Here and there, of course, a bad apple shows
up but given the free-wheeling nature of the list, it happens surprisingly
rarely.

        As for Aniko's remarks about friendships forming around here, I can
only agree. I have found at least two sons of girlfriends from high school
on the Forum. We organized a reunion while I was visiting Hungary. I haven't
seen this particular person since I was about twelve years old. The son and
daughter-in-law are lovely people, early members of MDF, and I came away
from a wonderful evening with an 1989 medallion issued by MDF for the memory
of the martyrs of 1956. It is now in my safety deposit box. Interestingly
enough they had no objection to the "paid agent of SZDSZ" (;)) I received a
telephone call from Europe because for a couple of days my computer was down
and my elderly friend from Stockholm was afraid that I was gravely ill and
in the hospital because he knew that I had a pretty nasty cold. I will meet
somebody from Germany this August when she is visiting New England for two
weeks. I learned an incredible amount current German politics and economics
from her. I received the memoirs of one of such friend's father--I could
hardly put it down. The father was minister of justice in the thirties. I
received invitations from California to Nova Scotia. And I could continue.

       So, nobody should jump to conclusions about the worth of this list
just because of the garbage which was thrown on it in the last couple of weeks.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greetings,


Sam Stowe wrote:

>I really blame

Will Sam be a decent human being and cast some blame on himself for being a
part of this nonsense or will he hide under badge of "political correctness"
and blame others only because he is working for the forces of good, justice,
and the American way??

> this type of rhetorical lameness on Limbaugh.

Nooooooo! He shanked it and blames it on............Rush?!

> He has so anaesthetized the rabid right-wingers

Woof.

> in regard to thinking on their own that all they're capable of is the
"nyah-nyah" response.

"Nyah-nyah" prodding by Sam Stowe the first day, in a long while, John Czifra
airs his opinion results in an equally "nyah-nyah" response right back at him.
What you give is what you get. On the other hand Aniko Dunford gave a great and
kind explanation as to why she disagrees with me and, justly, gets a kind
response from me.

>Sweet Light here would never make it as a Goebbels for his movement.

Karnac, you amaze me with the knowledge you possess. No one is supposed to know
about my "movement". Shhhhh!!

So, Che, tell me more about me. You're really grasping at straws, Sam. If you
would put as much creative energy into adding something a little more to this
list than your false accusations, lack of knowledge of people, and unproven
blabberings of "He's a Nazi, She's a Nazi!!" the we'd all be happy.


Have a good weekend.

UDV.,
John Czifra
+ - Re: Who brings up the subject again? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote:

>>war, daddy. The information you so helpfully posted on the Web indicates
>>you graduated in the Class of 1962. So you should have been about, what,
>>12 years old at the time? Some of the older hands on here who actually did
>>something in 1956 can tell us whether a 12 year-old would have been old
>>enough to participate in the fighting.

        And Janos Zsargo:


>Don't make fun with this Sam. I saw picture from 56, showing kids (~14-16
>years old) with arms. Just before I left for the US I saw a documentary
>about a trial where a 17 years old kid was convinced and later executed.

        Janos is quite right. Very young kids in the confusion of the first
night (that is the night of October 23) remained somehow on the streets,
didn't go home, and joined older students and workers, and gun in hand,
fought all through the next two weeks or so. However, I am somehow doubtful
that our hero did anything of the sort.

        Further down Sam Stowe:

>I'd say it's more likely phar-phetched paranoia. So what did Gyula Horn do
>to earn Hoover's wrath? Wait -- I'll bet I know! HE was the one behind the
>wheel that night at Chappaquidick!

        I think it wouldn't hurt to explain Gyula Horn's role in 1956. Horn
was born in 1932 into a old communist family. His father served in the Red
Army of the Hungarian Soviet Republic of 1919. He was introduced into
illegal political activities by his older brother even before the end of the
war when he was distirbuting pamphlets published by the illegal communist
party. After the war, and especially after the the communist takeover in
1948/49, the Horn family fortunes rose with the change in regime: Horn
himself who had never gone to gymnasium but was apprentice but at the age of
17 he was enrolled in a "fast course": four years of high school crammed
into one. (I met a few of these people during my university years at the
University of Budapest and most of them were ill-prepared for university
studies. On the other hand, I knew one who was brilliant.) After one year of
so-called high school, he was shipped off to the Soviet Union, where he
received a degree in "finances." (The funny thing is that it is a well known
fact that Horn, although he maybe quite adroit in political dealings, knows
absolutely nothing about economics.) One is suspicious of this so-called
degree for at least two reasons: (1) the inherent weaknesses of any Soviet
course of study on "finances"; and (2) his Russian at this early stages
couldn't have been really adequate to graduate from an institution of higher
learning in four years. In any case, in 1954 he returned to Hungary and not
surprisingly he immediately received a high position in the Ministry of
Finance. He was still so employed when the revolution broke out. And here is
the rub! Gyula Horn in the middle of December 1956 volunteered to be a
member of the militia (pufajkasos--as they were called because of the
Soviet-styled quilted winter jackets they wore). The early Kadar regime was
inherently weak and so without any popular base. For almost two months or so
the Soviet-installed puppet government didn't even dare to organize its own
military force. All the dirty work was done by the Soviet occupying forces.
The people who "volunteered" in mid-December were the most despised and, in
my opinion at least, the lowest of the low. They were serving a foreign
power against 99% percent of the Hungarian population who either actively or
passively were on the side of the revolution. And Gyula Horn who, by that
time, was 26 years old, was one of them. Reason: according to his memoirs,
the revolutionaries got hold of his brother and killed him, apparently
because he was making propaganda for Kadar's new party, the MSZMP (Magyar
Szocialista Munkaspart), trying to organize some local chapter. In any case,
some people find it difficult to forgive Gyula Horn, I being one of them.
However, it seems that the majority of the Hungarian voters are not bothered
by that. Unfortunately, or fortunately,  memories of events of forty years
ago are fading from public consciousness, and the Hungarian voters in 1994
didn't hold Gyula Horn's role in 1956 against him and or against his party.
The MSZP received 54 percent of the parliamentary seats.

        And one more reference to Gyula Horn which might not have been clear
to some of the member of this list. Gyula Horn's accident and the
accusations of attempted murder. A week or so before the first round of the
1994 elections, Gyula Horn, being driven to Miskolc or Debrecen, on a
campaign trip, had a very bad car accident. His Volvo hit a parked truck.
The details of how the accident occurred are not very clear, but Gyula Horn
broke his neck. Luckily for him the Hungarian doctors patched him up, put an
odd-looking metal contraption on him to keep his head stationary, and his
accident gave an incredible boost to his party. According to good Hungarian
habit (inherited from the Rakosi-Kadar regime) rumors spread immediately
about foul play. The foul play had come, according to popular wisdom, from
the right: the government parties, which, knowing that their chances of
winning the elections were slim, simply wanted to kill the head of the MSZP.
        By that time I was active on the Internet and began studying
contemporary Hungarian politics by reading the daily news and reading
Hungarian weeklies. At the time, I was certain that the rumors were no more
than rumors, and the accident was genuine. I was also sure that even without
the accident the MSZP would have won at least the plurality of the votes.
(However, it is quite possible that the sympathy vote helped the MSZP to get
an actual majority which otherwise it wouldn't have had.) The interesting
switch in our bad apple's description of the Horn accident that the
"culprits" are no longer the right of center parties. Couched in some
ambiguity, it seems now that no other but the SZDSZ might be responsible for
Horn's accident. Vow!

        And one more thing. Kuncze is a decent man and is doing a good job
in his position. The current clash between the prime minister, on the one
hand, and others, among them a substantial number of his own party's leading
personalities, is about Horn's idea of establishing a separate police force
of about 150 people under the supervision of the Prime Minister's Office, to
control economic crime (abundant in Hungary). The junior government party,
in toto, is against the establishment of such a separate office, especially
under the supervision of the Prime Minister's Office. But even within the
MSZP there are a number of people who think that such an arrangement is
unnecessary and unwise. Although nobody is going to ask me, I also think
that an economic police force with very wide powers, should not be under the
prime minister's but part of the national police force or the office of the
chief prosecutor.

        I hope this will help.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The Oscar goes to..........hungary @ gwu. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, John Czifra
> writes:

>I never stated, I was out to stop Szucs. I made light of how people on
this
>list messed up on Szucs, in the first place. Anyone or group of people on
>this
>list could've gotten together and ended this when it began, but insted of
>doing
>that, they squared off and let fly, trying to rip Szucs apart, but as
we've
>seen, it hasn't worked and Szucs has dragged decent folk to his level and
>they
>don't see that.

No, but you made it pretty clear you're willing to attack anyone who takes
him on. Gee, Det. Columbo, I guess that means maybe you agree with what he
has to say. Sweet Light, you have a ways to go before you can lecture
Aniko, me or anyone else on the list about rhetoric. And isn't it funny
how you take more offense to our responses to Szucs than you do to Szucs
itself. Next time Joe Szalai sets you off foaming at the keyboard, there
will be lots of us on here ready to remind you about the time you tried to
be St. Sweet Light. Say, how are you coming with that
changing-fishes-into-loaves thing?
Sam Stowe
Sam Stowe
+ - A bit of correction (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I wrote a minute ago:

> Semmi sem ragadt ra'juk. (A Hungarian saying: "Nothing stcuck to
them."--doesn't sound as good as inthe original!)

Especially it doesn't sound right the way as I let it go. Meant to say:
"Nothing stuck to them." Doesn't sound as good as in the original!) But
basically it means: they haven't learned a thing!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Great Expectations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bela Batkay:

>So--disagree, shout, yell, protest, whine, cajole, wheedle, object--but
>let's do it like Americans, and not like some other peoples we could name,
>whose contributions to political disourse of a civilized sort leave some-
>thing to be desired.
>
>In civility,

        This is what amazes me, time and time again. Some of these people
have been living in Canada or the United States for at least two decades.
There are some who have been living here as long as I have: almost forty
years. And yet, they haven't learned what you call the "American" way. As if
they lived like the Unabomber in Montana--away from civilization. Semmi sem
ragadt ra'juk. (A Hungarian saying: "Nothing stcuck to them."--doesn't sound
as good as inthe original!)

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Who brings up the subject again? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>The people who "volunteered" in mid-December were the most despised and, in
>my opinion at least, the lowest of the low. They were serving a foreign
>power against 99% percent of the Hungarian population who either actively or
>passively were on the side of the revolution. And Gyula Horn who, by that
>time, was 26 years old, was one of them. Reason: according to his memoirs,
>the revolutionaries got hold of his brother and killed him, apparently
>because he was making propaganda for Kadar's new party, the MSZMP (Magyar
>Szocialista Munkaspart), trying to organize some local chapter. In any case,
>some people find it difficult to forgive Gyula Horn, I being one of them.

It is another negative record hold by the Hungarian, namely that such a man
can be prime minister. I just would like to ask the american readers of this
NS, if they can imagine, someone let's say who fought actively on the side
of the viet-kong later become the president of the US?

>However, it seems that the majority of the Hungarian voters are not bothered
>by that. Unfortunately, or fortunately,  memories of events of forty years
>ago are fading from public consciousness, and the Hungarian voters in 1994
>didn't hold Gyula Horn's role in 1956 against him and or against his party.
>The MSZP received 54 percent of the parliamentary seats.

Well, the MSZP was slightly tricky, they did not have nominee for Prime
Minister officially. Of course everybody or most people knew they (the MSZP)
just feel unconfortable with Horn's past.

J.Zsargo
+ - Sap-szucser (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01510113ada6e6be612e@[204.156.156.118]>, Andras Szucs
> writes:

>"Stowe", if he is as brave as he would like to be,
>might not want to waste his time with employers with
>whom I have nothing to do (he must be confusing me with
>someone else), but would go for the "real thing" and
>break into my computer. If he is man enough, that is.
>Stowe is a criminal at heart - should act out those
>unconstitutional moves he is publicly advocating --
>and go to jail.

If you have nothing to do with New York University and NASA Ames, why do
you claim affiliation with them on your Web page? I wouldn't break into
your computer even if I had the skills -- for the same reason that I
wouldn't go swimming in the treatment lagoon at my local sewage plant.

And you, pal, are a hypocrite for trying to advise anyone how to be a
"man" when you can't even post under your real name. Now, give us some
details about what you did during the revolution. If you were a freedom
fighter, give all of us some details --when, where and what you were
doing. We've got plenty of readers on here who were actually participants
in the thing and they should be able to tell us whether you're lying as
usual. Your biography still leads me to think that your family either sat
out 1956 or were fraternal socialist buddies of the watchsnatchers.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- I notice from your web page that your publication rate slowed
during the mid to late-1970s and after. Did Llinas carry you before that
or did you really screw your career up? I bet reading your personnel file
has the same effect on most people as sniffing nitrous oxide.
+ - Re: Horthy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Karoly wrote a very interesting piece about the Horthy regime with most of
which I can agree. Karoly is quite correct: Hungary relied entirely on  the
goodwill of the Entente powers and he is quite correct in saying that
Hungary was "barking up the wrong tree." However, in the late 1930s there
was a change of heart in England and France, especially as far as
Czechoslovakia was concerned. Some diplomats, both in England and in France,
had their doubts about the viability of Czechoslovakia from the very
beginning. England, after Munich, made no promises to Benes. The United
States was unhappy with the borders from 1919 on. English diplomats told the
Hungarians that they were not against the rethinking of the borders between
the two countries. As far Romania was concerned, western support was never
very strong. Moreover, Romania ended up on the German side. It is here where
I disagree with the generally correct assessment of Hungary's diplomatic
position. After Munich, especially after 1941-42 Hungary could have and
should have pursued a different policy. Hungarian losses, as a result of
German reprisals, may have been high but surely not higher than the loss of
the bulk of the Hungarian army on the Russian front. Admittedly, perhaps
more Hungarians of Jewish ancestry would have perished, but at least we
could have had held our heads high and would have ended up with some purely
Hungarian territories in southern Slovakia and northern Transylvania and
along the current borders. Today, the tensions between Slovakia and Hungary,
and Romania and Hungary would be a great deal less if the Hungarian
minorities in these countries had been substantially reduced after 1945.

        Eva Balogh

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