At 07:12 PM 11/7/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

<snip>
>Here we go again. What can politicians do to reduce poverty? Tax those who
>have more and give it to those who have less. This just does not work.
>
>In any case, I would not trust a politician to care for my cat (if I had
>one), so why trust them with solving the poverty problem?

You're right Gabor.  Maybe direct action at the street level by the poor and
their supporters might solve the problem better and faster then politicians
could ever dream about.

Joe Szalai

In article >, Charles Mikecz
Vamossy > writes:

>
>Although I don't agree with your premise that capitalism, or better
called,
>free market economy needs to be replaced with another system, still, I
would
>be interested in learning what would you replace it with and how would
you
>go about doing it?
>
>Charlie Vamossy
>
>

Charlie, you really don't want to subject yourself and the rest of us to
her reply. Honest. You don't. Remember -- I warned you.
Sam Stowe

"Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
-- Bob Dole's last words

In article >, Barnabas Bozoki
> writes:

>On  7 Nov 1996 01:51:14 -0600  Andras Kornai wrote:
>
>> Anyway, to say that poverty is the root cause of society's ills is like
>> blaming a bad crop of oranges on Hungarian weather: yes it is true that
>> if the climate was better one could grow oranges in Hungary, but
perhaps
>> switching to a more suitable crop is more relevant than blaming the
>weather.
>> Society is a device to make life less brutish and short, and its
problems
>> are no more caused by poverty than the problems of a hospital are
caused
>> by the fact that people are not perfectly healthy.

Barna says:
>I don't exactly understand what he is trying to say here, but if he
>implies that reduced poverty will not improve society he is dead wrong.

This is definitely not the message that I got from reading Andras' post. I
think he may be arguing that we need to give a little more consideration
to the cause-and-effect linkage, if any, between poverty and society.

>Poverty and social conditions can be improved and the result immediately
>observable.  Social conditions are not uncontrollable like the weather.

The surety of your statements is not backed up by the historic record. The
results of social engineering are almost always unpredictable and accurate
empirical observation of those results is a difficult and time-consuming
task. Andras' hospital metaphor might be an apt one. Perhaps our attempts
to alleviate poverty ought to be governed by the same principle which
guides doctors -- first do no harm.
Sam Stowe




"Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
-- Bob Dole's last words

Liviu Iordache wrote:
>I was curious to know if you ever suspected nationalistic
>bias in their teachings. What's  wrong with that?

The reason I mentioned *the influence of my forebears* was for this
very reason. In my original posting I also openly asked: *Am I wrong
in thinking such and such...*. Presumably your answer would be: *Yes,
you are wrong in thinking such and such because...*, but, instead, you
seem to prefer to bring Hungarian misdemeanours to my attention for some
reason. Please get this: my official nationality is *British* and my first
language is English, but my perceptions and preferred nationality is
internationality, not British, not Hungarian, not anything like that.
For the last time, I hope you understand this and eschew the tedious
repartee.

>>Getting shirty and replying with tit for tat point scoring is not
>>terribly productive!

>Why do I get the feeling that you are not practicing what you are
>actually preaching?

Because you're misunderstanding the spirit of my original request and
insisting on treating our exchange as some kind of Romanian v Hungarian
contest. Granted, I'm asking about Romanian perceptions concerning
their own identity and have referred to policies towards other ethnics
within Romania's borders. From someone with my name this might seem to
be part of a pro-Hungarian/anti-Romanian agenda, but it isn't. And yes,
I'm prepared to question Romanian myths and wishful thinking, as well
as being open to learning from Romanians (such as yourself) but please
note that I also do such questioning with myself and others all the time
on zillions of other subjects much more vociferously. You really need
not be so defensive.

>>...but you don't say anything about ancient surviving dialects, etc.

>And there is a very good reason for that: the language spoken in
>present-day Romania and Moldova is,  and probably always was,
>characterized by a surprisingly low linguistic differentiation; it has
>no dialects.

Hmmm, mea culpa, I also meant the survival of other languages that
were used in those territories throughout history. Could they have
completely disappeared? But no Romanian dialects at all?? I find it
difficult to believe this. Surely there must be some variation from
one part of the country to the other? Are you saying that village
peasants used the same vernacular as the royal family? My experiences
of other country I've lived in all have very rich examples of
linguistic variation and dialects. Why should Romania be uniquely
different in this respect?

>Starting with the 6th century, Greek was the predominant language of
>the Byzantine Empire.

I know that Greek was the predominant language of adminstrators in
the Roman Empires and that Greek was an important part of Roman education,
but I didn't think it was the vernacular of the populace of the whole
Byzantine Empire (indigenously Greek speaking areas, of course, but the
whole empire? Of course the size and circumstances of that empire varied
enormously throughout its life).

>Romanian language shares common 8th century
>Latin innovations with some northern and southern Italian dialects.
>Therefore, while it is possible that Romanians' ancestors were, prior
>to the Slavic invasions, among the so-called Rhomaioi (the East Roman
>subjects), it is hard to believe that post-6th century Byzantium
>influence over the Romanian cradle, wherever that cradle located, was
>linguistically significant.

Hmmm...

>>>>It is interesting that long periods of Russian, Lithuanian, Turkish
>>>>Ottoman and Hungarian control of territories now known as Romania did
>>>>not snuff out the usage and development of that Latin offshoot.

>>>It most certainly did. Plenty of post-10th century East Slavic and
>>>Magyar loan-words are present in Romanian.

>>Huh? So what's wrong with loan words?

>Nothing, I did not say that something is good or  wrong. However, mea
>culpa, I read your "to snuff out" more like "to affect," instead of
>"to extinguish."

Culpability noted...

>>AFAIK Moldavia and Wallachia gained semi-independence
>>in 1829, united in 1859 (as Romania),

>Actually, Moldavia and Wallachia united as "United Principalities,"
>not Romania.

So it was internationally recognised as Romania in 1878?

>> So it looks like Romanian became *official* to English speakers in 1859.

>I think you mean "Romania," the country's name, not the ethnicon
>Romanian.

Well, it was an answer to your question: *What does Romanian mean in
English?*, taking Romanian to mean the language in an internationally
recognised country called Romania.

>>This is uninformed speculation since I have yet to see any English period
>>books that refer to the area. Perhaps you've seen such period books?

>Wasn't this about how Romanians always called themselves?

No, it was about your question: *What does Romanian mean in English?*,
not about what Romanian meant in Romanian. As I stated, what you say
were always Romanians, were presumably known as Vlachs, Moldavians,
or whatever, before an internationally recognised country of Romania
existed.

>I doubt 18th century English books are of any relevance as much
>time as there are plenty of earlier writings which attested they
>used the ethnicon Romanian.

Its only relevance is in the context of your question, viz: *What does
Romanian mean in English?*. You have already stated in an earlier
posting that the peoples of Wallachia and Moldavia considered
themselves of the one country *Tara Ruma~neasca* and that they have
always considered themselves Romanian. That is interesting, thank
you. That English speakers might not have used the term *Romanian*
before international recognition of Romania, is hardly a question
of *relevance*. Does this mean that the English names for Deutschland
(as Germany) and the Deutsch language (as German), or other peoples'
insistence on referring to Magyars as anything but Magyar, are also
irrelevant? These terms are relevant to the people who use them, if
nobody else. However, I can understand the chagrin of Romanians who
claim that Romania, the Romanian people and the Romanian language
has existed for for a millenium, or more, without being recognised
or appreciated, as simply international ignorance, and thus irrelevant
(or is this too harsh?)

>>>You have mentioned several times Ceausescu-era literature. I thought
>>>you read in that literature the claim  that the Saxons called
>>>themselves Romanians.

>>Not really, but didn't Ceaucescu's Romanian nation-state insist on
>>calling all these people Romanian with a stealthy policy to diminish
>>and eventually destroy *non-Romanian* cultures and languages

>What that has to do with how the Saxons called themselves?

I'm afraid that you are soliloquizing! Why single out Saxons? I didn't.
The original question, which was, anyway, somewhat rhetorical, asked
whether Szeklers, Magyars, Saxons, etc, identified themselves as
Romanians before international recognition of Romania. You then
*thought* that I read in Ceaucescu era literature that Saxons called
themselves Romanian. I replied *Not really*. I'll be more explicit
this time: of course they didn't. Naturally, once the country called
Romania came into being, ethnics within the borders of Romania
became the citizens of that country (whether they liked it or not)
and would have had ID papers, etc, identifying them as such, just
as Mexicans became US citizens (if they were indeed initially
granted citizenship) when such areas as Texas and California were
annexed, with zillions of similar examples world-wide.

>There was a
>big difference between the officially preached policy and the one
>actually practiced; published literature didn't reflect the  practiced
>policy. Saxons were considered members of the German "national
>minority," but also Romanian citizens, and the preservation of their
>national-cultural identity was guaranteed by the Romanian state.

Since my posting was not about promoting ethnic rivalries I'll resist
the temptation to make comparisons with the Hungarian experience in
Romania. ;-)

Regards

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 01:08 PM 10/27/96 -0700, Louis Elteto wrote:
>
>[Text snipped]
>
>        Here is another example of the strength and influence of the
>Hungarian nobility, especially the lower nobility in this particular case.
>The Polish development was very similar to the Hungarian one, by the way.
>They even borrowed Hungarian words like "rakosz = rebellion" from Rakos, a
>place name, where the nobility's leaders often got together to make
>decision, like in 1505 when it was announced that no foreigner can be king
>of Hungary. (Apparently behind the decision stood, of course, Janos
>Szapolyai, the voevode/vajda of Transylvania, who had the most to gain from
>such decision.)
>
>[Text snipped]
>
>        Eva Balogh

Very interesting. I have a question. Could you please give me the meaning of
the word "vajda"? I the area where I worked in Hungary there was a village
called "Krasnokvajda", which was near the border with Slovakia. Several of us
had considerable (speculative) discussion of the meaning of this name. If
possible, could you offer a translation of the village name, too?

Thank you. And thank you, too, for your continuing insights into Hungarian
history, both recent and not so recent.

David Hinds

I would like to ask members of the list for their ideas and comments on
Hungarian national identity and nationalism since 1989.  I am particularly
interested in the contradictions between the re-assertion of Hungarian
independence (breaking away from Soviet influence) and wholehearted entry
into the global capitalist economy, bringing American 'advisors', West
German 'partnerships', and the plethora of American and international
companies advertising and setting up business in Hungary.  My other area of
interest is the media - do those of you who have close contact with Hungary
notice changes in the media (television, film, newspapers, magazines etc.)?
How would you describe those changes?  Now that foreign companies own many
of Hungary's newspapers, magazines and soon, TV stations, are the Hungarian
media any less "Hungarian"?

Any thoughts, comments, anecdotes, insults, references to books or
articles, or offers of money would be welcome.  (ok, maybe not insults.)

David Whittle >

Everyone tells me I wasting my time, but I
think discussions are useful for

1. me (looking after number one!) as I have a chance
   to re-think my own ideas;

2. To expose other people to points of views they possibly
   had no chance to contemplate before.


Passing ideas and information cannot be all bad.

At 12:21 AM 11/8/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>>Here we go again. What can politicians do to reduce poverty? Tax those who
>>have more and give it to those who have less. This just does not work.
>>
>>In any case, I would not trust a politician to care for my cat (if I had
>>one), so why trust them with solving the poverty problem?
>
>You're right Gabor.  Maybe direct action at the street level by the poor and
>their supporters might solve the problem better and faster then politicians
>could ever dream about.

It's been tried. Doesn't work. Do you have any proven or new solutions?

Gabor D. Farkas

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>I don't know, maybe my English again. Is this a joke or what? If it is
>(at least I assume) you found a suitable subject to joke with, didn't
you?
>
>J.Zs

It's not your English, it's your childish attitude. And this is no joke.
The idea of prosecuting men in their 70s and 80s for war crimes makes many
people uncomfortable because prison is no place for an old man. They're
just as uncomfortable, however, with letting them go. Sentencing elderly
war criminals to work with international relief organizations is the
equivalent of what we call "community service" here in the United States.
Courts do it all the time. In the case of elderly war criminals, I think
it would meet the needs of justice and force these men to do something
positive in their final years to atone for their crimes as younger men. We
wouldn't have been brought to this moral impass if the Allies had done
their homework right after the war, caught these guys and either stuck
them in prison for a long time or strung them up by the neck.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- How's that big, fat chip on your shoulder doing?

"Moose...Indian...Whatever..."
-- Bob Dole's last words

>
> I would love to see a better system. I consider it obscene that CEO's,
> baseball and movie stars pocket millions dollars, while millions of people
> can not feed their kids. Unfortunately I don't know anybody who can propose
> and implement a viable alternative. So until we find the Messiah who can
> change the system, I think we should do what we can to embarrass our
> politicians to do what they can to reduce poverty.
>
> Barna Bozoki


You cannot emparrass the politicians much more, than they already
are. They haven't got the power to execute their policies,
even if they were elected for those and not for their pretty
smile. E.g. Clinton was elected to perform  a health reform
(last time) - no chance. All politicians promise all the things
you ask for - and some of them even means it, you never know.
However - they don't have the power. They only manage to be
true to some of their promises, if that promise happen to
coincide with the immediate interest of the economic power-brokers.

Don't wait for Messiah, try to think through for yourself
what the  possible options may be. try to make other
people realise the need for critique of the present system
and to change for a democratically controlled one (in
my opinion) - and discuss it. Messiahs are always bad
news, you don't want faith in an idea, you want rationale.

At 09:54 AM 11/8/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Everyone tells me I wasting my time, but I
>think discussions are useful for
>
>1. me (looking after number one!) as I have a chance
>   to re-think my own ideas;
>
>2. To expose other people to points of views they possibly
>   had no chance to contemplate before.
>
>
>Passing ideas and information cannot be all bad.
>

>
>

Eva, for once I agree with you completely.  I find the discussions on the
Internet, both on Hungarian related lists as well as others very
interesting.  While I may not agree with every opinion expressed, and I am
offended and saddened  by the sometimes  intolerant and personally insulting
postings, still, I find participation to be a learning experience.

Charlie Vamossy

On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Eva Durant wrote:

[...]
> Don't wait for Messiah, try to think through for yourself
> what the  possible options may be. try to make other
> people realise the need for critique of the present system
> and to change for a democratically controlled one (in
> my opinion) - and discuss it. Messiahs are always bad
> news, you don't want faith in an idea, you want rationale.

The reference to Messiah was a bad choice of word. I am not looking for
faith, I am looking a realistic, reasonable plan and a leader who can unite
the people to work for the implementation of the plan.

If everybody is trying to solve the problems on his or her own way no
significant major change will occur. This suits the ruling class just
fine. They can deal with small groups of rebels, making them look
ridiculous, isolate them and turn them against each other.

This is why only in a local level I can see some possibilities for
individual initiatives. As I wrote it before, there are documented
examples, where local politicians achieved some social improvements in the
"Nyirseg" during the Kadar regime. Apparently neither Sam Stowe or Eva
Durant believe in this approach (for different reasons) so let me try again
with an other Hungarian example from the pre World War period .

Rakospalota and Ujpest are both working class suburbs of Budapest. The
majority of people in Rakospalota worked for the state owned railway company
MAV. MAV provided job security and decent wages and built decent affordable
homes for the workers.  Consequently the life of a working poor was
significantly better in Rakospalota than in Ujpest. The communists called
these workers "worker aristocrats".

It was no accident that MAV moved its factory to Rakospalota. It was good
political lobbying by a smart major and a sympathetic politician, landowner
Count Istvan Karolyi, who paved the way of moving the MAV factory there in
1901. [see Buza Peter: Palotai tegnapok, Rakospalota, 1995]

I see a big differences between the attitude toward social issues among the
present day local Canadian politicians also. Sometimes they can make a small
difference in the life of the poor. We should push them to do so. I agree
that the public have no or very small influence on the way the national
government is run.

Barna Bozoki

Barnabas Bozoki wrote:
>

>
> But this is history now, the only reason to think about it, is not to
> repeat it. Antall reminded people of this world, and this is why his party
> lost.
>
> Barna Bozoki


"Horthy korszak"

unemployed intellectuals           3
Proletariat                       25.1
Domestic help                     3.7
temporary workers                  1
agrarian servants                 17.7
others                                             5

total                             55.5%

Take in account:
1  How many the 44.5% left the country,
2  The demographic growth of the 55.55 in the 40 years of communism



The 70% majority of the MSNP SZDSZ in the Parliament is a fact that
points just to that : HUNGARY HAS A POPULATION OF LEFTIST ORIENTATION
DESCENDANT FROM THE PROLETARIAN AND AGRO SERVANTS.

Albert Albu

>Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 60 sor )

>As a child of
>divorced parents (and as a divorced and remarried father) I can understand
>how one may accept two separate families as one's own and somehow learn to
>exist with the anomaly.  As a native Hungarian citizen who never gave up his
>citizenship and as a refugee to the US who was grateful for the welcome and
>the chance to establish an existence at a time when Hungary considered me a
>fugitive and probably a criminal for taking part ion the revolution and for
>leaving the country illegally, I have learned to live with the fact that I
>am indeed a citizen of two countries.

Charlie

Your parents got divorced and you did too, meaning you only have one legal
wife (I presume :)), and two legal parents. So how do you compare that to
allegiance to two countries? It's like being a bigamist. I am also a refugee
and am a US citizen. At times while living in Budapest I have thought of
applying for my Hungarian passport, but could see no advantage in it except
as property owner (no offense!) and maybe traveling to Cuba, etc. I was also
grateful to the US for allowing me and my parents a refuge. Believe me, I do
not agree with most of the politics here, but as a person who has resided in
many countries in Europe, east and west, and for 40 years here, I still feel
more *American* (OK maybe New York isn't *America*). Though who knows, I
might change my mind when I return to Hugary for a visit!

Anna

Back for the weekend, before departing on Sunday. I had a friend
unload some of the messages while I was gone, but read only a few although,
I will try to comment on some of them later in Dec.

For the time being, I just would like to add a Ft worth of opinions to some
of the poverty, economic, etc., discussions.

It looks like that a lot folks do not comprehend the changes in the work
place and what is needed either in Hungary or for that matter anywhere else,
to cope with these changes.
So lets start first with a few facts:

1) In the early 1900s 85% of the Us work force was in agriculture, today
that percentage is reduced to 3% of the workforce. In 1950, 73% of US
emplyees worked in production or manufacturing. Now less than 15% do. The US
Department of Labor estimates that by the year 2000, at least 44% of all
workers will be in data services. Currently 66% of US emplyees work in the
services sector, where knowledge is the most imprtant product. It is also
estimated that by 2000 only one sixth to one eighth of the workforce will be
in manufacturing or moving goods.

2) In the US in 1991, the first time ever, companies spent more money on
computing and communications gear than the combined funds spent on
industrial, mining,farm and construction equipment.

3) Every year more and more people will be self-employed. Many will work
temporary or part time, sometimes beacuse that is the way they want it,
sometimes because that is all that is available. In the early XXI century,
less than half of the world's workforce will hold full time conventional
jobs. Currently in the US less than one employee is with the same employer
for less than a year and two out of three less than five years.

4) The first practical industrial robot was introduced in the 1960s. By
1982, there were
approximately 32,000 robots used in the US. Today there are more than
20,000,000.
Computer power is now 8000 times less expensive than it was 30 years ago.

5) During the 1980 decade a total of 230 companies (46%) disappeared from
the Fortune 500. And of the 100 largest companies existence in the US in
1900 only 16 are in existence today.

(Most of the above is from New Work Habits for a Radically Changing World by
Price Prichett.)

So the major problem of everyone, whether individual worker or managment is
to "manage change" as early as possible, otherwise they are not going to
survive. I have mentioned this once before, but in Columbus OH there was the
worlds largest Buggy whip factory in the early 1900s. It was a modern
factory with good labor relations for the times. Naturally, it did not
survive the change from buggies to automobiles. The reason for its failure
was not worker exploitation, not greedy management, not capitalism but change.
(I know that some folks would plead for government subsidy and price support
for the whips, maybe even government storage for strategic or worker welfare
purposes, etc, but
that does not really work in any case. Just substitute sliderule for
buggywhip for another analogy). Today, the change is much faster, we can
perform at NUCON a stress analysis of a major piping system in days versus
months when we did it with handheld calculators. If I would insist, that we
use the old method, we would not be competitive with anyone who uses the new
methodology.

Whenever, I visit Hungarian companies, there are an order of magnitude more
secretaries, two order of magnitude more drivers compared to that in the US,
where most secretaries have disappeared and are often "prestige" workers as
are the drivers. If you want coffee, go to the coffee machine and get your
coffee, do not use a "secretary" to fix it and get it for you. At the same
time, every employee's cost is a part of the product or service cost and if
your costs are not competitive with the marketplace the business will fail.

So to survive, one has to be aware whether a worker or a manager of what
changes are coming and be able to cope with the coming change. If you are
waiting on Big Brother to tell you when and what change is coming you are
dreaming, generally, they are the least competent in managing change. Just
because I could hoe an acre better and faster than anyone, when competing
with a plough, my hoeing ability counts for nought. I could request that
ploughs be outlawed, and if they were, I would eventually starve to death.

One way I can assure my survival is to learn everyday what can be done
better and faster with less effort. The educational systems, unfortunately,
are also slow in comprehending the change and in most cases it is up to
individual effort to assure that he or she maintains individual contributing
values to whatever endevour he or she is involved in.
Falling behind and than complaining or solely looking for someone else to
blame, will not bring solution to the problem.

As Jerry Garcia of The Grateful Dead said: "Somebody has to do something,
and it's incredibly pathetic that it has to be us."

You have two days for the rocks flying, then I'm gone again.

Regards,Jeliko

At 03:18 AM 11/8/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

<snip>
>>You're right Gabor.  Maybe direct action at the street level by the poor and
>>their supporters might solve the problem better and faster then politicians
>>could ever dream about.
>
>It's been tried. Doesn't work. Do you have any proven or new solutions?

Do you?  How would you solve poverty?  Or is that not a concern of yours?
By the way, I won't be surprised if in your answer you'll blame the poor for
their poverty.  Blaming the victim is still somewhat in vogue and I've not
known you to be unfashionable.

Joe Szalai

"The poverty of our century is unlike that of any other. It is not, as
poverty was before, the result of natural scarcity, but of a set of
priorities imposed upon the rest of the world by the rich. Consequently, the
modern poor are not pitied . . . but written off as trash. The
twentieth-century consumer economy has produced the first culture for which
a beggar is a reminder of nothing."
               John Berger

Sorry about some misunderstandings. I'm new at the Internet, maybe
that's why I've pushed a wrong button and my raw text with spelling
error went out.

But as a newcommer around Oct 23 I've recognised, what it was decades
earlier in Hungary, that the press in Hungary were talking about faraway
countries a lot and poor information was found there about our
very nearest and hot problems.

I just wanted to say /for those who didn't know/ that officially some 2
years ago 1956 was declared in Hungary as a war period.

Of course persons should be treated equally no matter what side there
were. Maybe there were more people on one side than in the other
one around the 50-s. The present prime minister is known to be
active on the left side, the present president refused to be audited.

As you probably know nowdays the POFOSZ /the society for
political prisonners in Hungary/ refused to build up a COMMON monument
for both siders of 1956 in the Freedom square in Budapest /a square
sorrounded by the TV center, the central Bank and the American Embassy,
and a russian monument was created /and still there -without the stars/.

So the matter is still an issue, and maybe if the discussion were not
about war criminals at this time /Oct 23/ I wouldn't bring up the
subject. Sorry but I don't know what is the period /from - till dates/
of this war declaration I've mentioned above.

Kind Regards,

Nandor BALOGH

On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> At 02:46 PM 11/6/96 +0000, Dr. Nandor Balogh brings up the 1956 revolution
> in this thread.  I would like to ask in this context a question of those who
> participated in the revolution (I was too young and lived in Romania):
>
> In the book Cry Hungary (that was mentioned recently on this list) there is
> a series of photographs, showing the summary execution of a group of
> AVO-members by freedom fighters. Those executed were  apparently unarmed,
> they  look very young, probably conscripts. Does anybody know what happened
> there, how frequent was this kind of "justice" and what happened to those
> who acted as judges and executioners?
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>

 [United States]
>>Temakor: Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas ( 60 sor )
>
>>As a child of
>>divorced parents (and as a divorced and remarried father) I can understand
>>how one may accept two separate families as one's own and somehow learn to
>>exist with the anomaly.  As a native Hungarian citizen who never gave up his
>>citizenship and as a refugee to the US who was grateful for the welcome and
>>the chance to establish an existence at a time when Hungary considered me a
>>fugitive and probably a criminal for taking part ion the revolution and for
>>leaving the country illegally, I have learned to live with the fact that I
>>am indeed a citizen of two countries.
>
>Charlie
>
>Your parents got divorced and you did too, meaning you only have one legal
>wife (I presume :)), and two legal parents. So how do you compare that to
>allegiance to two countries? It's like being a bigamist. I am also a refugee
>and am a US citizen. At times while living in Budapest I have thought of
>applying for my Hungarian passport, but could see no advantage in it except
>as property owner (no offense!) and maybe traveling to Cuba, etc. I was also
>grateful to the US for allowing me and my parents a refuge. Believe me, I do
>not agree with most of the politics here, but as a person who has resided in
>many countries in Europe, east and west, and for 40 years here, I still feel
>more *American* (OK maybe New York isn't *America*). Though who knows, I
>might change my mind when I return to Hugary for a visit!
>
>Anna
>
>

First, let me clarify that I do indeed have only one legal wife.

As far as my parents are concerned, I had two families, each with its own
family relations, customs, etc.  I did have to choose between them, they
were both there.

To get back to the more down-to-earth issue of cizenship:  you chose to keep
only one citizenship active, the US one.  I quite understand.  Until 1989,
while I was very much aware of my right to Hungarian citizenship, I did
nothing to activate it, as I felt I had nothing in common with the Kadar
regime.  After the change of the system, I requested and received a
Hungarian passport and I used it to travel in Europe (but not to Cuba!).

I understand that it is normal to have only one country, one family, etc.
Sometimes, however, fate brings about unusual circumstances and challanges.
Dual citizenship falls into that category.

Charlie

PS.  BTW, you don't have to have a Hungarian passport to own property there,
although it is one way to prove your citizenship.  In my case, I inherited
property from my grandparents and have owned it long before the change of
the system.

Lajos Monoki wrote a very interesting piece, detailing some of the
turncoats. The onces I like best from his list is Csaba Kosa, Erno Raffai,
and Istvan G. Palfy.

        Lajos is of course quite correct in saying that

>And it is OK -
>after 40 years of communism you can't find people with higher education,
>absolutly clear by all means. If you didn't want to join KISZ, you didn't
>have a chance to go to a university or college. If you were not a member of
>MSZMP, you probably didn't get promotions.

        but where I do the line are cases when one went further than it was
necessary. Like the unnamed newsman who ten years ago had to add his two
cents' worth in concerning the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. This was not
required; this was not necessarily expected either. Of course, you had to
join the KISZ to get into university--we all joined the DISZ (I don't think
they even asked us, just shoved a piece of paper in front of you and you
certainly didn't dare not to sign it). But one didn't have to work for the
newspaper of the Munkasorseg--perhaps one of the most despicable institution
of the Kadar regime. One didn't have to be MSZMP party secretary either and
make other people's future impoossible. But if you did all that, at least
have the decency to shut up!

>My message to them: Don't forget your past years, and don't think everybody
>has such a poor remembrance:-)

        Well, no. People on the whole have pretty good memory--just as I
remembered Klara Feher as soon as I heard the name. A kind of horrible
distaste in my mouth at the very utterance of the name. But as long as we
tiptoe around the subject, as long as journalists are afraid, for one reason
or other, to mention the name of someone who surely quite publicly made a
statement of this sort we will never have a undistorted history of the past.
I don't want to throw these guys into the jail but it is important to remind
the public who these guys are.

>Other issue:

>The main problem, that "national-journalism" is unreadable for most
>people. It's like you want to make peasants to read (and buy) Wall Street
>Journal and even enjoy it :-))

        Yes, I'm afraid you are quite right. The approach is very much like
the passage of quoted from Klara Feher. Overwritten, impressionistic,
exaggerated, often full of hatred and personal attacks, not even the
slightest attempt at objectivity. Hungarian journalism leaves a lot to be
desired in general, but unfortunately the journalism practiced by the
national right is beyond description.

        Eva Balogh

At 04:53 AM 11/8/96 GMT,David Hinds wrote:
>Could you please give me the meaning of
>the word "vajda"? I the area where I worked in Hungary there was a village
>called "Krasnokvajda", which was near the border with Slovakia. Several of us
>had considerable (speculative) discussion of the meaning of this name. If
>possible, could you offer a translation of the village name, too?

        First "vajda." It is a Slavic word. You can find variants of it in
almost all Slavic languages. "Woewode" in Polish, "voevoda" in Russian. In
Slavic languages it is a compound "wojna" = war in Polish and "wodzic" = to
lead. In Russian, Stalin was referred to as "vozhd'" = leader. So,
originally the word meant "military leader." In any case, according to my
etymological dictionary, the Hungarian "vajda," most likely got into the
Hungarian language from Old Slavic, before the Hungarians arrived in the
Pannonian basin. Historically, Transylvania was governed by a "vajda"
appointed by the king. I guess because Transylvania was originally settled
as a military zone against Eastern, barbarian invaders.

        As for "Krasznokvajda" (is this the right spelling?) I assume that
the first part of this place name is also Slavic. "Krasnyi" in Russian means
"beautiful" or "red." Maybe someone can be of more help.

        Eva Balogh

Joe try to reread your writtings and generalize. With a possible nazi living
in Canada (forget about Csizsik-Csatary) and a possible former AVOs living
in Hungary. So:

>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada. They say that society
>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
>criminals.

and also:

>>Agnes and J.Zs. are write. But they are too far. There was a war in 1956
>>in Hungary too. And they are /and they children/ too in our hierarchy.
>>Let's talk about this around okt 23.
>
>Do you not want the vicious cycle of revenge and retribution in Hungary to
>end?  I do.
>
>Joe Szalai

so you might have some idea what my problem is and why I was talking about
double-standard. Althought I have the feeling that you simple don't want to
understand it.

J.Zs

>At 09:52 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
>>J.Szalai wrote, refering to Mr.Csizsik-Csatary and Mr.Katriuk:
>>
>>>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
>>>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
>>>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that society
>>>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
>>>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
>>>criminals.
>>
>>he also wrote, refering to our 'avos' and communist 'heroes':
>>
>>>Do you not want the vicious cycle of revenge and retribution in Hungary to
>>>end?  I do.
>>>
>>>Joe Szalai
>>
>>Good! Why do you think Mr.Csizsik-Csatary was guiltier than those in the AVO?
>>Don't you think you have a nice, well-developed double standard?
>>
>>J.Zs
>
>I didn't say anything about Csizsik-Csatary's guilt or innocence.  I said
>that he should be treated properly and that under Canadian law he is
>innocent until proven guilty.
>
>So what's your problem?

At last we all agree: Eva Durant, Charles Vamossy and me. (Well,
Charles and I see eye to eye more often than not.) The exchanges on the
Internet are helpful. I find that my mind gets a little sharper in the
process of immediate answers to very complicated writings. Or, in the back
and forth one can define one's ideas a bit better. By some of the questions
my curiosity is aroused and I take the trouble to look up this or that.
There are people out there whose expertise are very different from mine and
therefore I can learn from them. So, I find the whole process very educational.

        Eva Balogh

At 07:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>The point I was trying to make was, "no taxation without representation".
>And you're right that taxes for the most part are not tied to citizenship,
>while voting is.  What I have a problem with is people who want to vote in
>more than one election because of dual citizenship or because they pay taxes
>on investments in foreign countries.

        They want the law changed because they think that the law as it is
written now stinks. What nonsense that diplomats who happen to be outside of
the country at the time of the election cannot vote. Or students who are
simply studying abroad for a year or two. Or six months, doesn't matter. A
law which makes no provision for cases like that is a stupid law.

        But then comes the case of those who are Hungarian citizens who have
been living abroad for a number of years. One could argue that they have
forfeited their right to vote. But then, let's not stand on the platform
that anyone who was born in Hungary or anyone who was born to a Hungarian
parent even if abroad is a Hungarian citizen. Let's abolish this. Let's say.
You took out another citizenship, you lose the Hungarian one. Then, no one
would argue about the question of the right of voting or not voting. But as
long as I am considered to be a Hungarian citizen, I should be entitled to
vote. The current consitution denies that right but I wonder how one can
defend such a decision, simply on grounds of common sense. The right of the
ballot is part and parcel of citizenship.

        Eva Balogh

At 05:18 PM 11/7/96 -0700, Karoly Csipkay wrote:

>The commies pretty soon changed to
>co-ops, which was reasonable, but it put the share holders into the same
>position as they were when the land was held by the landowners.  Without
>sizeable investment land can only produce so much, and no more, (especially
>with little irrigation, and it should not be forgotten, that the Danube,
>being international, can not b used) and the question is how that produce
>is distributed.

        As far as the co-ops were concerned the first attempt during the
Rakosi regime was an unmitigated disaster. Output actually shrank mostly
because only the poorest, practically landless peasants remained in the
co-ops, the middle strata, after their position was made practically
hopeless, "offered" their lands to the local co-ops and left the
agricultural sector. According to a new book on the economic history of
Hungary between 1914 and 1989, in three years, between 1950 and 1953 300,000
peasant families left the villages. This trend continued until now only 16
percent of the population is engaged in agricultural activity. So, at least
the accelerated industrialization--however shoddy products they
produced--managed to take up the rural surplus population escaping
collectivization and, let's add, brutalization. In the same book I read that
between 1950 and 1953 proceedings were brought against 400,000 peasants for
"kozellatasi buntett," that is, for crimes connected with the food supply of
the population.

        I have some wonderful stories about Hungarian agriculture between
1950 and 1953. Twice a year, the whole student body was packed up, the
school actually closed for a week and we, innocent lambs from the city, were
put on trains and taken to cooperatives to help with taking off the
"cotton." That normally happened in soggy November, and the harvest of the
so-called "cotton" looked like anything but those cotton fields one saw in
American movies. Our work was useless and I am sure that nothing but nothing
could be done with the so-called cotton we harvested. First of all, there
was a daily "norm" which, if I remember correctly, was over 20 kg of the
white stuff. Needless to say we were utterly incapable of collecting 20 kg
of cotton. For every so many pickers--forming a brigade--there was one
person designated as collector of the harvest from the pickers. Picking was
miserable and foolish me, I thought that perhaps collecting would be easier.
It wasn't. I was supposed to carry huge and heavy sacks across the field. I
was dragging the sacks around and it didn't matter how fast by brigade tried
to pick and how fast I was dragging the sacks, we were nowhere close to the
"norm." And we were told that if we don't fulfill the norm, not only we will
not get paid, but we ourselves will have to pay. Eventually, everything was
solved. The whole "harvesting" was so chaotic that we weighed one sack of
cotton at least ten times, over and over again, and this way at least, we
didn't owe them anything.

        If that disaster wasn't enough, in early summer we "had to
volunteer" to hoe the "cotton." If possible that was even worse. We didn't
even know what a cotton plant looked like--although an "agronomus" showed us
some green-looking plant saying this is it--and we were totally unable to
distinguish cotton from the incredible field of solid weeds. Eventually, we
just gave up. The "agronomus" said you have to leave one cotton plant every
20 cm. We did leave something green at intervals. And the fields were
endless. Started at six and by noon we were not even close to the end of the
first row. Our hands were raw and we were close to having sun stroke. Then
came help. A bunch of young peasant boys were standing at the end of the
field and seeing our suffering, they showed us how to "weed" with a little
more ease. Just pull the dirt over the green stuff, they said. I bet that
within two weeks the place was again a huge field full of weeds. The mania
of cotton subsided eventually. Someone must have realized that the climate
wasn't exactly the best for the white stuff. Then, were were sent to hoe and
prune(!!!) young vines. It is terrible even to think of the damage we must
have inflicted. Pruning does need expertise.

        Eva Balogh

At 12:37 PM 11/8/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>>>You're right Gabor.  Maybe direct action at the street level by the poor and
>>>their supporters might solve the problem better and faster then politicians
>>>could ever dream about.
>>
>>It's been tried. Doesn't work. Do you have any proven or new solutions?
>
>Do you?  How would you solve poverty?  Or is that not a concern of yours?
>By the way, I won't be surprised if in your answer you'll blame the poor for
>their poverty.  Blaming the victim is still somewhat in vogue and I've not
>known you to be unfashionable.

Joe, I'll surprise you. I don't blame the poor for their poverty. And I
don't have a solution. When I was much younger and brainwashed by the
scientific socialism and political economy teachers in high school, I did
believe that socialism is a good remedy. By now I know much better.

Being an engineer, I hope that computers will eventually solve it, at the
point when all manufacturing will be done by machines (on their own) and the
humans will spend all their time with arts, literature, poetry, sex,
Internet newsgroups and other pleasant things.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 06:04 PM 11/8/96 -0500, you wrote:
>        At last we all agree: Eva Durant, Charles Vamossy and me. (Well,
>Charles and I see eye to eye more often than not.) The exchanges on the
>Internet are helpful. I find that my mind gets a little sharper in the
>process of immediate answers to very complicated writings. Or, in the back
>and forth one can define one's ideas a bit better. By some of the questions
>my curiosity is aroused and I take the trouble to look up this or that.
>There are people out there whose expertise are very different from mine and
>therefore I can learn from them. So, I find the whole process very educational
.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>

I am basking in the warm glow of this rare three-way experience :))

Charlie Vamossy

>Until 1989,
>while I was very much aware of my right to Hungarian citizenship, I did
>nothing to activate it, as I felt I had nothing in common with the Kadar
>regime.  After the change of the system, I requested and received a
>Hungarian passport and I used it to travel in Europe (but not to Cuba!).

        I am exactly in the same position. I would have never activated my
Hungarian citizenship while there was one-party regime, under Kadar or not.
But once democracy and independence came I felt that I wanted to be able to
carry a Hungarian passport. To carry a passport of a new, renewed,
democratic Hungary.


        Eva Balogh

Hello Everyone!

No, I am not (yet) dead, but I have no time for anything.  This letter
was posted on a different list and I thought someone might like to reply.

Take care,
Martha


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 07:16:26 +0900
From: Isamu Shimazaki >
Subject: Urgent:Project:New Years Greeting with picture.

Urgent:Project:New Years Greeting with picture.
Hello friends,
i'm sorry to ask you all to join our project as follows,
This asked for from Asahi newspaper company in Japan.
They want to write global communication with
new years greeting card. New years greeting card means
NENGA JYO in Japanese. We are very fond of sending this
kind of cards at the first day in new year.

I have not enough time to finish this project.
It is ONLY FOR A WEEK. The end of nex week is the time limit
of this project. but we want to get many NEW Year'S greeting
with picture that showed their own new year's greeting from
all over the world.

Asahi will show our new years greeting with picture at
the first day of new year, 1997. this is a chance to tell the
wide world of global communiucation  to our Japanese people
all over Japan.

PLEASE TELL YOUR STUDENTS ABOUT THIS PROJECT.
Please help and send new years greeting picture to me


Plaese ask if you want to ask more about this project.
Thanks for your help.

Isamu Shimazaki
Japanese manager of KIDLINk
******************************************
Project:NEW YEAR'S GREETING WITH PICTURE.
Tell how you celebrate new year around your area.
And show it with attached picture.

it would be wonderful to gather pictures all the countries in the world
to show their own way to celebrate their new year.
How to say for greeting in new year?
(We say "Shinnen Akemasite Omedetou Gozaimasu" meaning,
A Happy New Year in English.)
What special food do you have in new years day?
What special activities do you do in new years day?

Please set them on your homepage or email me.


*************************************************
Most Japanese goes to shrine at the moment to be in the first second of
new year. Or watching TV late at night and have special OZOUNI.
Playing with  kite and children get special treat from their parents
and relatives. Some students get treat totaly for 100000 yen.
maybe our students tell your students more about our new year's
greeting with picture.

Thanks for your help.
Isamu Shimazaki

Eva Balogh wrote:

>Some people of my age who stayed in Hungary remembered her from the Kadar
>regime as well and apparently she wasn't exactly a reform-communist during
>that period either. And this woman today (she died shortly after writing
>this article) is writing in a tone which is basically the tone the far
>right. This woman who received all the awards the old regime ever deviced
>(Kossuth, Attila Jozsef, God knows what else) is writing as being one of the
>"ordinary people." You know the kind who has to eat fallen peaches and the
>skin of chicken. Well, I think it is sickening! Absolutely sickening!

Eva, it is usually the case. Just a few examples:

Istvan Csurka (MIEP) - He was a drama-writer in the Kadar regime, OK, maybe
not all his writings were published, but must I suppose were (BTW, Doglott
aknak is a very good one!). His family was *not* a poor one: his father
owned small business even in the post-war era in Bekes county (I thkin in
Bekes village - or city by now).

Peter Boross (MDF) - He was a director of a state-owned catering trade
company in Kadar times (I think it was called Del-Budai Vendeglatoipari
Vallalat). That's why he is called sometimes waiter (pincer :-)

Csaba Kosa (Magyar Forum journalist) - He was a journalist at Munkasor,
journal of Munkasorseg (Munkasorseg was an armed guard of MSZMP)

Erno Raffay (MDF) - He was a secretary of MSZMP at JATE University in
Szeged. BTW, in the late 80s (86-87) he fired his colleges for working on 56
issues against MSZMP's ideology.

Istvan Palffy G. (conservative TV News chief in MDF government times) - He
was a secretary of KISZ (or maybe later even MSZMP) of Hungraian Television
in Kadar regime. Before that time I remember his articles in Magyar Ifjusag,
KISZ (Federation of Young Communists) journal.

and so on ...

Of course there are similar examples on the other side too. And it is OK -
after 40 years of communism you can't find people with higher education,
absolutly clear by all means. If you didn't want to join KISZ, you didn't
have a chance to go to a university or college. If you were not a member of
MSZMP, you probably didn't get promotions.

My message to them: Don't forget your past years, and don't think everybody
has such a poor remembrance:-)

Other issue: now the opposition says government want to opress
national-journalism. Do you know how "national-journalism" survived in MDF
times? In 1993 I worked in a correction institute - a famous Csillag borton
in Szeged - as a chief of informatics (surprise, surprise - there are
computers in prisons in Hungary:). The Ministry of Justice subscribed Uj
Magyarorszag in 3 copies for *all* correction institutes, courts,
prosecutor's offices, etc. And I suppose there was a similar situation in
other Ministries. Fact: you could get a copy of daily Uj Magyarorszag even
at 8 o'clock in the evening in news stands, just before closing (I suppose
copies of "national-journalism" were mainly recycled).
Now there are no government subscriptions for those papers - people don't
want to buy them even now - so they are in big trouble (or deep s...t). The
moral of the story: you can convince people to vote for you - but you can
never convince people to give out monney for your product if they can't use
it. The main problem, that "national-journalism" is unreadable for most
people. It's like you want to make peasants to read (and buy) Wall Street
Journal and even enjoy it :-))

Lajos Monoki

Szabo Attila > asked:

>    Irdekelne hogy vannak-e magyar versek valahol a Web-en, ugyanis
> feltettem az sajatomat meg az anyamit is ezekhez az amatvr versekhez
> valami profi linkeket szeretnik kapcsolni ;-)
>
> A verseim URL cmme:
>
>     http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/2707/versek.htm
>
>   Minden vtletet is ztbaigazmtast elvre is megkvszvnok.

A great amount of Hungarian verses, literature etc. (e.g. complete
poetic works of Petofi, Jozsef Attila) can be found in Magyar
Elektronikus Konyvtar (MEK, Hungarian Electronic Library). The
material is daily growing and there are are plans to extend the
collection. URL:

http://www.mek.iif.hu/

Happy browsing! Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------