Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 574
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-02-10
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: The burden's on Durant (mind)  98 sor     (cikkei)
2 To Joe about Trianon (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Hi (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Hungarian Theatre Help? (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: The burden's on Durant (mind)  139 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: More on political correctness (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Flogging a dead horse vs. necrophilia?!?! (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Hungarian Theatre Help? (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: More on political correctness (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Prostitution (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: WWI and Trianon (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Hi (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Flogging a dead horse vs. necrophilia?!?! (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
15 Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
16 Benes Decrees - the Aftermath (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Hi (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
24 The burden remains on Durant (mind)  103 sor     (cikkei)
25 The burden is on Durant (mind)  189 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: The burden's on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [Canada]
>
> Sorry to disagree James, but the burden of proof is on you.  Why don't you
> tell us how an unfettered market, whose first and only interest is to
> endlessly create capital, is going to lead to a better society?  And better
> in what way, and better for whom?
The burden is still on E1va. Whatever its failures, capitalism has at least
outlasted socialism. Clearly, there is something to this notion of
accumulating capital inasmuch as capital is essential for the production of
most goods. So it boils down to the old "frigidaire socialism" debate: what
good are the goods? According to the true-blue (I should say true red)
socialist, these materialistic trappings of the consumer society are not good
for anything, in fact they are evil inasmuch as possessing them lessens
revolutionary fervor. Yet people seem to like/want/desire them. So the
socialist logic inevitably leads to the conclusion that people actually don't
know what's good for them, and it's up to the revolutionary avant-garde
(forradalmi e1lcsapat) to make them see the light.

> Oh really?  How successful were/are Guatemela, El Salvador, Honduras, Haiti,
> Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Brazil, Bangladesh, Philippines, Sri
> Lanka, Thailand, Indonesia, Botswana, Egypt, Gambia, Mali, Zambia, Tanzania,
> black South Africa, etc., etc., etc.?
At least Brazil, the Phillipines, Thailand, Indonesia, Egypt, and black South
Africa seem to be doing OK, enjoying growth rates unmatched by any socialist
experiment. Central America is not a happy place, mostly because the US has a
tendency to prop up the stupid oppressive regimes there, which conserves an
economic system (still based on latifundia) rather ill-suited for the 20th
century. Botswana, Gambia, Mali, Zambia, and Tanzania are mired in tribalism.
Notice that in both cases the problem is a precapitalist (in Central America,
feudal, and in Africa, even more primitive) system, over which capitalism is
a distinct improvement.  Sri Lanka is cursed by an ethnic conflict, so your
list narrows down to Bangladesh. Frankly, I have no idea what's going on in
Bangladesh, perhaps even socialism is better than what they have now. Give
'em a true revolutionary like Pol Pot, and the overpopulation problem will
be taken care of, wouldn't you agree?

> The wellspring of your economic fundamentalist ideology is, no doubt,
> Friedrich August von Hayek's, 1944 text, The Road to Serfdom.   Hayek
> believed that increased government control would lead both to economic
> decline, as state planning replaced the free market, and to the erosion of
> personal liberty.
Hayek indeed "believed" this, though I think this choice of the verb
does disservice to "belief" arrived at by logical argumentation. I'd
say Hayek "reasoned", "argued", even "concluded" this, and boy did the
ensuing period prove him right.

> His solution was to restore economic growth by cutting government spending
> and to get the state out of everything except perhaps paving roads or
> guarding borders.
It's not a bad idea, considering the ineptness governments handle almost
anything. If someone came up with a better method of redistributing wealth
(which I take to be the primary function of the modern state, given that it
is both incapable of and unwilling to uphold contracts between private
parties) I'd be ready to dispense with governments altogether.

> Hayek's theories are great if you believe that we were born to serve the
> needs of the market.  However, if you believe, as I do, that human,
> ecological, environmental, social, and perhaps even spiritual needs, are not
> met exclusively by the free market, then Hayek has nothing to offer.
Semmelweis', Lister's, and Pasteur's theories are great if you believe that
we were born to serve the needs of hygiene.  However, if you believe, as I
do, that human, ecological, environmental, social, and perhaps even spiritual
needs, are not met exclusively by hygiene, then Semmelweis, Lister, and
Pasteur have nothing to offer.

> So James,  are you up to explaining how a free market will take us to
> nirvana?  I think the onus of proof is on you and not on Durant.
Maybe it will take us to Nirvana, maybe it won't. But the burden is always on
those arguing for a change. What reason we have to believe that socialism or
feudalism or whatever would be better? The social organization we currently
have came about as a result of a long (and obviously unfinished) evolutionary
process. Capitalism displaced other systems because it was better. Some other
system might displace it later, but there is no reason to believe that it
will be socialism, which is based on fundamentally flawed idealizations of
the actual conditions obtaining in the world.

> After all, the free market controls most of the world now.
You are really prepared to see this as an accident? A te1nyekkel nem
lehet vitatkozni, elvta1rsak.

> Since this is the Hungarian Discussion Group, maybe you can tell us how the
> free market has helped Hungarians.  A simple request, really.
Joe, you gotta be kidding. There is only one political force in Hungary that
really wants to turn back the clock, Munka1spa1rt. They regularly get around
2% in the elections. I conclude that 98% of the population views socialism as
a lost cause.

Do Hungarians like capitalism? No. Would they like peace and prosperity
bankrolled by foreign loans, like in the golden years of Ka1da1r? You betcha.
Do they actually want to work harder than they used to? No. Do they see the
loss of job security as something positive? Perhaps the employers who thereby
gain more hardworking employees do, but obviously they are a minority.

Altogether, we have yet to see a drug addict who likes to come down from a
high. I highly recommend the Fugs classic "I'm a-coming down" to get yourself
in the mood of Hungary today.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - To Joe about Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Joe,

you wrote:

>Many Hungarians display pre-Trianon maps of Hungary.  No doubt their hope
>and dream is to see Hungary as large as it once was.  Although their concern
>for Hungarians in Romania, Slovakia, and Serbia is real and justified, I
>often get the feeling that they would be quite happy if those areas were
>reunited to Hungary.

I am hungarian, I mean hungarian citizen, and I have never displayed pre-
Trianon map. Not because I think Trianon was a fair decision, but because
I think Great-Hungary would not be a solution either. Most of my friend
has similar ideas, however there was some who was irredenta (if you know
what this word means). The irredentism is not a real danger in Hungary
(yet !, if Torgyan continues his bullshits it may become a danger), so
please do not make worse reputation to the hungarians than they desired
for. You have already demonstreted that you have very few knowledge about
Hungary, so please restrict yourself to your communist bullshit. You do
not know much more about it, but at least it is not so obvious, so you can
get away with it.

Janos
+ - Re: Hi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Welcome. Try shorter lines and think on the lines of
more democracy.
Eva Durant


>
> I'm new to this game - this is my first message.  Be gentle with me!
>
> I've been reading the ongoing debates over the last two days with =
> interest (sometimes!)...good to see a diversity of opinion!  Luckily, =
> this forum creates physical separation!
> -cut-
+ - Re: Hungarian Theatre Help? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If you have www, perhaps you are able to locate ELTE
(people, the art/literature ones know a lot about
Hungarian theatre.
Eva Durant
+ - Re: The burden's on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> The burden is still on E1va. Whatever its failures, capitalism has at least
> outlasted socialism.

.. but we did not have democratic socialism yet.
With your argument you can say feudalism outlasted capitalism
- we had it for thousands of years and bits of it still survive.


> accumulating capital inasmuch as capital is essential for the production of
> most goods.

Well, no. You need people and tools. It happend that way, for
millions of years previously...



> good are the goods? According to the true-blue (I should say true red)
> socialist, these materialistic trappings of the consumer society are not good
> for anything, in fact they are evil inasmuch as possessing them lessens
> revolutionary fervor.


I don't know what shade of red I am, but I don't say this.
There is a lot of artificially created "need", thats true.
But I think everyone should have the comfort of not
having to do repetitive/boring tasks such as housework or
assembly line and the means to education/culture/art such
as telecommunicational devices.  The problem is, that
the revolutionary fervour  intensifies as most people
cannot attain these minimal ambicions


> socialist logic inevitably leads to the conclusion that people actually don't
> know what's good for them, and it's up to the revolutionary avant-garde
> (forradalmi e1lcsapat) to make them see the light.
>

but a human evolutionary advantage is the learning (eventually)
from past mistakes.  Now we now, there is no short cut to
democracy, if people don't take part knowingly/consciously,
there is no democracy or socialism.  There are terrorists etc.
who lost their trust in the people they "work" for. Read
the classic marxists - including Trotsky - polemics proving
such tactics/philosophies wrong.


> At least Brazil, the Phillipines, Thailand, Indonesia, Egypt, and black South
> Africa seem to be doing OK, enjoying growth rates unmatched by any socialist
> experiment.

Unfortunately, growth rates seem to have no correlation to living
standard in recent decades.  See the tremendous growth record of China,
and no corresponding riches, except for a narrow urban layer.

> Central America is not a happy place, mostly because the US has a
> tendency to prop up the stupid oppressive regimes there, which conserves an
> economic system (still based on latifundia) rather ill-suited for the 20th
> century.

And haven't we heard a lot about the previous marvellous growth rates
of Central American countries!
Be realistic. These days a "healthy" growthrate in a capitalist
country means undemocratic practices, e.g. Indonasia, Malaysia,
South-Korea, Singapur. Even Japan is not known to be the country
of freedom and democracy, especially in the industrial arena.
But even these regimes have no guarantee for such prosperous]
future, the signs of furure crises are there.


> Maybe it will take us to Nirvana, maybe it won't. But the burden is always on
> those arguing for a change. What reason we have to believe that socialism or
> feudalism or whatever would be better?

What reason is to believe, that capitalism is not getting much
much worse? The trend is for more and more concentration of
wealth, more and more powerful multinationals, less and less
social benefits for the majority, not to mention the sharpening
competition, reliance on arm-industry, drug-trafficing,
corruption and speculation.  These could be all be dispenced
with in a democratic and socialist society, for which
reason it seems more practical future to me.

The social organization we currently
> have came about as a result of a long (and obviously unfinished) evolutionary
> process. Capitalism displaced other systems because it was better. Some other
> system might displace it later, but there is no reason to believe that it
> will be socialism, which is based on fundamentally flawed idealizations of
> the actual conditions obtaining in the world.
>

what is  fundamentally flawed?


> > After all, the free market controls most of the world now.
> You are really prepared to see this as an accident? A te1nyekkel nem
> lehet vitatkozni, elvta1rsak.
>

Dinosaurs were in abundance... When they couldn't adapt
anymore, they disappeared.



> > Since this is the Hungarian Discussion Group, maybe you can tell us how the
> > free market has helped Hungarians.  A simple request, really.
> Joe, you gotta be kidding. There is only one political force in Hungary that
> really wants to turn back the clock, Munka1spa1rt. They regularly get around
> 2% in the elections. I conclude that 98% of the population views socialism as
> a lost cause.
>

I wouldn't be so sure. Especially, if they will get a hint,
that there is an option to do it democratically - which
was a popular motivatioon for a lot of people in 56 and
since 56, even if they were persecuted.


> Do Hungarians like capitalism? No. Would they like peace and prosperity
> bankrolled by foreign loans, like in the golden years of Ka1da1r? You betcha.
> Do they actually want to work harder than they used to? No.

It is not humanly possible. You can only do so many "second" jobs.


> loss of job security as something positive? Perhaps the employers who thereby
> gain more hardworking employees do, but obviously they are a minority.
>
> Altogether, we have yet to see a drug addict who likes to come down from a
> high. I highly recommend the Fugs classic "I'm a-coming down" to get yourself
> in the mood of Hungary today.
>

So job security is similar to drug addiction.  Just a nasty habit,
shouldn't aspire for such filthy un-capitalist dreams...
Workers should be trained for the needs of employers, and
if they not needed, should be somehow get rid off,
as they overpopulating the Earth...   Now this is the very near
future scenario I should feel the hots for???
Eva Durant
+ - Re: More on political correctness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hali,

Alright!!!!! Battle of the Szalai's!!!!!

I'll lay off you, Joe!

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
+ - Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Janos Zsargo wrote:

> Dear Joe,
>
> you wrote:
>
> >Many Hungarians display pre-Trianon maps of Hungary.  No doubt their hope
> >and dream is to see Hungary as large as it once was.  Although their concern
> >for Hungarians in Romania, Slovakia, and Serbia is real and justified, I
> >often get the feeling that they would be quite happy if those areas were
> >reunited to Hungary.
>
> I am hungarian, I mean hungarian citizen, and I have never displayed pre-
> Trianon map. Not because I think Trianon was a fair decision, but because
> I think Great-Hungary would not be a solution either. Most of my friend
> has similar ideas, however there was some who was irredenta (if you know
> what this word means). The irredentism is not a real danger in Hungary
> (yet !, if Torgyan continues his bullshits it may become a danger), so
> please do not make worse reputation to the hungarians than they desired
> for. You have already demonstreted that you have very few knowledge about
> Hungary, so please restrict yourself to your communist bullshit. You do
> not know much more about it, but at least it is not so obvious, so you can
> get away with it.
>
> Janos
>
HOOOEEEE (Redneck for Wow!) I realize I will have to agree with Janos on
this one. Joe, believe me, yes you can buy well done maps of Nagy
Magyorszag for a dime a dozen (50 forints perhaps?) but this does not
necessarily mean everyone one secretly hopes for a return of the
territories.

I find those maps to be mush less insidious than the ones I brought back
from Serbia, the ones that said "Thank God I am Serb" with the caption
for the map of Bosnia-Hercegovina that said "Western Serbia" Showed that
one to my class. They understood the propaganda power.

I won't deny that the folks torgyan appeals to would like to see greater
Hungary again, but the majority would not want to see anything of the
sort. Two generations from now, it might be a truly historical thing.
societies and the members that make them up seem to forget things they
did not see firsthand, or have immediate family members tell them about
from first-hand experience.

Let us hope they all flearn from the mistakes of drawing lines on a map
without considering what the humans who live in those lines think.

Just my 10 forints worth,

Darren
+ - Re: Flogging a dead horse vs. necrophilia?!?! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 (J.A. Szalai) writes:

> I watched cartoons as
>a child, but never once did I have the urge to blow someone skyhigh with
>my ACME Dynamite.

Wouldn't do you much good if you wanted to. The company closed a few years
back after they lost a bunch of product liability suits filed by a coyote.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Hungarian Theatre Help? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 15:05 08/02/96 -0800, Dennis Perkins and Richard Alexander wrote:
>On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Dennis Perkins wrote:
>
>> I'm new to the net, so please forgive both my naivete & intrusiveness.  I
>> spent 2 three month sessions with the Debreceni Csokonai Szinhaz and so...
>> .
>>
>> My question is: is this solely a political/semantic newsgroup and/or are
>> there alternatives which better conform to my interest in Hungarian
>> Theatre?  This is the only Hungarian related group that I've managed to
>> find.
>>
>> Dennis E. Perkins
>> -
>>   DENNIS E. PERKINS  
>>
>
>How the Csokonai doing these days?  Reports from Debrecen complain
>bitterly about the cost of living.  Who can afford theatre tickets?
>
>Did you happen to hear anything about the theatre in Kosice (Kasa), which
>apparently has been merged with a Slovak theatre group?
>
>Richard Alexander

>

Dear Dennis -

I am fairly new to the Hungary List, and I had been wondering the same
thing, as I am quite interested in Hungarian theatre and film, and although
there have been discussions about books that are of interest (mainly
history/political science) there hasn't been any discussion of theatre and
film since I subscribed. So, don't get discouraged and go elsewhere - take
the initiative - as you can see from Mr. Alexander's query, you may have
information that you can impart to the Listmembers, and you might be able to
get something going!

I think you would probably find SCM's focus (if you could call it a focus)
is pretty much the same as the Hungary List, except that it seems to be a
little less academically oriented and there are more junk messages to deal
with.

I can't say anything about the Hungarian language newsgroups, because I
don't know enough of the language to really get much out of them, but if you
are bilingual, you may find more available there. You should really take a
look at the Hungarian FAQ, which is maintained by Zoli Fekete. I believe the
URL is:

http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq

I found it very helpful, and that is where I got the information on how to
subscribe to this List as well as most of the other major Newsgroups and
services which relate to Hungary.

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: More on political correctness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:25 09/02/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hali,
>
>Alright!!!!! Battle of the Szalai's!!!!!
>
>I'll lay off you, Joe!
>
>Udv.,
>Czifra Jancsi
>

(Psst... I heard a rumour that J.A. Szalai was really J.G. Szalai's evil
twin! ...Or was it vice versa?)

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Prostitution (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:58 PM 2/8/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>The Feb. 5, 1996 Hungary Report 1.36 (http://www.isys.hu/hrep/) had this item:
>
>>PLANS TO LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION IN HUNGARY ARE UNDERWAY by the
>>Interior Ministry. The plans stipulate that prostitutes must be
>>registered as private entrepreneurs. If approved, local governments
>>will issue the licenses and prostitutes will  have to carry a valid
>>certificate of health.
>
>Would this law legalize both female and male prostitutes?

        Are you kidding? You should have a sampling of what Hungarians think
of homosexuality at the Forum. You will be surprised. Or perhaps not!
        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: WWI and Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:58 PM 2/8/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I
>guess the inference is that if Hungary would be large, pre-Trianonian, then
>it would be the best nation in the world.  The sentimentalism of the Trianon
>legent lends itself to a rather pessimistic nation.
>
>Many Hungarians display pre-Trianon maps of Hungary.  No doubt their hope
>and dream is to see Hungary as large as it once was.

        Joe Szalai unfortunately is giving an entirely inaccurate picture of
Hungarian sentiments about the current borders of Hungary. No one, but no
one wants, to recreate Greater Hungary today. To claim such a thing only
shows ignorance of Hungarian reality.

        At the same time, the borders drawn in 1919--which are the current
borders of Hungary with one minor adjustment in Czechoslovakia's favor in
1946, left practically half of Hungary's Hungarian population in the
successor states. Some of this couldn't be helped. For example, the great
majority of the Hungarian of Transylvania didn't live in contiguous areas to
the borders. But millions did both along the northern and the eastern
borders. In addition, all mixed areas went to the successor states, none to
Hungary and thus Hungary became almost entirely homogenious as far as the
population is concerned while the successor states became veritably little
Austria-Hungarys, except in a more nationalistic and less tolerant era.

        Hungary's hope--which is getting dimmer and dimmer--that the very
sizeable Hungarian minorities in Slovakia and Romania will have a chance to
education in their mother tongues and will not be discriminated against
because of their national origins. Hungary's other hope that the borders
will not be such dividing lines in the future as in the past--perhaps within
a European Union the current borders wouldn't have the same significance
than in the last 80 or so years.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:58 PM 2/8/96 -0000, Bruce wrote:

>This is probably extremely naive, but I've always thought that Hungary
(probably more than the other Central European nations) is in a unique
position to develop a new way forward - taking the best from socialism and
free markets, if that's possible, and developing a 90's socio-economic
regime which is an improvement on both the drawbacks of socialism and of
purist capitalism.  A nice thought.

        Hungarians thought that they would have a jumpstart in the
changeover to market economy because of their earlier attempts at a somewhat
mixed economy. They were wrong. As for the half and half: the best from this
and the best from that--is truly naive. In fact, Poland which introduced the
so-called shock therapy is much better off today than Hungary which tried to
do it gradually.
        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Flogging a dead horse vs. necrophilia?!?! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Haliho,


"Yosemite" Sam Stowe writes:
___________________________________________________________
In article >,
 (J.A. Szalai) writes:

> I watched cartoons as
>a child, but never once did I have the urge to blow someone skyhigh with
>my ACME Dynamite.

Wouldn't do you much good if you wanted to. The company closed a few years
back after they lost a bunch of product liability suits filed by a coyote.
Sam Stowe
____________________________________________________________

Funny how that dynamite blew up, always, at the wrong moment. Didn't Wile E.
Coyote settle out of court with ACME?? ACME has grown prosperous, since Tiny
Toons hit the airwaves.........Oh spit!!! I can't continue on........This is,
too, silly!!!!!!

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Haliho,

__________________________________________
Darren Purcell wrote:

I won't deny that the folks torgyan appeals to would like to see greater
Hungary again, but the majority would not want to see anything of the
sort. Two generations from now, it might be a truly historical thing.
societies and the members that make them up seem to forget things they
did not see firsthand, or have immediate family members tell them about
from first-hand experience.

Let us hope they all flearn from the mistakes of drawing lines on a map
without considering what the humans who live in those lines think.

Just my 10 forints worth,

Darren
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I've said this once before, but again: The Magyarorszag that was in Matthais
Corvinus's day or pre WW1 is still alive in many a Hungarian heart. Matthais
Corvinus's Hungary was even greater in size and was more prosperous than the
pre WW1 period (I'll catch hell for that one), but either way it was a time of
greatness, despite any internal problems. Those who follow the Torgyan school
of thought are acting on their hearts and not thinking with their minds.

I guess they'd want to take it by force. I, really, see that happening.
Katonasag, in Hungary, is like a vacation for these kids. A year an a half of
drinking and merryment, with weekends off. Makes me want to join up. I have
cousins who are in the "Sereg" who are having a blast. There's 10 male
relatives in my family, me being the oldest. Every year one of them goes in the
"Sereg". I manage to be in Hungary when the "Leszereles"  (hope I spelled it
right) happens (It's when soldiers become civilians again.). 2 years ago, I met
my cousin in Kecskemet and the entire camp hopped on a train, taking up 4
passenger cars, and went on their final trip home. There was an amazing amount
of drinking done from Kecskemet to Debrecen. It was emotional, too. All those
guys realizing that they won't be able to drink as much as they did, in a year
and a half, ever again. Bring a tear to your eye doesn't it??? =-(

This is Hungarian defense at it's finest. Whoever plans military strategy in
Hungary should really get their heads checked. Since when was Oroshaza and
Debrecen considered borders?? Evidently, the Hatarorseg (border patrol) is
being done at these two installations, kepzeld el. 2 of my cousins did border
patrol duty in these two cities. Go figure.

Exactly, as you said, Darren, let's hope that all will learn from their
mistakes. Trianon was a mistake..... a BIG mistake, with Hungary taking the
punch and it's still has the black eye to prove it.

Darren, since you've gotten married, it seems you've mellowed, or is it just
me?? A few months ago, you were ready to carve up Romania with an Atlas GIS
program and move everyone around. Then the "water under the bridge" comments
every other post. Impressive, Darren.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Benes Decrees - the Aftermath (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From the frontpage of the New York Times on February 9

MEMORIES OF WARTIME BRUTALITIES REVIVE CZECH-GERMAN ANIMOSITY

Some excerpts:

"In his booklined study here, Ivan Klima, one of the foremost Czech
authors, recalls the days a half-century ago when surviving Jewish
families like his finally fled the concentration camps to find their
land awash in killing and chaos. He was then 14 years old, and, even
in the final days of the Second World War, he said, so many Czechs were
shot by their Nazi German occupiers "for nothing" that humanity seemed
lost.

Karl-Heinz Wunderlich, a psychologist from the one-time ethnic German
minority in Czechoslovakia, remembers that period too. In his mind's eye
he still sees the Czech soldiers who, when he was 8, came to his family's
door in what was then the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, which Hitler had
annexed in 1938. Now living in Mainz, Germany, Dr. Wunderlich recalls how
Czechs toting submachine guns loaded people onto freight trains-the lucky
ones, that is, who endured what he called ethnic cleansing rather than
massacre as the Czechs purged their land of three million ethnic Germans.

Between them, the two men represent the emotional poles of a crisis
between Germany and the Czech Republic that has burst forth virulently
in recent weeks, representing one of the most corrosive disputes in
Central Europe since the fall of the Iron Curtain.

........

The Czechs, said Jiri Pahe, a political analyst here, "feel that they
didn't do anything wrong, that the expulsion was an appropriate response
to what German citizens had done to the Czech people." Neither do the Czechs
wish to be exposed to German claims for restitution or compensation for
confiscated property - the central point for the politically powerful
descendants of Sudeten Germans.

"For us on the Czech side, the matter is very clear," Jiri Grusa, Prague's
ambassador in Bonn, said in an interview. "We have said that the events
after the Second World War were not the best chapter in our history. But
we cannot offer a general acknowledgment as long as the Germans have not
relinquished their claims."

.......

At war's end, the Czech authorities perceived the Sudeten Germans
collectively as a fifth column for the Nazis, though by no means all of
them had been active collaborators with the occupiers.

Nonetheless, in a series of decrees, the first post-war President Edvard
Benes, sanctioned their expulsion, and granted amnesty to Czechs for
the killing of between 15,000 and 240,000 ethnic Germans, depending on
who is doing the counting. The 1945 Potsdam agreement among the war's
victors futher endorsed the notion of a transfer of the German population
from Czechoslovakia.

Now hear the version of Dr. Wunderlich, the psychologist in Mainz.

"Before the war, the Sudeten Germans were persecuted by the Czechs, not
physically, but psychologically. German jobs in civil service were
given to Czechs. No school meals were served in German schools, only
in Czech schools. The Czechs drove us into the arms of Hitler. We didn't
know what was going on in Germany. But when the Nazis marched in we soon
found out: 60,000 Sudeten Germans, Social Democrats, were imprisoned.

And at war's end, he said, "within a few weeks, 240,000 Sudeten Germans
- almost a tenth of the German population - were killed by the Czechs."
People were given as little as two hours to leave, marched to the
railroad stations at gun-point, stripped of their valuables and loaded
onto freight trains, he said

"Most Czechs today have no feeling of guilt, but they must recognize
that they have committed a crime -ethnic cleansing," Dr Wunderlich
said. "They want to draw a line even before they have come to terms
with it. No form of expulsion can ever be accepted. Imagine if we
Germans tried to pretend our past had not happened."

......

By the Czech account, moreover, the decision to expel the ethnic Germans
was derived from the 1945 Potsdam agreement, which approved orderly
transfer of ethnic German populations in Central and Eastern Europe.
But the Sudeten Germans say the expulsions began before that conference
and that most of the brutality had already occurred."

.........."


How the Czechs and Germans come to grips with their odious past behavior
is also significant for Hungarians. The Benes Decrees also applied to
the ethnic Hungarians of Czechoslovak citizenship. Hungarians were ethnic
cleansed solely based on their ethnicity. They still have not been
compensated for the wrongs inflicted upon them.

CSABA K ZOLTANI
+ - Re: Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> I guess they'd want to take it by force. I, really, see that happening.
> Katonasag, in Hungary, is like a vacation for these kids. A year an a half of
> drinking and merryment, with weekends off. Makes me want to join up. I have
> cousins who are in the "Sereg" who are having a blast. There's 10 male
> relatives in my family, me being the oldest. Every year one of them goes in
 the
> "Sereg". I manage to be in Hungary when the "Leszereles"  (hope I spelled it
> right) happens (It's when soldiers become civilians again.). 2 years ago, I
 met
> my cousin in Kecskemet and the entire camp hopped on a train, taking up 4
> passenger cars, and went on their final trip home. There was an amazing amoun
t
> of drinking done from Kecskemet to Debrecen. It was emotional, too. All those
> guys realizing that they won't be able to drink as much as they did, in a yea
r
> and a half, ever again. Bring a tear to your eye doesn't it??? =-(

Interesting, since most of the guys (university students) were
desperately trying to avoid the service somehow. Many of them saw it as a
waste of their time, a delay of the career, etc.


>
> This is Hungarian defense at it's finest. Whoever plans military strategy in
> Hungary should really get their heads checked. Since when was Oroshaza and
> Debrecen considered borders?? Evidently, the Hatarorseg (border patrol) is
> being done at these two installations, kepzeld el. 2 of my cousins did border
> patrol duty in these two cities. Go figure.

Interestingly enough, there was book out a couple of years ago that
considered hotspots of the world and considered the Transylvania
question. It conluded that Hungary would kick Romanian tail, despite
being outnumbered.

>
> Darren, since you've gotten married, it seems you've mellowed, or is it just
> me?? A few months ago, you were ready to carve up Romania with an Atlas GIS
> program and move everyone around. Then the "water under the bridge" comments
> every other post. Impressive, Darren.
>
> Udv.,
> Czifra Jancsi
> john_czifra @ shi.com

Jancsi Bacsi (I assume you are at least 5 years older than me, if not, i
won't use that term), that is not fair, to say I mellowed. I have a hard
time defending romania at times. Too many friends there who hate Funar,
Hate Illescu, and would just like to see the people get on with the real
lives they are trying to build.

Marriage does have a habit of changing things. People in the office have
said something is different. They are not sure if it postive or negative.
I don't feel it. I didn't know it would show up in email to!!

Mellowed, hhmmmmm. check the HL list, as I am incensed about what Meciar
and friends want to do with the electoral districts. IF more info comes
out on that, look out. I will take my copy of ATlas GIS and carve it all
up into microstates the size of Andorra. :-)


Udv.

Darren
+ - Re: Hi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
       Hungarians thought that they would have a jumpstart in the
changeover to market economy because of their earlier attempts at a somewhat
mixed economy. They were wrong. As for the half and half: the best from this
and the best from that--is truly naive. In fact, Poland which introduced the
so-called shock therapy is much better off today than Hungary which tried to
do it gradually.
        Eva Balogh
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Haliho,

They did, but.......being Magyars, we can't agree on anything. So we're way
behind the game. What else is new?? The Czechs and Slovenes have really got
their shit together with the Poles coming in behind.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Re: Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:24 PM 2/9/96 -0500, Janos Czifra wrote:

>I manage to be in Hungary when the "Leszereles"  (hope I spelled it
>right) happens (It's when soldiers become civilians again.). 2 years ago, I
>met
>my cousin in Kecskemet and the entire camp hopped on a train, taking up 4
>passenger cars, and went on their final trip home. There was an amazing amount
>of drinking done from Kecskemet to Debrecen. It was emotional, too. All those
>guys realizing that they won't be able to drink as much as they did, in a year
>and a half, ever again. Bring a tear to your eye doesn't it??? =-(

        Well, well. Unfortunately, this drinking business in the army got
some people in trouble a couple of days ago in Bosnia. See yesterday's BLA
news service.
        Two of the Hungarian "peacekeepers," newly arrived in Okucani, were
assigned to guard a former minefield, lately cleared. The two decided that
it was a very boring job and instead went to a pub and had a few! The two
have been dismissed and sent back to Hungary, where they will have to face a
military court.
        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Here's another 2 fillers worth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hali,

Darren Purcell wrote:
>Interesting, since most of the guys (university students) were
>desperately trying to avoid the service somehow. Many of them saw it as a
>waste of their time, a delay of the career, etc.

This is also the other option. I completely forgot. I'm running on 3hrs. of
sleep.
ZZZzzzzzZZZzzzz!!


>Interestingly enough, there was book out a couple of years ago that
>considered hotspots of the world and considered the Transylvania
>question. It conluded that Hungary would kick Romanian tail, despite
>being outnumbered.

Get out of here!!! Really?!?

>Jancsi Bacsi (I assume you are at least 5 years older than me, if not, i
>won't use that term), that is not fair, to say I mellowed. I have a hard
>time defending romania at times. Too many friends there who hate Funar,
>Hate Illescu, and would just like to see the people get on with the real
>lives they are trying to build.

Unless you're 20, then Jancsi Bacsi is cool with me. Even if not, Bacsi, doesn'
t
bother me.

>Mellowed, hhmmmmm. check the HL list, as I am incensed about what Meciar
>and friends want to do with the electoral districts. IF more info comes
>out on that, look out. I will take my copy of ATlas GIS and carve it all
>up into microstates the size of Andorra. :-)

Actually, mellow isn't the word. "Changed your view" would be better. You used
to say that Hungary should deal with these bastards and I'd blast you for
saying that. I've always said that Hungary should remain stubborn on the issue,
thus stalling EU entry. It's the only way to shed light on this ignored problem
in Eastern Europe, but now both parties are ready to talk again. The Slovak
government seems more enthused about then Hungary is. Who can blame the
Slovaks?? They've got what they've wanted (the language law) and can control
any future negotiations with Hungary. It's that simple. Romania, seeing how
successful the Slovaks were, is foaming at the mouth to do the same thing to
remedy their situation.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:02 AM 2/9/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>You have already demonstreted that you have very few knowledge about
>Hungary, so please restrict yourself to your communist bullshit. You do
>not know much more about it, but at least it is not so obvious, so you can
>get away with it.

So Janos, what else do I have 'very few knowledge about'?  Should I restrict
myself only to my 'communist bullshit', or is there something else I should
restrict as well?  And what else do I not know much about?  And finally,
what else can I get away with?

I salivate uncontrollably while I await your enlightened response.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>, DARREN E
PURCELL > writes:

>I won't deny that the folks torgyan appeals to would like to see greater
>Hungary again, but the majority would not want to see anything of the
>sort. Two generations from now, it might be a truly historical thing.
>societies and the members that make them up seem to forget things they
>did not see firsthand, or have immediate family members tell them about
>from first-hand experience.

The thing about it is, Darren, we don't see much debate on here about a
Greater Hungary. But anyone who monitors soc.culture.magyar for any length
of time is going to be treated to an on-going flamefest between Hungarians
and Romanians about Transylvania-Erdely. Hungary is caught in a precarious
spot on this particular issue. With so many ethnic Hungarians living as a
minority population in adjacent states, any Hungarian government is going
to have to come down on a continuum between ignoring those over-the-border
communities outright and tacitly sanctioning any oppression the majority
ethnic group in their respective nation may dish out or aggressively
guaranteeing, through military sanctions, the rights of Hungarians in
adjoining states. The fact that the three neighbors in question --
Romania, Slovakia and Yugoslavia -- are currently indulging in a round of
virulent nationalism that would make a drunken sailor blush doesn't help
matters. I think Hungary has done an outstanding job since 1989 of
negotiating its way through this particular minefield. Its political
leaders may not have been as outspoken in protesting the treatment of
Hungarian minorities in surrounding states as some irredentist
nationalists might like, but they have been fairly effective in
maintaining an ongoing dialogue with their neighbors. It will be a long
time, if ever, before this particular issue is defused at the
international level.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: To Joe about Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Now, I have a map of pre-Trianon Hungray and one of the 1940 period, when
parts of the territories awarded to neighboring countries were returned
to Hungary. Does this make me into an irredentist? I do not think so.

The maps are one of my best sources to historical names of localities,
which certainly do not show up in the maps of Romania, Serbia, Croatia
or the Slovak Republic.

Just think if at one time the Indian nations in North America produced a
map. Would the ownership or display of those maps mean that I want to
return thses lands to Native American ownership? Of course not.

If anyone reads Hungarian history or even historical novels, it is
interesting to know where the various localities were. I am convinced that
having reference information certainly does not make one into an
irredentist. There are irredentists who also own and/or display the
pre-Trianon maps, but please do not reverse the analogy. Even Trianon,
which in my opinion was not just, can be discussed from a historical
prespective, without a desire to change current borders. Does a nation
have to be completely extinct, like the Avars or Huns, to be not called an
irredentist when one discusses the extent of their erstwhile realms?

Do I have to call Kolozsvari Kaposzta Cluj Kaposzta or refer to the
orszaggyules as have been in Bratislava instead of Pozsony to be not called
an irredentist.

While, I was also extremly busy in the recent past, I am also staying out
of most of the debates because they are becoming too polemic and
unfortunately often do not display respect for the other group
contributors. Even the sarcasm does not have to be insulting, and just
because one does not like what the other says, it does not have to be a
indication of not likeing the person. Perhaps civility is a good substitute
to the slogans like PC., etc.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - The burden remains on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Date:    Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:36:31 +0100
> From:    Eva Durant >
> Subject: Re: The burden's on Durant
>
<snip>
> they aware, how important is that the democratic control
> is excercised.  They have an example NOT to follow.
> It would be an incredible improvement. The first consideration
> for production would be genuin need and environmental health.
> These can be measured now via democratic and scientific
> means. No overproduction. No waste.  But plenty enough
> for everybody, on a higher standard than now, especially
> if you count stuff like free eeducation, help, short/flexible
> working hours, free art to create and to consume, etc.
> All individuals will have a chance to develop to full
> potential.
>

Wow, that sounds wonderful!  Almost utopian.


> > I would like to hear your proposals for "the day after the
> > revolution".  Specifically what would have to be done that would
> > fulfill the above points?
> >
>
> The way I picture it, people will take over the local
> workplaces and public places, and start to run the themselves,
> dipping into information networks for any information and
> resources.  E.g. factories/schools/sporcentres/etc will
> be run by the people who work there, and people who are using
> the products/facilities.  The administration as a job will be
> cycled, with those who are particularily good at it/like it having
> more responsibilities if the others so deem it fit. But this
> is a fancy detail.


Ever read Animal Farm?


As the working hours will be much shorter, there
> will be plenty of time to organise and participate. so everyone
> will be able to do everything they like.  Working hours
> could be halfed at the moment, if all unemployed had a chance to work
> even if all unused capacities were used.
>

Are salaries cut in half too?

>
> > There is also the problem of value that must be solved in creating a
> > socialist system.  How would a socialist state determine how much of
> > what would be produced, and at what price it would be sold?
>
> The market place is totally useless to decide the real value
> of things, not as commodities, but as necessary/unique things.
> Think about it.


I am thinking...But you still answered how the Socialist system would
do any better.  And you haven't answered the question, who will decide
what is to be produced, how much, and at what price?


> > are considered subjective.  You may, perhaps, agree with Marx (and Adam
> > Smith and David Ricardo as well) that the value of a product is
> > determined by the amount of labour that has been invested in it.  I
>
> In capitalism. Where labour is a commodity.  Value has
> a different meaning in a socialist system. Can you
> think outside an old framework? Try. It will be necessary.
> If not socialism, something else. Capitalism is failing.
> Even capitalists can see that, on the quiet.
> Eva
>

Please, I'm afraid I cannot think otherwise.  I work, because that is
something I can give to somebody else in return for money.  The person
who hires me gains because he has money, but he needs labour.  In the
end I am happy because I get money, which I need to buy clothes, food,
etc.  My boss is happy, because he has somebody to do work for him.

You haven't given me any other framework to choose from.  "Value has a
different meaning in a socialist system" is not very helpful.  First
what is the different meaning?  Second, how are you going to get people
to accept that different meaning once socialism comes?

elvtarsi koszontessel
jim.

\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_

James D. Doepp
Department of Economic Theory
University of Miskolc

I must find a truth that is true
for me... the idea for which I
can live or die.
-Soren Kierkegaard

\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_
+ - The burden is on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Date:    Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:46:15 -0500
> From:    Joe Szalai >
> Subject: Re: The burden's on Durant
>
> At 04:16 AM 2/6/96 -0500, Doepp James wrote:
>
> >What it comes down to is this.  The burden of proof is on you.  We have
> >seen what the market can do despite the
> >distortions of ubiquitous government intervention;
>
> Sorry to disagree James, but the burden of proof is on you.  Why don't you
> tell us how an unfettered market, whose first and only interest is to
> endlessly create capital, is going to lead to a better society?  And better
> in what way, and better for whom?
>

I'm afraid you've got it wrong.  The only interest of the market is not to
"endlessly create capital".  The only interest of the market is to make
profit.  Before you jump on me for saying this, let me define profit.
Profit - for an individual - is the difference (if positive) between
the subjective value he attaches to the end achieved and the subjective
value he attaches to the means that had to be expended to achieve it.
Profit, therefore cannot be measured in money.  One can profit much
from helping those in need.  The profits are not in the
money earned, but in the satisfaction gained that you helped somebody
in their misery.  Most people seem to attach much value to material
wealth.  Would it be right for me to say to someone:  I know what is
good for you and what would make you truly happy; you should not make
money, but you should live off of a simple meal of rice and beans, live
in a thatched hut with mud floors, no indoor plumbing, etc.?
Even if it is true, do I have a right to force somebody into that
situation?  Would he be any happier because of it?  I think it would
only build resentment.


> You point to the 'market' success stories rather carelessly.
>
> >There have been success stories - eg. Japan, Korea, Chile - which have
> >not been equally matched by failures.
>
> Oh really?  How successful were/are Guatemela, El Salvador, Honduras, Haiti,
> Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Brazil, Bangladesh, Philippines, Sri
> Lanka, Thailand, Indonesia, Botswana, Egypt, Gambia, Mali, Zambia, Tanzania,
> black South Africa, etc., etc., etc.?
>

[Did you know that Botswana has the highest growth rate in the world?
It's to do with mineral deposit discoveries, but nonetheless...] We could
look at each of these countries and see how free the market is.  What
we will discover, is that the majority of these are characterised by
high protectionism, large, wasteful government projects, and the heavy
hand of government.  Consider, for example Brazil.  Think of how much
money is now wasted in Brazil because they converted from petrol (gas)
to alcohol in the late 70s.  I was there.  I remember how proud the
government was of this project.  They were betting that the oil crisis
would continue for a good long time, but now they're paying for it.
Add to that the costs of the huge bureaucracy, the protection of the
computer industry (Brazil's computer industry makes very expensive and
poor quality computers) and all the other mega-projects that have
either failed, or have cost far more then they need have.  Is this what
you call free markets?  Your definition must be different from mine.

My choice was careful.  These are countries that rely on the market.
Japan's success is partly due to the fact that the planning agency
(MIDI) tried to follow the market, rather than going against the
market.


> As sure as there are Christian fundamentalists, there are economic
> fundamentalists.  Of course, there are Marxist fundamentalists, and there
> are free market fundamentalists.  Both groups are characterized by rigid
> adherence to fundamental or basic principles.  From your previous posts,
> James, I can only conclude that you are a free market fundamentalist.
>

Does believing in the law of supply and demand make one a "free market
fundementalist"?  Or believing that people make choices according to
the felt uneasiness they expect to reduce in making those choices?  Or
that freedom is better than slavery?  Or that economic growth is better
than economic stagnation?  Well, if so I (and any economist you
come across) am a fundamentalist.  The above are some of the fundamentals
of economics.


> The wellspring of your economic fundamentalist ideology is, no doubt,
> Friedrich August von Hayek's, 1944 text, The Road to Serfdom.   Hayek
> believed that increased government control would lead both to economic
> decline, as state planning replaced the free market, and to the erosion of
> personal liberty.  His solution was to restore economic growth by cutting
> government spending and to get the state out of everything except perhaps
> paving roads or guarding borders.
>
> Hayek's theories are great if you believe that we were born to serve the
> needs of the market.

You've got things backwards.  The market is there because people have
needs.  Some people have more of one thing and need more of another.
Trade takes place when people who have higher needs in one area give up
that which they have lower needs of in order to obtain that which they
feel they have a greater need of.


  However, if you believe, as I do, that human,
> ecological, environmental, social, and perhaps even spiritual needs, are not
> met exclusively by the free market, then Hayek has nothing to offer.
>

There are areas where property rights do not apply, and there
government intervention is desireable.  You already said that above,
when you mentioned the places where Hayek claimed government could
intervene.  Social needs are actually broken apart by government
intervention.  If I am free to choose where to live (cf the South
African situation) with whom I wish to associate, where I wish to go to
school, or send my children, then there is more likelihood that my
social needs will be met.


> Late last year, I admired your willingness to disclose how little money you
> made working as an economics prof in Hungary.  Now that I understand that
> you're doing missionary work (of an economic kind), everything is starting
> to make sense.
>

There is no need for "economic missionaries" here.  People understand
first hand the effects of socialism - on the economy and on society.
If I really wanted to be an "economic missionary" I would have to move
to a US or Canadian university, the last bastion of communism in the world.


> So James,  are you up to explaining how a free market will take us to
> nirvana?

I never said it would.  I only say people would be better off in the
free market system.

 I think the onus of proof is on you and not on Durant.  After all,
> the free market controls most of the world now.  Since this is the Hungarian
> Discussion Group, maybe you can tell us how the free market has helped
> Hungarians.  A simple request, really.

The free market has prevented Hungary from being an even worse basket
case (such as Russia, Ukraine, etc.)  It started in 1968.  Ever heard
of the New Economic Policy?  Well, what it did was allow certain
economic freedoms, which were not in place before.  Managers were given
more control over their firms (even though the firms were still
state-owned).  People were allowed to keep private plots of land. The
private economy (normally called the "second economy") was born.  The
state, especially in the 1980s turned a blind eye to people who worked
two jobs, one "official" while the other in the second economy.  Had
there not been this second economy, and had managers had no control of
their firms, the situation would have been characterised by large
scarcities, bread lines, etc. as it was in the Soviet Union.

Why has there been such an economic depression since 1989?  First, if
you think Hungary had it bad, look at the ex-Soviet Union.  Second,
investment in the socialist state was done politically, and not
according to the demands of consumers.  In opening the market, much of
the capital goods (factories, etc) were found to produce goods for
which there was no demand.  This means adjustment was necessary, and in
many cases bankruptcy was the only option.  Third, a whole new
institutional framework had to be developed, and socialist institutions
had to be dismantled.  Fourth, even today half the economy is in state
hands, taxes are sky-high and the state is bureaucratic and over-sized.

Can the freer market (It will never be free) help Hungary in the
future?  I would suggest you compare Bohemia (now part of the Czech
Republic) and Austria.  At the turn of the century Bohemia was
wealthier than Austria.  Then came the wars, and Bohemia remained on
the socialist side.  Austria's economy is socialistic in many aspects,
but the market is still the major economic role.  In 1989 the per
capita GDP in Bohemia was only a fraction of the Austrian per capita GDP.


jim.


\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_

James D. Doepp
Department of Economic Theory
University of Miskolc

I must find a truth that is true
for me... the idea for which I
can live or die.
-Soren Kierkegaard

\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_

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