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Copyright (C) HIX
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1 Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
2 Security Alternatives in Central Europe (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: the 7 magyar tribes (megkovetlek, Istvan) (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: George Soros Founds Charter Europe (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: American scams made it to Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Looking for Hungarian-English Dictionary (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Some little known historical facts (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Some little known historical facts (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Közvetlen demokrácia (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Some little known historical facts (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Some little known historical facts (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
14 Wake up Peter (Was:Wake up Yuri, and look around you! (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Kommunista Kina vasarolt amerikai elnokot (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar ? (Was: Istvannak (mind)  245 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Kommunista Kina vasarolt amerikai elnokot (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Kommunista Kina vasarolt amerikai elnokot (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
19 CORRESPONDENCE WITH NOBLE (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Romanians (mind)  647 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


>Andrei Popov > wrote:
>I would also never agree that Russian leaders MUST always follow
>opinion polls - we are not in USA, thank God.

God has nothing to do with it. And what is there exactly
to be thankful for? I didn't expect you to say that --
sounds like you adore autocratic rulers like neo-commie Yeltsin.

+ - Security Alternatives in Central Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Information NO. 3

Res publica, 
association for information

Prague, March 1997

has great pleasure in inviting you
to the international seminary
Security Alternatives in Central Europe
The purpose of the seminary is reflection on the prospects and searches for
alternatives, making possible assurance of the security not only of the
Czech Republic, but also of her neighbours and the whole area in a
situation following changes occurred in 1989 and further development,
comprending the context with the now assumed expansion of NATO.
 Prague, Czech Republic
9-10 April, 1997
QED, Stepanska 18, Prague 1

Co-organizer of the seminary is the magazine Eurojournale, a monthly for
development of trade and international relations (Czech Republic) and Nino
Pasti Foundation (Italy).

Stanislav Kliment
Association chairman
Jiri Horak, Ph. D.
Association vice-chairman

Information on the seminary 
Security Alternatives in Central Europe

The civic association Res, publica, association for information, is an
independent non-profit organization, focused on dissemination of
information from the field of politics, law and economy among its members
and public and  intends also to contribute to the understanding of the
importance of information for decisive processes in the evolution of the
 The seminary with the international participation on the topic Security
Alternatives In Central Europe is to be held on 9 and 10 April this year in
Prague (Stepanska 18, QED). The first day from 14.00 up to approx. 19.00,
the second day from 10.00 up to approx 14.00 hours.
The seminary is moderated by Jiri Holub, the former CSFR Ambassador in
The objective of organizers is to provide the participation of bearers of
alternative opinions from neighbouring states (i.e. particularly Austria,
Slovakia, Poland, Germany), further from Italy, France, Great Britain,
Benelux, Finland, Ukraine or Russia. Other participants will be
personalities from the Czech Republic.
The working languages are Czech and English and the contributions of
participants are to be interpreted into these languages.
All contributions will be subsequently made accessible in Internet. (The
organizer would be pleased to acquire the text of the performance in
advance through the agence of e-mail, or in the course of the seminary on a
diskette.) Moreover the contributions will be published in the monthly
The most appropriate communication with the organizer is through the agency
of e-mail "", or by fax  +420+2+24216791.
The information on your e-mail address, so that we could keep you informed,
will be welcome.
+ - Re: the 7 magyar tribes (megkovetlek, Istvan) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Istvan Lippai" > wrote:
>Nem is tudtam, hogy ilyen oreg vagy.

Oreg a nagyapad! :-))
Ugy latszik, hogy megis MIND egy malomban orolunk.
+ - Re: George Soros Founds Charter Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:26:20 +0000, Ines Weber > wrote:
>It was in Irving, but yes, you are quite correct.  Did you knew that
>they have now a Cistercian Prep. School for boys, for which there are
>already extremely long waiting lists?

Yes, Irving, indeed!  I was just staying at Grapevine at the time.

>Can you remember any particular names of fathers there?

Gee, after 20 some years, it's kinda' hard, but let's see ...

Anzelm Nagy and Lajos Lekai come to mind.  I don't know if you've known

>As for myself, I am trying to prepare my son to take the test for that
>school and my daughter already believes to have decided to go to college
>there (well, they know that it would please me, of course)

Well, you've obviously raised them right! <grin>

Joe Pannon
REMINDER: Please correct my e-mail address in any personal reply by
removing the "antiSPAM." part from it.  I have altered the address
in the hope of defeating address grabbing SPAM software.  Thanks, JP
+ - Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Yuri Omelchenko 
rnell.edu> writes:
|> [...] Ironically, Western Ukrainians must thank Stalin 
|> after all for _their_ dream come true --- otherwise they would be now 
|> Polish Ukrainians. :-)

Congratulations on a fine sense of irony. What else should
the Ukrainians thank Stalin for? Should they also thank Stalin
for not starving them all to death, but only a few million of them?

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wojciech R. Rypniewski		tel: +49-40-89902142
EMBL c/o DESY			fax: +49-40-89902149
Notkestrasse 85			E-mail: 
D-22603 Hamburg, Germany	WWW: http://www.embl-hamburg.de/~Wojtek/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: American scams made it to Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> This is one aspect of market oriented system that Hungary does not need
> to adapt. 

Is this called the 'pigeon drop' scheme?

Sajnos mar a 'piramid' is nagyon elterjedt Magyarorszagon.  Arrol is tudok,
hogy kulombozo uzleti es tozsdei befektetesekkel is atvagjak az othoniakat.
 Ami meg szomorubb az, hogy a legtobb ilyen szelhamos az kulfoldi 'magyar',
aki kihasznalja a zavaros helyzetett othon.  Nem csoda ha sok othoni magyar
nem nagyon kedveli a kulfoldi magyarokat.

Meg az a szerencsenk, hogy a legtobb othoni magyar nem olvassa a magyar
listakat.  Akkor aztan tenyleg szoba se alnanak velunk.

+ - Re: Looking for Hungarian-English Dictionary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Stuart Makagon wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a good Hungarian-English dictionary?
> --
>  (Stuart Makagon)

Try this: 

+ - Re: Some little known historical facts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 14 Mar 1997 10:15:25 GMT,  (Gustav Horvath)

>> the uncivilised and uncultured
>> Turks (whatever culture you've got you got it from the Arabs, a civilised
>> people) 

>According to Rodney Castledens World History, in 410 AD the  Huns (the 
>forerunners of the Turks and HUN/-/GARIANS) introduced trousers, which replace
>togas and stirrups for horse-riding.It seems to me quite obvious that these 
>"uncivilized and uncultured" people had more urge to prevent their private par
>from hanging out than their "civilized" counterparts whom kept falling off of 
>their horses and in this process evidently showed "who was the man".
>Cheers, Gustav   

The Huns were not the forerunners of the Turks at all.  They had
nothing to do with each other.  This is an absurd notion.

Stirrups were used earlier than that.  

As for trousers, check Trajan's columns and you will find that by the
beginning of the 2nd century AD Roman troops were wearing trousers
which were "borrowed" from the Celts as were the helmets and the
typical legionnaire shield..
+ - Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "John  Walker" <jhnw
> writes:
|> Strategic leverage could be gained if talks could start immediately
|> between  Poland, Hungary, Ukrain, and Czeck (et al) towards the
|> formation of a federal coalition between their sovereign countries.  
|> The idea is to form a  benvolent union which is much as had been 
|> formed to create the Republic of Poland in A.D. 1618; consisting of Poland,
|> Byeloruss, Lithuania, Prussia, and Livonians.  

Much has been done to demean the idea a confederation of states
in Central Europe. Such an alliance would be against the interests
of both Russia and the West who have always treated Central Europe
as an arena for their rivalry. Especially Russian and Prussian
historians went out of their way to portrait the past Commonwealth
of Poland, Lithania and Rus (today's Ukraine and Belarus) in the worst
possible light. Stupidly, various local nationalists have been doing
the same.

It is stupid, because Central Europe with a sense od identity and some
kind of political and militaty structure would easily be powerfull
enough to put a stop to the continued attempts of both Russia
and and West to treat Central Europe as no more than their sphere
of influence.

Belarus is probably a lost cause. It is well on their way towards being
swallowed up by Russia. On the other hand, Ukrainians have a strong
sense of identity and a similar, if worse, geopolitical situation to
Poland. If prejudice and past differences can be overcome, Poland and
Ukraine should be natural allies.

A strategic alliance between the two countries would be enough to stop
outside interference, while internally neither of the two would
be strong enough to dominate the other.

Ukraine is vitally important to Poland's security. More important
than NATO. As long as there is independent Ukraine, Poland is save
from the East. If, on the other hand, Poland was seriously threatened
by Russia, the West would no doubt betray Poland once again, NATO or not.
Poland had military guaranties from the West before. They turned out
not to be worth the paper they were written on. It is extremely naive
to think that next time Western guaranties would turn out to be more

Would the West send their soldiers to die for Bialystok? They most
certainly would not! And Poland's enemies know it very well.
Risking all defending Poland is such an absurd idea to the Western mind
that we Poles should just forget it. Once and for all. Let's stop being
naive and face the hard truth and then think calmly and without
illusions what we can really do to protect ourselves.

In a world where self-interest is dominant (as always) the most logical
way for Poland to behave is to look for allies among countries with
similar concerns and interests to our own. It is in Poland's interest
to support independent Ukraine and vice versa. Mutual interest is
the strongest possible basis for a meaningfull alliance. Other, smaller
countries in the region might be tempted to join such an allience,
once they saw that they can gain from it.

The logic seems clear. Now if only logic were the dominant force
in our wretched region.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wojciech R. Rypniewski		tel: +49-40-89902142
EMBL c/o DESY			fax: +49-40-89902149
Notkestrasse 85			E-mail: 
D-22603 Hamburg, Germany	WWW: http://www.embl-hamburg.de/~Wojtek/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
One should never believe any experiment
until it has been confirmed by theory.     - Sir Arthur Eddington
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: Some little known historical facts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gustav Horvath ) wrote:
: ""Marina Robb" > writes:
: snip
: > the uncivilised and uncultured
: > Turks (whatever culture you've got you got it from the Arabs, a civilised
: > people) 
: snip
: According to Rodney Castledens World History, in 410 AD the  Huns (the 
: forerunners of the Turks and HUN/-/GARIANS) introduced trousers, which replac
: togas and stirrups for horse-riding.It seems to me quite obvious that these 
: "uncivilized and uncultured" people had more urge to prevent their private pa
: from hanging out than their "civilized" counterparts whom kept falling off of
: their horses and in this process evidently showed "who was the man".
: Cheers, Gustav   

Think you'll find that the ancient Persians got there first - the Celts too
indulged in trousers

+ - Re: Közvetlen demokrácia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Erika Kiss > wrote 
Lippai Istvan:
> > >     Persze igazad van, de az a baj, hogy nem tudok jobbat az
Erika Kiss:
> Szerintem pedig van jobb, vagy legalábbis remélem hogy megvalosul a jobb.

> Most még ugyan rendkivül futurisztikusnak és naivnak hangzik ez 

Sajnos az elmelet es gyakorlat kozott nagyon nagy a kulombseg.  Nem hiszem,
hogy sokan gondoltak volna, hogy milyen pusztitast fog a kommunizmus
okozni.  Amikor Hitlert megvalasztottak akkor a nemetek se arra gondoltak,
hogy a fel vilaggal haboruzni fognak.  

Amikor a kozvetlen demokraciaba tull balra megy a lengo (mint most) akkor
az emberek  megcsomorlodnek a kihakasoktol es meglokik a lengot jobbra.  Az
tovabb megy jobbra mint az atlag ember szeretne es meglokik....

Addig amig vannak alkotmanyos garanciak az emberek alapveto jogaik
vedesere, a lengo nem tudd tul menni se jobbra se balra (szerintem most
nagyon balra ment).

+ - Re: Some little known historical facts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Andy Fear) writes:

> Think you'll find that the ancient Persians got there first - the Celts too
> indulged in trousers
> Andy
You might be very well right there, but the argument was about something else.
Also about the Celts; read on.
Cheers, Gustav
+ - Re: Some little known historical facts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D.) writes:

> The Huns were not the forerunners of the Turks at all.  They had
> nothing to do with each other.  This is an absurd notion.
>This is an absurd notion.

Well, I wouldn't say that. They were horsemen like them, shaved their heads lik
them, came from the same direction like them, had reflex bows and were excellen
marksmen just like them. Just to mention a few. This time I try not get very 
involved in this delicate family matter. However the main similarity that shoul
not escape our attention and what I tried to refer to was this: They were just 
as much fiercly opposed to (should we say) the "western civilization"  (whateve
it meant that time) - as it did towards them.

>Stirrups were used earlier than that.
By whom ? A book titled the First Horsemen, (pub. 1974) lectored by Professor J
K. Anderson (of Berkley)  the author of several books (one is being Ancient 
Greek Horsemanship and Military Theory ... etc.)  places the appereance of the 
stirrups even closer to our time, "not until the sixth century" . 

>As for trousers, check Trajan's columns and you will find that by the
>beginning of the 2nd century AD Roman troops were wearing trousers
>which were "borrowed" from the Celts as were the helmets and the
>typical legionnaire shield..
Well I think Professor Castleden (Head of Humanities at Roedean School in 
England) really wasn't refering to  experiments that of some adventure hungry 
military personel in an other barbaric (?) land. But strangely enough the Celts
were indeed the "forerunners" of the Huns in this manner: they were running fro
them as far and as fast it just possible was. Nobody could run any further that
time than the isles. Nonetheless it was a valid contact. Would you guesstimate 
then from whom those Celts got the trousers idea?
Anyway, I think what Prof. C. meant to say is this: "In 410 AD. Huns 
introduce(d) trousers which replace(d) togas (and other skirt like garments, *t
the general public of Europe*.) 
(All brackets mine.) 
Gustav ;-)>
+ - Wake up Peter (Was:Wake up Yuri, and look around you! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter > writes:

> Nothing _remotely_ close happened in E.Europe. Don't give me Hungary'56
> and
> Prague'68 - these were minor incidents. Most of the E. Europe
> collaborated
> with Soviets, more or less, just like they collaborated with nazies
> (BTW,
> you name sounds Croatian to me. If you are Croatian, you must know a lot
> about collaboration with nazies).

In this posting not only your bias is apparent but mentioning Hungary '56 and 
Prague '68 in the same sentence also shows that you don't know shit from honey.
There is no comparison at all! I do not know much about the other Horvath but 
despite the sounding of my name I AM Hungarian. I do not care for neither nazis
or commies. It is too bad though that (similarly to other spreaders of this kin
of crap) you don't have the guts to disclose your FULL NAME. In that case at 
least we could pass some judgements about your ancestors as well.
+ - Re: Kommunista Kina vasarolt amerikai elnokot (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter Aradi > wrote
> Melyik Amerikai elnok csinalt beket Kommunista Kinaval? - Richard Nixon.
> (Republican)
> Melyik Amerikai elnok kapott egy ket millio dollaros honorariumot ket
> beszedert visszavonulasa utan Japantol?  -  Ronald Reagan. (Republican)
> Melyik volt Amerikai elnok volt Kommunista Kina legnagyobb Amerikai
> baratja a
> nyolcvanas evekben? - Volt elnok es Amerika Kinai nagykovetje George
> Busch.
> (Republican).


Osszekevered a Nixon kinai diplomaciajat amit azert csinalt, hogy a meg
akkor nagyon veszejes szovjet befojas ellen eggyensulyozzon.  Ezt amerika
erdekebe, es nem penzert csinalta.

Reagan mar nem volt elnok, es mint privat polgar ment japanba.  Nem
amerikat, hanem sajat magat kepviselte.  Japan, Amerika szovetsegesse. 

Busch megint amerika erdekeit kepviselte, es nem adta el magat a kinaiaknak

Az a problema Clinton-nal, hogy o eladta magat a kinaiaknak azert, hogy
legyen penze az elnoki valasztasra.  Van aki ezt meg hazaarulasnak is
nevezne.  Ugy tudom, hogy teknikailag nem lehet a Clinton cselekedetet
hazaarulasnak venni, mert Amerika nincs haboruban.  De azert nagyon piszkos

Remeleg ez a magyarazat segitett neked.

Udv: Istvan
+ - Re: Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar ? (Was: Istvannak (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gustav Horvath ) wrote:
: Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar?
: In our view the Magyars are (similarly to todays Jews, where we can see a rat
: wide scale of skin colors from the Scandinavian blonde to the Etiopian ebony 
: black) not a race. "Nem a faj hanem a fajta !"
easiest qualifier is to identify "magyar" as a culture. the race stuff moves 
into dark areas reminiscent of biologic species identification... 
don't go there! (btw, who is the "our view"?)

: This is due to the ancient 
: Turanian habit that amalgamated the remaining members of most defeated enemy 
: nations into their own victorious nation. You see, the melting pot is not rea
: an American invention! It was excercised by our  "barbarian" ancestors thousa
: of years ago.
does this paradigm reflect the "unamalgamated" natives? i don't think 
so... they were excluded from the Am melting pot because of genocide!

: Here I would answer the earlier question about the mentioned seven 
: chieftains. To know their names might be good, but an other aspect would be e
: more interesting. Those chieftains were not the leaders of seven Magyar tribe
: but leaders of one way or the other related but different "nations". The majo
: tribe, (the fighters) were, of course the Magyars.
it's a nice myth, but "tribal" society is *very* different from "kingdoms"... 
the former gather together against a common alien enemy. the latter governs 
through class organization and taxation, and it is *always* prepared for enemy 
invasion at its boundaries. also, one is nomadic, the other is more-or-less

: The number seven in this 
: legend is somewhat questionable. This legend was put into writing well after 
: this happened, so my opinion is that this number might be the result of their
: new religions' kaballistic tradition. In reality the starting number was ten.
: Hence onogur=ten tribes. The supposed seven tribes only merged into those ten
: that were already in the Carpathean basin. This also explains why are we name
: in the West as Ungar-isch, H-ungar-ian, etc., while in East where one time we
: were more recognized, people casually refer to us as madzsar-i.
historically generalized, but a probably very accurate interpretation of what 
happened... your linguistic examples are convincing... nice!

: The first well known act (that should be re-read ) is the legend of the 
: "Csodaszarvas"  this would shed some light amongs others on the "finn-ugor" 
: (ogur ?) connection.  
wishful thinking of a long-lost spoken-word legend... who knows?

: We also had the "Jasz"-Persian and the "Kun" aka. Kumani aka. Kipchak-Turks 
: peoples incorporated, not to speak about the tribe of S-K-L aka. Sikil or as 
: is better known today Szekely.
more wishful thinking of longer-lost symbolic legends... we know less about 
this, than we do do about the white buck...

: I would also hypothesize that after the 150 yrs. 
: long Ottoman rule we got a rather good portion of Turkish blood into our 
: "circulatory system".
curious that there is not one established Islam community in hungary! i've 
never figured out why. i guess we should ask the orthodox catholics about 
this?... DA!

: Our fathers before their settlement have lived for a very 
: long time in the neighbourhood of peoples who followed monotheotic faiths. Th
: explains the undisputable fact that amongst Arpad's people not only the 
: Shamanistic but the also Christian (as a matter of fact a more pure version o
: it, than the one that was forced upon them all, later on ) and also the Islam
: and the Judaistic faiths were represented as well.
i suggest we examine pre-christian folklore for an answer to this perplexing 
problem. i know of several (10-20) tales without reference to christianity, 
these may give deeply rooted clues about our culture prior to conversion. 
however, to do this right we must exclude all post-conversion interpretations, 
which makes this task immense both linguistically and academically. (i like the

: So to be a Magyar is nothing 
: else than an ideology  reinforced by a unique language and culture requiring 
: sympathy and some commitment to our the endless struggle to survive.
that's probably true of all cultures, so without hesitation, i believe it true 
about the magyar culture...

: If all of 
: these are not enough to "prove" the melting pot theory than let's review abou
: the  "side-benefits" of the Austro-Hungarian dual monarchy. 
that is one *huge* leap! The historical influence of the austro's 
(HappyBurgers, et al) upon the magyar culture must be excluded in all facets
of defining a magyar heritage... in other words, why bother?

: First I would mention our friend Mr. Lippai's  favorite writer Geza Ziegler w
: received his teachers certificate in 1882.  He might be better known tough by
: his pen-name: Geza Gardonyi. Then I should mention the son of Sandor Petrovic
: and Ilona Hruz. (I hope everybody still knows who he was ! ) Then comes Lajos
: Kossuth the son of a Slovak father and a German mother; -or what about Mihaly
: Tancsics or the large parts of the Martyrs of Arad. Not to mention the fact t
: the "Greatest Hungarian" was more than thirty years of age when he finally 
: deserted the German language and the Austrian royal ghetto and acquired the 
: language of his ancestors.
beam me up! what are you talking about? next will be Count Eszterhazy... 
please stay in focus! These folk are your temporal partners, as far or close 
to the white stag as i am today. They, in toto must remain excluded from any 
examination of what makes for a magyar!

: If we fly back in time even more here come the 
: Zrinyi, Frangepan and Rakoczi families and also Mathias Corvinus and his fath
: Janos/Jank(o) Hunyadi, just to mention a few. All of these people and many mo
: proved that despite their German, Slovakian, Croatian and God knows what othe
: origin they had a real Hungarian heart that felt for their country.
they felt central european *nationalism*, which is NOT the same thing as 
cultural identification. the former is seeking power, the latter peace which 
was disrupted and possibly destroyed by the former.

: If they 
: could prove this let's hope that some of the Galicians that came to us 
: could/would follow their examples. During the more than thousand years long 
: fight unfortunately the most courageous, the most heroic and most patriotic 
: section in our nation was decimated or left the country. This caused the sorr
: state we are presently in.
i totally and sadly agree with you!

: However  Providence takes care that even the most 
: degenerated part of the species carry the genes of their better forefathers. 
: Knowing this our case is not lost while in our blood still pulsates and in ou
: genes burns the ancient Turan.
you *must* review the words you use! there is a very clear definitional 
difference between "genotypic" and "phenotypic" behaviour in both biological 
and linguistic/socio activity. Again i sense what you mean, but darn it, it 
does sound racist!

: The other cardinal point of this exercise is Hungary/Magyarorszag. As we have
: seen this day and age the defining fact for our country not so much the origi
: of it's population, but rather their attachment and maintenance to their 
: language and unique culture, and also the common goals that keep them togethe
this *is* definitional and accurate for all cultures, including magyar. 
right-on, it's something we tend to be ashamed of, so if your "cardinal" point 
is to develop/nurture our pride as what we "really" are, so much the better.
Let's expend our energies to reveal what magyar really is, but not at the 
diminishing of those who screwed us over in the past (including misguided 
magyars who mistook identity with nationalism)

: This is best represented by the national flag and the (supposed)
: oath to that national flag. That is after all what flags were invented for.
: The only question is: what flag ? No doubt the presently used crowned nationa
: crest was welcomed in Hungary because of it's long hiatus and banishment from
: the part of the former communist goverments and it's long unrequested America
: presence .
pieces of colored cloth is *not* what i have in mind, but whatever... if that 
gets your attention, i'll live with it proudly

: However it would be high time to recognize that (except from the 
: short period in the recent past when the Hungarian Kingdom had no king at all
: in real life this crown and all it represents is alien from this nation.
i'll never forget laughing for hours about Otto stepping back onto the court 
of national basketball... gimme Michael Jordan or Rodman anyday, besides they 
have more money... oh, let's not forget the new wannabe slam-dunker Soros. 
Right, let's do the do to a new king! please....

: From 
: the very beginning it represented interests different from that of the nation
: just as much in the past as it does today. In parallel it is interesting to 
: recall how the communist constitution was forced upon the people in a blink o
: an eye by Rakosi and his cronies, but so far (almost a decade's time after th
: demise of the communist system) was not a chance to get rid of it.
gone like a cool breeze... yes, it affected our lives big time, but guess what,
magyarorszag still persists, watch it from the 50-yard line, it'll continue, 
our only concern should be *how* it will be in the future!

: Just as much 
: as we have a need for a new constitution, based on our real culture, traditio
: our prefered way of life and national interest we need an other national symb
: that is not based on any ideology. Neither the red-star that tried to grab fi
: continents  nor the symbol of the religious based trojan-horse of western 
: imperialism. This wish was recognized by our wise elders who deleted it in 18
: 1946 and in 1956 as well. This view is further reinforced by the fact that it
: "issuer" would not even stand by it's only benefit ie. the recognizing the ru
: over the lands it was "issued" for. Also a follower of a Reformed Christian 
: faith could never legally wear it since it virtually belonged not so much to 
: Magyars but to (a) follower(s) to the Church of Rome. Easy to see it would be
: more practical to choose a symbol that mutually acceptable to all of us. What
: could be more suitable for this than our only surviving national symbol of th
: western cultural slaughter -the TURUL. 
cute. you must be reformatus or evagelikus. good luck replacing a symbol of 
monarchy (incl the hand of St Stephen) with a black vulture! Get real. The 
change *must* happen in the awakening of the hungarian spirit sans the Church
influence. We fight both history and established religion in this awakening.
Let's start very simply. How many pre-Christian Hungarian folktale books have 
been published, and made available? You gotta get the idea through to people 
lest you waste your (and my) time in this fantasy...

: I urge everyone who is somewhat concerned to recognize and consider the above
: The door (as it has always been) is open. 
: Whoever wants to join in and say the oath, be welcomed; 
: -for others the door is also open.
FIRST one must believe, then comes the "oath"

: Gustav Horvath
: Turanian Association 

nice thinkies!

janos sz
+ - Re: Kommunista Kina vasarolt amerikai elnokot (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Lippai wrote:
> Most mar keves a ketseg, hogy Kommunista Kina hatalmas osszegekkel
> tamogatta Clinton es a demokratak megvalasztasat.  Remelhetoleg, hamarossan
> kineveznek egy fuggetlen ugyeszt es ennek a piszkos dolognak minden reszet
> meg fogjuk tudni.  Nagyon valoszinu, hogy az Amerikai-Kinai politikat ezek
> a hatalmas osszegek meglehetosen befolyasoltak.  Kit szolgal Clinton,
> Amerikat vagy Kinat?
> Az is lehet, hogy Clinton-t nem is rugjak ki a hivatalabol, de nem marad
> semmi erkolcsi ereje kormanyzasra.  Ilyen korulmenyek kozott Amerika nem
> lessz kepes a vilag vezeto szerepet betolteni es varhatunk kissebb nagyobb
> zavart az egesz vilagon.
> Miert erdekelne ez a magyarokat?
> Ha egy idegen hatalom meg tudja venni a vilag leghatalamassabb kormany
> elnoket, mit tudnak vagy tudtak az idegen erdekek, bunozok, Magyarorszagon
> venni es tenni?
> Istvan

Melyik Amerikai elnok csinalt beket Kommunista Kinaval? - Richard Nixon.

Melyik Amerikai elnok kapott egy ket millio dollaros honorariumot ket
beszedert visszavonulasa utan Japantol?  -  Ronald Reagan. (Republican)

Melyik volt Amerikai elnok volt Kommunista Kina legnagyobb Amerikai
baratja a
nyolcvanas evekben? - Volt elnok es Amerika Kinai nagykovetje George


Aradi Peter
Tulsa, OK USA
+ - Re: Kommunista Kina vasarolt amerikai elnokot (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  wrote:

> dominaljak a szavazatokat.  Bush eppen egy gazdasagi pangas idejen
> kerult megmerettetesre, s ez lett a veszte.  A pangas ugyan nem volt
> olyan nagy, de Bush egy annyira szintelen, karakter nelkuli elnok volt,
> akihez meg a republikanus szavazok nagy tomegei sem voltak nagyon
> lojalisak.  Hol volt az o karizmaja Reaganhoz kepest!?  Azota sincs a
> republikanusoknak egy igazan jo svadaju vezeregyenisege.  Jack Kemp meg
> sokunknak nagy csalodast okozott.  Valoban van abban valami, hogy a

Szerintem ez az Antall-lal is elmondhato. Szegeny olyan szintelen es merev
volt - amihez a betegsege nyilvan nem segitett - hogy mellette meg a Horn
(aki jo messze esett a tudas fajatol es nem mondhato agyi csodagyereknek)
is normalisnak nezett ki. Aztan ott volt a Jeszenszky, akinek minden
harmadik szava az volt, hogy: ÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ.... Szegeny Gezat borzaszto volt

> republikanusoknal most mar csak valami jo noi jelolt johet szoba jo
> esellyel.

Hmmmmm...ezt eppen te mondod?

+ - CORRESPONDENCE WITH NOBLE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi friends,
I desire correspond with Noble of the Arabia, of Marocco, Emirates United
Arabs, Africans, Oman,
India, Qatar, Middle East, etc.
I answer all.
I am 17 years old and am Italian and alive in the City of Como. my Hobby is
the Heraldry, the history, the geography, the tennis, etc.

Thank you. 
Prince Giovanni Terzaghi y Pilo Boyl
+ - Re: NATO, the USA and Ukraine * Other considerations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Lukasz Rzepinski > wrote:
>>Strange, but Ukrainian military goverment offered Poland an alliance in 1991.
>>Eastern Ukraine don't love Poland in fact, but western understand Poland is
>>the only way to civilisation.

I'm not so sure about this. I recently returned from an extended business
trip to Uzhgorod, and from conversations with "ordinary" Ukrainian
citizens, am of the impression that the exact opposite is true. Western
Ukrainians (at least those I've spoken with) still seem to harbor deep
cultural resentment toward Poland.

Perhaps from a rational, economic standpoint, Poland is the only way to
civilization for Ukraine. But the history of human conflict hasn't been
fueled by rational decision-making processes, has it?:)

Just a thought...


David L. Pollacci
"When the student is ready...the teacher appears!"
+ - Re: Romanians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
n.com () writes:

> SiI guess it's quite brave assumption to root Romanians back to the Romans,
Hungarians back to Huns. About Gypsies: this minority comes from the exotic
India (you know, Maugli, elephants, tigers), as every (no matter what
  his or her nationality is) 12 years old child knows at least in Hungary,
and the rest of Europe. 
Please, don't fool yourself with quoting the hard-liner Romanian history-
books published by the great N. Chauchesco. So what I suggest is to look
around before you talk.
Andras Donaszi 
> From  Tue Mar 11 00:26:59 1997
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
> Date: 10 Mar 1997 20:16:21 GMT
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Lines: 646
> Message-ID: >
> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
> X-Admin: 
> There are some Huns (Hungarians) and other barbarians who has a complex of
> inferiority
> (mainly in a historical sense).
> These barbarians are trying desperately to show a connection between
> Romanians and 
> Rom ( Gypsy). For example the Hungarians ( Huns) insist that Gypsy should
> be called
> and spelled in a manner attracting confusion, that is:
> Romanies,Romani,Roma,etc.
> Whatever spelling approach they take Romanians still remain Romans,
> Gypsies remain
> Gypsies and Hungarians remain Huns.
> We should remained the barbarians that the Gypsies were enslaved in
> Romania and sold
> abroad to the Huns and others where they intermixed with the native
> papulation, creating
> a mixed race ( in the case of Hungary, a race of Huno-Gypsies).
> In Romania the opposite happened. The Romanians were punished by
> enslavement if 
> marry a Gypsy.
> Take a load of this from a Gypsy writer (David Crowe):
> "In the long course of the Gypsy experience in Eastern Europe, none has
> been worse than that in Romania.Within several centuries after Gypsies
> entered the medieval provinces of Wallachia and Moldavia, they began to be
> enslaved, a condition that lasted until the mid nineteenth century.
> Although slavery was not a condition peculiar to Gypsies or the Balkans at
> the time, the deep-seated, dehumanizing prejudice that has characterized
> the historic Romanian relationship with Gypsies produced a socioeconomic
> caste system that resulted in the "social death" of Gypsies as Romanian
> slaves"
> Ooo Baby Make my day.
> Some countries spell Romania with an "u" and some with an "a".
> Whatever the spelling is the Romanians are still descendants of the Romans
> not Huns 
> or other barbarians.
> Romanians spelled their name as Rumans for the period of time when
> Slavonic was used 
> as the language of the Church. Rumans being the correct spelling in
> Slavonic for Romans.
> Latter on when Slavonic was replaced by Latin the Romanians changed the
> "u" for "o" which 
> is very appropriate for a LATIN.
> TAKE A LOAD OF SOME GOOD STAFF( For the Huns and other barbarians to
> learn):
>                                                          (WALACHIANS)
> Note: In the following article I used Romanians (Vlachs ) = ROMANS. The "
> = " sign should be interpreted as: direct descendants of the Romans,
> people connected culturaly, racialy  to the Romans,
> (as it is suggested by the chronicles).
> The Romanians were known in the past as:
> VALACHUS (By the Catholic West)
> FLACI (By catholic West)
> IFLAK (By the Turks)
> VLASI & VOLOH (By the Slavs)
> OLAH &BLACH (By the Hungarians)
> OLAHOK (By the Hungarians)
> OLASZOK (The Hungarian name for the Italians)
> WALACH (By the Germans)
> WALSCHER (The German name for the Italians)
> BLACHOS & VLACHOS (By the Greeks)
> BLOCH (By the Saxons in Transilvania)
> WOLOSZY (By the Polish)
> WLOCHI (The Polish name for the Italians)
> In old German WALH = ROMAN
> In old slavonic VLAST = POWER(considered of Gothic origin)
> In old slavonic VLAST = GIGANTE/GOD
> Romanians always called themselves ROMANS & RUMANS.Their  neighbors called
> them Vlachs,Vlasi,Olahs,etc.
>>From "De administrando imperio".Constantine's surname, PORPHYROGENITUS
> (that is, born in the Purple Chamber of the Imperial Palace in
>  "The emperor Diocletian was much enamored of the country of Dalmatia, and
> he brought folk with their families from ROME and settled them in this
> same country of Dalmatia, and they were called ROMANI (VLACHS) from their
> having been removed from ROME, and this title attaches to them until this
> day..."
> "The territory possessed by the ROMANI (VLACHS) used to extend as far as
> the river Danube"
> (Constantine shows that the ROMANS (Latins, NOT Greek Romans or
> Byzantines) or Vlachs are the original Romans.
> "The country of the ZACHLUMI  was previously possessed by the ROMANS, I
> mean, by those ROMANI (VLACHS) whom Diocletian the emperor translated from
> (Constantine is talking about the Imperial Romans,who are going to be
> known under the name of VLACHS).
> "These same CROATS arrived to claim the protection of the emperor of the
> Romans Heraclius before the SERBS claimed the protection of the same
> emperor Heraclius, at that time when the Avars had fought and expelled
> from those parts the ROMANI (VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian had
> brought from Rome and settled there, and who were therefore called ROMANI
> (VLACHS) from their having been translated from ROME to those
> countries..."
> "The country of Diocleia was also previously possessed by the ROMANI
> (VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME"
> "And sice what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called Kanalites were
> under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries
> had been made desolate by the AVARS (for they had expelled from those
> parts the ROMANI (VLACHS) who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium)"
> "The country in which the PAGANI  now dwell was also previously possessed
> by the ROMANI(VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME and
> settled in Dalmatia".
> "At that time when the Avars had fought and expelled from those parts the
> ROMANI(VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian had brought from ROME and
> settled there,and who therefore called ROMANI from their having been
> translated from ROME to those countries"
> SUMMARY: In his description of the Greek Roman Empire,we can definitely
> identify two people,the Imperial Romans(VLACHS-those Romans  who initiated
> the empire),called by Constntine,ROMANI, and the Greek
> Romans(BYZANTINES-those Romans who adopted GREEK as the language of the
> State and Church).
> Giulio Ruggiero, Abbot ( in a report addressed to Pope PIUS 5, 1568).
> "..., Sono questi Vallachi per antica origine Italiani, per esser colonia
> de Romani, condotta da Flacco, la quale con vocabolo corrotto vogliono
> molti che siano detti Vallachi"
> Pierre Lescalopier, French lowyer (1574).After visiting Romanian
> Principalities.
> "Tout ce pays ( la Walacchie) et Moldauie et la plus part de Transiluanie
> a este peuple des colonies romaines du temps de Traian l'empereur; le
> capitaine se nommoit Flaccus qui a donne ce nom nouueau au pays de Flacchi
> et par glissement de langue Wlacchie. Ceux du pays se disent vrays
> successeurs des Romains et nomment leur parler romanechte c'est a dire
> romain; la plus part de leurs parolles sont demies italiennes et demies
> latines meslees de grec et de baragouin. Ilz ont en fort grande horreur le
> pape et l'Eglise romaine et honorent comme Dieu leurs vaiuodatz"
> Giovani  Francesco Commendone (1523-1584), Prist. Presents a short
> description to Pope Grigore 13,   about the origins of the Vlachs.
> "Valachia, id est Italia, vocatur veloc enim Italum Sarmathae siscunt, nam
> Valochi non modo disciplinae romanae mores et leges ceras hactenus
> retinent, sed ipsa quoque latinae linguae vocabula plurima suo idiomate,
> quod illiricum est, admiserunt..."
> Antonio Possevino (1533-1611), Episcope. In his mission to Transylvania
> writes a report to Pope Grigore 13.
> "Principi di Moldavia et Vallachia, poiche sono discesi da ROMANI, dei
> quali ancora ritengono il nome, et, come si spera, anco l'amore..."
> Ferrante Capeci (1549-1589), Napolitan Prist.
> "E la Transilvania habitata da tre sorti di persone, et tutti hanno lingue
> distint. Valachi, I quali sono I piu antichi habitatori e descendono da
> italiani e longobardi. Onde hanno lingua simile all'italiana moderna, tal
> che fra pochi mesi si potrebbe bene imparar la loro lingua; come essi anco
> facilmente imparano l'italiano. Anzi essi si chiamano romaneschi..."
> POPE CLEMENT 6 (1342-1352).
> "Olachi Romani,commorantes in partibus Ungariae,Transilvanis,Ultralpinis
> et Sirmus"
> (In Hungary,Transilvania,Muntenia and Sirmia live the Roman-Vlachs)
> or
> "Tam nobilibus quam popularibus Olachis Romanis"
>  POPE PIUS II (1458-1464) (Commentarium rerum memorabilium).
> "VALACHI lingua utuntur Italica, verum imperfecta, et admodum corrupta;
> sunt qui legiones Romanas eo missas olim censeant adversus Dacos, qui eas
> terras incolebant; legionibus Flaccum quendam praefuisse, a que Flacci
> primum,deinde Valachi, mutatis litteris, sint appellati;quorum posteri (ut
> ante relatum est) "
> Summary: (The Vlachs are a people of Roman origin, born from an antic
> Roman Imperial colony, speaking a language close to Latin or Italian).
> Nicolaus Machinensis, episcop of Modrussa ( DALMATIA).
> "Inferiora vero quaecumque Ister Boristenesque intercipt usque ad Ponti
> ripas Valacchi obtinent,
> romani quondam vel exules vel milites, a duce Flacco ita cognominati, nunc
> immutatione litterae Vlacchi appellati: quo vocabulo non modo ea gens sed
> omnes quoque finitimae nationes hodie Italos nominant. Valacchi originis
> suae illud praecipuum prae se ferunt argumentum quod, quamvis Mysorum
> lingua quae illyrica est omnes utantur, vernaculo tamen sermone, hoc est
> latino haud prorsus obsoleto ab incunabulis loquuntur; et cum ignotis
> congressi, dum linguae explorant comertium, an ROMANAE loqui norint
> interrogant".
> Janus Pannonius.Hungarian Humanist, Poet (1434-1472).
> "Sarmatici montes et vos septemplici Istri 
> Caerulea Euxinio cornua mixta Mari,
> Ac tu Romanis olim possessa colonis
> Sed iam corrupto, barbara rerra, sono 
> Quid dominum lentis longe retinetis in armis?"
> Alessandro Cortesi. Poet, (1469-1491)
> "An procul expusos Nomadas, serasque luentes
> Pastores rupto Siculos pro foedere poenas?
> Trinacriae Siculos quondam, Schythiaeque colonos,
> Fortia magnanimos praebentes colla Valachos,
> Qui referunt prisca Roamanam ab origine gentem?"
> POPE Innocent III (in  a latter from 1203).
> "Therefore, we, who have been appointed by the will of GOD and
> Father,unworthy as we are, as vicars and successors of the Apostolic See,
> to prove by the force of facts our fatherly love for the Church of the
> Bulgarians and ROMANIANS (VLACHS),who are said to be THE DESCENDENTS OF
> THE ROMANS,by their flesh and blood"
> POPE Innocent III (in a letter addressed to IONITA, lord of the Bulgarians
> and Romanians,from 1203)
> "Thus, taking this into account, we have decided since long, through our
> envoy or our letters, that we should pay a visit to your lordship, so
> that,realizing your faith to the Roman Church,Your Mother, we might then
> ROMANS...As, he (God the Father) will help you to be a ROMAN in this
> wordily life and for your Eternal Salvation by your own striving, the same
> as you are BY YOUR DESCENT; and he shall help the people of your country,
> which say that they are the ROMANS, blood and flesh".
> Enea Silvio Piccolomini, "Cosmography" 1501.
> "Transilvania...,it is inhabited by three peoples: the Saxons, the
> Szecklers and the ROMANIANS.
> The Saxons had come from Saxony,and are strong men,used to the
> struggle...The Szecklers are considered the most ancient Hungarians...,The
> ROMANIANS are of Italian stock..., A colony of the ROMANS was settled
> there (Dacia) to keep a tight rein over Dacians under the leadership of a
> certain Flaccus, after whose name the coutry was called Flacohia and its
> inhabitants were called VLACHS instead of Flacci. This people speaks now a
> ROMAN idiom, although partly changed,and hardly understood by an Italian".
> Francesco della Valle,1532,(Secretary of Aloisio Gritti,a natural son to
> Doge Andrea Gritti).
> "The Romanians(Vlachs) are of Italian stock, and according to them, they
> are the descendants of the ANCIENT ROMANS".
> The anonymous notary of King Bela, "Gesta Hungarorum".
> "For, after king Attila's death,the ROMANS called the soil of Panonia a
> graze field as,their herds used to graze in the country of Panonia.And
> they were right in calling the Panonian soil the grazing fields of the
> ROMANS, as even nowadays, the ROMANIANS(Vlachs) feed their sheep on the
> Hungarian estates".
> IOAN KINNAMOS (Imperial secretary under two Byzantine emperors, Manuel I &
> Andronic)
> "It is said about the Vlachs that they are the old descendents of those
> from Italy".
> Poggio Bracciolini (1380-1459),"Disceptationes convivales", Florentine
> Humanist.
> "Apud superiores Sarmatas colonia est ab Traiano ut aiunt derelicta, quae
> nunc etiam inter tantam barbariem multa retinet latina vocabula, ab
> Italis, qui eo profecti sunt, notata.
> Oculum dicunt, digitum, manum,panem,multaque alia quibus apparet ab
> Latinis, qui coloni ibidem relicti fuerunt, manasse eamque coloniam fuisse
> latino sermoneusam".
> Flavio Biondo. Humanist, (1392-1463).
> "Et qui e rgione Danubio item adiacent Ripenses Daci, sive
> Valachi,originem, quam ad decus prae se ferunt praedicantque ROMANAM,
> loquela ostendunt, quos catholice christianos ROMAN quotannis et
> Apostolorum limina invisentes, aliquando gavisi sumus ita loquentes
> audiri, ut, quae vulgari communique gentis suae more dicunt, rusticam male
> grammaticam redoleant latinitatem"
> NICOLAUS MACHINENSIS. Episcop of Dalmatia under Pope Pius II.
> "Inferiora vero quaecumque Ister Boristenesque intercipt usque ad Ponti
> ripas Valacchi obtinent, romani quondam vel exules vel milites, a duce
> Flacco ita cognominati, nunc immutatione litterae Vlacchi appellati: quo
> vocabulo non modo ea gens sed omnes quopue fimitimae nationes hodie Italos
> nominant".
> Janus Pannonicus (1434-1472), The most important Hungarian Humanist.
> "Sarmatici montes et vos septemplicis Istri
> Caerulea Euxinio cornua mixta Mari,
> Ac tu Romanis olim possessa colonis
> Sed iam corrupto, barbara terra, sono
> Quid domimum lentis longe retinetis in armis?".
> Filippo Buonaccorsi Callimaco (1438-1496), Italian Political Annalist.
> "Sed utcunque immensus uel infinitus potios, eadem ubuque lingua et
> praeter Romanorum coloniam Valachiam gentes omnes eadem primordia
> profitentes".
> "Fama nouae coloniae aliquamdiu motus Scuthios compescuit.Deinde non solum
> propulsantibus, sed egregie etiam inferentibus bellum Romanis datae
> acceptaeque sunt utrinque paene innumerabiles clades, cum pleraque a
> caesaribus supplementa et auxilia suis mitterentur".
> Jan Dlugosz (1415-1480),Polish Chronicler.
> "(1359) Stephano Moldaviae Voievodae, apud Valachos mortuo, quorum maiores
> et aboriginarii de Italiae Regno pulsi ( genus et natio Volscorum esse
> fuisseque creduntur) veteribus Dominis et colonis Ruthenis, primum sudole,
> deinde abundante in dies multitudine... ".
> Raffaelo Maffei Volterano (1506),Italian Humanist.
> "Eo quod Romanos, ut dixi, accepere colonos, pleraque uocabula loquuntur
> lingua semijtalica,argumento est nomen Valachiam enim appellant, quod
> Valach Italicum lingua ipsorum dicatur".
> Marcantonio Coccio (1436- 1506), Italian Historian.
> "Valachi italicum genus hominum: horum terram Daci olim tenuerunt: nunc
> Teutones, Siculi et Valachi tenent... Valachorum nobilissimi qui
> agriculturam et qui pecuariam exercent".
> Felix Petancici (1445-1517), Humanist from Ragusa (Dalmatia).
> "Haec est provincia Dacia dicta apud veteres, Romanorum colonia(unde eius
> aborigines hac etiam nostra tempestate) passim latino utuntur colloquio".
> Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.
> Joachim Vadian (1484-1551), Swiss Humanist.
> "Supra Cataractas Danubius, infra vero Ister dicitur, sunt autem hae
> maximae, intre montes Dacorum Straboni, eos hodie Iazigibus et
> Transiluanis subiunctos, Walachos nominant, vocabulo Boemis Sarmatisque
> uernaculo, quod inde natum uidetur, namque ‘ty Vlasschi' Italos nominant
> quos ibi consedisse ex Pannonicis Sarmaticisque Romanorum bellis
> constant,cum ne hodie quidem eorum lingua ab Italica multum sit absona".
> Stephan Taurinus (1485-1519), Moravian Humanist.
> "Valachia vulgo Latinis Vlaccia dicitur, provintia Pannoniae Cisdanubianae
> contermina in pontum usque descendens cum Damubo, veteres inferiorem
> Moesiam dixere, vide superius loco suo. Inde Vlacci Vlacciae populi, quos
> vulgus Valachos appellant".
> Johann Boemus (1520), German Humanist.
> "Sed ea Thraciae pars quae Gethica olim dicebat, vbi Darius Hidaspis
> filius pene perijt, hodie Valachia appellatur, a Flaccis quiritum gente,
> Rhomani enim Gethis superatis et deletis Flacci cuiusdam ductu eo Coloniam
> miserunt, vnde prumum Flaccia, dein corrupta voce Vallacia dicta".
> Sebastian Franck (1499-1543), German Humanist.
> "In didem landt (Walachia) haben ettwan das volck Gethe gewonet, die gross
> krieg gebraucht haben, zu letst mit den Rhomischen waffen ernider
> gerruckt, abgetilckt vnd mit yhrem volck besetzt, vnder dem Rhomischen
> hauptmann Flacco, von dem sy Flaccia nachmals vnlang Walachia gnant worden
> ist, das diss volcks spraach noch heut her meysttheyl Rhomisch ist, doch
> also corrumpiert, daz sy einem Rhomer kaum verstendtlich seind"
> Georg Rithaymer (1563), Austrian Humanist.
> "Valachi Italicum genus hominum in colonias huc missum, plane in mores
> Getarum abierunt, ita nihil antiquae originis suae retinent, praeter
> linguam quam barbare et corrupte conant".
> Nicolaus Olahus (1493-1568), Romanian (Vlach) Humanist.
> "Lingua, ritu, religione eadem Moldavi utuntur, qua Transalpini; vestitu
> aliqua saltem ex parte differunt...Sermo eorum et aliorum Valachorum fuit
> olim Romanus, vt qui sint coloniae Romanorum: nostra tempestate, maxime ab
> eo differt; praeterquam quod multa eorum vocabula, latinis sint
> intelligibilia...Valachi, Romanorum coloniae esse traduntur. Eius rei
> argumentum est, quod multa habeant communia cum idiomate Romano, cuius
> populi pleraque numismata, eo laci reperiuntur; haud dubie, magna
> vetustatis imperiique Romani istic indicia".
> Theodor Bibliander (1548),Swiss Humanist.
> "Post irruptiones Gothorum et Germanicarum gentium et Sclavinorum, atque
> lacerationem et ruinam, imperij, sermo provincialis degeneravit longius a
> sua origine, ut in provincia Daciae Vualachorum lingua, Vlasky enim Italum
> aut Walhen sonat Slavis. Idem accidit in Hispanijs, in Gallia, denique in
> ipsa Italia, in Latio, in urbe domina gentium et sede Romanae eloquentiae"
> Iacob Heraclid, Despot-Voda, Prince of Moldovia.
> "Con voi valenti homeni et gente bellicosa discesi dali valorosi Romani,
> quali hano fatto trmer il mondo... Et a questo se faremo cognoscer a tutto
> il mondo li veri Romani et discesi da queli et il nome nostro sara
> immortale et conergeremo l'imagine di nostri padri".
> Stanislaw Orzechowski (1513-1566), Polish Humanist.
> "Hi (sc. Daci) erant ex Italis Romanisque proceati, qui Duce Lucio Valerio
> Flacco cum Daciam occupavissent, in hisque Regionibus uxores duxissent, ac
> consenuissent, hoc Dacos reliquerunt, qui eorum lingua Romini a Romanis,
> nostra Walachi, ab Italis appellantur. Wloszy enim Polonis idem est, quod
> Itali Latinis".
> Martin Opitz (1597-1639), The father of modern German literature.
> "Doch ewre (der Romer) Sprache bleibt noch hier auff diesen Tag,
> Darob man dich gewiss gar billich wundern mag.
> Italien hat selbst nicht viel von seinem alten
> Ingleichen Spanien vnd Gallia behalten:
> Wie wenig diese nun den Romern ehnlich sein,
> So nahe sind verwandt Walachisch und Latein"
> "Es steckt manchs edles Blut in kleinen Bawrenhutten,
> Das noch den alten brauch vnd der Vorfahren sitten
> Nicht gantzlich avgelegt. Wie dann jhr Tantz anzeigt,
> In dem so wunderbar gebuckt wird und geneigt,
> Gesprungen in die hoh, auff  art der Capreolen,
> Die meine Deutschen sonst auss Franckrich mussen holen,
> Bald wird ein Kreiss gemacht, bald wiederumb zutrant,
> Bald gehn die Menscher recht, bald auff der lincken hand,
> Die Menscher, die noch jtzt fast Romisch muster tragen,
> Zwar schlecht, doch witzig sein, viel dencken, wenig sagen"
> ETC, ETC...
> --------------------------- end of quoting --------------------------
> Pannon J.
> ----------
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