Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 846
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-14
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: To everybody (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Sorry (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: To everybody (mind)  97 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Klara Feher (1923 -1996) (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: To everybody (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
8 Hungarian Concert- Cleveland (fwd) (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: only one explanation (mind)  98 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: the nasty Orban (mind)  198 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Communist Reparations (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: the nasty Orban (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: To everybody (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: the nasty Orban (mind)  170 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:44 AM 11/12/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Dear listmembers,
>
>if you have(had) time and intention to read my and S.Stowe's posting about
>War Criminals, please answer my questions.
>
>i, Do you think I am making as nasty personal attacks as Sam does? Are
>these personal attacks nasty at all, or my English left me behind again?
>
>Some pearls from me and Sam:

Pearls?  Pearls??  Fool's gold is how I would describe it.  And asking
listmembers to chose between you and Sam is a bit much.  There's too many
negatives to deal with.

<snip>
>ii, What do you think about Sam's idea about sending the war criminals
>to third world countries as UN stuff? Am I the only one who feels this
>idea is odd, considering the possible attitude and the age of these people.

Sam's idea is a bit odd but not as odd as your concern for the well-being of
convicted war criminals.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Sorry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:36 PM 11/12/96 -0600, Andras Kornai wrote:

>It appears a large portion of HUNGARY escaped from my editor when it
>dumped core the other day, 1000 lines of quoted material to grace
>the next issue. This is the second time this happened in the past three
>years, and I apologize for the inconvenience. Will edit more defensively
>from now on (not inside my mailer but on a freestanding file). The actual
>content of my message (a response to Barna and others) seems to have been
>lost -- will recreate and repost, hopefully with no glitches next time.

Whew!  The Subjuct line of your post was, "Re: Poverty" and I thought that
you were trying to make a statement about the philosophy of poverty (or was
that the poverty of philosophy?), on HUNGARY, by including everyone's post.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:01 PM 11/12/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>>>There are as many versions of "socialism" as there are versions of any
>>>"-ism".  To dismiss them all is to show prejudice.
>>
>>Please enlighten me about the basic differences between some of these
versions.
>
>Sorry.  That's your job.  The thing about caring and sharing is that it
>works better if if comes from within.

This is where (I think) we agree. I am as much for caring and sharing as any
other human being (sorry, as much as an engineer can be). But when the
socialist state comes and tells me how to share-care, how much to
share-care, when to share-care, with whom to share-care, why to share-care,
then I find it repulsive.

>Am I supposed to be glad that there are factories where people can work all
>their life (if they're lucky!), and then die?

Glad, no. Considering the alternative, lucky maybe.

>>Also, in 1956 the Revolution was
>>started with the 16 demands of the engineering students.
>
>And?

Joe, give some credit to the engineers, please.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>Dear listmembers,
>
>if you have(had) time and intention to read my and S.Stowe's posting
about
>War Criminals, please answer my questions.
>
>i, Do you think I am making as nasty personal attacks as Sam does? Are
>these personal attacks nasty at all, or my English left me behind again?

Open appeals for everyone else's opinion can backfire on you. You may not
hear what you want to hear. But, it's a free country.

>
>Some pearls from me and Sam:
>
>Me:
>
>>If it was not joke than I congratulate. You set a new record, this was
your
>>biggest 'marhasag' (~ BS in English)  up to date. Why do I think so?
>
>Sam:
>
>>That you even pretend to think will come as a shock to most members of
>>this list. Thanks for teaching me "marhasag", though. I need this kind
of
>>technical vocabulary if I ever hope to adequately discuss in Hungarian
>>what passes for electro-chemical activity within the echoing, empty
>>confines of your skull.
>
>Me:
>
>>First, you might think those people in Rwanda and Kurdistan are
uncivilized,
>>unable to run their country, but still that is their land, home. You
have
>>no right to throw your 'garbage' there.
>
>Sam:
>
>>First of all, I doubt a wet-wipe like you gives two hoots in hell about
>>Rwanda and Kurdistan.
>
>Sam:
>
>>P.S. -- How's that big, fat chip on your shoulder doing?
>
>Me:
>
>>I have never made such personal attack against you. Don't you think you
>>should moderate yourself?
>
>Sam:
>
>>Here you overreach yourself and begin to lie like a cheap rug. Show some
>>moderation and moderation will be shown you. Until you do, you're still
a
>>two-bit punk who can't think for himself.
>
>Remark: Sam, if you think something should be added to this list, just go
>ahead!

If you think I'm going to waste my time digging up your past posts, you
overestimate wildly your impact on my net life. Besides, your insults
aren't clever or insightful the first time around. I doubt they age well.

>
>ii, What do you think about Sam's idea about sending the war criminals
>to third world countries as UN stuff? Am I the only one who feels this
>idea is odd, considering the possible attitude and the age of these
people.

"Staff", Janos, not "stuff." Are you talking about the attitude and age of
the war criminals or the attitude and age of the people they would spend
the rest of their lives caring for?

>
>J.Zs
>
>P.S: I don't say a mass-murderer cannot change by time, but I think
>it is not necessarily a usual everyday event.

The mass murderer's conversion on the road to Damascus isn't required.
Making him pay for his crimes in a meaningful way which doesn't demean the
standard of justice we uphold over his own is. Talk about hanging or
executing elderly war criminals is cheap.
Sam Stowe



"You can sum up the entire history of the
Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
-- Joe Queenan
+ - Re: Klara Feher (1923 -1996) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>
>Eva Balogh writes:
>
>>>Especially if compared with some recent award winners like
>>>Estrerhazy and Petri.
>>
>>        Well, first of all, let's at least spell a great contemporary
>>writer's historical name right: Pe'ter Esterha'zy. I assume almost
everybody
>>knows his family name. One hears the name and one immediately thinks of
>>Hayden! Yes, Peter Esterhazy belongs to that family but the Hungarian
right
>>doesn't appreciate the ring of his name. They hate him. But he is a
great
>>Hungarian writer and I am hoping that someone (Gabor Fencsik?) will
give us
>>a good portrait of him. I must admit that I don't know Gyorgy Petri's
poetry
>>and therefore I have no way of passing judgment on his award.
>
>Is this the Hayden who was married to Jane the red Fonda, currently Mrs
Turner?
>What is the connection to the Eszterhazy's?
>
>Regards,Jeliko


I believe Eva means Franz Joseph, who was court musician to the
Eszterhazys....

Regards, Agnes
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>Dear Bozoki Barnabas,
>
>> Bozoki Barnabas  > wrote:
>>
>> [...] I don't know what she did in the Rakosi era, but I
>> am not surprised that she joined the communists, many people oppressed
and
>> persecuted during the Horthy era did with the belief that they are
working
>> for a better society (Illyes, Meray, Dery, .. )
>
>I would suggest not to mention the three names together: there are big
>differences. Illyes was never a party member. And of course never
>mention Klara Feher together with the aforementioned three names: she
>was on a much lower level anyhow...
>
> I am
>also taking the liberty to write a few words about Tibor Meray.
>
>Most people know him as the biographer of Imre Nagy and as one of the
>reform communists being very active in the Petofi Circle debates in
>1956. However, we learned his name as the war correspondent of Szabad
>Nep -- the party's daily newspaper -- during the Korean War. In his
>most famous articles he stated that the American imperialists are
>fighting the heroic Korean people by throwing poisoned flies from
>airplanes into Korean territory. There was also a proof for this: he
>sent home photos -- they were duly published in Hungarian newspapers
>-- showing the flies. We did not see the poison on the photos but this
>did not matter, the proof was there...
>
>I have never heard of this, Magda.  For me Meray will always be the
author (together with Aczel) of Tisztito Vihar.  They freely admit that
they were great believers in communism, but they realized that what we
had had to be changed, as so many who were once believers.

Agnes
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:


>The mass murderer's conversion on the road to Damascus

Zing! Betcha.

P.S. This community service to the max idea of yours.... is it novel?

Bandi
+ - Hungarian Concert- Cleveland (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

An invitation to all to the JUBILEE CONCERT celebrating the '1100th Anniversary
of Hungary and the Bicentennial of Cleveland' on Sunday, November 17, 1996
3:30 p.m at SEVERANCE HALL (11001 Euclid Avenue, University Circle, Cleveland
Ohio).
The United Hungarian Societies of Cleveland presents the CLEVELAND WOMEN'S
ORCHESTRA with soloists Eric Johanson, Zoltan Marczy, and Alex Udvary
performing works of famous Hungarian composers -Liszt, Kodaly, Erkel, Lehar
and others. For more information or tickets please call 216-231-1111 or
800-686-1141.
Hope you can join us in this historic celebration.
Ticket prices range from $8-$25 dollars and can be ordered by phone (with a
credit card) or in person at the Severance Hall Box Office.
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:36 PM 11/12/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:

>True, and Eva Balogh does not know a thing about electric power
>distribution, but she is ready to argue that it must be privatized in
>order to be modernized,

        One doesn't have to know a thing about electric power distribution
when one discusses the pros and cons of privatization. Barna, mostly for
nationalistic reasons, argued against the privatization of utility
companies, but according to practically everybody who knows anything about
the state of Hungarian utility companies the privatization was necessary
because the Hungarian government simply doesn't have the money which would
be necessary to bring these companies up to standard. Surely, you wouldn't
call Mrs. Kosa, deputy president of the socialist party, exactly a horrible
liberal, unpatriotic creature, just because the other day, she, who is on
the left of the MSZP, reiterated that although she has problems with
privatization, she had no problem with the privatization of the utility
companies for the above mentioned reason!!!

>and she does not know elementary statistics but use it to prove her point.

        You know what, this is becoming tiresome and a cheap shot from a man
who cannot come up with anything else. I made a mathematical error. I am not
a statistician but that doesn't mean that I cannot use statistics to prove a
point.

>>        OK. Let's stop right here. Do you really think that Gyula Illyes
>>"was oppressed and persecuted" by the Horthy regime?
>
>I think of him as a person who spoke for the oppressed classes.

        Let's not change the premise. Was he personally oppressed? No one
argues about whether he spoke for the oppressed classes or not. (My God,
even your verbiage comes straight from the Rakosi regime.)

>I remember
>him as an author often quoted in the Rakosi area. He was decorated with 1st
>class Kossuth price in 1948 and again in 1953.

        Illyes, although received two Kossuth prizes, was not active during
the Rakosi regime. In fact, he was hardly published.

>I guess he would be a critic
>of the MSZMP-SZDSZ coalition if he were alive today, and would write
>"demagoguery" like the "Egy mondat" (One sentence)

        You are sinking too low, Barna! Illyes's poem is one of the
treasures of Hungarian literature as well as a powerful indictment of
tyranny. You try to compare Illyes's most moving, most powerful poem against
dictatorship to that piece of junk by Klara Feher? Or are you trying to get
*my* goat?

>His protege Csoori is
>not very kind to the government, even though he is on the Parliament's
>payroll. (I will get into trouble again)

        I used to have higher opinion of Csoori but lately I have less and
less respect for the man.

>On Meray:
>> he was motivated by the fact of the Holocaust as many survivors did.
>So he WAS one of the persecuted.
>
>[Tibor Dery biography delated]
>
>I thought he was Jewish, therefore he was persecuted, if he was not Jewish
>I stand corrected.

        Your knowledge of Hungarian history is simply pitiful.

>The treatment of
>factory workers, the "trogers" (quoting from your description) like Horn's
>family, or the family of that unnamed critic of the Horthy regime you hate
>so much. I suggest you read at least the first volume of the "Egy ember
>elete", then we discuss Kassak in more detail.

        I am at a loss who "the family of that unnamed critic of the Horthy
regime" is I hate so much. But I have no intention of discussing Kassak with
you. I am simply saying that you cannot learn history from writers who have
a definite viewpoint.

>OK, I will. Why don't you help to get those history books on the Internet,
>so I get them easier.

        I will, although they are not worth much. If your organization wants
to put books on CD why don't they at least pick some which are worth reading.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:32 PM 11/12/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:

>And we would not have heard all those interesting details about the Rakosi
>era. So Eva, please keep up the good fight, most of us appreciate it, even
>if we don't agree with you.

        Just speak in your own name! Thank God we don't agree on practically
anything. Instead of arguing with me, why don't you concentrate on sorting
out your political beliefs. If I add up everything you have said in the past
a right-wing radical emerges. Surely, a right-wing radical and I have
nothing in common.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Johanne Tournier mentioned someone referring to stakeholders in the
debate.  I believe that this is the crux of the debate.

It is all very well that Hungarian emigres living in the West consider
themselves stakeholders in Hungarian affairs.  However, so are, if not
even more, Hungarian minorities living in neighbouring countries.

It would be most unjust to give emigre Hungarians the vote while denying
it to minority Hungarians when:

(1) many of the latter would be just as eligible, having been born to
    parents of Hungarian citizenship or in Hungary itself, and

(2) the latter are outside of Hungary against their will whereas the
    former, mostly, out of choice.

I hope I do not need to elaborate how impractical and unfeasible it
would be to give all minority Hungarians a vote in elections in Hungary.
Hence, emigre Hungarians, arguably less deserving cases, have little
hope to get it.

George Antony
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:14 PM 11/12/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>>People talked
>>about poverty just as much then as now. People were disappointed in the
>>changes just as much as they are disappointed today. Everybody told me that
>>things were so bad that they couldn't get any worse! Today, apparently they
>>are worse. And when I mentioned the other day that the last time I was in
>>Hungary was in March, I was told that since then the situation had worsened
>>so much that I simply don't know what I am talking about!
>
>This is rather amazing.  On November 7, Eva Balogh tells us that things are
>hunky-dory in Hungary.  Then, four days later, she concedes that things are
>bad, indeed.  This apparent flexibility is just one of the benefits of not
>having an ideology.  What I still don't understand is her relationship to
facts.

        You should read a little more carefully. *I* didn't say that "things
are bad." People, Hungarian people, told me that things were so bad that
they couldn't get worse. Don't you see, in fact, what I was saying was that
one cannot trust "hearsay," because according to some people things are
always bad. And, I am afraid, Hungarians are prone to exaggeration. It is a
well known fact that living standards both in the Czech Republic and in
Poland are worse than in Hungary, (and we better not mention Romania and
Bulgaria) and yet, the population are less disgruntled. The other day I read
an interview with Philippe Labreveux, a U.N. official in charge of refugee
affairs in Hungary. Labreveux has been living in Hungary for the last two
years. The interviewer asked him to comment on his impressions of
Hungarians. Labreveux had to say the following: "It wouldn't hurt if you
didn't look at the events of recent years too tragically, in such extreme
fashion. You are prone to that, you know." Labreveux brought up the example
of Bulgaria where the economic situation is really serious. The interviewer
then asked: "Why should other people's troubles consol us?" Answer: "Because
you should see that your situation is not as bad as you imagine and tell
everybody. And that knowledge should fill you with confidence concerning the
future."

        Sure, there are problems but the situation is a great deal less
tragic than some people try to depict it.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
(Ferenc Novak) wrote:

>Georg Antony wrote on Sun Nov  3 19:36:34 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #837:

>>Ference (sic!) Novak wrote:

Sorry about the typo: twitchy fingers.

>>> Professing Marxist ideology was de rigeur until
>>> almost the end.
>
>>You have no idea what 'de rigeur' means.
>
>Sorry, but I do.
>
>>  Professing Marxist ideology was
>>far from de rigeur: in some cases it was very much the opposite (private
>>conversations in intellectual circles),
>
>I was not talking about * private * conversations and you know it.

This proves that you have no idea what de rigeur means: it refers to
social etiquette and fashionable behaviour, not something imposed by
an authoritarian government.

> in other cases it was an unavoidable
>>rite (e.g., talking to the personnel manager of most insitutes or
companies
>>about the possibility of any promotion).
>
>This is not what I meant either.  Please don't play dumb.

I did not say that this is what you meant.  This is what I believe
that the extent of using Marxist sloganeering by ordinary people was.

>>> Hence the idea of serving, however indirectly or
>>> unwittingly, the communist cause.
>
>>That is guilt by association: anyone who lived under a communist regime,
>>accepted its authority as evidenced by not rebelling against it, and at
>>some time uttered anything against his/her conviction to avoid
>complications,
>>anyone who did that was 'serving the communist cause'
>
>This is just more of the same obfuscation.
>
>>This leaves as untainted upstanding people only those who either did some-
>>thing against the regime (counted in the hundreds out of some 10 million
in
>>Hungary) or those who left the country not to be tainted.
>
>>I presume you are among the latter: in this case, your continuing efforts
to
>>make intellectuals who continued to live in Hungary look tainted is merely
>>a self-serving way of dealing with your own frustrations.
>
>Thanks for the diagnosis, unhelpful and ignorant as it is.

It speaks volumes that you are not responding with logical arguments
but with indignant expressions of misunderstood pride.

>>> Also, to be declared a traitor to Marxism,
>>> one would have to be a declared Marxist.
>
>>In the eyes of the regime, people were Marxist, by default, unless proven
>>otherwise.
>
>You may know something I don't.  Being on the other side, I was in no
>position to know what the regime thought.

You must have kept in splendid isolation from the regime not to have
been told, ad nauseam, that you are expected to be one of the new socialist
type of men.  This may also explain why your impressions of the social
contract and life in Hungary have been so off the mark.

> What I know is that  up until the
>very last years of the Kadar regime it was virtually impossible to publish
>any work in the area of economics, politics, philosophy and sociology from
a
>non-marxist viewpoint.

Oh, well, at least here is proof that you hate the Kornai family as a
matter of principle, totally unaffected by Janos Kornai's writings.
His "A hiany gazdasagtana" (Economics of shortage) is hardly Marxist,
still it was published by the publishing house specialised for economic
and legal books (Kozgazdasagi es Jogi Kiado) in 1982, with Kadar still
firmly at the helm.   You are also unaware of microeconomic texts
published and used in university curricula that used, e.g., the concept
of diminishing marginal returns, something that at the same university,
in the political economy course was declared a bourgeois aberration of
thought.

Neither seem you have heard of, let alone actually read, Mozgo Vilag or
Elet es Irodalom.  This is not a matter of shame, it merely illustrates
the limits of your experience with life in Hungary under Kadar.

George Antony
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         You know what, this is becoming tiresome and a cheap shot from a man
> who cannot come up with anything else. I made a mathematical error. I am not
> a statistician but that doesn't mean that I cannot use statistics to prove a
> point.

I know, just as cheap as you telling me that there were no surfs in
Hungary after 1848.

>         Illyes, although received two Kossuth prizes, was not active during
> the Rakosi regime. In fact, he was hardly published.

I will check this.

>
>         You are sinking too low, Barna! Illyes's poem is one of the
> treasures of Hungarian literature as well as a powerful indictment of
> tyranny. You try to compare Illyes's most moving, most powerful poem against
> dictatorship to that piece of junk by Klara Feher? Or are you trying to get
> *my* goat?

This is an other of your cheap shots. I said it before I have the highest
regard for Illyes and admire him. I think the "Egy mondat" is a classic,
I just tried to imply that one has to use strong language to get the
message through in general, no reference to Klara Feher.

>         Your knowledge of Hungarian history is simply pitiful.
Thanks.

> >OK, I will. Why don't you help to get those history books on the Internet,
> >so I get them easier.
>
>         I will, although they are not worth much. If your organization wants
> to put books on CD why don't they at least pick some which are worth reading.

Finally a positive statement. They are open for suggestion and would
welcome your opinion on what to put on.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: the nasty Orban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well, I found my match in Magda Zimanyi! When she answers she does a
very good job, indeed. She does the necessary research, by checking sources,
including such samizdat literature as *Beszelo," and her tone for the most
part is measured. I am sure that the facts she presents are one hundred
percent correct. It is not the facts we are disagreeing on: it is the
interpretation.

        Let's start with the exact quotation of Viktor Orban which the
leadership of the SZDSZ found so upsetting. Because Magda found an earlier
reference in BLA which is first reporting of the incident, I am going to use
her quotation:


>A mai fiatalsagot elsosorban az 1994-ben megalakult
>BLA> kormanykoalicio razta fel, amelyet a kadari hatalomnak a
>BLA> megtorlasok ideje alatt mutatott ideologiaja kapcsolt egybe.

        First, a translation: "First and foremost, today's youth was
awakened by the establishment of the government coalition, which is held
together by the ideology of [post-revolutionary] reprisals of the Kadar regime.
"

        Magda Zimanyi objects to the reactions of the SZDSZ leaders,
especially those who were actually the victims of those "reprisals." They
were the ones who made nasty comments, like "aljas es gyalazatos" or
"felhaborito, keptelen hazugsag" ["perfidious and disgraceful" and
"outrageous and absurd lie"]. The SZDSZ leaders shouldn't be upset, because,
says Magda, their party did decide to form a government with those
post-communists whose former party, the MSZMP, was responsible for those
atrocities.

        But I think this interpretation is faulty. No one denies that the
MSZP is the successor to the MSZMP, and I don't have to repeat here my
distaste for them or my disappointment over the SZDSZ's decision to join the
MSZP as junior partner. But I think it is highly unfair to claim that the
SZDSZ joined the MSZP on the basis of ideology. Or even worse, the "ideology
of reprisals following 1956." Why di they join? Some people claim that the
SZDSZ leadership were/are power hungry. I am more charitable. There was
incredible pressure on them to join: both the press and polls indicated that
this was the ardent wish of the  population and the intellectual elite.
Maybe they didn't quite trust the socialists. In any case, I think it is
highly unfair to connect the SZDSZ to the reprisals after the revolution.

>If SzDSz is the real successor of 1956 then they are really strange bedfellows
.

        Yes, they are strange bedfellows but not because of 1956. They are
because the SZDSZ's ideology--and here I am talking about the late 1980s and
early 1990s--was not socialist but liberal and they were the most consistent
supporters of market economy and privatization.

> They were involved with some dissident activity, that is quite
>correct.  And there are some people in SzDSz who vere imprisoned after
>1956 (Arpad Goncz, Imre Mecs, Miklos Vasarhelyi, Istvan Eorsi) and I
>have respect for some of them.  However, if you look into "Beszelo",
>the newspaper edited and published illegally by the founding "fathers"
>then you see that some of the founding "fathers" came from extreme
>leftist, Maoist groups.  Some others came from the so-called
>"Lukacs-ovoda", i.e. the pupils of Lukacs, the Marxist philosopher. So
>the circle of "Beszelo" had real ties to the communists even when they
>were involved in some form of dissident activities.  If you read
>"Beszelo" carefully you can also find that the founding "fathers" were
>rather enthusiastic about the '68 "Prague Spring", however, they were
>much less enthusiastic about '56.  You can find interesting documents
>of this in "Beszelo" and e.g. in the "Bibo Emlekkonyv".

        I am not in the position to peruse the issues of *Beszelo," but I am
sure that Magda Zimanyi is not distorting the facts. I am sure that there
were people among the dissidents who approached politics from the left of
"existing socialism." I am also sure (no, I know) that there were many among
them who were followers of Lukacs. (Again, I don't think that I have to
remind people of what I think of Lukacs. I am sure they remember.) But
again, I have a little more understanding toward their floundering. These
people are lucky enough to be younger than us. They don't remember first
hand the Rakosi era; they have no personal remembrance of '56 and the
reprisals. They didn't have the privilege of studying abroad, like myself,
for example. Their heads were filled with all sorts of Marxist verbiage.
They were struggling to develop their own ideas; they were struggling with
the idea whether "existing socialism" could be somehow improved. I find that
a normal reaction. Moreover, I think that it is somewhat easy to criticize
them with a hindsight. I am asking you: who would have thought in, let's
say, 1986 that the Soviet empire would collapse within a few years. Nobody!!
And given the widespread belief that "we will have to live with what we got"
it would have been odd to advocate a political stance which had no
relevance, given the Soviet hold on Eastern Europe.

>"Our young friends break with us, because we put '56 before '68.  They
>consider us old fools who are mumbling about 1848 [the freedom fight
>of Hungary in the 19th century].  They are probably right, this is how
>it should be.  It doesn't count that we have seen the miracle
>[of'56]."

        I am not terribly surprised about that either. From the text it
seems that Piroska Szanto is referring here to the August days of 1968.
Perhaps the Prague events haven't yet ended in catastrophe. I happened to be
in Hungary during those events and my mother told me something like that:
"Perhaps, the Czechs will succeed because they are clever. I wish them the
best. But I'm afraid they will not be successful. It doesn't matter how you
try to get out of their clutches [meaning the Soviets] with as much finesse
as the Czechs or with arms in hands as us." It is very possible that their
young friends thought that "we blew it," perhaps if Imre Nagy didn't try to
get out of the Warsaw Pact, if he didn't allow the formation of a coalition
government then, perhaps then, a "socialism with a human face" could have
succeeded. OK, they were naive.

>-- nobody should monopolize the heritage of '56
>-- the heritage of '56 should not be used for political purposes
>
>One could have expected more positive statements from a real successor.

        I am a little puzzled by Magda's repeated references to parties
being the "successors of '56." Surely, 1956 was against a vicious
dictatorship and for freedom. In political terms, multi-party system, and in
foreign policy, neutrality. The whole revolution was so short-lived that the
differences in political outlook--who was a socialist, who was a
conservative, who was a liberal, and who was a right-radical, etc.--simply
couldn't emerge. But the revoution as a whole is a symbol for the yearning
of freedom. I am not at all sure what's wrong with mentioning the fact that
"nobody should monopolize the heritage of '56." There are people who do try
to monopolize it and especially making vicious attacks on the so-called
"reform communists." The fact is that it was a national effort and we were
all in it, including the reform communists--although some of course were
ready to go further than others--without ideological differences. Exception
was, of course, the rather small hard-core of the communist party.

>In your letter you compare Orban to Torgyan (they would make really
>strange bedfellows if your comparison would hold water):
>
>BE> As it stands, until very recently the smallholders, under the
>BE> leadership of Jozsef Torgyan (talking about demagogs!!) was the
>BE> largest opposition party.  [...]  The Fidesz which is supposed to
>BE> be right of center is becoming more and more nationalistic and
>BE> lately Viktor Orban, its party chief, said some very, very nasty
>BE> things about the liberals.  Very nasty.  Meanwhile, the SZDSZ
>BE> which was supposed to be left of center is losing its own
>BE> identity in the coalition with the MSZP.  Thus, there is a huge
>BE> gap in the middle.  The extremes are winning and their verbiage
>BE> can hardly be distinguished from each other.

        Calling this a "comparison" between Orban and Torgyan is a bit
far-fetched, don't you think? I didn't compare Orban to Torgyan but I did
say that lately Orban is moving to the right and making more nationalistic
references. I think that is correct. Moreover, his constant attacks on the
SZDSZ is counterproductive. A few years ago the SZDSZ and the FIDESZ were
the most likely parties to carry the torch of liberalism, maybe even
together in a coalition. Today, partly because of the SZDSZ's wrong decision
to join the socialists and partly because of Orban's constant attacks the
gap is becoming wider and wider between the two parties. I consider that a
tragedy, the death of a moderate politics in Hungary.

> Look, you yourself are stating that SzDSz is losing its own identity
>(whatever this means) in the coalition with the MSZP.

        I assume that according to Magda there has never been any difference
between the two. And this is where we very strongly differ.

>Maybe you can
>tell us what is the glue of the bondage between the two parties.

        Peto pretty well outlined his ideas the other day in an interview.
He thinks that since the SZDSZ is much more viciously attacked by the
opposition than the MSZP it is unlikely that they would be accepted by the
opposition. He seems to be afraid that they would not even get five percent
of the votes and thus they might not even get into parliament. That is a
very good possibility and I'm afraid the coalition ruined the SZDSZ's
chances of ever forming a strong liberal grouping.

>And
>I am sorry if you don't see the difference between the verbiage of
>Torgyan and Orban.  There are some other opposition leaders as well
>whose verbiage can be easily distinguished from that of Torgyan.

        Somehow people who sympathize with the opposition think that Torgyan
is bad and all the others are moderate politicians. I'm afraid that doesn't
seem to be the case looking at it from a distance. Sure, Torgyan is a joke,
but that joke and his party are leading the pack: they would get the most
vote if the elections were held yesterday. And all other politicians on the
right think that the more they sound like Torgyan the more popular they will
be. Unfortunately, that simply means that they are moving toward the right,
trying to outdo Torgyan, while the SZDSZ is clinging to the MSZP because
there is no other choice as far as they see it. Yes, one can blame the SZDSZ
for joining the coalition but one doesn't have to call them the torchbearers
of the ideology which produced the reprisals after 1956. It is a vicious
thing to say.

>IMHO pretty close to Peto's use of strong words about Orban: but I am
>afraid when you call Orban's speech nasty and FIDESz an extreme
>rightist party then you have been really carried away...

        And now, you are being carried away. I didn't call the FIDESZ an
extreme rightist party--please look again. I am repeating now the umptiest
time: Orban, who is the leader of that party is moving further to the right.
That is not the same as "an extreme rightist party." And yes, Orban's speech
was nasty and the members of SZDSZ, especially those who themselves were
victims of the reprisals, were rightly outraged. I would have been if I had
been in their shoes.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:43 PM 11/13/96 GMT, you wrote:
<<snip>>
>I hope I do not need to elaborate how impractical and unfeasible it
>would be to give all minority Hungarians a vote in elections in Hungary.
>Hence, emigre Hungarians, arguably less deserving cases, have little
>hope to get it.
>
>George Antony
>
>

George -- for you information, here is a recap of what is and what is not
legal or feasible right now:

Any Hungarian citizen, even emigres who are dual citizens, are allowed to
vote, as long as they are physivcally in Hungary on the day of the election.
Any discussion, therefore, about what is right or wrong is moot.

Any Hungarian citizen, even tourists, students, even diplomats working at
embassies and consulates, etc., who are not physically in Hungary are denied
their opportunity to  vote.  Any discussion, therefore, about paying taxes,
bearing the burden of the vote, is moot.

Any Hungarian citizen, who is absent from their home district, can receive
the equivalent of an absentee ballot (blue card) and vote, as long as they
are inside Hungary.  Any discussion, therefore, about what is impractical or
unfeasible is moot.

The discussion should be about setting up a system of absentee voting by
mail or by physical visit to the nearest Hungarian diplomatic post.  Its
that simple.

The discussion is not about who is or who is not a citizen of Hungary.
There are a whole set of laws that govern that question.  This discussion is
about those Hungarian citizens, already in possion of their citizenship
papers and/or passports, who can not vote except by hopping on an airplane
to cast a ballot.

best regards,

Charlie Vamossy
+ - Re: Communist Reparations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, aheringer >
writes
>In article >,  says...
>>
>>A few years ago I heard there was a Hungarian government program to
>>reimburse families for property seized illegally by the Communist
>>government after WWII. Is that program still valid or pending?
>>
>So far I know, it is still valid.  Why don't you ask the Hungarian
>Consulate.
>
>Agnes
>>The contest doesn't always go to the strong or the race to the swift,
>>but that's how you should bet.
>>
>
The right to entitlement under the programme may have been terminated by
now, I'm not sure.  However, you may be interested to know that
compensation was made by way of coupons (nowhere near the value of the
property seized).  There was no direct compensation of property.  The
coupons could be used for purchases in shops (like currency) but their
most important function was for purchase of shares.  One of Antall
government's goals was to permit ordinary Hungarians to buy shares in
companies being privatised or companies traded on the Budapest exchange.
As far as I know, privatisation plans for industries, banks etc. still
contain an allowance of a certain percentage of shares available for
purchase with compensation coupons.

Karen Dunn Skinner
Grad Student, Law Department
London School of Economics

+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:01 PM 11/12/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 05:22 PM 11/11/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
><snip>
>>        As for the relationship between ordinary Romanians and
>>Hungarians--as opposed to politicians--my understanding is that they get
>>along just fine for the most part.
>
>Perhaps they do but I can tell you that one of the most common cusses in
>Hungarian, that I'm aware of, if I remember correctly, is: Azt a kurva
>roma'n e'des anyja'd.  Imagine what the cussing would be like if they didn't
>get along!

        Maybe I led an extremely sheltered life but I have never heard this
before.

        On the other hand, I heard personal stories about Hungarians
bicycling in Transylvania and enjoying Romanian hospitality everywhere they
went. My informant picked up quite a bit of Romanian along the way which I
am sure helped. He claimed that ordinary folks of both kind are fine--it is
the nationalistic politicians who are the culprits.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

When a piece of music or poem or novel is created it begins an independent
life, independent of its creator. This is the only way we can enjoy the
music of Wagner, without agreeing with his Nazism or the philosophical
writings of Lukacs without worrying about his behaviour as a war commissar
in 1919. Klara Feher's best works can also be enjoyed without taking into
consideration  her character or political behaviour today.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         Just speak in your own name! Thank God we don't agree on practically
> anything. Instead of arguing with me, why don't you concentrate on sorting
> out your political beliefs. If I add up everything you have said in the past
> a right-wing radical emerges. Surely, a right-wing radical and I have
> nothing in common.
>

I will stop arguing if you stop commenting on my posts, and you can keep
your advices to yourself. If your judgment of your students was as bad as
your judgment of my poltical views I feel sorry for them. Good thing
I don't have my pictore on the net, because then you would call me a
skin-head too.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:21 AM 11/13/96 -0500, Eva Balogh, chastising Barna Bozoki, wrote:

<snit>
>        Just speak in your own name! Thank God we don't agree on practically
>anything. Instead of arguing with me, why don't you concentrate on sorting
>out your political beliefs. If I add up everything you have said in the past
>a right-wing radical emerges. Surely, a right-wing radical and I have
>nothing in common.
>
>        Eva Balogh

I'm perplexed.  I haven't read anything by Barna Bozoki in Hungarian on
FORUM, and I don't remember any of his previous posts to this list, but what
he has written in the last couple of weeks doesn't sound like right-wing
radical stuff to me.  It doesn't even sound right wing.  Surely, not
everything is lost in translation.  Can you unperplex me?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:48 PM 11/13/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:

>I know, just as cheap as you telling me that there were no surfs in
>Hungary after 1848.

        I simply corrected you at the time you made the mistake. You, on the
other hand, following the lead of some well known rightwingers, bring it up
as a proof that my opinions must not be trusted simply because I made a
mathematical error once.

>This is an other of your cheap shots. I said it before I have the highest
>regard for Illyes and admire him. I think the "Egy mondat" is a classic,
>I just tried to imply that one has to use strong language to get the
>message through in general, no reference to Klara Feher

        All right, let's try it again. What you were saying was as follows:
"Since you, Eva Balogh, considered Klara Feher's writing on the plight of
Hungarian pensioners demagogic, you must also consider Gyula Illyes's `Egy
mondat a zsarnoksag ellen' also demagogic." That is what you were saying, my
fellow. And, yes, I repeat it: you are sinking extremely low in order to try
to discredit me and my ideas. Worse than that. You are trying to accuse me
of lack of democratic convinctions or rather you are questioning my absolute
abhorrance of dictatorship. And I resent it.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>         Sure, there are problems but the situation is a great deal less
> tragic than some people try to depict it.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>


I am interested in trends. In this weeks HVG for instance, these are
not promisisng, investment is going out, privatisation money is
disappearing etc. Don't just look at the shiny surface, but take the
rotten substructure into account. Same applies to most other
countries... I am not happy about it, if capitalism looked a bit more
promising, I'd have an easier life - even literally...

+ - Re: the nasty Orban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(M. Zimonyi: -cut-)
>  They were involved with some dissident activity, that is quite
> correct.  And there are some people in SzDSz who vere imprisoned after
> 1956 (Arpad Goncz, Imre Mecs, Miklos Vasarhelyi, Istvan Eorsi) and I
> have respect for some of them.  However, if you look into "Beszelo",
> the newspaper edited and published illegally by the founding "fathers"
> then you see that some of the founding "fathers" came from extreme
> leftist, Maoist groups.  Some others came from the so-called
> "Lukacs-ovoda", i.e. the pupils of Lukacs, the Marxist philosopher. So
> the circle of "Beszelo" had real ties to the communists even when they
> were involved in some form of dissident activities.  If you read
> "Beszelo" carefully you can also find that the founding "fathers" were
> rather enthusiastic about the '68 "Prague Spring", however, they were
> much less enthusiastic about '56.  You can find interesting documents
> of this in "Beszelo" and e.g. in the "Bibo Emlekkonyv".
>

Far from me to defend the SzDSz but
Opposition Marxists were not particularily favoured by the regime,
they were at the same receiveng end of the "law".
What I remember of "Beszelo" was a very freely selected material from
a very wide opposition political spectrum. Some of them I liked, some
of them I detested.  I had a chance to acquaint myself
with the ideas of some people who became founding members of SzDSz
(modestly avoiding namesdropping) and you can rest assured, they were
as pro-capitalist as you can get.

My impression of Fidesz - from inadequate data admittedly - is that
it has a personality cult of Orban, and a sharp shift to the right
that totally distroyed what was fresh and new about it at the
beginning.  Now it is just an other tired rightwing party there are
more than enough of those... everywhere...



+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:21 AM 11/13/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        You should read a little more carefully. *I* didn't say that "things
>are bad." People, Hungarian people, told me that things were so bad that
>they couldn't get worse. Don't you see, in fact, what I was saying was that
>one cannot trust "hearsay," because according to some people things are
>always bad. And, I am afraid, Hungarians are prone to exaggeration. It is a
>well known fact that living standards both in the Czech Republic and in
>Poland are worse than in Hungary, (and we better not mention Romania and
>Bulgaria) and yet, the population are less disgruntled.
<snip>

>        Sure, there are problems but the situation is a great deal less
>tragic than some people try to depict it.

If it is true that "Hungarians are prone to exaggeration" and that "the
situation is a great deal less tragic than some people... depict", then
would it be fair to say that the situation in Hungary wasn't all that bad
before 1989?

I'm afraid that Eva Balogh is getting close to the belief that criticism of
political/economic systems that she disagrees with is valid, and criticism
of political/economic systems that she approves of is misplaced.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:21 PM 11/13/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>>Perhaps they do but I can tell you that one of the most common cusses in
>>Hungarian, that I'm aware of, if I remember correctly, is: Azt a kurva
>>roma'n e'des anyja'd.  Imagine what the cussing would be like if they didn't
>>get along!
>
>        Maybe I led an extremely sheltered life but I have never heard this
>before.

The expression may not be universal.  It was very common among the young
male Hungarians in Hamilton and Toronto.  Then again, you may have led a
sheltered life.  Also, sometimes the young men cooled their language when
women were around so you may not be fully aware of some of the more spicy
expressions.  And they were spicy!

>        On the other hand, I heard personal stories about Hungarians
>bicycling in Transylvania and enjoying Romanian hospitality everywhere they
>went. My informant picked up quite a bit of Romanian along the way which I
>am sure helped. He claimed that ordinary folks of both kind are fine--it is
>the nationalistic politicians who are the culprits.

Unfortunately, it's always like that.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> This is where (I think) we agree. I am as much for caring and sharing as any
> other human being (sorry, as much as an engineer can be). But when the
> socialist state comes and tells me how to share-care, how much to
> share-care, when to share-care, with whom to share-care, why to share-care,
> then I find it repulsive.
>

That's why you need a *democratic* socialist system. In this capitalist
one you work where you find work, you live where you can afford,
etc. At least in a *democratic* socialist one you have a say in
deciding what you need and a say in deciding what you do. And based
on present  capacities, and technology you'd have more choice.
In capitalism your free choice is linearly related to the size of
your bankaccount.



> >Am I supposed to be glad that there are factories where people can work all
> >their life (if they're lucky!), and then die?
>
> Glad, no. Considering the alternative, lucky maybe.
>

I detect inconsistancy. In capitalism you are lucky to do what you
are forced to do?



+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>        All right, let's try it again. What you were saying was as follows:
>"Since you, Eva Balogh, considered Klara Feher's writing on the plight of
>Hungarian pensioners demagogic, you must also consider Gyula Illyes's `Egy
>mondat a zsarnoksag ellen' also demagogic." That is what you were saying, my
>fellow.

No I did not say that. What I implied: Your overreaction to Klara Feher's
article is ridiculous and it is based on your prejudiced biased view of me
and in a lesser extent on your dislike of Klara Feher. I expected that you
will see this if you think that most of our cherished literary works use
dramatic strong language. If you would come across this article by reading
it in a newspaper like me, I doubt that you would have reacted so
strongly.  You got angry because you made up your mind that I posted this
as a propaganda against the government . You are wrong, I posted it
because I was shocked by the content of it and wanted to know how serious
is the problem the article described.

>And, yes, I repeat it: you are sinking extremely low in order to try
>to discredit me and my ideas. Worse than that. You are trying to accuse me
>of lack of democratic convinctions or rather you are questioning my absolute
>abhorrance of dictatorship. And I resent it.

And I resent that you read all this into my writings, but I am not going to
argue about it.

I apologize to the other readers of the list for forcing you to read this
ugly stuff. I hope you read my posts with a more open mind and saw, that I
never made any reference to Eva Balogh's character or political views.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

  on Nov 12 20:46:12 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #845:

>>Do you
>>enjoy playing the role of Dr Jekyll on FORUM and Miss Hyde on HUNGARY?
>>You should have the courage to accuse people directly, rather than hiding
(no
>>pun intended) in the English-language list some of your intended targets
>>don't (or can't) read and therefore can't respond to.  This is not a very
>>honorable thing to do.
>>
>>Ferenc
>>
>>PS.  I would like to know who "all the right-wingers" on FORUM are?

>        First of all, I would like to straighten you out on who is militant
>and who is unfair on these lists. You, for example, have delivered quite a
>few, ugly blows at your opponents. These blows more often than not were
>personal, under the belt, attacks on other people. I for one do not engage
>in such attacks, personal or otherwise.

I am amazed at how you can project your own misdeeds on others.  But why
didn't you answer my question?

Ferenc
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:59 PM 11/13/90 +0000, Eva Durant wrote:

>In capitalism your free choice is linearly related to the size of
>your bankaccount.

This is why this system works. Everyone tries to increase this size to maximum.
>
>
>> >Am I supposed to be glad that there are factories where people can work all
>> >their life (if they're lucky!), and then die?
>>
>> Glad, no. Considering the alternative, lucky maybe.
>
>I detect inconsistancy. In capitalism you are lucky to do what you
>are forced to do?

Who is forcing anyone? Last time I checked people lined up at factories
advertising job openings.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Nov 12 10:10:13 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #845:

>Dear listmembers,
>
>if you have(had) time and intention to read my and S.Stowe's posting about
>War Criminals, please answer my questions.
>
>i, Do you think I am making as nasty personal attacks as Sam does? Are
>these personal attacks nasty at all, or my English left me behind again?

Janos,

As you should know by know, Sam's debating style is, hmm, somewhat
unconventional.  I confess to being rather intrigued by his brilliant, though
confrontational technique.  Unfortunately, he tends to use his facility with
the language to abuse, rather than persuade his debating partners.  While
occasionally amusing, his mode of carrying on a debate is often rude,
sarcastic and downright uncouth.  My advice: if you don't like his style,
just ignore him and he'll go away.

Ferenc

Ferenc
+ - Re: the nasty Orban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Eva Balogh and list members,

Eva Balogh has criticized Viktor Orban for his 23 October speech.

At 06:24 PM 11/10/96 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote:
>>At 01:46 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>>
BE>> The Fidesz which is supposed to be right of center is becoming
BE>> more and more nationalistic and lately Viktor Orban, its party chief,
BE>> said some very, very nasty things about the liberals. Very nasty.

I asked you to explain why you consider FIDESz "becoming more and more
nationalistic", and especially: what were the "very, very nasty
things" Orban Viktor said about the liberals? You wrote:

BE> Well, of course, I wasn't there, but I read about the event in
BE> several newspapers.  They all indicated that Orban said that
BE> what keeps the two governing parties together is the ideology
BE> which suppressed the revolution.  I would call this rather nasty
BE> considering that the founding "fathers" of the SZDSZ were
BE> certainly not in any way involved in the governing of the
BE> country since 1956.  On the contrary, they were the very few
BE> people in Hungary who were at all involved with some dissident
BE> activity.  So, don't you think that this was pretty nasty?
BE>
BE> Here is the Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany's own summary of this
BE> piece of news:
>
BLA>Az SZDSZ politikusait es a part parlamenti frakciojat felhaboritotta
BLA>Orban Viktornak az 1956-os forradalomrol megemlekezo het vegi
BLA>beszede. A Fidesz elnoke a Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany megemlekezesen
BLA>egyebek mellett azt mondta: a mostani koaliciot a kadari hatalomnak a
BLA>megtorlasok ideje alatt mutatott ideologiaja kapcsolja egybe. Peto Ivan
BLA>partelnok szerint ez a nyilatkozat "aljas es gyalazatos, erthetetlen
BLA>es egyben indokolhatatlan... a beszed szinvonala a magyar politikai
BLA>kozeletben eddig soha nem latott melyseget surolt". Mecs Imre
BLA>elmondta, ot halalra iteltek 1956-ban, egy evig ult a siralomhazban.
BLA>Ezert kikeri maganak, hogy Orban vagy barki mas igy nyilatkozzon.
BLA>Szerinte ez nem torzitas, hanem felhaborito, keptelen hazugsag.
>
BE> I actually had written the English-language summary before I
BE> rechecked my source. I was pretty close, wasn't I?

I agree that there were nasty things said in this citation.  E.g. it
is quite unusual to call your political opponents' views "aljas es
gyalazatos" or "felhaborito, keptelen hazugsag" ["perfidious and
disgraceful" and "outrageous and absurd lie"] if you don't agree with
them.  Of course this nasty words were not said *by Orban* but by the
leaders of SzDSz *about Orban*.

I looked into the Web pages of Batthyany Alapitvany, too, and found
references to the original speech of Orban (21 Oct), not only the
reaction of SzDSz you cited. According to BLA:

BLA> Az 1956 utan szuletett generacionak nincs kivel megbekulnie, s
BLA> meg kell kulonboztetni a forradalom ket szakaszat: a szabadsag
BLA> es a hazaarulas mozzanatat - mondotta Orban Viktor, a Fidesz
BLA> elnoke a Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany unnepi megemlekezesen.  A
BLA> partelnok arra figyelmeztetett: a megbekeles leple alatt a mult
BLA> konzekvens elfedeset celozzak meg bizonyos ideologiak
BLA> kepviseloi.  A mai fiatalsagot elsosorban az 1994-ben megalakult
BLA> kormanykoalicio razta fel, amelyet a kadari hatalomnak a
BLA> megtorlasok ideje alatt mutatott ideologiaja kapcsolt egybe.
BLA> Orban szerint ma mindennel fontosabb a nemzeti osszefogas
BLA> megteremtese, amely a forradalomban olyan hatekonyan mukodott
BLA>     (Magyar Nemzet: Megengedhetetlen... 4.o)

 You are calling nasty what Orban said because

BE> the founding "fathers" of the SZDSZ were certainly not in any
BE> way involved in the governing of the country since 1956.

 Nobody said they were.  Orban talked about ideology, not government.
But SzDSz is involved in the governing now together with MSzMP, Gyula
Horn, Rezso Nyers, etc.  If SzDSz is the real successor of 1956 then
they are really strange bedfellows.

BE> On the contrary, they were the very few people in Hungary who
BE> were at all involved with some dissident activity.  So, don't
BE> you think that this was pretty nasty?

 They were involved with some dissident activity, that is quite
correct.  And there are some people in SzDSz who vere imprisoned after
1956 (Arpad Goncz, Imre Mecs, Miklos Vasarhelyi, Istvan Eorsi) and I
have respect for some of them.  However, if you look into "Beszelo",
the newspaper edited and published illegally by the founding "fathers"
then you see that some of the founding "fathers" came from extreme
leftist, Maoist groups.  Some others came from the so-called
"Lukacs-ovoda", i.e. the pupils of Lukacs, the Marxist philosopher. So
the circle of "Beszelo" had real ties to the communists even when they
were involved in some form of dissident activities.  If you read
"Beszelo" carefully you can also find that the founding "fathers" were
rather enthusiastic about the '68 "Prague Spring", however, they were
much less enthusiastic about '56.  You can find interesting documents
of this in "Beszelo" and e.g. in the "Bibo Emlekkonyv".

Another interesting example can be found in the memoirs of Piroska
Szanto (paintress, widow of the poet Istvan Vas).  The title of her
memoirs is "Akt", I am now scanning it to put it in digital form into
the Hungarian Electronic Library (Magyar Elektronikus Konyvtar,
http://www.mek.iif.hu).  Recently I have sent the chapter of the book
about October 1956, title: "Forradalmi szvit" into the HIX document
store (SENDDOC archive).  I can suggest to everybody who can read in
Hungarian to read the book.  It is an interesting document and
entertaining writing.  Piroska Szanto writes:

"Fiatal barataink szakitanak velunk, mert '56-ot tobbre tartjuk, mint
'68-at.  Ven hulyek, motyognak, 1848-rol, ugye?  Biztos igazuk van, ez
a vilag rendje.  Szamit az, hogy mi lattuk a csodat?"

An improvised English translation:

"Our young friends break with us, because we put '56 before '68.  They
consider us old fools who are mumbling about 1848 [the freedom fight
of Hungary in the 19th century].  They are probably right, this is how
it should be.  It doesn't count that we have seen the miracle
[of'56]."

If the leaders of SzDSz think that it is quite unjust what Orban
said then maybe they should try to prove in what respect is the party
the real successor of the revolution of '56.  Instead of simply
putting some nasty labels on Orban because of his criticism.

As far as the relation of SzDSz to the '56 revolution is concerned I
found interesting the speeches at the memorial session of SzDSz a few
days before the 40th anniversary.  The most emphasized statements were:

-- nobody should monopolize the heritage of '56
-- the heritage of '56 should not be used for political purposes

One could have expected more positive statements from a real successor.

In your letter you compare Orban to Torgyan (they would make really
strange bedfellows if your comparison would hold water):

BE> As it stands, until very recently the smallholders, under the
BE> leadership of Jozsef Torgyan (talking about demagogs!!) was the
BE> largest opposition party.  [...]  The Fidesz which is supposed to
BE> be right of center is becoming more and more nationalistic and
BE> lately Viktor Orban, its party chief, said some very, very nasty
BE> things about the liberals.  Very nasty.  Meanwhile, the SZDSZ
BE> which was supposed to be left of center is losing its own
BE> identity in the coalition with the MSZP.  Thus, there is a huge
BE> gap in the middle.  The extremes are winning and their verbiage
BE> can hardly be distinguished from each other.

 Look, you yourself are stating that SzDSz is losing its own identity
(whatever this means) in the coalition with the MSZP.  Maybe you can
tell us what is the glue of the bondage between the two parties.  And
I am sorry if you don't see the difference between the verbiage of
Torgyan and Orban.  There are some other opposition leaders as well
whose verbiage can be easily distinguished from that of Torgyan.

You asked:

BE> I was pretty close, wasn't I?

IMHO pretty close to Peto's use of strong words about Orban: but I am
afraid when you call Orban's speech nasty and FIDESz an extreme
rightist party then you have been really carried away...

Best regards
Magda Zimanyi

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
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