Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 781
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-09-06
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  101 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Funar (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor, (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  121 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
13 APOLOGIES (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
14 Ghymes Ensemble in New York Sept 7 (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: "Professional Politicians" (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Church: Bible stuff.... (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Funar - the cold truth (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor, (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Heidegger and Hungary Part 3 (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Funar - Correction (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor, (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  161 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: To agent "Lup". (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

> At 08:56 AM 9/4/96 +1000, George Antony wrote in connection with the
> cancellation of the HungarHotels deal:
> >I do not share your furore over this.  Legally there was nothing wrong with
> >the Horn decision: he pulled back at the stage of a letter of intent, not
> >at the stage of a valid contract.
>
>         Maybe in the strict sense of the letter of the law there was nothing
> "legally" wrong but often it doesn't have to be and yet the general
> impression is sleaze and untrustworthiness. That was the case with the
> HungarHotels, in my opinion.

The commercial world is not the meeting place of the Knights of the Holy
Grail and much worse practices are commonplace.  The strict letter of the
law is the best guiding light.  Businesses tend to sue for much less than
clear breaches of contract, especially in the US. The fact that the US
company did not sue at all is the best proof that by general business
standards there was nothing exceptional about the cancellation.  Whinges
for public-relations purposes can be taken with more than a pinch of salt.

> >On the other hand, it is to let
> >foreign investors know that the government intends to charge realistic
> >commercial values for assets and investors cannot expect to buy up the
> >asset base of the country on the cheap.

>         I'm afraid there isn't a heck of a lot of goodies left which are
> very desirable. Most of the plumbs are gone.

Which, to me at least, does not mean that the Hungarian government should
care any less about what is left.

>         Obviously George thinks more highly of Horn as a politician than I
> am. I just started reading Horn's autobiography published in 1991. Once
> finished with it I will be glad to share my impressions of the book with the
> list. But even without ever reading his autobiography I think that as a
> prime minister he is pretty much of a failure.

It is all relative, isn't it ?  He at least stood up for a very painful,
unpopular but absoutely essential economic austerity programme that none
of his predecessors were game enough to do.  This in itself is worth a
few Brownie points as far as I am concerned.  Sure, his track record is
far from perfect, the biggest cock-up I know about being the Danube dam
issue (quite apart from his early activities that I consider irrelevant
in a debate about his current performance as a politician).  The best of
a bad lot, if you like, whether you like him or not.

> >For starters,
> >if there had been professional politicians in the Antall government, Horn
> >would not be in power now.  Just think about it.
>
>         I can't agree here either. (1) The Antall government wasn't defeated
> because it wasn't comprised of professional politicians but because the
> economic situation of the country deteriorated (mind you, inevitably) during
> its time in office.

I strongly disagree.  There was nothing inevitable about the deterioration, or
the very least its extent.  The fact that the conservative coalition left
Hungary in a relatively worse economic position among the Eastern-European
competitors than when it took over is an indictment of its lack of political
professionalism or competence.  With the exception of a few (e.g., Kupa)
they were of the muddle-on school economically, slightly better than their
Ukrainian or Bulgarian counterparts.  They have squandered the early advantage
that Hungary had in economic transformation and, to me, this is unforgivable.

They have also given the right of the political palette a bad name which
will continue to compromise the balanced political development of Hungary
for some time and give the Socialists an undeserved advantage.

(With this I am not saying that they acted in a fashion
> which was politically savy.) (2) There were only one kind of "professional
> politicians" in Hungary--as well as elsewhere in Eastern Europe--the
> communists. Surely, if the same "professional politicians" continued after
> 1990 one didn't even need free elections. Thus we could have had Horn not in
> 1994 but in 1990.
>
>         The problem with Eastern Europe's "professional politicians" is that
> a successful politician in a one-party system and a command economy was a
> very different animal from a successful politician in a democracy under
> market forces. And this is where these guys fail, I think.

You fundamentally misunderstand what I mean by 'professional'.  What I mean
is not somebody who makes his livelihood entirely from politics but someone
who acts in an efficient, competent manner.

It is really simplistic that you should tar all ex-communists with the
same brush.  My impression is that some of them, primarily the opportunist,
turn-coat, chameleon-types, have adapted very quickly to the changed circum-
stances.  Just witness the first round of privatization where many big-wig
communists transformed themselves into very successful capitalists.  As for
democracy, it was the collective decision of the MSzMP in the late 1980s to
transform themselves into a democratic party, in order to be able to cling
to power.  They had a good understanding of the rules, constraints and
limitations of the democratic system and went out on a limb convinced that
they can hack it in that environment - and they were right.

Besides, not all of Hungary's professional politicians in your sense of the
word come from the old nomenclature: just think of Demszky among others who,
incidentally, fits into both definitions of professionalism.

George Antony
+ - Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Roman Kanala ) wrote:
: But, Canada is not part of US and the propagation of fascism, national
: and racial intolerance and spreading hatred is forbidden by the law.
:
Look who's talking!  I wonder why you haven't been caught yet.


: Mr. Frajkor has committed a number of illegal acts and it's correct to
: bring his activities to the attention of whom it may concern.
:
Look who's talking! I think it's time your activities on the 'Net have
been examined.


: That Mr. Frajkor is continuing his lies (he has been frequently caught
: when knowingly lying and continues doing it again), that he is knowingly
: spreading them, that he is spin-doctoring the history, all that are
: expressions of his intellectual, scientific and moral failures that may be
: of interest to the Ethical Commission at his University. However, acts
: against the Law are reprehensible and can be taken to a court.
:
The above applies to Mr. Roman Kanala and his Magyar K.K.K. (Kanala
Kleansing Klan) dedicated to assimilation and abuse of neighbouring
nations.


: number of mistakes. I have spent a couple of days reading the old
: stuff and will document some of his lapsus.
:
Shove it up yours.  I don't need commercials for your next posting.



Do you, Roman Kanala, re-read your postings before you send them off?
Can you objectively say there is no hatered in them?

First, clean up your own house!

Mr. Roman Kanala and his followers (Magyar K.K.K.) are continuously
spreading hate and anti-Slovakian and anti-Romenian propaganda on
this newsgroup.  They are NOT speaking for the majority of Magyars.
Their opinion is NOT the popular opinion in Hungary.  Please rememebr
that when meeting your next Magyar friend.  NOT ALL MAGAYRS ARE
MEMBERS OF K.K.K. (Kanala Kleansing Klan).
+ - Re: Funar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  writes:

>If Hungarians are to coexist in Romania they shall try to make an
>effort of blending in and educate the next generation  the
>Romanian spirit of love and respect to 2000 years of latinity.
>They should be asamed of degrading and subjygating a pace living
neigbour.
>The Hungarian church shall get out of politics.
>
>
>A. Albu

How about if Hungarians and Romanians are to co-exist peacefully in
Transylvania-Erdely, they shall educate the next generation to ignore the
hype from the ultranationalists in Budapest and Bucharest and respect
1,000 years or so of living next to one another in a fair approximation of
harmony? Ultranationalists on both sides should be ashamed of exploiting
linguistic and religious differences to destroy a unique fusion of
cultures. There are plenty of other places in the region where ethnic
groups can and do feud and fight. Transylvania-Erdely ought to at least be
the one place where that murderous dynamic is held in abeyance.

I would suggest, as well, that since Transylvania-Erdely is currently
incorporated into the Romanian political entity that the Romanian national
government has a primary responsibility and obligation to respect the
rights and recognize the existence of all the inhabitants of that region,
regardless of their ethnic origin. This witless chest-beating calling for
the assimilation of minorities doesn't sound any better coming out of your
mouth in 1996 than it did a century ago when the shoe was on the other
foot and it was Hungarian politicians pushing for Magyarization of ethnic
minorities."Pace loving neigbor" my left foot.
Sam Stowe

"Push the button, Frank."
-- Dr. Clayton Forrester
+ - Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor, (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, George Antony wrote:
> Could you guys please cease using the HUNGARY list for this tussle.
 They are continuing crossposted threads on Usenet (most posters are
likely reading bit.listserv.slovak-l only and replying there, possibly
without being aware of sending to the other groups like b.l.h) - these are
unlikely to die out for months ;-(...

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:55 PM 9/4/96 -0700, Charlie Vamossy wrote in connection with the
HungarHotels deal:

>PM Horn is far more cunning than that and I don't buy the innocent
>bystander story at all.  More likely, IMHO, he knowingly allowed the
>negotiations to proceed, misleading the potential buyers in the
>process, in order to create a a "situation" in which he could then
>appear as the last minute white knight who saves the nation from a
>disastrous bad deal, picking up lots of domestic popularity points.

        I have another scenario for your consideration. If I recall
properly, the man who whispered into Mr. Horn's ear was then minister of
industry, Laszlo Pal, a man of leftist leanings. Mr. Pal (Soviet educated
with a Russian wife) had some crazy idea about reviving some state
industries. For example, he was sure in May-June 1994 that the steelmill at
Diosgyor was not entirely dead. It can be resurrected! Also, if I recall, he
threw a lot of good money after bad in order to "revive" the mill, which is
still in limbo. Eventually, Mr. Pal was removed somewhat in disgrace by Mr.
Horn. But, never fear, a few months later he was compensated for his loss:
he became the the chief of MOL, the big Hungarian energy company which has a
monopoly.

        Well, with this background, what about the following scenario: Mr.
Horn fluctuates between his natural inclination, i.e., the left and the
voices of reason on the other side which whisper different things into his
ears. So, one day he leans this way and the next day he leans that way.
Right now, we are leaning leftward, by the way. I especially like his
references to a tough stand against his coalition partners. He emphasizes
that in the past it was always the MSZP which gave in but from here on it
will not be so. We will see that Ivan Peto will say to that. In any case, I
have the feeling that Horn wouldn't be exactly heartbroken if SZDSZ left the
coalition.


        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:36 PM 9/4/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>I also agree that most of the good cherries are already picked (plums?)
>they have managed to steal the country blind...and who pays???

        I am glad that you agree with me about the HungarHotels case. I,
however, cannot agree with you here. Hungary badly needed and still needs
foreign investment. The more the merrier. Hungary needs capital and the
Hungarian capitalists don't have the necessary capital to invest in
revitalizing the economy. Foreign companies have already invested a great
deal of money in the country which helps to insure the population's future
well being. Most of the Hungarian exports (something like 75%) comes from
the multinational corporation's Hungarian subsidiaries.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:18 AM 9/5/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>>         I'm afraid there isn't a heck of a lot of goodies left which are
>> very desirable. Most of the plumbs are gone.
>
>Which, to me at least, does not mean that the Hungarian government should
>care any less about what is left.

        No, but you have to admit that not much money can be gotten for some
run-down, semi-bankrupt, or completely bankrupt company, where not even the
building is adequate, never mind the machinery.

        Then George talking about Horn as prime minister:

>He at least stood up for a very painful,
>unpopular but absoutely essential economic austerity programme that none
>of his predecessors were game enough to do.  This in itself is worth a
>few Brownie points as far as I am concerned.  Sure, his track record is
>far from perfect, the biggest cock-up I know about being the Danube dam
>issue (quite apart from his early activities that I consider irrelevant
>in a debate about his current performance as a politician).  The best of
>a bad lot, if you like, whether you like him or not.

        Surely, you have a higher opinion of this government than I, or even
the majority of the Hungarian voters. I believe the popularity of this
government dropped exactly as much as the popularity of the Antall
government during exactly the same period. Admittedly, I have been following
the record of this government more carefully than I did that of the Antall
government but this government strikes me as an incompetent lot. This is
especially annoying because of the repeated references to the "expertise" of
the MSZP members as opposed to their opponents' bungling unprofessionalism.
And then it turns out that the cabinet members' expertise is questionable.

        The initial trouble was that Horn put together a cabinet from all
shades of political opinion within his own party and thus he didn't really
have a team. Since then personnel changes have been very frequent. Only
recently the second minister of industry hit the dust and I am waiting when
the minister of welfare will be leaving in total disgust. Horn acts
impulsively and announces fairly momentous political decisions without
discussing the matter with anyone before hand. For eight solid months
nothing was happening on the economic front until the decision no longer
could be postponed: the country would have gone bankrupt. So, he was acting
under the gun. Then came a whole bunch of quick, not too well thought out,
decisions concerning the welfare state, half of which turned out to be
unconstitutional. Decisions are announced about this or that and two months
later they retreat from the original position.

        And finally, inflation is still high (nowhere close to 20%),
economic growth slowed, GDP is lower than last year, and so on and so forth.
Should I continue?

        George disagrees with me concerning the inevitability of economic
dislocations after 1990:

>I strongly disagree.  There was nothing inevitable about the deterioration, or
>the very least its extent.  The fact that the conservative coalition left
>Hungary in a relatively worse economic position among the Eastern-European
>competitors than when it took over is an indictment of its lack of political
>professionalism or competence.  With the exception of a few (e.g., Kupa)
>they were of the muddle-on school economically, slightly better than their
>Ukrainian or Bulgarian counterparts.  They have squandered the early advantage
>that Hungary had in economic transformation and, to me, this is unforgivable.

        I myself wouldn't have acted the way the Antall government did in
1990. As, by now, everybody knows I am a strong believer in the "shock
therapy"--in the short run it might be painful but in the long run it is
beneficial. The Antall government's economic expert, Bela Kadar, strongly
opposed such a move and opted for a slow change-over, claiming Hungary's
unique economic situation: kind of mixed economy already in place. However,
I can't imagine that the MSZP if it had been voted into office in 1990 would
have been the party to dismantle quickly the edifice of "existing
socialism." Perhaps the SZDSZ would have done it then, I don't know. In
brief, I don't think that any Hungarian government would have had the will
or the desire to act decisively in economic terms.

        As for the economic dislocations, I am surprised that you don't
think that they were inevitable. The whole eastern market collapsing for
which Hungarian industry was geared!!? Surely, these factories couldn't
compete with western firms in the western markets. Factories would have had
to close, people would have had lost their jobs, regardless which party was
in power.

>They have also given the right of the political palette a bad name which
>will continue to compromise the balanced political development of Hungary
>for some time and give the Socialists an undeserved advantage.

        The greatest sin of the MDF and other coalition parties was, as far
as I can see it, the shifting politics from "conservative versus liberal" to
"national versus cosmpolitan/international" (nemzeti versus nemzetietlen,
hazafias versus hazafiatlan) realm. But the question is: was this ridiculous
and dangerous ideology was invented by the politicians or the politicians
simply responded to public sentiment. This is certainly a topic we could
discuss.

>It is really simplistic that you should tar all ex-communists with the
>same brush.

        If I gave this impression that is not what I meant. Of course, they
were the orthodox kind and they mostly disappeared from the political scene.
Most of them were older and they simply retired. The Hungarian Who's Who
doesn't even list them anymore. The reform wing was certainly ready to
embrace democracy in order to survive but old reflexes die hard. Most of
these guys managed to climb the totem pole through the KISZ or as party
apparatchiks. And the talent which propelled them in the old nomenclature
was very different from what a democratic politician needs. And you can see
often enough that the reflexes are the old reflexes and democracy is
something they know is necessary and a good thing but they have to think
about it. It doesn't come naturally to them. In fact, what comes naturally
is undemocratic utterances.

>Besides, not all of Hungary's professional politicians in your sense of the
>word come from the old nomenclature: just think of Demszky among others who,
>incidentally, fits into both definitions of professionalism.

        OK. So, what you mean is a talent for politics. Yes, Demszky
obviously has talent for it but he wasn't a professional politician. Neither
was Peto or Orban. But, I am afraid, most of the MSZP members of the
government were professional politicians in the sense of party or KISZ
functionaries.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >  (Kristina
Szurek) writes:
>From:  (Kristina Szurek)
>Subject: Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks
>Date: 4 Sep 1996 12:49:53 GMT

>Roman Kanala ) wrote:
>: But, Canada is not part of US and the propagation of fascism, national
>: and racial intolerance and spreading hatred is forbidden by the law.
>:
>Look who's talking!  I wonder why you haven't been caught yet.


>: Mr. Frajkor has committed a number of illegal acts and it's correct to
>: bring his activities to the attention of whom it may concern.
>:
>Look who's talking! I think it's time your activities on the 'Net have
>been examined.

>
>: That Mr. Frajkor is continuing his lies (he has been frequently caught
>: when knowingly lying and continues doing it again), that he is knowingly
>: spreading them, that he is spin-doctoring the history, all that are
>: expressions of his intellectual, scientific and moral failures that may be
>: of interest to the Ethical Commission at his University. However, acts
>: against the Law are reprehensible and can be taken to a court.
>:
>The above applies to Mr. Roman Kanala and his Magyar K.K.K. (Kanala
>Kleansing Klan) dedicated to assimilation and abuse of neighbouring
>nations.

>
>: number of mistakes. I have spent a couple of days reading the old
>: stuff and will document some of his lapsus.
>:
>Shove it up yours.  I don't need commercials for your next posting.



>Do you, Roman Kanala, re-read your postings before you send them off?
>Can you objectively say there is no hatered in them?

>First, clean up your own house!

>Mr. Roman Kanala and his followers (Magyar K.K.K.) are continuously
>spreading hate and anti-Slovakian and anti-Romenian propaganda on
>this newsgroup.  They are NOT speaking for the majority of Magyars.
>Their opinion is NOT the popular opinion in Hungary.  Please rememebr
>that when meeting your next Magyar friend.  NOT ALL MAGAYRS ARE
>MEMBERS OF K.K.K. (Kanala Kleansing Klan).

Hey, look at Kristina! She's a PROFESSIONAL, you know?

Rosta
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What I meant is that the remnant communists did the stealing!
I do agree that Hungary still needs lots of investment. The question is
in what?
It seems that the services industry is growing, but the manufacturing
is being left behind. I believe that the country (all countries)
realy need either manufacturing or a uniques services industry to
survive in the next century.

By who pays...I meant the people of Hungary.

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 08:36 PM 9/4/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>
> >I also agree that most of the good cherries are already picked (plums?)
> >they have managed to steal the country blind...and who pays???
>
>         I am glad that you agree with me about the HungarHotels case. I,
> however, cannot agree with you here. Hungary badly needed and still needs
> foreign investment. The more the merrier. Hungary needs capital and the
> Hungarian capitalists don't have the necessary capital to invest in
> revitalizing the economy. Foreign companies have already invested a great
> deal of money in the country which helps to insure the population's future
> well being. Most of the Hungarian exports (something like 75%) comes from
> the multinational corporation's Hungarian subsidiaries.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:59 PM 9/5/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>What I meant is that the remnant communists did the stealing!
>I do agree that Hungary still needs lots of investment. The question is
>in what?
>It seems that the services industry is growing, but the manufacturing
>is being left behind.

        Everywhere in the developed the world the service industry is
overtaking the manufacturing industry--even in the United States. And by the
way, what kind of industry do you have in mind? Hungary doesn't have much
natural resources. So, keep that in mind.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh said:
Everywhere in the developed the world the service industry is
overtaking the manufacturing industry--even in the United States. And by the
way, what kind of industry do you have in mind? Hungary doesn't have much
natural resources. So, keep that in mind.
++++
Well, the number one I think would be to really get the tourist sector going.
This would require better telecom, transport, and attitude. Altough they
have come a long way, they still tend to have the attitude that we are
open when (and if) they feel like it.

As far as manufacturing...there is practically noen (although it may be
quite labor intensive). There are very few high tech manufacturing
industires or manufacturers in Hungary. The whole attitude will have to
change to attract these.  GE's Tungsram is a case in point.  GE wanted to
automate more of the light bulb factory but ran into much opposition when
they wanted to lay off the unproductive workers. -- there still is a poor
work ethic in some industries in Hungary --

Ikarusz makes good trucks/busses, they need more efficient systems and
more marketing. I understand that they now have an assembly plant in the
South for the chassis come form HU, engines from the US.

Hungary is NOT labor cheap enough to perform many of the very labor
intensive plants (leave that to Asia, etc.)

It does have many programmers though (they might compete with the
Indians) and that could be something to try.

We dont need any more steam or diesel locomotives (much as I like them).
The miners and steel workers probably wont have any jobs unless someone
decides to invest (and why would they...it is ceaper elsewhere).

Getting back to number one --- turism...... the roads are quite poor
once you get out of the main BP circuit (and BP-Vienna) they need to fix
that.
There are no airplanes to service the main cities
(miskolc, szeged, debrecen, pecs, szombathely, zala, gyor, etc.)

Most non-Hungarians (except for a few British) do not really know how
nice a country it is....I think that the GE commercial on TV did more for
Hungary here in the States than any other thing.

Peter
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>
>Now, if you do not support your claim by appropriate
>quotes from me, you just proved that you are no more
>than a plain Internet crook.
>
>You don't even deserve that I educate you free about
>the philosophy of one of the giants of our Century,
>Martin Heidegger.

What a joke. You're in no position to educate anyone about anything.
Sam Stowe

"Push the button, Frank."
-- Dr. Clayton Forrester
+ - APOLOGIES (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am extremely sorry for any nuisance caused by the so called
"EARN MONEY FAST & EASY" fraud...
It has absolutely nothing to do with myself, my beliefs and my character.
Unfortunately it was the work of an idiotic joker who WAS to be trusted.

Again thousand apologies.



--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Xenophon Tsakanikas      )
Lesvos FTP Administrator (ftp.med.auth.gr)
School Of Medicine, AUTH, Thessaloniki, Greece
http://www.med.auth.gr/~xtsakan/index.htm
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
+ - Ghymes Ensemble in New York Sept 7 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The New York Hungarian House
213 East 82nd Street, New York NY 10028

welcomes back the

Ghymes Egyuttes --  Music Ensemble

on Saturday, September 7th, 1996 at 7:00 PM

The Ghymes Egyuttes is a highly acclaimed Hungarian folk ensemble from
Bratislava (Pozsony), Slovakia.  They play East-Central European music
on original folk instruments.  Their style and repertoire transcend
cultural boundaries as enthusiastic audiences in France, Switzerland,
Finland, Austria, Spain, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Greece,
Jordan, Japan and the United States will already testify.  Their last
appearance at the Hungarian House in 1994 was a great success and we
are glad to have them back.  This is their only appearance in New York
City -- don t miss it!

Tickets are $15 at the door.
+ - Re: "Professional Politicians" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>"Professional politicians" and democracy are incompatible.  It is an
>oxymoronic concept.
>
>Joe Szalai

You may be throwing the baby out with the bath water on this one, Joe. As
the scope of government expands, the level of policy expertise required to
be an effective legislator or administrator expands as well. That
expertise comes through experience. Let's put it this way -- who do you
want to depend on as a knowledge base for drafting and implementing
legislation, your elected legislator or an unelected and unaccountable
lobbyist? Long-term, uninterrupted service in a legislature or executive
office does, indeed, often tempt "professional politicians" into the bad
habits of losing touch with their constituents and practising cronyism.
But I've seen many such politicians acquire a renewed appreciation for the
public service aspect of the job when they've been unceremoniously
unelected for a term or two.
Sam Stowe

"Push the button, Frank."
-- Dr. Clayton Forrester
+ - Re: Church: Bible stuff.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello Peter,

I enjoyed your posting about cattle disease and prayers. You seem to be able to
believe things much more easily than I. (That is not good or bad.) In your post
it was stated that "the cattle plague was interpreted as part of a continuing
dialogue between the Almighty and His fallen children." That's sounds fine, but
anyone could actually make up anykind of interpretation. If this disease was
never present while the Druids were in power, maybe that could be interpreted
by someone as a sign that Druids were loved by their gods...

Cattle have been raised in a similar way in the Netherlands and many countries.
Why would a god just pick one group of cattle. We are all living very
 differently from life as proscribed in the Bible thousands of years ago- shoul
d
 that be
called 'natural progression and change,' 'progress' or 'deserving of punish-
ment?'

People have always prayed for things, BUT whether their prayers are answered or
not, they are told that it is up to god's will. So, who can interpret disasters
,
let alone their conclusions? Who dares make these interpretations of an unknown
,
superior god? Who dares claim to be on his level to understand his will?

*****
My own family members do not understand each other, and I am insulted when
 others try to think for me and make decisions on my behalf.  Do you think this
 god enjoys watching limited, ignorant humans talk and decide things on its
 behalf?? I would assume not.
*****

A fire can burn and you can pray that it will be extinguished... and sooner or
later... voila.. it's gone (anyway).

It is true that not much is known from AIDS, but I do not see where that is
justification to suddenly play the 'god card' for every unknown. If nothing is
known about something, why do people dare say they KNOW it comes from this god
and they KNOW its reason even??

I, myself, find it hard to swallow some interpretaion just because someone
said it... a queen or otherwise. I'm sure Queen Victoria had a lot of strange
beliefs...

I liked the posting I read earlier sent by someone asking something about god's
plans for cholera and praying it will go away...  I wish I still had that re-
sponse; it was succinct and clear.

Thanks,
Mark
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:44 AM 9/5/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        I myself wouldn't have acted the way the Antall government did in
>1990. As, by now, everybody knows I am a strong believer in the "shock
>therapy"--in the short run it might be painful but in the long run it is
>beneficial.
<snip>

A couple of weeks ago Eva Balogh said that she did not want to dismantle the
welfare state.  She said that that was just my imagination.  It was only in
my head.  Now, she says that she believes in "shock therapy" without
explaining what she means by that term.

What I'd like to know is, who is going to experience the "shock therapy"?
And what I'd like to see is that those who promote such measures should
experience their own medicine.  So, for example, if Eva Balogh wants the
Hungarian government to "shock" people by reducing their wealth by, say 25
percent, then she too should voluntarily reduce her wealth by the same
percentage.  Perhaps she could make a financial donation to her nearest food
bank.  This may be painful for her in the short run but I'm sure she'd
benefit from the experience in the long run.  It would be a win-win situation.

Joe Szalai

"Economic growth may one day turn out to be a curse rather than a good, and
under no conditions can it either lead into freedom or constitute a proof
for its existence."
                Hannah Arendt
+ - Re: Funar - the cold truth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Stowewrite wrote:
>
>
> I would suggest, as well, that since Transylvania-Erdely is currently
> incorporated into the Romanian political entity that the Romanian national
> government has a primary responsibility and obligation to respect the
> rights and recognize the existence of all the inhabitants of that region

xxxxxxx


Based on recent development it is to be concluded the following:

1.  +75% of the elected representatives of the Hungarian Nations
could not care less about the tolerated Hungarian minority living
outside its elected borders. SEE THE RESULT OF THE PARLAMENTARY VOTING
REGARDING THE RECENT TREATY WITH ROMANIA

2.      The FREE Hungary had ample time, six years and two governments, to
object for any alleged injustice suffered. ID DID NOT, more than that it
had defused association with irredentist elements and for the first time
in history had renounced not only to any territorial claim but it has
recognized that no part of the Hungarian nation is living outside its
borders. Outside its borders are only INDIVIDUALS with no right to
collective considerations.

A. Albu
cu asta basta
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:34 PM 9/5/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote in answer to my question:

>And by the
>way, what kind of industry do you have in mind? Hungary doesn't have much
>natural resources. So, keep that in mind.
>++++
>Well, the number one I think would be to really get the tourist sector going.

        Peter, this is not "industry" the way I and most people think of it.
In fact, tourism mainly depends on services (hotels, restaurants). OK.
Tourism is important and this year just as in the last few years forty
million people visited Hungary. However, and this is a big however, tourism
at the Lake Balaton is dwindling. Apparently the water is polluted, the
prices are astronomical, especially considering what you get for it and the
former East German tourists nowadays have better places to go. In brief, the
Balaton is considered to be low rent today. Only people from lower economic
strata would visit it but the merchants of Lake Balaton didn't yet realize
what's up. According to friends in Hungary, Hungarians can have a cheaper
vacation abroad than at the Balaton!

>This would require better telecom, transport, and attitude.

        Indeed, it would. And just imagine the amount of money that is
needed to build four-lane highways. The Hungarian government simply doesn't
have the money and the bits and pieces of new roads are being built by
foreign companies (French and lately Portuguese) which made them toll
roads--some incredible toll on a mere forty kilometers. The development of
telephone service is doing fine, mostly through foreign companies.

>Altough they
>have come a long way, they still tend to have the attitude that we are
>open when (and if) they feel like it.

        I think attitude is changing. Sales persons are quite polite in stores.

>The whole attitude will have to
>change to attract these.  GE's Tungsram is a case in point.  GE wanted to
>automate more of the light bulb factory but ran into much opposition when
>they wanted to lay off the unproductive workers. -- there still is a poor
>work ethic in some industries in Hungary --

        GE had a lot of trouble in the first few years and one
Hungarian-born American manager lost his job as a result. They invested a
lot of money and they lost quite a few millions in the first years but I
understand they have been doing better lately. As far as work ethics is
concerned: yes, productivity is still nowhere near the western standards.

>Ikarusz makes good trucks/busses, they need more efficient systems and
>more marketing. I understand that they now have an assembly plant in the
>South for the chassis come form HU, engines from the US.

        As far as I know Ikarusz is in big-time trouble. It is very possible
that it will simply close doors within a few years. A year ago they
appointed a "wizard" manager from the Kadar era, Adam Angyal, who was
supposed to perform miracles. Today he is is gone: fired. Angyal apparently
realized that Ikarusz cannot be sold as is. There are some units which are
totally unproductive and unsaleable and suggested to close certain units and
sell the one unit in which there was some foreign interest. Well, some
politicians in the ministry didn't like his solution and as a result of a
fairly small order which looked to some people as the "great revival" they
decided to sack Angyal and keep going. We will see how long it will take to
these people to wake up.


>Hungary is NOT labor cheap enough to perform many of the very labor
>intensive plants (leave that to Asia, etc.)

        Correct.

>It does have many programmers though (they might compete with the
>Indians) and that could be something to try.

        Yes, but this is again not exactly what we call industry. Also, I
have the feeling that a Hungarian would be less satisfied than an Indian
with his wages.


>We dont need any more steam or diesel locomotives (much as I like them).
>The miners and steel workers probably wont have any jobs unless someone
>decides to invest (and why would they...it is ceaper elsewhere).

        Correct, they won't have jobs and even today they are heavily
subsidized.

>Getting back to number one --- turism...... the roads are quite poor
>once you get out of the main BP circuit (and BP-Vienna) they need to fix
>that.

        OK. So, you are pushing tourism. So is the Hungarian government. But
that is not "industry" in the traditional sense of the word.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 Tue Sep  3 08:00:48 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #779:

>At 04:32 PM 8/30/96 +0200, Roman Kanal wrote an excellent description of
>Slovak "fascism." I put the word "fascism" in quotation marks because most
>of the extreme nationalists of Eastern Europe, be they Romanians, Slovaks,
>Hungarians, will fiercely object to the term. They don't like the term
>"nationalism socialism" either. One Hungarian "fascist" corrected my usage
>of "nationalism socialism" in connection with Szalasi and corrected it to
>"Hungarism." Of course, that is a ridiculous criticism because the use of
>the word appeared in an English-language publication in the United States
>and in passing. The English-speaking readers wouldn't have had any idea what
>I was talking about when I described Ferenc Szalasi as a Hungarist! But all
>this is not terribly important. We know what we are talking about when we
>are talking about, be that in the Romanian, Slovak, or Hungarian context.
>
>Eva Balogh

Sometimes I have to admire Eva's literary fecundity:  In Hungary #779 she
produced no less than eleven (11) articles with a total of 303 lines.  She
seems to have spent most of the day doing so; she began at 7:55 am and didn't
quit for the day until 7:14 pm.  Sometimes she says interesting things, other
times she just regurgitates her favorite opinions.  The above quote is a good
example; like a pavlovian dog, she can produce an instant conditioned reflex,
in this case, to the word "fascist".  She has her favorite "fascist" story
and she will repeat it at a drop of a hat, no matter how disjointed it may be
to the discussion at hand.  She must have told that one a half dozen times in
Forum and in Hungary in the last several months.  I don't recall the name of
the person she had the argument with -- may have been NPA -- over the meaning
"nazi" versus "fascist".  Because she was shown to be imprecise in her use of
the two words, she never forgave her debate partner.  Hence the wound that
will not heal.

Eva, please learn to be a bit more willing to learn from your opponents as
well as from  your partisans.  And while I am at it: Hoping that you will not
resent it, let me help you with a word you are consistently misspelling:  The
word is Wolf (not Woolf).

Ferenc
+ - Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor, (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, George Antony
> writes:
> Could you guys please cease using the HUNGARY list for this tussle.
>
> Thanks,
> George Antony

George,

I am sorry for that - in fact, it's the followups to a thread that
started about a month ago when Joe Pannon forwarded one Ms. Szurek's
message to soc.culture.magyar under subject "An another example of
Slovak intolerance" and I replied that she does not represent Slovakia
nor Slovaks. Since, there is an escalation when Mr. Frajkor publicly
welcomed Ms. Szurek's call for intolerance.

Believe me, the articles are far more unpleasant for me than for anyone
else on this list. But, this is the true face of the Slovak fascism.

Regards,

Roman Kanala
+ - Re: Heidegger and Hungary Part 3 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Ferenc Novak
> writes:

>If anyone can understand what stowewrote above, please explain to me.
>His foggy prose, coupled with a dash impertinence cannot hide the fact
that
>he is, again, quoting out of context.

I have to hand it to you, Frank. Your willingness to continue making a
fool out of yourself is almost lemming-like in its intensity. Was that too
foggy for you to understand? I can get it down to words of one or two
syllables. It might make it easier for you to lip read as you go along.
Sam Stowe

"Push the button, Frank."
-- Dr. Clayton Forrester
+ - Re: Funar - Correction (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:
>
> Stowewrite wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would suggest, as well, that since Transylvania-Erdely is currently
> > incorporated into the Romanian political entity that the Romanian national
> > government has a primary responsibility and obligation to respect the
> > rights and recognize the existence of all the inhabitants of that region
>
> xxxxxxx
>
> Based on recent development it is to be concluded the following:
>
> 1.  +75% of the elected representatives of the Hungarian Nations
> could not care less about the tolerated Hungarian minority living
> outside its elected borders. SEE THE RESULT OF THE PARLAMENTARY VOTING
> REGARDING THE RECENT TREATY WITH ROMANIA
>
> 2.      The FREE Hungary had ample time, six years and two governments, to
> object for any alleged injustice suffered. ID DID NOT, more than that it
> had defused association with irredentist elements and for the first time
> in history had renounced not only to any territorial claim but it has
> recognized that no part of the Hungarian nation is living outside its
> borders. Outside its borders are only INDIVIDUALS with no right to
> collective considerations.
>
> A. Albu
> cu asta basta


The above 2 points are valid with Romania only. I do not know the text
of other treaties. I believe that with the Slovakia the 1201 art. vas
included without any modification thus there may be recurs to rejoining
future autonomous territories. Could somebody comment?

A. Albu
+ - Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor, (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, George Antony wrote:
>> Could you guys please cease using the HUNGARY list for this tussle.
> They are continuing crossposted threads on Usenet (most posters are
>likely reading bit.listserv.slovak-l only and replying there, possibly
>without being aware of sending to the other groups like b.l.h) - these are
>unlikely to die out for months ;-(...

There is a way if one is prepared to do the following: go to bls-l and
answer these postings from there (with any old thing you might wanna
say ;-)) but before posting make sure the headers are clipped a la Zoli
Fekete (his posting and this reply)! Do this a few times with any of
those postings that include blh and the thread should be removed from
here much more quickly.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> At 11:18 AM 9/5/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>
>         Then George talking about Horn as prime minister:
>
>         Surely, you have a higher opinion of this government than I, or even
> the majority of the Hungarian voters. I believe the popularity of this
> government dropped exactly as much as the popularity of the Antall
> government during exactly the same period.

Has it ?  The Socialists are level pegging with the Smallholders (typical
populists who can wash their hands of the Antall government's record as
they were sidelined by him) as the most popular party and the Free
Democrats tend to be at the same level as the Young Democrats.  All this
after a very painful economic austerity that hurt just about every stratum
of society.  In comparison, where is the MDF ?

> [after coming to power,] For eight solid months
> nothing was happening on the economic front until the decision no longer
> could be postponed: the country would have gone bankrupt.

Sure, but not necessarily in his four-year term.

>So, he was acting under the gun.

The same trends were evident under the Antall/Boross governments' rule
but those gentlemen decided to ignore the gun pointed at the country
because they did not personally feel threatened.

> Then came a whole bunch of quick, not too well thought out,
> decisions concerning the welfare state, half of which turned out to be
> unconstitutional. Decisions are announced about this or that and two months
> later they retreat from the original position.
>
>         And finally, inflation is still high (nowhere close to 20%),
> economic growth slowed, GDP is lower than last year, and so on and so forth.
> Should I continue?

By all means, but this is a rather pointless litany of complaints without
reference to, and comparison with, the likely effects of alternative policies.

It is also very inconsistent that you claim to want economic reform but
then fault the Socialists for the negative impact when they introduce it.
So, economic reform is needed, as long as it is not coming from the
'tainted old commies' ?

>         George disagrees with me concerning the inevitability of economic
> dislocations after 1990:
>
> >I strongly disagree.  There was nothing inevitable about the deterioration,
 or
> >the very least its extent.  The fact that the conservative coalition left
> >Hungary in a relatively worse economic position among the Eastern-European
> >competitors than when it took over is an indictment of its lack of political
> >professionalism or competence.  With the exception of a few (e.g., Kupa)
> >they were of the muddle-on school economically, slightly better than their
> >Ukrainian or Bulgarian counterparts.  They have squandered the early
 advantage
> >that Hungary had in economic transformation and, to me, this is unforgivable
.

> I can't imagine that the MSZP if it had been voted into office in 1990 would
> have been the party to dismantle quickly the edifice of "existing
> socialism."

No, but this is pointless idle speculation.  What is fact is that in 1994
they did start dismantling the remnants of existing socialism

> Perhaps the SZDSZ would have done it then, I don't know.

Fast economic reform was the centrepiece of their political platform and
they continued that political line pretty consistently ever since.

> In
> brief, I don't think that any Hungarian government would have had the will
> or the desire to act decisively in economic terms.

We obviously disagree on that.

>         As for the economic dislocations, I am surprised that you don't
> think that they were inevitable. The whole eastern market collapsing for
> which Hungarian industry was geared!!? Surely, these factories couldn't
> compete with western firms in the western markets. Factories would have had
> to close, people would have had lost their jobs, regardless which party was
> in power.

Czechoslovakia managed with a much smaller blip in GDP than Hungary and
they started from further behind.  True, the jury is still out on the
Czech method of capitalist transformation, but they did manage to avoid
the extent of economic and social dislocation that befell Hungary.

>         The greatest sin of the MDF and other coalition parties was, as far
> as I can see it, the shifting politics from "conservative versus liberal" to
> "national versus cosmpolitan/international" (nemzeti versus nemzetietlen,
> hazafias versus hazafiatlan) realm. But the question is: was this ridiculous
> and dangerous ideology was invented by the politicians or the politicians
> simply responded to public sentiment. This is certainly a topic we could
> discuss.

While politicians have to be acutely aware of public sentiment, they also
have to lead and not follow.  They must be able to distinguish between
buying short-term popularity by appealing to fickle popular sentiment
and dealing with issues with less popular gloss but more profound long-
term implications, and they must set the agenda on the latter.

My main interest is economic and social policy and I tend to view anything
beyond that as a diversion that is only acceptable if all is well on the
socio-economic front.  Hence, what I see as the biggest sin of the MDF
and its one-time coalition partners is that they dropped the socio-
economic ball and endulged in ideological battles instead.

> >It is really simplistic that you should tar all ex-communists with the
> >same brush.
>
>         If I gave this impression that is not what I meant. Of course, they
> were the orthodox kind and they mostly disappeared from the political scene.
> Most of them were older and they simply retired. The Hungarian Who's Who
> doesn't even list them anymore. The reform wing was certainly ready to
> embrace democracy in order to survive but old reflexes die hard. Most of
> these guys managed to climb the totem pole through the KISZ or as party
> apparatchiks. And the talent which propelled them in the old nomenclature
> was very different from what a democratic politician needs. And you can see
> often enough that the reflexes are the old reflexes and democracy is
> something they know is necessary and a good thing but they have to think
> about it. It doesn't come naturally to them. In fact, what comes naturally
> is undemocratic utterances.

That applies equally to the right of the political spectrum, with Antall's
highly authoritarian leadership style being undistinguishable from those
before or after him.  At least Horn hasn't, yet, publicly mulled on how much
more convenient it would be not having to worry about the next election
and still have enough time to complete the embourgeoisification of Hungary.
Or have a review of the current party bigwigs from the point of view of
current democratic credentials.

>         OK. So, what you mean is a talent for politics. Yes, Demszky
> obviously has talent for it but he wasn't a professional politician. Neither
> was Peto or Orban. But, I am afraid, most of the MSZP members of the
> government were professional politicians in the sense of party or KISZ
> functionaries.

You are still driven by simplistic prejudices: once a functionary under
the ancien regime, never suited for a different system.  That ignores the
fact that there are people who are intelligent enough to play the game
whatever its rules may be.  There are others who may well have hidden
their real persona and played the only game in town.  Csurka is a good
example, and perhaps there were some with democratic instincts.  Besides,
one did not have to be a party or KISz functionary in the ancien regime
to be imbued with its political style through playing by its rules.
This was required from those at the level of, say, museum director.

So, I would suggest that any discussion of current Hungarian politicians
and their performance should only consider their current deeds, not from
where they have come.  This incessant harking back to the past is what
is holding Hungary back most: the country needs a clear break much more
than settling old accounts.  The past is wretched and attempts to fix
it up are at best misguided, at worst outright counter-productive.  The
only hope is in the future, and this is at what people should be
concentrating their attention.

George Antony
+ - Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!! WAS: Re: * Mr. Frajkor (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 4 Sep 96 23:49:45 +0200,  (Peter Kmet')
starts asking, with ready made answers:


>Mr. Kanala
>
>are you sure you've never been in Communist party? Maybe Stalin's helper? I
>can not think any other more appropriate place for you.

Yes, I am sure about that I have never been in Communist party. But,
since you show you don't care about facts and don't wait for an answer,
why do you ask ?



> They (communists)
> used same style of arguments in their disputes with public, they
> blacklisted every opponent, ...

It's exactly against the blacklisting that goes on the Slovak-L list,
courtesy of Mr. Frajkor, listowner, that I am raising my voice. Remember,
this thread started with Ms. Szurek's public call for intolerance toward
Magyar minority in Slovakia and Mr. Frajkor's public appraisal of that
text. The articles are available from the UBVM archives in log file 0896a.



>       ...   they denied freedom of association same way as
> you do in your posting on August 30:
>
>
> RK:rather a compliment). Frajkor, Pacek, Szurek, Gazdik, Ziska, Kmet...
> RK: ... who are using inuendo and undue association of themselfs with the
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> RK:whole nation.


On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:21:34 -0700, you, Peter Kmet', wrote:

~ I have just read as a newcomer) all articles on your group and I want
~ just to reflect on the Group.
~
~ Well The First it seem to be Mr. George Frajkor from Ottawa. His articles
~ are often informative, sometimes not, but always full of love for Slovaks
~ and Slovakia.
~
~ On the other end of spectrum is Mr. Roman Kanala, well educated, self-
~ proclaimed democrat, who shows only hatred and contempt for everything of
~ Slovaks or Slovakia. He sees in every Slovak fascist, he belittles, uses
~ inuendo and undue association of the whole nation with failures of it's
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ individual members. It seems to me that this guy is sick in his hatred.
~ It is amazing he is still running freely around.


And it's from the latest statement that Ms. Szurek & Co. started
their opus.


> Who are You Mr. Kanala?

Sir, be a man, do your homework yourself. Who am I, what I wrote and what
is the hearsay about what I wrote, what values I am defending, what am I
fighting against, who is trying to soil my reputation and why, all that
can be found online on the Net.

Roman Kanala
+ - Re: To agent "Lup". (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ferenc:
At 07:55 PM 9/4/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Ladies (if I may use the term loosely), please watch what comes out of your
>mouths ;-)
>
>Ferenc

No, you may not - at least not until you have the pleasure of meeting of us
face to face, soul to soul; (sorry Eva.... don't mean to be speaking for you
too here)  But perhaps you _can_ be of help and come up with a more "polite"
description to the original posting in question.  I for one, could not.  In
fact I still consider it to be a rather kind descript of the context.  Then
again, failing assistance from you, we _could_ potentially turn to a
Professional for help - anyone come to mind?.  Or perhaps it would be kinder
on your eyes to view the "opinion" in French?  Returning to the point of
questions, which you seemed to have totally missed in the posting as being a
key point; "what sort of within is there"?
Aniko
>
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From: Charles M. Vamossy >
> George Anthony wrote:
>
> The buyer
> probably had reasonable expectations that the negotiators representing
> the Government had the approval of its head.

Not necessarily.  The PM is not party to every negotiation, usually
gives his imprimatur at the final stage and it is his prerogative to
overrule his underlings.  It is like this everywhere in the world.

> When PM Horn announced
> busting the deal, the US buyer was probably heard muttering a few
> choice words under his breath about Hungarian general business
> standards and the people who practise them...

If this welshing on a not-quite-delivered deal is seen as uniquely
Hungarian, then some reality checking is in order.  Even in a
developed country such as Australia there are many cases in the
public domain where businesses were similarly treated by various
governments.

> As far as breach of contract is concerned, the buyers may have toyed
> with the idea but ended up rejecting it.  Even if an agreement that had
> the standing of a contract could be produced (which is doubtful) where
> would s/he file her complaint?  In a Hungarian Court?  This is the same
> group of legal whizzes who ruled that property taken away by the
> communists based on laws that have since been declared illegal stays
> with the illegal owners as long as the original legal owners were given
> partial compensation, in other words legalizing the theft of property.
> Surely our US buyer could not hope for fair treatment in such a court.

This is a rather derogatory treatise of the Hungarian legal system,
probably stemming from lack of information.  The Hungarian legal
tradition is of strict case law, with very little scope for the effective
lawmaking capacity of courts or judges in Anglo-Celtic countries.
Hence, in Hungary the Parliament makes the law and the courts just
act on it.  Only the Constitutional Court that has the power to
rule on the legality of legislation, but they would not be
involved in commercial litigation.

> So the US buyer walked away a great deal wiser about doing business in
> Hungary.  About the only thing s/he did was to make sure that the New
> York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times and the
> Economist had the whole story,

I only read The Economist and they made merely a most cursory
mention of Horn  cancelling a high-profile privatization deal  in
an April article about the economic austerity programme,
entitled  Radical at last .

But, as evidenced by recent developments, the whole aggro did not
prevent other suitors from offering a higher price for the assets.

> before buying a plane ticket to Prague
> to check out what might be for sale there.

If the US buyer is checking out the Czechs with expectations of more
generous treatment he (or she, of course) will be in for a shock.
While I cannot cite examples and references, I recall cases of
disputation between potential investors and the government.

> And PM Horn sat back, content with his sudden rise in domestic
> popularity as a result of his well planned action...

Indeed, as the people he has to please to get re-elected is the
domestic electorate, not a bunch of US hoteliers.

George Antony

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