Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 845
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-13
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 [Fwd: Airfares from CDI Travel] (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Whose History Should We Believe? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: only one explanation (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: foreign yoke (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: only one explanation (mind)  75 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Communist Reparations (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: poverty (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
14 To everybody (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
18 Sorry (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: poverty (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: only one explanation (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
31 poem - please pass it on (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)

+ - [Fwd: Airfares from CDI Travel] (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 03:06:33 -0800
From: Eva Kinga Farnsworth >
Organization: CDI Travel
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: 
CC: 
Subject: Airfares from CDI Travel
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Felhivom mindenki figyelmet, hogy az olcso repulojegyek vetele meg mindig 
 hatanyban van.  A legitarsasagok az uj hataridot november 15-ig toltak 
ki.  USA legtobb varosabol Europa varosaiba  az olcso, leengedett arak 
meg mindig ervenyesek.  Az indulas es visszajoveteli datumok varosonkent 
valtoznak.  A karacsonyi szezonra mindig tudok a Malev nagykereskedoi 
aron jutanyos arakat nyujtani-tehat azokra az idokre amik nincsenek a 
leszalitott arazasba befoglalva.
Elnezest azoktol akik az elmult 6 napon probaltak velem erintkezesbe 
lepni, de az egesz computerem, e-mail-el egyutt lerobbant es csak most 
lett az uj programmozas keszen, igy az e-mail-ek visszapattantak.

November 15-ig meg nem keso, varom a jelentkezoket.

Udvozlettel,
Farnsworth Eva
CDI Travel
105 Marshville Road
Ft. Plain, NY 13339
Tel:  518 993-4955 vagy 3141
Fax:  518 993-3141
E-mail:   
+ - Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:59 PM 11/9/96 GMT, Bandi Rozsa wrote:

>All those Russian language classes that the commies of the 50s Romania
>forced on us (Russian was compulsory from grade 4 on) were completely
>wasted on me.
>
>However..... :-[
>
>krasivoi/vaia - beautiful
>krasnoi/naia - red

        This is true but both words have the same etymology, as far as I know.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Whose History Should We Believe? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:29 PM 11/9/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:
>Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>      Again, you are using literary figures in support of your analysis of
>> history. But these writers had a certain political outlook and they saw the
>> world through certain ideological glasses. One cannot rely on them to
>> explain to us the past in an objective manner.
>
>The works of Illyes, Kassak, Albert Wass is read by millions and will be
>read for generations to come. They described life in their time honestly
>and eloquently, unlike many studies by historians written for a PhD or to
>ensure a caveated tenured position at a University.

        Fine, Barna. It is such a pleasure to try to teach history for
people who simply refuse to reconsider. I do hope that the younger
generation will be more open to more balanced ideas about the past.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:35 PM 11/10/96 GMT, Liviu wrote:

>Dear George, nothing pissed me off more than your moronic charges of
>anti-this and anti-that. There is nothing anti-Hungarian in my saying
>that I'm not interested in your personal life. Even if I got personal,
>which I did not, at least not yet, that still doesn't mean I'm getting
>anti-Hungarian.

        I must say I felt not a trace of anti-Hungarian bias in anything
Liviu has been saying on this list. On the contrary, I find him most open
minded. As for Romanian dialects, Hungarian doesn't really have dialects
either in the sense we think of dialects: Hungarian has some regional
differences in phonology and a few regional words but nothing like dialects,
let's say, of English in Great Britain.

        As for the relationship between ordinary Romanians and
Hungarians--as opposed to politicians--my understanding is that they get
along just fine for the most part.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Zimanyi Magdolna wrote:

> I would suggest not to mention the three names together: there are big
> differences. Illyes was never a party member. And of course never
> mention Klara Feher together with the aforementioned three names: she
> was on a much lower level anyhow...
>
I agree, I should not have brought Illyes into Meray's company. I
apologize for it.

Only Tibor Meray fits perfectly the type I wanted to illustrate. He was
one of the distinguished ex-Hungarian who were invited this year in
February to help Horn to solve Hungary's problems. He gave the eulogy
during Imre Nagy's re-burial in 1989.

> 1956. However, we learned his name as the war correspondent of Szabad
> Nep -- the party's daily newspaper -- during the Korean War. In his
> most famous articles he stated that the American imperialists are
> fighting the heroic Korean people by throwing poisoned flies from
> airplanes into Korean territory. There was also a proof for this: he
> sent home photos -- they were duly published in Hungarian newspapers
> -- showing the flies. We did not see the poison on the photos but this
> did not matter, the proof was there...

I don't remember this story, but I can well imagine the reaction to it.
May be some in the list will also enjoy a few priceless lines from his
poetry.

Az O nevevel

Egy hete ma'r - he't nap e's he't e'j -
O:ve' minden gondolatom.
Ko:nyvet irok s nem megy az ira's,
A ke'pe't ne'zem a falon.
So:te't keret, feket szalag.
Lete'pen azt a szalagot.
Nem valo', illo", melto' Hozza'-
Ma'sikat hozzatok.
Vo:ro:set: forradalmi za'szlo't,
Fehe'ret: be'ke'nek sze'p szine't
Zo:ldet: gyo"zelmi pa'lmaa'gat -
...

A non-poetic translation:

 With His Name

 For a week now - seven days and seven nights -
 All my thoughts are His
 I am trying to write a book, but it is impossible
 I can't get my eyes off his picture on the wall.
 Dark frame, black ribbon.
 I tear off that ribbon.
 It is unbecoming of Him -
 Bring in others.
 A red one: for the revolution
 A white one: for peace
 A green one: for victory
 ...

It gets even better later on. For me the Rakosi era poetry is so funny
now. Some people fund it funny even then, and spent years in prison for it.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Nov  4 17:48:34 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #838:

><snip>
>
>Why is it silly, Ferenc?  I said that I haven't seen you oppose any
>injustice in our society on this newsgroup.  You could prove me wrong by
>simply citing a few of your posts where you do.  Good luck!
>
>Joe Szalai

I tell you why, Joe:  I can't accept the premise of having to publicly oppose
(or condone, for that matter), any perceived or real social injustice on this
or any other newsgroup in order to have a right to speak my mind on any
particular issue.  Your proposed credentialing process reminds me of
practices, all too familiar to many here (I believe), of the various
dictatorships (of right and left) when one was expected to voice one's total
dedication to whatever the particular political establishment decreed to be
the one and only correct way of thinking.  I came to these shores to get away
from such coercion and I am not about to let anyone persuade me to submit to
it again.

Regards,

Ferenc
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Nov  4 22:35:16 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #838:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>> Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
>>for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!

>Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
>be a citizen to vote.

Even if the above criteria are all met, one can still NOT vote outside of
Hungary.  This seems to be the real issue.

>Can non-citizens vote in the USA?

No.  I don't think anyone is talking about non-citizens.

>Americans who settle permanently outside
>the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.

As far as I know they can as long as they retain their citizenship.

Ferenc
+ - Re: foreign yoke (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Nov  5 23:30:53 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #839:

>Yesterday we had some pre-election chat at the office at lunchtime, and
>someone defended the thesis that Reagan did the right thing (with which I
>agreed) and that the Soviet Union was a paper tiger anyway (about which I
was
>more skeptical). He proceeded to explain that the only time since WWII when
>they tried something they failed (in Afghanistan). OK, I said, so how about
>Czechoslovakia in 68, or how about Hungary in 56? Yes, but there was no real
>fight, no resistance offered, he said, without skipping a beat.

That "without skipping a beat"  REALLY makes this convincing.

>This guy is
>old enough to remember a great deal about 56 (he was a university student in
>Belgium at the time, and followed the events with great interest), and by no
>means a left-liberal. Furthermore, his information came from the western
media
>coverage of the events, not from the Soviet propaganda machine.
>
>Andras Kornai

If this is the best he can do to support his thesis, Mr. Kornai has my
sympathy.  I would have expected him to come up with a little more to support
his pet theory than a water-cooler conversation with someone half a continent
away at the time.  The fact that he believes such a non-witness more than
many thousands who were actually there and did a lot more than reading the
western publications is simply astounding.

Ferenc
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [Australia]
> Temakor: ( 48 sor )
Idopont:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Georg Antony wrote on Sun Nov  3 19:36:34 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #837:

>Ference (sic!) Novak wrote:

                            <snip>

>> Professing Marxist ideology was de rigeur until
>> almost the end.

>You have no idea what 'de rigeur' means.

Sorry, but I do.

>  Professing Marxist ideology was
>far from de rigeur: in some cases it was very much the opposite (private
>conversations in intellectual circles),

I was not talking about * private * conversations and you know it.

 in other cases it was an unavoidable
>rite (e.g., talking to the personnel manager of most insitutes or companies
>about the possibility of any promotion).

This is not what I meant either.  Please don't play dumb.

>> Hence the idea of serving, however indirectly or
>> unwittingly, the communist cause.

>That is guilt by association: anyone who lived under a communist regime,
>accepted its authority as evidenced by not rebelling against it, and at
>some time uttered anything against his/her conviction to avoid
complications,
>anyone who did that was 'serving the communist cause'

This is just more of the same obfuscation.

>This leaves as untainted upstanding people only those who either did some-
>thing against the regime (counted in the hundreds out of some 10 million in
>Hungary) or those who left the country not to be tainted.

>I presume you are among the latter: in this case, your continuing efforts to
>make intellectuals who continued to live in Hungary look tainted is merely
>a self-serving way of dealing with your own frustrations.

Thanks for the diagnosis, unhelpful and ignorant as it is.

>> Also, to be declared a traitor to Marxism,
>> one would have to be a declared Marxist.

>In the eyes of the regime, people were Marxist, by default, unless proven
>otherwise.

You may know something I don't.  Being on the other side, I was in no
position to know what the regime thought.  What I know is that  up until the
very last years of the Kadar regime it was virtually impossible to publish
any work in the area of economics, politics, philosophy and sociology from a
non-marxist viewpoint.

>I suggest that dealing with your own past may be more effectively done by
>seeing a shrink than by insulting everybody who did not leave Hungary
>when you did and even had the temerity to make a name for themselves.
>
>George Antony

Well, now, I must have touched a raw nerve.  Don't worry, I have no intention
to accuse you.  So please don't get excited and make sure to take your
medication right on schedule.  Though you seem to have lucid periods, at
times you still sound paranoid.  Or maybe just overly defensive.  I wonder
why.

Ferenc
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I was about to express my pleasure at the changes that seemed to have come
over some of the HIX newsgroups lately; a more civilized style, a less shrill
tone used even by some of the more militant contributors.  The most
astounding change for me was finding several articles by a new, more tolerant
Eva Balogh who, since her return to FORUM a couple of months ago, has shown
herself capable of debating without the name-calling and personal attacks
that had been her trademarks on this list in the past.  Even here, for the
most part, she successfully restrained her belligerency to such a remarkable
extent that I began to look forward to reading her many interesting and
valuable postings.  I think I wasn't alone in hoping that the era of negative
"cross-referencing" so roundly renounced by all sides had ended.

Unfortunately, this was not to last.

 on Nov  7 19:52:02 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #841:

                                <snip>

>      And what I find even more sickening is that all the right wingers on
>the Forum stand by good old Klara Feher. Communist? Rakosi regime? A cheat?
>The author of the most God-awful communist drivel? Never mind. She is one of
>us now! Let's work on public opinion and let's try to make sure that neither
>democracy nor market economy will work around here. And a few days after the
>appearance of this piece of drivel, the skinheads lead by a neo-nazi are
>throwing chicken feet on the stairs of a public building "in order to call
>attention to the plight of the retired people." Now, this is really neat!
>Words do have power, don't they? Chicken feet? I guess it is hard to throw
>chicken skin!
>
>        Sorry, being carried away, but I find this sickening. And by the
>way, it never fails: strange bedfellows can be found on this list also, when
>it comes to demagoguery.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Eva, why didn't you level your charges on FORUM rather than here?  Do you
enjoy playing the role of Dr Jekyll on FORUM and Miss Hyde on HUNGARY?
You should have the courage to accuse people directly, rather than hiding (no
pun intended) in the English-language list some of your intended targets
don't (or can't) read and therefore can't respond to.  This is not a very
honorable thing to do.

Ferenc

PS.  I would like to know who "all the right-wingers" on FORUM are?
+ - Re: Communist Reparations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>
>A few years ago I heard there was a Hungarian government program to
>reimburse families for property seized illegally by the Communist
>government after WWII. Is that program still valid or pending?
>
So far I know, it is still valid.  Why don't you ask the Hungarian
Consulate.

Agnes
>The contest doesn't always go to the strong or the race to the swift,
>but that's how you should bet.
>
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 12:37 PM 11/8/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>>Do you?  How would you solve poverty?  Or is that not a concern of
yours?
>
I would like to point out here that, as everything, poverty can be
relative.  A little story will illustrate that.
We were in Canada, Montreal for 3 years.  We have just bought our first
car, a basic little Vauxhall.  We also bought camping gear, i.e. a
beautiful tent, Coleman, etc., packed up our two children and took of to
Algonquin Park.  We thought we were the richest people on earth to be
able to afford all these.  Naturally, I was working full time and we
lived in a rented appartment. (Central heating, balcony, appliances and
closets - oh what divine luxuries!)

Next day, a large family moved into the neighbouring site.  5 children, a
station wagon, a tent trailer.  As it turned out, the man was a letter
carrier from Scarborough.  The wife, of course, was a home maker and they
owned their home.
All these happened shortly before the very first national postal strike.
When I asked the posty to please don't go on strike because they would
strike against the public, he looked at me and said, "what's the
difference - we are starving anyway!"

Agnes
+ - Re: poverty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I don't understand A. Kornai's forward post of a digest of the
HIX Forum, I did not send their any mail  in recent years.
Any explanation? Or is this the same as a Hungary list digest?

+ - To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear listmembers,

if you have(had) time and intention to read my and S.Stowe's posting about
War Criminals, please answer my questions.

i, Do you think I am making as nasty personal attacks as Sam does? Are
these personal attacks nasty at all, or my English left me behind again?

Some pearls from me and Sam:

Me:

>If it was not joke than I congratulate. You set a new record, this was your
>biggest 'marhasag' (~ BS in English)  up to date. Why do I think so?

Sam:

>That you even pretend to think will come as a shock to most members of
>this list. Thanks for teaching me "marhasag", though. I need this kind of
>technical vocabulary if I ever hope to adequately discuss in Hungarian
>what passes for electro-chemical activity within the echoing, empty
>confines of your skull.

Me:

>First, you might think those people in Rwanda and Kurdistan are uncivilized,
>unable to run their country, but still that is their land, home. You have
>no right to throw your 'garbage' there.

Sam:

>First of all, I doubt a wet-wipe like you gives two hoots in hell about
>Rwanda and Kurdistan.

Sam:

>P.S. -- How's that big, fat chip on your shoulder doing?

Me:

>I have never made such personal attack against you. Don't you think you
>should moderate yourself?

Sam:

>Here you overreach yourself and begin to lie like a cheap rug. Show some
>moderation and moderation will be shown you. Until you do, you're still a
>two-bit punk who can't think for himself.

Remark: Sam, if you think something should be added to this list, just go
ahead!

ii, What do you think about Sam's idea about sending the war criminals
to third world countries as UN stuff? Am I the only one who feels this
idea is odd, considering the possible attitude and the age of these people.

J.Zs

P.S: I don't say a mass-murderer cannot change by time, but I think
it is not necessarily a usual everyday event.
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Listmembers!

At 23:07 09/11/96 -0500, Aniko wrote:
>At 10:28 AM 09/11/96 -0500, Joe S. wrote:
>>At 06:03 PM 11/8/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>Joe - Eva; I agree with each of your views, and I believe that this is what
>Amos has been saying also.
>
>>
>><snip>
>>>        They want the law changed because they think that the law as it is
>>>written now stinks. What nonsense that diplomats who happen to be outside of
>>>the country at the time of the election cannot vote. Or students who are
>>>simply studying abroad for a year or two. Or six months, doesn't matter. A
>>>law which makes no provision for cases like that is a stupid law.
>>
>>I agree.
>
<snippety snip>
 But as
>>>long as I am considered to be a Hungarian citizen, I should be entitled to
>>>vote. The current consitution denies that right but I wonder how one can
>>>defend such a decision, simply on grounds of common sense. The right of the
>>>ballot is part and parcel of citizenship.
>>
>>Only those who are permanent residents of Hungary should be allowed to vote
>>in Hungarian elections.  Citizenship should mean more than just a piece of
>>paper that says you were born in Hungary or born to Hungarian parents.  Only
>>those who live and vote in Hungary should enjoy the success or failure of
>>their ballot.  Those of us who now live abroad should be content to just
>>observe.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>>

I might be able to contribute something to this discussion, because,
although I am not Hungarian, I am a dual Canadian-U.S. citizen, residing in
Canada, who votes in elections in both countries. Without belaboring the
point unduly, I do not feel my dual loyalties are the equivalent of bigamy
as someone suggested in an earlier message. I have chosen to live in Canada,
my citizenship gives me an opportunity to participate fully in the life of
the country that I live in (at the time, I had to become a citizen in order
to practice law in Canada). At the same time, remember I was a member of the
U.S. Navy when I settled here (I was on exchange duty with the Canadian
Forces) and only got out of the service to stay with a Canadian gentleman.
So, I had feelings of love for my country and loyalty to it.

What I have found is that I don't find there is a problem with dual
citizenship as long as the countries to which one owes allegiance as long as
those countries are not in conflict, and I haven't found my dual citizenship
to be a problem so far.

Surely there are many instances of dual citizenship among the readers of the
List. Aniko, are you a dual citizen? Do you return to Hungary to vote? If so
you are able to do so because you have the financial resources to do so. I
maintain that it is not fair on the part of any country to deny its citizens
the right to vote so arbitrarily, to deny people the right to vote who may
not be able to manage the cost of a trip - or who may not be able to spare
the time to return to the country to cast a ballot.

I do think it is important that the citizens who choose to vote be
knowledgeable about the candidates and the issues they are voting on. But
with the plethora (isn't that a great word!) of news sources about Hungary
which I am getting through the Internet, I cannot help but believe that
residents of the U.S. and Australia, for example, may be just as
knowledgeable about the issues as local residents. Also, somebody in an
earlier similar discussion months ago referred to the citizens who live in
the country as *stakeholders,* but I think the result of allowing
non-residents to vote is that they continue to feel like *stakeholders*,
that this encourages them to feel that they are contributing to the society
in their own way, and this in turn will encourage the maintenance of other
ties with the homeland such as Aniko refers to in her other post. I feel I
am just as much a stakeholder in the U.S. as the people who actually reside
and pay taxes there. I may well return there some day to live, and I
continue to have ties of family and property there, and therefore I feel I
should be entitled to exercise that inherent part of citizenship, the right
to vote.

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:07 PM 11/9/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Charlie
>
>First of all - - At 08:26 AM 09/11/96 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately, as matter stand right now, this is exactly the situation now.
>>Hungarian citizenship -- as far as Hungarian law and as far as the Hungarian
>>Government is concerned -- is nothing more than a piece of paper that says
>>you were born in Hungary or born to Hungarian parents.  Those of us who live
>>abroad are observing.
>
>Disagree.
>>
<<  snip >>

Rather than repeat everything I -- and you -- have said, let's agree to
disagree.

Charlie Vamossy
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hate to be a fusspot, but I just can't stand inaccurate,
ill-informed utterances. Therefore, I have to point out that Barna Bozoki
not only doesn't know any history, but he has some problems with literature
as well.

        >I don't know what she did in the Rakosi era, but I
>am not surprised that she joined the communists, many people oppressed and
>persecuted during the Horthy era did with the belief that they are working
>for a better society (Illyes, Meray, Dery, .. ).

        Well, let's start with Illyes. Illyes was born in 1902 and came from
a landless peasant family. With the financial help of family members he
finished gymnasium, which in those days meant a high educational attainment
because very few people ever finished university. Being a young man in 1919
he got involved with the revolutionary upheavals and decided to emigrate. He
spent almost a whole decade in France, where he eventually attended the
Sorbonne and worked as a school teacher. He returned to Hungary in 1928; was
employed as a clerk and began publishing in *Nyugat,* the most prestigious
monthly literary magazine. His collected poems were also published in the
same year. Between 1931 and 1936 he received the Baumgarten Prize four
times! After a brief encounter with "the working-class movement" he joined
the populists. In 1934 he is the one the Soviets invited to represent
Hungary at the Moscow Writers' Congress. Eventually he becomes the editor of
*yugat.* During the German occupation he was in hiding. He joins the Nemzeti
Parasztpart and for a brief period he is a parliamentary deputy.

        OK. Let's stop right here. Do you really think that Gyula Illyes
"was oppressed and persecuted" by the Horthy regime? Only once he had a bit
of trouble with the authorities because he wrote a pamphlet against the
death penalty. Illyes certainly didn't think much of the regime and his
literary output reflected this but "oppressed" "persecuted"? No, he wasn't.

        OK. Let's move on to Tibor Meray. Since Meray was born only in 1924
he wasn't really old enough to have any serious political or literary role
before 1945. He finished gymnasium in Budapest and enrolled at the
University of Budapest, majoring in Hungarian and Latin (1942-46). In 1945
immediately joined the communist party and became a party functionary in
charge of "culture." Thus, his decision to join the party certainly wasn't
motivated by "oppression and persecution" under the Horthy regime. More
likely, he was motivated by the fact of the Holocaust as many survivors did.

        Tibor Dery. Born in 1894. According to the Irodalmi Lexikon, he came
"from a well-to-do bourgeois family." After finishing gymnasium his family
sent him to Switzerland to study languages. He became a member of the Bela
Kun's communist party and member of the Writers' Directory. As a result he
was briefly arrested, but he left Hungary in 1920 and spent years abroad.
Without recounting all his travels, I can assure you that Tibor Dery,
although spent a few months here and there in Hungary, actually didn't
really live in Horthy's Hungary until about 1938. He was the only one among
the three writers mentioned by Barna, who was actually the member of the
illegal communist party all through the period. But although he might not
have been the regime's favorite, he wasn't "persecuted" and "oppressed"
partly because he wasn't living in Hungary and partly because "persecuted"
and "oppressed" are the wrong words to describe the situation of writers
critical of the regime. But, of course, he immediately joined Rakosi's
communist party and became a favorite writer of the regime. But not for
long. By 1956 he was stripped of his party membership and in 1957 as a
result of Dery's activities and utterances during and after the revolution,
he received a nine-year jail sentence.

        Somewhere else Barna mentioned the name of Lajos Kassak. He was born
in 1887. He did come from a poor family and worked as a steel worker and as
such came into contact with the social democratic party. His literary career
began in 1908 and by the time the Horthy regime rolls around he was a fairly
well established writer and painter. Given his background he took part in
the Hungarian Soviet Republic and left for Vienna where he stayed until
1926. As the "Irodalmi Lexikon" says "during the 1930s he became gradually
disillusioned with the revolutionary working-class movement." Never joined
the party after 1945 and in the 1950s he was not even allowed to publish.
After 1956 a few of his work became again available. I think he died in
1967. Not exactly the favorite of the regime.

        But to return to Tibor Meray. Magda Zimanyi is quite right, Tibor
Merey was also extremely involved with the Rakosi regime but began to have
second thoughts by 1955. He certainly was a "reform communist," and I assume
that's why he left Hungary via Yugoslavia in November 1956 when it was still
possible to cross the Austro-Hungarian border with relative ease. And one
more thing: unlike Klara Feher, Tibor Meray didn't simply leave out his
*Koreai jelentesek* (1953) from the list of his works in the Hungarian Who's
Who. And, let me add, he didn't rush back to Hungary and began writing
demagogic little pieces in *Nepszava.*

        And one more thing, I do hope, Barna, that you are not trying to
"enlighten" your Canadian friends on the course of twentieth-century
Hungarian history because I'm afraid your knowledge is simply a combination
of the worst kind of history taught in the 1950s and your family's personal
recollections. I do suggest that you read a bit more on the subject even if
you think that historians are for the birds and they simply write boring
Ph.D. dissertations and useless books in order to gain tenure.


        Eva Balogh
+ - Sorry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It appears a large portion of HUNGARY escaped from my editor when it
dumped core the other day, 1000 lines of quoted material to grace
the next issue. This is the second time this happened in the past three
years, and I apologize for the inconvenience. Will edit more defensively
from now on (not inside my mailer but on a freestanding file). The actual
content of my message (a response to Barna and others) seems to have been
lost -- will recreate and repost, hopefully with no glitches next time.

Andras Kornai
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 11 Nov 1996 Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>        As for crossposting. I sure wasn't the one who brought up the
> discussion on the Forum. Why don't you people ask Barna Bozoki about this.
> He was the one who posted Klara Feher's piece on the Forum and subsequently
> he was the one who brought up the subject on this list.

I am glad you asked this question. I feel guilty about it, so let me
confess how it happened.

On Nov 7, 1996 on the subject of: "The Value of the Internet Discussion"
I wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:59:51 -0500 Joe Szalai wrote in response to my
> comment about my previous attempts to start a discussion about poverty:
>
>> What do you mean by "failed"?  I don't recall your posts, but do you mean
>> that you couldn't convince people of your point of view?  In a discussion no
>> one fails except, perhaps, those who don't express themselves.
>
> I was referring to my post on the Hungarian language FORUM quoting a well
> known ex-communist writer's writing about poverty. I was disappointed that
> the discussion turned into a bashing of the writers character, rather than
> a discussion of the message.

This is it folks. That is what I said and naively I thought that this was
the end of this subject. Joe was satisfied, nobody commented anything,
except Eva. She came out with a very detailed summary of FORUM discussion,
spiced it with her usual biased vitriolic comments.

Please don't misunderstand me again. I have nothing against Eva's posts, I
love them. Where would this list be without her? It would have died long
time ago. There would be nothing to write about.

Take this case for example, if she did not jump in with all guns firing
into the Klara Feher controversy, Peter Hidas probably would not have
reported that: "According to Hungary Report unemployment in Hungary is
about 12%. [...] in the Miskolc area unemployment is much higher. There are
about half a million Romas who are mostly unskilled; unemployment in some
of their villages is hitting 80%. Inflation is about 22%. "

And we would not have heard all those interesting details about the Rakosi
era. So Eva, please keep up the good fight, most of us appreciate it, even
if we don't agree with you.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Johanne:

        Your letter on citizenship and voting rights is a gem. I subscribe
to everything you said, including that thanks to modern technology one can
be as well informed--if not better if he/she sets his/her mind to it--than
any person living at the other end of the earth. My relatives were
absolutely floored last March when I was visiting how well informed I was. I
could certainly hold my own in any kind of political discussion. They may
not have agreed with everything but they certainly appreciated that my
opinions were based on factual knowledge.

        More than two years ago there was an earlier discussion in the Forum
about voting rights. One of the contributors argued that one reason for
denying the right to vote to people who live outside of the country is their
ignorance of Hungarian political life. At this point a young man who was
working on his Ph.D. in this country and therefore had been away from
Hungary for a number of years wanted to prove that he was just as well
informed or perhaps better than most people who lived in Hungary. From
memory I named more than 100 parliamentary deputies! I was impressed. And
that reminds me the Hungarian parliament has a fabulous website: every bit
of information on all members, including their pictures and biographies,
their voting records, the parlimanetary debates themselves are all available.

        And one more thing. If the Hungarian political elite is afraid that
the non-resident Hungarians will vote in hordes and very conservatively, I
think, they are wrong on both accounts. Not too many people would exercise
their rights (moreover, knowing the Hungarian ways of doing things, it would
be most likely so complicated that one's enthusiasm would evaporate in no
time) and, as my own case proves, not everybody would for parties on the
right of the political spectrum.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:47 PM 11/11/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:

>I would like to point out here that, as everything, poverty can be
>relative.  A little story will illustrate that.
>We were in Canada, Montreal for 3 years.  We have just bought our first
>car, a basic little Vauxhall.  We also bought camping gear, i.e. a
>beautiful tent, Coleman, etc., packed up our two children and took of to
>Algonquin Park.  We thought we were the richest people on earth to be
>able to afford all these.  Naturally, I was working full time and we
>lived in a rented appartment. (Central heating, balcony, appliances and
>closets - oh what divine luxuries!)
>
>Next day, a large family moved into the neighbouring site.  5 children, a
>station wagon, a tent trailer.  As it turned out, the man was a letter
>carrier from Scarborough.  The wife, of course, was a home maker and they
>owned their home.
>All these happened shortly before the very first national postal strike.
>When I asked the posty to please don't go on strike because they would
>strike against the public, he looked at me and said, "what's the
>difference - we are starving anyway!"

        That is funny and very true. After arriving in Canada I was making
95 dollars a month plus room and board and I thought that I was a
millionaire in comparison of the living standards in Hungary at the time.

        The Hungarian attitude toward poverty can be odd. Let me give you a
couple of examples. In December 1993 I was visiting relatives who came by
car to pick me up at the airport. As we were driving home my cousin drops
little hints about how hard their lives are: they have to pick up
second-hand clothes in the "turkalo." "Turkalo" as it turned out is similar
to rammage sale in this country. Eva was awkwardly silent. My God! I said to
myself. Life is that bad that a doctor and his wife, who is the principal of
a school, must buy their clothes in rammage sales! I am not denying that my
cousin may have visited a rummage sale but at the same time they are the
owners of two apartments, a commercial building which is rented, and a
weekend place in the mountains.

        Or, the other day I received a letter from a friend from Hungary who
has been contemplating of buying a dog. But, says she, she can't afford a
pure-bred dog because they are so terribly expensive. The same person spent
two weeks in England 1995 and last year she spent two weeks in New England.
Subsequently I heard that in January she is visiting South Africa! Even my
former home-room teacher, whom I do consider poor, told me that she has
visited every country of Europe (she goes every year) with the exception of
Finland. Thus, it is obvious that we all have different notions of what
being poor means.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: poverty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:36 PM 11/11/90 +0000, Eva Durant wrote:
>I don't understand A. Kornai's forward post of a digest of the
>HIX Forum, I did not send their any mail  in recent years.
>Any explanation? Or is this the same as a Hungary list digest?


        I received two copies of it and I was planning to write to Andras
about it because I think it is simply a screw-up perhaps due to the trouble
at MCI--that's why we didn't get any of our subscribed lists for two days.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:07 PM 11/11/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote, addressing me:
>Do you
>enjoy playing the role of Dr Jekyll on FORUM and Miss Hyde on HUNGARY?
>You should have the courage to accuse people directly, rather than hiding (no
>pun intended) in the English-language list some of your intended targets
>don't (or can't) read and therefore can't respond to.  This is not a very
>honorable thing to do.
>
>Ferenc
>
>PS.  I would like to know who "all the right-wingers" on FORUM are?

        First of all, I would like to straighten you out on who is militant
and who is unfair on these lists. You, for example, have delivered quite a
few, ugly blows at your opponents. These blows more often than not were
personal, under the belt, attacks on other people. I for one do not engage
in such attacks, personal or otherwise. And, I don't play roles. I am who I
am and I am the same on the Forum and on the Hungary. I am not hiding behind
anything. I told several times on the Forum as well as on the Hungary that
they are some right-wing people on both lists--the same people by and large.

        Let me tell you whom I consider right-wing. Anyone whose ideas
approximate the ideologies of MIEP, the Smallholders, and the Christian
Socialists who follow Giczy's leadership. I am withholding judgment on the
Lezsak-led MDF but most likely I will have to include them as well. Thus,
there are a number of people both on the Forum and on Hungary who could be
included in this group.

        What I can't quite understand is this: why do people on the
"nemzeti" side consider that label "right-wing" so negative. Surely, people
call me liberal all the time and I don't get upset. How can I be when, by
Hungarian standards (not American), I am liberal. I do get upset when some
of our rightwingers call me a communist because surely I am not and never
was a communist. I also get upset when people accuse others of absolutely
unsupported evil deeds: agents of the secret service (whether that secret
service is Romanian or Hungarian), paid agents of certain parties,
turncoats, rats, stupid instruments of Jewish conspiracy and so on and so
forth. I am afraid some of our right-wingers love to throw these accusations
around.

        Of course, I am not going name people whom I consider to be
right-wingers, but there are maybe a dozen of them altogether. Some of them
live in Hungary and some of them abroad. They contribute to both lists.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:47 PM 11/9/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>At 12:49 PM 11/9/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>There are as many versions of "socialism" as there are versions of any
>>"-ism".  To dismiss them all is to show prejudice.
>
>Please enlighten me about the basic differences between some of these versions
.

Sorry.  That's your job.  The thing about caring and sharing is that it
works better if if comes from within.

<snip>
>Are you prejudiced against engineers? Beware, without us there would be no
>factories with workers to strike, etc.

Am I supposed to be glad that there are factories where people can work all
their life (if they're lucky!), and then die?

>Also, in 1956 the Revolution was
>started with the 16 demands of the engineering students.

And?

<snip>
>I said hope, not faith. After all we, engineers just give you, the rest the
>tools. Engineers seldom make decisions about how those tools are used. And
>the idea of the atomic bomb was born in the head of physicists, not that of
>engineers.

Yes, I know you said "hope".  That's why I put quotation marks around "faith".

Joe Szalai

"In economics, hope and faith coexist with great scientific pretension and
also a deep desire for respectability."
            John Kenneth Galbraith
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:22 PM 11/11/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        As for the relationship between ordinary Romanians and
>Hungarians--as opposed to politicians--my understanding is that they get
>along just fine for the most part.

Perhaps they do but I can tell you that one of the most common cusses in
Hungarian, that I'm aware of, if I remember correctly, is: Azt a kurva
roma'n e'des anyja'd.  Imagine what the cussing would be like if they didn't
get along!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:07 PM 11/11/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>  on Nov  4 17:48:34 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #838:
>
>><snip>
>>
>>Why is it silly, Ferenc?  I said that I haven't seen you oppose any
>>injustice in our society on this newsgroup.  You could prove me wrong by
>>simply citing a few of your posts where you do.  Good luck!
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>I tell you why, Joe:  I can't accept the premise of having to publicly
>oppose (or condone, for that matter), any perceived or real social
injustice >on this or any other newsgroup in order to have a right to speak
my mind on >any particular issue.

I wasn't questioning your right to speak your mind and you know it.  And no,
you don't have to publicly oppose or condone anything, but when you say such
and such a thing, and I ask for a few citations, and you can't provide them,
then you lose all credibility.

>Your proposed credentialing process reminds me of
>practices, all too familiar to many here (I believe), of the various
>dictatorships (of right and left) when one was expected to voice one's total
>dedication to whatever the particular political establishment decreed to be
>the one and only correct way of thinking.  I came to these shores to get
>away from such coercion and I am not about to let anyone persuade me to
>submit to it again.

Oh, paleeease!  Can someone pass me the Kleenex!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>krasnoi/naia means also beatufil (see Krasnaja plosag - Red Square, but also
>means Beautiful Square)
>
>L. Monoki

        And I just noticed that "leto krasnoe" means beautiful summer or
"krasnye dni" means beautiful days.

        By the way, I think that in the geographic name mentioned by David
the meaning is most likely "beautiful."

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 12 Nov 1996 Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>        I hate to be a fusspot, but I just can't stand inaccurate,
>ill-informed utterances. Therefore, I have to point out that Barna Bozoki
>not only doesn't know any history, but he has some problems with literature
>as well.

True, and Eva Balogh does not know a thing about electric power
distribution, but she is ready to argue that it must be privatized in
order to be modernized, and she does not know elementary statistics
but use it to prove her point.

[A nice lecture on Illyes biography is delated]
>        OK. Let's stop right here. Do you really think that Gyula Illyes
>"was oppressed and persecuted" by the Horthy regime?

I think of him as a person who spoke for the oppressed classes. I remember
him as an author often quoted in the Rakosi area. He was decorated with 1st
class Kossuth price in 1948 and again in 1953. I guess he would be a critic
of the MSZMP-SZDSZ coalition if he were alive today, and would write
"demagoguery" like the "Egy mondat" (One sentence). His protege Csoori is
not very kind to the government, even though he is on the Parliament's
payroll. (I will get into trouble again)

On Meray:
> he was motivated by the fact of the Holocaust as many survivors did.
So he WAS one of the persecuted.

[Tibor Dery biography delated]

I thought he was Jewish, therefore he was persecuted, if he was not Jewish
I stand corrected.

>        Somewhere else Barna mentioned the name of Lajos Kassak.

Yes indeed. In an other context. For me he is an excellent source to learn
about the ugly side of the pre-WWII Hungarian life.  The treatment of
factory workers, the "trogers" (quoting from your description) like Horn's
family, or the family of that unnamed critic of the Horthy regime you hate
so much. I suggest you read at least the first volume of the "Egy ember
elete", then we discuss Kassak in more detail.

>recollections. I do suggest that you read a bit more on the subject even if
>you think that historians are for the birds and they simply write boring
>Ph.D. dissertations and useless books in order to gain tenure.

OK, I will. Why don't you help to get those history books on the Internet,
so I get them easier.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:16 AM 11/11/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<sinp>
>        I have a very low opinion of people who were whole-hearted
>supporters of the Kadar regime and who in 1990 turned around 180 degrees. I
>consider them to be turncoats, men and women without integrity. I understand
>that everybody had to make compromises in Hungary, but there is a threshold
>which divides the ordinary survivor from avid supporter.

They're both necessary for any system to exist.  As the saying goes: If
they're not against us, they're with us.  I'm sorry but I can't shed too
many alligator tears for "the ordinary survivor" because that would be
supporting those who opt for political complacency.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:49 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>Budapest is thriving, no
>question about it. Unemployment is practically nonexistent and as several
>people on Internet lists said on the spot: anyone can get a job who wants to
>get it. In some other parts of the Hungary the situation is not that rosy,
>especially in the northeast.

Then, at 11:16 AM 11/11/96 -0500, she wrote:

>        Dear Magda Zimanyi and readers of this list:

<snip>
>People talked
>about poverty just as much then as now. People were disappointed in the
>changes just as much as they are disappointed today. Everybody told me that
>things were so bad that they couldn't get any worse! Today, apparently they
>are worse. And when I mentioned the other day that the last time I was in
>Hungary was in March, I was told that since then the situation had worsened
>so much that I simply don't know what I am talking about!

This is rather amazing.  On November 7, Eva Balogh tells us that things are
hunky-dory in Hungary.  Then, four days later, she concedes that things are
bad, indeed.  This apparent flexibility is just one of the benefits of not
having an ideology.  What I still don't understand is her relationship to facts
.

Joe Szalai
+ - poem - please pass it on (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If we can save just one single life, it will be worth it.

Thanks!
Martha

> ------------------------------------------------------------

>From the Author: Please, forward this to as many people as you can.
And see if we can get a chain going around the world that will make people
understand that drinking and driving don't mix.
TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE, so please forward this letter.

> -----------------------------------------

                       DEATH OF INNOCENT

I went to a party, Mom, I remembered what you said.
You told me not to drink, Mom, so I drank soda instead.
I really felt proud inside, Mom, the way you said I would.
I didn't drink and drive, Mom, even though the others said I should.

I know I did the right thing, Mom, I know you are always right.
Now the party is finally ending, Mom, as everyone is driving out of
sight.
As I got into my car, Mom, I knew I'd get home in one piece.
Because of the way you raised me, so responsible and sweet.

I started to drive away, Mom, but as I pulled out into the road,
the other car didn't see me, Mom, and hit me like a load.
As I lay there on the pavement, Mom, I hear the policeman say,
the other guy is drunk, Mom, and now I'm the one who will pay.

I'm lying here dying, Mom. I wish you'd get here soon.
How could this happen to me, Mom? My life just burst like a balloon.
There is blood all around me, Mom, and most of it is mine.
I hear the medic say, Mom, I'll die in short time.

I just wanted to tell you, Mom, I swear i didn't drink.
It was the others, Mom. The others didn't think.
He was probably at the same party as I.
The only difference is, he drank and I will die.

Why do people drink, Mom? It can ruin your whole life.
I'm feeling sharp pains now. Pains just like a knife.
The guy who hit me is walking, Mom, and I don't think it's fair.
I'm lying here dying and all he can do is stare.

Tell my brother not to cry, Mom. Tell Daddy to be brave.
And when I go to heaven, Mom, put "Daddy's Girl" on my grave.
Someone should have told him, Mom, not to drink and drive.
If only they had told him, Mom, I would still be alive.

My breath is getting shorter, Mom. I'm becoming very scared.
Please don't cry for me, Mom. When I needed you, you were always there.
I have one last question, Mom, before I say good bye:
I didn't drink and drive, so why am I the one to die?

_______________________________________
+ - Re: Habsburgs' intentions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>All those Russian language classes that the commies of the 50s Romania
>forced on us (Russian was compulsory from grade 4 on) were completely
>wasted on me.
>
>However..... :-[
>
>krasivoi/vaia - beautiful
>krasnoi/naia - red
>
>Oh, damn..... they got to me... it must have been subliminal...
>
>:-) Bandi
>.

krasnoi/naia means also beatufil (see Krasnaja plosag - Red Square, but also
means Beautiful Square)

L. Monoki

******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************

We are born naked, wet and hungry.  Then things get worse.

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