I want to remind those of you who may want to complain
at AOL against Megorov that I have made an error: the email
address for complaints is . Below is a new
copy of that letter with correction. Sorry

Laszlo Horvath wrote:

Dear contributos to this newsgroup:

I hope that the rest of you too was upset by what
the sickman of AOL, Megorov, has done. He has exercised
censorship.
I am not technically competent to figure out how Megorov
has done the contributions. But many of you probably will
solve the problem.
Hungarians are good at technical matters and I hope that
some of you will find a way to teach Megorov a lesson
not, ever again, try to exercise "technical" censorship
over other peoples' freedom of expression and, especially,
not to meddle with Hungarians
I have emailed to AOL (Megorov's Internet and email service)
a letter of complaint, documenting as much as I could, Megorov's
activities. It seems that AOL has a department, so called
Abuse, that is concerned with client abuses. Please
send an email to that unit (email is: )
I am attaching a copy of that letter below. I think what
Megorov has done by this morning (here in California, June 28,
Fridays) is just too much. He deserves to be punished.
Sincerely, Laszlo horvath
----------------

                       Laszlo Horvath
                       Hoover Institution
                       Stanford University
                       Palo Alto, CA

                       June 28, 1996

Abuse Section
America Online

Dear Madam/Sir:

A certain MEgorov, and AOL subscriber, several weeks ago
started mailing abusive, provocative, inflamatory notes to
the newsgroup Soc.culture.magyar. Most of these Megorov notes
are abusive of Hungary and Hungarians.
Contributors to the newsgroup on the whole decided to ignore
Megorov, seeing that a sick and disturbed person was at work.
Megor seems to have been mailing similar notes to the emails
of individual contributors as well.
But this morning (June 28, Friday) we are confronted with a very
serious problem. Somehow Megorov has managed to replace the contents
of most contributions to the newsgroup with a standard abusive
contributions, including those of most electronic journals presented
on this newsgroup.
This is a very serious case: Megorov has exercised censorship, denied
the rights of the readers/browsers of, and contributors to, this
news group.
For technical reasons I am unable to attach a copy of the index of
this mornings's Soc.culture.magyar. You could see that 80 percent of
the long list of contributors' name is that of Megorov.
I was looking forward this morning, as I am sure many other
contributors, to read one anothers comments on subjects we consider
serious, and to read the various electronicjournals, and uppon
opening each item, find only Megorov's standard abusive note.
I am attaching below copies of some of his activities and hope
that AOL officials will look into this matter.
Thank you. Sincerely, Laszlo Horvath )
> --------------------------------------------------------

Deja News' search index record of Megorov's Internet transactions
between dates below:

Hits 1 - 20 of 40:
       Date   Scr        Subject              Newsgroup           Author

  1. 96/06/16 025 tttttttttttttttttttttttt soc.culture.romania 
 (ME
  2. 96/06/15 025 era                      soc.culture.romania 
 (ME
  3. 96/06/25 023 Re: (no subject)         soc.culture.magyar  "Juan C. 
Azcoitia"
  4. 96/06/25 023 Re: (no subject)         soc.culture.magyar  "Juan C. 
Azcoitia"
  5. 96/06/22 023 Re: hun. language        soc.culture.magyar  

  6. 96/06/21 023 Re: Cultural Information bit.listserv.hungar 
 (ME
  7. 96/06/20 022 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  

  8. 96/06/20 022 Re: hungarian language   soc.culture.magyar  Joan 
Azcoitia <proj
  9. 96/06/18 022 hungarian language       soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 10. 96/06/18 022 The 'megorov'troll / Re: soc.culture.magyar  "Zoli 
Fekete, keepe
 11. 96/06/18 022 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 12. 96/06/18 022 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  
.
 13. 96/06/18 022 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 14. 96/06/17 022 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  
.
 15. 96/06/17 022 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  
.
 16. 96/06/16 022 Re: USA                  soc.culture.magyar  

 17. 96/06/16 022 Re: USA                  soc.culture.magyar  

 18. 96/06/16 022 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  

 19. 96/06/14 022 USA                      soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 20. 96/06/14 022 HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE       soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 21. 96/06/22 022 Re: hun. language        soc.culture.magyar  

 22. 96/06/22 022 Re: hun. language        soc.culture.magyar  

 23. 96/06/21 022 HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE       soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 24. 96/06/21 022 hun. lang.               bit.listserv.hungar 
 (ME
 25. 96/06/22 021 Re: hun. language        soc.culture.magyar  Ivan 
Marinov <ivi@i
 26. 96/06/21 021 hungarian language       soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 27. 96/06/21 021 hun. language            soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 28. 96/06/19 021 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  "Juan C. 
Azcoitia"
 29. 96/06/18 021 Re: hungarian language   soc.culture.magyar  
.
 30. 96/06/18 021 hungarian language       soc.culture.magyar  
 (ME
 31. 96/06/17 021 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  
.
 32. 96/06/16 021 Re: USA                  soc.culture.magyar  
.
 33. 96/06/16 021 Re: USA                  soc.culture.magyar  

 34. 96/06/15 021 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  

 35. 96/06/15 021 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  

 36. 96/06/15 021 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  

 37. 96/06/14 021 Re: USA                  soc.culture.magyar  

 38. 96/06/03 021 Vlachs                   soc.culture.romania 
 (ME
 39. 96/06/21 020 Re: (no subject)         soc.culture.magyar  Laszlo 
Horvath <lho
 40. 96/06/16 020 Re: HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE   soc.culture.magyar  

--------------
Prior to that he had also posted the following:

     14 articles posted between 1996/06/03 and 1996/06/21.
     21 % followups.
     Number of articles posted to individual newsgroups (slightly skewed 
by
     cross-postings):
          9 soc.culture.magyar
          3 soc.culture.romanian
          2 bit.listserv.hungary
--------------------
Samples from Megorov's postings:

Article 19 of 40

Subject:      USA
From:          (MEgorov)
Date:         1996/06/14
Message-Id:   >
Sender:       
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Reply-To:      (MEgorov)
Newsgroups:   soc.culture.magyar
In U.S.of A you cannot find more than 100,000 Hungarians(MONGOLS),the 
rest
to probably 300,000 are inocent hard working jews,slavs,germans,etc.
(A Jew who is still alive)
------
In article > you write:
>CONTRY: Hungary
>CULTURE:Non  European
>RACE:      Non  European ( Mongolic Turk)
>RELIGION: (Inpoused) Cristian
>HISTORY: Play the role of mercenarys (Very relible for Austrans)
>ECONOMY: Dependening on Austria,GERMANY
>POLACY:  Commanded by  AUSTRO-GERMANS
>FUTURE:   Unknown----------------
Subject: Re: *** RANDI *** #510
Date: 27 Jun 1996 18:25:08 -0400
From:  (MEgorov)
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
References: >
The educated edition of "HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE"
COUNTRY: Hungary
CULTURE: NON EUROPEAN ( MONGOLIC TURKS)
RACE:NON EUROPEAN (URAL MONGOLIC)
RELIGION: Imposed(CHRISTIAN)
HISTORY: Mercenaries( by the will of god or ROME)
ECONOMY:Depending on Austria & Germany
POLICY: Commanded by Austro -GERMS
FUTURE: DEFINITELY UNKNOWN ( BY past and SWW2 REASONS)


I have a strong suspicion that a Mr. Andras Pellionisz
changes his colors, his names, as easily as a chamelon.
A little investigation lead me to the following conclusion:
there is a real Andras Pellionisz. He was in the past
associated with a server called magyar.siliconvalley.com,
and public.siliconvalley.com. (and lately with netcom.com)

A server, a domain-name, which has several users attached to it,
in Yahoo email search always states that there are too many users
and therefore it cannot give you any unless you give specific
user name (example: Szucs). But if you try to search any variations
of the above domain, i.e. public.siliconvalley.com,
magyar.siliconvalley.com or just the main domain, siliconvalley.com
it gives you always one name (even if you don't finger that name)
i.e. the name of Andras Szucs. However, if you try to check on
pellionisz at netcom.com (from where Mr. Pellionisz emails from)
there is no hit. Yet, he is there. And I know that there is a
Mr. Pellionisz. I live in Palo Alto and have friends who do know
-and incidentally do not like- Mr. Andras Pellionisz.

When I comb the Dejanews index for Mr. Jozsef Toth I find that
there is only one email address associated with his mailing and
that happens to be magyar.siliconvalley.com.
Since all "three characters" (Pellionisz Andras, Szucs Andras,
Toth Jozsef) seem to be to the right ideologically on the
newsgroup soc.culture.magyar couldn't they be the same person?
And the only one that I know of is Pellionisz Andras.

So is it possible that Mr. Pellionisz is a triple split personality?
It's true though that these personalities are not far from one
another. Not untill Mr. Pellionisz metamorphoses himself into
two kinds of Mr. Jozsef Toth: the one being the literate editor
of Nemzet; the other the illiterate, old Hungarian farmer diverting
himself with anecdotizing in an artificially quaint Hungarian
peasant-language.

I am beginning to suspect that Megorov fellow is still another
split off from Mr. Pellionisz.
Yahoo's People Search (address search) doesn't reveal much about
Mr. Pellionisz's chips-off the shoulder. The real Pellionisz has
a real addresss which is in Sunnyvale, Ca. and an additional,
probably work address, which is in Palo Alto, Ca. (You may get
the exact address & phone numbers by searching Yahoo's People
Search). Yahoo lists a Mr. Andras Szucs to reside in South Gate, Ca.,
and another one, by same name in Lafayette, Ca. For Jozsef Toth
there are also two addresses, one in Annaheim, the other in
Los Angeles, Ca.

Mr. Pellionisz, of course, couldn't live in so many places at the same
time. Even if he had a Dracula personality, he couldn't wing his way
from Sunnyvale to Los Angeles. That's over 400 miles.

I've thought I would share my suspicion with contributors to these
newsgroup. If my suspicion is true, this gentleman deserves to be
made fun of. After all a person who doesn't dare consistently stick
to his identity in expressing controversial opinions and hides behind
bushes to sling his arrows is a man "ohne Eigenschaften" (whithout
character) and deserves contempt. Especially when from behind
bushes he slings poison-tipped arrows.

Sincerely, Laszlo Horvath

Sorry, read on:

Just as I was on the point of mailing to this note to this newsgroup
a friend of mine told me to check out a certain URL. And I figuratively
"a fenekemre estem". Mr. Andras Pellionisz seems to be a noted
businessman (and he is associated with an agency/company called
Sillicon Valley, that strongly caters to the Hungarian community;
the company puts Hungarian organizations and companies in the Internet,
amongst others). Besides, on this Internet sight Mr. Pellionisze's
innumerable publications on serious scientific subjects, are cited.
Well over a hundred citiations.
Below I am attaching a partial list.
So I am puzzled. How could a busy scientist and businessman have time
and energy to contribute to a newsgroup such as soc.cu.magyar, let
alone to metamorphose into so many diverse characters?
I just dont't get it. I am too naive. Therefore if I've made an
error in my suspicions I do apologize to Mr. Pellionisz, Szucs A.,
and Toth. I am sure there must be another Pellionisz. Yet my crackpot
Hungarian friend/informant insist that this is the newsgroup, Nemzet,
etc. Pellionisz, and that he is a "controversial character"
Well, I'm getting a headache. I've been working under the same roof
with Russians for years and I thought Russians were "weird". We,
Hungarians, must be equally so (including myself, I don't deny)
-------------
Story & Milestones of SVNI

SVNI was established by Sept. 1st 1993 as "Neurocomputing Institute",
originally at One Washington Square, San Jose, CA, on a "Cooperative
Research Agreement Grant" from NASA Ames Research Center to A. Pellionisz
as PI. Initially, the Institute served as a liaison from Government to
Academia and Industry, as an extension of Ames' Neurocomputing-program.
With redefinition of NASA and Ames Ctr as its Information Systems center,
SVNI by 1995 it became "Silicon Valley Net Institute" and its scope was
broadened beyond NASA and Neural-Net R&D tasks, to also include
Applications & Services, not only in the Neural-Net field but also in the
so-called Cyber-Net (Infohighway). Particular emphasis is on the
intersection of these fields, as neural nets are the proven (biological)
implementations of true "information superhighways".
-----------------------
Publications by A. Pellionisz (no NASA-documents are enclosed)

All articles posted are public domain material, can be used freely to 
cite,
lift parts, figures, etc. with the only condition that proper references
are made. If Figures are altered, refer as "Fig. x after Fig. y in
Pellionisz, zzz"
Posted on the net:

(124) Pellionisz, A. (1995) Flight Control by Neural Nets: A Challenge to
Government/Industry/Academia. International Conference on Artificial 
Neural
Networks, Paris. (Ed. F. Fogelman)

(114) Pellionisz, A.J. (1991) Discovery of Neural Geometry and its
Utilization in Neurocomputer Theory and Development. In: International
Conference on Neural Networks, Helsinki, Finland (Ed. by T.Kohonen)

(98) Pellionisz, A. (1988) Vistas from Tensor Network Theory: A Horizon
from Reductionalist Neurophilosophy to the Geometry of Multi-Unit
Recordings. In: Computer Simulation in Brain Science (ed. by R. 
Cotterill),
Cambridge University Press, pp. 44-73.

(72) Pellionisz, A. (1986) Tensor Network Theory and its Application in
Computer Modeling of the Metaorganization of Sensorimotor Hierarchies of
Gaze. In: Proc. "Neuronal Networks for Computing". AIP 151, New York:
American Institute of Physics. pp.339-344.

(125) Pellionisz, A. (1995) The Geometry of Brain Function: Tensor 
Network
Theory. Cambridge Univ Press (in Preparation)

(124) Pellionisz, A. (1995) Flight Control by Neural Nets: A Challenge to
Government/Industry/Academia. International Conference on Artificial 
Neural
Networks, Paris. (Ed. F. Fogelman)

(123])Pellionisz, A.J. (1994) From Geometrical Foundations of NN Research
to Lead-Roles in Silicon Valley Information Industry in Flight Control 
and
Infohighway Interface. Invited Lecture at Korean Neural Network 
Conference,
Seoul, Korea


 wrote:
> 
> Szegyen, hogy akiknek fogalmuk sincs arrol, hogy Toth Joska ba'
> sokkal tobb tiszteletet erdemel, mit meg nem engednek maguknak
> egy szamukra ismeretlen emberrol valo hitvany megnyilatkozasaikban.
> 
> Kivanom, hogy hajlott korara, sok-sok elfoglaltsagara es nem legjobb
> egeszsegi allapotara mindenki legalabb annyit aldozzek a magyarsagra,
> mint Joska ba'. De jo is lenne!
> 
> Magam reszerol fejet hajtok faradozasai elott - ezert is adtam
> helyet Internet-domainomon arra neki is, hogy a cenzuraktol mar
> elboritott sajto egyhangusagaval szemben az igaz demokracia szabad
> sajtojanak hangjait amerikai modra szabadon ervenyesithesse az
> Interneten is.
> 
> Hala Istennek lathatoan sokan - egyre tobben! - segitik faradozasait.
> Bar a "gyerekek" alatt talan nem engem ert, tovabbra is kozbenjarok,
> neha meg szemelyesen is, hogy amikor o maga akar szolni, irodam
> segitsegevel azt kenyelmesebben tehesse meg. Kulonosen ha vegkepp
> nem er ra, vagy eppen nem eleg jol van ahhoz hogy szuksegtelensegekkel
> bibelodjek.
> 
> Sok magyar lap tulajdonosa (pl. Magyar Hirlape, Jurg Marquard Ur)
> meg Joska ba'-nal is ritkabban hasznalja nyelvunket, kevesbe azonosul
> erdekeinkkel. A tisztessegtelen csipkelodest talan rajtuk volna
> jogosabb kiprobalni. (Aki bator otthoni magyar ujsagirokon akarja
> kiprobalni elcelodeset, arra is tudnek egy-ket nevet ajanlani...)
> 
> Dr. Pellionisz Andras

Mr. Pellionisz:
I, too, have taken a jab at Mr. Toth and even at you.
If you or Mr. Toth would publicly, on this newsgroup, give your words of 
honor that Mr. Toth is bona fide I would apologize for my jabs.
Since I have tracked down Mr. Toth publications at various places I find 
it difficult to believe that a mature individual who is capable of 
writing in English in an almost impaccable fashion then turn around and 
write in such an atrociously illitarate and outdated Hungarian country 
language. I am a good judge of such a language. Until the age of 18 I 
lived on a farm, in the most backward part of Hungary, and I still go 
back there every other year for vacation, and can tell you that the 
language Mr. Toth has used is none-existent and is much too "mesterkelt".
It's a language only a city-person can imagine having swallowed a lot of
Hungarian fairy tales, some of the writings of Moricz Zsigmond, and some 
"folk-writers".
In the note above you even admit that this poor elderly, patriotic 
Hungarian pens his folksy Hungarian epistles in your own office. Frankly, 
this latest admission of yours only increases my suspicion. Only one 
thing could allay that suspicion: your word of honor.
Otherwise, as I stated before, to me your or Mr. Toth's folksy Hungarian, 
is a nothing less than a plain ridicule of the language of my many 
relatives (including my mother) still sweating away on farms in Szabolcs 
and Szatmar so that the likes of "Mr. Toth" in Hungary (whether they are 
of the political right or left) can eat and can make fun of the 
"paraszt".
For such people -before 45 or after 45, of liberal or conservative 
persuasion, nyilas or bolsevik, in cassock or in civil service or 
military uniform- had mostly only contempt for the peasant, ridiculed him 
and exploited him. I, personally have only contempt for such people and 
if they still keep up with their pretensions, consider them fair targets.
Now, you perhaps understand my motive for the venom I have shown.
Sincerely, Laszlo Horvath

In the '70s we USA-ers could get these things.

Now the Zwack is gone and the Egri is inferior!

Any ideas/suggestions on where/how to get them greatly appreciated!!

Bill Halverson

 (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:

>Nagyon tetszik Nagy Peter elemzese, es csak kiegeszitesul fuznem 
>hozza:
>P.A. megprobalta, es ez mindenkeppen figyelemre melto. En 
>kedvelem ha valaki szorakoztatni probal, es ezesetben igen jol 
>szorakoztam.
>Ha az eredmeny nem is tokeletes, ismerjuk el, szep probalkozas 
>volt. :)


>Szaszvari Peter
>(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

George Antony Ph 93818 > wrote:

>As long as the perception of ethnic Hungarians in Romania is that they are
>threatened as an ethnicity, such a sentiment is likely to transcend 
>political views of a less elementary nature.

Hmmm ...  This is almost exactly what I wrote myself, but I swear I did
not compare notes with George!  ;-)

>So, the best way for Romanians to create political divisions among Romanian
>Hungarians is to make them feel perfectly contented as an ethnic minority ;-).

Yeap!  Once the external threat is diminished, centrifugal forces
present in almost all Hungarian communities take over.  Then DB might
see two parties for every Hungarian sprung up.

Joe

Istvan Szucs wrote:
 
> Sure, but why would I believe that you are the one who knows
> what is universally good?

It's not me, it's God.

Ivan

I am looking for the cheapest phone charges from the UK to Hungary.
Please email me any suggestions you have. I will post a followup
with the best I find. mailto:   Thanks, Peter

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Ivan Marinov wrote:

> Peter Szaszvari wrote:
> 
> > Here is the point! Why do you call a minus 6 months old baby a
> > person?
> 
> Why do 	you think it's not a person?
> 
> > On the other hand, it is nice that you Christians are so
> > concerned, but would you be so kind to kep your concerns for
> > yourselves?
> 
> We want to make the world a better place for life. 
> 

If you, brainwashed right Christians, *really* want to make this world a 
better place for life, get lost, and your dreams will become true.


Alex

Szegyen, hogy akiknek fogalmuk sincs arrol, hogy Toth Joska ba'
sokkal tobb tiszteletet erdemel, mit meg nem engednek maguknak
egy szamukra ismeretlen emberrol valo hitvany megnyilatkozasaikban.

Kivanom, hogy hajlott korara, sok-sok elfoglaltsagara es nem legjobb
egeszsegi allapotara mindenki legalabb annyit aldozzek a magyarsagra,
mint Joska ba'. De jo is lenne!

Magam reszerol fejet hajtok faradozasai elott - ezert is adtam
helyet Internet-domainomon arra neki is, hogy a cenzuraktol mar
elboritott sajto egyhangusagaval szemben az igaz demokracia szabad
sajtojanak hangjait amerikai modra szabadon ervenyesithesse az
Interneten is.

Hala Istennek lathatoan sokan - egyre tobben! - segitik faradozasait.
Bar a "gyerekek" alatt talan nem engem ert, tovabbra is kozbenjarok,
neha meg szemelyesen is, hogy amikor o maga akar szolni, irodam
segitsegevel azt kenyelmesebben tehesse meg. Kulonosen ha vegkepp
nem er ra, vagy eppen nem eleg jol van ahhoz hogy szuksegtelensegekkel
bibelodjek.

Sok magyar lap tulajdonosa (pl. Magyar Hirlape, Jurg Marquard Ur)
meg Joska ba'-nal is ritkabban hasznalja nyelvunket, kevesbe azonosul
erdekeinkkel. A tisztessegtelen csipkelodest talan rajtuk volna
jogosabb kiprobalni. (Aki bator otthoni magyar ujsagirokon akarja
kiprobalni elcelodeset, arra is tudnek egy-ket nevet ajanlani...)

Dr. Pellionisz Andras

Laszlo Horvath > wrote:

>Dear contributos to this newsgroup:
>
>I hope that the rest of you too was upset by what
>the sickman of AOL, Megorov, has done. He has exercised
>censorship.
>I am not technically competent to figure out how Megorov
>has done the contributions. But many of you probably will
>solve the problem.
>Hungarians are good at technical matters and I hope that
>some of you will find a way to teach Megorov a lesson
>not, ever again, try to exercise "technical" censorship
>over other peoples' freedom of expression and, especially,
>not to meddle with Hungarians
>I have emailed to AOL (Megorov's Internet and email service)
>a letter of complaint, documenting as much as I could, Megorov's
>activities. It seems that AOL has a department, so called
>Postmaster, that is concerned with client abuses. Please
>send an email to Him/Her (email is: )
>I am attaching a copy of that letter below. I think what
>Megorov has done by this morning (here in California, June 28,
>Fridays) is just too much. He deserves to be punished.
>Sincerely, Laszlo horvath
>----------------
>
>                       Laszlo Horvath
>                       Hoover Institution
>                       Stanford University
>                       Palo Alto, CA
>
>                       June 28, 1996

This MEgorov even sent me a personal e-mail! I'll talk to one of my 
Bulgarian friends who has the habit to use CompuServe and AOL without 
paying, having hundreds of imaginary accounts. Let's see whether this guy 
can do something with MEgorov's account... :-)

Ivan

Mai oameni buni, ma tot intreb cind o sa incetati odata cu polemica asta 
sterila
>
>si fara sens intre romani si maghiari ?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

What is this Gypsy Language doing here anyway?

I thought the official language of the Net is either English, or 
Hungarian.


Dr. Laszlo

sziasztok,

en kerek egy magarul lanyt irni nekem, mert tanulok magyrul.

Hello,

I would like a hungarian girl for writing emails or real letters to me, 
because I am lerning Hungarian at the moment.

Please answer me.

My name is Bernd.

My email  adress is:

 (Laszlo Balogh) wrote:

>>Mai oameni buni, ma tot intreb cind o sa incetati odata cu polemica asta 
>>sterila si fara sens intre romani si maghiari ?

>What is this Gypsy Language doing here anyway?

Gee Dr.Laszlo, now is getting clear: the moron  MEgorov is actually
entitled to give you a lecture on linguistics. Such a shame!

>I thought the official language of the Net is either English, or 
>Hungarian.

You _thought_ ?!?  It's either the wrong verb or the biggest surprise
of the year.

Yours sincerely,

Liviu Iordache

Tisztelt soc.culture.magyarok!
1996. junius 28.
Ugy velem,  legfobb ideje mar, hogy megszolaljon az, akirol eppen szo
van! Hatha meg a tisztelt olvasokozonseg megtudna, hogy a ferjem neve
valoban Toth Jozsef, de neki sincs koze a siliconvalley
szerkesztosegehez.  
Toth Judit vagyok Kanadabol a 24. ORA szerkesztoje es valoban - rokoni
vonalon semmi kozom nincs a siliconvalley-NEMZET "Toth Joseph" nevu
szerkesztojehez. Nevrokonok vagyunk, s ennyi az egesz. 
Az INTERNET eleg nagy es elbir tobb Toth Jozsefet es Juditot, (a
Magyarorszagon elo TJ, szocialista verseket ir es gondolom alkalmasint
neki is meggyulik a baja, amikor "hungaristanak" belyegzik  szegenyt )
mivel e nev legalabb olyan gyakori nev, mint a zsidoknal a Klein, az
angoloknal a Smith.  -- S meg egy dolog: annak ellenere, hogy
Ungvarott szulettem, NEM VAGYOK TIRPAK. (Ezt uzenem a biblias Ivannak
a tuloldalra!)
<http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth>;
> ==========================================================

Dear Mr. Laszlo Horvath/Craig Livingstone/Tamas Gaspar Miklos/
Andras Kornai/Piros Laszlo. Please let me respond to your latter
"apparently, from Laszlo Horvath", in kind:

I am sorry for being confused about your multiple personality
and will definitely apologize, once you submit to me IRS returns
for the last five years for all personalities above, to prove that
you are each separate. Please make sure you also attach to each
IRS return written proof that none of you were members, at any
time, of either/or the Gestapo and/or AVH (Hungarian KGB), and/or
the insecurity office of the Wild House in Washington D.C.. If "yes"
on any/all of the above, I will have to handle your deposition
with "reasonable doubt" I am afraid.

I first became suspicious that "Horvath" is an alias for Craig
Livingstone from the Wild House, when he was caught brownnosing
in a heap of completely unwarranted files and data on a number of
persons. It is typical for FBI files to reference opinion of
anybody's neighbors in Palo Alto if he seems like a regular guy
or at times (especially on Halloween) looks suspiciously like Szucs
from Los Angeles. True, as a naive person I became confused that
it would be difficult for Laszlo Horvath at Stanford to be
in Washington D.C. at the same time, testifying before Congress
for what appears to be a felony for invasion of privacy, since
distance of Stanford and D.C. is a remarkable several thousands
of miles. Well, he probably telnets into his Stanford account
from the basement of Wild House, during breaks of the hearing.

Read on! I just learned from a friend of mine who is a sharp
cookie in lunatics, that "Laszlo Horvath" is actually a multiple
alias and at every full moon "Horvath" is also identical with
Tamas Gaspar Miklos, liberal nazi of Budapest, with a vengeance
of digging up dirt on ultraright wingers (i.e. anybody not left
enough from Karl Marx), and labeling all who disseminate
information, other than approved by Hornwell, with some sort of
a star (red? green? yellow?). Oh no, not all the time as yet.
At this point only on Kristallnachts. In such (hitherto rare)
occasions Horvath/Livingstone telnets into his Stanford account
from the SZDSZ HQ in Budapest. (More about that later)

Talking about Stanford account... Boy! How come I did not notice
this before!? KORNAI used to use a Stanford Internet domain -
before he pretended that he went elsewhere -- and reappeared in
his Stanford domain as "Laszlo Horvath!" Same liberal attitudes,
same Internet domain, they must be identical. Q.E.D.

Sure enough -- this guy Horvath/Livingstone/TGM is nothing
but a thinly disguised Andras Kornai. Still don't believe it?
Listen.

"Horvath" must be the cover for "Kornai", since Kornai has so far
been the lowest in standards of computer age, who abused personal
files on someone's profession for dirty political purposes (before
wholesaler Livingstone appeared, that is...) - and "utolso alak"
hardly ever reaches such infamous standing in a dead heat with
someone else. Horvath and Kornai must, therefore, be the same
person. Perfect (Horvatian) logic!

I don't know, but I am also suspicious, bordering on the paranoid,
that this guy is also Laszlo Piros, famed AVH (KGB) chief, although
they pretend he is dead for long by now. WHAT A SHAMEFUL EXCUSE!
Any proof? You bet! The Hungarian KGB worked in the same building
where Gestapo was headquartered, prior to the personnel changed
uniforms. And today (although uniforms have been done away with) --
there is an Internet station there with free access to it by every
free democrat! Horvaths are turncoats of Piros/Kadarjugend/TGM/
Livingstone - and they telnet from SZDSZ HQ to Stanford!

I could go on and on, and even append here long excerpts from
"Encyclopaedia Britannica", to prove that its author cannot be
Tamas Gaspar Miklos, since one poor person has no time for both
scholarship and mudslinging (unless his/her last name starts with
B, K or F). But let me just say one more thing.

I have to hand it to Horvath/TGM/Kornai/Piros/Livingstone - he has
an ear for dialect! Must be some sort of a linguist. Sure enough,
he was slightly off with how quaint and broken the Hungarian writing
of Joska ba' (Csornai?) can be, when they both speak/write almost
perfect English and when we consider the age of either (or both).

But I asked both of them and can tell you, H/T/K/P/L was dead right:
neither are from Szabolcs-Szatmar! Or from Nyirseg, for that matter.

Good work on dialect, KGB/AVO/Gestapo! Now just make sure you are
not hearing voices. These agencies, plus paranoia, can be dangerous
to your health.

Wenn Ihr Euch fuer die Wirtschaftsdaten von Polen interessiert seht
Euch mal folgende URL an:
http://www.glasnet.ru/~easteuroinfo/home.htm
Gruss
Webmaster

dbrutus writes: 
> There is a difference when the "elite" is created by ability, and the 
> "elite" is created by government privilege in a totalitarian regime.
Elites are not created by government privilege, though individuals often
become part of the elite by government privilege, just as aristocrats often
received their nobility by government (royal) privilege. Guess what? They 
were often very able people. Certainly communism introduced a totalitarian 
regime in Hungary, but this is obvious only in hindsight. Many people who
embraced communism early on were genuine idealists who thought they were
building a better world.

> So if a child was the son of the politically disfavored, the son of an 
> anti-communist, his scoring on the math or physics national competition    
> was unaffected? 
Of course. Scoring was anonymous. 

> He was permitted to publish articles in western journals 
> under his name? Well, well, hungarian communism was indeed very different 
> than the Romanian variety where this was concerned if this is true.
Indeed it was. Hungary was called "the most merry barrack in the whole lager"
with good reason.

> The comparison isn't the studious v. the lazy but the studious priviliged 
> v. the studious disadvantaged and the lazy privileged v. the lazy 
> disadvantaged. 
What is your point? The studious/lazy privileged always did better than 
the equally studious/lazy unprivileged, that is what privilege means.  

> There were and are elite schools in the West but getting into the elite in 
> the west was a combination of ability in the student and economic contributio
n 
> to society (money). While in the communist era it was a combination of 
> ability and political contribution to the rotten communist system. 
This presumes that the only way to become a member of the elite was political
contribution. This is manifestly untrue in the case of Hungary, particularly 
in the case of the intelligentsia. Even during the harshest years of 
Hungarian communism people like Zolta1n Koda1ly or Gyula Illye1s were 
members of the elite. They didn't actively fight communism, in fact both 
had leftist sympathies, but they by no means made a "political contribution 
to the rotten communist system". 

> As for the children of "workers", how was this F given except on the basis
> of political service to the regime? 
Anybody whose parents were blue-collar (including agrarian) workers got the 
F. Often, factory foremen and others no longer doing physical work would 
also get the F classification (by the same fiction whereby Ja1nos Ka1da1r 
was always listed on the election posters as "munka1s"), so you can say 
that the system, like everything else under "socialism" was abused. But 
abuse was secondary to actual use, and the actual use was to serve as a 
conduit of affirmative action.  

> Western scholarships are based on academic merit and sometimes athleticism,
> hardly the same thing as daddy being the best block snitch in Budapest, or
> for that matter Bucharest. 
I'm glad you think so. If you need it, I can fax you my old scholarship 
letters from Stanford, MIT, and elsewhere.

> No patently about it, neither is it unrealistic. It is true that privilege 
> existed before, during, and after the communists. But this ignores the 
> entire moral promise of communism that it would end such privilege. 
It was one of the many promises they did not keep. 

> It also ignores the moral implications of the politicization of such
> privilege. 
Privilege always was highly politicized, even when the caesar granted it.

> If you take power on the promises of a better moral system and all
> you do is increase the corruption of the system while making everybody
> materially worse off, don't you think that there is a moral debt that all
> those that benefitted from the system need to pay. It need not be jail time,
> nor even a legislatively mandated punishment. 
Who is "you"? I didn't take power on the promises of a better moral system nor
did my parents, for the simple reason that neither I nor they ever occupied
positions of power (and neither did my grandparents, great-grandparents etc.
in case you are wondering). The highest political position my father ever 
had was to be economic advisor to the short-lived Imre Nagy government, and 
the highest I ever had was senior researcher (tudoma1nyos fo3munkata1rs) 
at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. 

As for the system, a lot of people benefited, otherwise they wouldn't have
voted Horn & Co back in power. Since I did not benefit from any political 
activity, I have no moral debt to pay, and neither do my parents.    

> Why not something like a scholarship fund for the elite schools on the basis
> of merit and being a descendent of the politically persecuted during the
> communist period? Take some of the money that you are earning in part due to
> your illegitimate privilege and try in your individual way to make amends
> for your unearned advantages. 
Dude, the communists wanted my money (and got it, inasmuch as I never got paid
more than 50% of the average salary of the Hungarian bus driver). Now you want
my money. I didn't have the privilege of refusing them, but I do have the
privilege of refusing you. Descendents of the politically persecuted ceased to
get a bum rap in Hungary sometime in the late sixties. By the time I went to
high school plenty of my classmates were children of the formerly politically
persecuted. One was a Jehovah's Witness. One was the son of a nobleman.
Several were children of pre-WWII army officers, lawyers, and all sorts of 
"class aliens". Or do you think that the fact that grandpa was persecuted 
is a good enough reason to give people money? In that case I should get some
too, because my grandpa was also persecuted!

> If you believe in Solzhenitsin's view of communism, how could you have 
> continued to accept the privileges granted you by that very system? 
You misunderstand something. "That very system" didn't grant me any privilege
beyond a shiny black ID that entitled me to pay 50% fare on trains (fe1la1ru
igazolva1ny). This I might have refused, but I didn't. Beyond that, the 
only privilege I had was to grow up in the family where I grew up, which was
indeed a privilege, but granted by my parents not by communism.  

> Would you buy products produced by slave labor? Would you patronize a
> restaurant if you knew the waitresses were beaten and paid poorly? What kind
> of moral system permitted you to take your privileges when you knew what
> produced them was wrong, wrong, wrong. 
My privileges were not produced by communism in any significant way just as
the bread I ate and the water (even Coca Cola!) I drank was not produced by 
communism in any significant way. The bread was produced by underpaid 
workers in a bakery, the water by underpaid municipal employes, and the 
Coca Cola by underpaid workers in a bottling plant. Should I have refused 
to eat and drink just because life was pervaded by a system that was 
wrong, wrong, wrong? 

> This is why the utter lack of contrition for your privilege is so
> bothersome.  *You say you know* it was an illegitimate system yet you still
> accepted your bit of advantages. 
For the simple reason that they didn't come from the system.

> Taking advantage of an illegitimate system should be recognized as morally 
> wrong. 
Indeed. 

> Take a look at your own assumptions, can you really live with yourself
> knowing that others were destroyed or severly damaged and as a consequence yo
u
> prospered? 
This is nonsense. Many were destroyed or severly damaged, but I did not 
prosper as a consequence, and neither did my parents.

> Do you really think that not even admitting your complicity and
> making no effort to heal the damage is morally acceptable? 
I admit my passive complicity: active opponents of the system were few and
far between. Most of them went on to form SZDSZ, what Tibor O1dor called 
the most hated party. I was not one of them when opposition was risky, and 
neither was 99.99% of Hungarian society. I'm not a member of SZDSZ (or any
other party) now, but I freely admit I'm sympathetic to most of their ideas.

> I think this is one of the worse features of people like you. You aren't 
> bothered by your unearned privilege. Getting ahead based on your family or 
> political connections to an immoral regime isn't something to be ashamed of 
> for you. 
What political connections? You seem to understand nothing of Hungarian
society of the period. Connections were important, but they had no political
connections (and neither did I).  As for the privilege of being born in what I
consider the right family, yes, it was unearned. 

> And not seeing any cause for shame, you ignore the damage that was 
> caused to an entire generation of people so that you could earn your little 
> bit of favoritism later. 
Damage was caused to several generations, no question about it. But I 
didn't earn anything thereby. My parents didn't grow rich on the spoils of 
communism, and of course neither did I.

> You got while the getting was good and you see no reason to pay anything
> back now. 
Got what? From who? 

> You, in your one post, have provided a practical demonstration of the need
> for a moral reckoning with the petty criminals of communism, of which you 
> are one.  
Am I really? You, in your two posts, have provided a practical demonstration 
that you are eager to accuse people of crimes they didn't commit, simply 
on the basis of guilt by association, or what is worse, guilt by parentage.

> Do you deserve a Nurenburg trial? No, you don't rate. Do you deserve the
> scorn of your fellow human beings? Yes, until you recognize the evil you
> participated in and have tried to make up the damage. 
Well I'm relieved you don't want to send me to a Nurenburg trial. 

> > It is for this simple reason that these people do not, contrary to what 
> > Joe says, try to hide their origins. 
> They do not try to hide their origins because their origins are in their 
> own eyes and the eyes of their peers, respectable and morally permissible. 
> This is what is incomplete in the revolutions of the late 80's against 
> communism. The moral base is still intact to put another crop of dictators 
> up on top of it. You sir, are a symptom of a very insidious disease that 
> will destroy us all if we do not take care. 
Tell me more. Explain your methods of "taking care". 

> Why do I call it a disease? Because the next pied piper that advocates 
> an immoral system like communism (but probably not communism) is going 
> to find a fertile territory filled with little opportunists like you 
Unlike you, who were no doubt a hero of anti-communist resistance. 

> who see no problem in getting illegitimate privilege in exchange for their 
> political support. Hitler never could have risen to power without the 
> moral hollowing out that occured under Weimar. Now Romania, Hungary, and 
> most of the east is filled with moral slugs like you who are Weimarized 
> and ready to follow the next charismatic madman.
What illegitamete privilege, what political support? The only semi-charismatic
madman I see is Istva1n Csurka, and I'm not ready to follow him. 

Andra1s Kornai

Dear Tibor O1dor,

> Although  you seems to support those who caused Pe'ter Neme'nyi's fate, 
Pe1ter Neme1nyi's fate was caused by himself, and I don't support him.

> and you are not perfect morally in my eyes, 
I'm not perfect morally in the eyes of Tibor O1dor? Woe is me!

> I answer to your post, because you touched an important point.
Ah thank you, great master of the universe, for your great goodness.

> In my opinion you, and the group where you belong (Kadar Jugend), 
> completely lost its sense of reality. SZDSZ is the most hated party by 
> the right. From MDF to MIEP, and by the majority  of FIDESZ. 
In MIE1P, sure. In MDF, maybe. In FIDESZ, I doubt it very much. 

> This is a well known and highly publicized fact, even Petho acknowledged
> that.  That is "dream policy" what you are suggesting. It can never happen.
I don't find it very likely, especially now that MDF lost its "labanc" wing,
but it's not impossible. It is also the only chance the right wing has, 
eager as some of them might be to ally themselves with MSZP, something they 
were just as eager to condemn SZDSZ for. 

> (I have seen similar dreem policy of the MDF. They beleived similar
> stupidities before the elections. This is the most sure sign of the loosers.
> So you made me a bit happy. Thank you!)
You are welcome. 

> It is far more probable that MDF, KDNP and even FKGP makes a deal with
> MSZP than SZDSZ. 
There are certainly voices in all three suggesting such deals.

> SZDSZ is far more bolschevik than MSZP. 
Would you care to substantiate this? SZDSZ follows a rather plain liberal 
line, clearly to the right of MSZP. 

> Do not think that the post-maoist pre-fascist idiots, like TGM would improve
> its image. 
Each to his own idiot. What makes TGM post-maoist or pre-fascist I don't have
the faintest clue (and neither do you, of course). 

> Both the supporters and especially the party members would regard
> as a betrayal any deal and especially coalition with SZDSZ.
Supporters of what?

> Not making coalition with SZDSZ is part of the program of several riht 
> wing parties.
Such as MIE1P, the Csurka party, and the party of Pisti. Who else? 

> Good sleep, Andra's. And do not wake up, please :-) By-by. 
I sleep well, now that I've earned the singular honor of becoming subject 
of your wit.

> Ps.: I also think that your interpretation of the election results is
> completely false, but I am not interested in the subject.
> My guess that my fellow Hungarians were more concerned about the price
> of the bread than any other thing. And they remained. Bad news for you,
> Andra's. Very bad. Because those prices did not became lower. 
We will have elections in a couple of years so we will see, right? 

> You also spoke about F category for children of workers. But you did not 
> spoke about those, who were children of class-aliens (and those who 
> spent some years in communist prison camps), like me, who also had some
> books at home. 
Dear Tibor, it is my understanding that you received your degree from the same
elite university where I got mine, as a matter of fact from the very same
faculty and the very same program (ELTE TTK matematika), or am I mistaken?
Seems to me you are living proof of the thesis (see my previous posting) that
the education system was by no means restricted only to those with the right
communist connections. 

> Do not forget, books were very cheap in those times. And you did not have to
> buy. You could borrow from the library.  
Bread was cheap. Books were cheap. And rents were low, even on Ro1zsadomb.

> So blame your father.  They made a bad job. 
Blame my father for what? Who are "they"? What was the job "they" didn't 
do right? You must have studied logic with Hajnal, so you should be aware
that for an expression to have a truth value you need to bind each variable. 

Andra1s Kornai

Scott A. Safier wrote:

> The new testiment is silent on abortion.

And?

Ivan

Alexander Yordanov wrote:

> If you, brainwashed right Christians, *really* want to make this world 
>a
> better place for life, get lost, and your dreams will become true.

1. We are not brainwashed. You liberals are brainwashed. Christians are 
100 % free.

2. If we get lost, then communists, fascists, liberals and other atheists 
will come in our place. Do you want this? Look what happened in Germany 
and Russia. Do you want that?

Ivan

In article >,
Laszlo Balogh > wrote:
>Mai oameni buni, ma tot intreb cind o sa incetati odata cu polemica asta
>sterila
>>
>>si fara sens intre romani si maghiari ?
>
>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>
>What is this Gypsy Language doing here anyway?
>
>I thought the official language of the Net is either English, or
>Hungarian.
>
>
>Dr. Laszlo
>

Well, that's the price for being unmoderated. People can write anything in any
language, the only effect of writing in gipsy or swahili is that the readers
don't understand, and thus do IGNORE it.
GK

Judith Toth wrote:
 
> NEM VAGYOK TIRPAK. (Ezt uzenem a biblias Ivannak
> a tuloldalra!)

Nem szegyen az, ha valaki szlovak, nem szegyen. Az en dednagyapam (csak 
az egyik) is ugyanarrol a videkrol szarmazik, bar o nem volt szlovak.

Ivan

Lately virtually all FORUM postings deal with "Jews". In fact, using Deja News 
I run a 
search on the word "zsido" and discovered that no FORUM issue has ever been pos
ted 
without at least one reference to "Jews". - zsido 

Well, I understand that FORUM is the channel of right-wing Hungarian ideas. I a
lso find 
entertaining how far some of the regular contributors have drifted from the Hun
garian 
mainstream... but this obsession with the "Jews" is a bit out of control...

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On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Nagy Peter wrote:
> Nem tartom kizartnak hogy a karakterek kozul legalabb egy Csorna vagy
> Egyed alteregoja.

 Itt implicite feltetelezed, hogy az accountok es valodi szemelyek kozott
egy-az-egybeni megfeleltetes lenne, ami nem latszik megalapozott
feltevesnek. Valoszinubb, hogy megosztva hasznaljak oket; erre utalo
jelkent lasd peldaul a stilusbeli eltereseket - mondjuk 'toth' ingadozasat
a tort es a tokeletes magyar nyelhasznalat kozott, osszevetve a regi
szovegmintakkal amikor meg sajat nevuk alatt (illetve Csorna idonkent
valaki, valoszinu Egyed, altal javitva) irtak a Forumba. 

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Peter Szaszvari wrote:

> >There is only one valid definition of "good". 
> This is too simple to my taste. I just don't believe it.

Great things are simple.

> To me good is always good for somebody or something and there
> used to be somebody else to whom the same thing is just plain
> bad.
> I don't think that a good dinner for the lion is just as good for
> the one who is getting eaten.

We were talking about human beings, not animals.

Ivan

In article >, "Crispín Escalante G."
> wrote:

> Please E-mail me translation 3 words
> Thank you

In Dutch: Ik zie je graag 
or : Ik hou van je