Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 929
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-03-01
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  84 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: "Winemaking" (mind)  117 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
13 Surely there seems to be an undue concern about taxing (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Health care. (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
15 Correction (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Health care. (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Health care. (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Health care. (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
22 Fwd: Fenn van - reszben OK is (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
23 Fwd: Fenn van - reszben OK is (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
24 FW: Fwd: HL: [Fwd: Re: First Environmental Lawsuit (Dan (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Health care. (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
26 FW: Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
28 Healthcare. (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Health care. (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Health care. (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
34 Taxes (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: How's Budapest in July? (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Info on Budapest, Hungary for tourists (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-27 23:18:12 EST, Joe Szalai writes:

<< <Sure, Joe.  You could certainly save a lot of money by just shutting down
 >>the military.

 >I have always thought so.  It is one of my dreams.  Imagine, a world
without
 >conflict.
  >>

What?  Are you seriously suggesting that conflict is the result of having a
military?  Weren't you just saying something about "we're a democratic people
and can vote for what we want"?  I guess you like conflict, then.  It's okay,
Joe.  Most people do.  That's why we have conflict.

>>Or which doctors I may see, and how much my wages have to drop to pay for
>>my "free" medical care.  Or invest for my retirement (Social Security,
>>Heaven save it, gets a -2.25% return annually during the longest bull
>>market in history).  These are decisions I can make for myself better than
>>anyone in Washington.

>There are costs to living in society.  And I think you're oppossed to
>government programmes because you're insecure.  You don't trust that
>society, or 'others', will be there for you in case of need.  And because
>you feel that way, you don't want to be there for 'others' now.  But it's a
>good circular argument and you get, or at least argue to get, to keep most
>of your money.  Rather self-serving, wouldn't you say?

I sit on the executive board of a charitable organization.  I give away over
15% of my annual income.  I have another 20% or so forcibly removed from me
by the government.  I not only belive that others will be there for me when I
need it, I know they will be, as I spend about half my time, with no
compensation, being there for them.  I oppose government programs because
when I give money directly to the needy, 100% goes where it will do good.
 Whereas when I fork over the money to Washington, only 60% of it goes
anywhere, and a large chunk goes to things I think are wrong and have never
done any good at all.  This is charity?  This is compassion?  I think the
insecurity is on your side, Joe.  You don't believe anyone cares if you live
or die, so you had better force them to give up their money in the hope that
Ottawa will condescend to give some back to you.

It's the nature of the beast, Joe.  Government must keep a slice of my money
to pay for overhead, staff, etc., while I can get the same money to the
actual poor with volunteers and no overhead at all.  The ivory tower of
benevolent Government is a long way from my neighborhood.  But I live here.
 It's not the intent I object to; it's the execution.  We do it better than
they do.

Kristof
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-27 23:17:34 EST, Joe Szalai writes:

<< >>Personally, I think crossing the border is wrong, and I wish you every
 >>success in putting all these people in jail.

 >What?  Do you want the doctors to be cops also?  Their job is to help sick
 >people, not to jail them.  Besides, jailing people is almost as costly, if
 >not more so, than treating them.  Besides, we wouldn't have a problem if
 >Americans had medicare similar to ours. >>


There's no pleasing some people.  Let your vaunted Canadian Mounties drag
them into the frozen north and shoot them, then.  Or fine them (which was my
original suggestion) and use the money to buy some actual medical equipment.
 But the problem is yours, not ours, and you wouldn't have it if your medical
system was similar to ours.  You wouldn't have it if your medical system was
similar to Mexico's, either.  Down here we treat you if you want to be
treated (spare me the money diatribe, okay? there are more free hospitals in
Kansas than in Ontario), not if you happen to be the right nationality.

In fact, here's an even better idea.  Let the Americans come, and charge them
the going rate for the services.  You need the money, and we'll stop coming
when the costs are equal.  Watch and see.  Or weren't you looking for a real
solution?

>>In Canada, you often cannot have the operation at all even if you have
>>millions.

>That's right.  Health care is a human right in Canada.  Everyone is supposed
>to be equal.  Health care is not a commodity to be sold on the market.  It
>is a social service.

Why tax for it, then?  Why compel people to pay, even if they don't use the
system?  Everyone was equal in Hungary, too.  This is what you want?  Health
care is a commodity, as is toilet paper.  Or do you have socialized
bathrooms, too?  Why not?  Groceries are a basic human right, too, aren't
they?  Why not socialized supermarkets?  And gas stations!  There's no end to
this, and no way out of it, either.

Health care costs money.  Therefore someone has to pay for it.  In your
country, everyone pays and some benefit.  In mine, nobody pays unless they
benefit.  I wish the costs were more reflective of the actual market, which
would cut the cost dramatically.  Maybe someday.

>And just who do you think the government is?  It's us.  We are a democratic
>people and we freely elect our government.  They are us.  Demonize the
>government and you demonize us.  Why are you so anti-democratic?

>And, thanks for the economics 101 lesson.  You believe that the economy
>depends as much on economists as the weather does on weather forecasters.

Absolutely right.  Economics and weather have that in common.  They both just
do their thing, and the experts try to explain what is already obvious to
everyone.  Or should I say, almost everyone?

Should I snip that first paragraph and send it to Reuters?  You must be the
last Canadian that really believes you have something to do with what the
government decides.  Down here we abandoned that illusion long ago.  You
yourself demonize the government with nearly every post.  Do you demonize
yourself?  Are you certain that your vote has so much effect on the hundreds
of legislators in Ottawa?  It's a great attitude, Joe, and I am sincerely
glad that NAFTA, etc. has not dimmed your bright belief that your government
is actually controlled by you.

I am not a big fan of Democracy (and you aren't, either), but I love
Republicanism.  I just reject the notion that America is a true Republic.
 Canada is not, either.  Power is not really in the hands of the people,
whatever delusions we permit ourselves, and until it is, we will keep having
these pointless discussons, as if we had power to actully effect change on
trillion-dollar bloated bureaucracies.  That's one of the reasons Hungary
fascinates me so much -- it's small enough that something real might be
accomplished there.

>We can improve our medicare by extending coverage to prescription drugs,
>dental work, and eye care.  They are vital to good health.

You can improve it by requiring everyone to drive Volvos, too.  Ever think of
that?  Or by banning red meat.  And mandating exercise.  And reconstructing
gene patterns.  What next, Joe?  Socialized health clubs?  What is it about
people that you cannot just leave them alone and let them take care of
themselves and each other in peace?  They'll do it, you know, if you let
them.

Kristof
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-27 07:43:57 EST, Joe Szalai writes:

<< And why?  Well, I believe that the
 Ontario government wants to ruin medicare.  They want to drive it into the
 ground.  Then they can tell us that it's too expensive and doesn't work.
 And after that, they can set up a system for the rich and another one for
 the rest of us.  In short, they want to Americanize medicare.  And they have
 the federal Liberal government's (sub-rosa) blessing in doing so. >>

I'm confused.  I thought you had a democratically elected government.  This
must be what you want, then ;-)

Kristof
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-27 19:53:22 EST, Agnes writes:

<< When all the different dis/advantages between the US and
 Canadian tax/health structure at large, are closely scrutinized, I would be
 very surprised if you all would not come to the same conclusion we have, on
 several occasions.  And, those Canadians who have opted to migrate south
 have come to;  that  being, that a person say earning $40,000.00/year in
 Canada, can and will have a better lifestyle in the US; while be able to
 afford to acquire a fairly comprehensive Health Insurance coverage at the
 same time. The consensus has always been, that regardless of Health care;
 people south of us have, and continue to have it better. >>

Aniko-

Kezet csokolom.  You make a good point, but please let me say that I do not
think the U.S. system is great.  I think it smells bad.  It is, in my
opinion, the best in the world, but it could surely be improved by the total
deregulation of the health insurance industry, and the partial deregulation
of healthcare providers.

Costs in the U.S. are propped up by large insurance agencies, who have this
cozy arrangement whereby businesses get tax breaks for purchasing health
insurance for their employees.  Now, don't misunderstand me, I love tax
breaks, but why not extend them to individuals?  That would force insurance
companies to compete, which would lower costs, and it would let individuals
negotiate their own deals, bringing competition back to the industry.  Hey
presto!  A 50% reduction in hospital charges!

Unfortunately, costs are high here because the costs are hidden.  We pay the
insurance companies, and they pay the providers, and never the twain shall
meet.  Consumers need to get back in the loop.

I suspect a similar problem exists there in the North.

Udv.

Kristof
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-27 06:13:11 EST, J.Zs writes:

<< Can anyone tell me why a rich people has more right to live than a poor
 one? Maybe I sound like socialist, but I think medical issues should be
 treated based on urgency, seriousness of the problem and 'first come first
 served'. As far as I know there is always more patient than available
 service (more patient waiting for transplantation than available organ).
 Maybe those who cross the border to the US actually take the place of
 those american who are not able to afford the treatment.
  >>

Isten hozott.  Free hospitals in the U.S. (don't believe everything you hear
-- there are lots of them) make this problem less severe than one might
suppose.  You are correct, though, there is a problem.  One of my radical
views is that if you don't force people to give all their money to
government, they will spread it among themselves far more efficiently, and
this will allow the needy to be taken care of.

Nobody has a right to health care.  Sorry, I know I just opened a nasty
topic, no doubt I'll be defending that statement for weeks.  I do not believe
basic human rights extends to arthroscopic surgery.  I do believe in a basic
human need for care, and I believe that organizations should exist that fill
this need.  And oddly enough, they do.  I also believe there would be more of
them if the government didn't try to administer compassion.

The organ problem is a different one.  It stems not from money but from
general ignorance and prejudice against having one's body chopped up upon
death.  I am a registered organ donor, but that will do nobody any good
unless I die.  Too many people do not register to donate organs, and this
causes a shortage, which, of course, makes them very expensive.  The other
contributing factor is that medicine keeps huge numbers of people alive today
that would have died only twenty years ago.  This reduces the supply of
organs, because of the lack of deaths.  It's circular, but even Joe, who
apparently believes in the omnipotent benevolence of government, cannot magic
up a bunch of kidneys on command.

Of course, we invented the artificial heart here to help solve the problem.
 The market finds a way!


Kristof
+ - Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!
There is an in principle difference between tax minimisation which is legal and
 tax cheating which is illegal but in practice it is often difficult to find th
is difference.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Joe Szalai[SMTP:]
Sent:  Friday, 28 February 1997 22:09
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government

At 09:02 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Janos Zsargo, wrote:

<snip>
>        It may not be the whole society but most people try to get as much
>out of the system as possible. And the system is such that a lot can be
>milked out of it.

Legally or illegally?

It has been my experience that most people, the vast majority, live legally.
Most people will not cheat!  They will live by the rules.  Maybe your
coterie of friends are different.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Geez Joe.... $($)*%)$*)*#$)(*#$))#% (got the picture yet)?  If, 30
million
>people in Canada, would have the "b...."'s to ever stand up to anything
at
>all,

I beg to disagree here, Aniko.  You should see (and you might have seen
it in the papers in NS) how the people of the Greater Toronto area are
standing up to oppose Harris's megacity!

Incidentally, re: GST.  Mulroney made a very-very stupid mistake.  The
GST was a replacement of the manufacturer's tax, which was buried.  He
should have buried the GST, like it is everywhere else in Europe.
Everbody would have forgotten about it after a few months.  Now, whenever
we buy something, there is that 7% to remind everybody over and over
again.  It cost him the election and wiped out his party. Not that I feel
any sympathy towards him - I always voted liberal...

Agnes
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello Kristof:

At 09:50 PM 28/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
<snip
>
I>Costs in the U.S. are propped up by large insurance agencies, who have this
>cozy arrangement whereby businesses get tax breaks for purchasing health
>insurance for their employees.
[...]
Your statement indicates to me, that the goverment must be involved
somewhere along the line?  I cannot imagine a world, where any insurance
entity alone, would have the power to indulge in offering tax breaks to
anyone.

I  would, however,  like to know more about these tax breaks;  Eligibility,
for example, 10 employees, or 10k?  Or is it based on annual revenues if
so, minimum?  Maximum?  Gross or net?  Purpose? What if any is the actual
effect of this tax break on the total picture of the financial picture in
the end?  Are these an straight forward, normally assumed operating
expense, or are they meant to accrue special tax credits towards reduction
of one's taxable base to be utilized at a time best deemed?  What is, this
tax break you speak of...in total clear picture?

From Canada's end in a corporation/business I am not aware of any tax
breaks in providing extended health care benefits to employees.  There are
no laws that I know of, which dictate that one must provide such a benefit
to an employee either.  It becomes a question of will, desire of the
employer - if not a negotiating tool to attract employees - since, after
all; our system is deemed so great:-).  The cost is high, very high to the
employer.  The cost of providing such a benefit, is no different when
treated by taxation than is any normal operating expense ... say salaries,
freight, or telephone.  In addition, even the premiums paid on behalf of
the employee become a taxable benefit to the employee in some provinces of
Canada.

>Now, don't misunderstand me, I love tax breaks, but why not extend them to
>individuals?
This is where I failed to get my original point accross.  You should love
tax breaks, since you have far more, than we can ever dream of having north
of you! For example; is your annual health care expense not considered as
an eligible expense which reduces your taxable income on an annual basis?
If your answer is yes; than you, as an individual are a beneficiary of a
tax break.

>That would force insurance companies to compete, which would lower costs,
>and it would let individuals negotiate their own deals, bringing
competition back >to the industry.  Hey presto!  A 50% reduction in
hospital charges!
[...[
I think that you are oversimplifying.  Nor am I a lover of insurance
companies at large, and would love to debate this further.  Unfortunately,
as much as I'd love to I cannot.  For the next  two weeks, I'll be out of
the reach of the group.  Eventually, I will catch up on your thoughts....
and now, I must pack!

Best to all, Aniko
Have fun all!!
+ - Re: "Winemaking" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think some clarification is in order here. Wines can be legally adjusted in t
wo ways which are by freezing out some of the water before fermentation starts 
thereby increasing the sugar content and by adding such concentrate to other wi
nes. This latter results in a second fermentation. Brandy is added to some wine
s and these are referred to as fortified and at least in Australia as long as y
ou label it as such it is legal. 
What a vintner does in his cellar for his own consumption is his business. The 
question of legality arises if he sells it as "true" wine.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Ferenc Novak[SMTP:]
Sent:  Saturday, 1 March 1997 12:36
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: "Winemaking"

 on Feb 27 16:54:46 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #927:

>At 12:27 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote, quoting me:
>
 on Feb 26 07:27:48 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #926:
>>
>>>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>>>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.
>>>I know because around Pecs
>>>everybody has a vineyard and I visited quite a few where the owners don't
>>>even try to hide the fact that the wine is phoney. It tastes like it too.
>>
>>Now, Eva is lucky she is not famous, or else she might have a dandy of a
>>lawsuit on her hands.  Because in effect she slanders all of the vintners
in
>>Hungary.  But, fortunately for her, her opinions on wine don't carry much
>>weight anywhere.
>
>        We are getting ugly, aren't we, Mr. Novak.

I don't know, Eva, speak for yourself.  I have been told I was not bad
looking for my age ;-)

>Plus Mr. Novak is not
>very careful when it comes to reading other people's text. (1) I didn't say
>that all wine-makers make phoney wine but the ones I talked to;

Unfortunately, not quite true.  This is what you said:

>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.

Since your visits to Hungary are admittedly infrequent (and, -- here I am
paraphrasing you -- fortunately so, as you recently said either here or on
another list), much of your information must be, by necessity, second-hand.
 So it is with most of us who don't live in Hungary.  So you should be more
careful when you say something that is so potentially damaging.

>(2) slander
>means (I) the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame
>and damage another's reputation; (II) a false and defamatory oral statement
>about a person.

OK, I should say libel, since your unsubstantiated statements were not oral

>And here is where we have a little trouble with Mr. Novak's lines.

Again, who are "we"?

>First, slander is only "false charges," not charges which are true
>and to which I can testify.

Just keep in mind that your testimony doesn't necessarily mean it's true; you
also have to have proof.  Anecdotal statements about your friends,
acquaintances or relatives don't constitute proof.

> Second, I didn't name names. And third, I didn't
>talk about all wine makers of Hungary. Just some.

OK, let's see it again:

>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.

I will leave the definition of "commonplace" for you as an exercise.

>>Not that she is TOTALLY wrong.  In SOME (maybe several ;-)) cases farmers
--
>>though not serious vintners -- do add sugar to their grapes to increase the
>>alcohol content of their wines.  This doctoring of the wine is frowned upon
>>by serious winemakers and is practiced mainly in areas not naturally suited
>>to the growing of high quality wine grapes.  The wines of such regions are
of
>>pretty poor quality, with or without enhancement.

>        But these guys who were blockading roads are not "serious vintners"
>as Mr. Novak would like to call them.
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Where did I?

            <snip>

>And, yes,
>they doctor their wines quite openly. One hobby wine grower made me taste

I thought we were talking about farmers...

>And he votes for the Christian Democrats. So, you would like him.

Now, Eva, you've been snooping!  No fair!  :-(

>        Are you saying that I am lying? I am not the lying sort.
>        Eva Balogh

I'll take your word for that ;-)

Ferenc
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Chuchill in one of his speeches said "democracy is the worst system of governme
nt except for all the others". I think it gives food for thought.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Christopher (Kristof) Jones[SMTP:]
Sent:  Saturday, 1 March 1997 12:51
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: It is in the papers ..

In a message dated 97-02-27 23:17:34 EST, Joe Szalai writes:

<< >>Personally, I think crossing the border is wrong, and I wish you every
 >>success in putting all these people in jail.

 >What?  Do you want the doctors to be cops also?  Their job is to help sick
 >people, not to jail them.  Besides, jailing people is almost as costly, if
 >not more so, than treating them.  Besides, we wouldn't have a problem if
 >Americans had medicare similar to ours. >>


There's no pleasing some people.  Let your vaunted Canadian Mounties drag
them into the frozen north and shoot them, then.  Or fine them (which was my
original suggestion) and use the money to buy some actual medical equipment.
 But the problem is yours, not ours, and you wouldn't have it if your medical
system was similar to ours.  You wouldn't have it if your medical system was
similar to Mexico's, either.  Down here we treat you if you want to be
treated (spare me the money diatribe, okay? there are more free hospitals in
Kansas than in Ontario), not if you happen to be the right nationality.

In fact, here's an even better idea.  Let the Americans come, and charge them
the going rate for the services.  You need the money, and we'll stop coming
when the costs are equal.  Watch and see.  Or weren't you looking for a real
solution?

>>In Canada, you often cannot have the operation at all even if you have
>>millions.

>That's right.  Health care is a human right in Canada.  Everyone is supposed
>to be equal.  Health care is not a commodity to be sold on the market.  It
>is a social service.

Why tax for it, then?  Why compel people to pay, even if they don't use the
system?  Everyone was equal in Hungary, too.  This is what you want?  Health
care is a commodity, as is toilet paper.  Or do you have socialized
bathrooms, too?  Why not?  Groceries are a basic human right, too, aren't
they?  Why not socialized supermarkets?  And gas stations!  There's no end to
this, and no way out of it, either.

Health care costs money.  Therefore someone has to pay for it.  In your
country, everyone pays and some benefit.  In mine, nobody pays unless they
benefit.  I wish the costs were more reflective of the actual market, which
would cut the cost dramatically.  Maybe someday.

>And just who do you think the government is?  It's us.  We are a democratic
>people and we freely elect our government.  They are us.  Demonize the
>government and you demonize us.  Why are you so anti-democratic?

>And, thanks for the economics 101 lesson.  You believe that the economy
>depends as much on economists as the weather does on weather forecasters.

Absolutely right.  Economics and weather have that in common.  They both just
do their thing, and the experts try to explain what is already obvious to
everyone.  Or should I say, almost everyone?

Should I snip that first paragraph and send it to Reuters?  You must be the
last Canadian that really believes you have something to do with what the
government decides.  Down here we abandoned that illusion long ago.  You
yourself demonize the government with nearly every post.  Do you demonize
yourself?  Are you certain that your vote has so much effect on the hundreds
of legislators in Ottawa?  It's a great attitude, Joe, and I am sincerely
glad that NAFTA, etc. has not dimmed your bright belief that your government
is actually controlled by you.

I am not a big fan of Democracy (and you aren't, either), but I love
Republicanism.  I just reject the notion that America is a true Republic.
 Canada is not, either.  Power is not really in the hands of the people,
whatever delusions we permit ourselves, and until it is, we will keep
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

That system is fine for those in employment where part of the salary package is
 the payment of health insurance by the employer. I am gravely worried though w
hat happens to the unemployed and those not so covered. The official unemployme
nt rate in the USA is around 5% which is about 13.5 million people. To this mus
t be added those who are on part time or casual work and you have a huge number
 of people even if my calculation is overly simplistic.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Christopher (Kristof) Jones[SMTP:]
Sent:  Saturday, 1 March 1997 12:51
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: It is in the papers ..

In a message dated 97-02-27 19:53:22 EST, Agnes writes:

<< When all the different dis/advantages between the US and
 Canadian tax/health structure at large, are closely scrutinized, I would be
 very surprised if you all would not come to the same conclusion we have, on
 several occasions.  And, those Canadians who have opted to migrate south
 have come to;  that  being, that a person say earning $40,000.00/year in
 Canada, can and will have a better lifestyle in the US; while be able to
 afford to acquire a fairly comprehensive Health Insurance coverage at the
 same time. The consensus has always been, that regardless of Health care;
 people south of us have, and continue to have it better. >>

Aniko-

Kezet csokolom.  You make a good point, but please let me say that I do not
think the U.S. system is great.  I think it smells bad.  It is, in my
opinion, the best in the world, but it could surely be improved by the total
deregulation of the health insurance industry, and the partial deregulation
of healthcare providers.

Costs in the U.S. are propped up by large insurance agencies, who have this
cozy arrangement whereby businesses get tax breaks for purchasing health
insurance for their employees.  Now, don't misunderstand me, I love tax
breaks, but why not extend them to individuals?  That would force insurance
companies to compete, which would lower costs, and it would let individuals
negotiate their own deals, bringing competition back to the industry.  Hey
presto!  A 50% reduction in hospital charges!

Unfortunately, costs are high here because the costs are hidden.  We pay the
insurance companies, and they pay the providers, and never the twain shall
meet.  Consumers need to get back in the loop.

I suspect a similar problem exists there in the North.

Udv.

Kristof
+ - Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!
There is a Hungarian saying "minden szentnek maga felé hajlik a keze." There ar
e rules and laws, whether dealing with tax or with disability and it is the job
 of the legislators to draw up the laws in a fair way but without loopholes "bi
g enough to drive a train through". It is up to the couts then to interpret tho
se laws. As far as the individual is concerned we have to live within the laws 
but there is no reason why we should not take advantage of any loopholes or unc
ertainties in the drafting of the laws.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Joe Szalai[SMTP:]
Sent:  Saturday, 1 March 1997 6:02
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  A Nation of Thieves and Crooks?

On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Eva S. Balogh, on Re: About peasants, wintners, vs.
government, wrote:

> At 07:08 AM 2/28/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
> >At 09:02 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Janos Zsargo, wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >>        It may not be the whole society but most people try to get as much
> >>out of the system as possible. And the system is such that a lot can be
> >>milked out of it.
> >
> >Legally or illegally?
> >
> >It has been my experience that most people, the vast majority, live legally.
> >Most people will not cheat!  They will live by the rules.  Maybe your
> >coterie of friends are different.
>
>         Some legally and some illegally, as I mentioned the guidelines are
> lax. For example, when certain kind of disability you can still work
> legally. But some are paying off crooked doctors.
>
>         As to my dishonest "coterie of friends," I don't have friends on
> disability. As for your comment: it was pretty low.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my last comment.  However, it is not as
inflamatory as your comment that "most" Hungarians try and get as much out
of the system as they can.  "Most", in my book, is well over fifty per
cent.  And if more than fifty per cent abuse the system then you're
implying that Hungary is a nation of thieves and crooks.  And I don't buy
it.

Surely there are studies that show how many people tend to abuse any given
system or programme.  However, your propensity to always see the abuse is
ideologically based.  It makes me suspect that you're opposed to the
programmes or systems as much as you're opposed to the abuse.

Joe Szalai
+ - Surely there seems to be an undue concern about taxing (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Janos Zsargo[SMTP:]
Sent:  Saturday, 1 March 1997 8:45
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY

E.Balogh wrote:

>[Out of the approximately half a million smallholders only 13,229 admitted
>to any taxable income in 1995. This admitted taxable income was so low that
>on the average it involved only 68,000 Fts in taxes. However, since under
>110,000 Fts they didn't have to pay taxes, the great majority paid not a
>penny. In comparison, as of December 31, 1995, individual farmers had in
>ther possession approximately 25 percent of Hungary five million cows, half
>of the country's five million pigs, 75 percent of all sheep and 60 percent
>of 31 million chickens.]

There is one little problem with this comparision. The cows, pigs, sheeps, etc
are investment for these smallholders and not necessarily making profit. In
other words one can own the entire General Motors, but if it is producing
deficit instead of profit, the owner might end up with negative income.
(I do not know whether the GM makes profit or not, this was just an example
and has nothing to do with the reality!)

If you, Eva, or your friend could provide a statistics about how many
luxury goods owned by these smallholders (like: expensive cars, houses),
that would be more informative.

J.Zs
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Unless Andy arrived in Canada as a pensioner he probably prepaid his healthcare
 through his taxes while he was earning. I think that is how it should be by an
d large.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Joe Szalai[SMTP:]
Sent:  Saturday, 1 March 1997 12:37
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Health care.

At 08:02 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Andy, I don't think that you read my last letter on health care. The fact
>is that you are wrong: healthcare is not free for you, just as Antiko
>explain, and it is not free for me. I pay directly, you pay indirectly.
>That's the only difference.

No Eva.  Andy is right and you are wrong.  Andy is a pensioner and
pensioners don't pay a penny for health care.  Now, if Andy was living in
the United States, and he didn't have private coverage, would he have the
same access to health care as he does in Canada?  I don't think so.  So
there's more of a difference than you'd like to believe.  Also, in Canada,
everyone has the same equal access to health care.  I believe we're more
compassionate toward each other than Americans are.  And I want to keep it
that way.

Joe Szalai

It's not enough to be Hungarian; you must have talent too.
                -- Alexander Korda
+ - Correction (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sorry, but it must be too late. I wrote this absolutely meaningless
garbage:

>What you sound theoretically might be all right but I just can't imagine
that it is so.

        I meant to say: What you say might be theoretically all right....

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:11 AM 3/1/97 -0400, Aniko  wrote:

> For example; is your annual health care expense not considered as
>an eligible expense which reduces your taxable income on an annual basis?
>If your answer is yes; than you, as an individual are a beneficiary of a
>tax break.

The answer is yes and no. An individual can deduct health-care expenses
above a certain percentage of his/her gross income (I think it is 10%). This
means no deductibility for almost everyone.

And yes, companies can deduct health insurance expenses as regular expenses.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:52 AM 3/1/97 +1100, Denes Bogsanyi  wrote:

>There is an in principle difference between tax minimisation which is legal
and tax cheating which is illegal but in practice it is often difficult to
find this difference.

Just leave it to the IRS (Internal Revenue Service), they'll find it for you.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:37 PM 2/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:02 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>Andy, I don't think that you read my last letter on health care. The fact
>>is that you are wrong: healthcare is not free for you, just as Antiko
>>explain, and it is not free for me. I pay directly, you pay indirectly.
>>That's the only difference.
>
>No Eva.  Andy is right and you are wrong.  Andy is a pensioner and
>pensioners don't pay a penny for health care.  Now, if Andy was living in
>the United States, and he didn't have private coverage, would he have the
>same access to health care as he does in Canada?  I don't think so.  So
>there's more of a difference than you'd like to believe.  Also, in Canada,
>everyone has the same equal access to health care.  I believe we're more
>compassionate toward each other than Americans are.  And I want to keep it
>that way.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>It's not enough to be Hungarian; you must have talent too.
>                -- Alexander Korda
>
>Right on Joe.Regadless what our dear cousins say,I stick with our system
any time.At the same time they can have theres.
It just ahows you,how much realy they know about our way of life.Hurrah for
Canada.
Andy.
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:50 PM 2/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-02-27 07:43:57 EST, Joe Szalai writes:
>
><< And why?  Well, I believe that the
> Ontario government wants to ruin medicare.  They want to drive it into the
> ground.  Then they can tell us that it's too expensive and doesn't work.
> And after that, they can set up a system for the rich and another one for
> the rest of us.  In short, they want to Americanize medicare.  And they have
> the federal Liberal government's (sub-rosa) blessing in doing so. >>
>
>I'm confused.  I thought you had a democratically elected government.  This
>must be what you want, then ;-)
>
>Kristof
>
>No Kristof:we did not elevt the present governement to demolish all that
what past governements worked for.Just wtch the firevorks wich will happen
this week
Our Premier assured us,before he was elected,not to touch any hospitals.Now
we see he is a plain politician,who changes his mind after he is elected.
We,at least some of us,elect a governement,on the promisses they feed
us.Then when they are elected they change there mind.Good for them,since
they have only a couple of more years to govern.Then change will come,and
that is democracy
Kristof,not like in the States,where most of the Senators,congressman,up to
the top,are just there for there own,and special lobyist.
Hey I still belive this is a better system,and with it a better Country.
Andy.
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>No Eva.  Andy is right and you are wrong.  Andy is a pensioner and
>pensioners don't pay a penny for health care.

Joe, are pensioners in Canada exempt from the indirect methods of paying for
their health care, such as sales taxes, etc.? It never occurred to me before
you wrote this post that Canada might exempt retirees from the kinds of
indirect taxation Aniko was talking about. Kinda brings new meaning to the
Vulcan salutation, "Live long and prosper," eh?

>Now, if Andy was living in
>the United States, and he didn't have private coverage, would he have the
>same access to health care as he does in Canada?  I don't think so.

If Andy lived in the U.S. and had reached the age of retirement, he'd be
covered by Medicare, which is about as all-embracing in terms of covering
treatment, hospitalization, medication and long-term care as you can get
without imposing draconic costs on younger workers.

>So
>there's more of a difference than you'd like to believe.  Also, in Canada,
>everyone has the same equal access to health care.  I believe we're more
>compassionate toward each other than Americans are.  And I want to keep it
>that way.

How does one quantitatively measure compassion, Joe? And is compassion such a
worthwhile virtue that it should override other, conflicting virtues, such as
reason when making public policy?
Sam Stowe
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>




"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
long as they can stagger to the polls."
--Will Rogers
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:42 PM 3/1/97 GMT, Sam wrote:

>Joe, are pensioners in Canada exempt from the indirect methods of paying for
>their health care, such as sales taxes, etc.? It never occurred to me before
>you wrote this post that Canada might exempt retirees from the kinds of
>indirect taxation Aniko was talking about. Kinda brings new meaning to the
>Vulcan salutation, "Live long and prosper," eh?

        That's my question also. Because if yes, then the Canadian system
might be actually more expensive because people on Medicare don't pay the
kind of taxes Aniko was talking about.

        Eva
+ - Fwd: Fenn van - reszben OK is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Egy kis lelekvidito mindannyiotoknak. Liptak Bela
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Sandor Posvari)
To:	
Date: 97-03-01 10:05:18 EST

Kedves Bélabátyó,
Nos:
12-kor kezdtunk azzal, hogy a Bihari Gabor megjelent rovidnadragban, vallig
ero hajjal es mindenfelevel a nyakaban. Kidezult, meg nem nezte meg a
page-et ott van zip-elve a szerveren. 
Jott a webmaster. Nem lehetett kibontani a Sorosek rendszeren a
zip-file-t!!!!! No de @llexx mindenre gondol: elovettem a zsebembol egy
lemezt, amin onkicsomagolo .exe formatumban volt meg az anyag. Indulas elott
az utolso pillanatban tettem be a zsebembe.
Nos, ezen tuljutottunk. Igen am, de VALAMENNYI file neve nagybetus lett az o
rendszerukkel, ezeket MIND at kellett irni kisbeture. Ezutam vamennyi htm
formatumu file-ban a linkeleseket is at kellett irni kisbetusre ill.
egyeseket kicsit atalakitani, mert a Win95 mas, mint az o rendszeruk
(Silicon Graphics).
Mindez megtortent, amikor a bal oldalon vizszintesen voltak a gif-ek, erre
oda is kulon-kulon be kellett szurni egy-egy <br> jelzest.
No, ekkor mar ment, mint a karikacsapas. Ekkor jott a webmaster megint, hogy
a levelezorendszert beallitsa. Nem sikerult es egy ido utan mas dolga akadt,
igy ez fuggoben maradt.
Nos ennyi. Fo hogy ott van, most alszom egy kicsit, utana keresunk
segitseget a vitaforum belovesehez.
Üdv
@llexx
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Sandor POSVARI Citizen of Ladonia: www.aim.se/ladonia/
H-1145 Budapest, Amerikai út 47.
Voice: (+36-1) 222-6379
Fax/Voice reciver::(+36-1) 252-1302
GSM: (+36-30) 493923
E-mail: 
http://euroastra.interdnet.hu
> --------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Fwd: Fenn van - reszben OK is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Egy kis lelekvidito mindannyiotoknak. Liptak Bela
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Sandor Posvari)
To:     
Date: 97-03-01 10:05:18 EST

Kedves Bélabátyó,
Nos:
12-kor kezdtunk azzal, hogy a Bihari Gabor megjelent rovidnadragban, vallig
ero hajjal es mindenfelevel a nyakaban. Kidezult, meg nem nezte meg a
page-et ott van zip-elve a szerveren. 
Jott a webmaster. Nem lehetett kibontani a Sorosek rendszeren a
zip-file-t!!!!! No de @llexx mindenre gondol: elovettem a zsebembol egy
lemezt, amin onkicsomagolo .exe formatumban volt meg az anyag. Indulas elott
az utolso pillanatban tettem be a zsebembe.
Nos, ezen tuljutottunk. Igen am, de VALAMENNYI file neve nagybetus lett az o
rendszerukkel, ezeket MIND at kellett irni kisbeture. Ezutam vamennyi htm
formatumu file-ban a linkeleseket is at kellett irni kisbetusre ill.
egyeseket kicsit atalakitani, mert a Win95 mas, mint az o rendszeruk
(Silicon Graphics).
Mindez megtortent, amikor a bal oldalon vizszintesen voltak a gif-ek, erre
oda is kulon-kulon be kellett szurni egy-egy <br> jelzest.
No, ekkor mar ment, mint a karikacsapas. Ekkor jott a webmaster megint, hogy
a levelezorendszert beallitsa. Nem sikerult es egy ido utan mas dolga akadt,
igy ez fuggoben maradt.
Nos ennyi. Fo hogy ott van, most alszom egy kicsit, utana keresunk
segitseget a vitaforum belovesehez.
Üdv
@llexx
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Sandor POSVARI Citizen of Ladonia: www.aim.se/ladonia/
H-1145 Budapest, Amerikai út 47.
Voice: (+36-1) 222-6379
Fax/Voice reciver::(+36-1) 252-1302
GSM: (+36-30) 493923
E-mail: 
http://euroastra.interdnet.hu
> --------------------------------------------------------------
+ - FW: Fwd: HL: [Fwd: Re: First Environmental Lawsuit (Dan (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Slava Dumnului Vostri,
noi multumim!
La multi ani traiti, dragul prieten roman!
Miklos Hoffmann

Radu Murgescu Jr. from the Romanian Lobby wrote :


>From: Radu Murgescu >
To: 
Subject: RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
 United States Secretary of State
 U.S. Department of State
 2201 C Street, NW
 Washington, DC 20520
 ( E-Mail:  )

 RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

 Dear Madame Secretary:

 ....

 Madame Secretary, a single statement from you may greatly help to
 resolve this issue.
 Please make that statement.

 Respectfully yours,

        Radu Murgescu Jr.
        Member of the Romanian Lobby
        18824 Tupelo Lane
        Dallas, TX 75287
        (972) 306-8129
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:42 PM 3/1/97 GMT, you wrote:
>In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:
>
>>No Eva.  Andy is right and you are wrong.  Andy is a pensioner and
>>pensioners don't pay a penny for health care.
>
>Joe, are pensioners in Canada exempt from the indirect methods of paying for
>their health care, such as sales taxes, etc.? It never occurred to me before
>you wrote this post that Canada might exempt retirees from the kinds of
>indirect taxation Aniko was talking about. Kinda brings new meaning to the
>Vulcan salutation, "Live long and prosper," eh?
>
>>Now, if Andy was living in
>>the United States, and he didn't have private coverage, would he have the
>>same access to health care as he does in Canada?  I don't think so.
>
>If Andy lived in the U.S. and had reached the age of retirement, he'd be
>covered by Medicare, which is about as all-embracing in terms of covering
>treatment, hospitalization, medication and long-term care as you can get
>without imposing draconic costs on younger workers.
>
>>So
>>there's more of a difference than you'd like to believe.  Also, in Canada,
>>everyone has the same equal access to health care.  I believe we're more
>>compassionate toward each other than Americans are.  And I want to keep it
>>that way.
>
>How does one quantitatively measure compassion, Joe? And is compassion such a
>worthwhile virtue that it should override other, conflicting virtues, such as
>reason when making public policy?
>Sam Stowe
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>>
>>Sam:does medicare a compassionet policy?It is still alive and vell,since AARP
is one of the strongest lobying group.How much of the younger workers taxes
goes toward this compassionet policy?
Yes in my 49 years in Canada I paid taxes,I worked,and now as a seniour I
have the right,to Ohip,or medicare.We are not over duing it.Latly seniors
have to pay
either $100 or $2.00 per perscription depending on there income.
Since our lobyist are far from Us ones,this is the law now.
It is futile to argue whose system is better,nevertheles somehow I think
canadian people are as Joe said it,more compassionet.See all the volounteers,
caring,and making a point about poor people,children,and less about seniors.
Let's live in our own country,we can not change it at this time anyway.(not
that I want to).
Andy.
>
>
>
>
>"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
>long as they can stagger to the polls."
>--Will Rogers
>
>
+ - FW: Re: The Cost of NATO expansion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:

>NATO is a dinosaur.  I'm one of those weird people that thinks that if
>the U.S. had brought everyone home from Europe in 1960, the cold war would
>have been over thirty years ago.

<No, I don't think it's weird to think the cold war would have been over.
<The outcome might have been slightly different though, at least in Europe.
<(:-))

J.Zs

I do not understand you J.Zs. : the outcome in Europe wouldn4t
have been :-) but rather :-(, :-(, :-(, :-(,.....
(:-))

( Just back and tired )
+ - Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Not in Australia where a system of self assessment prevails. This means that ta
x returns are sampled by the Tax Office for full audit and any discrepancy is t
reated as "cheating" and is subject to heavy fines.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  S or G Farkas[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 2 March 1997 0:06
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government

At 06:52 AM 3/1/97 +1100, Denes Bogsanyi  wrote:

>There is an in principle difference between tax minimisation which is legal
and tax cheating which is illegal but in practice it is often difficult to
find this difference.

Just leave it to the IRS (Internal Revenue Service), they'll find it for you.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Healthcare. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva:Aniko was talking about a province,Nova Scotia,where unknown to the rest
of us,there might use the so called GST(wich evrybody hates),actualy a value
added tax wich is 7%.
Yes we pay this evry time we by something,except on food,drugs,etc.In
Ontario and I believ the rest of the country,this does not go for
medicare.It is something different in NS.wich has an agreement maybe with
the feds,about where this tax is going.
Here in Ontario,"medicare "is still " free".As I mentioned,we still can not
compare the American Medicare to our health care.
As a retired person,as I understand it,in the states you have evrithing covered
.
Thank's to AArp,nobody dares to touch it,since tgis would be a political bomb.
I am here you are there,wich is better I don't know.I know that for the time
being I am stil satisfyd with it.For how long,I don't know,but I will let
you know,when I changed my mind.
Regards:Andy.
+ - Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:47 PM 3/1/97 +1000, Denes Bogsanyi  wrote:
>Not in Australia where a system of self assessment prevails. This means
that tax returns are sampled by the Tax Office for full audit and any
discrepancy is treated as "cheating" and is subject to heavy fines.
>
>Regards
>Dénes 
>>
>----------
>From:  S or G Farkas[SMTP:]
>Sent:  Sunday, 2 March 1997 0:06
>To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
>Subject:  Re: About peasants, wintners, farmers vs. government
>
>At 06:52 AM 3/1/97 +1100, Denes Bogsanyi  wrote:
>
>>There is an in principle difference between tax minimisation which is legal
>and tax cheating which is illegal but in practice it is often difficult to
>find this difference.
>
>Just leave it to the IRS (Internal Revenue Service), they'll find it for you.
>

The situation is somewhat similar in the United States. That's what I meant
by "they'll find it for you".

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Feb 28 20:04:58 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #928:

>At 03:01 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

                            <snip>

> (By the way, you may have noticed that both Ferenc Novak and Gyorgy
>Kadar had to admit that the charge of making wine is not "totally" untrue.

Somehow, I don't consider it a compliment to be referred to as an authority
in this matter.  Speaking for myself, I didn't HAVE to admit anything (and I
doubt Kadar Gyuri had to, either).  We both agreed that the practice existed.
 I simply took issue with your assertion that

>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.

However, your next statement

>That means, coming from them, that they know as well as I do that the
>practice is extremely widespread. Otherwise, they would deny it outright.)

is total nonsense.  It is also an insult.

>        Moreover, knowing your political views you would give away the last
>pots and pans of the country to some of the "downtrodden" of the world,
>desering or not. But you know that people who must provide might not like
>the idea of providing for every no-good, including wife beaters, alcoholics,
>drug addicts, burglers, rapists, and so on and so forth. There is a limit to
>honest working people's patience.
>
>        And now you can go and tell that Eva Balogh is a heartles creature.
>
>        Eva Balogh

I am shocked.  As one considered by you to be a right-winger, I just can't
believe anyone, let alone one calling herself a liberal, could utter such
sentiments.  Maybe of the two of us I am the true liberal? :-)

OK, maybe you just had a bad day.  But don't you think that statements such
as:

      "Dear Gyorgy, this is becoming tiresome. "
      "The trouble with you is that you are an ideologue and a political
partisan"

are rather tiresome and unproductive, not to say insulting to your debating
partners?  They really tend to weaken even your valid points.

Ferenc
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:52 PM 3/1/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 03:42 PM 3/1/97 GMT, Sam wrote:
>
>>Joe, are pensioners in Canada exempt from the indirect methods of paying for
>>their health care, such as sales taxes, etc.? It never occurred to me before
>>you wrote this post that Canada might exempt retirees from the kinds of
>>indirect taxation Aniko was talking about. Kinda brings new meaning to the
>>Vulcan salutation, "Live long and prosper," eh?
>
>        That's my question also. Because if yes, then the Canadian system
>might be actually more expensive because people on Medicare don't pay the
>kind of taxes Aniko was talking about.
>
>        Eva

I don't know Aniko's situation in Nova Scotia.  However, she may be confused
about indirect taxation paying for health care.  I've lived in Ontario,
Quebec, and Alberta, and as far as I know, I never paid for health care
through indirect taxes.

My understanding of health care in Canada is that it's universal, first come
first served, and free - at point of service.  It is paid for by payroll
deductions.  So, if you work, you pay.  If you don't, you don't.

Also, the Canada Health Act forbids user fees.  Several years ago, the
Conservative government in Alberta tried to introduce user fees for some
medical procedures.  The federal government in Ottawa told them that they
would be deducted a huge amount from the federal transfer payments if they
went ahead with those fees.  Alberta didn't.  The penalty would have been
too great.

Those who are healthy and employed pay a lot of money to provide universal
health care for all.  I'm healthy and I'm lucky enough to be employed.  I
don't mind taking home less money with each paycheque knowing that all
citizens get good health care.  And yes, I know that there is some abuse of
the system.  Hospital CEOs, for example, get paid too much money and we
haven't figured out how to prevent hypochondriacs from taking too much out
of the system.  But, would I have it any other way?  No!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:42 PM 3/1/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>Joe, are pensioners in Canada exempt from the indirect methods of paying for
>their health care, such as sales taxes, etc.?

We don't pay for health care indirectly.  We pay for it through payroll
deductions.  If you don't work, you don't pay.

>It never occurred to me before
>you wrote this post that Canada might exempt retirees from the kinds of
>indirect taxation Aniko was talking about. Kinda brings new meaning to the
>Vulcan salutation, "Live long and prosper," eh?

Aniko doesn't know what she's talking about, and I can say that without fear
of her jumping all over me, because she's out of the country for a while and
by the time she returns this will be an old argument.

Actually, senior citizens whose only income is a fixed government pension
and those who don't make much money get a GST rebate, from the federal
government, three times a year.  That may work out to three or four hundred
a year, and it's meant to offset any hardship they may have, paying the
goods and services tax (GST).  It's possible to get more of a rebate than
one pays in GST, if you're low income and don't buy much.

<snip>
>If Andy lived in the U.S. and had reached the age of retirement, he'd be
>covered by Medicare, which is about as all-embracing in terms of covering
>treatment, hospitalization, medication and long-term care as you can get
>without imposing draconic costs on younger workers.

Meaning that it's not as good as Andy would get in Canada.  It seems to me
that you'd prefer "imposing draconic costs" on seniors.  As Andy, and I, and
others in Canada have said before - you keep your system and we'll keep
ours.  Not all social programmes lead to communism, you know.  Or maybe you
don't.

<snip>
>How does one quantitatively measure compassion, Joe?

I don't know Sam.  Why don't you tell me.

>And is compassion such a worthwhile virtue that it should override other,
>conflicting virtues, such as reason when making public policy?

Yes.

Joe Szalai

It is one of the superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that
virginity could be a virtue.
                -- Voltaire
+ - Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:40 PM 3/1/97 +1100, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:

>Hello!
>There is a Hungarian saying "minden szentnek maga felé hajlik a keze."
There >are rules and laws, whether dealing with tax or with disability and
it is >the job of the legislators to draw up the laws in a fair way but
without >loopholes "big enough to drive a train through". It is up to the
courts then >to interpret those laws. As far as the individual is concerned
we have to >live within the laws but there is no reason why we should not
take advantage >of any loopholes or uncertainties in the drafting of the laws.

I agree with you, Denes.  However, Eva Balogh was implying something quite
different.

Joe Szalai
+ - Taxes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:46 PM 3/1/97 +1100, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:

>Surely there seems to be an undue concern about taxing income whereas a
>simpler and fairer method might be to tax expenditure.
>
>Regards
>Dénes 

It's easier to avoid paying taxes when buying a service or product than it
is when income is taxed.  Also, how would you make taxing expenditure
progressive, as in "progressive tax"?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Why tax for it, then?  Why compel people to pay, even if they don't use
the
>system?

Kristof, Kristof.  Do you buy fire or  car insurance?  Some people pay
for insurance for many decades and never collect.  But you still buy it,
or don't you?

Re the health care system, eventually everybody will use it.  Everybody
will get sick one time or another.

On my dementia hot line, there was a desperate note from a lady whose
husband, a 58 years old university professor somewhere in California, was
diagnosed with Pick's disease (an Azheimer type dementia).  The
university wanted to lay him off.  To my amazement, it turned out that
the univesity had no disability insurance.  They didn't buy any private
disability insurance because it was too expensive.  Probably, these
people also thought that they will be young and healthy forever!'

Agnes
+ - Re: How's Budapest in July? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>
>Hello,
>
>I'm currently a university student in the United States (California),
and
>I'm going to (hopefully) be studying in Budapest during the month of
>July, 1997.  I'd appreciate any information (specific, general,
>whimsical...anything is welcome!) about the city and the climate, etc.
>
>And an oddly specific question: anyone know how much (and how long) a
>train trip to Ljubljana, Slovenia would be from Budapest?
>
>Thanks for reading this.
>
>Best,
>Jesse Saich


July is usually very-very hot in Budapest.  And I think there are still
not too many air conditioned places there.

Agnes
+ - Re: Info on Budapest, Hungary for tourists (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>My wife's family is getting together in Prague for one week this summer
and
>we will have an extra week left of vacation. I would love to spend that
>second week in Hungary; this is where my (maternal) grandparents came
from
>(they emigrated to the U.S. in 1913). I grew up with these grandparents
and
>I have fond memories of my grandfather's stories about Budapest where he
>apprenticed as a tailor. I would love to visit this city and also the
town
>where they originally came from. I am not sure about the spelling; the
name
>I remember is Moonkatch.
>
>Can anyone point me to a comprehensive guide for tourists visiting both
>Budapest and the countryside? I would need information on renting a car,
>maps (where is Moonkatch? Is it still in Hungary?) places to visit along
>the way and places to stay. Any help is greatly appreciated.
>Bill Dickter


If you into the web on Hungary, you will find all the info on tourism.
The location of your grandmother is spelled Munkacs - and it is not in
present day Hungary.

Incidentally, Budapest and surroundings are beautiful and there is lots
to see - I strongly recommend it.

Agnes

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