Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 113
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-10-23
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Re; Red terror & White terror (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Re; Red terror & White terror (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
9 POL paper on Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
10 Antisemitism (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: 1989, 1919 (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: 1989, 1919 (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Anti-semitism (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  94 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Anarchism (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Anti-semitism (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Anarchism (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
23 Kun's cabinet and the purges (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
24 Political watch (mind)  84 sor     (cikkei)
25 October 23 (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Anarchism (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Anarchism (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Anarchism (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Anarchism (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Anarchism (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Anti-semitism (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Anti-semitism (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Collapse of Communism (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Anti-semitism (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Red terror & White terror (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: October 23 (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Governor's race New York (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> The Third Reich, The Soviet Union, Mao's China and possibly Shaka's Zulu
> empire are considered totalitarian (or at least quasi).  But why not Franco's
> Spain, Pinnochet's Chile, Castro's Cuba, Ho Chi Mihn's Vietnam, Papa/Baby
 Doc's
> Haiti, Hussein's Irak and so on... Why would these regimes not be considered
> totalitarian?  How about Europe in the middle ages?

For the same reason we don't call white "light grey",
and black "dark grey".  :-)

--Greg
+ - Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc, there is a voluminous literate in political science on "totali-
tarianism" and its difference with "dictatorship."  You might start with
Zbigniew Brzezinski and Carl J. Friedrich and their voluminous footnotes to
other works.  In general, I think the term is not useful and was a cold war
propaganda term, but many people still regard it as analytically helpful in
understanding the difference.  Zbig used a "syndrome" of characteristics
which plain old garden varieties of dictatorship did not have, including
the Zulu et al.  Also Peron's Argentina and even Franco Spain and Salazar's
Portugal were not included, etc.  Good luck and if you're *really* interested
I send you some more readings upon your 'Net request.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Fri, 21 Oct 1994, H. MARC wrote:

> The Third Reich, The Soviet Union, Mao's China and possibly Shaka's Zulu
> empire are considered totalitarian (or at least quasi).  But why not Franco's
> Spain, Pinnochet's Chile, Castro's Cuba, Ho Chi Mihn's Vietnam, Papa/Baby
 Doc's
> Haiti, Hussein's Irak and so on... Why would these regimes not be considered
> totalitarian?  How about Europe in the middle ages?
>
> Another thought:  Would the Third Reich and the Soviet Union possibly existed
> as truly Totalitarian without the invention of such things as the machine gun
,
> the automobile, the telephone, radio, rocket warfare ect;  In other words did
> technology play a significant role in sustaining (if only temporarily) these
> totalitarian regimes?
>
> Just some thoughts....marc
>
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Of course, that's what's nice about the 'Net-Free thought.  But
my understanding is that Chernobyl was a graphite plant and that there
are four in the U.S.  Is this incorrect?  Also the devastation was a good
deal more severe than the Russians let on, it even poisoned vegetables in
Greece and Sweden.  In any event, nuclear power may be necessary in France
but the U.S. has a good many other power resources which are far safer
including wind, geothermal, etc.  Why run the risk of nuclear plants if
we don't need to?
        What is the nuclear power situation in Hungary?

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Re: Re; Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sandor Lengyel writes:

>You misunderstood the letter. The question is not between right and left,
>but between blood for blood revenge, and just plain hate. I certainly
>very strongly disliked the previous communist goverment, but not for a
>moment would I think killing any of them. There is more likelyhood,
>that if someone would kill my family, I would take revenge. (If the
>state would not do it in my place).
> I agree with Bela Batkay's response in #110. You probably read it by now.
>

I don't think I misunderstood you.  I think we have fundamentally
differring concepts of what constitutes violence and what the nature of
evil is.  For example, I buy banannas in the supermarket for $.45 a pound,
even though I know that United Fruit pays some poor man that amount for a
whole day's picking.  What United Fruit does is violent and my buying the
banannas is collaboration, its just that I am too weak to resist.  I tell
myself, that everything is like that and I can't resign from the world.

Its seems to me, that not only you, but most people, concieve of evil as
being located in bad people.  These people then come along at random
intervals and commit evil deeds, perhaps because they are greedy and wish
to profit and have no scruples,  or perhaps, just because they are evil and
that's what they do.  My experience is limited, but I haven't run across
people like this.  If they exist, the question remains how such people can
manifest their evil in history since they must constitute a small minority.
 In any case, if such evil people cause evil to happen, the solution is
clear and symple, eliminate the evil people and our troubles are over once
and for all.

I don't think evil is located in individuals.  I think that we all produce
evil which manifests itself through weak individuals who allow it to come
through them..


To illustrate what I mean,  consider the last five decades of the Romanoff
dynasty.  It beat down various movements of reform, so that the only force
that could move it was the vanguardist revolutionaries of Lenin, who beat
them at their own game.  It's no suprise that they turned out to be even
worse.  Thus the evils of nineteenth century Russian society *produced* and
*selected* the characters which destroyed it.  Had the Czar instituted
progressive and rational social measures in the 1870's,  there might never
have been a Russian revolution.

Similarly, Bela Kun and his the Lenin boys, didn't just come to be.
Eastern Europe produced them with generations of pogroms, with serfdom,
with inhumanity piled on inhumanity.  I don't think that this releives them
of responsibility for their actions, God will judge them, but it is not
edifying for me to spend much time thinking about it.  What I was trying to
point out is that rather then fixing blame for the past, we should think
about how we can have a more just and peaceful society and world, because
if we continue as we are, we *shall surely* be destroyed.

We are small nation and we have suffered much in the course of history.  In
Europe, only we and the Irish and a few other small nations are the only
ones who practiced no colonialism and were colonized instead.  It's a
wonder we survived.   But if we compare ourselves to the Tibetans or the
East Timurese, not to mention the Nootka, Tlinglit and Gits'kan (here in
British Columbia), we had it easy.

In the end, the land will decide whom She will tolerate.  Sometimes I think
it would be best if all men resigned from responsible positions and let the
women run things for a change.

Udv.,
Tibor Benke
+ - Re: Wrong analogy, varieties of political murder (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

As Senator Claiborne Pell once observed to me, if you like someone's
politics they are "freedom fighters," as in Nicaragua but if you *dis*like
their politics then they are assassins!  The problem gets really sticky when
one looks at the Middle East where I believe Yitzhak Rabin was the head of
 the Stern Gang and later fought the P.L.O. "terrorists"
which is what the British called Rabin's group Menachim Begin's Irgun!
        Thus the problem is sticky because of "state-sponsored" vs. private
or sub-state terrorism like the Hamas or Iranian-financed "Party of God."
        I conclude that a "terrorist" is someone who uses terror in a cause
of which *I* disapprove.
--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Fri, 21 Oct 1994, JELIKO wrote:

> Glen Camp writes:
>
> >         On Joe Hill, you have to realize that he was a naive radical
> romantic
> > like most Wobblies.  As an anarchist, however, he was as far from a
> state-
> > centered autocratic ideology such as Marxism-Leninism as could be
> imagined.
>
> Before we romanticise too much the anarchists as "poetic" and "romantic"
> we may recall that one of their approved tenets was assasination of those
> who opposed them or was percieved by them as potentially preventing their
> rule.
>
> Regards,Jeliko.
>
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

He's a Conservative Republican running against a passionate Liberal
Democrat, Cuomo, who is saddled with the terrible recession which has hit
NY state.  His position is somewhat like Diane Feinstein's in Calif. vs.
Mike Huffington or Ted Kennedy's vs. Mitt Romney in Mass.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Fri, 21 Oct 1994, Joe Pannon wrote:

> Jeliko, quoting George Pataki:
>
> > " My Hungarian roots are very important to me. As The first
> > Hungarian-American Governor of any state and the highest-elected
> > Hungarian-American official in America, one of my first trips abroad, as a
> > Governor, will be to Hungary"
>
> All right!  Now how can I send him some campaign contribution?
> BTW, what is his politics overall?
>
> Joe
>
+ - Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If you compare Alfred Cobban's DICTATORSHIP vs. Brzezinski's and
Friedrich's early work, you will see that to them "totalitarian" is
defined as a "syndrome" of characteristics one of which is a modern indus-
trial system (thus excluding all LDC's presumably).  Thus dictatorships
are not all totalitarian and the problem of in- or exclusion is one of
the concepts' weaknesses--which is why it's less used today.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Fri, 21 Oct 1994  wrote:

> > The Third Reich, The Soviet Union, Mao's China and possibly Shaka's Zulu
> > empire are considered totalitarian (or at least quasi).  But why not
 Franco's
> > Spain, Pinnochet's Chile, Castro's Cuba, Ho Chi Mihn's Vietnam, Papa/Baby
>  Doc's
> > Haiti, Hussein's Irak and so on... Why would these regimes not be considere
d
> > totalitarian?  How about Europe in the middle ages?
>
> For the same reason we don't call white "light grey",
> and black "dark grey".  :-)
>
> --Greg
>
+ - Re: Re; Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What makes you think women would improve over men's behavior?
First, that seems to suggest we aren't part of the same human race, and
second it seems very little progress is to be expected by such an expec-
tation (which could be viewed as sexism??), and third, the track record
of women who have governed (Golda Meier, Indira Gandhi, Benizer Bhutto,
Tansu Ciller) does not suggest a more enlightened rule than that shown
by their male counterparts.  We must look elsewhere for progress and
I think it's to be found via the Enlightenment ideas of universal educa-
tion and an enlightened citizenry choosing just and creative leaders via
a form of participatory democracy regardless of gender, class, or race,
or religion.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - POL paper on Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!

I'm doing a political research on the period 1985 - 1990 in Hungary,
that is, on the transition from communism to capitalism in this country.

I would appreciate any input regarding the state structure at any moment
in this period. I'm also interested in the evolution of the decision-making
processes during the same period.

Any inputs will be greatly appreciated (and fully reference will be given
for them in my paper, of course).

        All the best,
                Cosmin Broasca
        International Affairs and Economics,
        VUB - Vesalius College Brussels
+ - Antisemitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Imi Bokor wrote in HUNGARY #112:
>  anti-semitism is not so much a case of religious intolreance (although
>  that is part of its origin) as a form of racialism. its targets are not
>  only those who ascribe to judaism as a religion but just as much
>  secular jews, even people who disclaim any "jewishness" but are of
>  jewish background.

I'm grateful for the above EXCELLENT definition, applicably everywhere, not
necessarily in Hungary only.

Still, I feel that in antisemitism there is also factor of myths.  A blond
northern Askenazy has nothing racially common with the Ethiopian Falasha or
the Marokkan Sefardic jew.  Similarly, if Arafat would drop the kitchen towel
from his head, most of us Europeans would think, he is a jew, albeit an
extremely ugly one.  So where is the race in this?

Perhaps, the relevant part in antisemitism is indoctrination.  Children learn
from their parents and schoolmates that jews are deplorable and they to be the
target of hatred.  For instance, today's Poland has practically no jewish
population, nor it had since the 1968 exodus of the few survivors of WWII.
(Gomulka had got rid of them by using the events in Prague as pretext.)
Nevertheless, the most recent (free) Polish election campaigns were loaded
with accusations of jewishness in order to disqualify some candidates.

According to my grandmother, a gypsy woman was standing at the roadside in 1944
and watching the columns of deportees passing by, said in tears: Poor filthy
jews! (Szegeny budos zsidok!).

Secular jews, non-practicing jews, assimilated jews, even baptised ex-jews were
all forced to march there.  As we know, a single jewish grandparent was
sufficient to qualify...

Thank you, Imi!
Gabor Ellmann
+ - Re: 1989, 1919 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg writes:
> Andra1s Kornai writes:

> > So I find myself agreeing with Jeliko1 that "it was not the
> > build-up itself that threatened them but their own internal response to
it".

> Well, we'll leave it at that then, since I think this is only a semantic
> difference.

> For another point of view, a colleague here suggested that, more than
> anything else, it was with information that the West weakened the SU. (I
mean,
> the SU's internal response was in the form of weakening.)  According to
> this point of view, it was the ever-increasing, ever-increasingly-obvious
> disparity in economic conditions that led to collapse.

> --Greg
Sorry Greg, it was not another but the same view. I was the one stating
both issues as parts of the demise causes. I do not think that a single
issue broke them, it was a combination of factors. I feel both were
important.
In several commentaries, it is mentioned that the collapse was sudden
compared to the failures of other empires (evil and otherwise). IMHO,
history is accelerating, and some other collapses were "sudden" in their
time and in their time scale.
Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe--

I believe Pataki claims to be a pro-choice, tax-cutting, pro-death penalty,
pro-gay rights Republican.  Ready to write that check?

Back on earth,

Marc Nasdor

+ - Re: 1989, 1919 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko writes:

> > For another point of view, a colleague here suggested that...

> Sorry Greg, it was not another but the same view. I was the one...

*I'm* sorry for not being clearer.  What I should have said was
"After discussing this over a beer after work with a colleague
here at Biosym..."

I nominated military spending, he nominated information flow, etc, etc.

Which means, I guess, that we both supported you, in our own
humble ways.  :-)



--Greg
+ - Re: Anti-semitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Imi Bokor writes:

> if you want references, just look up any set of archives on the jewish
> laws in hungary in the 30's and 40's for a start.

> d.a.

To see how anti-semitism demonstrates itself in Hungary today?

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This thread's been dropped, I know, but while searching for my
copy of _On Totalitarianism_, I did come across a minor treasure:

----
A History of Hungary
ed. Ervin Pamle1nyi, contributors I.Barta, I.T.Berend, P.Hana1k,
M.Lacko1, L.Makkai, Zs.L.Nagy and Gy.Ra1nki

Compiled under the auspices of the History Institute of the
Hungarian Academy of Sciences

Corvina Press, 1973
----

(One of these days, I'll stumble across my copy of
_The Secret Correspondance of Miklo1s Horthy_, but that's another
post.)

Anyways, from Chapter IX (Berend & Ra1nki), headed "The White Terror":

        The units of the counter-revolutionary National Army, starting
out early in August from Szeged, first advanced northward in the region
between the Danube and the Tisza rivers not occupied by the Rumanian
troops, and then established their general headquarters in the western
part of the country.  They only marched into Budapest in November,
following the withdrawal of the Rumanians, but by the spring of 1920,
their authority covered essentially the whole territory of the country.
The path of Horthy's detachments of officers was marked by savage terror.
In the autumn of 1919 and in 1920, not striving for even the semblance
of legality, they massacred and tortured to death persons they captured
who had held offices under the Soviet Republic, Communists, and workers
and peasants who had participated in the revolution.  In the villages
and on the estates, it was enough for the landlord to complain about his
farm labourers to have them hanged on the branches of the nearest acacia
tree.  There were an exceptionally large number of Jewish victims of the
blood-bath.  Unbridled anti-semitism combined with the counter-
revolutionary terror led to the staging of pogroms reminiscent of the
Middle Ages.  For example, the Pro1nay detachment tortured 200 Communists
and left-wing prisoners to death in the village of Marcali.  In the
course of the pogrom at Diszel the members of the detachment even
flung children into wells.  The news of the mass murders of the Pro1nay,
He1jjas and Ostenburg detachments at Sio1fok, Orgova1ny, Izsa1k and
Kecskeme1t became known throughout the world, and evoked the protests
of world public opinion.  Within a few months, about 5,000 people fell
victim to the white terror, and 70,000 people were crammed into the
crowded prisons and newly established concentration camps.  The number
of those who emmigrated exceeded even this figure.  Horthy proved that
he could keep order in Hungary with a bloody hand.
----

Strangely, I couldn't find any reference to a "Red Terror" anywhere
in the book.

--Greg
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc:

> I believe Pataki claims to be a pro-choice, tax-cutting, pro-death penalty,
> pro-gay rights Republican.  Ready to write that check?

Let's see ...
There are two items there in which Pataki is better than Cuomo, on the
others he seems to be the same.  So on the net, he would be an
improvement.

So where is that address for Pataki's campaign?

Joe
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In reply to your message of "Sat, 22 Oct 94 11: 00:15 PDT."
             >
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 12:47:32 -0700
From: 

WWW surfing to the rescue!

 From gopher://nysernet.org



The Pataki Record
conservative on fiscal issues, crime; moderate on
social issues, environment

Senator Alfonse D'Amato is working so hard to promote State Senator George
Pataki because the Senator fits the profile D'Amato and Republican Chairman
Bill Powers liked from poll data:  an ethnic Catholic who is fiscally
conservative, tough on crime, but moderate on abortion.  They also are getting
a youthful, suburbanite who went to Yale and has a reputation for upset
victories.

Pataki's rise to state prominence has been fairly swift though he has
only served in the Senate two years after 8 years in the Assembly.
Pataki's legislative career nearly came to a halt in 1992 when he barely
defeated State Senate Mary Goodhue in a Republican primary.  Pataki
challenged Goodhue in whose past campaigns he had worked.  She viewed
him as a likely heir, but he joined other Assembly members tired of
waiting around by challenging incumbent Senators in their party and
accusing them of voting for state budgets that increased taxes.
He raised over $460,000 to run the campaign and beat Goodhue in the primary
by about 500 votes.  The amount he raised was second only to Senate Majority
Leader Ralph Marino. He then easily won the general election even with
Goodhue in on another line. Pataki says he is a conservative on criminal
justice issues, favoring the death penalty.  He is also conservative on
fiscal issues and favors cuts in welfare and Medicaid programs.  He
wants to eliminate the Board of Regents and re-structure the State
Education Department.

He has a more progressive record on environmental issues and even was voted
as Legislator of the Year by the Envirnomental Planning Lobby in 1989.  He
was a leader in promoting the Hudson Valley Greenway and the Solid Waste
Management Act.

He has personally maintained decent relations with Marino though Marino has
opposed his bid for Governor because of his ties to CHANGE-NY, the right
wing political group which tried to unseat him in a primary race.


Albany Office:  Legislative Office Bldg, Rm 812  (518) 455-3111

Principal Aides

Ann O'Sullivan, Director of Operations
Maryellen Scaramuzza, Office Manager/Director of Constituent Services

District Office:   1008 Main Street, Peekskill, NY 10566 (914) 736-7101

District:  parts of Putnam, Dutchess, and Westchester
Legislative Career:
1st Senate term.
First elected in 1992.
     Assembly,1985-92.

Committeee Assigments:  Chair, Ethics Committee, Member:  Banks, Codes,
Environmental Conservation, Housing and Community Development, Social
Services

Political and Governmental Positions Held
Mayor, City of Peekskill (1982-84)

Memberships
Hudson Valley Greenway Council

Board Member, Hudson Valley Hospital Center
Board Member, Paramount Center for the Arts

Honors and Awards
"State Legislator of the Year", Environmental Planning Lobby   (1989)
"Conservative of the Year", Westchester County Conservative Party (1988)
Ranking Scholar, Yale University (Junior Year)

Education
Columbia School of Law, New York City (J.D.,1970)     Yale University, New
Haven, Connecticut (B.A.,1967)    Peekskill High School, Peekskill (1963)

Personal
Born: June 24, 1945 in Peekskill
Family: wife, Elizabeth;
4 children
Religion: Catholic


--Greg
+ - Re: Anarchism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko writes in a reply to  Glenn Camp

>Glen Camp writes:
>
>>         On Joe Hill, you have to realize that he was a naive radical
>romantic
>> like most Wobblies.  As an anarchist, however, he was as far from a
>state-
>> centered autocratic ideology such as Marxism-Leninism as could be
>imagined.
>
>Before we romanticise too much the anarchists as "poetic" and "romantic"
>we may recall that one of their approved tenets was assasination of those
>who opposed them or was percieved by them as potentially preventing their
>rule.
>



As one would expect, anarchists are not noted for doctrinal homogeneity.
It is true that many European anarchists beleived in what they called
'propaganda of the deed' which usually consisted of assassination attempts
against  powerful political figures.  Even more anarchists support bombing
or otherwise sabotaging  'the establishment's' property.  But most
anarchists are interested in organizing unions or founding co-operatives.
Many condemn all forms of violence.  Here in Vancover, we have the
Anarchist Party (Marxist-Lennonist) whose members  go about throwing cream
pies in the faces of prominent politicians and business leaders.  The IWW
was a grass roots labour movement  mostly in the west  of North America.
They were also refferred to as OBU (for One Big Union).  The idea was that
since capital needed labour, if the workers of the world could be organized
in One Big Union, no revolution would be needed to abolish capitalism, just
one big general strike.  As Glen already pointed out, this was a somewhat
naive idea, but its failure can tell us something about the inherent
problems of large scale anti-hiearchical organizations.  What is more, the
IWW still exists as a sort of left wing sect in Seattle, Wa, Vancouver, BC,
Chicago, Ill, and other places.  Last I heard, they were organizing the
office workers at Greenpeace. It is a truly interesting specimen for the
study of social movements.

For those who would dismiss anarchy as obviously inpractical, I would point
to the practical achievements of the Spanish co-operative movement, and
also wish them to consider that Homo Sap as a species has been on the face
of this planet for some 250,000 years, and of this time only for perhaps
6,000 to 9,000 have some enjoyed the benefits of living under some form of
state and only for the last 1,000 has the majority been so blessed.  The
question is  whether  humankind and the planet
 were better off before or after this achievement?

Cheers,

Tibor Benke
+ - Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc H writes;
> did
> technology play a significant role in sustaining (if only temporarily)
these
> totalitarian regimes?

> Just some thoughts....marc
Yes, it prevented the epidemics which before technology accompanied the
wars. Let's not get into technology bashing again and again and again.
Technology has just as much significance, if not more, in breaking the
totalitarian regimes as sustaining them.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: Anti-semitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Adam Galambos writes:
> Matt, you wrote that the fact, that people in Budapest might react
negatively to
> somebody walking around wearing a Star of David, did not show
anti-semitism.

As it happens, I have a symbol of the Chinese Godess of Mercy, on a chain
on my neck. It also created stares and some comments not only in Hungary
but in several places. While nobody beat me up (or offered to) so far, I
attribute that to the efficacy of the Godess.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Anarchism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> ...Homo Sap as a species has been on the face
> of this planet for some 250,000 years, and of this time only for perhaps
> 6,000 to 9,000 have some enjoyed the benefits of living under some form of
> state and only for the last 1,000 has the majority been so blessed.  The
> question is  whether  humankind and the planet
>  were better off before or after this achievement?

What a silly question!  Of course we were better off when life was
nasty, mean, brutish, and short.

--Greg
+ - Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Marc H writes;
> > did
> > technology play a significant role in sustaining (if only temporarily)
> these
> > totalitarian regimes?
>
> > Just some thoughts....marc
> Yes, it prevented the epidemics which before technology accompanied the
> wars. Let's not get into technology bashing again and again and again.
> Technology has just as much significance, if not more, in breaking the
> totalitarian regimes as sustaining them.
>
> Regards,Jeliko

What is this, be harsh on youth week?  It's not necessarily bashing
to be interested in the role technology played; or for that matter
the role popular arts, organized religion, etc., played.

--Greg
+ - Kun's cabinet and the purges (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

As promised here is a list of those members of the Kun government who ended
up in the Soviet Union either in the early 1920s, after the so-called "Trial
of the Commissars," or sometime in the early 1930s, after Hitler's accession
to power in Germany.
(1) Bela Vago, first went to Austria, later to Germany, then to the Soviet
Union. Killed during the Stalinist purges, sometime in 1939.
(2) Jeno Hamburger left for the Soviet Union in 1922. He was lucky: he seemed
to have died of natural causes in 1936.
(3) Gyorgy Nyisztor was really lucky--he died in January 1956 in Hungary,
after surviving the purges in the Soviet Union. Most likely he was too
insignificant and didn't have a high profile job in the Soviet Union,
although he had been there since 1922.
(4) Karoly Vantus, arrive in the Soviet Union in 1922, after the Trial of the
Commissars, and died in 1927. Another lucky soul.
(5) Bela Kun. Arrived in the Soviet Union in 1920. Arrested in 1937. Died in
prison in 1939.
(6) Rezso Fiedler. Went to the Soviet Union in 1928. Arrested in 1938. Died
in 1939.
(7) Jozsef Haubrich. After the Trial of the Commissars he moved to the Soviet
Union. Killed in 1939.
(8) Bela Szanto. He had to be a real rat. Survived it all and returned to
Hungary in 1945. Became Hungarian ambassador to Warsaw (1948-51). Died in
1951.
(9) Gyorgy Lukacs. Went to the Soviet Union after 1933. Survived it
all--worked as an editor of a couple of literary periodials. Returned to
Hungary in 1945, and we know the rest.
(10) Jozsef Pogany. Went to the Soviet Union in 1920. Arrested in 1937.
Killed in 1938.
(11) Dezso Bokanyi. Left after the Trial of the Commissars. Arrested in 1938,
died in prison hospital in 1940.
(12) Bela Szekely. Lived in the Soviet Union from 1933 on. In 1938 he was
arrested and killed.
(13) Gyula Lengyel. Lived in the Soviet Union from 1930 on. Arrested in 1937,
died in captivity in 1941.
(14) Jeno Varga. Left for the Soviet Union sometime in 1920, and, as we know,
he died as a famous economist in Moscow in 1964. Another clever survivor.
(15) Gyula Hevesi. Lived in the Soviet Union between 1921 and 1948. From 1959
member of the Hungarian Central Committee--Kosuth Prize winner. Wrote an
interesting autobiography (by the way). Another clever survivor.
(16) Jozsef Kelen. After the Trial of the Commissars he left for the Soviet
Union. Killed in 1938. Survived by his wife, Mrs. Jozsef Kelen (Jolan Fried)
who was allowed to leave the Soviet Union after Stalin's death (1954). Dabled
in history. I remember reading a number of her not-so-great books about the
Hungarian Soviet Republic. Member of the Institute of Party History.

I am sure that this is not a complete list. Somewhere I have a book on the
Trial of the Commissars where I saw a group picture of those who received
death sentences and were exchanged by the Hungarian government for Hungarian
prisoners of war still in Soviet Russia. I remember checking the biographies
of each and coming to the conclusion that at least 90 percent of them were
killed during the purges.

Eva Balogh
+ - Political watch (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eszter Ra1dai, one of the journalists who lost their jobs at the radio,
interviewed six academics: historians, political scientists, and sociologist.
The question she asked them was "Will the past come back?" (Visszate1r-e a
mu1lt?" (See *168 o1ra,* October 11, 1994, pp. 10-11.) Here are the
abbreviated answers:

Andra1s B. Hegedu2s, historian: He is somewhat worried about this
"future-oriented pragmatism" which characterizes the new government. Without
historical consciousness there cannot be national consciousness. He is
worried about the tendency of the public to emphasize only the positive
features of the Ka1da1r regime, suggesting that it was "a good regime"; it
was always a reform-oriented regime. But we all know that this is just half
truth, or perhaps only a quarter truth. One can read such statements as the
MDF was actually nothing but the MSZMP and the Hungarian Socialist Party now
will able to finish the job of reform which they had been prevented from
performing in 1990. "This is such a statement which is untenable,
insupportable, not even worth discussing." The interviewer inquired from
Hegedu2s whether he thinks that such an opinion is becoming the "official"
opinion. Answer: he doesn't know it yet but one can imagine such a
development. However, he is sure that the basic freedoms cannot be taken away
anymore. Freedom of speech will remain and at least we will be allowed to
talk back.

Ge1za Komoro1czy, historian: Lately he has been spending more time in Vienna
than in Budapest but every time he goes to Hungary he has the distinct
feeling that many people think that "the globe, which around 1988, left its
orbit, now with the spectacular victory of the socialists, will return
exactly where it was then." He is worried that the SZDSZ can assert itself
only in protesting, while earlier the SZDSZ was able to be noisy.
Unfortunately, I can see that a restoration, just as thorough as the one
before, is beginning to unfold just like during the Antall government but the
anger of the population has not yet gathered force yet.

Andra1s Bozo1ki, political scientist: No, the Ka1da1r regime will not return
but those people who during that period were prominent and had serious
influence on politics, can now return and have returned, because we don't
have two sets of the elite. The same people who were assisting at the demise
of dictatorship now are trying to build democracy. The only thing Bozo1ki
finds offensive that these people act as if they were still in 1987. He
notices the return of the mentality and practices of late Kadarism: the old
gestures, the old manifestations, the customary manners of administration.
They practice the same kind of "crisis propaganda" as they did in the 80s.
Today is 1994 and not 1987.

Elema1r Hankiss, sociologist: Without Moscow there is no Ka1da1r regime. But
of course there are some common features of the two eras, even a blind man
can see that. Hankiss complains about the strong ties between the political
and the economic elites. This is an illness inherited from late Ka1da1rism,
and we must get rid of it--such thing is not practiced in developed
countries.

Guszta1v Molna1r, political scientist: Can one see efforts at restoration? In
foreign affairs he has not yet noticed such developments. The continuity of
Western orientation is still unbroken. There are a few things he doesn't
particularly like. For example, the government emphasizes economic
integration and less so the military integration. For example, he notices
uncertainty concerning NATO. [Zoli Fekete, are you listening? Obviously, I
wasn't the only one who noticed it!] But let's wait. In any case, he is not
worried because he is hoping that in case of a change in orientation, the
SZDSZ will protest, and will leave the coalition. As long there is the
coalition one shouldn't worry about restoration. He is more worried about the
intellectual bleakness of the Ka1da1r period.

Ferenc Miszlivecz, sociologist: It is an illusion that society changes just
because there was a political change. The old mentality, the old thinking,
the societal attitudes, and of course the old institutions are still there.
The question is: will the population tolerate the same official attitude
which was the hallmark of the Kadar regime. It depends on the region, and the
social strata. There are some for whom "freedom simply an empty slogan." He
prepared a few interviews before the elections in the County of Be1ke1s and
the most often-heard sentence was: "What for do we have this circus [meaning
the elections], we are not the West, I will vote for Gyula Horn, anyway."
Thus we must acknowledge that this is not a democratic society. It is not the
question what is the MSZP. The MSZP is what it is. Here we are talking about
us, about society. In the long run he is optimistic, something new is
beginning to develop and it is fighting with the old. However, he can't quite
predict what the outcome of the fight will be in three or four years.
Especially, because the fight between old and new takes place in people's
head.

That's the end. All six people seemed to have serious reservations about the
new government's attitudes.

Eva Balogh
+ - October 23 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My dear fellow list members,

Tomorrow is October 23, 1994, a new national holiday. And today I received a
gift for the day--surprisingly from a page from *168 ora." It was a picture
taken on October 23, 1956, around 2 p.m. at the Peto3fi Square--a bunch of
ELTE students standing around waiting to form the rows of ten in which we
marched from Peto3fi Square to Bem Square arm in arm. This picture had not
yet been earlier published. Istva1n Bo2lcs looked at the old picture and
discovered himself, smack in the middle of the throngs. Indeed, there he is,
glasses and all. I took out a magnifying glass and began to scan the picture.
Lo and behold, there we are: Kati Fro2lich, Zsuzsa Hete1s, Helga Erdei-Gru1z
(yes, daughter of Tibor, but an awfully decent person, and a good friend) and
myself. All classmates, all friends. Ista1n Bo2lcs also discovered a few
friends: Gyuri Go2mo2ri, Gyuszi Ma1hr, Zoli Radno1ti, Marcsi Za1honyi, Panni
Keller--whom he didn't see again for decades because they left the country.

This is the gift I got today. Asking you to think of those days, with best
wishes, Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Anarchism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>> ...Homo Sap as a species has been on the face
>> of this planet for some 250,000 years, and of this time only for perhaps
>> 6,000 to 9,000 have some enjoyed the benefits of living under some form of
>> state and only for the last 1,000 has the majority been so blessed.  The
>> question is  whether  humankind and the planet
>>  were better off before or after this achievement?
>
>What a silly question!  Of course we were better off when life was
>nasty, mean, brutish, and short.
>

That was Hobbes' view.  Do you share his opinion as discussed in the rest
of Leviathan ?  The evidence of modern anthropology supports very little of
it.  I recommend that you have a look at Marshall Sahlins, _Stone Age
Economics_.  He points out that pre agricultural societies because they can
only support low density populations, cannot compete in terms of millitary
power with agricultural societies and thus get forced into ever more
marginal ecological areas.  We can get some idea of what the actual stone
age  life must have been like, in contrast to the myths  of naked
bourgeoisie that economists use, by looking at what remains of Pacific
Northwest civilization.  Maybe life expectancy was shorter, but the quality
of life was certainly superior.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating that we return to  the stone
age, merely that we use our knowledge of it to gain perspective so we can
understand our situation.  For one thing, we need to understand that it is
the bounty of the earth and not hard work in itself which creates wealth,
at least untill we learn to survive in outer space.


Cheers,

Tibor
+ - Re: Anarchism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke writes:

> We can get some idea of what the actual stone
> age  life must have been like...by looking at what remains of Pacific
> Northwest civilization.  Maybe life expectancy was shorter, but the quality
> of life was certainly superior.

How does one measure "quality of life" in stone age cultures?

> Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating that we return to
> the stone age...

If it was so certainly superior, why not?


--Greg
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If he's a pro-gay rights Republican then his position violates the
GOP's national Party Program.  Does that make him a liberal Republican or
a hypocritical Republican or neither and if so why?

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Sat, 22 Oct 1994, Marc Nasdor wrote:

> Joe--
>
> I believe Pataki claims to be a pro-choice, tax-cutting, pro-death penalty,
> pro-gay rights Republican.  Ready to write that check?
>
> Back on earth,
>
> Marc Nasdor
> 
>
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks for the exhaustive bio.  But isn't it "Mario" CUOMO rather
than Marino?
        I knew there was something I couldn't stand about Pataki-- He's a
Yalie! Ugh!


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Re: Anarchism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Finally a definitive comment on the role of anarchism and its con-
nection to the IWW (Wobblies).  I could hardly add anything here.
        As to the role of the state, like most Americans--and we have at
our best a streak of anarchism in our political culture and personal make-
up--I am of two minds.  Was it not F. Scott Fitzgerald who said true
brilliance consists of keeping two contradictory ideas in one's mind at the
same time without allowing either to keep one from action?
        For the anarchist, "Bobbie" Burns the Scots poet:

        A fig for those by law protected
        Liberty's a glorious feast
        Courts for cowards were erected
        Churches built to please the priest.

        And for those of us who insist that organized government (Liberty
and Union, now and forever, one and inspeparable-Webster's reply to Senator
Haynes) I would quote Lord Burke:

        "The State is not a trade in callico, coffee or cloth, the State is
a Contract, a Contract between the living, the dead, and the yet unborn."

        The trick is to achieve *ordered Liberty under Law* and the order
to be beneficent must be *internalized* by an educated citizenry who demand
both liberty *and* law.

        Our Lincoln said it best: "As I would not be a master, so I would
not be a slave.  This expresses my idea of democracy.  Anything different
from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy"!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Re: Anarchism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I don't think it's a *silly* question at all--in fact it's rather
profound.  After all, Sokrates suggested "the unexamined life is not worth
living."
        As for the quote from Thomas Hobbes, he added "solitary," i.e.,
"the life of man is *solitry*, nasty, brutish, and short."  He lived through
the English Civil War so he should know!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Sat, 22 Oct 1994  wrote:

> > ...Homo Sap as a species has been on the face
> > of this planet for some 250,000 years, and of this time only for perhaps
> > 6,000 to 9,000 have some enjoyed the benefits of living under some form of
> > state and only for the last 1,000 has the majority been so blessed.  The
> > question is  whether  humankind and the planet
> >  were better off before or after this achievement?
>
> What a silly question!  Of course we were better off when life was
> nasty, mean, brutish, and short.
>
> --Greg
>
+ - Re: Anarchism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I share Hobbes' view as far as much of international politics is
concerned as witness the pusilanimous response of the Europeans to the
slaughter of the innocents in Bosnia-Herzegovina--or Rwanda, Sudan, etc.
        Still as an American of the WWII generation I am hopelessly
optimistic at least in the long term.  I see evidence (including the Net)
that the human race will one day become what Bobbie Burns hoped for: "it's
comin' yet for 'a that/when man to men to world o'er, shall brithers be
for a' that."
        With respect to your evident contempt for economists, I also share
that in part.   Finally as one who worked for Margaret Mead I am not sure
I always find cultural anthropology correct as far as its political views
are concenred, but I use it in such concepts as "political culture" without
which I couldn't do much inter-cultural and comparative government work.
        The rest of your question would take all night to answer and I'm
not sure I could even do it justice.  We are all ignorant, I believe, the
only difference is in the degree.  For in the "kingdom of the blind, the
one-eyed man is king."


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>
+ - Re: Anti-semitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

paul ) wrote:
:  Adam wrote:

: >You were asking in what ways anti-semitism manifests itself in Hungary. I
have
: >lived in BUdapest most of my life, so I can only speak for Budapest, but
: >considering that a fifth of the Hungarian population lives there Budapest is
: >quite significant. So, if you ever get a chance to, walk around in different
: >areas of Budapest wearing a well visible Star of David on your necklace.
: >Compare the reactions you get with the reactions you get if you do the same
: >thing wearing a 3-inch-long cross! I guarantee, that you will notice the
: >.
: >.
: >                                                        Adam


: To understand how up to date this is, can I ask how recently you lived in
: Budapest?  I ask because I assume you do not live there now since your e-mail
: address is a U.S. address: 
:                                                  ^^^

: Does anyone know if this is still the case now, or is this old information?
: If so, I'm surprised, since I was reading in a Hungarian hhistory book that
: before WWII, and possibley before WWI, when American Jews were trying to
: stir up touble among Hungarian Jews, the Hungarian Jews responded that,
: whatever you do in the case of Hungary, do it to help the whole country,
: but do not cause trouble here (more or less).  I can look up the name of the
: book if anyone cares - I think it is a common one everyone would know about
: or own.  My impression from the few pages I read was that religous tension
: was minor.

: Paul

a few hours ago i spoke with a family friend in budapest to pass on
some news to her. i asked her about anti-semitism in hungary. she said
it is a common occurrence and that she was recently witness to a scene
on the trolley-bus which she says is similar to others she has witnessed
often enough to cause her concern. a young fellow approached an elderly
lady and said "de kar hogy a ferjet egetek el, es nem magat." the woman
who was reporting the incident didn't know whether she should have
intervened or not. she was scared.


d.a.
+ - Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Marc asks, inter alia, why "Franco's Spain, Pinnochet's [sic] Chile...Papa/
Baby Doc's Haitie, Hussein's Irak [sic] and so on..." would not be considered
totalitarian.  Also, "How about Europe in the middle ages?"

As part of the answer, Marc wonders if technology played a significant role in
sustaining the Third Reich and the Soviet Union.

Great questions, and a great answer--most political scientists, at any rate,
see communications and weapons technology as central not merely to *sustaining*
true totalitarian regimes, but as making them possible in the first place.
 E.g.even Arendt hedges her bets about the Third Reich, arguing that it became
fully totalitarian only with the start of WWII and the increasingly technologi-
cally sophisticated and successful campaign to exterminate the Jews.

Arendt, and others, also add "mass" terror as an essential ingredient of
 totali-tarianism, with such terror defined as the application, on a mass scale
 and
against literally innocent victims, of of extreme psychological and physical
 coer- .
cion.  The key term for Arendt is "mass," and she argues that true totalitari-
anism requires a huge poplulation base (on the order of Germany, the USSR,
China) to generate a sufficient number of victims.

Thus, most of the cases that Marc adduces would be excluded by most mainstream
political scientists because the cases do not meet either the technological
criterion or the mass numbers criterion.

Which leaves the intriguing case of Iraq under Saddam Hussein.  I am persuaded
that Saddam's regime was well on the way to becoming totalitarian, as measured
by his use against mass numbers of innocent victims of such technologically
sophisticated coercion as poison gas, as well as by his military expansionism
(another of Arendt's criteria) against first Iran, and then Kuwait.  Like the
Third Reich, but unlike Stalin's USSR, Saddam's totalitarianism was brought to
a halt by military defeat, but as the recent events demonstrate, this may be
only temporary, until the regime is completely destroyed in war or Saddam dies
or is killed.

The one other puzzling case is Shaka's Zulu kingdom, where the technological
criterion does not apply (its absence was a major cause of his defeat by the
Brits), but where mass terror, military expansionism, and (Arendt's and others'
fourth criterion) ideology appear to be present.

I suppose one's position on these issues comes down to where one fits in
anthropology's (*not* political science's) famous two camps--the "lumpers"
and the "splitters."  In Shaka's case, does the absence of the technological
criterion split his system off from totalitarianism?  Or does the presence of
several the other criteria require that he be lumped in with the 20th century
totalitarian systems?

As they used to say in the shtetls of Eastern Europe, "gey weyss"--go figure!

Udv.,
Be'la

+ - Re: Anti-semitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Surely Jeliko is being disingenuous in suggesting that because there are
many Jews in the current government of Hungary, many Jews still live in
the country by choice, etc., there cannot be anti-Semitism in Hungary.

If I were to argue that because there are many African-Americans in
positions of power and influence at all levels of American government and
many African-Amricans continue to live in this country by choice, there can-
not be racism in America, would Jeliko's response be any different?

Udv.,
Be1la

+ - Re: Collapse of Communism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe asks re totalitarianism--
>So where would youput North Korea and Fidel's Cuba?

Good question--Cuba, I think, most political scientists would exclude for
any number of reasons.  N. Korea is a harder case--many if not most of
the criteria for totalitarianism appear to apply, except for relentless
expansionism.  I would also argue that the number of innocent victims is
too small to qualify for inclusion--this is *not* a moral judgement on the
suffering of the victims, but a classificatory judgement.

Udv.,
Be1la

+ - Re: Anti-semitism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Adam G's response:

>Firstly, it rarely happens that somebody tries to beat you up 'cause you have
>bad breath.

    Sorry, but in your prior posts you did not hint about physical assaults
as manifestation of anti-semitism. I was reading it as some kind of negative
attitude toward Jews only, with nothing as tangible as beating up. I suppose
such attacks would be extensively reported not only in the Hungarian papers
but abroad as well. While I've read about several attacks on the Gypsies but
I only recall one on a Jewish girl, by some skinheads.

>Secondly, I do believe that it DOES indicate the general idea
>people have about Jews if you get negative reactions (remarks, etc.) if you
>make your ethnicity visible.

    Hardly. It only indicates that some people, especially skinheads, have
that problem. I still have my doubt though that display of a Star of David
would cause such reaction in many places in Hungary. I've been to Hungary
many times and used public transportation with people around me who
showed obvious signs of Jewishness and I never noticed the kind of
reactions you are alluding to. So I think what we have here is the belief
of many Jews that they are hated than the actual physical manifestation
of hatred against them. Just remember how many Holocaust survivors swore
in Israel that they recognized John Demyaniuk as the camp guard "Ivan the
Terrible" when he wasn't even in that camp at all.

> You do have a point that there are Jews who are
>prejudiced against Gentiles, but that certainly does not change the fact that
>there are anti-semitic Gentiles! The phenomenon is present on both sides, and
>the presence on one side does not eliminate the presence on the other side.

   OK, I'll go along with that. I do not deny there are anti-semitic Hungarians
(just as there are anti-semitic Americans, etc.), but that hardly calls for
declaring Hungarians anti-semitic, in general. That's what I've been
reading here in the Hungarian list though from certain participants almost
constantly.
                                                            Matt
+ - Re: TOTALITARIANISM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg got it right in one beautifully-phrased shot!  Bravo!

Be1la

+ - Re: Red terror & White terror (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg:

Regarding that excerpt from the "A History of Hungary" ...

> Strangely, I couldn't find any reference to a "Red Terror" anywhere
> in the book.

Right.  You have to make allowance for the time the book was published
and the authors.  Well, at least Berend.

Joe
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg:

> The Pataki Record
> conservative on fiscal issues, crime; moderate on
> social issues, environment

Thanks for taking the time to get that background on Pataki.
He sounds to me like a highly electable guy.  Let's hope he beats
Cuomo.

In September I spent a few days in New Jersey (yes, Bill, I was in
Upper Montclair again!) where I saw him on TV a few times.  He even
looks good on the tube, too. ;-)

Joe
+ - Re: October 23 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Congrats, Eva, for the find!

> Tomorrow is October 23, 1994, a new national holiday. And today I received a
> gift for the day--surprisingly from a page from *168 ora." It was a picture
> taken on October 23, 1956, around 2 p.m. at the Peto3fi Square--a bunch of
> ELTE students standing around waiting to form the rows of ten in which we
> marched from Peto3fi Square to Bem Square arm in arm. This picture had not
> yet been earlier published.

What an interesting coincidence!  I was just going over some English
language books about the '56 revolution which were full with photos of
the events.  There is this book called "Cry Hungary! Uprising 1956" by
Reg Gadney and guess where I opened it!?  It was page 19, with a huge
photo with marchers, holding up a big sign that read:

     Eotvos Lorand
    TUDOMANYEGYETEM

The picture is quite sharp and could be the one you are referring to.
Which, of course, means that it HAS BEEN published before.

Could it be the same one?
I sure would like to find out if you are on it and which one.

> Asking you to think of those days,

Indeed!

Joe
+ - Re: Governor's race New York (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Glen wanted to know whether Pataki is a liberal Republican or a hypocritical
Republican.

I'd say the former, given the gurgling ideological lava pit that the GOP is
turning into. With Christy Whitman on one side of the scale and the Christian
Coalition on the other, it will be interesting to see what that mess looks
like when it all shakes out. IMHO, I think that all the tax-cut sabre rattling
may be good politics, but I would prefer good numbers. As for social issues,
if the far right succeeds in taking over the Republican party, I wouldn't be
surprised to see another big party shift.

As for Pataki, I like to think he would be independent-minded and act on his
principles, as Giuliani sometimes appears to, but then I go hot and cold with
him, and sometimes I can't figure out what he's up to.

Regards,
Marc Nasdor


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