Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 871
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-12-09
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: To everybody (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: To everybody (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: To everybody (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: To everybody (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: To everybody (mind)  81 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: To everybody (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: To everybody (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: AUTO Justice in Hungary (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: To everybody (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: To everybody (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Hungarian long step (was Hungarian beer) (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Hungarian beer (was: MALEV) (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: To everybody (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: poetry title (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: To everybody (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: The English Patient (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: To everybody (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: To Canadians only (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: To everybody (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Finnish related to Turkish? (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: The English Patient (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
23 God of Hungarians? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: To everybody (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: To everybody (mind)  103 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: To Canadians only (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: HAL: *** OMRI Daily Digest *** Dec/9/96 (fwd) (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: To everybody (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
29 Garbage? (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: AUTO Justice in Hungary (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: AUTO Justice in Hungary (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: To everybody (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: Rakosi (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: To everybody (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Garbage? (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Communist or not? (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Rakosi (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: To everybody (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ferenc,

Thanks for your support.  I seem to be getting a lot of support from the list.

I work with Americans and play tennis with Hungarians on the weekends.  We are
all getting older and freely mix Hungarian and English.  I hardly ever write
Hungarian.  I do pretty good translating water resources articles from
Hungarian to English.  Not from English to Hungarian.  I sing the Hungarian
Anthem from my heart.  Next time, I will try to remember the two (2) d's in
"a'ldd".

You can read Szalai's recent posting where he talks about the communist
activists in his family (Not someone who joined up to get needed medicine for
a sick child, a loan for an apartment, etc.  You know how those bastards
pushed people around.  I thank God for not having to live under those
conditions.  I wish nobody had to.).  He states that his family did not have
any bad experiences between 1945-1956.  They were in the driver's seat.

The United States did not and does accept communists.  I suspect, that it is
the reason why his family went to Canada.  For a while it appeared that the
1956 uprising (szabadsagharc) would be victorious.  Some communists left the
country, pretending to be escaping from communism.

I hardly ever go to church.  I tell my co-workers that I am not religious.
They tell me that I am.  I do believe in God and I am proud of Hungarians.
They refer to me as the Hungarian but they also consider me a good American.

The communist garbage on this list (three, maybe four at most) tries to
intimidate the rest of you from openly discussing the terrible crimes they
committed against our people.  I am not concerned about this garbage fooling
you, but we have a lot of young people on this list who know little of our
history between 1945-1956.  You show pride in your heritage and they call you
racist, extremist, etc.  I think that it is time to turn the table on them.

Some of you suggested that even if I was correct, there is no need to call
anyone garbage.  What do you call people who defend and sympathize with people
who tortured and killed Hungarians?

Best wishes.

Istvan
----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Ferenc Novak
Sent:  Sunday, December 08, 1996 5:48 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

  on Dec  7 10:50:26 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #869:

>At 01:36 PM 12/7/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

><snip all the hatred)
>>Isten ald me a Magyart....  (God bless the Hungarian....)
>>
>>Istvan


>Lippai ur,
>
>"Isten a'ld meg a Magyart..." is how the Hungarian anthem starts!
>                 ^^^
>

No, Szalai ur; the correct version goes:

"Isten, a'ldd meg a magyart"          (with two "d" and one lowercase "m"
characters)
               ^             ^
One should know how to spell before correcting others...

>Have you ever thought of getting a life
>that didn't revolve around god and love of country?

>Joe Szalai

I don't know about Canadians but most Americans would find your remark at
least weird.  Yes, there are plenty of people for whom God and country are
important, and maybe even central points in their lives.  Why does it bother
you?  I would prefer such people any day over those whose life revolves
around love of money or power.

Ferenc
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:05 PM 12/8/96 -0400, you wrote:

>A thoughtful comment . . . and you are right, to a point. As usual, from my
>Canadian standpoint, I can see both sides of every issue. I am willing to
>admit there are exceptions to every rule - for example, I am sure there are
>many people who grew up under communism - I am thinking especially the
>people who have been denounced on this List as *kadarjugend* - with whom I
>have a lot of sympathy. I don't think that people who grow up under an
>unjust system are all equally guilty of perpetuating it, and as far as I
>know there weren't the injustices under Kadar and (who came after Kadar?)
>that there were under Rakosi. I suspect that the brutality of the Rakosi
>regime and under Stalinism everywhere was at least partly a reaction to the
>brutality inflicted by the Germans, although I also recognize the part
>played by Stalin's paranoia.
>

I agree that Rakosi had a great deal of pent up hate but i don't think it
had a lot to do with Hitler.  Rakosi was arrested and jailed in Hungary long
before Hitler came to power in Germany and when he was freed he went
directly to Moscow, returning to the Soviet controlled part Hungary in the
late fall of 1944.  His many years in Hungarian jails may be a better
explanation why he was more cruel to Hungarians than even the Russians
demanded him to be.  Finally, even they had enough of him and called him to
Moscow and forced him to turn over at least part of his power to a more
humane and more Hungarian communist, Imre Nagy.  The power struggle, of
course, continued and Rakosi forced Nagy out of the Government and even
kicked him out of the party.


>However, I also can't help thinking of the truth behind my idol, Barry
>Goldwater's statement, "Extremism in defence of liberty is no vice;
>moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." I also can't help
>feeling that there is a lot in that statement that you would agree with,
>Joe. The people (I think) that Istvan is denouncing are the people who would
>be apologists for a brutal regime. I think that people like him, who
>actually lived through the Rakosi regime, understandably feel
>uncompromisingly opposed to it and feel that anyone who fails to denounce it
>with sufficient fervor is a fellow traveler.

I honestly cannot recall a single person I ever heard of who was an
apologist for the Rakosi regime., although I am sure there must be a few.
Most of the principals, except Rakosi himself, have written tomes of "self
criticisms", first during Imre Nagy's first Premiership, and of course
during the Kadar regime.

There are fascinating vignettes of Rakosi's regime and the Nagy period in
Janos Rainer's recent biography of Imre Nagy, with an almost overwhelming
detail of incidents, documents, etc., including recently uncovered records
in Moscow.

As someone who grew up during the Rakosi regime,as a child  I only knew him
as an ogre, a two dimensional evil man, responsible for the endless pain and
suffering in the country and as someone who could with a click of his
fingers could make people disappear for weeks, months, years or forever. In
my Gimnazium Class, at least a quarter of my classmates had fathers who were
in prisons, places like Recsk, and many more had relatives, close friends
who were deported during the dead of the night.  Every day, someone else
told of the well know story of the 2 AM ring of the bell and being served
with the pink notice that you had 24 hours to pack.

To get an idea about the terror, the cold clammy feeling of being totally
exposed to Rakosi and his AVH henchmen, read Illyes Gyula's poem, "One
Sentence about Tyranny" (Egy mondat a zsarnoksagrol...)  It tells it better
that any legal charge.  It permeated the very air you breathed.

Rainer's book, read 40 years later with a mature mind, fleshes out that
cardboard figure, making his person an even more disgusting, contemptible
figure.  If anyone, Rakosi would have deserved to be tried and executed
against humanity.  Instead, he lived out his retirement days peacefully in
his beloved Soviet Union, while his many victims were dead or were among the
living dead.
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:25 PM 12/7/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Istvan Lippai wrote:
>
>> The Hungarians on this list who had to survive the darkest years of
>> communist-Soviet domination know that you are lying.  They also know that I
>> speak the truth.
>
>   We don't know any such thing. Where does this garbage coming from
>   about the Hungarian Anthem. It was never forbidden, never!!!
>>

I am not certain about the "Himnusz" being totally forbidden, but as I
recall  the official National Anthem was something called the "Koztarsasagi
Indulo" (March of the Republic) during the Rakosi years. Its inspiring words
started out with something like

"Weave the silk, comrade, from the silk a flag!
Let that flag lead the Hungarian Worker into battle.
Once work was  forced upon us, today its a heroic deed
Weave the silk, comrade, and defend your life!"

About the only song sillier (if it only weren't so insulting) was the
refrain of a children's song (!!!) to which were expected to "zakatolni". It
was the song called the Young Pioneer Railroaders.  It went  (mind you, this
is a children's song!) Listen to this gem of Rakosi culture:

"In  the hills and valleys a train is clikkety-clakking (zakatol)
Among the prettiest girls I choose you
Our single slogan in Lasting Peace
stand among us and fight for it!"

Excuse my while I politely turn my back to the screen and throw up.....  I
resent that to this day I can not forget these assinine words they made us
memorize over and over again.

Charlie Vamossy
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:47 PM 12/8/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:
thers...
>
>>Have you ever thought of getting a life
>>that didn't revolve around god and love of country?
>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>I don't know about Canadians but most Americans would find your remark at
>least weird.  Yes, there are plenty of people for whom God and country are
>important, and maybe even central points in their lives.  Why does it bother
>you?  I would prefer such people any day over those whose life revolves
>around love of money or power.
>
>Ferenc
>
>

Even those whose life revolves around money occasionally take a peek at
their dollar bills and see the words:  In God we Trust.

Charlie
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Sun, 8 Dec 1996 21:32:54 UT
>
>Mr. Stowe,
>
>I am now positive that you are too smart for me.  It seems that you can
make
>a
>straw man and strike it down, just to make an argument.  Any kind of
>argument.
> I do not know who you are and where you are coming from.  I assume that
you
>are an American interested in Hungarian affairs.

I'm sorry I can't react to you in the manner to which you are obviously
accustomed. A great deal of your self-worth is apparently derived from
putting forth an aggressive ideology and condemning those who do not agree
with it in every particular. While this may make a vivid impression on
many you run across, it doesn't with me. You're the guy addicted to cheap
rhetorical tactics, not me. Cheer up, though. You seem to have at least
endeared yourself to Johanne le Tourniere. Who says the Net is not a
vehicle for forming friendships?

>
>I am a United States citizen and supported Senator Dole for president.
One
>of
>the things I admire about Senator Dole is his honorable service in the
United
>States infantry during WWII.  He was almost killed fighting the Nazis in
>Italy.
>
>The Hungarian soldiers who died in Russia and Yugoslavia during WWII were
not
>Nazis or member of Arrow Cross.  The Hungarians who died in that
senseless
>war
>were my brothers and I honor their memory..  (It is true that victory for
>Hitler could have been equally disastrous for Hungary.  Did you know that
>Hungary was trying desperately to stay out of WWII?  Most Hungarians are
>fundamentally opposed to both fascism and communism.)  I despise the
Nazis
>just as much as I despise the communists, but there are no former Nazi
>murderers and their sympathizers on this list who lie about the terrible
>crimes committed against our people.

The Hungarian governments under Regent Horthy would have allied themselves
with Satan himself if they thought it would return Hungary to its
pre-Trianon borders. What happened to Hungary during the war and after
should have been an object lesson for its people in the punitive costs of
raw opportunism. Your last sentence hasn't been borne out by empirical
experience. Several of your countrymen have appeared here at regular
intervals voicing neo-Nazi sentiments, particularly anti-Semitism.

>
>I doubt if I will spend much time bickering with Comrade Szalai.  I
consider
>the comparison with Szalai an insult, but since I compared you with him
>first,
>there is little I can complain about.

You should consider it an honor. Joe is a fundamentally decent man,
although he tends to wander off the reservation at times. You're an
outright McCarthyite whose singular distinction is an eagerness to traduce
the very values of the two countries whom he proclaims to love with such
loud public fervor.
Sam Stowe
>
>Best wishes.
>
>Istvan Lippai



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Ferenc Novak
> writes:

>>I await Joe's
>>explanation of how he can play the preening leftist when a sizable chunk
>>of the anti-Slobbo crowd in Beograd with which he claims solidarity are
>>monarchists, rabid nationalists and worse.
>
>>Sam Stowe
>
>That is what the communists usually say when the people rise up against
them.
> It is sad to see a supposedly knowledgeable American regurgitating such
>utter hogwash.
>
>Ferenc
>
>

Frank, you bow to no man when it comes to slopping out hogwash. Have you
watched the protests on the evening news? Have you seen the people in the
crowd of "student democrats" throwing up the three-fingered Serbian
nationalist salute? We had a picture of one "student democrat" who
appeared to be in his forties doing just that on the front page of our
local paper a few days ago. Have you heard an interview with Vuk
Draskovic, one of the "student democrats" leaders? Last time that guy got
much airplay in the western media, he was pushing a decidedly monarchist,
quasi-fascist line. The day Draskovic becomes an advocate for democracy is
the day Nixon is made a Jesuit priest posthumously. Nevertheless, I assume
he's the kind of role model you'd prefer to see reshaping Hungary
according to your inner lights.
Sam Stowe

"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>utopia
>1.      a. Often Utopia. An ideally perfect place, especially in its
social,
>political, and moral aspects. b. A work of fiction describing a utopia.
>2.      An impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political
reform.
>
>Ok, Sam.  Since you're in the habit of using "utopia" in a negative
sense,
>tell me what it is that I've ever written that seemed impractical or
>idealistic to you.
>
>Joe Szalai

That would require reposting nearly everything you've ever posted on here.
I don't know that readers would have the patience to wade through all
that. Your world view shows an almost fanatical and exclusive focus on the
radical goal of equivalent outcomes for every member of society. You waste
no opportunity in speaking out against what you perceive as injustice. Yet
you seem unable or unwilling to grasp the simple fact that people's
outcomes in life can be enhanced or limited by factors beyond the scope of
government -- personal choices, intelligence, education, economic
opportunity or the lack thereof and pure dumb luck, among others. For all
your professed love of your fellow man and woman, you don't seem to
understand them very well.
Sam Stowe

"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: Inquiry on MALEV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Sam Stowe wrote:
< SNIP >
>
> Peter, weren't you the one who was telling us a day or two ago about the
> DC-6B having wing-mounted engines and several others at the back? I'm
> still trying to figure that one out.

Sam, what I said that the DC-6B had 4 props under the wing and has 3
vertical stabilizers.

> Let me try this one more time --  the
> original reference to "rotating" the engines was in the context of making
> them operate at take-off speed. The jet jocks call this "spooling" the
> engines, either up or down. There are several call-out speeds during the
> take-off roll, one of which is Vr, rotation velocity, where the
> pilot-in-command pulls back on the yoke and the plane's nose lifts off the
> ground. This is what Peter is referring to in his post above.
Yep!
> I have no
> earthly idea what he's talking about when he mentions engine vanes
> rotating, unless he's talking about the fan blade motors on the intake
> stage of the engine. You can see those turning.
Yep!
> On most commercial jets
> with wing-mounted engines, the only part of the engine fairing you should
> see move during any aspect of flight is at landing when the clamshell
> deflectors, aka thrust reversers, deploy at the back of the engine to
> redirect thrust forward and help slow the aircraft. If you see those
> puppies deploy in flight, you should immediately bend over and smooch your
> butt goodbye because the plane will either crash out of control or break
> up in mid-air. Happy flying, kids!
RIGHT ON! -- There is an interlock, thank God!

Peter
+ - Re: AUTO Justice in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Ferenc Novak wrote:
SNIPPETY<<<<<<
>
> I don't know if it is a sign of corruption or not, but in my personal
> experience the offending motorist is given a choice: either he pays the fine
> on the spot, or he is given a summons which means a court appearance and a
> heftier fine if convicted.  In every case when the motorist pays the fine he
> gets a numbered receipt.  I assume the policeman has to account for receipts
> he hands out as well for the funds collected.  Personally I always chose to
> pay on the spot, on the few occasions when I was fined.  Of course I didn't
> like it, just like I don't like to pay fines (and collect points) here in the
> US.

I have never seen anyone given the choice of paying now or later. The
choice I did see is pay now or if you dont like it we will take you into
jail (tell it to the judge) especially on weekends!

Those little numbered receipts that you talk about should be for
accounting. The next time see how many people actually take those
receipts and see how many that you get are NOT yet torn. If they are torn
(even sightly) it means that it was accounted for once already -- perhaps
more than once. They tend to ask you if you need a receipt -- most people
do not (ahem....there is one hole in the system). It does not require
the writing of a ticket, nor the cops name, where, how, the
circumstances, etc. this is what leads (led) to the corruption that still
exists in the HU system.

BTW the US system is a bit more sophisticated.
They have radar or other. They give you a ticket then make you come to
court and pay for court costs (even if you win). Usually you are far
away and cannot drive back there. So they got you!
Taxation without representation -- there it is again!
Peter
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:18 PM 12/8/96 GMT, Sam wrote to Istvan Lippai:

>>What hurts me most is that we had such a wonderful opportunity after the
>>Soviet troops left Hungary.  What did the members of the first freely
>elected
>>government do?  They lined their own packets.  So the people dumped the
>>bastards and put the old communist bastards back in power.
>
>Don't worry, the wheel always turns. Inevitably, yet another collection of
> bastards will have official sanction to screw things up.

        Sam is most likely right. There is a very good possibility that at
the next election the electorate will not vote for the governing parties in
such great hordes as they did two and a half years ago.

>Did it ever
>occur to you that part of Hungary's problem is a crisis of expectations?

        This is certainly true. Entirely false expectations accompanied the
change of regime. And again, four years later, the electorate believed the
propaganda of the opposition parties: only these two left-handed neophites
don't quite know how to govern and create western European living standards.
Those guys who have all the experience, i.e., the former communists will be
able to govern properly!!! And surprise, surprise, the "experts" turned out
to be worse than the "neophites."

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:01 AM 12/9/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

>I work with Americans and play tennis with Hungarians on the weekends.  We are
>all getting older and freely mix Hungarian and English.

        I am surprised that with your love of the fatherland you were not
more careful about maintaining your knowledge of Hungarian. I am about your
age and I live in entirely English-language surroundings. However, I am
fluent in Hungarian and contribute quite often to the Hungarian-language
lists. I read Hungarian newspapers, often listen to the radio in Budapest.
In brief, I am trying to follow Hungarian events and public opinion. You
don't seem to be doing this and as a result you seem to be not in sync with
current Hungarian political opinion.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hungarian long step (was Hungarian beer) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:38 PM 12/7/96 GMT, George Antony wrote:

>Of the three, it is.  However, the thinnest legitimate spritzer in
>Hungary used to be the vicehazmester (deputy janitor): 100 ml of wine
>and 400 ml of soda water in a 0.5 l beer mug.  This also refers to the
>hazmester (or janitor) variant, 200 ml wine and 300 ml soda water in a
>similar vessel.  Such terms were fast going out of fashion when I was
>a uni student and are probably mostly forgotten nowadays.

        George, you are a source of incredible amount of information. Thanks.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hungarian beer (was: MALEV) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:15 PM 12/7/96 GMT, George Antony wrote:

>This is most likely a misunderstanding based on the strange Central-
>European measure used for beers.  In Hungary, and possibly in Czechia,
>the bottles are marked with a B with an uppercase small o, or Balling
>degree, followed by a number around ten.  This is not alcoholic content,
>it is an indication of the dry-matter content of the swill before
>fermentation.  The alcoholic content of beers is around 5% in Central
>Europe, as in most countries.
>
>Some extra strong brews of beers have alcoholic contents between 5 and
>10%, but I doubt that there is enough sugar in ordinary malted barley
>to produce that much alcohol.  Adding sugar in one way or another is the
>key, but such practices have been considered no cricket in the region
>where German beer laws applied.

        Thank you for the information. Maybe it was then just psychological
that after drinking a bottle I felt as if I drank six.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:55 AM 12/8/92 +0000, Eva Durant wrote, answering Istvan Lippai:

>If you ever sang the Hungarian Anthem during the darkest days of
>> communist oppression, you would know what I mean!  Only in church could you
>> sing the Hungarian Anthem.  You would get arrested for singing the Hungarian
>> Anthem any other place.

>Well, it won't reflect well on your fellow hungarians if you make
>statements which are untrue. I lived in Hungary till '73 and again
>in the 80s, and we had to learn the Anthem by heart in school, so did my
>children. On every possible occasion it was sung, and you had to
>stand up, when you heard it.

        Eva is right. The Hungarian national anthem remained the national
anthem even in the darkest days of the Rakosi regime. However, the regime
tried to replace it. The communist leadership objected to the name of God
being mentioned in the anthem. Sometime in 1949-50 they came up with an
atrocious piece of music called "The Song of the Republic" which was
supposed to replace the national anthem. It never did.

        Although I bet that only very few people remember that "Song of the
Republic" I still remember it quite well, mostly because of a line which
went something like that: "S hult a po'r e's hult a gyereke." [English: And
the peasant fell and fell his child.] However, the word "po'r" is an archaic
version of the modern word "paraszt," and most of us, thirteen-year-olds,
weren't familiar with it. However, we knew the word "por" very well, meaning
"dust." It also made sense the "the dust fell." So, this is how we sang it:
S hult a por e's hult a gyereke!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: poetry title (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:59 AM 12/7/96 -0800, Norma wrote:
>I'd be very grateful for any and all translations of the following title
>of a poem by Balint Balassi  (no. 67 in Szila2dy's edition):
>
>
>        Bizonnyal isme2rem rajtam nagy harogod
>
>
>Also, does anyone know of an English translation of Balassi's works?
>
>
>Thanks again.


        Thanks to our winter storm we have been without electricity for a
day and a half and therefore I was away from the computer. Hence I don't
know whether you received a translation of this or not.

        "Surely I know your great wrath on me"

        Also, you want to know that the wording is quite archaic. Even the
word order.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:39 AM 12/8/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

>I was not so fortunate.  The first time I could visit Hungary was in 1973, and
>that was only after the United States, Dept. of State got the communist
>government to agree not harm those of us who participated in the 1956
>uprising.

        Are you sure about your dates? The first time we, Hungarian refugees
of 1956, could visit Hungary was 1963. That was the time the Kadar regime
came up with the amnesty: let most of the political prisoners out of jail
and allowed the refugees to return and visit without fear of retribution.
Only very few people were not allowed to return: those who were responsible
for loss of life or whose activities abroad didn't suit them. Those people
simply didn't get visa. But if you received a visa you were also fairly safe
from harrassment.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The English Patient (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks to Joe Szalai for copying out the information on Laszlo
Almasy. My curiosity was aroused and I looked him up in the two+ volume
Hungarian biographical dictionary. He has a fairly lengthy entry. He was
born in 1895 and died in Salzburg in 1951. Son of Gyorgy Almasy, who was an
explorer of Asia. He studied in England--engineering--and became employed at
the Austrian Steyr Automobile Company. He first traveled to Africa in 1926
in order to try out a new type of automobile. From that time on he organized
yearly expeditions to different parts of Africa. During these expeditions he
discovered and mapped newly "discovered" areas as well as prehistorica cave
drawings. In 1941 he was called up to serve in the Hungarian army and
because of a German request he was assigned to the Afrikakorps. Because of
his assignment at the German Afrikakorps he was brought before the "people's
tribunal" but was acquitted. He left for Africa again in 1947, where in
Cairo he had a car dealership and he was also set a world record in gliding.
Was transported sick to Salzburg where he died. In Egypt there is an
international airport called "Al Maza"--named after him because it was him
who established it in 1932.

        My feeling is that if the "people's tribunal" acquitted him he was
most likely not guilty of war crimes because the Hungarian people's
tribunals were quite zealous in their duties. One hundred and eighty-nine
people received the death and thousands and thousands received jail sentences.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:05 PM 12/8/96 -0400, Johanna wrote:

>The people (I think) that Istvan is denouncing are the people who would
>be apologists for a brutal regime. I think that people like him, who
>actually lived through the Rakosi regime, understandably feel
>uncompromisingly opposed to it and feel that anyone who fails to denounce it
>with sufficient fervor is a fellow traveler.

        Sure, but I don't think that there are too many people on this list
who are "apologists for a brutal regime," like the Rakosi regime surely was,
or the first five-six years of the Kadar regime was. There might be some
people who are apologists for the latter part of the Kadar regime because
oppression was negligible and restrictions subtle. Influencing people's mind
was also subtle, almost impercetable. What most people, however, object to
is exaggeration and disregard of a balanced picture of the last fifty years.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To Canadians only (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Dear Canadians:
>I heard yesterday that Canadian Broadcasting International (CBC) had its
>funds cut so severely that they may have to go off the air.
>
>This will affect the Hungarian and other language programs on shortwave.
>
>Any comments, suggestions on how to keep them on the air (besides giving
>them money).... How does one influence the Canadian parliament about this?
>
>Peter Soltesz
>
>definitly not by your methods.us poor canadians realy do not need your ideas.
andy.
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:59 PM 12/8/96 -0800, Charlie Vamossy wrote:

>Rainer's book, read 40 years later with a mature mind, fleshes out that
>cardboard figure, making his person an even more disgusting, contemptible
>figure.  If anyone, Rakosi would have deserved to be tried and executed
>against humanity.  Instead, he lived out his retirement days peacefully in
>his beloved Soviet Union, while his many victims were dead or were among the
>living dead.

        First of all, thank you Charlie for the nice and balanced treatment
of the Rakosi regime. It was a God-awful time and people who didn't live
through it can't even imagine what it's like to live in terror of that sort.

        Just one addition here. Sure, Rakosi lived in retirement in the
Soviet Union but, his real wish was to return. I have a volume of documents
which Yeltsin gave to the Hungarians and in it you can find scores of
letters from Rakosi to Khrushchev asking him to be able to return to
Hungary. Kadar, of course, didn't want to have Rakosi around, not even in
retirement. The letters often harshly criticized Kadar for his alleged
laxity. So, he might not have lived so happily in the Soviet Union. However,
you are right, he should have been brought to trial against humanity and for
good measure hang him--although I am against capital punishment.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Finnish related to Turkish? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:10 AM 12/4/96 GMT, Kendra wrote:
>In article >,  (Peter k
>Chong) wrote:
>
>
>* Sumerian:       ab(-ba) 128,13a (father)
>* Finnish:        appi (father-in-law)
>* Hungarian:      apa (father)
>* Turkish:        aba (")
>* Mongol:         aav (")
>
>I was skimming through the words-comparison end of your post (not knowing
>any of the languages in question), when the above set caught my eye.  Is
>this any relation to Semitic "aba"-type words for father (Aramaic "abba,"
>Hebrew? "aba"), or just coincidence?  (Forgive me if I've got my words
>wrong; this is fuzzy territory at best for me).

        Not being a linguist I consulted the Hungarian Etymological
Dictionary and it seems that the Hungarian "apa" is of Finno-Ugric origin
but given the nature of the word it stems from "childspeak," so to speak.
Therefore, I gather that its resemblance to the Hebrew is coincidental.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The English Patient (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Eva!

At 12:07 09/12/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>        Thanks to Joe Szalai for copying out the information on Laszlo
>Almasy. My curiosity was aroused and I looked him up in the two+ volume
>Hungarian biographical dictionary.

<snip snip>

>        My feeling is that if the "people's tribunal" acquitted him he was
>most likely not guilty of war crimes because the Hungarian people's
>tribunals were quite zealous in their duties. One hundred and eighty-nine
>people received the death and thousands and thousands received jail sentences.
>
>        Eva Balogh

And thanks to you for supplying all this additional info. I'll bet this guy
rates a (nonfiction) book in his own right!

BTW, while we are on the subject of explorers, can you or anyone else tell
us anything about Arminius Vambery. I am interested in him because he was
apparently one of Bram Stoker's sources for the book *Dracula* (he makes
reference in the book to *Professor Arminius*) yet apparently there is no
evidence that Stoker - who never travelled to Central Europe - ever met
Vambery. Stoker, for those people who don't know, spent years as the
theatrical manager for the foremost actor in England at the time, Sir Henry
Irving. Do you have any ideas as to how Stoker and Vambery might have become
acquainted? Did Vambery ever travel to England?

Maybe this is a little bit obscure . . .

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - God of Hungarians? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Lippai:

>I asked God
>(Magyarok Istenet) to help me not to bring shame to my people when I arrived
>in the United States 40 years ago.

        Until now I have thought that God is universal.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Sam!

At 12:28 09/12/96 GMT, you wrote:
<snip snip>
>I'm sorry I can't react to you in the manner to which you are obviously
>accustomed. A great deal of your self-worth is apparently derived from
>putting forth an aggressive ideology and condemning those who do not agree
>with it in every particular. While this may make a vivid impression on
>many you run across, it doesn't with me. You're the guy addicted to cheap
>rhetorical tactics, not me. Cheer up, though. You seem to have at least
>endeared yourself to Johanne le Tourniere.

Geez, I love the attention, but couldn't you spell my name right? Or at
least make the *le* the feminine *la*?

Actually I would not agree with calling anyone on our List *garbage*,
frankly not even that good Doctor that Aniko loves to refer to. However, I
think it should not be overlooked the sheer terror which resulted from the
Rakosi regime - Charlie Vamossy's recent post gives a pretty good example.
The only Hungarian refugee that I was personally familiar with from the 50's
was Rev. Tornalyay, a Reformed Church minister, and he had been tortured by
the Rakosi regime. The cleaning lady across the street was Lithuanian, and
she used to go practically into hysterics, because she had been successful
in fleeing from the Communists but had no idea what was happening to the
rest of her family back in Lithuania and was unable to contact them. Thus,
although Istvan's reaction may be a bit strong, I think his vehemence is
much more understandable in a person who has lived through these things than
it was in  Senator McCarthy. (The fact is, however, something else that
people tend to conveniently forget, is that the Communists in the U.S. at
the time were indeed intent on overthrowing the government of the U.S. by
force, and they were agents of a foreign power, namely the Soviet Union.)

The Commies of that era were a brutal, totalitarian regime, and that fact
should never be forgotten.

Who says the Net is not a
>vehicle for forming friendships?

Internetfellows make strange politics?
>
Viszont,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr. Stowe,

I think you just clever with words.  Your message indicates that you have a
dislike for Hungary and the Hungarian people.

What did the millions of Hungarians, squeezed between the major powers,  have
to do with world politics?  What do they need to be punished for?

If you dislike us so much, what are doing talking to us?  In my 40 years of
living in the United States, I have never heard such unfounded anti-Hungarian
garbage.

Iistvan Lippai



----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Sam Stowe
Sent:  Monday, December 09, 1996 5:29 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Istvan Lippai >
>Date:  Sun, 8 Dec 1996 21:32:54 UT
>
>Mr. Stowe,
>
>I am now positive that you are too smart for me.  It seems that you can
make
>a
>straw man and strike it down, just to make an argument.  Any kind of
>argument.
> I do not know who you are and where you are coming from.  I assume that
you
>are an American interested in Hungarian affairs.

I'm sorry I can't react to you in the manner to which you are obviously
accustomed. A great deal of your self-worth is apparently derived from
putting forth an aggressive ideology and condemning those who do not agree
with it in every particular. While this may make a vivid impression on
many you run across, it doesn't with me. You're the guy addicted to cheap
rhetorical tactics, not me. Cheer up, though. You seem to have at least
endeared yourself to Johanne le Tourniere. Who says the Net is not a
vehicle for forming friendships?

>
>I am a United States citizen and supported Senator Dole for president.
One
>of
>the things I admire about Senator Dole is his honorable service in the
United
>States infantry during WWII.  He was almost killed fighting the Nazis in
>Italy.
>
>The Hungarian soldiers who died in Russia and Yugoslavia during WWII were
not
>Nazis or member of Arrow Cross.  The Hungarians who died in that
senseless
>war
>were my brothers and I honor their memory..  (It is true that victory for
>Hitler could have been equally disastrous for Hungary.  Did you know that
>Hungary was trying desperately to stay out of WWII?  Most Hungarians are
>fundamentally opposed to both fascism and communism.)  I despise the
Nazis
>just as much as I despise the communists, but there are no former Nazi
>murderers and their sympathizers on this list who lie about the terrible
>crimes committed against our people.

The Hungarian governments under Regent Horthy would have allied themselves
with Satan himself if they thought it would return Hungary to its
pre-Trianon borders. What happened to Hungary during the war and after
should have been an object lesson for its people in the punitive costs of
raw opportunism. Your last sentence hasn't been borne out by empirical
experience. Several of your countrymen have appeared here at regular
intervals voicing neo-Nazi sentiments, particularly anti-Semitism.

>
>I doubt if I will spend much time bickering with Comrade Szalai.  I
consider
>the comparison with Szalai an insult, but since I compared you with him
>first,
>there is little I can complain about.

You should consider it an honor. Joe is a fundamentally decent man,
although he tends to wander off the reservation at times. You're an
outright McCarthyite whose singular distinction is an eagerness to traduce
the very values of the two countries whom he proclaims to love with such
loud public fervor.
Sam Stowe
>
>Best wishes.
>
>Istvan Lippai



"Got a devil's haircut
in my mind..."
-- Beck
+ - Re: To Canadians only (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Andy Kozma wrote:
<SNIP>
> >definitly not by your methods.us poor canadians realy do not need your ideas
.
> andy.
There you go again Andy! I guess if does not mean anything to you then it
should not to me either. Yet it does. I like to listen to RCI and so do
many others. If you do not want to be helpful in solving this problem like
some others like Aniko (who behaved quite civil and actually sent info
about where to send information). So Andy You you obviously got up on the
wrong side of the bed again! Go back to sleep Please!.

Perhaps one day you will learn what it means to help someone that is
trying to help you (perhaps not you personally).
Peter
+ - Re: HAL: *** OMRI Daily Digest *** Dec/9/96 (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

An another man's opinion.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:03:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Gotthard Saghi-Szabo >
To: Hungarian American List >
Subject: Re: HAL: *** OMRI Daily Digest *** Dec/9/96

Dears,
 It is absolutely disgraceful what is going on in Hungary nowadays.
Besides the rise in street crimes, first came the privatization scandal,
then the pardon of the two communist murderers who killed during the '56
revolution, now the unacceptable treatment of the 'oil-gate' scandal (see
below). Well, what the hell to expect from a country with an alcoholic
communist prime minister. Shame on them. I can just hope that people on
the top - the Horn-Petho gang - will pay for everything after the next
elections. We might not need a communist witch hunt, I agree. But people
like them - turning the country into complete turmoil a la Balkan - should
be prosecuted firmly and promptly, without much hesitation. I guess this
will serve as an unfortunately late lesson - do not trust (ex-)communists
neither their friends: once a whore, always a whore :-(

Gotthard
--
mailto:
http://granite.ciw.edu/~gotthard/

> DOCUMENTS ON HUNGARY'S "OILGATE" SCANDAL GET 80-YEAR SECRECY STAMP.
> Istvan Nikolits, minister responsible for secret services, has placed an
> 80-year stamp of secrecy on data related to the so-called oilgate
> affair, Hungarian media reported on 9 December. The opposition
> Democratic Forum fiercely protested the move. Silence has surrounded the
> affair ever since a parliamentary commission was formed to investigate
> the charges brought by opposition deputies and the press that several
> Socialist party members had been involved in business deals related to
> Russia's repayment of its debt to Hungary. Among others, former Trade
> and Industry Ministers Imre Dunai and Laszlo Pal were accused of using
> their influence to secure contracts for certain Socialist-leaning
> business firms. -- Zsofia Szilagyi
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:08 PM 12/9/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>        First of all, thank you Charlie for the nice and balanced treatment
>of the Rakosi regime. It was a God-awful time and people who didn't live
>through it can't even imagine what it's like to live in terror of that sort.
>
>        Just one addition here. Sure, Rakosi lived in retirement in the
>Soviet Union but, his real wish was to return. I have a volume of documents
>which Yeltsin gave to the Hungarians and in it you can find scores of
>letters from Rakosi to Khrushchev asking him to be able to return to
>Hungary. Kadar, of course, didn't want to have Rakosi around, not even in
>retirement. The letters often harshly criticized Kadar for his alleged
>laxity. So, he might not have lived so happily in the Soviet Union. However,
>you are right, he should have been brought to trial against humanity and for
>good measure hang him--although I am against capital punishment.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>

Thanks, Eva, for your kind words...  I guess living through the Rakosi years
left a deep impression in us, one we wish we never knew but we are doomed
remember for the rest of our lives.

I vaguely  knew Rakosi did not exactly live in perfect contentment in the
Soviet Union and continued to battle for rehabilitation and even restoration
to power but not even Khrushchev and Kadar had the stomach for him.

Actually, I know very little of his life after 1956.  I know he went to the
Soviet Union and lived on for several years. Much as I hate his memory, in
a perverse, morbid fascination I would like to know more of his final years.
Could you post some of the more interesting highlights from your sources?
Perhaps others are interested also.



Charlie Vamossy
+ - Garbage? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It just occurred to me since Istan Lippai calls all Hungarian
communists who helped to establish the soviet regime in Hungary garbage,
does this mean that he considers Imre Nagy, the key figure of 1956, also
garbage? Or is he exempt?
        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: AUTO Justice in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:55 AM 12/9/96 -0500, Peter wrote:

>I have never seen anyone given the choice of paying now or later. The
>choice I did see is pay now or if you dont like it we will take you into
>jail (tell it to the judge) especially on weekends!
>
>Those little numbered receipts that you talk about should be for
>accounting. The next time see how many people actually take those
>receipts and see how many that you get are NOT yet torn. If they are torn
>(even sightly) it means that it was accounted for once already -- perhaps
>more than once. They tend to ask you if you need a receipt -- most people
>do not (ahem....there is one hole in the system). It does not require
>the writing of a ticket, nor the cops name, where, how, the
>circumstances, etc. this is what leads (led) to the corruption that still
>exists in the HU system.

        I have the nagging feeling that there are quite a few policemen who
are corrupt. And they are not the only ones. For example, bus drivers who
don't give tickets! My feeling is that corruption is so widespread that it
will take a heck of a long time to get rid of it. If ever.

        Talking about police, an old memory comes back from the 50s. In
those days there were so few cars on the road that one could walk in the
middle of the street without the slightest fear of ever encountering a motor
vehicle.

        I was about fourteen and I was riding a bycicle. There was a very
short little street (I still remember its name, Gabor utca) which was a
one-way street, as most of Pecs's downtown streets were. I drove in the
wrong way with my bicycle. As I was peddling out of the street there stood a
policeman. Oh, my God!--said I. And indeed, I received a ticket and I had to
pay on the spot. As he was writing out the receipt another bicyclist was
peddling out of Gabor utca, a young man, a couple of years older than I am.
He stopped him too. Asked for his I.D., his name was Horvath (a very common
Hungarian name). "Horvath, Istvan? Are you the son of Istvan Horvath XV who
is in the police force?" OK,--he handed him back his ID--don't do that next
time! Meanwhile, I paid! What kind of message did a young person receive?
Not a very good one!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ms. Balogh,

>From your listings I have to conclude that you are every bit as smart as you
claim to be.  You probably write much-much better English and Hungarian than I
do.  You seem to have superior knowledge of events and dates.

What good it is if you use your impressive talents to label and ridicule
Hungarians who do not agree with your liberal views?

I came upon this list by accident.  I was looking for works of "Petofi Sandor"
and this list showed up.  I read most of the messages.  I was impressed with
the postings of my fellow Hungarians who and wanted to partake.  I was also
extremely disturbed by your, Szalai's and Durants's postings.

I wanted to respond to the pro-Communist, anti-American, anti-Hungarian
rhetoric.  I deliberately used strong language.  All of a sudden, the liberals
and communists came out of the woodworks, protesting my language and
statements. (We have liberals and conservatives, same as any other group of
people.  I may not agree with liberals, but I there are some liberals I can
respect.  Even one, murdering, communist garbage is too much.).

I was accused of preaching, condemning, and trying push my ideas on others.
This is exactly what you and your liberal and communist friends have been
doing to the Hungarians on this list.

If you cannot take it, do not dish it out.

Lippai Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Eva S. Balogh
Sent:  Monday, December 09, 1996 10:08 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: To everybody

At 02:01 AM 12/9/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

>I work with Americans and play tennis with Hungarians on the weekends.  We
are
>all getting older and freely mix Hungarian and English.

        I am surprised that with your love of the fatherland you were not
more careful about maintaining your knowledge of Hungarian. I am about your
age and I live in entirely English-language surroundings. However, I am
fluent in Hungarian and contribute quite often to the Hungarian-language
lists. I read Hungarian newspapers, often listen to the radio in Budapest.
In brief, I am trying to follow Hungarian events and public opinion. You
don't seem to be doing this and as a result you seem to be not in sync with
current Hungarian political opinion.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: AUTO Justice in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:10 PM 12/9/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Talking about police, an old memory comes back from the 50s. In
>those days there were so few cars on the road that one could walk in the
>middle of the street without the slightest fear of ever encountering a motor
>vehicle.
>

An old joke comes to my mind:  Why do policemen in Hungary always walk in
pairs?  Because one knows how to read, the other knows how to write.  And
why do policemen in Romania walk in threes? Two for the same reasons as in
Hungary, but in Romania someone else had to keep an eye on these two
dangerous members of the intelligentsia.

Charlie Vamossy

PS.  Why do Hungarian cars have an "H" sticker on their rear?  So even
policemen know which side is the "hatulja" (rear end) of the car.

PPS.  I apologize....  No more jokes, I promise...

PPPS. Unless you haven't heard the one about......

PPPPS.   but I better not...
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>At 03:22 08/12/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
>>Well, I do not know exactly which period the 'darkest days of communist
>>oppression' refers, but during the time I lived in Hungary the Anthem was
>>not forbidden. I was born in 1966 and lived in Hungary all of my life untill
>>very recently (nineties). I haven't even left Hungary untill the early
>>eighties. The Anthem was sang on most of the holidays (I mean in school),
>>especially on March 15. However I can imagine that someone could be arrested
>>for singing on an illagal demonstration (like on March 15).
>>
>>J.Zs
>
>But it seems to me that I remember reading someplace (like, maybe in Liptak
>Bela's *Ocean In A Tear*) that singing the national anthem anywhere but in
>church was illegal in pre-1956 Hungary. And it  would make sense, too, that
>the Rakosi era would be described as the *darkest days of communist
>oppression.* After all, the Kadar era was actually much more liberal than
>the Stalinist Rakosi era. But maybe Istvan can tell us himself exactly what
>period he was referring to. It doesn't seem to me that anything he has said
>calls for such personal venom as has been expressed in a couple of posts.

Well, of course, I suspected that I.Lippai ment the Rakosi era, but I thought
I should tell my experience during the 70s.

>People who are younger tend to forget and may not have heard about the
>brutalities of the Communists which were committed in the 50's. But, as far

Not only young people but everybody. And if we let it happens it will be
completly erased from the History.

>What does it matter whether the goal of such people was actually to
>eliminate *all* Magyars or not - when the citizens of the country might be
>tortured or killed without due process without having committed any crime at
>all?!! The constant insecurity, the mistrust of one's neighbours, and in
>some cases one's own family which occurred was surely destructive to the
>very fabric of Hungarian society. And, surely this is a legitimate topic for
>discussion in this Hungarian discussion group, and does not mean that the
>person leveling the criticisms is attacking all of his fellow countrymen -
>only those who committed those crimes, who deserve to be denounced. Whether
>the crimes were not in fact *war crimes* or only *crimes against humanity*
>(which surely they were even if they were not technically war crimes) should
>make no difference.

Well, not that long ago I was talking about *war crimes* committed by Russian
communist (at Katyn). It was a proven fact and I'd bet one can find plenty of
similar crimes. From mistreatment of the prisoners of War to actual genocide.
Dzsugasvilli moved the nations in the Soviet Union as figures on chessboard.
This is a known fact, too. And who knows what else happened. Once I heard there
 were like ~160 different nations in the SU before Stalin and ~100 after him.
So, where is the rest?
And I got reactions to my post, like 'they are still in power, who is going
to go after these criminals' and 'Russia was on the winning side and the
victors are not supposed to be accused for war crimes', and so on. It was
interesting to read such pragmatic comments from people who are otherwise
quite emotional on other similar subjects.
As the matter of fact they were right, nobody will punish this criminals. So
it may be better to forget their activity, this way the future generations
won't see an example when someone got away with war crimes.

>After all, Joe, you have publicly proclaimed your solidarity with those
>demonstrators in Belgrade. What if the authorities start picking up and
>spiriting away the demonstrators, who are never seen again? Wouldn't the
>authorities responsible justly be called *garbage* - and worse? And wouldn't
>they deserve it?

Johanne, you should not look for logic or coherence in Joe's ideas. You just
waste your time.

J.Zs
+ - Re: Rakosi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote:

> I vaguely  knew Rakosi did not exactly live in perfect contentment in the
> Soviet Union and continued to battle for rehabilitation and even restoration
> to power but not even Khrushchev and Kadar had the stomach for him.
>
> Actually, I know very little of his life after 1956.  I know he went to the
> Soviet Union and lived on for several years. Much as I hate his memory, in
> a perverse, morbid fascination I would like to know more of his final years.
> Could you post some of the more interesting highlights from your sources?
> Perhaps others are interested also.
>
> Charlie Vamossy
> ---------------
Charlie,

   The last news I have heard about him was that he was (re)interned
secretly in Hungary few years after his death.  But this  could be a
rumor only, I don't remember the source of the information.

                                                            Amos
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:58 PM 12/9/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:
>Mr. Stowe,

>If you dislike us so much, what are doing talking to us?  In my 40 years of
>living in the United States, I have never heard such unfounded anti-Hungarian
>garbage.
>
>Iistvan Lippai

        Garbage seems to be your favorite word. And by the way Sam is right
when it comes to the foreign policy of the Horthy regime. Its most important
consideration was the revision of the Treaty of Trianon. In my professional
opinion Hungary could have achieved some territorial revisions especially in
the north at the expense of Czechoslovakia where clearly the borders were
extremely unjustly drawn. Most likely some revision could have been achieved
even at the expense of Romania, along the current Hungarian-Romanian
borders. But unfortunately, the Hungarians bet on the wrong horse.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: If you can not take it, do not dish it out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Lippai:

>I was also
>extremely disturbed by your, Szalai's and Durants's postings.

        Grouping us together will highly amuse Joe Szalai and Eva Durant.

>If you cannot take it, do not dish it out.

        What can I not take? Your high-level political analyses? You must be
kidding.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Garbage? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ms. Balogh is so clever!

What I remember about Nagy Imre is that he gave us hope, he never addressed us
as "comrades", he called us his Hungarian brothers and sisters.  I never
considered him a communist and I was among those Hungarians who hoped that he
would lead our country.

He gave his life for Hungary.  Nagy Imre is one of my idols.

To use his name and memory to make a cheap point is despicable.

Istvan Lippai
----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Eva S. Balogh
Sent:  Monday, December 09, 1996 1:43 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Garbage?

        It just occurred to me since Istan Lippai calls all Hungarian
communists who helped to establish the soviet regime in Hungary garbage,
does this mean that he considers Imre Nagy, the key figure of 1956, also
garbage? Or is he exempt?
        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Communist or not? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Are you saying that in Hungary, for example, there is no money sepnt on
> campaining?
>

No, I'm saying that not intelligence that counts, as was suggested.



> Here is where I disagree. All countries do not have to take up loans,
> just like you do not have to borrow any money, unless you are willing to
> pay for it and it is important to you (i.e. a home, a car, etc.). The
> same is true for any country -- the people must need and want the $$$$.
> The issue at times is that it is the leaders that take on the loans and
> people get burdened with it -- just like in HU (and elsewhere).
> Someone must take the responsibility and that MUST be the government that
> takes up the loan!
>

All major parties in HUngary wants the international money
markets and loans.




> > But it is not like that in real life. Countries all over the world
> > are suffering under unservicable debts, the net flow of money is from
> > the poor to the rich - as always.
> > Here in the UK the house repossessions by banks and building
> > societies run in the hundred thousands  yearly.
>
> Well perhaps the banks were giving too freely to those who could nto,
> would not pay it back!
> ---

Why should they care, they cannot loose.



> Perhaps in part you are right, yet it is private capital that creates
> jobs and businesses -- altough that may be hard for you to accept --
> in the USA 80 percent of all jobs are with small businesses, NOT large
> behemoths or government (aka HU).
>
> Peter Soltesz
>

I'd like to see data to underline this statement. Census Buro says,
that one in 4 children in the US lives in poverty and 1.5 millions
are undernaurished. Not an example to follow, whatever the type of
the private enterprise.

+ - Re: Rakosi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Amos Danube wrote:
>    The last news I have heard about him was that he was (re)interned
> secretly in Hungary few years after his death.  But this  could be a
> rumor only, I don't remember the source of the information.

Rumour had it that Rakosi actually died at the hospital for circulatory
illnesses at Balatonfured.  Not official acknowledgement of this those
days, of course.

George Antony
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sat Dec  7 10:50:26 EST 1996, > wrote:
>
>At 01:36 PM 12/7/96 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:
>
><snip all the hatred)
>>Isten ald me a Magyart....  (God bless the Hungarian....)
>>
>>Istvan
>
>
>Lippai ur,
>
>"Isten a'ld meg a Magyart..." is how the Hungarian anthem starts!
>
            ^^^
Dear Gentlemen,
Dear Mr. Szalai and Mr. Lippai,

The solution is: none of the above.

The Hungarian anthem starts:
"Isten, a'ldd meg a magyart..."

George Jalsovszky


 .............................................
Dr. Ildiko Jalsovszky
Dipl.Chem., Attorney at Law, Patent Attorney
H-1093 Budapest,  Kozraktar u. 24,   Hungary
Phone: +361-218-4148;     Fax: +361-218-4506
Home: H-1111 Egri J. u. 40;    +361-165-4585
http://w3.datanet.hu/~jalso
 .............................................

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