Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 931
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-03-03
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Hungarian Movie on TVO (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  73 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: An answer to the wanna-be aristocrat (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Health care. (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: FW: This and That (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Health care. (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Hungarian Movie on TVO (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Hungarian Movie on TVO (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: HVG 97/9 (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: HVG 97/9 (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: HVG 97/9 (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
15 HL-Action: write Albright (mind)  185 sor     (cikkei)
16 HL-Action: write Albright (mind)  185 sor     (cikkei)
17 Bo:be (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: farmers vs. government (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
20 FW: Re: FW: This and That (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
21 FW: Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
22 FW: Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  79 sor     (cikkei)
23 FW: Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
24 FW: Re: farmers vs. government (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: welfare state (mind)  133 sor     (cikkei)
27 welfare state (mind)  156 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: farmers vs. government (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Hungarian Movie on TVO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks for the reminder. It is a very good film, directed and written by
Istvan Szabo, who received an Oscar for his Mephisto  in 1982. I saw it
before, and I will watch it again.

Barna Bozoki

On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:

> This Friday, March 7, TVO (TV Ontario) is showing "Sweet Emma, Dear Bobe" at
> 10pm.
>
> ***"Sweet Emma, Dear Bobe" (1992, drama)  Johanna Ter Steege, Eniko Borcsak.
> Two Hungarian teachers leave the countryside to live and work in Budapest.
> (1hr.30min)
> _________________________
>
> I heard some very good reviews of this movie on the CBC when it was first
> playing in Toronto.  I didn't have a chance to see it then, but I look
> forward to seeing it on Friday.
>
> Has anyone on this newsgroup seen the movie?  Would you recommend it?
>
> Joe Szalai
>
+ - Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>At 02:56 AM 3/2/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>>Hi Sam,
>>
>>welcome back! Now, you might have time to detail who are the *South Serbs*.
>>Most probably you were unable to do so, because of your technical problems.
>>I am really looking forward to hear about this hidden nationality.
>>
>>J.Zs
>
>        Janos, if you quote, at least quote accurately. Sam didn't say
>*South Serbs.* I think he said South Slavs.

So here it is:

>=========================================================================
>Date:         Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:32:14 GMT
>Reply-To:     Hungarian Discussion List >
>Sender:       Hungarian Discussion List >
>From:         Sam Stowe >
>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>Subject:      Re: The Compromise of 1867
>
>In article >, Ferenc Novak
> writes:
>
>>I see.  And why don't you tell the people how that "civil war" came
>about?
>> Surely not because Hungarians attacked the nationalities?  Or didn't the
>>Austrians' policy of inciting them against Hungarians had something to do
>>with their attacking the Hungarian government?  Besides, any "civil war"
>>aspects of the whole 1848-49 war were minuscule compared to the main
>conflict
>>between Hungarians and Austrians (and later the Russians).  By your line
>of
>>reasoning the American War of Independence was also a "bloody civil war"
>>because some indian tribes were fighting on the side of the British.
>(Come
>>to think of it, a fair number of colonists did too, if my elementary
>school
>>teacher told me the truth.)
>
>Your elementary school teacher did tell you the truth. The American War of
>Independence was a particularly bloody civil war here in the Carolinas
>with massacres being perpetrated by both sides. Between a third and a half
>of North Carolina's pre-war population fled to New Brunswick, Nova Scotia
>and Ontario in the decade after the war. Strange how everyone outside our
>region seems to have forgotten this aspect of the war. There's an
>interesting parallel to this phenomenon in your own post, Frank. Wasn't
>there a guy named Ban Jelacic who organized the South Serbs in 1848 and
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>unceremoniously chased the Hungarian rebels out of the crownlands south of
>the Danube? And didn't the Hungarian rebels spend a lot of time and
>available manpower sending armies into Erdely during 1848-49 (including
>General Bem, I think, at some point) trying to keep the Romanian peasants
>down? That doesn't sound miniscule to me. It sounds like it might have
>drawn off enough manpower and resources to make it easier for the
>Austrians and the Russians to move in.
>Sam Stowe
>
>"The truth comes in
>a strange door."
>-- Francis Bacon

Well, well Eva, I suggest you to keep in mind the old hungarian saying,
"ha hallgattal volna bolcsebb maradtal volna".
But, if you substitute *south slavs* instead of *south serbs* into the
emphasized statement, i.e "...a guy named Ban Jelacic who organized the
South Slavs..." it still does not make sense. I am sorry but this was
not a typo.

J.Zs
+ - Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The Poles, Chechs, Slovaks, Ukranians and Russians are examples of the North Sl
avs while the Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats and Slovenians are examples of the Soth
 Slavs with the two groups being separated by the non-slav Romanians and Hungar
ians.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Eva S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Monday, 3 March 1997 3:01
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: A question to S.Stowe

At 02:56 AM 3/2/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>Hi Sam,
>
>welcome back! Now, you might have time to detail who are the *South Serbs*.
>Most probably you were unable to do so, because of your technical problems.
>I am really looking forward to hear about this hidden nationality.
>
>J.Zs

        Janos, if you quote, at least quote accurately. Sam didn't say
*South Serbs.* I think he said South Slavs.

        Eva
+ - Re: An answer to the wanna-be aristocrat (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.Stowe write:

>That would be the South Slavs, Janos. Since you spend so much time with at
>least one hand searching DejaNews, maybe you could find the post where I made
>that error.

You have got it. And for your further reference, it took me ~15-30min.
The method:

i, Send an E-mail to  with INDEX HUNGARY in the content.
   You will get a list of the available archive files.
iii, Require the appropriate archive file with an other E-mail to listserv.
     The command is 'get hungary logXXXXX' where XXXXX is the identifier of
     the required archive. For example yours was 9701C.
That's it.

Important: You should remember the approximate date of the post in question,
as the archives are in units containing Hungary issues of 1-2 weeks.

J.Zs
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:15 PM 3/2/97 GMT, Agnes Heringer wrote:
<snip>
>Of course we do!  We pay GST and PST on everything we buy, and both
>Canada Pension and private pensions are taxable incomes.  The Old
>Age Security payment, which one gets after age 65, is being clawed back
>gradually over a certain income (I believe $51,000/year - I am not there
>yet).

Agnes,

I may be wrong but I think you misunderstood the question.  The question was
whether or not we (in Ontario) pay for medicare through hidden taxes.  I
don't think we do.  We pay for it through payroll deductions.  Oh sure, we
pay GST and PST on most purchases but that tax is for all the other
government services.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: FW: This and That (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:44 PM 3/2/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

<snip>
>Then Joe Szalai wrote :
>
><<It's really difficult to have a war without an army.  Trust me.
>
>The trouble is, that in every country there is ALWAYS an army.
>The questions is which one....( it could be someone else4s one. )
>
>Miklos

So we can never demilitarize?  Why not have just a strong UN force and no
national armies?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Meaning that it's not as good as Andy would get in Canada.  It seems to me
>that you'd prefer "imposing draconic costs" on seniors.  As Andy, and I, and
>others in Canada have said before - you keep your system and we'll keep
>ours.  Not all social programmes lead to communism, you know.  Or maybe you
>don't.

God, Joe, your patriotism just sends chills up and down my spine. Now, if I had
only advocated changing the Canadian health care system, your insipid comments
might have been relevant. I'm all in favor of Canada having its system and the
U.S. having its. What I dispute is that your system somehow imputes moral
superiority.
Sam Stowe



"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
long as they can stagger to the polls."
--Will Rogers
+ - Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:10 AM 3/3/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Well, well Eva, I suggest you to keep in mind the old hungarian saying,
>"ha hallgattal volna bolcsebb maradtal volna".
>But, if you substitute *south slavs* instead of *south serbs* into the
>emphasized statement, i.e "...a guy named Ban Jelacic who organized the
>South Slavs..." it still does not make sense. I am sorry but this was
>not a typo.

        We all miswrite things at times because we are in a hurry. This is
the nature of the Internet beast--not very carefully writing and style. You
make mistakes, I make mistakes, everybody makes mistakes. But it seems to me
that people point out these mistakes only if they disagree with the writer's
views. Otherwise, they are quiet. And, by the way, I remember the saying as
"ha hallgattal volna bolcs maradtal volna," because I don't think that you
can be "wise and wiser."

        Eva
+ - Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Janos
Zsargo > writes:

>
>Well, well Eva, I suggest you to keep in mind the old hungarian saying,
>"ha hallgattal volna bolcsebb maradtal volna".
>But, if you substitute *south slavs* instead of *south serbs* into the
>emphasized statement, i.e "...a guy named Ban Jelacic who organized the
>South Slavs..." it still does not make sense. I am sorry but this was
>not a typo.
>
>J.Zs

Thank you for finding the original post and proving my point at the same time.
You'd have to be an absolute idiot not to understand what I was saying given
the context in which my mistake was made. I enjoy reading your posts, however,
because they have an almost historic quality to them. Listening to you, I can
get a feel for the unearned arrogance of the pre-war aristocracy who thought
they were better than everyone else and wound up delivering Hungary up to
absolute evil. At least Teleki had the right imp
Sam Stowe


"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
long as they can stagger to the polls."
--Will Rogers
+ - Re: Hungarian Movie on TVO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe asks about the movie "Dear Emma, Sweet Bobe."  Yes, see it, and if
you can't be there, set the VCR.  It's a very effective, powerful,
pessimistically optimistic or optimistically pessimistic movie, and
I heartily recommend it.

Might be interesting to consider it, after you've seen it, in the light
of his other diretorial work.  But see it by all means.  (It was at the
American Film Institute a couple of years ago).

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

+ - Re: Hungarian Movie on TVO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

OK, I can never remember which one is "dear" and which one "sweet," but
see the movie!

HLA
+ - Re: HVG 97/9 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subj:	Re: HVG 97/9
Date:	97-03-03 01:29:27 EST
From:	 (Laszlo Meszaros)
To:	

Tisztelt Liptak Bela Ur,

Elolvastam a HVG biralt cikket es az On valaszat is. A kritikat
jogosnak tartom (a HVG-re jellemzo, kisse cinikus stilust az adott
esetben kisse tulzasba vittek). Amit a HVG cikkebol meggondolasra
alkalmasnak tartok: a hagai birak nem szeretik a demonstraciokat.
Nyilvan ezert javasolta On is a ne'ma tuntetest es az altalanos,
csupan a birosag igazsagossagat tamogato jelszavakat, de errol a
(HVG szerint) tenyrol tajekoztatni kellene a Duna lista olvasoit,
a demonstracio esetleges resztvevoit, szervezoit.

Udvozlettel: Meszaros Laszlo (Budapestrol)






Kedves Laszlo!

Teljesen igazad van, s mindent megteszunk, hogy igy is legyen. 

Amit viszont Toth Miklos (a ICJ egyetlen magyar ugyvedje) mai fax-a
hangsulyoz, az is fontos, tehat az, hogy a Birosag elott allandoan tuntetnek
es ezert ahhoz, hogy a media felfigyeljen sokunknak kell lennunk. A nema
tuntetesek melletti masik fontos feladatunk, hogy sajtokonferenciainkon
elmondjuk azt is amit (a "kozos" beadvany kenyszerzubbonya miatt) James
Crawford, Nagy Boldizsar es Valki Laszlo az epuleten belul nem mondhat el.

Szeretettel koszont: Liptak Bela
+ - Re: HVG 97/9 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subj:	Re: HVG 97/9
Date:	97-03-03 01:29:27 EST
From:	 (Laszlo Meszaros)
To:	

Tisztelt Liptak Bela Ur,

Elolvastam a HVG biralt cikket es az On valaszat is. A kritikat
jogosnak tartom (a HVG-re jellemzo, kisse cinikus stilust az adott
esetben kisse tulzasba vittek). Amit a HVG cikkebol meggondolasra
alkalmasnak tartok: a hagai birak nem szeretik a demonstraciokat.
Nyilvan ezert javasolta On is a ne'ma tuntetest es az altalanos,
csupan a birosag igazsagossagat tamogato jelszavakat, de errol a
(HVG szerint) tenyrol tajekoztatni kellene a Duna lista olvasoit,
a demonstracio esetleges resztvevoit, szervezoit.

Udvozlettel: Meszaros Laszlo (Budapestrol)






Kedves Laszlo!

Teljesen igazad van, s mindent megteszunk, hogy igy is legyen. 

Amit viszont Toth Miklos (a ICJ egyetlen magyar ugyvedje) mai fax-a
hangsulyoz, az is fontos, tehat az, hogy a Birosag elott allandoan tuntetnek
es ezert ahhoz, hogy a media felfigyeljen sokunknak kell lennunk. A nema
tuntetesek melletti masik fontos feladatunk, hogy sajtokonferenciainkon
elmondjuk azt is amit (a "kozos" beadvany kenyszerzubbonya miatt) James
Crawford, Nagy Boldizsar es Valki Laszlo az epuleten belul nem mondhat el.

Szeretettel koszont: Liptak Bela
+ - Re: HVG 97/9 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subj:   Re: HVG 97/9
Date:   97-03-03 01:29:27 EST
From:    (Laszlo Meszaros)
To:     

Tisztelt Liptak Bela Ur,

Elolvastam a HVG biralt cikket es az On valaszat is. A kritikat
jogosnak tartom (a HVG-re jellemzo, kisse cinikus stilust az adott
esetben kisse tulzasba vittek). Amit a HVG cikkebol meggondolasra
alkalmasnak tartok: a hagai birak nem szeretik a demonstraciokat.
Nyilvan ezert javasolta On is a ne'ma tuntetest es az altalanos,
csupan a birosag igazsagossagat tamogato jelszavakat, de errol a
(HVG szerint) tenyrol tajekoztatni kellene a Duna lista olvasoit,
a demonstracio esetleges resztvevoit, szervezoit.

Udvozlettel: Meszaros Laszlo (Budapestrol)






Kedves Laszlo!

Teljesen igazad van, s mindent megteszunk, hogy igy is legyen.

Amit viszont Toth Miklos (a ICJ egyetlen magyar ugyvedje) mai fax-a
hangsulyoz, az is fontos, tehat az, hogy a Birosag elott allandoan tuntetnek
es ezert ahhoz, hogy a media felfigyeljen sokunknak kell lennunk. A nema
tuntetesek melletti masik fontos feladatunk, hogy sajtokonferenciainkon
elmondjuk azt is amit (a "kozos" beadvany kenyszerzubbonya miatt) James
Crawford, Nagy Boldizsar es Valki Laszlo az epuleten belul nem mondhat el.

Szeretettel koszont: Liptak Bela
+ - HL-Action: write Albright (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague 
started today (March 3). This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute 
between Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube 
onto Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER 
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action. Send
it to at least 5 of your friends. 
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective. 
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO: 
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>
+ - HL-Action: write Albright (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague
started today (March 3). This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute
between Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube
onto Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action. Send
it to at least 5 of your friends.
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO:
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>
+ - Bo:be (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello Everyone,

   I have seen this film some time ago on a local channel. It is excellent from
view of cinematography: black and white, soulsearching, slow-moving,
gradually engaging, with a tragic end. Definitely not for people accostumed
to Hollywood
style, happy end movies. Reminds to French modernists who have something to say
.
In this instance, what could drive even a young, pretty and educated woman to
suicide in this day and age in Hungary. It is simply depressing. A
pessimistic statement. Nothing uplifting, no hint of hope, no redemption.
Westerners may find it as a mirror to a contemporary society held behind the
iron curtain until
quite recently.
   I liked it, because it was made in Hungary, and because I could say, thank
heavens, this era has passed.

                                    Istvan L. Szabolcsy
+ - Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Sam Stowe wrote:

> Thank you for finding the original post and proving my point at the same time
.
> You'd have to be an absolute idiot not to understand what I was saying given
> the context in which my mistake was made. I enjoy reading your posts, however
,
> because they have an almost historic quality to them. Listening to you, I can
> get a feel for the unearned arrogance of the pre-war aristocracy who thought
> they were better than everyone else and wound up delivering Hungary up to
> absolute evil. At least Teleki had the right imp

Sam,

Whatever faults or shortcomings Janos has, at least he won't veer you
towards a discussion of homosexuality.  So, count your blessings.  Even
if they're small.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:34 PM 3/3/97 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>        Not Gorgy, pleeeease, Gyorgy!
>
>>>        The constant repetition of the number 1 millio HUF, 1.5 million
>>>HUF, 6000 US$, 8500 US$ urged me to draw the attention to the fact, that
>
>>        Dear Gyorgy, this is becoming tiresome.   (Yes! well spelled now)

        How appropriate that Gyorgy Kadar decided to pick on a typo just
now. Of course, it must be a cardinal sin to make a typo in that name. When
people start picking on things like that they are truly desperate.

        ESB
+ - FW: Re: FW: This and That (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:44 PM 3/2/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

<snip>
>Then Joe Szalai wrote :
>
><<It's really difficult to have a war without an army.  Trust me.
>
>The trouble is, that in every country there is ALWAYS an army.
>The questions is which one....( it could be someone else4s one. )
>
>Miklos

<So we can never demilitarize?  Why not have just a strong UN force and no
<national armies?

<Joe Szalai

Joe, my heart is honestly with you. I am afraid, it is - the really existing -
MANKIND, where the problem is. And we can4t pick another one. Thus, for
practical AND ethic reasons, we have to choose the lesser evil.

Miklos
+ - FW: Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

<At 01:10 AM 3/3/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Well, well Eva, I suggest you to keep in mind the old hungarian saying,
>"ha hallgattal volna bolcsebb maradtal volna".

The old hungargarian saying is : Si tacuisses, philosophus manuisses.

>
+ - FW: Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>At 02:56 AM 3/2/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>>Hi Sam,
>>
>>welcome back! Now, you might have time to detail who are the *South Serbs*.
>>Most probably you were unable to do so, because of your technical problems.
>>I am really looking forward to hear about this hidden nationality.
>>
>>J.Zs
>
>        Janos, if you quote, at least quote accurately.
         !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
         Well, he did, didn4t he?

         Sam didn't say *South Serbs.*
         !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

( Raising pointig fingers is always a risk. )

So here it is:

>=========================================================================
>Date:         Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:32:14 GMT
>Reply-To:     Hungarian Discussion List >
>Sender:       Hungarian Discussion List >
>From:         Sam Stowe >
>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>Subject:      Re: The Compromise of 1867
>
>In article >, Ferenc Novak
> writes:
>
>>I see.  And why don't you tell the people how that "civil war" came
>about?
>> Surely not because Hungarians attacked the nationalities?  Or didn't the
>>Austrians' policy of inciting them against Hungarians had something to do
>>with their attacking the Hungarian government?  Besides, any "civil war"
>>aspects of the whole 1848-49 war were minuscule compared to the main
>conflict
>>between Hungarians and Austrians (and later the Russians).  By your line
>of
>>reasoning the American War of Independence was also a "bloody civil war"
>>because some indian tribes were fighting on the side of the British.
>(Come
>>to think of it, a fair number of colonists did too, if my elementary
>school
>>teacher told me the truth.)
>
>Your elementary school teacher did tell you the truth. The American War of
>Independence was a particularly bloody civil war here in the Carolinas
>with massacres being perpetrated by both sides. Between a third and a half
>of North Carolina's pre-war population fled to New Brunswick, Nova Scotia
>and Ontario in the decade after the war. Strange how everyone outside our
>region seems to have forgotten this aspect of the war. There's an
>interesting parallel to this phenomenon in your own post, Frank. Wasn't
>there a guy named Ban Jelacic who organized the South Serbs in 1848 and
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>unceremoniously chased the Hungarian rebels out of the crownlands south of
>the Danube? And didn't the Hungarian rebels spend a lot of time and
>available manpower sending armies into Erdely during 1848-49 (including
>General Bem, I think, at some point) trying to keep the Romanian peasants
>down? That doesn't sound miniscule to me. It sounds like it might have
>drawn off enough manpower and resources to make it easier for the
>Austrians and the Russians to move in.
>Sam Stowe
>
>"The truth comes in
>a strange door."
>-- Francis Bacon

Well, well Eva, I suggest you to keep in mind the old hungarian saying,
"ha hallgattal volna bolcsebb maradtal volna".
But, if you substitute *south slavs* instead of *south serbs* into the
emphasized statement, i.e "...a guy named Ban Jelacic who organized the
South Slavs..." it still does not make sense. I am sorry but this was
not a typo.

J.Zs
+ - FW: Re: A question to S.Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:28 PM 3/2/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:
>In article >, "Eva S. Balogh
"
> writes:
>
>>  Janos, if you quote, at least quote accurately. Sam didn't say
>>*South Serbs.* I think he said South Slavs.
>>
>>        Eva
>
>Thanks, Eva. But even if I did misspeak (miswrite?) and used "South Serbs," ho
w
>likely is it that you would have been the only other person who understood wha
t
>I was getting at? Now, don't get me wrong -- you're smart, probably the
>smartest person on the list. But is it a case of you being all that smart or
>Janos having a thick noggin?

>From my dictionary: Yugoslav [Serbo-Croatian, jugo or jug, south, and Slav].

<This is from a 1979 dictionary (Webster's Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary,
<Dorset & Baber), at that time the existence of the Bosnians wasn't as well
<known

Of course, their existence was known, well enough for a serious dictionary.

<as it is now. Being ethnically cleansed makes peoples known.
+ - FW: Re: farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:34 PM 3/3/97 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>        Not Gorgy, pleeeease, Gyorgy!
>
>>>        The constant repetition of the number 1 millio HUF, 1.5 million
>>>HUF, 6000 US$, 8500 US$ urged me to draw the attention to the fact, that
>
>>        Dear Gyorgy, this is becoming tiresome.   (Yes! well spelled now)

<        How appropriate that Gyorgy Kadar decided to pick on a typo just
<now. Of course, it must be a cardinal sin to make a typo in that name. When
<people start picking on things like that they are truly desperate.

<        ESB

Eva,
this is becoming embarrassing ( kinos ).

Tisztelettel
MKH
+ - Re: A Nation of Thieves and Crooks? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:00 PM 3/2/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        However, just because I understand the cause I don't have to applaud
>the practice because the gainfully employed portion of society is overtaxed
>something fierce. The following statistics might help in understanding the
>situation. There are 3,571,200 people who are gainfully employed.
>1,895,000,000 people are on pension. 723,900,000 people are on disability.
>Therefore, 3,571,200 people pay for the pensions and disability payments of
>2,619,800 people. Add to these figures 451,200 people who receive
>unemployment compensation. Thus, the number of gainfully employed are
>practically the same who are not but who are receiving pensions, disability,
>or temporary unemploment benefits. In addition consider some of the
>entitlements: 1,447,000 families receive family allowance, involving
>2,350,700 children for the tune of 102,950,000 billion forints. And let's
>not forget about the 254,600 women who are on paid maternity leave (lasting
>three years). This last figure comes from 1994 and since then there are new
>rules and regulations concerning mothernity leaves.

I wasn't applauding the abuse.  However, if your figures are correct, and I
have no reason to think they're not, what is to be done?  For how long can
half the population support the other half?  And how different is the
Hungarian situation from the Western one?  Before you answer, please
consider the following quote from "The Unconscious Civilization" by John
Ralston Saul:

"In other words, he (Adam Smith! of all people) is talking about our
technocratic managerial elite.  It must exist.  But how much of it can the
industrious among us support?  The answer might be that 30 per cent to 50
per cent -- the current level of the managerial class in our society -- is
far too high;  that the management of business along with the financial and
consulting industries -- all of which are extremely expensive and
increasingly so -- are a far more important factor in keeping the economy in
depression than is any over-expansion of government services."

Of course, that 30 to 50 percent that Saul is talking about doesn't include
those on welfare, disability, unemployment insuranse, maternity leave and
others who are not active in the labour force.

Any thoughts on the above?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: welfare state (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:27 PM 3/3/97 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote, quoting me:

>BE> This is, of course, basically right, but I would like to use a bit
>BE> more exact description [...] Yes, wages were fixed low but prices
>BE> were also fixed low. This was an economic model which we normally refer to
>BE> as "centrally planned economy," where wages and prices have nothing to do
>BE> with market forces. [...]
>BE>  But to return to Magda's point: yes, the wages were low but the
>BE> whole price structure also remained low and, I guess, as long as that
>BE> system remained in force the two were in balance. Magda is also right
>BE> about the fiddling with the system from the late 1960s on, trying
>BE> to make it more effective by allowing some price fluctuation and
>BE> giving more leeway to factories concerning production quotas. This,
>BE> of course, upset the neat balance between prices and wages, yet,
>BE> overall, the purchasing power of wage earners rose through the
>BE> seventies and early eighties.
>
>Eva stops with her analysis by the early eighties.  However, the story
>does not end there. And I am afraid, there was some fiddling with the
>purchasing power of the wage earners even during the seventies and
>early eighties. Some people probably remember that the party line at
>the beginning of the seventies during the oil crisis was:  "az
>olajvalsag nem gyuruzik be a szocialista gazdasagba". (A rough
>translation: the oil crisis will have no effect on socialist economy.)
>This, of course, was not true. So IMHO the balance between wages and
>prices did not last as long as socialism lasted.

        I don't have a large library of statistical data but I will try to
compile as much information as my limited resources allow me. I have some
compilation on gross national product over time, consumption over time, and
gross capital formation over time. If we take the value of the GDP in 1960
as 100 in 1989, that is the last year of existing socialism, the DGP was
over three times of the 1960 level (317). Since then it has declined until
in 1994 it was about the same as in 1978 (in 1978: 265 and in 1994: 267).
Thus, at least the Hungarian GDP was steadily climbing during the whole
period, including the 1970s and 1980s. When it comes to consumption over
time, I will quote only consumption of the population. If we take 1960 as
100 by 1989 ot was 249. Since then it has declined somewhat (1994: 231).
Gross capital formation (again using figures from 1960) more than tripled (306)
.

>You probably remember, that allowing new mothers to stay home with
>their children was not simply a social benefit.  It had several
>practical and financial reasons.  At first, as the wages were held at
>an artificially low level, it was nearly impossible to raise children
>with only one wage earner in the family.  The family badly needed the
>income of the wife.  However, there was a hidden crisis in the
>socialist economy, the economy did not really need a large part of the
>women's workforce.  As it was officially declared that there is no
>unemployment in socialism the party had to find a way to keep women at
>home and prevent them showing up at their workplaces.  It was much
>cheaper to pay them -- less than their wages -- for staying at home:
>the state could spare a percentage of their wages and the costs of
>running kindergartens as well.  So from the point of view of the state
>it was not really a social benefit.
>
>Another reason to pay some money to the mothers was the very low level
>of childbirths in the sixties: which of course was again a backlash to
>the very strong anti-birth-control policy of the Rakosi era.  So I
>would not consider paying women for staying at home with their
>children simply a social benefit.  Maybe, a small part of wages taken
>away at the beginning of the socialist era was given back to the
>families that way.

        If the state's aim was to alter the birthrate I don't think that the
three-year maternity leave had a dramatic effect. Since I don't remember
when that piece of legislation was introduced, I will quote some figures. In
1949 per 1,000 population there were 11.4 births. In 1960: 14,7. The highest
number ever was in 1975: 18.4. By 1980 it was down to 13.9; 1981: 13.4;
1982: 12.5; 1983: 11.9; 1984: 11.8; 1985: 12.3; 1986: 12.2; 1987: 12.0;
1988: 11.9; 1989: 11.0; 1990: 12.1; 1991: 12.3; 1992: 11.8; 1993: 11.4;
1994: 11.4. (And I may add that the natural increase began to be in the
negative numbers from 1981 on. Not necessarily because of low birthrates but
because of the ever-climbing deathrates, which today is higher than it was
1949. But that's a different story.)


>BE> More and more people ended up on the disability rolls, and so on
>BE> and so forth. Most of this was financed from foreign loans. The
>BE> results of these borrowings are only too well today.
>
>I am afraid that a considerable part of the foreign loans did not go
>to the social benefits of the people but to cover the failures of
>socialist economy.  The failure in mining, in industry, in
>agriculture, in the foreign trade among the so-called socialist
>countries.  Of course, nobody knows exactly now where did the foreign
>loans go.

        But if Magda is 100% right even then indirectly pumping money into
the failing companies had a social benefit side to it. That is, if these
failing companies had to close thousands and thousands of people would have
lost their jobs. As it was there was no unemployment in the country.

>When prices started to
>grow fast, and social benefits were taken away step by step.  Of
>course there were some counter-measurements taken by the state, e.g.
>the so-called "bruttositas", "lakberhozzajarulas", "huspenz".  (I am
>afraid, neither of those words has a counterpart in the English
>language.  "Bruttositas" was a rise in wages, when income tax was
>introduced, in order that people should be able to keep some money for
>themselves after paying taxes.  "Lakberhozzajarulas" was some kind of
>bonus given to the people when rents were rising, "huspenz" was
>another bonus given to people when the price of meat went high.) All
>such bonuses were based on the recognition that wages originally did
>not contain the full costs of housing, food etc.

        I can only quote the statistics I have. The prices of goods did go
up over time. In the 1970s on the average by 3.5 percent per year. In the
1980s that trend certainly accelerated, actually starting in 1979 when the
consumer price index went up by 8.9 percent. In 1980, 9.1 percent; in 1981
4.6 percent; in 1982, 6.9 percent; in 1983, 7.3; in 1984, 8.3 percent; in
1985 in 7.0 percent. (Unfortunately, I don't have any more figures for the
rest of the 1980s.)
        I have here another piece of statistics which may be of some
interest. That is the percentage of price and income indeces: In 1975 the
price consumer price index went by 3.8 percent, while incomes went up by 6.4
percent; in 1980 prices went up by 9.2 percent while wages by 6.0 percent.
In 1981 prices went up by 4.6 percent while incomes by 6.4 percent. In 1982,
prices went up by 6.8 percent and incomes by 6.4 percent. In 1983, prices by
7.4 percent and incomes by 4.7 percent. In 1984: prices by 8.8 percent,
wages by 6.0 percent. In 1987 prices by 6.9 percent and wages by 9.7
percent; in 1986 prices by 5.4 percent and incomes by 7.4 percent.

        In brief, between 1980 and 1984 on the average prices went up almost
6.9 percent; during the same period incomes went up by 6.8 percent. Now, of
course, it is always possible that the statistics are inaccurate but the
differences between prices and wages don't seem to be all that large. It is,
of course, also possible that the population which was accustomed to rising
living standards during the 1970s found this "stagnation" hard to take and
it seemed to the population that actually their living standards are
declining when actually it was only remaining the same.

        Eva Balogh
+ - welfare state (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear HUNGARY list,

Eva Balogh > wrote in HUNGARY.0924 about the
welfare state.  She quoted my letter of 2/26/97:

ZM>I would like to call attention to a difference between Western Europe
ZM>and Hungary as far as "welfare state" is concerned. [...]
ZM> When socialism was
ZM>introduced in Hungary [...] then the state -- or more exactly, the party --
ZM>declared that it is not necessary that people get all their earnings,
ZM>because the state will take care of their needs. So wages were fixed
ZM>on a rather low level saying that the costs of health-care, pensions,
ZM>children's care, housing and so on will be covered by the state[...]

Eva replies:

BE> This is, of course, basically right, but I would like to use a bit
BE> more exact description [...] Yes, wages were fixed low but prices
BE> were also fixed low. This was an economic model which we normally refer to
BE> as "centrally planned economy," where wages and prices have nothing to do
BE> with market forces. [...]
BE>  But to return to Magda's point: yes, the wages were low but the
BE> whole price structure also remained low and, I guess, as long as that
BE> system remained in force the two were in balance. Magda is also right
BE> about the fiddling with the system from the late 1960s on, trying
BE> to make it more effective by allowing some price fluctuation and
BE> giving more leeway to factories concerning production quotas. This,
BE> of course, upset the neat balance between prices and wages, yet,
BE> overall, the purchasing power of wage earners rose through the
BE> seventies and early eighties.

Eva stops with her analysis by the early eighties.  However, the story
does not end there. And I am afraid, there was some fiddling with the
purchasing power of the wage earners even during the seventies and
early eighties. Some people probably remember that the party line at
the beginning of the seventies during the oil crisis was:  "az
olajvalsag nem gyuruzik be a szocialista gazdasagba". (A rough
translation: the oil crisis will have no effect on socialist economy.)
This, of course, was not true. So IMHO the balance between wages and
prices did not last as long as socialism lasted.

BE> So far I was talking about wages and prices. But what about the
BE> welfare system? Professor Janos Kornai called the Hungarian socialist
BE> economy "premature welfare state." As far as I can ascertain without
BE> raising taxes inordinately directly or indirectly more and more social
BE> benefits were added to the welfare package, starting with including
BE> agricultural workers into the state pension plan and ending with
BE> allowing new mothers to stay home with their children for three
BE> years with 75% of their wages.

You probably remember, that allowing new mothers to stay home with
their children was not simply a social benefit.  It had several
practical and financial reasons.  At first, as the wages were held at
an artificially low level, it was nearly impossible to raise children
with only one wage earner in the family.  The family badly needed the
income of the wife.  However, there was a hidden crisis in the
socialist economy, the economy did not really need a large part of the
women's workforce.  As it was officially declared that there is no
unemployment in socialism the party had to find a way to keep women at
home and prevent them showing up at their workplaces.  It was much
cheaper to pay them -- less than their wages -- for staying at home:
the state could spare a percentage of their wages and the costs of
running kindergartens as well.  So from the point of view of the state
it was not really a social benefit.

Another reason to pay some money to the mothers was the very low level
of childbirths in the sixties: which of course was again a backlash to
the very strong anti-birth-control policy of the Rakosi era.  So I
would not consider paying women for staying at home with their
children simply a social benefit.  Maybe, a small part of wages taken
away at the beginning of the socialist era was given back to the
families that way.

BE> More and more people ended up on the disability rolls, and so on
BE> and so forth. Most of this was financed from foreign loans. The
BE> results of these borrowings are only too well today.

I am afraid that a considerable part of the foreign loans did not go
to the social benefits of the people but to cover the failures of
socialist economy.  The failure in mining, in industry, in
agriculture, in the foreign trade among the so-called socialist
countries.  Of course, nobody knows exactly now where did the foreign
loans go.

BE>  But returning to the troubles of today.

A time interval is missing from your analysis, i.e. the time interval
starting with the second half of the eighties.  When prices started to
grow fast, and social benefits were taken away step by step.  Of
course there were some counter-measurements taken by the state, e.g.
the so-called "bruttositas", "lakberhozzajarulas", "huspenz".  (I am
afraid, neither of those words has a counterpart in the English
language.  "Bruttositas" was a rise in wages, when income tax was
introduced, in order that people should be able to keep some money for
themselves after paying taxes.  "Lakberhozzajarulas" was some kind of
bonus given to the people when rents were rising, "huspenz" was
another bonus given to people when the price of meat went high.) All
such bonuses were based on the recognition that wages originally did
not contain the full costs of housing, food etc.  However, all those
bonuses were only temporary and faded away with the years. So IMHO the
state never gave the people their real earnings what was taken away
from them by the state when wages were fixed at the beginning of the
socialist era.

ZM>Summarizing, IMHO the Hungarian situation is different from that of
ZM>Western Europe in that respect that in Hungary people never received
ZM>their real earnings. But now the state is taking from the people
ZM>something they never really received.

BE> But Magda, the trouble is that given the artificial situation we
BE> don't know what that "real earnings" actually were!! In a world
BE> where prices and wages are fixed we have no way of attaching a real,
BE> meaningful price to labor or products for that matter.

Sure, we don't know the exact numbers, I agree.  But the officials who
kept the wages -- and for some time the prices, too -- artificially
low for decades, probably had an idea about that...  You are right, we
have to wait for a thorough analysis of the finances of Hungary since
1945, wages, prices, etc. Hopefully somebody some time will do that.
But the fact remains a fact even if we don't know the exact numbers.

In your addendum you say:

BE> When discussing wages which by all accounts are very low I forgot
BE> to mention the possibility of paying much higher wages to the
BE> wage earners. Can you imagine what would happen to inflation? At the
BE> beginning of last year as it was the inflation rate was around
BE> 30 percent. They managed to push down that rate to 18 percent or so
BE> by the end of the year by reducing real wages by about four percent.
BE> Can you imagine what would happen if, let's say, wages were suddenly
BE> doubled. Hungary could easily end up with an inflation
BE> rate of 60 percent a year.

I do not think that I suggested wages should be suddenly doubled.  I
consider sudden measures destabilizing and dangerous.  The only thing
I said was -- and I repeat that -- that the welfare system of Hungary
cannot be considered on the same base as that of Western Europe and
very probably should not be treated by the same methods because the
cause and development of the situation is quite different.  It needs a
thorough analysis. Unfortunately it seems that the present age is not
the age of analysis.

One closing remark: As far as inflation rate is concerned: remember
that Hungary reached the inflation rate of 18% already in 1993-94.
And I don't know what the Statistical Yearbook says now but I am
afraid that reduction in real wages was much more than 4% last year.

Best regards

 Magda Zimanyi

 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-395-9242
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-395-9151
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: farmers vs. government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lectoris Salutem!

        I was cited, sorry for returning after the week-end, but one has
to respond for such a citation:
>At 01:00 PM 2/28/97 +0100, Gorgy Kadar wrote:

        Not Gorgy, pleeeease, Gyorgy!

>>        The constant repetition of the number 1 millio HUF, 1.5 million
>>HUF, 6000 US$, 8500 US$ urged me to draw the attention to the fact, that

>        Dear Gyorgy, this is becoming tiresome.   (Yes! well spelled now)

        Dear Madam, not only, this is becoming comic!

>The trouble with you is that you are an ideologue and a political
>partisan who simply incapable of looking at similar occurrences under the
>same light.
>I bet you thought that the cab drivers were
>absolute no-goods, who cheated their customers, whose activities were
part
>of the black economy, and who were bent on bringing down the first
>democratically elected government of Hungary. In brief, you didn't feel
that
>their cause was just. I agree with you, their cause was most likely
>unjust.               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        Madam, I am glad that you can agree with yourself.
In this particular case I have not mentioned at all any political item, I
haven't even written anything wrong about the government (instead, I
mentioned twice their official number as for the net/gross income ratio)
And that's above all, in this particular case I haven't mentioned at all
the taxicab drivers, and it would be difficult to join such a mentioning
with my name, since in October 1990 I was not in Hungary and without
personal experiences I rarely get into disputes.

>Just wait, until we hear from Gyorgy Kadar on taxi drivers versus
>farmers!!

        Because of the above mentioned reason you certainly should wait
fairly long! ;-)

        My point was made only against an unfair picture.
(>You don't have to repeat yourself fifty million times.
        Only twice, Madam, but it seemed necessary. ;-))
I do not want to avoid fair taxation, or to support the avoidance of it by
anyone else (I had to repeat it again).

        Istenvelunk...                  Kadargyorgy

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS