Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 564
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-01-29
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Good vs. better (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Good vs. better (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Horn - Soros Meeting (mind)  161 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Horn - Soros Meeting (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: A few comments on feminism (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Feminism East & West (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
7 The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: A few comments on feminism (mind)  161 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: News Items from Abroad re: International Relations (mind)  102 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Feminism in Hungary/general (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
15 Questions about Hungary (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: To Joe about PC. (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
17 Anyone know Victoria Tamas? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
18 WWI (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: To Joe about PC. (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: To Joe about PC. (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Good vs. better (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [Canada]
> If you were/are married, would/do you treat your partner ass hired help?
I am. I don't.

> Hmmm.  Maybe capitalism isn't that bad after all.  But I'm a bit shy about
> selling myself.  You seem to have more experience in this area.  Maybe you
> can give me some helpful hints.
Post ads in adult mags, I would think. And hey, if you would do it for
pleasure, what's wrong with earning some money at the same time?

> They can seek professional help if they can't handle a multi-dimentional
> person.
As a prophet you need followers. If they find your hedonism off-putting,
they are more likely to look for other prophets than to change their ways.
Similarly, your partners in hedonism (and their number is likely to grow,
what with all that advertising) might find the messianic streak a turnoff
(it really does not mix well with the bottom role, what can I tell you) and
might simply look for other partners, rather than seeking professional
help. Besides, such people just don't want to be cured!

> Now you're confusing me, Andras.  That's a quote I should be throwing at you.
Well if you can't handle a multi-dimensional person...

> >The internet is a big thing. Our debate is a little thing -- don't
> >mistake one for the other.
> The size queen in me wouldn't allow it!
:-) :-)

> And what point would that be?  Are you really in favor of tax-and-spend?
The point is roughly where it's in the US or England -- the northern part
of the EU (and unfortunately, Hungary) tax (and spend) way too much. But
I'm opposed to cut taxes (and spending) from the current US level.

> you are, you should express yourself more boldly.  I'm getting to know a lot
> of people on this list, but I wouldn't have pegged you as a tax-and-spender.

Well, my previous sentence would peg me as such for all good Republicans on
the list. And if they knew I'm in favor of drastically cutting military
spending, with the money redirected to social engineering (primarily to
education) rather than handed back as tax cuts... I'm also in favor of
eliminating the mortgage tax deduction (though I personally happen to
benefit from it) and the $4/gallon gasoline. Where does that put me?
In the category of the totally, absolutely, and terminally unelectable,
were I crazy enough to run for office.

> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Re: A few comments on feminism ( 138 sor )
>
> Here our difference is in epistemology.  How can one KNOW the conditions
> of the market.  I suggest you read FA Hayek's "Economics and Knowledge"
Hear, hear! Just as a matter of clarification, I never said equal pay for
equal `worth' is wrong, I said equal pay for equal _work_ is wrong.  Equal
pay for equal `worth' is right by definition, since nobody can measure
`worth' any better than from the market price. The labor theory of value
sucks, that's for sure. (Before Eva Durant attacks me for this sacrilegious
statement I urge her to read the little fable about Pe1ter e1s Pa1l
(tudjuk, nya1rban) that I posted on FALI #12 back in 1990.)

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Good vs. better (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [United Kingdom]
> You might as well classify these more important goals, please.
> I wonder if proper - not only the present nominal - democracy
> is included.  I doubt it, as  it is as incompatible with market
> economy, as social justice.
Number one is social justice. Justice is not the same as equality, in
fact equality is often accomplished (particularly under socialism) at
great injustice. As for democracy, the darn thing seems to positively
require a market economy to take root.

> My impression was, that in the prehistoric tribal society
> matriarchy was the general setup.
This, known in Marxist parlance as "o3skommunizmus", is pure hogwash.
Very few tribal societies show matriarchy, and only under very
peculiar conditions. What tribal societies show in abundance is
jelaously guarded private property, many forms of barter (including
the barter of women, I'm afraid to say) and even the emergence of
money. Marx can perhaps be forgiven for selective reading of the
evidence in an age when solid anthropological information was hard to
come by. But for you to repeat it unquestioningly 150 years later is
not right.

> When private property appeared, the inheritors of it had to be
> identified, also men had bigger role in gaining it through fighting.
> Private property is the main reason,
So what is it with the great apes, do they also have property?

> attitudes of thousands of years built on societies based on private
> property are the others.
Without respect for property rights there can't be a general respect
for the rights of the individual. Such societes (if the name "society"
is merited by places where the stronger gang takes whatever it pleases
from those weaker) guarantee that women's rights (which I actually
don't see as any different from men's rights) will not be respected.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Horn - Soros Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

While we are waiting for Cecila's latest news about the 60 prominent
ex-Hungarians who will tell Horn how to fix the Hungarian economy, here
are some excerpts from the _Canadian Business_ magazin article about a few
Hungarain-Canadians who are trying to help:

    Double agent: Canadian firms went to Hungary thinking it would be a
    door to the enormous potential markets of Eastern Europe --
    Canadian Businees, v68 n1 (January, 1995) : p37-40

FRANK HASENFRATZ finds himself in an enviable but ironic situation. For
starters, the CEO of Guelph, Ont.'s Linamar Corp., a refugee from Hungary
who fought against Soviet rule in 1956, has reentered the business life of
his native country through the purchase of the farm machinery manufacturer
Mezogep Inc., a company founded by the former Communist government.  In the
1980s state - owned Mezogep improved upon a German patented component for
combines called a "cornhead." Linamar, which had been importing the
cornhead into Canada since 1989, bought the Hungarian company three years
later.

The second irony is that, three years after its purchase, this subsidiary
in Hungary, a country notorious for its unproductive labor market, has
become one of Hasenfratz's most effective plants, turning a profit of more
than US$3 million last year.  Mezogep's two divisions and 560 employees,
Hasenfratz reports, regularly reach efficiency levels of 80% to 90%.

The biggest irony may be that Hasenfratz whipped Mezogep's work force into
shape by defying convention.  While many foreign manufacturers in Eastern
Europe take full advantage of the cheap Hungarian labor rate -- as little
as one - sixth the rates of most Western European countries -- Hasenfratz
took the opposite approach.  Guiding his decision was the belief that
exploiting Hungary for its cheap labor is a mistake. "Low wages are not the
reason to manufacture there," he says, "because, sooner or later, the wages
will go up."

Instead Hasenfratz put a plan in place to guarantee product quality to
Mezogep's predominantly Western customers.  "The Hungarian work force is
extremely good if the management is good," he says.  "The most important
thing is to pick the right men for the top, and treat them accordingly.
Honest, hard - working managers will surround themselves with the same type
of people.  But they have to be adequately compensated." When Linamar
purchased Mezogep in January, 1992, it cut a deal with the new management:
if certain manufacturing goals were met, ownership and profits would be
shared. (Hasenfratz will not disclose the details of the compensation
package.) After three years, results have outstripped expectations.
Mezogep has expanded its production base to include an automotive division
that makes vacuum pumps for the international car market.

In its handling of Mezogep, Linamar has dispelled myths about the new
entrepreneurial frontier of Eastern Europe.  For one, manufacturers need
not utilize cheap labor to turn a profit.  Secondly, by shipping to Western
markets, Linamar has shown that Hungary is a viable manufacturing base for
Western Europe.

This is just what the new Hungarian leaders had in mind when, after the
demise of Communist rule in 1989, they launched an ambitious reform program
to entice foreign investment.  And some of that investment has been
Canadian.  Big companies here include Ontario Hydro, Sooter's and the law
firm Stikeman Elliott.  But these are exceptions, says Richard Lecoq,
commercial counselor with the Canadian Embassy in Budapest: "Most
[Canadian] ventures here are not large." The majority -- there are more
than 100 by the embassy's count -- are small, jointly owned businesses. So
why is Canadian small business so interested in Hungary?

For the answer, go to any social function hosted by the Canadian Chamber of
Commerce in Hungary, walk to the centre of the room and listen.  It's not
unusual to hear Hungarian spill from the mouths of these Canadians almost
as readily as English or French.  Many are first - , second - or third -
generation members of Canada's 100,000 - strong Hungarian ethnic community.
They speak the rare and exotic Hungarian language; they understand the
local ways.  If you ask, these Canadian - Hungarian entrepreneurs will tell
you they are passionate about business.  They are also passionate about
Hungary's future.  "I do want to make money," says Canadian Alex Pocsai,
the son of Hungarian immigrants.  "But I do care about this country."

Hungarians," says Hungarian - born Toronto financier Andrew Sarlos, " are
extremely entrepreneurial." Proof of this is evident on the city streets.
Eight or nine years ago, basic Western consumer goods were nonexistent
here.  Today Budapest's fashionable Vaci Street, a short stroll from the
Danube, could be mistaken for sections of Toronto's trendy Yorkville.
Furs, designer clothes and brand names associated with Western ostentation
-- Clinique, Rolex -- grace shop windows.  The streets are rife with Audis,
BMWs and Porsches.  Drivers can be seen at stoplights conferring on Westel
and Pannon cellular phones. "There are a whole bunch of people making money
here," says Canadian businessman ARPAD ABONYI, co - owner of Budapest's
NewAge Holdings Ltd.  "Ten percent to 15% of Budapest residents are members
of an entrepreneurial class that is rich by Toronto standards."

[...]

Scores of Canadian businesses from a variety of sectors agree.  ATCO Europe
Kft., a subsidiary of the Calgary - based maker of construction housing
units, has been manufacturing in Budapest since May, 1993.  ATCO ships its
wares east to the republics of the former USSR, serving Western companies
contracted to harvest mineral and oil resources there.  In the media
sector, Transatlantic Media Associates, co - owned by Canadian film
producer JOHN KEMENY, provides film crews, equipment, studio space and
technical supportfor Canadian, US and Western European movies shot on
location in Hungary, where production costs can be up to 35% less than in
Western Europe.

[.....]

Some of the other problems traditionally associated with Eastern European
economies have required a little more ingenuity.  When the Hungarian
subsidiary of Burlington, Ont. - based Zenon Environmental Inc. [CEO:
ANDREW BENEDEK] attempted to sell a water filtration system to a dairy in
then - Czechoslovakia in 1992, the buyer admitted it had no money.  It did
have a lot of milk to make cheese.  An arrangement was made: goat cheese
was shipped to a Hungarian buyer and the buyer paid Zenon's subsidiary
directly.  In the end, the dairy got state - of - the - art environmental
technology; Zenon got money; somebody else got cheese. Zenon's experience
reveals two things about the Eastern European marketplace: flexibility pays
-- and milk often flows more freely than cash.

[.....]

SARLOS, a "so - called freedom fighter" (his description) during Hungary's
unsuccessful uprising against the Soviets in 1956, escaped to Canada, via
Austria, at the age of 25.  In the decades that followed he built a
reputation -- and several fortunes -- in Canadian finance.  When the Berlin
Wall fell in 1989, Sarlos returned to the East.  That year, along with
Soros, he raised US$80 million and founded the First Hungary Fund -- a
venture capital fund that is fueling some of Hungary's most viable
enterprises. Today the fund has increased its capital to US$130 million
and, according to the Budapest Business Journal, is ranked tenth among
Hungary's foreign investors. At Sarlos's urging, the fund has been
instrumental in supporting cash - starved Hungarian talent, such as the
award - winning animator and cartoonist Csaba Varga.  "He couldn't even get
a loan to buy drafting equipment or paper or anything to carry out his
business," Sarlos says. "So we have provided him with working capital.
Now he is one of the most successful cartoonists in Hungary."

Boosted by US$1.5 million from the First Hungary Fund, the Varga studio
has, among other international projects, animated the rap video "Do the
Bartman," which is based on the Fox network series the Simpsons. Other
First Hungary Fund investments include a US$7 - million stake in the
pharmaceutical company Biorex Research & Development Ltd., which is
developing a drug that treats the side effects of diabetes. The fund also
has entered into a joint venture with the Hungarian firm Ikarus Vehicle
Manufacturing Ltd. to sell metropolitan transport buses in North America.
Hundary's Ikarus buses carry commuters in Ottawa and Toronto, and orders
have been received from transit authorities in Miami and Washington, DC.
Sarlos also has become one of Hungary's first media moguls.  He owns a
portion of TV3 - Budapest, a newly launched commercial television station
to which he brought badly needed foreign funding.  He also has been
instrumental in the programming of TV3 - Budapest -- helping to arrange for
movies, dramas and television series from the distribution wing of
Toronto's Alliance Communications Corp. As part of the deal, Alliance --
headed by Robert Lantos, another Hungarian emigre -- will shortly acruire
50% of Sarlos's shares in the station. Another of Sarlos's deals -- which
he says will cost US$100 million and has been financed "with great
difficult" -- is an office building under construction in Budapest's
central Lierty Square. Located next to the National Bank of Hungary, this
10 - story, 538,000 - sq. - ft. business centre will be one of the largest
structures of its kind in central Europe.  When the building is completed
in September, part of it apparently will be occupied by the National Savins
Bank, the OTP.

---- end of quotes from the article -----

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Horn - Soros Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:54 28/01/96 -0500, Barna Bozoke wrote:
>While we are waiting for Cecila's latest news about the 60 prominent
>ex-Hungarians who will tell Horn how to fix the Hungarian economy, here
>are some excerpts from the _Canadian Business_ magazin article about a few
>Hungarain-Canadians who are trying to help:
>
>    Double agent: Canadian firms went to Hungary thinking it would be a
>    door to the enormous potential markets of Eastern Europe --
>    Canadian Businees, v68 n1 (January, 1995) : p37-40
...
>
>SARLOS, a "so - called freedom fighter" (his description) during Hungary's
>unsuccessful uprising against the Soviets in 1956, escaped to Canada, via
>Austria, at the age of 25.  In the decades that followed he built a
>reputation -- and several fortunes -- in Canadian finance.  When the Berlin
>Wall fell in 1989, Sarlos returned to the East.  That year, along with
>Soros, he raised US$80 million and founded the First Hungary Fund -- a
>venture capital fund that is fueling some of Hungary's most viable
>enterprises. Today the fund has increased its capital to US$130 million
>and, according to the Budapest Business Journal, is ranked tenth among
>Hungary's foreign investors. At Sarlos's urging, the fund has been
>instrumental in supporting cash - starved Hungarian talent, such as the
>award - winning animator and cartoonist Csaba Varga.  "He couldn't even get
>a loan to buy drafting equipment or paper or anything to carry out his
>business," Sarlos says. "So we have provided him with working capital.
>Now he is one of the most successful cartoonists in Hungary."
>
[etc.]

Dear Mr. Bozoki -

Thank you for the article and the information. I believe it is the First
Hungary Fund that I was thinking of when I referred in my earlier message to
the consortium founded by the three businessmen to foster investment in
Hungary. I would also presume that if a small investor wanted to invest, say
$100.00/mo. into development of Hungarian enterprises, that he or she would
be able to do this through the First Hungary Fund. Although there are
restrictions on one's ability in Canada to invest in foreign funds which
would otherwise qualify for the RRSP deduction (equivalent to the IRA in the
U.S.), at least a percentage of the money invested in the First Hungary Fund
should be eligible for the deduction. I believe one is allowed to invest 10%
of one's total RRSP contributions in a fund located abroad. Canadians should
contact their local offices of Revenue Canada or their investment counselors
or accountants if they want to verify the latest rules and regulations
governing such investments.

By the way, we still haven't found out the details of the meeting between
Horn, Soros, Lantos, and Sarlos, and I would be interested in seeing any
information anyone might have at the present time in regard to this very
interesting meeting.

Igen sz=E9pen k=F6sz=F6n=F6m!

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - =20
+ - Re: A few comments on feminism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Cecelia, thank for pointing out the example you did, but I rally hate to
think that as you characterized it, that the bottom line and cost of
litigation is all that keeps some companies from discriminating at all.

Darren
+ - Re: Feminism East & West (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:58 PM 1/27/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Feminism didn't develop in Eastern
>Europe not because it is alien to the East-European psyche--as our Observer
>would like us to believe--but because civic society, grass-root movements,
>individual initiatives, formation of associations and societies were
>stifled during existing socialism. Five or six years after 1989-90 we see
>literally hundreds of associations--from local chapters of anti-abortionist
>activists to anti-smoking groups, springing up and flourishing.

Eva Balogh and I should savour those rare moments when we agree on something
because we sure can't seem to agree on the usage of words like socialism.

In my opinion, it was not socialism that stopped, or hindered, the
development of feminism in Hungary.  It was a small group of paranoid
political power brokers that stopped it's spread.  Ironically, because
feminism addresses issues of gender equality, it became a threat to those
who espoused equality.  The refrain in totalitarian societies, which
masqueraded as socialist states, was always the Orwellian, "all animals are
equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

>In my opinion it is inevitable that the ideas of feminism--that is, the
>idea of choice and equal opportunity in all walks of life--will take hold
>in the former socialist countries.

And in my opinion, it is inevitable that the ideas of socialism -- that is,
the idea of choice and equal opportunity in all walks of life -- will take
hold in the former 'socialist' countries.

Joe Szalai
+ - The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What started out as, 'Anti-feminist bias or not?', quickly 'evolved' into
vigorous causerie.

The issue in this debate is not who will win or who will lose.  The real
issue is, 'how long can it go on?'

One of the nastiest legacies of the Soviet empire is that it made people
unable to think clearly or rationally.  What we see in this current debate
is, two people discussing the merits and pitfalls of, two varieties of
economic theories, and two varieties of political systems.  The result?
Endless debate.  And why?  Because the two opponents always confuse
political and economic theory.

Stowe hates socialism/communism (which is an economic system), because he
thinks it is, or will lead to, or is unatainable without, totalitarianism
(which is a political system).

Durant, because she is in favour of social programmes, and a more equal
distribution of wealth, is seen by some to be advocating totalitarianism.

Interestingly, I've never seen anything written by Stowe which is
anti-socialist, if socialism is used in it's proper economic sense.
Conversely, I've not seen anything written by Durant in which she supports
totalitarianism.

The debate continues.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: A few comments on feminism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:18 PM 1/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Cecelia, thank for pointing out the example you did, but I rally hate to
>think that as you characterized it, that the bottom line and cost of
>litigation is all that keeps some companies from discriminating at all.
>
>Darren
>
I agree, but having literally sat in on meetings with the head of the
Personnel Department for a large county in a usually "liberal" state, and
listened to him explain exactly this sentiment--and that it was indeed being
practiced by that county (he also put it in writing at State Human Rights
Commission hearings investigating his widespread discrimination), and heard
it expressed by top officials of several private companies as well, in two
states, I'm very, very sorry to say that, yes, unfortunately some executives
really do use that as the primary consideration.

Fortunately, the county directors of that time are no longer there.  What
finally happened is several of us, upon reaching a consensus that we were
making only minimal progress by trying to work from inside the system, all
left County employment, and assisted the candidate running against the
personnel department directors' principal backer--the chairman of the county
commissioners whom would you believe was a woman, officially listed as a
Democrat, yet whom had maneuvered herself into the chairmanship by cutting
deals with the three Republican members of the commission.  We buried her at
the county caucus before the primary.  Within a year afterward, the director
of the personnel department was replace, and another couple of years we
nailed his assistant (who was usually the real departmental evil genius).

The real problem is that when very human people think they have a lot more
power and money than anyone else, and they enjoy it for years and years,
they get sloppy and arrogant.  They begin to think they can do anything--and
get away with anything, and not have to worry about the morality or
accountability.  They figure that most people ought to have seen previous
indications of their values and weaknesses and if they didn't agree with
them, or at least feel tolerant of them, they should have used the numerous
opportunities that are generally available, even if not always widely known,
to either check the behaviors, or remove the miscreants from positions where
they can be indulged.  It works the same way with nations, and national
governments and parts of national governments too, who are after all merely
aggregates of people.  Nobody's perfect and even the best can and do make a
doozy of a stupid judgement--and even follow through in a disastrous action
of implementation, from time to time.  The best we can do is all of us learn
to admit it when we have screwed up and try to prevent it from happening again.

 Rather like the U.S. as a whole on the issues of Japanese American
internment, abuse and genocide of Native Americans and slavery, segregation
and discrimination against Blacks, women, etc..  We're still not perfect but
we've voluntarily--it didn't take someone else's occupying army, for
instance, made great strides in recognition of these serious wrongs that
large numbers of our population were responsible for perpetrating them, and
that to change these things we had to make very public, international
confessions and make sweeping changes for stopping them and re-educating our
people at every level of society.  Wouldn't it be nice if _all_ the nations
of the world, especially all those who are--or have been great powers would
do the same?  None is actually any more perfect in its treatment of
"differing peoples"--even within itself, though some might be prejudicially
believed to be.  However, some are better at admitting the fact and trying
to really do something about it, than others.  And as Santayana pointed out,
unless you recognize the past and present for what it truly is--including in
individual behavior, and change it, one is--and all are--likely to repeat it
again.

Truth is sometimes a bitter fruit, that even looks really funny at first
glance, or even close up, but it doesn't mean it isn't actually healthful.
Really good lies and deceit, however, generally look great--after all wasn't
Lucifer the "shining angel" and wasn't he called even after the "fall" the
great deceiver, even by Christ.  How else can you deceive someone if you
don't present a charming, credible appearance in order to first get close,
and have the victim believe in your credibility?  Do we believe people who
present the obvious appearance of thugs--in our personal presence?  (After
all, like some of the current Chinese dictators, they might actually do some
terribly barbaric things, but we don't actually see them doing it, so we
don't have to believe they do, if we don't want to.  I guess for some
people, a nasty person to be believed as such has either to blow someone's
brains out, hang him/her, or drive a tank over him/her right there at a
cocktail party in front of the inclined to be disbeliever.)

You know, the more often I work with some of my friend Laszlo's really nice,
charming (I really like them personally, sometimes) English, French, and
Mexican friends, the more I'm inclined to agree with much of their basic
philosophy.  People deserve to be "rewarded" by and according to whatever
and whomever they choose to believe.

My biggest mistake?  I believed, trusted and worked for in very key and
influential ways the election of Bill Clinton in 1992 and probably was a key
influence on the "last month change" of votes in at least 5 states.  I feel
personally responsible for much of what has happened in Bosnia since, even
though as soon as it became apparent Bill was going to renege on his
promises to key groups, I worked diligently to bring information and logical
arguments from a variety of sources to rationally and kindly persuade him to
reconsider.  It doesn't matter, there are still at least 30,000 innocent
people now dead since then.  What makes it even worse is I am mildly
acquainted with Bill Clinton, and have numerous relatives in Arkansas.  One
of them is even a State Police officer.  My family had mixed feelings about
Clinton and were very discreet in what they said--and never, never publicly,
and very gentlemanly and ladylike.  You won't find Dillon Dollar (my State
patrol cousin--and yes, that is his real name) in the newspapers or part of
some ridiculous lawsuit.  He was loyal and proper and took care to keep well
away from Little Rock.  The family didn't completely trust Bill Clinton, but
didn't feel it proper to give many specifics, and they generally thought he
was Ok for governor.  I figured it must have been relatively minor stuff.
After all these were very close cousins of mine, and if it was really major,
I expected at least one of them would be more forthcoming.  I deliberately,
rationally chose what I considered the lesser of two evils, and then did not
just vote for him, but actively, worked, often in very major ways to help
get him elected.

Here you go, Doug and Dan. This last paragraph's really for you, too, and I
can't be funny about that situation, no matter how much I'd like to be.  If
you can see a funny side of it, please let me know.  But yes, some of those
built up connections over 25 years have allowed me to communicate with a lot
more folks at higher levels in DC than many people.  Sorry, if it offends
you guys, but they really are human beings there that believe, say and
sometimes even do stupid things even if they dwell in Olympian marble
halls--just like the executives in the rosewood-panelled offices with 6' and
8' long solid cherrywood desks...

By the way, one of my own few "indulgences" in life was a nearly 5' long
solid cherrywood desk that has yet to be in a study/office to do it justice.
At the moment it is both hard to see amid all the 4-8" deep piles of files
on it, and crammed next to a wall in a room in which every other wall is
either filled with floor to ceiling bookcases--overfilled with books stuffed
sideways on top of books in the normal vertical position, and file cabinets
and file boxes--all full and topped by more inches of stacks of files, boxes
of paper, etc. (the photocopier/paper cabinet is overstuffed, too), or
stuffed with a five foot stack of computer, printer and photocopier hard and
soft wares.  There are more files and bookcases in the garage, and bookcases
in the living room, and both bedroom suites (in one there is yet another
large file cabinet).

Organization is not really great.  It all started out well organized, but
when it got to the point that to put in one or two odd-sized new books in a
single shelf of that subject category meant rearranging three bookcases, at
least, things began getting just stuffed in wherever I could find any empty
space at all.  Ditto the files.

The real capper is that this truly beautiful desk is also in the direct path
of my fastest--and sometimes klutziest--cat on his way to his favorite
window--which has a large outdoor shelf and is sometimes visited by other
neighborhood cats--both friends and not.  They come at all hours, so it's
rather an unpredictable situation, with the usual results.  That's how my
entire card-file _drawer_ ended up in a blizzard one day, not too long
ago...More than 1,000 cards in four separate containers, etc.--and mixed up
with other small items... (This wasn't the first time, either...)   Oh yes,
and the computer hard-drive is overstuffed, too, although my husband's
engineering and other company programs are part of that.  We're now waiting
for a 2 gig hard-drive? (I think that's what he said he ordered) to
arrive...  No, neither the study--nor any other room, will currently fit a
Cray--next house!

Thanks friends, for reading.  Now go and enoy the Superbowl and root for the
Steelers--some good East Central Europeans on that team!

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA  95148





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Re: The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:23 PM 1/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>What started out as, 'Anti-feminist bias or not?', quickly 'evolved' into
>vigorous causerie.
>
>The issue in this debate is not who will win or who will lose.  The real
>issue is, 'how long can it go on?'
>
>One of the nastiest legacies of the Soviet empire is that it made people
>unable to think clearly or rationally.  What we see in this current debate
>is, two people discussing the merits and pitfalls of, two varieties of
>economic theories, and two varieties of political systems.  The result?
>Endless debate.  And why?  Because the two opponents always confuse
>political and economic theory.
>

Hmmmm... Just a no-doubt Lucifer inspired thought, but do you think part of
the problem could be that too many are just discussing and basing their
expressions on _theories_ and not either scientifically proven and
repeatable experimentation or consistent and frequent observation of realities?

How do theories get started anyway?  Don't they start out from some one's
personal beliefs and questions that he or she is still seeking to prove or
disprove?  Aren't the hypotheses often set based upon desires and
expectations and the selections of either experiments or situations to
observe made based upon the desires and expectations?

(Save this one for answering on a night when the weather is too lousy to go
out, you've read everything in your house, and everything on television is a
repeat of a repeat, and at least half of it never should have been produced
in the first place.)

Have fun!

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA  95148




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Re: News Items from Abroad re: International Relations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Celia quoting the Independant;
>
>"Europe's Utter Failure"
>"They were so much like us, both the victims and the killer, good Europeans
>one and all.  The widows of Srebrenica could have easily been our mothers or
>grandmothers.  The aggressors were like us too,: professors of Shakespeare,
>practicing psychoanalysts, liars who were adept at telling us whatever we
>wanted to hear.  This was "our" war in an especially intimate and
>uncomfortable way.
>
>        We could have stopped it.  Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic
>admits as much.  The dispatch of 20,000 NATO troops to guarantee the
>integrity of Bosnia would have stopped the Serb succession--if they had been
>sent in January, 1992.
>

>        Some will argue that the failure in Yugoslavia makes the case even
>stronger for  a united Europe, but it is hard to see whay anyone should
>believe in a united Europe, if its already formidable institutions proved
>unable to stop ethnic cleansing two hours by air from Brussels.
>
>        So the peace that has been dictated has not been initialed in
>Geneva, but at an American airbase in Ohio.  This is so much an American
>show that they do not even make a pretense of keeping European capitals
>informed.  Europe remains as beholden to American power as it was in 1941,
>when Churchill called on the New World to redress the balance of the old.
>Bosnia offered Europe the chance to end its 50 year dependence on the
>Americans.  The best chance that Europe has had since 1945 to  stand on its
>own two feet has been thrown away."
>
>Michael Ignatieff,
>"The Independent" (centrist)
>London, England
>November 22, 1995

>Couldn't help but notice the use of the term "balance of the old," and that
>this writer kept tying the world order of World War II England to the
>Bosnian situation.  How shocking, he even did it in the SAME PARAGRAPH.
>Why, someone could interpret this to imply that the intended order of the
>world held by some English leaders, and other European leaders hasn't
>changed very much since before World War II and possibly longer!  How
>terrible!  What a demonstration of very tricky, "subtle screed."  Right, Dan
>and Doug?

>Sincerely,
>
>
>Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
>San Jose, CA, USA


Celia,

        Using the author's slender thread "balance of old"  you go off and
build quite an argument to dangle thereby.  Perhaps you've forgotten  how
far the English "balance of old got them in either of the world wars.
Churchill's entire statement as appearing in the article stated something
about changing the balance of old after all.

        What it instead seems to indicate is a realization on the part of
the author, who in reality Celia, speaks only for himself, that the
British, instead of using their influence, have consistently blinked when
approaching the brink of European entanglement in this century.
Chamberlain's "peace in our time" stands as the seminal example.

        Regarding the Bosnian issue, the British (not to mention the entire
UN) kind of had a tiger by the tail in that one.  At least they sent troops
in with the UN contingent.  Remember that this was a UN operation after
all, and for quite some time they had the spectre of Russian intervention
to consider.  Also, Balkan terrain being what it is and the vivid memory of
the German's problems in Yogoslavia during WWII fresh in everyone's mind,
it's not hard to see why most European countries were somewhat squeemish
about jumping in with both feet.

        While it may seem cliche (although the Russian's failure to learn
that lesson in Afganistan makes it less so) nobody in Europe or elsewhere
can afford to entangle themselves in another Vietnam.  Twenty thousand
troops,  the author says, would have made the difference.  It seems Lyndon
Johnson also made that mistake.  Tito's strict regime kept the lid on the
pot for several decades, only to see it come to a boil again when
Yugoslavia split up.  Once Nato pulls out we will see if their presence had
any lasting effect.  Only then will we be able to judge the European's and
more to your point, the English.

>        By early 1992, the European public had seen what Serbian artillery
>could do to European cities such as Vukovar and Dubrovnik.  It didn't
>require Churchillian powers of rhetoric to persuade the British public that
>some lives might be well spent defending the integrity of a European state;
>that however complex thiese identifications might be, these wer "our people
>and had a claim to our protection.  There was a public waiting to be
>mobilized in  defense of Europe itself, and that public waited in vain for
>its call.
>

Change the date to 1939 and the word "Serbian" to German.  Like the old
saying goes, "He who refuses to learn from history........"

Regards,


Doug Hormann

+ - Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Darren Purcell wrote:

>George Antony wrote:
>> Then there is that traditional range of postgraduate QUALIFICATIONS.  In
>> Hungary, there have been three doctoral qualifications: the 'small' or
>> university-level doctor, the 'candidate' and the 'doctor of sciences'.  The
>> latter two used to be awarded by the Academy of Sciences, while first used t
o
>> be the domain of individual universities. For the university doctoral degree
,
>> a thesis of around 30,000 words was required, pretty well like a thesis-only
>> Masters in the English tradition.  Requirements for the candidate and doctor
>> of sciences were longer theses, language exams and documented scientific
>> achievement. The UK/US/Australia/etc. PhD is closest to the Candidate Degree
.
>> While this system was an exact copy of the Soviet one, I understand that the
>> German regime is also different from that of Anglo-Celtic countries.

> George Antony cites the above as the Hungarian system today.

Not at all.  With two Hungarian friends pursuing doctoral degrees, I am well
aware that the system is changing, but that nobody knows where it is heading.
I was hoping that my use of past tense would sufficiently indicate, even
without formal caveats, that I was referring to the past.  Wrong again.

> As of 1995, there is a new setup, one that makes me see red though.
> Doctorates are being given in Hungary now, granting a Ph.D in only 1.-2
> years after the completion of the diplom. Albeit, everyone claims that
> the first un9versity degree is equivalent to teh masters in the US, I
> have seen what geography students have to learn and I am quite sorry,
> that ain't a Ph.D from any top 20 geography school in the US, or I'll
> wager Britain, Australia, or Ireland, Germany, etc.

This is my impression also.  It looks like that old 'university doctorate'
is being rechristened as Ph.D., and this will not improve the recognition
of Hungarian qualifications.  The latter is rather unflattering at the
moment, with authoritative international comparisons equating Hungarian
5-year university degrees (complete with dissertation and defence thereof
plus a 'state examination' by a panel) with 3-year courses in developed
English-speaking countries.  This is just as unfair as is ridiculous the
claim of a Ph.D. by holders of Hungarian 'university doctorates'.

As for the Hungarian first degrees being equivalent to a Masters, well,
sometimes that may well be, but then it is a coursework-only Masters.
Of the latter, there are a few offered by universities in English-speaking
countries of the West, and some of these are a one-year course.  Given that
the Hungarian five-year 'diplomaed' (approx. = 'certified') agricultural
science courses contain all the trappings of a thorough UK/Australian Honours
degree, plus an extra year of coursework and additional examination by
outsiders, this is not unreasonable.

> Of course, part of this is related to standardizatio with 'western'
> systmes of education so that some leverl of comparability is there.
> However, I have read a couple of the 'dissertations' and they are not
> quite theoretical enough to pass a Ph.D exam here. I am not saying this
> is not a bad idea, but it still needs a little work.

Well, being 'theoretical' is not a precondition in Australian technical
fields at least.  The requirement is to offer something new in theory or
application.

George Antony
+ - Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:38 AM 1/29/96 +1000, George Antony wrote, comment on Durrell's writing:

>I
>> have seen what geography students have to learn and I am quite sorry,
>> that ain't a Ph.D from any top 20 geography school in the US, or I'll
>> wager Britain, Australia, or Ireland, Germany, etc.
>
>This is my impression also.  It looks like that old 'university doctorate'
>is being rechristened as Ph.D., and this will not improve the recognition
>of Hungarian qualifications.

That worries me also, partly because of the Hungarian mania for titles. I
mentioned this possibility on the Szalon a few weeks ago but there I was
told that the Hungarian Ph.D. is a solid three-year course and not too many
people will end up doing it. It is also unlikely--my informant said--that it
would be cheapened. On the other hand, I know some people who decided to
work on their Ph.D. in order to earn a little more money (18,000 Ft
stipend), and, more importantly, to keep their student status which carries
all sorts of benefits. For example, cheap tickets on streetcars, busses, and
trains.

Eva Balogh
Eva Balogh >
+ - Re: Feminism in Hungary/general (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant > wrote:
>>
>> Also partially as a result of my observations of the government here in
>> Canada and the United States, I have a rather jaundiced view that when the
>> government tries to solve a perceived problem by means of sweeping
>> government legislation, the end result are new injustices which cry out for
>> new solutions and so on and so on.  It is part of the law of unintended
>> consequences.  Despite the best of intentions, the measures instituted by
>> government often have unexpected results and give rise to new opportunities
>> for abuse.
>>
>I agree, burocratic shortcuts, such as enforced positive discrimi-
>nation doesn't achieve anything but turns people against the ideas
>advocated,especially if there is no supporting framework of
>education and funds.
>
>> I can't speak for other women, but I have been fortunate to find a husband
>> who is extremely supportive of me and is very unthreatened by my success.
>> This liberated attitude seems to be more common among Canadian men than
>> among the average American male (and the average Hungarian?).  One lady
>> commented that I missed the point which was that it should not be women who
>> have to make the choice between job and child-rearing.  I find that the
>> average Canadian male is much more likely to be ready to share housekeeping
>> and child-rearing duties, and I am sure in my case (no kids, just four dogs)
>> my husband does almost half of the housework.  I would say that there are
>> things the government can do to facilitate child-rearing, such as providing
>> opportunities for both parents to take parental leave. A real problem,
>> though is the impact on the employer. I as a sole professional cannot afford
>> to pay my secretary to take six months maternity leave and pay to employ
>> another secretary at the same time, even though I might personally wish to
>> do it.
>>
>Aha, you are blaming the system!!! And there is every reason to!
>
>I wonder if you share the responsibilities
>of home or just the chores?   This is the real difference.
>The problem is if it is still the woman who has to think of
>the tiring details.  It is as soul-wracking to ask someone to do
>the dishes, than doing them. The real "sharing" is if the other person
>does tasks without being reminded.   Women are blamed, that they
>think of trivial and boring detais, but they are forced to; if
>they don't - nobody else will. Thus they have less capacity left
>to think of the creative and uplifting thoughts... but we'll
>get there - eventually.
>Eva Durant
+ - Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Mrs. Fa'bos-Becker:
Thanks for taking the time, as usual, to provide a detailed response to my
post. I wish you had taken a little more time to address the specific
concerns I raised. I have also read many of the authors you mentioned.
Even a cursory reading of the relevant works of Hackett Fischer will not
support your contention that there is somehow a cultural split between
Southerners of Celtic descent and Southerners of Anglo-Saxon descent.

Nor does Barbara Tuchmann's scholarship on the origins of American
involvement in the First World War conclude that the U.S. was drawn into
the war by British machinations. (Thanks to the Hungary reader who wrote
to remind me of the impact that Germany's resumption of unrestricted
submarine warfare in 1917 had on many members of Congress who had, until
then, been very reluctant to involve the U.S. directly in the war.)

My original conclusion about your post stands. It is amusing polemic,
particularly for those readers who may, for whatever reason, harbor a
dislike for England and the English. But I do not think it wise for anyone
to take it seriously as a work of critical scholarship. I do not fault it,
however, as an honest expression of your personal opinion.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- From reading your many posts, I can only imagine that someone with
your energy and optimistic outlook on life would not let a bum knee slow
them down in the least bit. I hope you are back on your feet as soon as
possible.
+ - Questions about Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi,


I have a few question about Hungary.


I would like to know the following:


1.  What is the average homelife like.
2.  What is the culture of Hungary like.
3.  What dance and songs are popular.
4.  What is the clothing and dress like.


Thanks so much for the help.



> ---------------------------------------------------
  Your Welkom at Arthur's Homepage !
> ---------------------------------------------------
  http://www.iaehv.nl/users/artloek/
> ---------------------------------------------------
  
> ---------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: To Joe about PC. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>There was once a guest speaker at our university, she
>was talking about the current racism in the US. One of her example of the
>hidden, intrinsic racist feeling of the caucasian society was a world
map.
>First of all the American continent was in the centre, this should
represent
>the 'America number one' feeling according her. Well, so what, all the
>Europian
>world map has Europe in the middle. But the most funny was her second
>argument,
>namely that the map shown North America bigger then in reality. This
should
>represent the supermacy over central Africa, so this map was very racist.
>Furthermore she presented another map which was showing North America on
the
>right scale. We learnt this way that the evil american educational system
>implant the racist feelings at very early age with very inocent looking
>tools.
>Apperantly she did not know (probably) that her second map shown
incorrect
>distances at higher latitudes, because its projection method.

I'll hazard two guesses about our unnamed lecturer here. Number one, I bet
she's on the fast track tenure-wise at whatever university English
department she infests. Number two, that infestation is probably being
undertaken at either an Ivy League school or a university in California's
state system.
Sam Stowe
+ - Anyone know Victoria Tamas? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

B"H Luzern

Victoria is a friend from Budapest, and I'd be grateful if anyone
can help me find her email address. She's an American who works
with the American government in connection with the Hungarians.

Many thanks,

Alex Jacobowitz
+ - WWI (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.Stowe wrote:

>Nor does Barbara Tuchmann's scholarship on the origins of American
>involvement in the First World War conclude that the U.S. was drawn into
>the war by British machinations. (Thanks to the Hungary reader who wrote
>to remind me of the impact that Germany's resumption of unrestricted
>submarine warfare in 1917 had on many members of Congress who had, until
>then, been very reluctant to involve the U.S. directly in the war.)

I think the origin of US involvement was very simple. By that time (1917)
it was predictable who will win the war. For an upcoming superpower
like the US at that time to be a winer at the peace-treaty was a good
debutation.

Janos
+ - Re: To Joe about PC. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Sam (I'll get your name right, yet):

At 08:40 AM 1/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>In article >,
>Janos Zsargo > writes:
>
>>There was once a guest speaker at our university, she
>>was talking about the current racism in the US. One of her example of the
>>hidden, intrinsic racist feeling of the caucasian society was a world
>map.
>>First of all the American continent was in the centre, this should
>represent
>>the 'America number one' feeling according her. Well, so what, all the
>>Europian
>>world map has Europe in the middle. But the most funny was her second
>>argument,
>>namely that the map shown North America bigger then in reality. This
>should
>>represent the supermacy over central Africa, so this map was very racist.
>>Furthermore she presented another map which was showing North America on
>the
>>right scale. We learnt this way that the evil american educational system
>>implant the racist feelings at very early age with very inocent looking
>>tools.
>>Apperantly she did not know (probably) that her second map shown
>incorrect
>>distances at higher latitudes, because its projection method.
>
>I'll hazard two guesses about our unnamed lecturer here. Number one, I bet
>she's on the fast track tenure-wise at whatever university English
>department she infests. Number two, that infestation is probably being
>undertaken at either an Ivy League school or a university in California's
>state system.
>Sam Stowe
>
>
This sure sounds like someone I can think of who is now at UC-Santa Cruz.
We've often wondered how much damage there is from hypothermia from the 50
degrees ocean --which students and professors still insist on entering
regularly, or the all too frequent bop on the head from surfboards (same
source, generally, although there was one occasion when one set of my
godparents were sent to the hospital by a collision with a surfboard on the
freeway...)

Thanks for this one, by the way I studied mostly in the far north,
Minnesota, probably good for really frozen brain cells.  I know it sure
wasn't good for cars--ever see a car blow its oil seal and deposit a single
semi-solid bowling ball on the garage floor?  My guess is that's a real
analogy for the condition of a human brain after more than one winter up
there--and I lived there for 17 years.  However, after the first 10 I
finally learned to more-or-less hibernate for at least 4 months, whenever
possible, so I think I thawed out a few cells.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Re: The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:44 PM 1/28/96 -0500, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

>Hmmmm... Just a no-doubt Lucifer inspired thought, but do you think part of
>the problem could be that too many are just discussing and basing their
>expressions on _theories_ and not either scientifically proven and
>repeatable experimentation or consistent and frequent observation of
>realities?

No.  They are discussing and basing their expressions on "passion".  Both
argue passionately for a better world.  And this activity is above and
beyond scientific proof, repeatable experimentation or frequent observation.
And that's why you, I, and everyone else participate in the debate.  If
science provided all the answers to all our questions, it would be a dull
world indeed.  Does your current Republicanism come from your apparent
tendency towards scientific utopianism?

>How do theories get started anyway?  Don't they start out from some one's
>personal beliefs and questions that he or she is still seeking to prove or
>disprove?  Aren't the hypotheses often set based upon desires and
>expectations and the selections of either experiments or situations to
>observe made based upon the desires and expectations?

Yes.  But you seem to have a problem with that.  Theories are theories.
Once they are 'proved', or 'proven', or whatever, they are no longer
theories.  It's like peoples faith in gods.  If 'gods' could be proven to
'be', there wouldn't be any need for faith.

>(Save this one for answering on a night when the weather is too lousy to go
>out, you've read everything in your house, and everything on television is
>a repeat of a repeat, and at least half of it never should have been
>produced in the first place.)

Sorry for replying so soon Cecilia.  I quess you haven't experienced too
many Canadian winters.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: To Joe about PC. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:40 AM 1/28/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>I'll hazard two guesses about our unnamed lecturer here. Number one, I bet
>she's on the fast track tenure-wise at whatever university English
>department she infests. Number two, that infestation is probably being
>undertaken at either an Ivy League school or a university in California's
>state system.

It's just amazing how far a heritic, who shows that there are several ways
to project the world onto a map, can go.  To avoid infestation, future
leaders should learn at 'provincial' universities.  It's safer.  Once one's
mind is made up, facts can be very unsettling.  And a rocked boat makes for
an unpleasant journey.

Joe Szalai

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