Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 110
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-10-20
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: help (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: who's Joe Hill (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: potluck (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: who's Joe Hill (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
6 Revolution? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
9 Comparative Central-European opposition (Was: Re: Gro's (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Military Service in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: who's Joe Hill (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
12 Excessive amount of included text (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: interwar Hungary, per OCPW (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
15 Rosenbergs (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Compensation coupons (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
17 EVA: energy effiency conference (mind)  336 sor     (cikkei)
18 Malthusian Nobel prize (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
20 import/export data (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Regarding COMPENSATION COUPONS!!! (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
24 Military Service in the A-H Monarchy (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
25 Anti-semitism (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Military Service in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
32 help (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
33 1989, 1919 (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: help (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
35 Interview with Gro1sz (mind)  80 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Anti-semitism (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: potluck (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
39 tainted paprika?? (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
41 csab (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: help (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To Marianna Labbancz who wrote about plans to build a Gypsy church in eastern
 Hungary--

Thanks for the information, but most of us--well, me, anyway--need more
 detailedand specific information on exactly to whom and how to send donations.
 I assumethat the number you gave is the bank number f transfers

or money transfers, but I have no
clue how to go about it.

Udv.,
Be'la

+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sandor Lengyel raises the intriguing and troubling issue of whether terror
caused by ideology (the Red terror) is more despicable than terror carried
out in revenge (the White terror).

I'm not sure that a strictly moral calculus will get us very far, but what
does seem certain on the historical record (Naziism, Stalinism) is that
ideologically-inspired terror is by definition limitless--it goes on until
there is no one left to terrify, or until it is defeated militarily, or un-
til the supreme leader dies and the system itself is transformed.  Non-
ideological terror seems to be self-limiting, perhaps because its purposes
are finite.  It may not be less despicable, since the principle of terror in
either case is directed at literally innocent people, but it does seem to be
less dangerous to the survival of society and the world.

Udv.,
Be1la

+ - Re: who's Joe Hill (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well put.  You might add that he was known as "The Wobbly Songbird"
and his song was sung even by fairly conservative AFL craft unionists who
detested his anarchistic Wobbly or IWW (International Workers of the World)
one-big union ideology.  The IWW was big on the U.S. West coast from Calif
to Washington and was led by "Big Bill Haywood" who was thrown out of the
nascent USSR by Lenin because he would not sign the "21 Demands" subordin-
ating all signatories to the Soviet-controlled Comintern or Third
International.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Tue, 18 Oct 1994  wrote:

> according to ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/music/lyrics/
>
>                         ***
>
>                         JOE HILL
>
>
> I dreamt I saw Joe Hill last night,
> Alive as you or me
> Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead,"
> "I never died," says he
> "I never died," says he
>
> "In Salt Lake, Joe," says I to him,
> Him standing by my bed,
> "They framed you on a murder charge,"
> Says Joe, "But I ain't dead,"
> Says Joe, "But I ain't dead."
>
> "The copper bosses killed you, Joe,
> They shot you, Joe," says I.
> "Takes more than guns to kill a man,"
> Says Joe, "I didn't die,"
> Says Joe, "I didn't die."
>
> And standing there as big as life
> And smiling with his eyes
> Joe says, "What they forgot to kill
> Went on to organize,
> Went on to organize."
>
> "Joe Hill ain't dead," he says to me,
> "Joe Hill ain't never died.
> Where working men are out on strike
> Joe Hill is at their side,
> Joe Hill is at their side."
>
> "From San Diego up to Maine,
> In every mine and mill,
> Where workers strike and organize,"
> Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill,"
> Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill."
>
> I dreamt I saw Joe Hill last night,
> Alive as you or me
> Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead,"
> "I never died," says he
> "I never died," says he
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Music by Earl Robinson, copyright 1938 by Bob Miller, Inc.
>
> Joe Hill, a great organizer and poet, was executed in 1915 on a
> murder charge which union circles have always considered a frame-
> up.  This song, written in his memory, is one of the most moving
> of all the labor songs.
> Recorded by Paul Robeson, Baez- One Day at a Time
>                         ***
>
> That's Joe Hill.
>
> --Greg
>
+ - Re: potluck (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul asks about Wolverine and a possible second potluck--

I had been in pretty regular correspondence with Wolverine over the summer,
when he decided to drop off the list.  He then moved from D.C. to the suburbs
in Maryland and was hoping to get an adjunct teaching job somewhere.  I have
not heard from him in a couple of months, and he never did mention anything
about another potluck.

Udv.,
Be1la

+ - Re: who's Joe Hill (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I forgot to mention that Joe Hill himself (the Wobbly songbird)
wrote the amusing satire on the old hymn "In the Sweet Bye and Bye":

        Long haired preachers come out every night
        Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right
        But when asked about something to eat
        They reply in accents so sweet:
        "You will eat, bye and bye
        In that wonderful land in the sky
        Work and pray
        Live on hay
        You'll get pie in the sky when you die!


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Revolution? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I do not thing that the political changes in Hungary in 1988-1990 should be
called a revolution. It was a negotiated process after all.

The opposition could regularly organize mass ralies on several issues in 1988
and 1989. These issues were: protesting against the Romanian "systemisation"
policy (the plan for destroying most villages), against the Danube dam, in
memory of the victims of Brassow revolt, celebrating 15 March, etc. The series
culminated in the reburrial of Imre Nagy. These demonstrations were rarely
directly anti-communist, however they clearly demonstrated the strong popular
support of the opposition. This support was an important part of the process.
It put pressure on the communist party, greatly contributing to its demise.

However, the most important factor was economic. Both the party and the people
realised that the economic crisis could not be overcome within the framework
of the socialist system. So it had to be scrapped. The leadership just threw
in the towel and gave it all up.

Ga'bor Ko"ro~si
+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Good points all and they do advance the argument a bit.  But what
do you do with the fact that ideologues (e.g. Andrei Zhelyabov in Russia
in the 1880's) often do have a morally superior attitude in wanted to
reform a system which has successfully crushed all reform efforts for
generations?
        Perhaps only a great dramatist can depict usefully the tragic
denouement of the "law of unintended consequences," i.e., that the worst
terror is carried out by persons of high if not superior personal char-
acter, e.g. Robbespiere and Derzhinsky!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, W. BATKAY wrote:

> Sandor Lengyel raises the intriguing and troubling issue of whether terror
> caused by ideology (the Red terror) is more despicable than terror carried
> out in revenge (the White terror).
>
> I'm not sure that a strictly moral calculus will get us very far, but what
> does seem certain on the historical record (Naziism, Stalinism) is that
> ideologically-inspired terror is by definition limitless--it goes on until
> there is no one left to terrify, or until it is defeated militarily, or un-
> til the supreme leader dies and the system itself is transformed.  Non-
> ideological terror seems to be self-limiting, perhaps because its purposes
> are finite.  It may not be less despicable, since the principle of terror in
> either case is directed at literally innocent people, but it does seem to be
> less dangerous to the survival of society and the world.
>
> Udv.,
> Be1la
> 
>
+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Terror and killing are terror and killing--I fail to see why they
are more or less morally repugnant when motivated by secular theologies
which we jaded Western intellectuals call "ideology." One could perhaps
argue that when motivated by a more or less since belief in the need for
change unrecognized by "Whites" they are somewhat less reprehensible but
the grim fact seems to be (as witnesssed in Andrei Zheliabov's Narodnaya
Volya to Alexander III and Nicholas II's state-sponsored terror) that
right terror leads to left terror and then is taken over by "apparatchiki"
like Stalin whereupon the revolution eats its own children and the country
is left with a wooden Stalin-oid bureacracy interested only in its personal
nomenklatura welfare.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Sandor Lengyel x5786 wrote:

> I am not excusing the White terror, but it surely was influenced by the Red
> terror, could be compared to revenge killings. Killing begots killing.
> So the White terror was partially caused by the Red terror. Without it
> it would never happened. But the Red terror was caused by ideology. Surely
> such a thing is more despicable.
>
+ - Comparative Central-European opposition (Was: Re: Gro's (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:
>I certainly agree with Ga1bor Ko3ro2s and Andra1s Kornai that the demise of
>the Soviet Union, or rather the Soviet Union's indifference to the events in
>Eastern Europe, was absolutely necessary to alter the political situation in
>the region. Gro1sz is certainly correct pointing this out. But my second
>question has not been answered: was it a revolution from above? As it is well
>known the Hungarian opposition was a very small one. Moreover, they were
>voices in the wilderness. Both Poland and Czechoslovakia boasted with a much
>larger and active opposition with popular support.

You would have much better access to statistics, but my impression was that
opposition in Czechoslovakia was limited to a narrow intellectual core of
the Charter 77 movement, due to the neo-Stalinist oppression of Husak & Co.
In Poland there was a mass movement of opposition, with occasional popular
demonstrations and the well-known emergence of Solidarity.  So, I would have
thought the Hungary was between Poland and Czechoslovakia in the numbers
and activity of the opposition.

However, one should not forget that in Hungary much of the opposition was
'internalized' within the ruling party and in influential positions within the
government bureacracy and research institutes.  The reformist wing of the MSzMP
was quite strong, in sharp contrast especially with Czechoslovakia and even
Poland, and internal critique within the MSzMP was freer than in the other two
countries.  As a result of reformist influence  within the MSzMP, people in
Hungary enjoyed economic freedoms that did not exist in Poland and economic
and political freedoms that were unheard of in Czechoslovakia.  While in
general  there was less personal freedom in Hungary than in Poland some of the
time, there were no bloody crackdowns either since 1959.  Since there
was both less cause to grumble and more scope to take the debate to the
official forums, there was less need to oppose the Hungarian regime from
outside of the system.  As far as economics was concerned, far from being
'voices in the wilderness', opposition to the command economy was actually
working within the system and slowly undermining it.  It was not by chance
that Hungary was in a much better position at the 'official' start of the
transformation than the other Soviet satellites.

>Andra1s mentioned the
>opening of the border as one of the components of the political change. But
>wasn't that a decision coming from above?

Of course it was, being a government decision well within the MSzMP's strategy
to try to transform itself into a party that can survive and win in a
parliamentary democracy in order to preserve its position.

George Antony
+ - Re: Military Service in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Not everyone was drafted. It was up to Parliament to vote the number of
troops the government requested. The military obligation was universal,
military training/service was not. A recruit, if passed over by the draft
board two or three times, was off the hook.

L. J. Elteto
+ - Re: who's Joe Hill (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Regarding Joe Hill ...

Thanks for all who responded to my question.  From what I am able to
detect, he was somebody who must have felt close to John Reed and his
ilk.  Not my kind of guy.

Joe
+ - Excessive amount of included text (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've noticed several posts lately with excessive amount of quoted text.
Some responses have the entire responded to message being included!
Besides being a violation of "netiquette", it's annoying and wasteful.
Could we watch for that in the future?

Thanks,
Joe
+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sandor Lengyel wrote:
j
> I am not excusing the White terror, but it surely was influenced by the Red
> terror, could be compared to revenge killings. Killing begots killing.

I agree with Sandor that the white terror of 1919-20 is morally not
equivalent with the terror of the Hungarian Soviet regime.
The white terror was clearly a revenge taking for the former red terror
during a time when there was no strong central authority established to
prevent those excesses.

Indeed, had the former not happened, we would not talk about white
terror now.

Joe
+ - Re: interwar Hungary, per OCPW (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks to Greg for the
> The Oxford Companion to the Politics of the World, (or was it
> World Politics?)

It was an unusually objective piece of summary of Hungary's interwar
period.  Especially when one considers the source.

Joe
+ - Rosenbergs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

JELIKO KINDLY REPLIED TO MY MESSAGE:
<Yeah, and murderers prevent the overpopulation of the earth and they should
<be rewarded. A Malthusian Nobel prize to Hitler and Stalin.

A Malthusian Nobel Prize?  Not a bad idea!!!  I think Henry Ford should be the
first to receive one.  Thanks to the mass produced automobile, population
growth has slown down dramatically in the developped world...marc
+ - Re: Compensation coupons (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

i also have comp coupon and don't know what to do with them
+ - EVA: energy effiency conference (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

_________________________________________________________________________

=THE DEMAND SIDE ORIENTED INTERNATIONAL ENERGY CONFERENCE in PRAGUE=

******************** Conference Announcement ****************************
*
* Overcoming Barriers to Energy Efficiency
*
* Prague, 28 - 29 November, 1994
*
*************************************************************************

_________________
Location:

Hotel Pyramida, Belohorska 24, Prague 6, Czech Republic

Tel: +42 (2) 311 32 41; Fax: +42 (2) 311 32 91
_________________

Objectives:

The Austrian Energy Agency has completed an extensive two year study on
"Opportunities to Improve Energy Efficiency in the Czech Republic".

The described measures and recommendations concern especially the industry,
household and transportation sectors, while paying a particular attention to
the legal and institutional framework and to the role of awareness,
information and training. The presentation of the main results of the study
will give the impulsion to a discussion of the main issues related to energy
efficiency in Central and Eastern European Countries within a broad
spezialized audience.
        The comprehension of these issues will be further supported by the
presentation of concrete realizations. Eastern and Western experts involved
in these projects or programmes will contribute to an appraisal of the
decisive factors and to the definition of adapted strategies for a successful
implementation in the Central and Eastern European context.
        The conference is aimed to stimulate the development of new
programmes in Central and Eastern Europe and support those interested in
energy efficiency in realizing their plans. For this purpose, the meeting will
contribute to an exchange of experience and information and is expected to
foster co-operation in the implementation of energy efficiency projects
throughout Europe.

Target group:

        Public policy analysts, programme designers or managers, public
officials, government advisors, and representatives of municipalities,
utilities, transportation and industrial companies as well as other companies
involved in energy efficiency.

The participants may already have gathered experience in implementing
projects and programmes or may be planning similar actions. Participants
and contributors are expected from all over Europe.
______________________________________
PROGRAMME OVERVIEW

Monday, November 28th

8:30 -  9:30    Registration
9:30 - 13:15    Opening Session  "Institutions"
                                Lunch
14:30 - 18:00   Panel Session  "Energy Management in Industry"
19:00 - 22:00   Reception

Tuesday, November 29th

8:30 - 12:00    Panel Session  "Energy Efficient Transport Systems"
                                Lunch
13:00 - 16:30   Panel Session  "Local Energy Management"

___________________________________________________________
Monday, November 28th:
______________________________________

Opening Session:  "Institutions"

9:30  -  13:15
Chairperson: Manfred HEINDLER, Austrian Energy Agency (E.V.A.)

Welcome and Introduction:
  Manfred HEINDLER, Austrian Energy Agency (E.V.A.), Vienna, Austria
  Vladislav BIZEK, Czech Ministry for the Environment, Prague, Czech
  Republic
  Milan CERNY, Czech Ministry for Industry and Trade, Prague, Czech
  Republic

Regulative Framework:
  "Don't Look Back: Design a New Regulatory Framework", Herbert LECHNER,
   Austrian Energy Agency, Vienna, Austria

Institutional and Legal Barriers:
   "Institutional and Legal Barriers for Energy Efficiency in Countries
    in Transition and Strategies to Overcome them", Pascal HABAY, BCEOM,
    Guyancourt, France

European Union:
   "Energy Efficiency Policy in the European Union and its Implications
    for the Central and Eastern European Countries", Terkel NIELSEN,
    Commission of the European Communities, Brussels, Belgium

Coffee Break

Energy Agencies:
   "The Role of Energy Agencies and the Twinning Programme for Energy
    Efficiency", Peter van LUYT, NOVEM, Sittard, Netherlands

EC-Energy Centres:
   "Experience of the Hungarian EC-Energy Centre in the Promotion of
    Energy Efficiency", Ian BROWN, EC-Energy Centre, Budapest, Hungary

Interest Groups:
   "The Czech Energy Policy - A Public Concern", Vaclav SIMUNEK, Czech
    Association of Energy Managers, Prague, Czech Republic
__________________________________
Lunch
__________________________________
Panel Session: "Energy Management in Industry"
14:30  -  18:00
Chairperson: Bruno VALLANCE, Austrian Energy Agency (E.V.A.)

Introduction:
   "Opportunities to Improve Energy Efficiency in the Czech Industry",
    Bruno VALLANCE, Austrian Energy Agency, Vienna, Austria

Managerial Behaviour:
   "Management Training and Development for Energy Efficiency", Brendan
    BURKE, Electricity Supply Board, Dublin, Irland

Metering and Energy Management Systems:
   "Overcoming Barriers to Energy Management in Central and East European
    Industries: Learning from the Approach Implemented by ADEME in the New
    Independent States", Christian CAROZ, ADEME-PACA, Marseille, France

Coffee Break

Technology and Know-how Transfer:
   "Introducing Energy Monitoring and Target Setting", Mr. Zdenek KOPECK,
    National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service Ltd. (NIFES), U.K.

Education and Training:
   "The Transformation of the Slovak Education System for Energy Experts",
    Zdenek MELICHAR, State Energy Inspectorate of the Slovak Republic,
    Bratislava, Slovakia, and Corinne DUCASTELLE, CETEN-APAVE International,
    Paris, France

Energy Audit:
   "Contemporary Development of the Czech Energy Policy and Possible Role
    Assignated to Energy Audits - Influence on Energy Conservation in
    Industry", Frantisek PLECHAC, State Energy Inspectorate of the Czech
    Republic, Prague, Czech Republic
   "Experience in Industrial Energy Auditing", Vladimir NOVY and Milan
    NOVY, UNIDO-CR Joint Programme, Plzen, Czech Republic

________________
=BF=BF=BF   RECEPTION   =BF=BF=BF
_____________________________________________________________
Tuesday, November 29th
_____________________________________
Panel Session: "Efficient Transportation Systems"
8:30 - 12:00
Chairperson: Gerd SAMMER, Technical University Graz

Introduction:
   "Opportunities to Improve Energy Efficiency in the Czech Transportation
    Sector", Gerd SAMMER, Technical University, Graz, Austria
   "Critical Analysis of Selected Measures with regard to their
    Implementation in the Czech Transportation Sector", Jaroslav KLOFAC,
    Prague, Czech Republic


Planning:
   "Experience with the Planning and Implementations of Transportation
    Policy Measures: The Transportation Master Plan of Cracow City", Andrzej
    RUDNICKI, Technical University, Cracow, Poland

Coffee Break

Mobility Consulting:
   "Mobility Consulting for Companies, Municipalities and Schools",
    Susanne FERRIL, FGM, Graz, Austria

Public Transportation Networks:
   "Energy Efficiency and Public Transportation Networks", Monica
    OREVICEANU, ARMEDD, Bucharest, Romania

Policy:
   "Transport Policy Measures in Hungary Towards a Sustainable Mobility",
    Peter MESZAROS, Technical University, Budapest, Hungary
______________________________________
Lunch

______________________________________
Panel Session: "Local Energy Management"
13:00  -  16:30
Chairperson: Klemens LEUTGOEB, Austrian Energy Agency (E.V.A.)

Introduction:
   "The Role of Municipalities in Supporting Energy Savings in the Czech
    Household Sector", Karl LUMMERSTORFER, Energy Consulting Institute (EBI),
    Linz, Austria

Planning:
   "Programme of Restructuring of Energy Supply in the City of Maribor",
    Alojz IVANUSIC, Electric Power Generation Development (EGS), Maribor,
    Slovenia
   "The Experiences of the Municipality of Pecs in Promoting Energy
    Efficiency", Janos SZASZ, City Hall of Pecs, Hungary


Public Lighting:
   "Rational Use of Energy in the Public Lighting System of Bielsko
    Biala", Edward WEKSEI, City Hall of Bielsko Biala, Poland

Coffee Break

District Heating:
   "The Activities of PHARE Programme for Increasing Energy Efficiency",
    Ivana RAPANTOVA, Project Management Unit of PHARE-Energy, Slovak Ministry
    of Economy, Bratislava, Slovakia

Financing:
   "Experience with the Operation of EBRD and World Bank Credit Lines for
    Reconstruction of District Heating Companies", Hanna GRUCHMAN,
    Wielkopolski Bank Kredytowy, Poznan, Poland

Education and Training:
   "Energy Consultants Training", Michael WILD, EC-Energy Centre,
    Bratislava, Slovakia

______________________________________
Conference Details

Conference languages:
Czech, English, German
Simultaneous translation will be available for these three languages.

Registration fee:       CK 200,- (for participants from Eastern European
                                  Countries):

        to be payed at the registration desk.

                        ATS 500,- (for participants from Western European
                                   Countries):

        to pay registration fee, please send bank transfer to the account


        of Energieverwertungsagentur, account number 0050-59100/00 at


        the Creditanstalt-Bankverein, Kaerntner Ring 1, A-1010 Wien,

        (bank code number 11 000).
Fee includes attendance at all sessions, conference documentation, lunche=
ons and

the reception.


How to register:
To register complete the form included and send it to:

E.V.A., Linke Wienzeile 18, A-1060 Wien

Please enclose also a proof of transfer of the registration fee together
with the registration form.

Organized by:

# Austrian Energy Agency (E.V.A. - Energieverwertungsagentur)

# Commission of the European Communities Directorate General for Energy
  (DG XVII)

Under the auspices of:

# Czech Ministry for Environment

# Czech Ministry for Industry and Trade

Under technical support of:

# VUPEK a.s., Prague

For any information concerning the conference, participants may contact
the conference secretariat:

E.V.A. - Energieverwertungsagentur
Mrs. Alice Sedmidubsky
Linke Wienzeile 18, A-1060 Vienna, Austria
Phone: +43-1-586 15 24
Fax: +43-1-586 94 88
E-Mail: 

*** REGISTRATION FORM:*********************************

To
Energieverwertungsagentur
Mrs. Alice Sedmidubsky
Linke Wienzeile 18
A - 1060  Vienna, Austria





Re:     SAVE-conference "Overcoming Barriers to Energy Efficiency"
Prague, 28 - 29 November 1994

I would like to attend the conference.
Name:

Organization:

Address:



Tel./Fax:


I pay the registration fee of ATS 500,-- by bank transfer to the account
of Energieverwertungsagentur, account number 0050-59100/00 at the
Creditanstalt-Bankverein, Kaerntner Ring 1, A-1010 Wien (bank code number
11000).


I pay the registration fee of KC 200,-- at registration desk.
I enclose a cheque, made payable to Energieverwertungsagentur.
I will take part in the reception on 28 November. Number of persons: ____
_



Date:               Signature:
+ - Malthusian Nobel prize (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

marc writes:

> A Malthusian Nobel Prize?  Not a bad idea!!!  I think
> Henry Ford should be the first...

Sir Walter Raleigh, surely?

--Greg
+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Pannon writes:

> I agree with Sandor that the white terror of 1919-20 is morally not
> equivalent with the terror of the Hungarian Soviet regime.
> The white terror was clearly a revenge taking for the former red terror
> during a time when there was no strong central authority established to
> prevent those excesses.




Aesop wrote:

Once upon a time a Wolf was lapping at a spring on a hillside,
when, looking up, what should he see but a Lamb just beginning to
drink a little lower down.  He called out to
the Lamb, "How dare you muddy the water from which I am
drinking?"

"Nay, master, nay," said Lambikin; "if the water be muddy up
there, I cannot be the cause of it, for it runs down from you to
me."

"Well, then," said the Wolf, "why did you call me bad names
this time last year?"

"That cannot be," said the Lamb; "I am only six months old."

"I don't care," snarled the Wolf; "if it was not you it was
your father;" and with that he rushed upon the poor little Lamb
and ate her all up.  But before she died she gasped out

"Any excuse will serve a tyrant."


--Greg
+ - import/export data (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

..during the first eight months of 1994,
..imports at current prices [were]...
up 35% on the first eight months of 1993.
Exports [had]...a 30% increase over the same
period of last year.  -- Alfred Reisch, RFE/RL Inc.


Can anyone tell us which categories of goods were responsible
for the increases?  I imagine consumer goods for the imports,
but I'm only guessing; I really wonder what the increase in
exports is due to.

What do the experts say?

--Greg
+ - Re: Regarding COMPENSATION COUPONS!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Imi Bokor writes:

> the extant
> that hungarians wish to lay a claim on transylvania, southern slovakia,
> the banat and ruthenia, hungary is laying a claim on jewish population as
> well.
Well not everybody can put other nationalities in refugee camps as in the
case of an unnamed middle east country.


> as for anit-semitism in hungary, it is something the jews of hungary
> frequently mention. that the non-jews are less concerned about it is
> understandable. very few slave-owners thought they were doing anything
> moral reprehensible.

Being anti-Hungarian does not make an anti antisemite.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Pannon writes:
> Forgive my ignorance, but just who was this Joe Hill to deserve the
> victimhood so seemingly unanimously on this list?

> I must have skipped the pol sci class when this was taught. ;-)

> Joe
> (too!)

Joe: He probably was not a Russian spy, there are no places named for him
in the ex communist paradises, I do not recall major demonstartions to
spare him, thus the lack of the nomenclatura's interest in him indicates
that Joe Hill was probably acting on his own whatever he was doing.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Glen Camp writes:   (parts deleted)


> Karen Silkwood who died under mysterious circumstances after blowing the
> whistle on a company which ran nuclear power plants for the U.S.
government.
> She was a local union leader and claimed the plants were not safe.
Karen Silkwood never worked for any company who ran nuclear power plants.
The U.S. government ran only one nuclear power plant that was the N reactor
at Hanford. Karen Silkwood worked for Kerr McGee which company manufactured
originally uranium fuel, which is rather innocuos and later obtained a
contract to produce plutonium fuel. The safety and other controls are very
different for the two fuels, they never managed to train employees
(including management) properly to distinguish between the two materials.
The fuels were not manufactured for power reactors. Just please separate
nuclear power bashing from the Silkwood case.

>         Though I remember the Rosenberg trial I have read arguments on
*both*
> sides that they were or were not guilty of espionage for the Soviets.
Here
> the problem for historians is that there clearly was a vast Communist
> intelligence network devoted to passing information to Moscow.  The
Canadian
> espionage cases as well as the Klaus Fuchs case clearly show this.  In
fact
> Stalin evidently knew all about "Fatboy" which Truman first told him
> about it at Yalta and the Russians only took from 1945-1945 to produce
their
> first A-Bomb and they replicated our H-Bomb even more quickly if memory
> serves.
>         So I would be grateful to anyone OL who could tell me in an
> objective and dispassionate way whether they think the Rosenberg
> execution was justified or not (P.S. No *flames* please!).

Based on what I read about the case and knowing something about the nuclear
technology involved and the consequences and amount of information that was
obtained by Russia (and China) I feel the execution was justified.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Military Service in the A-H Monarchy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Barna Bozoki ) on 18 Oct 94 inquires about military
service in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy.

An excellent source of information is the following:

        Magyarorszag Hadtortenete Ket Kotetben.
        Foszerkeszto: Liptai Ervin
        Zrinyi Katonai Kiado, 1985.

        Vol.2, pp. 23-31

In the section II. A Dualizmus Idoszakanak Vedero-Politikaja (1868-1914),
under the heading "A Honvedseg Jellemzoi" (Characteristics of the
Service") one learns that:

* Mandatory military service started at age 20 and extended to age 36

* length of active duty: first it was 12 months, later 21 months and
from 1890 24 months

* after serving his time, the soldier had to join the reserves

* authorities could exempt from service, or could shorten it. For
example, exemptions were granted to only sons, or children of unemployed
fathers or widows insofar they were the main providers of the family

* military service could be shortened to one year of those who finished
high school or were enrolled in a university

* those who provided their own uniforms, weapons and food could choose
the time and place of their service

* doctors, vets and pharmacists were required to serve one year only

* those studying for the ministry could delay their service until they
finished their theological studies; afterward, they served as chaplains
in the armed forces

* teachers had to participate only in fall maneuvers; this also applied
to landowners who had to support a family of at least five persons.....

There is also a wealth of information on equipment, uniforms,
organization, officer training etc. of both the army and the navy. The
books are illustrated, there is even a photo of a discharge paper dated
1879.

I hope that I have conveyed an idea of the wealth of detailed
information to be found in this work which is too long to be summarized
here. Enjoy.

C.K. Zoltani
+ - Anti-semitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear M. C.

You were asking in what ways anti-semitism manifests itself in Hungary. I have
lived in BUdapest most of my life, so I can only speak for Budapest, but
considering that a fifth of the Hungarian population lives there Budapest is
quite significant. So, if you ever get a chance to, walk around in different
areas of Budapest wearing a well visible Star of David on your necklace.
Compare the reactions you get with the reactions you get if you do the same
thing wearing a 3-inch-long cross! I guarantee, that you will notice the
difference! I call that anti-semitism. Since I've been in Jewish circles quite
a bit, I also know that a lot of people look down at Jews as inferior
creatures. That's anti-semitism. I'm not saying that tomorrow people will go
out in the streets and beat Jews and burn their houses, but this kind of silent
anti-semitism is a perfect basis to build on for the fascists.


                                                        Adam
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Joe Hill was *not* a Communist and
hated them since they demand a centralized state and anarchists such as
Joe Hill and Big Bill Haywood were as bitterly opposed to Lenin's totali-
tarian state as anyone could be.  They were essentially real American
radical romantics who wandered the U.S. West promoting "free speech"
fights.  While I find their views incredibly naive (if not downright silly)
I admire their courage in tackling the terrible social problems of their
day.  We could learn a little from them, I feel, with our supine techno-
cratic approach to serious moral, economic, and social problems in this
country.
        As a solution to the complex problems of Hungary and ex-East Europe
the anarchists have almost nothing to contribute.  They are as bad as the
World Bank and Jeff Sachs in terms of real policy Rx for real Hungarian
and other Central European problems.


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, JELIKO wrote:

> Joe Pannon writes:
> > Forgive my ignorance, but just who was this Joe Hill to deserve the
> > victimhood so seemingly unanimously on this list?
>
> > I must have skipped the pol sci class when this was taught. ;-)
>
> > Joe
> > (too!)
>
> Joe: He probably was not a Russian spy, there are no places named for him
> in the ex communist paradises, I do not recall major demonstartions to
> spare him, thus the lack of the nomenclatura's interest in him indicates
> that Joe Hill was probably acting on his own whatever he was doing.
>
> Regards,Jeliko.
>
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A technical knowledge of nuclear fuels is unfortunately not enough
to assess the moral and political and "grand strategy" problems of US-
Soviet relations.  It helps, but it's not decisive.  The problem is diplo-
matic as well as technical and enormously controvsersial as witness the
flap over the recent KGB attack on Oppenheimer et al.  My advisor Adam
Ulam in reviewing "Special Operations" concluded that Oppie was *not* in
any way involved but whether the Rosenbergs were is still an open question
in my mind.  They were offered life for confessing and opted to be electro-
cuted so they were clearly ideologically committed to Communism (which I
naturally despise).  But committment does not equal treason, please remember
Mr. Justice Holmes' dictum in a somewhat similar case (U.S. v. Schwimmer)
when a Hungarian pacifist woman was denied citizenship because she refused
to bear arms: "We must protect the thought that we hate."
        As to Silkwood, her factory was--as you state run by Kerr-McGee and
was alleged to have serious safety problems.  She was run off the road and
killed just before testifying to a U.S. Senate staffer about the problems
at her factory.  Maybe it was an accident and maybe not.
        P.S. I am not against nuclear power at all, I just want it to be
safe.  One Chrnobyl and one Three Mile Island is enough for me!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Re: Military Service in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Did anyone forward this over to  HABSBURG? I tried, but was unsuccessful.

RWK

On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Barna Bozoki wrote:

> Hugh Angnew and Be'la Batkay suggested to start my search about the life
> in the Dual Monarchy-s army with Istvan Deak's 1990 book entitled 'BEYOND
> NATIONALISM - A Social and Political History of the Habsburg Officers
> Corp, 1848-1918' (A real academic title!).
>
> I borrowed it from the library yesterday, and read a good portion of it by
> now. It is very good and informative. It gives most of the basic
> information, but  Prof. Elteto's observation that the 'matter is
> complicated' is an understatement. It seems that I will have to read quite
> a bit more to have a sense how the system actually worked for the common
> soldier.
>
> On the question of recruitment Deak say that the service was compulsory
> after 1868. But only one of three of my ancestors, who reached the
> military age (20 years) in that period, served in the army.  How did the
> others get out? They were tradesmen, taller than the required height of
> 155 cm, and quite healthy, lived a long life. Deak quotes numbers on the
> size of the army, but it is difficult to work out from it what percentage
> of the population was drafted.
>
> Regarding the type and length of service the Deak book is quite helpful.
> In the Joint Army (cs. e's kir.)  3 years active service, was followed by
> 7 years in reserve, and then two years in reserves with the National
> Guard. A total of 12 years.  The document I have do not separate the
> active and reserve service time. The lucky 20% who served only in the
> National Guard got away with only 2 years active service.  Looks like my
> great-grandfather was one of the unlucky one, and served in the Joint
> Army. I don't know how much of a nuisance the reserve duty was.
>
> Deak also describes briefly the life of the common solders as quite
> miserable, low pay, and poor living conditions. It is therefore no
> surprise that there was a high suicide rate in the Habsburg Army.
>
> The Bibliography of the Deak book is extensive, unfortunately most of the
> references are in German. Looks like I have to re-read The Good Solder
> Schweik and search for other literary references to learn about life in
> the Monarchy's Barracks. I would appreciate any suggesions on other
> references in Hungarian or English.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>           Barni Bozoki
>
+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sandor Lengyel writes:


>I am not excusing the White terror, but it surely was influenced by the Red
>terror, could be compared to revenge killings. Killing begots killing.
>So the White terror was partially caused by the Red terror. Without it
>it would never happened. But the Red terror was caused by ideology. Surely
>such a thing is more despicable.

I think it was Tolstoy who remarked (and I am not quoting exactly as I am
relying on my poor memory) that the difference between right wing violence
and left wing violence is like the difference between dog sh** and cat
sh**, they smell different, but it all comes to the same thing in the end.
In particular, if white terror was for revenge, was red terror not
preceeded by atrocoties as well ?  Ideologies do not rise out of nothing
suddenly, like Athena from Zeus' head.  Uncle Karl's ideas arose in
response to pretty atrocious manifestations of nineteenth century
capitalism, and they cought on, because they seemed to answer real problems
of real people.  If the ruling strata of the dual monarchy had been saints,
 and everybody had been justly treated in the half century before WW I,
none of what happened would have.  It is useless to argue about who was
worse, we need to learn from the experience, acknowledge that we are no
better then any of the actors involved, and think about what we need to do
to prevent it happening again.  Nobody owns the Carpathian Valley and the
Danube doesn't care who plies her waves.  The land grows the people or not,
the people don't make the land;  but the fighting has to stop because this
is the last time, either everyone that is around now gets along or we'll
all destroy each other.  Is it not written somewhere that the last shall be
the first and the first shall be the last and who ever would save his life
will loose it !?  Those who have eyes, see.

Tibor Benke
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

*** ORIGINATED BY  ON 01:39PM 10/19/1994 ***
        A technical knowledge of nuclear fuels is unfortunately not enough
to assess the moral and political and "grand strategy" problems of US-
Soviet relations.  It helps, but it's not decisive.  The problem is diplo-
matic as well as technical and enormously controvsersial as witness the
flap over the recent KGB attack on Oppenheimer et al.  My advisor Adam
Ulam in reviewing "Special Operations" concluded that Oppie was *not* in
any way involved but whether the Rosenbergs were is still an open question
in my mind.  They were offered life for confessing and opted to be electro-
cuted so they were clearly ideologically committed to Communism (which I
naturally despise).  But committment does not equal treason, please
remember
Mr. Justice Holmes' dictum in a somewhat similar case (U.S. v. Schwimmer)
when a Hungarian pacifist woman was denied citizenship because she refused
to bear arms: "We must protect the thought that we hate."
        As to Silkwood, her factory was--as you state run by Kerr-McGee and
was alleged to have serious safety problems.  She was run off the road and
killed just before testifying to a U.S. Senate staffer about the problems
at her factory.  Maybe it was an accident and maybe not.
        P.S. I am not against nuclear power at all, I just want it to be
safe.  One Chrnobyl and one Three Mile Island is enough for me!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

*** ANNOTATED BY JANET ON 02:35PM 10/19/1994 ***
+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well and eloquently put!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - help (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To Bela Batkay
Thank you that you are intrested in my message.
I don't know so much details of this case. I do know the priest and his
family. They are very nice people, and friends of mine. I haven't been
living from a year in Hungary. I got only the highlight informations.They
have been building this church from 3 years.
I think you can send money order or check, but unfortunately the zipcode
is missing.(I got it without this.) I can ask more details if you wish.
Thanks.
+ - 1989, 1919 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

[1989] Greg Grose writes:
> > However, there was no Western European process,
> > attitude, or event, that played a significant role...
> German, Italian, British cooperation (basing missiles, etc.) with
> Reagan's arms build-up?
While the containment process was significant in terms of making the
standard "solution" to internal problems, namely external agression,
prohibitively costly for the SU, it did not, by itself, contribute to the
internal decay of the system. For the sake of completeness it should also be
added that Western Europe was dragging its heels, and the major powers,
particularly Germany and France, were quite happy with the "peaceful
coexistence" formula. The credit for the arms buildup goes primarily to
Reagan (and perhaps to Thatcher, so we do see a bit of Western Europe here,
OK), although, as Otto von Habsburg observed in an article written at the
time, there were many in Europe to prove the truth of the old saw about
success' having a million fathers.

[1989] E1va Balogh writes:
> my second question has not been answered: was it a revolution from above?
Not as far as I can see. When the rulers react to the demands of the ruled,
this can hardly be called "from above". In the Hungarian case, the pressure
to open the borders, manifested rather strikingly in the masses of people
camping out at the garden of the West German embassy and even in neighboring
properties, can hardly be denied. Similarly, the pressure to remove
government monopolies has been steadily mounting over the years, from
private taxicabs and bakeries to stores and larger enterprises (remember
the VGMK system).

> As it is well known the Hungarian opposition was a very small one. Moreover,
> they were voices in the wilderness.
Enhanced freedom to travel and to conduct business have little to do with
the "samizdat" opposition, which was indeed quite small -- these were broad
demands which essentially the whole population was in favor of. Hungary was
ahead of the DDR (freedom of travel have been effectively granted for over
two decades, and freedom of private enterprise have been steadily extended)
but if we add freedom of thought (which of course was the primary concern of
the samizdats) these pressures operated in all Eastern European countries.
Also, as far as freedom of thought is concerned, the samizdats enjoyed quite
respectable circulation at least among the intellectuals (the group that
cares about this matter most), and were quite a bit more than "voices in the
wildernes".

> Both Poland and Czechoslovakia boasted with a much
> larger and active opposition with popular support.
Poland did (Solidarity) but Czechoslovakia didn't -- Charta was just as
isolated as the proto-SZDSZ.

> Andra1s mentioned the
> opening of the border as one of the components of the political change. But
> wasn't that a decision coming from above? What was the participation of the
> populace in the events leading up to the political changes of 1990?
See above -- I assume you'd consider mass migration to be "participation of
the populace".

[1919] Sa1ndor Lengyel writes:
> I am not excusing the White terror, but it surely was influenced by the Red
> terror, could be compared to revenge killings. Killing begots killing.
> So the White terror was partially caused by the Red terror. Without it
> it would never happened. But the Red terror was caused by ideology. Surely
> such a thing is more despicable.
It's not clear to me that revenge has a higher moral foundation. Also, it is
a significant question whether revenge should exceed the original
transgression, as it seems to have in the red vs. white case. Hungary has a
long tradition of excessive punishment (consider the reaction to the Do1zsa
uprising) and this can easily lead to a spiral of violence, as in Bosnia.

[1919] I'd like to repeat my earlier query about the Be1la Kun government:
were there members who didn't emigrate to the SU, who were they, and where
did they go?

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: help (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marianna,
Yes, please get more details about making donations to the building of the
Gypsy church in Hodasz.

Ko"sz e's u"dv.,
Be'la~r
+ - Interview with Gro1sz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ga1bor Ko3ro2si mentioned that Ka1roly Gro1sz, former party secretary of
MSZMP, in addition to his opinions on the nature of the demise of Hungary's
one-party system, mentioned other things, equally interesting. For example,
that it was Ja1nos Ka1da1r who insisted on the presence of the Soviet troops,
rather than the Soviet leadership. Below I will renumerate some of his
statements which I found interesting.

(1) "The last four years proved what I suspected all along that the kind of
socialism we practiced--in spite of all the contrary statements--could be
changed and could be reformed."

After this statement the journalist inquires that if he felt so strongly
about the future of socialism why did he give up power in spite of the fact
that he had the army and police behind him.

(2) "I often heard this accusation even within the party. I am sure you must
have heard about the resolve in certain circles that we should defend the
structure. What I said was that if they turn against us with weapons in hand
we will answer with weapons. But if our political enemies don't do that we
will not do that either. On the other hand, there were others in the party
who felt that we must defend, with arms in hand, the power structure because
that way the country, the people, can escape its confused state."

(3) During October 1989 there was the last Congress of the MSZMP and Gro1sz
is talking about those days. "A delegation came to me from the Workers' Guard
(munka1so3rse1g) and offered their life and blood (e1letu2ket e1s ve1ru2ket)
for the party organization." As a result the prime minister, Miklo1s Ne1meth,
got really worried because he was afraid of an armed uprising. Apparently the
question of arresting Gro1sz as a preventive measure was discussed and
dropped.

(4) Gro1sz claims that he was the one who began the negotiations about the
Soviet withdrawal from Hungary with Gorbachev in 1988. During this discussion
he claims that "The Soviets wanted to leave already in 1958 and remained only
because of [Ka1da1r's] request.<%t>.<%t>.<%t>.  The reason being that
[Ka1da1r] felt more secure this way. And [Ka1da1r] had written a letter to
Khrushchev, saying that if and when the time of departure comes it would be
the Hungarian side which would initiate discussions about withdrawal." After
the journalist inquires why Ka1da1r insisted on the presence of the Soviet
troops, Gro1sz says: "We talked about it a lot. He said, `my dear fellow, I
was feeling more secure this way.' As far as his person was concerned I
[Gro1sz] am certain he wasn't afraid; he was worried about the future of the
regime."

(5) There were certain things Ka1da1r didn't like to talk about. "For
example, the Imre Nagy affair." And then Gro1sz says something which
absolutely blew my mind: "I was planning my trip to the United States and I
knew that I had to say something about it. I was especially curious whether
Imre Nagy was really the agent of the KGB and whether he was responsible for
the deaths of many people." Ka1da1r refused to talk about these things. So,
Gro1sz read the transcript of the trial but [not surprisingly! ESB] didn't
find it very revealing. Therefore he decided that he would say to the
Americans that "we are not familiar enough with the Imre Nagy trial to form
an opinion, but we will study the matter further."

(6) The journalist mentions that while reading memoirs about the Nagy-Ka1da1r
relationship one comes away with the feeling that their antipathy was not
really based on politics but on personal dislikes of each other.

According to Gro1sz Ka1da1r talked about this only once. Ka1da1r was being
pressured by Ra1kosi to admit that he was the agent of the police in the
Horthy regime, but Ka1da1r refused to admit such a thing. A meeting, headed
by Imre Nagy, was to be convened about Ka1da1r's alleged political sins.
Ka1da1r apparently asked Nagy what to expect and Nagy assured him that
whatever he will say will not be damaging to him. When the actual meeting
took place, Imre Nagy suggested that Ka1da1r should be arrested as a spy.

(7) The question of opening of the Austro-Hungarian border. Gro1sz claims
that the decision was a joint decision of the military, the government, and
the party. It was Gro1sz who told the Russians and the Czechs that Hungary
will have an open border and it was accepted without much ado.

(8) Hoenecker accepted the Hungarian decision without much grumbling. Letting
the Germans go through the Austro-Hungarian border was an institutional
decision also. Ne1meth wanted to make the announcement rather badly but
Gro1sz didn't think that it was a good idea and suggested Horn, the foreign
minister, as spokesman. Gro1sz told Horn, "my dear fellow, you like public
appearances, why don't do it?"

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Anti-semitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Adam wrote:

>You were asking in what ways anti-semitism manifests itself in Hungary. I have
>lived in BUdapest most of my life, so I can only speak for Budapest, but
>considering that a fifth of the Hungarian population lives there Budapest is
>quite significant. So, if you ever get a chance to, walk around in different
>areas of Budapest wearing a well visible Star of David on your necklace.
>Compare the reactions you get with the reactions you get if you do the same
>thing wearing a 3-inch-long cross! I guarantee, that you will notice the
>.
>.
>                                                        Adam


To understand how up to date this is, can I ask how recently you lived in
Budapest?  I ask because I assume you do not live there now since your e-mail
address is a U.S. address: 
                                                 ^^^

Does anyone know if this is still the case now, or is this old information?
If so, I'm surprised, since I was reading in a Hungarian hhistory book that
before WWII, and possibley before WWI, when American Jews were trying to
stir up touble among Hungarian Jews, the Hungarian Jews responded that,
whatever you do in the case of Hungary, do it to help the whole country,
but do not cause trouble here (more or less).  I can look up the name of the
book if anyone cares - I think it is a common one everyone would know about
or own.  My impression from the few pages I read was that religous tension
was minor.

Paul
+ - Re: potluck (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

RATS!  Well, Be1la, if you hear anything please post it - I'd go.

Paul
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko writes about Joe Hill:

> He probably was not a Russian spy, there are no places named for him
> in the ex communist paradises, I do not recall major demonstartions to
> spare him, thus the lack of the nomenclatura's interest in him indicates
> that Joe Hill was probably acting on his own whatever he was doing.

Well, whatever he was, the commies sure must have taken advantage of
him.  That occured to me when somebody here mentioned (Glen?) that Paul
Robeson was singing his songs.

Well, Paul Robeson was sure well promoted in the Communist paradise
during my formative years!  I'm sure it wasn't just due to his booming
voice.

Joe
+ - tainted paprika?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am looking for help with regards to the paprika scandal..


I received a gift of paprika from Hungary and I am fearful that it is a
tainted batch..nameley it contains lead.

The vital info on the pack is as follows:
Fuszerpaprika orlemeny csemege csipos
Gyarto: Szabo Karoly Miske, Beke u.12 Tel: Miske 243
MSZ 3602 ETK 75291
OETI eng.sz:1466/81
Energiatart:1073KJ/100gr
Tiszta tomeg: 100gr
Minoseget megorzi: 9 honap
Gyartasi ido: 1994 06 10


Thanks for any help/reassurance that you can give, (please reply to me
by direct e-mail)

Sharon

+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke's beautiful prose appeals more to emotion than reason, I
submit.

Suppose a band of guys (say skinheads) attacks a group of picknickers in
a park, robs them and beats them up badly.  Some are even killed.  In
their anguish and rage, some of the friends and relatives of the victims
then go out to find the perpetrators themselves and administer a kind of
"frontier" justice to them.  Well, in the process, they get overboard
and take revenge even on some innocent people.  It's wrong, but don't
tell me that these revenge takers were no better than the original
attackers!  They would be treated more leniently even by the courts.
You all remember a couple af recent stories in the news where some
rapist or murderer was shot right in the courtroom by an aggrieved
relative of the victim.  I bet that the original cause was treated as an
extenuating circumstance when the avenging relative was sentenced.

I think there was much bitterness against Szamuelly's Lenin Boys,
especially in the country side.  I suppose that many of those bitter
people provided the vigilantes for the White Terror.  I can see how the sons
of a hanged farmer would join those vigilante armed bands to revenge
their father's death.  This was especially made easy by the chaos of
that time when the Reds were already gone, but Horthy was not yet
firmly in control.  I am not trying to excuse the lawlessness, but I don't
like the mudying of waters, either.  And that's what I see here in
several posts.  Even in Greg's, whose tale was familiar but I failed to
see its relevance.

>From those who think the Reds were also avenging something, I'd like to
know what and whom were they avenging.  Who did what to Szamuelly or
Otto Corvin that could somehow give rational to their rage of terror
in the Spring and Summer of 1919?

BTW, while at it, to my recollection Oscar Jaszi was also a member of
the Bela Kun government and he later ended up in the US.

Joe Pannon
+ - csab (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
                INGATLAN ToZSDE CSENDES A PARKETT ?

   Aki betekint az Ingatlantozsdere ures parkettet lathat, nem
villognak a szamitogepek monitorjai, es nem sorjaznak az
arfolyamok a "hires tablan". Februar kozepe ota alig hallani
valamit az ingatlankereskedelem hazai nyiltpiaci intezmenyerol.
  Megtudtuk azonban, hogy nem  szunt meg a tozsde, csak
szunetel. Ennek oka nem az ingatlanforgalom szokasos nyarvegi
- koraoszi vakaciojaban keresendo. A "leult piacon" eppen a
parketten folyo uzletmenet segitene leginkabb, mert mint minden
tozsde - sajatossagai folytan - mozgasban tartana meg a
mostanaban tul csendes piacot is, egyben szabalyozvan az arakat.
Itt lenne hat az ideje, hogy ujra zajos legyen a tozsdeterem,
mert az azert a mostanaban folytonosan emelkedo benzinarak
mellett is furcsa, hogy az europai tengerparton olcsobban
juthatunk egy sajat nyaralohoz, kis lakashoz, mint itthon.
   Jo hir, hogy a legutobbi ulesen a tozsde eldontotte, hogy uj
helyen, (hogy hol azt meg titokban tartjak), es uj technikaval
ujra indul az uzletmenet.
   Egyszeru, de jo ertekelesi lehetoseget ado rendszerben, de
europai tipusu opcioval lehet majd hazat, lakast venni es
eladni. Ennek az uzletfajtanak az a lenyege, hogy egy
ugynevezett premium, azaz opcios dij befizetesevel a vevo jogot
szerez arra, hogy egy adott tavolabbi hataridore az elore
kialkudott vetelaron megvehesse az arut (ez esetben az
ingatlant). Ha meg sem vasarolja meg, mert peldaul jobb
lehetoseget talalt, vagy az arfolyamok alacsonyabbak lettek, nem
kotelezo kifizetni a vetelarat, csupan az opcios dijat vesziti
el. Ez azonban csak az ar nehany szazaleka.
   A tozsde -terveik szerint - megorzi a korai tozsdek
jellegzetessegeit, de a nyilt kikialtasos forgalmazas mellett uj
szamitogepes technikat vezetnek be. Informacioink szerint -
mivel a hagyomanyos szemelyi szamitogepek mar erkolcsileg is
elavulnak (fonokok statusz-szimbolumma, meg titkarnok irogepeve
alacsonyodtak le - a szerk.), tobb feladatot els felhasznalot
egyidejuleg kiszolgalo UNIX-os alrenszert allitanak majd
munkaba. Ugy legyen!
   Kivanatos azonban e kulonleges piaci intezmenynek, mely meg
tozsdenek is eleg kulonos (itt ugyanis nem lehet szabvanyositani
az arut), torvenyi hattert biztositani. No nem a mostanaban
egyre tobb vihart kivalto uj egyseges tozsdetorvenyben, de
peldaul a pulyazati rendszer alternativajakant, azzal egyenrangu
jogallashoz juttatva, egy igazsagos, nyilt, nyilvanos piackent
megelozne a privatizacios visszaeleseket.

                            ORCZAN CSABA SADOR

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