Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 763
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-08-19
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Toronto. (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
2 Fall of the Roman Empire (was: Identities in XV) (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Identities in XV (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Sophistry (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
8 Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
11 Toronto. (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
12 megale Moravia. (mind)  231 sor     (cikkei)
13 Part 2, megale Moravia (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: English language and other goodies - (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
15 Hungarian and foreign newspapers (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Toronto. (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Identities in XV (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
19 Lnaguage Police (formerly: Toronto) (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Lnaguage Police (formerly: Toronto) (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Toronto. (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Identities in XV (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Sophistry (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Identities in XV - Respect - (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
27 Budapest condo for sale; interested? (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
28 God's Tenure (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: English language and other goodies - (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:34 PM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>FYI I heard it from an Anglo. If the facts seem to bother you that much
>perhaps you live in a dream world of your own making!
>
>On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>> At 10:38 AM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>>
>> >I also heard that the Anglo types have difficulty learning other languages.
>>
>> You are very offensive, Peter!
>>
>> Joe Szalai

Thank you, Peter.  I now know how you gather information and how you form
your ideas.  You say that you heard that from "an Anglo".  From one Anglo!
One!!!  And this one Anglo spoke on behalf of the hundreds of millions of
other Anglo's.  And you believed!  Why bother to get a second opinion when
you can paint so many with one brush.  Well, I suppose that bigotry was
never meant to be difficult, eh?

Joe Szalai
+ - Fall of the Roman Empire (was: Identities in XV) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>I'm forwarding this for Mark Humphreys ) who was having
>trouble connecting with listserv...

>HOW IGNORANT and pathetic!  The Roman empire was flourishing and doing just
>fine for centuries... it was not until they fell for Christianity that the
>empire fell!

If we consider what was the start of the downfall of the Roman Empire,
it will be found that it was simply when the Goths started to be hired
as mercenaries. To that small beginning can be traced the enervation
of the forces of the Roman Empire. And the Goths inherited the prowess
which the Romans lost.

Machiavelli in *The Prince*.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Zoli
Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" > doth aver:

>While I actually agree with this last statement, it is not really linked
>to whether or not an official language is legislatively sanctioned. Nor
>does equating language activists on both sides have much bearing on the
>situation - obviously, the minority language speakers are not going to
>force English speakers to abandon their mother tongue.

Yes, it does have a lot of bearing. And it would have helped if you had
quoted me in full, rather than so selectively. There are human activities
which are not particularly amenable to regulation by the fiat of law.
Language is certainly an excellent example of this. Once activists start
trying to use the political arena to dictate winners and losers among
languages, we get bristly little bureaucrats dashing about with tape
measures to check the height of lettering in English on signs to make sure
it's smaller than the French lettering. Or we get creeps like Gheorghe
Funar who can't leave decent people alone to speak whatever language they
wish among themselves. I think California became a hot bed for the
official English movement because state politics moved much too forcefully
in the direction of protecting minority languages. It is a particularly
cruel form of child abuse to educate a kid from Kindergarten through the
senior year of high school in a language which is not the standard koine
of commerce, government and public discourse of the society in which he or
she is expected to become a full-fledged member. Full participation in
civic life in the U.S. requires that you speak English. That's not a law,
it's just a plain fact. And administering the oath of citizenship in any
language other than English simply obscures it. You can live here happily
for decades without speaking a word of English. But that doesn't mean
you're fully participating in the culture. Without English, you'll always
be standing on the outside looking in, with an outsider's very limited
grasp of what's going on around you.

>
>> I read about citizenship ceremonies conducted in Spanish
>> and I wonder just how effectively that citizenship can be exercised
when
>> the new citizen can't understand English well enough to read a
newspaper
>> or watch the evening news on television.
> Allo? News-flash to you: there are plenty of Spanish papers, horribile
>dictu an increasing number of newscasts and even Hispanic channels
around...

Zut alors! I 'ave been, 'ow you say?, transported to an alternate
universe! The universe in which I originated has this political entity
called the United States which covers a large portion of North America.
You're gonna love this next part! You see, in the United States in the
universe where I come from, the federal legislature and all of the state
legislatures conduct their business in English. No, really -- they do! And
the major media? Well, in the universe I came from, the overwhelming
majority of television and radio broadcasts were in English. No, I'm not
making this up and, no, I don't want to lie down until the nice men in
white coats can come and take me away. And I'll telll you what else -- an
overwhelming percentage of even the mass-market newspapers and magazines
were printed in English. Yeah, you had other media outlets in major cities
like New York or Los Angeles or Miami where there was a definite media
presence in other languages. But they were aimed at immigrant communities
and didn't have nearly any impact on the broader American culture because
they weren't in English. And the only people who confused the major
American media with the smaller version which targeted immigrant
communities were people who lived almost exclusively in those major cities
and never dared to stray outside them into the vast, uncharted American
wilderness where English held almost exclusive sway over public life...
Sam Stowe
> --
> Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
>*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
>*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
>*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
>
>


"Amiguito, amiguito
soy yo de diablos juradores..."
-- Cervantes
+ - Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (Burian)
writes:

>we do have a concept called "national treasures"--things
>which we try to preserve because we feel that if we lost them, we'd lose
a
>part of who we are.  I still maintain that the English language deserves
>that designation.  How to keep English alive?  I don't know.  But please
>don't say that American English's evolution through the country's
>multi-cultural contributions is the same thing as misusing words, or not
>using words at all.  When people's average vocabulary drops (not
>changes--drops) thousands of words in the past fifty years (as I
mentioned
>in the Harper's quote), we're losing our language.
>
>Burian

Burian, you and I aren't really all that far apart on this issue. I would
like to see some reliable data on the average vocabulary of the American
English speaker. If it does show a drop in the total number of words the
American English speaker has in his or her vocabulary over the past fifty
years, there are any number of possible causational factors that could be
involved. It's useless to speculate on those factors until we've seen
clear evidence that there has been a decline in the average size of the
vocabulary. But what the heck -- if you can't speculate uselessly on the
Internet, where else can you do it? My guess would be that any decline in
vocabulary would correlate with the rise of non-print sources of
information and entertainment -- radio, television, movies, videotape,
etc. And the print media has gotten downright obsessive in recent years
about dumbing down its content to reach more readers. It's a race to the
bottom of a very deep, dark barrel at this point. Marshall McLuhan was
right to be so apprehensive about the impacts of new communication
technologies on society.
Sam Stowe

"Amiguito, amiguito
soy yo de diablos juradores..."
-- Cervantes
+ - Re: Identities in XV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Aug 17,  9:42pm, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Subject: Re: Identities in XV
> Mr. Duna:
> That comment was uncalled for and a lowblow.
>-- End of excerpt from Peter A. Soltesz

    Mr. Soltesz:

       First  - My name is Danube, not Duna.  It is a matter of
                simple and basic courtesy  to address people by
                their names, not what you imagine it should be.
                Perhaps you should work on this concept.

       Second - You are the  one who used  degrading adjectives
                in connection of some people, not I. If you are
                able and willing to dish it out,you should also
                be able and willing to take it.
                                               Sincerely,
                                               Amos J. DANUBE
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:45 PM 8/17/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

ESB:
>>         I'm not an expert on Heidegger and I don't know why he resigned from
>> the University of Fryburg's rectorship. One can resign from a post for

Zoli Sz.:
>Maybe he misused the Internet. He became involved in political
>debates using office computers beyond the lunchtime. ;-)

        This is the kind of debating style which I find very offensive. This
is not taking anyone anywhere.

ESB:
>> Under a
>> heavy marxist ideological dictatorship, when nothing else could be taught
>> except Marxism, I assume Lukacs sounded the most palatable. And that's why
>> he had the a Kindergarten around him. Under *those circumstances* the
>> members of the Kindergarten thought that they were doing something which was
>> actually against the regime.

Zoli Sz.:

>Don't tell me! Is it really true? Then shame on Heidegger!

        The Third Reich lasted approximately a decade. Hungary and the rest
of Eastern Europe was under Soviet tutelage for approximately half a
century. Try to keep this in mind.

ESB:
>> You may have noticed
>> that I put the words, "strand of extreme nationalism" into quotation marks
>> and for good reason. The quotation is from Marjorie Grene, professor of
>> philosophy at the University of California, Davis, author of Introduction to
>> Existentialism (1959), Heidegger (1957), and several other books.

Zoli Sz.:
>Oh, you don't have access to more up-to-date literature. What
>a pity! (And, of course, you just hate to read the original
>Heidegger... You just put him in a box. Very typical.)

        Again, I find you offensive. As I told you I don't know how many
times I am not a philosopher and I am not reading Heidegger in my spare time
as I don't read Lukacs in my spare time. In preparation of my answers to you
I talked to a friend of mine about Heidegger who has a Ph.D. in Philosophy
and I read the article on Heidegger in a four-volume encyclopedia of
philosophy which I happen to have at home. I am not willing to do more on
Heidegger or on Lukacs for that matter. If your hobby is to read Heidegger,
fine, keep going. And in any case, we were not discussing the merits of
Heidegger's and Lukacs's philosophy, we were talking about their politics.


ESB:
>About Lukacs' shady past:
>>         I didn't realize that political commisars were "to show the soldiers
>> how to fight." I thought that their job was political indoctrination.(;))

Zoli Sz.:
>Good! Now we know, that 'political indoctrination' means
>shooting down people. Excellent!

        You have no reason to rejoice here on your fantastic sense of humor.
Your original statement made little sense. Political commissars (as later
the political officers) were in charge of ideological indoctrination.

ESB:
>> What else would
>> you like to do--if you were an entirely free agent--with him and his
>> followers: Kill them? Throw them into jail? What?

Zoli Sz.:
>I can't believe what you wrote down. It is kind of beyond
>what I ever would expect from even a Farkas Doc.

        Well, I had to ask the question because you just don't let go of
Lukacs. You keep hammering at it and hammering at it. No answer seems
satisfactory to you. I think it is quite obvious from my answers that I am
no apologist of Lukacs, and I don't think my of his so-called philosophy. I
don't know how much more you want. As for Gabor Farkas, I usually agree what
Gabor says.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Stowewrite wrote:
 [singing the tune that'd make model monoglot civics like Funar, Milosevic
and Meciar proud ;-<]

 I must say I find absolutely fabberglasting that anyone with Hungarian
interest would consider the language chauvinist appeal not only the right
thing, but a harmless one too...

>[...] Or we get creeps like Gheorghe
> Funar who can't leave decent people alone to speak whatever language they
> wish among themselves.
 Whereas making a state/federal law sanctioning said desire is certain to
take the wind out of their sail, right? Sure.

> Full participation in
> civic life in the U.S. requires that you speak English.
 Note that the point of the law making the language official is not that
one should speak English (most would in any event without the law, and the
rest is unlikely to be influenced by legislature), but that ONLY English
can be spoken officially.
 And as a matter of fact even the Republican presidential nomination (what
could be more of a civic event ;-() was conducted in Spanish by some
delegates - an act reportedly praised by VP nominee Kemp (before his flop
on immigrants, I believe). But don't let the facts creep into this
attractive 'one country - one language - one nation' picture - after all
it's such a powerful slogan, even after losing some in the translation
from the original German ;-(...

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:38 PM 8/17/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>At 11:12 PM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
>>Pehaps one should also ask what is discrimination?
>>If one tells Nufie(sp?)[Newfoundlanders] or black (negro) or Gypsie
>>or Jewish Jokes in private (or in public) is that not
>>discrimination???
>
>Not in my opinion. It is not nice, it may hurt someone's feelings, but it is
>not discrimination.
>
>Discrimination is if someone is denied a job, a place to live, a place in a
>school, etc. because of his or her origin.

You're right, Gabor.  However, those jokes can still be called racist,
sexist, or what have you.  Besides, I'd like to know why some people feel a
need to tell jokes at the expense of some identifiable group.  I guess they
get some satisfaction from knowing that, despite their own problems, at
least they're not members of the targeted group.

What concerns me about these jokes is that they bolster and strengthen
stereotypes about others.  And after one's managed to stereotype a group of
people, discrimination becomes a virtue.  I mean, after all, if one hears
enough jokes(?) about how gossipy or dumb women are, why pay them the same
wage as the 'smarter' man?  And members of other targeted groups often don't
even get a chance at a decent job.  Is it any wonder then, that governments
sometime have to resort to policies like affirmative action, etc..

Don't get me wrong, though.  I enjoy a good laugh and a joke as much as the
next person.  However they don't have to be at the expense of an
identifiable group.  Self-deprecating jokes can be just as humourous.
Perhaps even more so.

Joe Szalai

"A dirty joke is a sort of mental rebellion."
     George Orwell
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:47 AM 8/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>I think California became a hot bed for the
>official English movement because state politics moved much too forcefully
>in the direction of protecting minority languages.

You may think that but can you prove it?

>It is a particularly
>cruel form of child abuse to educate a kid from Kindergarten through the
>senior year of high school in a language which is not the standard koine
>of commerce, government and public discourse of the society in which he or
>she is expected to become a full-fledged member.

Does that really happen, Sam?  You mean that in California I can run into a
recent high school graduate who doesn't know how to read or write English?
Gee-whiz, I meet high school graduates here who can't read or write English.
And they were educated in English.

>Full participation in
>civic life in the U.S. requires that you speak English. That's not a law,
>it's just a plain fact. And administering the oath of citizenship in any
>language other than English simply obscures it. You can live here happily
>for decades without speaking a word of English. But that doesn't mean
>you're fully participating in the culture. Without English, you'll always
>be standing on the outside looking in, with an outsider's very limited
>grasp of what's going on around you.

Immigrants are always left standing on the outside looking in.  My English
language skills are now passable but I know that I'll never belong to one of
those old clubs that are in every city in Canada.  To belong, you have to be
a member of the old, monied, Protestant, elite.  And if you're from that
group they already know you and you're probably already a member. The
nouveaux riches and people with strange sounding foreign names will never be
members.  Not that I would want to belong...

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:50 AM 8/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, responding to Burian, wrote:

>Burian, you and I aren't really all that far apart on this issue. I would
>like to see some reliable data on the average vocabulary of the American
>English speaker. If it does show a drop in the total number of words the
>American English speaker has in his or her vocabulary over the past fifty
>years, there are any number of possible causational factors that could be
>involved. It's useless to speculate on those factors until we've seen
>clear evidence that there has been a decline in the average size of the
>vocabulary. But what the heck -- if you can't speculate uselessly on the
>Internet, where else can you do it? My guess would be that any decline in
>vocabulary would correlate with the rise of non-print sources of
>information and entertainment -- radio, television, movies, videotape,
>etc. And the print media has gotten downright obsessive in recent years
>about dumbing down its content to reach more readers. It's a race to the
>bottom of a very deep, dark barrel at this point. Marshall McLuhan was
>right to be so apprehensive about the impacts of new communication
>technologies on society.

If you're willing to listen to another Canadian, I'll tell you that fewer
and fewer people read newspapers today.  Fewer people read anything these
days.  Soon you'll hear something like this on TV:  "People who READ books.
Next on Geraldo!"  That would be a double plus good show.

Joe Szalai
+ - Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'd like to bring to your attention about the language police in Quebec.
The party Qubecois,wich is the separatist party and the governing party in
Quebec,hires more language police,to check if the signs in stores are mostly
in french,and the english ones are smaler,or hidden.
This policy is supposed to strenghten the french language in Qebec,mostly in
Montreal,since there apparenlty the french language is in decline.Most
english speaking people are fluent in french also,since otherwise they
couldn't make a living.They started a campaign against chain stores
(Zellers,the Bay etc)to have english sings also.Now Mr.Bouchard governement
is hiring more language police.
I have left Montreal many years ago,when the first PQ.governement put
retrictions on language.Another reason was when a french customer of mine said:
I should tell my Boss to hire a french man,instead of me,even if I spoke
french with him.I had enough of laws and restrictions so I selected what
many other people did and do,just left that province,and I still don't
regret it.
This is just a reminder what laws,restrictive language laws can do.
Andy.
+ - megale Moravia. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I did not want to repeat previous discussion, but try to go to single
sources
to look at the south megale Moravia discussion. The following is based on
the
Royal Frankish Annals. I am using the Scholz English translation.

In the Pannoian regions the Franks had two major incursions. One was aimed
at
the Avars, the other at a Slavic chieftain (based on sources most likely
Croatian named Ljudovit. There is no discussion of Moravians in relation to
these wars. As a matter of fact they are mentoned only once for 822: "At
this
assembly he [Louis the Pious] received embassies and presents frommall the
East, that is, Obrodites, Sorbs, Wiltzi, Bohemians, Moravians, and
Praedencenti, and from the Avars living in Pannonia." It is interesting to
note that the supposed complete destruction of the Avars was supposed to
have
taken place in 796, although th RFA has numerous references to them in
later
years, but other than that a suuposedly destroyed nation is frequently
mentioned even in later years, while there is no mention of any Moravia
forming in Pannonia. However Ljudovit is mentioned before the first mention
of any Moravians. The following are excerpts from the RFA by years. []
indicates my comments when inserted in a quotation.

818
"The envoys of other peoples were also there, that is, of the Obrodites, of
Borna, duke of the Guduscani, and the Timociani, who have revolted against
the Bulgars and come over to our side; [ indication of direct borders
between
the Bulgars and the Franks]also of Ljudovit, duke of Lower Pannonia, a
schemer and agitator, who tried to acccuse Count Cadolah, commander of the
March of Friuli, of brutality and arrogance."

819
" Another assembly was held at the palace of Ingelheim in July, and because
of Ljudovit's revolt, an army was sent to from Italy into Pannonia. This
army
got nowhere and returned with nothing to show for its efforts. Carried away
by his own insolence, Ljudovit sent envoys to the emperor, acting as if he
wanted peace. He proposed several conditions to be met before he would do
as
he was told. When the emperor did not accept these conditions and proposed
others through his envoys, Ljudovit decided to continue in his treacherous
course and sent envoys around to the neighboring tribes, trying to incite
them to war. The Timociani had broken with the Bulgars and wished to come
over to the emperor's side, submitting to his authority. But Ljudovit
blocked
this move, and with specious reasoning led them on to drop their plan and
join his perfidious revolt.

When the army returned from Pannonia, Cadulah, duke of Friuli, died of
fever
in this march, Baldrich succeeded him. When he entered Carinthia, which was
under his command, he came upon Ljudovit's host. With a handful of men he
attacked it on the march along the river Drave, destryed a good many of the
enemy, routed his host, and done it out of that province.

With a large body of men, Borna, the duke of Dalmatia, came upon Ljudovit,
who had been advancing against him, on the river Kulpa. At the first
encounter the Guduscani deserted Borna, but he escaped under the cover of
his
bodyguard. In this battle Ljudovit's father-in-law, Dragomosus perished. He
had deserted his son-in-law and joined Borna when his rebellion began. But
Ljudovit seized the opportunity and with a strong force invaded Dalmatia in
December, ravaging the whole land with fire and sword. When Borna saw that
he
was no match for Ljudovit, he stored all he could in his castles, and
attacked Ljudovit's army with crack troops. Hampering him now in the rear
and
now in the flank, he wore him down day and night and would not let him stay
unpunished in his province. In the end he forced Ljudovit to retreat from
his
territory after suffering heavy losses. Three thousand of Ljudovit's army
were killed, more than three hundred horses were captured, and baggage and
all sorts of spoils seized. Borna took care to inform the emperor through
his
envoys how this was done."

820

"In January an assembly was held in Aachen. The matter of Ljudovit's
rebellion came up and the decison was made to dispatch three armies from
three directions at once in order to lay waste Ljudovit's territory and
curb
his pretentions. Through envoys and then in person Borna offered his
opinion
on what should be done."
" When the winter was over and the grass could provide fodder for the
horses,
the three armies were sent against Ljudovit. One of them came from Italy by
the way of the Noric Alps, the second through the province of Carinthia;
the
third by Bavaria and Upper Pannonia. The two which moved on the right and
left went slowly, since one was hindered in the Alps by enemy forces, while
the other was slowed down by the length of the route and by the river
Drave,
which had to be crossed. But the one in the center, whic entered by way of
Carinthia, although meeting resistance in three places, luckily overcame it
each time., crossed the Dave and arrived at its destination more rapidly.
Ljudovit undertook nothing against this force but lay low with his men
behind
the bulwark of a castle that he had built on a steep mountain. He
reportedly
said nothing about war or peace, either in person or through his envoys.
But
when the armies had united, they ravaged almost the whole land with fire
and
sword and then returned home without suffering any serious losses. But the
army which marched through Upper Pannonia suffered misfortune when crossing
the Drave. From the unhealthy land and water, it was severly stricken with
dysentery, to which a considerable number succombed. These three armies had
been recruited in in Saxony, East Francia, and Alamania, as well as bavaria
and Italy. After their return home the people of Carniola, who live along
the
river Save and bosder almost on the Friuli, surrendered to Baldrich and so
did those of the Carinthians who had defected from us to Ljudovit."

821
"In February an assembly was held at Aachen and war against Ljudovit was
planned. Provisions were made for the three armies to take turns during
next
summer and rvage the fields of the traitors."
"The counts who had already retirned from Pannonia were also present at
this
assembly. They had laid waste to the entire territory of the renegades
clinging to Ljudovit and then returned home since nobody met them with
troops
in battle."

822
"An army was sent from Italy into Pannonia to finish the war against
Ljudovit. Ljudovit withdrew from the city of Sisak and fled to the Serbs, a
people that is said to hold a large part of Dalmatia. After treacherously
murdering the only on of their dukes who had received him, he took over his
city. Yet he still sent his envoys to the emperor, promising that he was
willing to appear before him." [This is the year when first mention is made
of the Moravians as quoted above, but still indicating Avars in Pannonia.]

823
"...the emperor was on the point of leaving, he was informed that Ljudovit
has perished. When Ljudovit after leaving the Serbs, went to Liudemhus,
uncle
of duke Borna, and stayed with him for a while, he was murdered by
Liudmuhl's
treachery."

The above is interesting in decsribing of who was where in the early part
of
the IX century in Pannonia. Ljudovit blocks the Timociani who are defecting
from the Bulgars to the Franks. Thus while the Timociani are likely to the
east of Ljudovit, they are neighbore of the Bulgarians. Ljudovit escapes to
the Srebs, thus there is no mention of any Moravians nearby to th south or
east of him. There are Avars still in Pannonia. But lets see what the
following years say about the Bulgars (this is in Omurtag's time)

824
"N, king of the Bulgars sent envoys with peace overtures to the emperor.
When
the emperor had received them and he had read the letters they brought, he
was moved by the novelty of this matter to explore more thoroughly the
cause
of this unprecedented legation which never before came to Francia. He sent
Machelm, a Bavarian, with these envoys to the king of the Bulgars."

"After arriving at Aachen and celebrating Christmas there, he was informed
that the envoys of the king of the Bulgars were in Bavaria. He contacted
them
and made them wait there until the right moment. The emperor also received
the envoys of the Obrodites who are commonly called the Praedenecenti and
live in Dacia on the Danube as neighbors of the Bulgars, of whoes arrival
he
had been informed. When they complained about vicious aggression by the
Bulgars and asked for help against them, he told them to go home and so
return when the envoys of the Bulgars were to be recived."
[This is a possible for an area where both Vlachs and Slavs maybe together
but it is most likely behind the Timociani based on the Ljudovit story.
Please also note that they are listed separately from the Moravians for
822]

825
"He ordered the envoys of the Bulgars to come to Aachen about the middle of
May.." "On his return to Aaachen after the hunting season was over, he
recived the Bulgar embassy. The question at issue was the determination of
the borders between the Franks and Bulgars." [Oops, this is fairly
straightforward on where the borders lie.]

826
"When the envoys of the Bulgars reported to their king what they had
accomplished, he sent his first embassador again with letters to the
emperor
and requested that the borders be determined without further delay, or if
this was not acceptable to the emperor, that each would guard his frontiers
without a peace treaty."
"Counts Baldrich and gerold commanders of the Pannonian border were at this
assembly and testified that up to this moment they had not been able to
detect a movement of the Bulgars against us."

827
"The Bulgars sent an army on ships up the Drave and harassed the Slavs
living
in Pannonia with fire and sword. They expelled the Slavic chieftains and
appointed Bulgar governors instead. [IMHO this appear to indicate that the
Bulgars were in not only the Carpathian basin but even in Pannonia. If
there
was any other strong area just south of the Danube, it would have been
difficult to sail up the Drave.

828
"Baldrich duke of Friuli was also deprived of the offices he held and the
march which he had ruled alone was divided among four counts. Because of
his
cowardice, the army of the Bulgars had ravaged with impunity the borderland
of Upper Pannonia." [Oops again]


Thus, there was a border and conflict between the Franks and the Bulgars
and
it happened to be in Pannonia, meaning that particularly based on the
numerous sources listed wars between the Bulgars and the Serbs and Croats
respectively there does not appear to be space for a southern origin for
megale Moravia. However, Avar survivors (probably in the process of partial
or total Slavicization are mentioned as well the Bulgarian administration
for
at least parts of the region in question.

This will come in spurts, because of my frequent trips and other duties.
Sorry for the extensive quotes, but I try to presentb what was actually
written and not only give my or others interpretations.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Part 2, megale Moravia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is part two of the single source discussion regarding the location of
megale Moravia. This source id Liudprand born in Pvia in 924, who travelled
several times on embassies to Constantinople and was a contemporary of
Porphyrogenitus. I am using the F.W. Wright translation edited by J.J.
Norwich.

Antapodosis I/5
" "At this date the most mighty king Arnulf, who had succeeded Charles
surnamed the Bald, was overlord of the Bavarians, the Swabians, the
Teutonic Franks, the Lotharingians and the bold Saxons; but was vigorously
opposed by Centebold Duke of the Maraveni."

This qoute, by the listing of the fors and the contras, indicates that the
good Centobald [Svatopluk] was neighboring the folks who were in his realm.

I/11
[Byzantium] stands surrounded by warlike peoples. On the north it has
Hungarii, the Pizenaci [Patzinaks], the Chazari, and Russii sometimes
called by another name Nordmanni, and the Bulgars who live too close for
harmony.

I/13
"Meanwhile, Arnulf, the strongest ruler among the northern peoples, found
himself unable to overcome the vigorous resistance offered to him by the
aforsaid Centebald dke of the Maravani. Accordingly he broke down         -
O grievous tale! - the strong barriers which, as we had said before, are
usually called the closures and called in the Hungarians to help him.."
"What happened? Centebald was beaten, subdued and forced to pay tribute;"
" After defeating Centebald, duke of the Maravani, Arnulf settled himself
peacefully in his kingdom. The Hungarians for their part surveyed the
country, and while they waited to his [Arnulf] end, were already, as
afterwards made plain, devising mischief in their hearts."

Now the closures indicated were set up to keep the riff-raff out of the
Frankish controlled areas, if these needed to be broken down to let the
Hungarian rapid reaction force to come to Arnulf's assistance, the
indication is again that Centebold was not wardheeler in the southern
precincts. There is also no indication that the Franks had control south of
the Danube.

II/2
"In the first year after Arnulf's death [899] and his son's succession, the
Hungarians collected a large army and laid claim to the territory of the
Maravani, a people in whom Arnulf had thought to find support against their
attacks. They also seized the land of the Bavarians, destroyed their
castles, burned their churches, massacred their people, and to make
themsleves more and more feared, drank the blood of those whom they had
slain." [the blood sausages came only later].

Considering that the bavarians were in nominal control of even Pannonia at
the time, it is reasonable to take the war as a westward movement. There is
no reason to speculate that a small principality in the south of the lower
Danube would have been in the way of the described Hungarian movement.

II/3
"King Louis with his army had just reached Augsburg, a city on the borders
of Swabia, Bavaria and eastern France, when he heard of their [Hungarians]
unexpected, or rather undesired, proximity. Accordingly next day the two
armies met on the plains of the river Lech, by their extent well suited to
the work of Mars."..... "You could have seen the woods and fields strewn
with corpses, the rivers running red with blood, while the neighing of
horses and the blare of the bugles increased the terror of the fugitives
and cheered the assilants to fresh efforts."

Now the first major battle between the Franks and the Hungarians at the
Lech is again not an indication of the residence of the Hungarians solely
in the percieved southern Moravian percincts.

So here is a contemporary of Porphyrogenitus, whose work does not assist
the southern megale Moravia theory.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: English language and other goodies - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>And Sam, if you're ever fortunate enough to be granted an audience with
me I
>will fully expect you to get on your knees and kiss the ring that used to
be
>on my finger.  It's now on another appendage (no, not my funny bone!) but
>I'll explain later.
>
>Joe Szalai

You seem to forget, mon ami -- I am a Protestant! No ring kissing of any
kind for us, no matter where it's located.
Sam Stowe

"Amiguito, amiguito
soy yo de diablos juradores..."
-- Cervantes
+ - Hungarian and foreign newspapers (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A few days ago Eva Kende called our attention to the website of
Nepszabadsag. Here is another one which allows you to access 57 Hungarian
dailys, weeklies, monthlies, in addition to many, many American, English,
German, French, Italian papers.

        The address is: http://www.hungary.net/stand.htm

        Good luck,

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe you do like to JUMP to conclusions dont you?

The fact is that many many Anglos have difficulty with foreign
languages. Apparently they were never forced to learn others
like many Europeans had to.  Perhaps it is due to the isolation
they tended to live in (Island - for the UK) and far from everywhere
(for North America) so they have no history and necessity of
learning foreign languages. Besides, the Anglos' were the business
men of the world and it is a hcek of a lot easier for them to say
it in English than any other language!
+ - Re: Identities in XV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Mr. Danube:

Being that you were on the Hungarian Discussion Group, I have apparently
incorrectly assumed that you were of Hungarian origin and therefore
Anglicized your name from DUNA which is the Hungarian name for Danube.
+ - Re: Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I cant believe it.... I actually agree with what Joe Szalai said?!?!
Peter Soltesz

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 08:38 PM 8/17/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:
>
> >At 11:12 PM 8/17/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> >
> >>Pehaps one should also ask what is discrimination?
> >>If one tells Nufie(sp?)[Newfoundlanders] or black (negro) or Gypsie
> >>or Jewish Jokes in private (or in public) is that not
> >>discrimination???
> >
> >Not in my opinion. It is not nice, it may hurt someone's feelings, but it is
> >not discrimination.
> >
> >Discrimination is if someone is denied a job, a place to live, a place in a
> >school, etc. because of his or her origin.
>
> You're right, Gabor.  However, those jokes can still be called racist,
> sexist, or what have you.  Besides, I'd like to know why some people feel a
> need to tell jokes at the expense of some identifiable group.  I guess they
> get some satisfaction from knowing that, despite their own problems, at
> least they're not members of the targeted group.
>
> What concerns me about these jokes is that they bolster and strengthen
> stereotypes about others.  And after one's managed to stereotype a group of
> people, discrimination becomes a virtue.  I mean, after all, if one hears
> enough jokes(?) about how gossipy or dumb women are, why pay them the same
> wage as the 'smarter' man?  And members of other targeted groups often don't
> even get a chance at a decent job.  Is it any wonder then, that governments
> sometime have to resort to policies like affirmative action, etc..
>
> Don't get me wrong, though.  I enjoy a good laugh and a joke as much as the
> next person.  However they don't have to be at the expense of an
> identifiable group.  Self-deprecating jokes can be just as humourous.
> Perhaps even more so.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> "A dirty joke is a sort of mental rebellion."
>      George Orwell
>
+ - Lnaguage Police (formerly: Toronto) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andy Kozmas comment on the Quebec Language Police are exactly
waht we have to fight.  It is this that should be clear will
not be tolerated by the USA in any way form or shape.

It is this type of non-sense that causes people to fall
off the edge. Language police anywhere are idiotic.
Language is something to develop over time and usage.
To "police" they type of signs not only is dumb but must
be xpensive. Perhaps the French(Quebec) have more money
that they have taken away from the people to attempt
enforcement of a stupid law.

I do however agree that there should be an official language
for both Canada and the USA. If a state or province has a majority
then if the citizens want they could have local official language
{meaning only that they can communicate to the government in that]


Being that Canada by and lanrge is English speaking the Feds
need to continue their language as such. Ditto in the USA.
+ - Re: Lnaguage Police (formerly: Toronto) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

> It is this type of non-sense that causes people to fall
> off the edge. Language police anywhere are idiotic.
>[...]
> I do however agree that there should be an official language
> for both Canada and the USA.
 That is, language police is OK if and only if it is to enforce the
English language, I see ;-(...

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Himes Tojasok (Painted Eggs) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 13:05 16/08/96 EDT, Mark Humphreys wrote:
>For egg lovers:
>
>I am (not only godless and a gay-lover) but also a very accomplished egg
>painter.  I specialize in the wax-resist methods of Eastern Europe (Ukraine,
>Lithuania, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania).  I have even been published in Ukraine
,
>Asia and N. America.  I plan to go to Hungary, Slovakia and Romania next year
>*possibly* to search for intricate and/or colorful eggs.

Hi, Mark and other Listmembers!

Well, I am interested to see your posting, because I did not realize that
painted Easter eggs were the custom in Hungary and other countries of
Central Europe - I thought it was strictly a Ukrainian and/or Russian
custom. Do the designs in Hungary differ from those in the Ukraine and Russia?

Do you know where the custom of painting the eggs originated? Did it
originate elsewhere and then spread to Hungary? How do the Romanian eggs
differ from the Hungarian ones?

Any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated. One of my good
friends here in Shelburne does Ukrainian-style eggs, and I really find her
creations quite fascinating and would like to know more about the tradition.

Ko:szo:no:m,

Johanne
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:46 PM 8/18/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>The fact is that many many Anglos have difficulty with foreign
>languages.

        Well, there are some who do have difficulty and some who don't. Of
course, this is true about practically any nation. However, there are
countries where, for one reason or other, a very large percentage of the
population speaks one or two foreign languages. I can think of the
Scandinavian countries, for example. Or, the Netherlands. And while we are
making this kind of generalization, one could safely say that the French, on
the whole, don't speak foreign languages and if they do, not well. (Although
even that is changing.)

        I can think, off the top of my head, at least two or three reasons
(maybe more) why in one country the learning of foreign languages seems to
be more successful than in some others.

        (1) Perhaps the most important: successful language teaching in
schools. My experience in Hungary with foreign languages, up to 1956, was
abysmal. It didn't matter whether you were learning German, French, or
Russian, you were unable to mutter out a decent sentence in any of these
languages. And apparently the situation wasn't any better in the 1970s. I
just spent a wonderful afternoon with a friend I met on the Internet, HIX
actually. She is younger than I am and therefore she was studying Russian in
the 1970s. I asked her whether the teaching of Russian was any better twenty
years after my high school days. The answer was: no. In fact, the Russian I
know I learned in Canada and not in Hungary. In the last ten or fifteen
years, for one reason or other, the teaching of foreign languages in Hungary
became much better and one can see the results. I am always very impressed
how many people, living either in Hungary or in some West European country,
are able to write quite idiomatic English. I am actually fascinated with the
problems of learning foreign languages and I am still sorry that I haven't
had the opportunity to try my hand on teaching a language. (Well, I did
once. I helped a Yale graduate student to learn enough Hungarian to enter
the Debrecen summer language school.)

        (2) Learning a language in school is not enough. There must be an
opportunity to use this language. Otherwise, it seems to be an exercise in
futility. And that takes us to Hungary in the 1950s and 1970s, or the United
States today. Why should you spend hours and hours learning a foreign
language if you have no, or very rare, opportunity to use it. If there is no
real necessity. The Americans are laboring under two disadvantages: (a) they
don't really have the opportunity to use the language and (b) even if they
go to Europe there are always people who know English much better than they
know French, German, or Spanish.  And it is the most normal thing to take
the easy way out! To fall back on your mother tongue. In that respect the
English-speaking Americans are at a real disadvantage. Today's the lingua
franca is English. One has to go out of his way to use any other.

        (3) Today in Europe it is relatively easy to be exposed to languages
other than your own. First of all, there is TV. In Hungary today you can
listen to English and German TV programs all day long if you wish. And we
all know from experience there is nothing like watching TV or going to the
movies while we were learning English. OK, you didn't understand a great
deal of it but from watching the sitcom or the movie you could figure out
pretty well what was going on and managed to learn God knows how many new
words in the process. I read an article in a Hungarian paper which related
the story of a four- or five-year-old little girl, who, after watching the
children's programs on the English-language channel, began speaking in
English. Since her parents didn't know English, she was taken to a professor
of English who ascertained that the little girl actually can answer
questions, tell stories, and so on, in English, just by watching the comics
in English. In the United States the only such opportunity is the
Spanish-language TV stations.

        (4) And there is individual talent and temperament. Shy people,
people who hate making mistakes, people who are not musical, people who
don't like to mimic are at a disadvantage. They will be most likely have
difficulties learning a new language. Or, those with a cultural superiority
complex--see, for example, the French.

        (5) People like the Danes, the Dutch, the Finns, the Swedes, the
Norwegians, in brief, people who speak languages which few people speak must
be able to speak languages with a wider appeal. These people often use
English or German even during their college years because some of the
textbooks (for example, in Economics) are not even translated into their
mother tongues. Moreover, a member of a small nation will know very well
that in order to suceed in life he/she must speak one or two other languages
in addition to his/her own. This psychological, and often practical,
consideration is also important. If you know--as a Hungarian knows--that in
order to be even a waiter or a salesperson in a downtown store in Budapest,
one must be able to speak at least English and German, otherwise he/she will
not get a job, surely the incentive is a greater than in the United States
where learning another language may not have any practical application
whatsoever.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:06 17/08/96 -0400, Joe Szalai opined:

>At 07:31 PM 8/16/96 -0700, Jozsi Hill wrote:
>
>>Joe, you are whistling out of the far left corner of your mouth!!!
>>Why don't you try to go to any civilized country and try to become a
>>citizen and take the oath in your native tounge. Or just for the fun of
>>it why don't you try sneak into Mexico from the South. Illegally!! See
>>what that will get you. Wake up, look reality in the eye!! This country
>>is MUCH TOO LENIENT AGAINST THE ILLEGALS!!!
>
>>From a native American point of view, we're all ILLEGALS!  Perhaps we should
>all be shipped back to Europe, Asia, and Africa.  Would you like that, Jozsi?

Joe, you know very well that the "native Americans" (oh, how I hate that
phrase!) are no more aboriginals than we are. Aboriginals are supposed to be
the people who have lived in a particular place "from the beginning." And
all of us here in North America immigrated from somewhere else - it's just
that some of us came here a little bit earlier than others, that's all!
>
>And I don't give a damn what Mexico does with it's illegal immigrants.  I
>always assumed that the US was better than Mexico.  Now, you want the US to
>have the same procedures that Mexico has.  What a shame.  Why not spend your
>energy on bringing Mexico up to the same high standard that the US has?

That wasn't his point. He just said you wouldn't get the same privileges in
Mexico that you would in the States if you were an illegal immigrant. And
that doesn't mean the U.S. standards are higher, either. Maybe the Mexicans
have higher standards vis-a-vis immigration than the U.S. does.

>And why is it that under the North American Free Trade Act, goods can freely
>move from country to country but not people?  Are goods more precious than
>people?

No, the reason the goods can flow freely is that they are not as valuable as
people. And one of the major rationales behind the NAFTA was that it might
encourage greater prosperity in Mexico and thus create decent jobs and thus
more Mexicans might stay at home rather than illegally immigrating into the U.S
.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>"When Americans look out on the world, they see nothing but dark and
>menacing strangers who appear to have no sense of rhythm at all, nor any
>respect or affection for white people; and white Americans really do not
>know what to make of all this, except to increase the defense budget."
>                James Baldwin

He's wrong there - for most of this century Americans have seen the major
adversaries as Germans or Russians, neither of whom are particularly dark.
Sounds like he's heavily into conspiracy theories! I wonder where he came up
with that line about "no sense of rhythm"? Do you think he meant as opposed
to the native blacks, whom whites traditionally credited with having a good
sense of rhythm? :-)
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Identities in XV (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:51 PM 8/18/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>Dear Mr. Danube:
>
>Being that you were on the Hungarian Discussion Group, I have apparently
>incorrectly assumed that you were of Hungarian origin and therefore
>Anglicized your name from DUNA which is the Hungarian name for Danube.

Whether one has chosen to Anglicize their name or not; it is still
considered to be polite and normal practice to address them, as they
identify themselves.  As such, I still maintain that your salutation to him
was way out line and quoting your famous last words "was uncalled for and a
low blow".  An apology, rather than a lame explanation would be more in line
with rational thinking and action.

Further to this; grade school kids are well aware of the meaning of assume.
Perhaps you ought to englighten yourself as well...

Regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Faludy has a poem about Lukacs. I supply the
ending of the Hungarian version.         (Sz. Zoli)

Valamely nagyobb
helysegben tartod a felolvasast.
A diszhelyen Rakosi tronol; laba
nem er a foldig, bar nyakunk helyett
a levegot tapossa; tole balra
az oszulo szajviz-reklam, Gero,
Barcelona hohera; a gonosz
Andics, par oldal tokaszalonnaval
dereka korul es csocse alatt;
a hitvany es kegyetlen Farkas; hatul
az avosok kozt-
ez Magyarorszag szellemi elitje!
A hallgatosag tobbi resze alszik;
ismernek mar. Te pedig szonokolsz
a fetisizalt tokerol; hogy Nietzsche
nagy naci volt; hogy Flaubert a puccsista
Boulanger-val ebedelt (borzalom!);
hogy Szent Ferenc azert hirdette meg
a szegenyseget, nehogy a jobbagyok
dusgazdag feudalis uraikra lazadjanak - feltarthatatlanul
hanyod marxista bukfenceidet
s a tortenelmi szaltokat, mig vegre
elkeszulsz. Taps. A hallgatosag ebred.
Te meg csikos nadragocskadban gyorsan
a partpaholy ele szaladsz - hadd lassak,
hogy furge vagy meg! - es melyen meghajtod
talpnyalastol elgorbult hatadat.
+ - Re: Identities in XV - Respect - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Aug 18,  8:36pm, Aniko Dunford wrote:
> Subject: Re: Identities in XV
> At 05:51 PM 8/18/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
> >Dear Mr. Danube:
> >
> >Being that you were on the Hungarian Discussion Group, I have apparently
> >incorrectly assumed that you were of Hungarian origin and therefore
> >Anglicized your name from DUNA which is the Hungarian name for Danube.
>
> Whether one has chosen to Anglicize their name or not; it is still
> considered to be polite and normal practice to address them, as they
> identify themselves.  As such, I still maintain that your salutation to him
> was way out line and quoting your famous last words "was uncalled for and a
> low blow".  An apology, rather than a lame explanation would be more in line
> with rational thinking and action.
>
> Further to this; grade school kids are well aware of the meaning of assume.
> Perhaps you ought to englighten yourself as well...
>
> Regards,
> Aniko
>-- End of excerpt from Aniko Dunford

    Dear Aniko,

       I didn't intend to respond to this, becasuse these things have
    a tendency of going on and on.
       Thanks a lot for explaining,  calmly,  that assuming is rarely
    accepted as an excuse.
       And thanks for coming to (my) the defense.
       Regards,
                Amos
+ - Budapest condo for sale; interested? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

84 m2, 2-bedroom condo overlooking the Buda Hills in a beautiful,
small apartment house of Budapest' s exclusive Rozsadomb disrict
(Nagybanyai Street) is for immediate sale. It features telephone,
garage, hardwood floor and gas central heating. Easy access to the
city: downtown is just a short, convenient 15-minute ride by public
transportation. If you are interested, please send an E-mail to
.
+ - God's Tenure (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I found this little item from the Santa Fe N.M. Community College:

WHY GOD NEVER RECEIVED TENURE AT ANY UNIVERSITY

1- He had only one major publication.
2- It was in Hebrew.
3- It had no reference.
4- It was not published in a referred journal.
5- Some doubt He wrote it himself.
6- He may have created the world, but what has He done since?
7- The scientific community cannot duplicate His results.
8- He never got permission from the ethics board to use human subjects.
9- When one experiment went awry, He tried to cover it up by drowning the
subjects.
10- He rarely came to class and just told students, //Read the Book.//
11- Some say He had His son teach the class.
12- He expelled his first two students.
13- His office ours were irregular and sometimes held on a mountaintop.
14- Although there were only 10 requirements, most students failed.


Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Jokes? (was Re: Moral) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:28 AM 8/18/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>You're right, Gabor.  However, those jokes can still be called racist,
>sexist, or what have you.

I agree. But the libertarian in me feels, that I would rather hear people
telling racist, etc. jokes than having some kind of joke-police regulate
their content.

>  Besides, I'd like to know why some people feel a
>need to tell jokes at the expense of some identifiable group.  I guess they
>get some satisfaction from knowing that, despite their own problems, at
>least they're not members of the targeted group.

Generally, these jokes exaggerate existing stereotypes. And in many cases
they are funny.

>What concerns me about these jokes is that they bolster and strengthen
>stereotypes about others.  And after one's managed to stereotype a group of
>people, discrimination becomes a virtue.  I mean, after all, if one hears
>enough jokes(?) about how gossipy or dumb women are, why pay them the same
>wage as the 'smarter' man?  And members of other targeted groups often don't
>even get a chance at a decent job.  Is it any wonder then, that governments
>sometime have to resort to policies like affirmative action, etc..

The following statement is only based on instinct: I think that jokes in
good taste that exaggerate stereotypes do not harm anyone.

>Don't get me wrong, though.  I enjoy a good laugh and a joke as much as the
>next person.  However they don't have to be at the expense of an
>identifiable group.  Self-deprecating jokes can be just as humourous.
>Perhaps even more so.

I think that many "objectionable" jokes start out this way, then they get
into the hands of the "enemy".

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: English-Only Bill in the USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:50 AM 8/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

> And the print media has gotten downright obsessive in recent years
>about dumbing down its content to reach more readers. It's a race to the
>bottom of a very deep, dark barrel at this point. Marshall McLuhan was
>right to be so apprehensive about the impacts of new communication
>technologies on society.

Right, just compare USA Today with The New York Times or WSJ.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: English language and other goodies - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:08 AM 8/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:
>
>>And Sam, if you're ever fortunate enough to be granted an audience with
>me I
>>will fully expect you to get on your knees and kiss the ring that used to
>be
>>on my finger.  It's now on another appendage (no, not my funny bone!) but
>>I'll explain later.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>You seem to forget, mon ami -- I am a Protestant! No ring kissing of any
>kind for us, no matter where it's located.
>Sam Stowe

Oh, you're a Protestant, eh!  Well then, you know what the Pope wants YOU to
kiss.

Joe Szalai

In love, there is always one who kisses and one who offers the cheek.
              French Proverb.

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