Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 665
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-05-12
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Kalandozasok, was Objectivity (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Objectivity (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: On the Habsburg Monarchy/and more (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
10 The 'Stevie and Amanda' chain letter / Re: Hoax or not? (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
11 Marx meat (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
12 Kalandozasok (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
13 no faith (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Condemned to repeat it (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
15 Not so fast, Cecilia (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: no faith (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Kalandozasok (mind)  127 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: The 'Stevie and Amanda' chain letter / Re: Hoax or (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Kalandozasok (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: FW: Just a few words. (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
25 "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Not so fast, Cecilia (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: The 'Stevie and Amanda' chain letter / Re: Hoax or (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
28 Summer Reading (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: no faith (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Not so fast, Cecilia (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Not so fast, Cecilia (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Hugh Agnew
> writes:

>First of all, as soon as the virtual bar is set up, I'll stand everybody
>to a round of Kecskemeti barackpa1linka (OK, for those who insist, a
>shot of Unicum instead...)
>
>
Do we get the virtual golf course and virtual sauna or not?
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Kalandozasok, was Objectivity (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Jeliko
> writes:

>Now, we can argue whether these trips took place as zsoldosok,
mercenaries,
>segedcsapatok, faithful allies, robbing raids, defensive surgical
strikes.
>peacemaking missons or drang nach anywhere. Please keep in mind that
after
>the western countries consolidated it was not in their interest to
discuss
>in detail how the looser or the winner of their own ilk used foreign
troops
>to slaughter part of their own population or at least relieve them of
some
>of their earthly goods (christian acts, or marxist equalization of
economic
>status). Just look at the Revolutionary War and how the French are
>considered by various parties.
>The list is not complete but it should give a flavor of the have soldiers
>will travel events of bygone days.
>
>Regards,Jeliko
>
>
>
Were any of these little jaunts one of those package deals where Kathy Lee
Gifford pillaged and plundered all the way across Europe with you?
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai discusses the FORUM dilemma as it appeared in 1991 --
variously known as the Conundrum of the Heckler's Veto, or the
"What Shall We Do with the Drunken Sailor" problem:

> Part of the problem is ownership. At that time HIX was so virtual, now
> running out of this borrowed graduate student account, now out of another
> one, it was never tied to any institution in the real world. This was
> four-five years ago, but HIX is still virtual, with Hollo1si taking
> special pains not to associate it to his day job in any way, to distribute
> it among several servers that are physically hundred miles away from one
> another and institutionally unrelated -- what need does Jo1zsi have for
> an institution? He became one himself.
>
> HUNGARY is rather different: it runs out of a fully legally approved
> listserv at Georgetown U, and Hugh Agnew actually cares what kind of
> reflection it casts on that institution. To support communal standards
> some kind of enforcement is sometimes necessary, and Prof. Agnew, however
> reluctantly, will toss out an offender (or perhaps _the_ offender) time
> and again to maintain a liveable living room.

Andras is right (except for the booboo about Georgetown, which is
*hundreds* of yards away from GWU).  But there are important differences
between the 1991 FORUM fiasco and the present situation that make the
dilemma much simpler today than it was four years ago.  In essence,
I think the issue of censorship has become moot.

HIX in 1991 had a monopoly position in its own market niche.  It was the one
and only Net resource available in Hungarian.  Being banned from HIX in 1991
actually meant something.  A person subjected to such a penalty would be
cut off from all access to Hungarian speakers on the Net.  Such a ban would
have been draconian punishment, and the victim would have had a plausible
case for complaining about censorship.  Which is why Jozsi Hollosi was so
reluctant to do what most bartenders do with drunken sailors who visit their
establishment to beat up customers, barf on the jukebox, and destroy the
furniture.

The situation today is completely different.  Power on the Net is much more
diffuse.  HIX still has some unique assets, but it is far from a monopoly.
There are hundreds of Hungarian-related websites out there, with an amazing
wealth of material available on them.  Just about anyone can set one up,
with a minimum of investment.  If any of the SiliConeheads gets booted off
HIX, or HUNGARY, or HL, or whatever, no one in his right mind can claim
they have been censored in any way.  Their site is up.  Anyone who wants
to find it can get to it through HuDir or Yahoo or any of a dozen of search
engines.  When you have a pressing need to catch up on the late night
thoughts of Chairman Pellionisz, you can do so at your leisure.  Just click
your mouse button and you are there.  Or you can subscribe to SiliconeNews
if you like your news a bit on the wacky side.  There is no question of
taking any of that away from them.

The moaning and whining about censorship is part of the Doctor's game in
any case, whether he is banned or not.   But with the ubiquitous Net access
and easy publishing available on the Net today, being banned from this group
or that group is no longer the draconian punishment it once was.  I don't
see why there should be all that much soul-searching about it, especially
in cases as blatant as "Szucs" and the rest of the gang.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I admit I only briefly glimpsed through Cecilia's
probably very wise, etc. posting. She said in
one bit, that communist and nazi parties are
permitted in the US, also, that there are laws
against raising hatred. Two questions.
1. I thought the communist party was still illegal in the US.
2. Was there any successful or otherwise prosecutions
   for provoking racial hatred anywhere in the US?

Eva Durant
+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think those who provoke hatred - racial or other -
should be denied access, it is like premeditated
harming of other people, isn't it?
(Calling names could make this category, if the intent is to
make the objected person the target of hatred...)
Eva Durant
+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>First of all, as soon as the virtual bar is set up, I'll stand everybody
>>to a round of Kecskemeti barackpa1linka (OK, for those who insist, a
>>shot of Unicum instead...)
>>
>>
>Do we get the virtual golf course and virtual sauna or not?

I don't play golf, I don't like saunas but maybe we can add a work-out room,
all this sitting at the terminal causes serious weight gain. Also, I
definitely prefer the szilva to the barack.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Objectivity (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well, I thought the main object of history was
to learn from the mistakes. You are probably right,
that besides Petofi - who I seem to recall pictured
all the nations living brotherlike together, see e.g.
the last lines in "Letter To Arany Janos"
"Szent vilagszabadsag" - there weren't many who've
seen further than narrow national/class interests.

(I still remember how it starts, but - alas-
I forgot most of it,
"Meghaltal-e, vagy a kezedet gorcs bantja
Imadott Jankom, vagy feleded vegkepp, hogy letezem en is")

If someone would send me the last lines, I'd be
greatful. I know its on the internet, but it takes too long
on this 386...

(afterall, he was not just fighting for the
liberty of the hungarians, but the liberty of the world,
there's a cosmopolitan for our Big Patriots of the right...)

Anyway, the idea is to picture, what were the reason for defeat,
and what way victory could have been turned to a longterm
historical gain.  Listing the failings of local nationalism/
chauvinism doesn't help this analysis.
Pointing out to everybody what was/is wrong with it for
practical purposes, that is a job to do for all the
esteemed professors - in my fairly humble opinion.

Eva Durant
+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charlie Vamossy wrote:
>I, for one, stopped reading Forum a while ago and now find myself
>feeling a thousand times better than before.  I am a great deal less
>upset, pessimistic about everything and everyone.  I eat better, sleep
>better, why, I think that even some of my hair is starting grow again

>wishing everyone a glorious spring weekend,

Hello Charlie,
Thanks, wishing you the same...

You are right about not reading the FORUM!
I am a newcommer to SCM, but I have allready stopped reading the FORUM out
of self-preservation. In the past after reading it I would be upset and
would carry on conversations in my head with some of the correspondants. I
felt utterly helpless for not being able to shut them up. Oh well, the
beat goes on (hopefully toward a better tomorrow...)
mep

"....Ragyogo rugyon alldogal a nap,
indulni kesz, arany fejen kalap.
Fiatal felho bontja font ovet
s langyos kis esot csorgat szerteszet,
a rugy kibomlik tole es a nap
porogve hull le es tovabbszalad."

Radno'ti Miklos
1935
+ - Re: On the Habsburg Monarchy/and more (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
>         Nobody says that poverty is completely gone, but if you bother to
> make the comparison, let's say, between the industrial revolution in England
> and today there is, I venture to say, a bit of difference.
>

Now this is an understatement if there ever was one...
The trend is the unwelcome return of victorian poverty,
with the victorian so craved for "free market".
Look at the homelessness and tb figures, illiteracy, etc.
please in the UK, and the US, and the numbers for
the growth of the "underclass".  Eva, how can anyone
dismiss these insane facts, in societies that produce
so unimaginable amount of wealth??

>
>         Well, here I even partially agree with you. Marxism (not so much
> Marx) was certainly responsible for social legislations in Germany, but you
> mustn't forget that it was a revisionist marxist (social democratic) party
> which practically abandoned class struggle and struggled instead for higher
> wages, shorter hours, medical insurance and so on and so forth. I don't
> think that Marx would have been terribly happy with that party if he lived
> to see how it developed.
>
>         Eva Balogh


If you mean the keyneysian interventionist policies
introduced by the pressures of the worker's movements after
the war, you can see, that in the capitalist framework they
lead to crisis as much as the freemarket or monetarist
experiments.  There is too much burocracy and decreasing
relative amount of disposable govt. income.
I agree, they are naught to do with Marx, just a more
forsighted defence of the capitalist system.
The defeat of the widest movements of people, mass unions/parties
that seems to result in the rise of demagoguery and fascism,
which thrive on disillusionment and apathy.

Eva Durant
+ - The 'Stevie and Amanda' chain letter / Re: Hoax or not? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The post included below my signature has just shown up on Usenet and I
thought it may be instructive to those who haven't realized yet why these
requests are a bad idea for throwing around on mailing lists. The Craig
Seybold story referred to is several years old - a cancer-stricken boy
(happily cured in the meantime, by the way) asked for postcards to be sent
from all over the world; soon both his own postal mailbox and that of the
hospital were overflowing and special measures had to be taken to discard
the huge amount of responses and to get (some of) his family's normal mail
thru. That was a long time ago, but the requests is stil popping up here
and there online, and reportedly the mailings still go strong...
 As the poster quoted points out, one can't push the genie back into the
bottle once let out; these things can and do consume enormous resources
in the aggregate roaming around the Net (and usually kill the account
originating them, since the source is hit most heavily by the initiated
avalanche of volume). Please do not contribute propagating these!

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
KC2: (NAME_WITHELD+)X2 (Grubor+)*2 (Fomin+++)/3 (cjames++)*3
     Iatskovski-+ (Petersen--)/2
Personal PGP: 0x3B339A21 = AF 35 25 A2 FA 65 AC E5  48 91 AD 42 6C 84 4B 05

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: Re: Hoax or not?

In article >,  (Ala
n
 Scott) writes:
|> I've received the following e-mail from a friend, and I was wondering
|> if the return address is for real or not. I tried fingering it and
|> was denied a connection.
|>
|> I am hesitant to reply due to the possibility that it is a mail bombing
|> or else someone trolling for addresses.
|>
|> Could someone with the relevant expertise check this out for me?
|>
|> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
|> >Subject:  science fair
|> >
|> >Hi, our names are Stevie and Amanda.  We are in the 5th grade at the
|> >Phillipston Memorial school, Phillipston, Massachusetts,  USA.  We
|> >are doing a science project on the Internet.  We want to see how many
|> >responses we can get back in two weeks.  (We are only sending out 2
|> >letters.)

I got this one direct from a local mailing list because the kids' mom
was a former colleague.  It was legit, but it took them only two days
to discover that it wasn't a good idea.  As you can't possibly push the
genie back into the bottle once you've let it out, she presumably lost
the account (and was provided another one by her ISP.)  All this was
about a month ago, but if Craig Shergold is anything to go by, Stevie
and Amanda may be with us for another ten years or so.  You can always
inquire at .

Daan Sandee                                           
Burlington, MA
+ - Marx meat (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Okay, Eva D., here's a golden oldie selection from Paul Johnson's 1988
book, "Intellectuals" published by HarperPerennial here in the States (pp.
66-67). I'm picking up in the paragraph following Johnson's demolition of
Engels's "Condition of the Working Class in England":

"Marx cannot have been unaware of the weaknesses, indeed dishonesties, of
Engels's book since many of them were exposed in detail as early as 1848
by the German economist Bruno Hildebrand, in a publication with which Marx
was familiar. Moreover Marx himself compounds Engels's misrepresentations
knowingly by omitting to tell the reader of the enormous improvements
brought about by enforcement of the Factory Acts and other remedial
legislation since the book was published and which affected precisely the
type of conditions he had highlighted. In any case, Marx brought to the
use of primary and secondary written sources the same spirit of gross
carelessness, tendentious distortion and downright dishonesty which marked
Engels's work. Indeed they were often collaborators in deception, though
Marx was the more audacious forger. In one particularly flagrant case he
outreached himself. This was the so-called `Inaugural Address' to the
International Working Men's Association, founded in September 1864. With
the object of stirring the English working class from its apathy, and
anxious therefore to prove that living standards were falling, he
deliberately falsified a sentence from W.E. Gladstone's Budget speech of
1863. What Gladstone said, commenting on the increase in national wealth,
was: `I should look almost with apprehension and with pain upon this
intoxicating augmentation of wealth and power if it were my belief that it
was confined to the class who are in easy circumstances.' But, he added,
`the average condition of the British labourer, we have the happiness to
know, has improved during the last twenty years in a degree which we know
to be extraordinary, and which we may almost pronounce to be unexampled in
the history of any country and of any age.' Marx, in his address, has
Gladstone say: `This intoxicating augmentation of wealth and power is
entirely confined to classes of property.' Since what Gladstone actually
said was true, and confirmed by a mass of statistical evidence, and since
in any case he was known to be obsessed with the need to ensure that
wealth was distributed as widely as possible, it would be hard to conceive
of a more outrageous reversal of his meaning. Marx gave as his sources the
Morning Star newspaper; but the Star, along with the other newspapers and
Hansard, gives Gladstone's words correctly. Marx's misquotation was
pointed out. Nonetheless, he reproduced it in Capital, along with other
discrepencies, and when the falsification was again noticed and denounced,
he let out a huge discharge of obfuscating ink; he, Engels and later his
daughter Eleanor were involved in the row, attempting to defend the
indefensible, for twenty years. None of them would ever admit the
original, clear falsification and the result of the debate is that some
readers are left with the impression, as Marx intended, that there are two
sides to the controversy. There are not. Marx knew Gladstone never said
any such thing and the cheat was deliberate. It was not unique. Marx
similarly falsified quotations from Adam Smith."

This is a great read. I'll be happy to quote more from it at length, but I
wish to give Eva D. the chance to let out a huge discharge of obfuscating
electrons before I do.
Sam Stowe
+ - Kalandozasok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,
        I have been fascinated by the very high standard of discussion of appar
e
 ntly,
 non-secialists going on on this subject, particularly comments by Jelico, and
 Eva Balogh.
        If we want to look at reasons for those raids, let me suggest that they
 are
 somewhat different from other similar ones of the voelkerwanderung period.
The difference is that other people appear to have started their raids before
 settlement.
The Magyars on the other hand with a few inevitable exceptions in the 860s,
 began their "proper raids" after their settlment in Pannonia.
This means that there was a reason other than settlment needs, and I would
 suggest that the acquisition of manpower to do the "dirty but productive job"
 and wealth which was discovered existing in European towns, was the reason for
 their long raids.
Let us not forget that this can be proved by the long distances they covered.
There was surely no question of looking for a habitat when reaching as far
 afield as Spain.
But I really wanted to touch on the explanation, why they are depicted so
 barbarous.
        Similar raids far afield in previous centuries, and I just recall some 
o
 f the
 Gothic raids as far as central Greece in the third century A.D, where made at 
a
 time of a united empire whose written relicts were left to a literary class.
In other words there was no annalistic genre available.
By the time the Magyars had come however, the historiographical tradition withi
n
 western Europe was no longer united in the sense that it served local or
 semilocal purposes.
Hence an annalist who happened to watch the sacking of a town and the
 destruction of whatever books this might contain, not to speak of its wealth,
 was only too shocked and ready to make a note of it.
If he was a little bit better read, having read the sixth century Gothic writer
 Jordanes for example, he was aware of the cruelties of the Huns, as he was
 aware of those subsequently caused by Avars.
He was also aware of the fact that Magyars came from a similar ethnic branch an
d
 he was thus able to associate and magnify the horror they caused within wester
n
 Europe.
This horror was felt for other people earlier, (remember for example the
 Lombards and references to them as lepers), but the Magyars were unfortunate
 enough to come at a time when Germanic supremacy was a fact which would place
 any non-germanic and
non-roman groups outside the world of civilization.
As the Magyars entered the "civilized" community later on, this event had to be
 somehow justified.
This was largely done by the contrast between raids on the one hand, and King
 Stephen and Lechfeld battle on the other.
Byzantine sources, though recording raids and making a distinction between
 civilized and uncivilized peoples, have a far more sympathetic attitude toward
s
 the Magyars, whom they hoped to include in their sphere of influence.
        There is no reason to feel either superior or inferior about this affai
r
 .
>From my part I can tell you tha were it not for my sympathy and affection
 towards the Magyars, I would not have devoted my academic activities to their
 cause, and would not have a whole bunch of Greek students learning about
 medieval Hungary and its
sources, since I have no ethnic connection with Hungary whatsoever.
        Finally a small favour.
Could someone give me Engel's title and other references so that I can order th
e
 books, as I have been unable to look at it.
                                Hope to have contributed constructively,
                                Yours sincerely,
                                Dr. Panagiotis Antonopoulos
+ - no faith (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've tried to be patient, but since my screen is STILL cluttered with petty
   postings still advocating the quelling of free-speach, I have no faith in
   gaining anything more from HUNGARY LISTSERV. My only consulation is the
   few dignified defenses I have read. I will unsubscribe tonight. I would
   like to try again in a few months, but unfortunatly a few regulars have
   made this not the first place I will look for mature discussion. Besides,
   what if *I* were to slip-up and offend?

   My advice to those  who write several messages a day, every day, is to
   step out from the computer once and a while and interact with humankind.

   
+ - Re: Condemned to repeat it (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've read all the pros and cons of the style of debate over this newsgroup
and have come to the conclusion that George Santayana was correct when he
wrote, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

We have learnt nothing from the past.  Those with power wield it as they
have always done.  There will be no new rules of engagement.  With that in
mind, I must say that Karl Marx was also correct when he wrote, "History
repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."

Joe Szalai
+ - Not so fast, Cecilia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:41 AM 5/10/96 -0600, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

>I strongly suspect that Sam Stowe and Joe Szalai may have had some very
>unpleasant experiences with certain types of people,particularly females,
>that cause them to react very strongly to certain comments coming from
>certain people, but I don't believe either of them really hate females in
>general, or even people who hold certain political views.  I do want to
>politely suggest to you gentlemen, however, it is sometimes hard for me to
>maintain belief in your basic "innocence."  (Maybe I just have to read the
>e-mail more often rather than several hundred pieces all at once, so it's a
>little less overwhelming on large general impressions--a little less
>"sensory overload" needed?...) ;-)

I'm not letting you get away with this, Cecilia.  You can't accuse me of
misogyny and then go on to say that you might have sensory overload and end
your comment with a smily.  No way.  Your comments are nothing short of a
character assassination.  Shoot first and explain later, seems to be your game.

Sam can speak for himself, but when I respond to a post, the writers gender,
race, etc., etc., are irrelevant.   I've noticed on this newsgroup that most
of the men ease up on the rhetorical aggression when they respond to a
woman.  I call that sexism.  I'm not a sexist and if I think that your ass
needs a good flaming you'll get it from me.  The sooner you understand the
meaning of gender equality the better.  I don't mind reading your posts but
when you write shit, like the paragraph above, don't expect silence from me.
If you do, you'll be disappointed.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: no faith (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:05 AM 5/11/96 -0600,  wrote:

> I would
>   like to try again [to read HUNGARY] in a few months, but unfortunatly a
few regulars have
>   made this not the first place I will look for mature discussion.

        I have a couple of recommendations for more mature discussions:
first and foremost, the *Nemzet,* easily available on the web. The publisher
of *Nemzet,* a certain Uncle Joe Toth is a mature man with mature views.
Moreover, he seems to be rather talented: he learned Hungarian perfectly
within a few days. And, of course, there is always the FORUM. Extremely
mature and especially their historical discussions are invaluable. You will
surely enjoy it.


        Sincerely yours,

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:57 PM 5/10/96 EDT, you wrote:
>Dear fellow-listmembers,
>
>First of all, as soon as the virtual bar is set up, I'll stand everybody
>to a round of Kecskemeti barackpa1linka (OK, for those who insist, a
>shot of Unicum instead...)
>
Cheers to all!  Hugh, if its not too much to ask, while in the construction
stage, any possibility of making allowances for a virtual squash court and a
hot tub?
Aniko
PS:  Nice post!!
+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Tony and Celia Becker
> says:
>
>[snip].................................................. I read a book
>called _Emotional Intelligence: Why it can matter more than IQ_ by Dr.
>Daniel Goleman (formerly a Harvard professor, now associated with the "New
>York Times.")  This book is one of a group of books and articles reviewing
>the breakdown of societies all over the world, and the increase in violence,
>that often is disproportionate to numbers of people, density of population
>or anything else that we've often blamed for these things. advocates the
>irrational hatred and violence of complete anti-Semitism, anti-any ethnicity
>as a whole, etc..

A very interesting posting (and BTW Cecilia, it's great to see you back
on the list!) I've been out of circulation for a while because I'm in the
middle of an old and continuing war with the bungling and corruption of my
local administration (Lambeth Council), especially in connection with my
ailing mother and her affairs. So much for wonderful western democracy!

For Hungarians in the London UK area (at very short notice, I'm afraid:
I was only informed yesterday) there is an Anglo-Magyar get-together at
the German YMCA next to Paddington Station from 6.30pm, Saturday 11 May.
#2.50 entry fee.

A guy emailed me with the following info: I pass it on for people in the
New York area of the USA.

*BEGIN LETTER*:
I am proud to announce (and I thought you might be interested) that I have
put together a new documentary film--this one on the Jewish community of
the Carpathian Mountains. The film is called CARPATI.

Myself, the director, and the executive producer most recently did THE LAST
KLEZMER.

CARPATI focuses on Zev Godinger, a "proste" (ordinary) Jew who has a
special friendship with his Rom (Gypsy) neighbors. In 1931 the Jewish
community of the Carpathian region (then in Czechoslovakia, today Ukraine)
numbered a quarter of a million Jews. Today sixty-five years later there
are fewer than 1,500. Zev lives in Beregovo, only 50 miles from his
birthplace of Vinogradov.

He had not returned since he was deported to Auschwitz in 1944.

Now, Zev makes the journey home not only to revisit his childhood memories
but to bring a Torah to his boyhood synogogue, which has not had a Torah
for many years. Zev's experiences and unique insights are representative of
the rich Jewish culture that once thrived--and is trying to survive--in the
Carpathian Mountains.

I hope you can attend. It opens in NY's Lincoln Center at the Walter Reade
Theater on May 24 - June 2, then continues to open at theaters around the
country.  Keep your eyes out for it!

I hope you found this interesting, and thanks for your attention!
*END LETTER*

Keep up the interesting posts y'all ;-)

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Chess books? Ask for my list! ** Acorn..RISC OS * ICPUG..Commodore=64!
+ - Re: Kalandozasok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dr Antonopoulos writes:
>         If we want to look at reasons for those raids, let me suggest that
they
>  are
>  somewhat different from other similar ones of the voelkerwanderung period.
> The difference is that other people appear to have started their raids
before
>  settlement.
> The Magyars on the other hand with a few inevitable exceptions in the 860s,
>  began their "proper raids" after their settlment in Pannonia.
> This means that there was a reason other than settlment needs, and I would
>  suggest that the acquisition of manpower to do the "dirty but productive
job"

I am sorry but most of the available records indicate that there was very
limited slave trading after their arrival in Hungary. There are Arab records
(Ibn-Rustah and Gurdezi) that such activity occured before their arrival in
Hungary. "They attack the Slavs and take the captives to a port of the Rum
sea, Kerkh (probably today's Kerch and Pantikapaion of the old days) for
trade". After their residence in current Hungary, the captives of the raids
were mostly traded back locally to the nearest stronghold to be exchanged for
goods. (Ekkehard, Liutprand in Antapodosias, Johannes Diaconus, etc.,) If one
considers those early versions of the rapid reaction forces on horseback,
transporting captives for long distances was not a feasable action. In my
opinion three possibilities occured, one was left alone (numerous examples in
Ekkehard), killed, (almost all references) or taken captive and traded as
soon as possible (almost all references).

>  and wealth which was discovered existing in European towns, was the reason
for
>  their long raids.

While undoubtably wealth was a factor, again most of the European towns
survived the raids. I have stated earlier that the looting of places was an
old and by then Christian tradition, just look at Charlemagne establishing
the economic basis of his realm by collecting the Avar treasure.

> Let us not forget that this can be proved by the long distances they
covered.

There certainly was closer treasure than Spain or Provence.

> There was surely no question of looking for a habitat when reaching as far
>  afield as Spain.

While, I am sure everyone looked at each  area if it could be an Eden, but I
think that it was not on a purposeful basis, (but some may have found it).
That even the east Arab writers were aware of the raids into Arabic Spain,
indicates to me that the wars were based more on the oft ignored political
alliances than on a Spanish tourist flyer.

> But I really wanted to touch on the explanation, why they are depicted so
>  barbarous.
>         Similar raids far afield in previous centuries, and I just recall
some o
>  f the
>  Gothic raids as far as central Greece in the third century A.D, where made
at a
>  time of a united empire whose written relicts were left to a literary
class.

I agree, that "raids" was classical tax relief for those raiding and it did
not start with the Goths.
> In other words there was no annalistic genre available.

I think all of the annalistic genre  from the beginning (see Trojan wars)
covers mainly the raids and the internecine warfare.

> By the time the Magyars had come however, the historiographical tradition
within
>  western Europe was no longer united in the sense that it served local or
>  semilocal purposes.
> Hence an annalist who happened to watch the sacking of a town and the
>  destruction of whatever books this might contain, not to speak of its

Well, in my opinion these early blitzkriegs, were not very efffective against
the walled cities, thus there was probably little of the bookburning
mentality. And yes, the early western chroniclers often used the text of
previous writers such as Orosius, Jordanes, Justinius, Paulos Diakonus and
Ammianus. This occured to the extent that they were also called
in places, by the names of the earlier culprits. How much of this was because
of the local propaganda office (like the Germans being called Hun in WW I
western publicity) and how much was cribbing from extant books, we will never
know. To my knowledge, there are no eyewitness acounts. (Thank God, several
of the eyewitness acounts of even earlier histories are somewaht
exadurating.)


> Byzantine sources, though recording raids and making a distinction between
>  civilized and uncivilized peoples, have a far more sympathetic attitude
towards
>  the Magyars, whom they hoped to include in their sphere of influence.
>         There is no reason to feel either superior or inferior about this
affair

I agree that Byzantine sources are more often objective than their western
contemporaries. But this did not start with the Hungarians.

>  .
> From my part I can tell you tha were it not for my sympathy and affection
>  towards the Magyars, I would not have devoted my academic activities to
their
>  cause, and would not have a whole bunch of Greek students learning about
>  medieval Hungary and its
> sources, since I have no ethnic connection with Hungary whatsoever.

In the name of others and also for myself, I thank you for that endeavor.


>         Finally a small favour.
> Could someone give me Engel's title and other references so that I can
order the
>  books, as I have been unable to look at it.

I leave this to Eva Balogh, for this time period, I am mostly working with
the original sources and there are very few in English. But if you can read
Hungarian, let me know by direct mail and I will give you my list of
Hungarian references.
Along these lines. Do you know if Hamartolus' was translated to English?
I hate to admit it but I am slow with the original Greek.


>                                 Hope to have contributed constructively,

You did, and

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai responding to a Stowrit:

> > This recent round of reflection convinces me of one thing. When the
> > repressions born of the Age of Reason took political power in this
> > century, they usually shot the intelligentsia right off the bat. Next
time
> > around, the repressors of the Age of Irrationality won't touch the
> > thinking class because they'll realize how truly toothless it is.

> You seem to forget about our long arrows and swift horses!

There are even better and older traditions. Ibn Fadlhan writing about the
Volga Bulgars in 922 (these folks were good buddies of the Hungarians!)

" If they find that someone has exceptional intellect, then they decide that
he is worthy of being a servant of their Lord God, and then they capture him
and put a rope around his neck and hang him from a tree, where he is left
until his body disintegrates."

Who says that intellectuals were not regarded "highly"?
On the other hand maybe it was better to migrate elsewhere.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: The 'Stevie and Amanda' chain letter / Re: Hoax or (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sat, 11 May 1996, Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:

>                                                             The Craig
> Seybold story referred to is several years old - a cancer-stricken boy
> (happily cured in the meantime, by the way) asked for postcards to be sent
> from all over the world; soon both his own postal mailbox and that of the
> hospital were overflowing and special measures had to be taken to discard
> the huge amount of responses and to get (some of) his family's normal mail
> thru. That was a long time ago, but the requests is stil popping up here
> and there online, and reportedly the mailings still go strong...

Just this week, on another list, someone said that Craig has DIED about a
year ago.  I have no way to know if it is true.

I, for one, have learned my lesson the hard way.  I will certainly not
post anything that even remotely resembles a chain letter.

My apologies to all of you for that last attempt and thanks to Zoli Fekete
and Andra's Kornai for educating me; (us) and filling in the gaps in our
knowledge of the rules of Netiquette.

Another big "thank you" goes to Eva Durant who pointed out how we should
spare our readers from the unnecessary quotes and restrict them to the
*few lines* (!!) to which our answers pertain.   Should anyone need to
check the original posting, it is always available through the archives.

There are some journals that limit the size of one posting.  While I
have no intentions of proposing anything like that on a discussion forum,
it would certainly be a good idea if we would *try* to make it - let's say -
not much beyond a 4-screen length on a particular subject.  Then put the
next subject into a different letter.

When I see an 8- 10- 12- (and, Heaven forbid!) 15,000 byte post, I tend to
bypass it.  Who has time to read them???  (Who has that much time to WRITE
that much?)  Equally, when the text keeps flowing without a stop and a
demarkation line between the paragraphs, I give up.  It feels like the
poster will never end its litany - it's like the dog chasing its tail.
Dear Folks, give us a moment to breathe: leave a blank line, please.

OK; start the flaming.  I can take it.  Will not answer, as I have
absolutely no time for it. :(  Sorry!

Before you ask: how I found time to write this much, I will tell you that I
considered this very important and I made it a preference.

Your self-appointed
(but in reality a very friendly, peace-loving) "police:"  :))))
Martha
+ - Re: Kalandozasok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Dr. Antonopoulos,

        Thank you for the compliment, but I think Jeliko should be
especially congratulated because, as far as I know, he is an engineer.

>The Magyars on the other hand with a few inevitable exceptions in the 860s,
> began their "proper raids" after their settlment in Pannonia.
>This means that there was a reason other than settlment needs,

        That was my suspicion also.

>and I would
> suggest that the acquisition of manpower to do the "dirty but productive job"
> and wealth which was discovered existing in European towns, was the reason fo
r
> their long raids.

        I just read Jeliko's answer to this and he claims, based on primary
sources, that capturing of slaves was not a primary motive. Unfortunately, I
don't know enough about it to make a contribution here. However, when it
comes to the wealth of Western Europe as opposed to the East, where our
"wanderers" came from, I agree with you full heartedly. It was surely an
entirely different world to the Hungarians. And again, we are returning to
the "relative backwardness" of the eastern parts of Europe.

        If we take this as a possible explanation then Pal Engel's theory of
"raids for booty's sake and nothing more" with or without allies, makes the
most sense. By the way, In the late 1980s the staff of the Academy's
Historical Institute decided to publish a four-volume history of Hungary,
which would look at Hungarian history as part and parcel of European history
as a whole. The title of the series is: Magyarok Europaban. The first volume
was supposed to be written by Jeno Szucs, the famous Hungarian medievalist
but he died in 1988 and therefore, the first volume's author became Pal
Engel. The book I purchased is the second edition. The series has the
following volumes: (1) Pal Engel *Beilleszkede's Europa'ba, a kezdetektol
1440-ig,* (2) Ferenc Szaka'ly, *Vira'gkor e's hanyatla's, 1440-1711,* (3)
Domokos Kosa'ry, U'jja'epi'te's e's polga'rosoda's, 1711-1867,* and Ferenc
Glatz, *A modern Magyarorsza'g, 1867-to"l.* The first edition of these
volumes are all sold out but the first two volumes appeared in their second
editions lately. Apparently, the next two volumes will be republished soon.
All four volumes were published by the Ha'tte'r Lap- e's Ko:nyvkiado'.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: FW: Just a few words. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:27 PM 5/10/96 PDT, Jeliko wrote:

>While I participated in the 56 revolution, I am not expecting an
>apology from anyone over names, particularly when the play is on sematics
>and not on facts.

        During Andras Szucs's presence on this list I didn't want to comment
on his allegations about revolution versus freedom fight. Needless to say
that as usual Szucs/Pellionisz/Kiss/Toth/Nagy is simply not telling the
truth. His reference point was a discussion on HUNGARY which he himself had
introduced. At that time he accused Andras Kornai of the same crime, i.e.,
according to him, Andras denies that 1956 was freedom fight! As it turned
out, Andras did maintain that it was not a "szabadsagharc," in the Hungarian
sense of the word, that is, a war of independence. One is normally refers to
1848-49 as "forradalom es szabadsagharc," the second word denoting Hungary's
war of independence against the Austrian Empire. We eventually ascertained
that Andras was thinking in terms of pitched battles between two armies and
in this sense 1956 was not really a war of independence. The overwhelming
odds against the Hungarians pretty well excluded such an outcome.

        On the use of "szabadsagharc," I said, we normally not refer to 1956
as "szabadsagharc" in Hungarian. I gave an example of a couple of sentences
in Hungarian which would be never uttered. "Janos: Hol voltal a
szabadsagharc alatt? Peter: En nem vettem reszt a szabadsagharcban." Well,
anyone familiar with the Hungarian language would laugh these two gentlemen
out of the room. People wouldn't even know what they were talking about.
People, off the bat, wouldn't even know that they are talking about 1956.

        At that point our "Andras Szucs" went into counterattack. Completely
ignoring what I said, he went on a thorough search and found 30-40 instances
when the word "szabadsagharc," or "szabadsagharcos/ok" was mentioned. A
goodly number of them were names of associations of participants. Joe Pannon
closed the discussion by observing that in ordinary speech we don't talk
about "szabadsagharc," but more formally, especially in writing, we may do.
That's the background behind Andras Szucs's maniacal repetion of these two
words.

        And by the way, I was a participant too and I totally agree with
what you are saying below:


>To my knowledge, during the revolution in 56, nobody called us
>"szabadsagharcos" in Hungary.

>It was outside Hungary that I have first heard
>the term *freedomfighter*.

        Peter Hidas pointed out the above during the discussion.

>If *forradalmar* was good enough in 1848,
>it was good enough for me in 1956. At the same time, I do not consider the
>term *freedomfighter* revolutionary enough to upset me either.

        Amen. But I hope you realize that your name has been just added to
Dr. Pellionisz's blacklist.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:41 AM 5/10/96 -0600, you wrote:
<snip>
>I strongly suspect that Sam Stowe and Joe Szalai may have had some very
>unpleasant experiences with certain types of people,particularly females,
>that cause them to react very strongly to certain comments coming from
>certain people, but I don't believe either of them really hate females in
>general, or even people who hold certain political views.  I do want to
>politely suggest to you gentlemen, however, it is sometimes hard for me to
>maintain belief in your basic "innocence."  (Maybe I just have to read the
>e-mail more often rather than several hundred pieces all at once, so it's a
>little less overwhelming on large general impressions--a little less
>"sensory overload" needed?...) ;-)

I don't think, that anyone of us, should ever have the right to make
assumptions and strong statements on another being, when the obvious lack of
personal contact and knowledge derived from are missing.  May I suggest,
that getting to know each personally *first* might be in order.

Regards
Aniko
PS:  Thanks for the book lead!  Sounds Good!


>
+ - "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:
"By the way, although I am not anti-Semitic (it's a little hard to be with
Crohn's disease in the family...) nor really anti-English/British (as 've
mentioned before, I have an awful lot of British in the family too), I do
think we should be careful to not overreact to one's personal experiences
that might cause at least wariness or a certain caution toward one or
another but does not advocate violence or hatred.  All people, if they are
truly honest about themselves and really examine their own patterns of
thought and behavior have at one time or another generalized a group based
upon personal experiences, and possibly even interpretations of one or
another period of human history.  It's simply part of the way our brains and
emotions behave to help us discern between people we think are most helpful
or less helpful to our own individual/family/whatever survival.  Caution
based on experience does not necessarily mean prejudice or hate."

I just finished reading the latest dose of hate on the Forum and I can
assure the writer of the above lines and the rest of the readers (who may
not speak Hungarian and/or do not read the Forum) that some of those who
write there are hard-core Nazis. Two examples from the last two issues:

- one writer (posing as a history expert) is suggesting a re-evaluation of
Szalasi's role
- another one is writing about the political influence of Jews and says that
if the Jews woul not have this influence, their situation would have to be
similar to that of the gypsies in Hungary or blacks in the US; he also says
that the the economic and political influence of the Jews is a well known
fact to any sane person (for example the whole steel industry in South
America is in Jewish hands, as the Jews are so inclined to brag about it)

Maybe the first person did experience Szalasi (and liked him), I doubt that
the second one knows what he is talking about. However, I would not apply
the (much too nice) assumptions form Ms. Fabos-Becker's paragraph to them or
to their ilk. A Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Not so fast, Cecilia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:51 PM 5/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>
> I'm not a sexist and if I think that your ass
>needs a good flaming you'll get it from me.

Without the slightest desire of wanting to gain the reputation of being this
wonderful groups' Mother, I would like to echo my reply to Cecilia's post to
this comment also. Flaming, while I must admit has given me several moments
of uncontrollable laughter since I have had the good fortune of stumbling
upon you all, also carries with it the grave danger of pushing buttons that
ought never to be reached by one; who has no personal knowledge of the
mental composite of the person at the receiving end.

Personally, I'd rather challenge the opponent to a game of that virtual
squash; being proposed in our virtual faculty "club"  where one can
virtually deem that the teeny little blackball with the teeny yellow dot,
represents just about anyone's thoughts?  (Could conceivably work, since it
would also satisfy Kornai's blackball proposal)  Hint, hint Hugh...! (in
case you missed it - a plug for that court's proposal).

While we're at the virtual faculty, which I've taken upon myself to name as
"faculty club" - considering all our wonderful additions since it's
conception has clearly grown beyond a lounge; should we not have a special
name for it, other than Hungary?  Something explicitly intriguingly unique?
-  any thoughts anyone?
Regards.
Aniko
+ - Re: The 'Stevie and Amanda' chain letter / Re: Hoax or (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:57 PM 5/11/96 -0400, Martha Bihari wrote:

>There are some journals that limit the size of one posting.  While I
>have no intentions of proposing anything like that on a discussion forum,
>it would certainly be a good idea if we would *try* to make it - let's say -
>not much beyond a 4-screen length on a particular subject.  Then put the
>next subject into a different letter.

What an inspired idea, Martha!  We could make our posts even smaller if we
limited ourselves to - let's say - four letter words.  Of course, and it
goes without saying, we'd ban those nasty four letter words that make you
feel so uncomfortable.  OK?

Joe Szalai

P.S. The Pope doesn't have sex but wants to make all the rules for those who
do.  Likewise, Martha doesn't debate but wants to make all the rules for
those who do.  Both deserve to be depontificated on.
+ - Summer Reading (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

An English translation of

        Az 1956-os magyar forradalom: Reform-felkeles-szabadsagharc-
        megtorlas

has just been published under the title:

        The Hungarian Revolution of 1956,
        Reform, Revolt and Repression 1953-1963
        G. Litvan (ed), Longman, London and
        New York, 1996 (paperback)

The first chapter, by the well known writer George Schopflin on
"Hungary after the Second World War", gives a concise and well rounded
portrait of the years, event and players leading up to Hungary's fight
for freedom.

CSABA K ZOLTANI
+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Farkas, quoting Cecilia:

>Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:
>"By the way, although I am not anti-Semitic . . . I do
>think we should be careful to not overreact to one's personal experiences
>that might cause at least wariness or a certain caution toward one or
>another but does not advocate violence or hatred.

        Some people like to point out that some of us are just overreacting
when we are talking about antisemitism on the Forum. Cecilia doesn't know me
and therefore she doesn't know that, as a rule, I don't overreact. Prior to
getting on the Forum, I can assure Cecilia, I didn't use to wage a crusade,
trying to combat antisemitism. Because, to tell you the truth, I don't move
in circles where that is an issue. I never did. Cecilia should first learn
Hungarian before she passes judgment on our "overreaction." "Mr. Szucs" at
one point accused me of being an antisemite because I mentioned that I am
not Jewish. Yes, I did mention that I am not Jewish in order to give more
credence to my statements. In case, one would think that it is some
oversensitivity on my part that I consider these guys outright Nazis.

>Maybe the first person did experience Szalasi (and liked him),

        Yes, he maybe old enough.

>I doubt that
>the second one knows what he is talking about.

        He is a very mixed-up young man. By the way, he claims to be Jewish.

>However, I would not apply
>the (much too nice) assumptions form Ms. Fabos-Becker's paragraph to them or
>to their ilk. A Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi.

        Oh, yes. No question about it.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:05 PM 5/11/96 -0300, Aniko wrote, quoting Cecilia:

>>I strongly suspect that Sam Stowe and Joe Szalai may have had some very
>>unpleasant experiences with certain types of people,particularly females,

>I don't think, that anyone of us, should ever have the right to make
>assumptions and strong statements on another being, when the obvious lack of
>personal contact and knowledge derived from are missing.  May I suggest,
>that getting to know each personally *first* might be in order.

        Not only that. But both men are actually most open-minded about
women both publicly on the list and in private correspondence. This was a
very unfair statement to make. A statement based on nothing.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:47 PM 5/11/96 -0700, you wrote:
Thank you Gabor!
You have confirmed, that what I have so feared to be an everso failing
comprehension of Hungarian is indeed at a salvageable point.  (Since I got
the same message from the words also).

Aniko

>I just finished reading the latest dose of hate on the Forum and I can
>assure the writer of the above lines and the rest of the readers (who may
>not speak Hungarian and/or do not read the Forum) that some of those who
>write there are hard-core Nazis. Two examples from the last two issues:
>
>- one writer (posing as a history expert) is suggesting a re-evaluation of
>Szalasi's role
>- another one is writing about the political influence of Jews and says that
>if the Jews woul not have this influence, their situation would have to be
>similar to that of the gypsies in Hungary or blacks in the US; he also says
>that the the economic and political influence of the Jews is a well known
>fact to any sane person (for example the whole steel industry in South
>America is in Jewish hands, as the Jews are so inclined to brag about it)
>
>Maybe the first person did experience Szalasi (and liked him), I doubt that
>the second one knows what he is talking about. However, I would not apply
>the (much too nice) assumptions form Ms. Fabos-Becker's paragraph to them or
>to their ilk. A Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>
+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:41 AM 5/10/96 -0600, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

>I strongly suspect that Sam Stowe and Joe Szalai may have had some very
>unpleasant experiences with certain types of people,particularly females,
>that cause them to react very strongly to certain comments coming from
>certain people, ...

Delete what I wrote earlier.  Cecilia may be on to something.  Yes.  I
remember now...   I remember being told that the moment I was born the
midwife slapped me... and, well, ... I slapped her back.  I've been slap
happy ever since.  Do you think I need help?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: "Uncivil Warfare" in the HUNGARY group (and others) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:08 PM 5/11/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Delete what I wrote earlier.

Joe, I don't believe that your above request executably viable! (especially
in a virtual world).  Consider the zillions of bytes through many many
mailboxes? Total waste of federal funds!!  Please, reconsider?

>remember now...   I remember being told that the moment I was born the
>midwife slapped me... and, well, ... I slapped her back.  I've been slap
>happy ever since.  Do you think I need help?

Yes, I do think that you need help.  In the form of exercising that knee?
Your slap happiness?  Well, it has served to make my days off an on!  Extend
that midwife a cyberhug for me will ya?

Good night!
Aniko
+ - Re: no faith (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>At 10:05 AM 5/11/96 -0600,  wrote:
>
>>I would like to try again [to read HUNGARY] in a few months, but
>>unfortunatly a few regulars have made this not the first place I
>>will look for mature discussion.
>
>        I have a couple of recommendations for more mature discussions:
>first and foremost, the *Nemzet,* easily available on the web. The publisher
>of *Nemzet,* a certain Uncle Joe Toth is a mature man with mature views.
>Moreover, he seems to be rather talented: he learned Hungarian perfectly
>within a few days. And, of course, there is always the FORUM. Extremely
>mature and especially their historical discussions are invaluable. You will
>surely enjoy it.
>        Sincerely yours,

Dear Eva

Why do you find it necessary to be so obnoxiously patronizing to the
person unsubscribing? Isn't it enough that they're fed up (perhaps
because of the typical immaturity of such postings as yours above)?

Sincerely yours,

George Szaszvari


--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Chess books? Ask for my list! ** Acorn..RISC OS * ICPUG..Commodore=64!
+ - Re: ineffectual intellectuals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, _JELIKO
> scriveneth upon vellum:

>" If they find that someone has exceptional intellect, then they decide
that
>he is worthy of being a servant of their Lord God, and then they capture
him
>and put a rope around his neck and hang him from a tree, where he is left
>until his body disintegrates."

Ah, the first known reference to a dissertation committee.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- We used to do that to Duke students, too, if we caught 'em outside
the Durham city limits after dark.
+ - Re: Not so fast, Cecilia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>Sam can speak for himself, but when I respond to a post, the writers
gender,
>race, etc., etc., are irrelevant.   I've noticed on this newsgroup that
most
>of the men ease up on the rhetorical aggression when they respond to a
>woman.  I call that sexism.  I'm not a sexist and if I think that your
ass
>needs a good flaming you'll get it from me.  The sooner you understand
the
>meaning of gender equality the better.  I don't mind reading your posts
but
>when you write shit, like the paragraph above, don't expect silence from
me.
>If you do, you'll be disappointed.
>
>Joe Szalai

She's trying to make insinuations about our sexual orientations, Joe.
Since between the two of us we have most of the major orientations
covered, it raises interesting questions about her own. I must confess
that I missed her original sneak attack since I don't have the patience to
hack my way through that dense jungle of free association she calls posts.
As far as misogyny goes, she's missed out on some of my roasts of Doug
Hormann, Janos Zsargo, Jancsi Czifra, et. al. And until she either takes
Alexander Pope's maxim that "brevity is the soul of wit" to heart, I'm not
going to waste my time with her drivel.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- She only accused us of misogyny because she was having trouble
spelling "misanthrope."
+ - Re: Not so fast, Cecilia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:24 PM 5/11/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>She's trying to make insinuations about our sexual orientations, Joe.
>Since between the two of us we have most of the major orientations
>covered, ...

Yea.  And those two orientations are, *good* and ...*better*.  That about
covers it, no?

Joe Szalai

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