Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 692
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-06-08
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: 56 (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
3 Public TV Program "Personal Belongings" (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
4 Wrongful dismissal (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  110 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: combat stripes (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
9 to ferenc novaki (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind)  125 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind)  89 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
15 To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
18 Christian symbols et al. (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
20 LOOKING FOR IPRIFLAVONE (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary, Stones and Glass Hou (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
26 Coat of arms (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ference Novak wrote:

> Since no one mentioned this here yet, only the guilty on this list may be
> aware of the sneaky and dishonest action resulting in Peter Nemenyi (NPA)
> losing not only his internet privileges, but his job as well.

An act to be condemned.  One's political views bear no relation to work
performance and should be of no concern for employers.  I am surprised
that it is possible in the US to lose one's job merely on the basis of
alleged political views.

> Regular readers of this list will recall the vicious attacks against him a
> few weeks ago on the occasion of someone digging out from the FORUM archives
> a two-year-old post of his.  He was accused of being an antisemite, and
> berated for using a <.gov> internet account.  An eager member of this list
> translated the post to English, and ominous threats were uttered against him.

Let's not widen recriminations here.  The article in question was topical for
the debate (even though the debate itself was not topical for the HUNGARY
group).  Translating it, something that Mr Nemenyi said he would not do for
lack of time, was courtesy for those readers who cannot read Hungarian.
As I recall, Mr Nemenyi himself thanked the translator.

> Furthermore it is sad that there are
> people here who, when tiring of debating issues on their merit, resort to
> such means to shut up their opponent.  The actions of some(one) from among us
> casts a shadow on all of us.

Is there evidence that a reader of the HUNGARY list denounced Mr Nemenyi ?
He has been active on other Hungarian fora as well.

George Antony
+ - Re: 56 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [Canada]
>
> The events in Hungary in 1956 should be called a revolution because
> 1. the revolutionaries in Budapest forced the formation of a new type of
> government which was no longer responsible to Moscow;
> 2. the communist party lost its monopoly of power;
> 3. the state of Hungary removed itself from the soviet orbit;
> 4. the old regime was overthrown;
> 5. the workers began to change the economy from state socialism to
> cooperative ownership;
> 6. a liberal-democracy was in the making from November 1, 1956 - a
> revolutionary change from party dictatorship.
>
>
>
> Peter I. Hidas

For once I'm in complete agreement with Pe1ter Hidas. The 56 revolution, had
it not been crushed by an outside force, would have resulted in a complete
reorganization of Hungarian society: the economy from state-owned to
cooperatively owned, the political scene from one- to multiparty, the
international alliances from the "Soviet orbit" to neutral status, etc.

As it was, the revolution accomplished quite a few things. Domestically, it
ushered in the reign of someone who himself has been at the receiving end of
stalinist terror, and was therefore considerably more moderate than the
Ra1kosi crowd before him. (Yes, I'm very much aware of the terror that Ka1da1r
used to consolidate his power, but ultimately he created a society that had
far more in the way of civil liberties than any of the neighboring countries
except for Yugoslavia.) Internationally, the revolution did away with moral
support for communism once and for all. The number of people who left the
Western European communist parties after 56 was remarkable. After 56, only the
stalinists remained, with all decent "fellow travellers" removing themselves
from communist organizations.

The 200,000 or so who left had a tremendous impact both internally (obviously
these were the more enterprising people, typically young and ambitious, and
their loss was a more severe blodletting than anything since losses in WWII)
and externally, inasmuch nearly every Hungarian had some friend or relative in
their extended family who left, and who provided a vital link to the western
world in the sixties and the seventies.  That Hungary is a great deal more
western-oriented today than e.g. Slovakia is largely due to the fact that
people had relatives who told them what the score really was in the "rotting
capitalism". Far be it from me to negate the genuine accomplishments of the
56ers -- I just think that for their majority these accomplishments came after
they left Hungary. But as a group, they clearly helped to give Hungary a
better image.

I think a critical break between the two communities came around the early
seventies, when the US returned St. Steven's crown to Hungary. The emigre
community was very much opposed to this, fearing that it would lend legitimacy
to the Ka1da1r regime (which of course was quite true) but in the process
neglecting the fact that having the crown back was obviously in the Hungarian
national interest i.e. that their actions were tantamount to a policy of
"the worse the better" (mine1l rosszabb anna1l jobb). By that time, the overall
feelings of those who left and those who stayed have drifted quite apart, and
the 56er organizations in Hungary have not quite managed to close the gap.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Public TV Program "Personal Belongings" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My local Public Television Station is scheduled to broadcast a program in the
series "P.O.V." (Point of View) on the life of a Hungarian refugee from 1956.
The program is titled "Personal Belongings," and was produced by Peter Bognar,
son of the subject of the program, Bela Bognar. Here is a description of the
program:

        "Bela Bognar is no ordinary American dad. Now a suburbanite, he once
fought against Soviet domination in Hungary. Steven Bognar crafts a poignant
portrait of his father's 40-year quest for identity and home."

The P.O.V. series has been on Public TV for about 10 years, and shows the work
of independent film makers. Many often controversial subjects have been shown
over the years. P.O.V. is not a regularly scheduled Public Broadcasting System
program -- it's purchased by many of the local PBS stations. This means that it
is not carried by all the stations, and, if it is carried, that it can be shown
at any day or time of day the station desires.

If you are in the USA and would like to see the program check your local
television listings to see if and when it will be broadcast. On my local
station (Madison, Wisconsin, USA) it will be shown on Tuesday, June 11, from
10:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. Central Daylight Time.

David Hinds
+ - Wrongful dismissal (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:

> I am surprised that it is possible in the US to lose one's job merely on
> the basis of alleged political views.

George appears to have a certain fondness for America-bashing, but I assume
this was meant tongue-in-cheek.

In the early Cold War years, during the era of loyalty oaths and the heyday
of the House Un-American Activities Committee, it was indeed possible to
dismiss public and private employees for their political views, or for
refusing to take a loyalty oath, or for refusing to testify against their
friends or collegues, even if the refusal was under the Fifth Amendment
privilege against self-incrimination.  The laws under which these dismissals
took place have been found unconstitutional a long time ago.

Under present U.S. laws prohibiting job discrimination on the basis of
age, sex, race, sexual orientation, religious or political affiliation,
disability, etc., it is exceedingly difficult to dismiss an employee for
cause.  A whole legal specialty has sprung up, with thousands of lawyers
busy filing wrongful termination lawsuits all over the country.  Most Human
Resources departments insist on a cumbersome, drawn-out process to create
an airtight case in order to protect the company from lawsuits by dismissed
employees.  The process usually involves several months of probationary
status, during which specific goals are set for the employee, and a
meticulous record is kept of the progress toward these goals.  The record
is needed to document unsatisfactory performance by the employee, and to
challenge any theories of discrimination offered by the plaintiff's lawyers.

There are additional legal protections that apply specifically to academia
and to public employees.  I have no idea which of these may be applicable
in the case discussed here.  The National Laboratory in question is a
taxpayer-financed public institution administered on behalf of the Federal
Government by a private university.  Public employees have elaborate
due process protections against arbitrary dismissal, including the right
to a hearing, and rights to appeal.  In addition, courts have interpreted
academic freedom to imply special immunity from censorship and regulation
for professors and teachers, above and beyond the free speech protections
available to all.

If Mr Nemenyi was indeed dismissed by his employer, and he feels his
dismissal was illegal or discriminatory in any way, then the place to
seek remedy is in the courts.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [United States]
>
> Since no one mentioned this here yet, only the guilty on this list may be
> aware of the sneaky and dishonest action resulting in Peter Nemenyi (NPA)
> losing not only his internet privileges, but his job as well.
>
> Regular readers of this list will recall the vicious attacks against him a
> few weeks ago on the occasion of someone digging out from the FORUM archives
> a two-year-old post of his.  He was accused of being an antisemite, and
> berated for using a <.gov> internet account.  An eager member of this list
> translated the post to English, and ominous threats were uttered against him.
Vicious attacks? I called him a Nazi scumbag, and backed up this description
by his own statements. Of course he is an antisemite (in his recent FORUM post
he denies the word antisemitism has any meaning, a telling sign if any was
needed), this is pretty evident from the blood libel stuff (I own the expressio
n
"blood libel" for ve1rva1d to a kind HUNGARY reader) which I reposted. I must
say I'm delighted if this action had some tangible effect.

For the benefit of HUNGARY readers who don't speak Hungarian, Ga1bor Farkas
translated the stuff into English.  I checked the last few FORUMs on the HIX
web (read at your own risk, the stuff is as bad as ever) and see that Neme1nyi
accuses Farkas, Farkas asks for a retraction, Neme1nyi won't retract. I didn't
have the energy (or the stomach) to go back further, maybe Ga1bor Farkas is
one of those who tried to reason with Neme1nyi. As for the "ominous threats"
I haven't seen any against NPA on HUNGARY or on FORUM, but there were plenty
against the person(s?) who complained at the Department of Energy.

It seems obvious from the fact that he is still posting to his beloved FORUM
(now as ) that he didn't lose his internet privileges.

> To their eternal shame, some people -- probably from the ranks of the
> stalwart defenders of political correctness on this list -- denounced him to
> his employers.  A long list of charges were leveled against him, including
> antisemitism and pornography, as well as using his internet account for
> private purposes, resulting in his dismissal.
So is he now a government-certified antisemite? I must say that Mr. Neme1nyi
has every right to spew forth his filth, at least under US law (in Germany he
would probably tried and sentenced), and I find the NPA version of the events
(check out the FORUMs of the last week) which is also the version presented by
NFerenc here, highly unlikely. Government employees don't get dismissed for
political views in the US. Even racist cops beating up people will generally
get no more than a couple of months suspension, and to make a pornography
charge stick you must be pandering to minors or depict children in the act or
something like that. Mr. Neme1nyi obviously trafficks in a very different
kind of filth.

> Those of us who remember the years of communist oppression, such
> denunciations are frighteningly familiar.  But it is shocking that it can
> happen in a free and democratic country where it is customary for the accused
> to be allowed to face his accuser.
Though I didn't notify Mr. Neme1nyi's employers (unless his boss at Argonne
reads HUNGARY), I did notify all readers of HUNGARY of my aversion to NPA and
his kind, and he can face me any time. I did call him a Nazi scumbag and I
stand by this statement.  The problem is that it is his own words that accuse
him, not mine.  It is my understanding that government employees can not be
fired for some random (anonymous?) accusation, that there are disciplinary
hearings, there are several stages of appeal, and in general even the most
outlandish violation would require several months of due process to result in
dismissal. If Mr. Neme1nyi was dismissed without due process we are sure to
hear more about this.

> Furthermore it is sad that there are people here who, when tiring of
> debating issues on their merit, resort to such means to shut up their
> opponent.
What opponent? I consider people like Csaba Zolta1ni on the right or E1va
Durant on the left my opponents (and no doubt they consider me theirs), but
I'm sure they would be quite upset to find that someone puts them in the NPA
category.  Mr. Neme1nyi and his kind are not worthy of debate, and I never
engaged in any debate with him. When it was clear that FORUM was taken over by
similar scum, I left (together with some other people -- the story is all
spelled out in the FORUM archives).  I have repeatedly urged others (E1va
Balogh can witness this) to stay away. I also repeatedly urged Jo1zsi Hollo1si
to close down that rathole (which on free speech principles he always
refused).  And as far as I can see, NPA is still spewing forth the same
wonderful stuff, how the conspiracy of un-Hungarian elements (readers familiar
with the political jargon of the forties will know what this means) has kicked
him off his job. To sum up, there are no issues to be discussed with Mr.
Neme1nyi (he might consider blood libel a worthy issue to be discussed on its
merit, I do not), he is not my "opponent" and he has not been shut up. A
to2bbi stimmel.

> The actions of some(one) from among us casts a shadow on all of us.
> I understand that some people, properly enraged by the outrageous behavior of
> the nameless accusers, have initiated steps to identify the culprit(s).
This is very politely put -- read FORUM to see the drunken ranting of people
like "Rambo1 A1rpi" demanding that whoever ratted on NPA step forth. So Mr.
NFerenc (a full name would sure be nice for someone so eager to learn other
people's names) go ask yourself what is it exactly that these FORUMites are so
"properly enraged" about? Who is "the culprit"? It seems to me the culprit is
no other than Mr. Neme1nyi himself. Is he now certified by the US Government
as an antisemite (sure would be nice, but somewhat unprecedented for Uncle
Sam, who last took such action against Kurt Waldheim, not some little fish
like NPA) or has he been fired for some other reason? The way I read his
postings on FORUM it seems he was fired for producing his wonderful stuff in
his office during work hours, the actual contents were irrelevant.

> If the accuser(s) have any sense of honor left, they should come out into
> the open and defend their actions if they can.  Otherwise, when they are
> found out, no one will listen to their excuses.
Who needs excuses? I have not addressed my denunciations to Mr. Neme1nyi or
his (former) employers, but I can easily see why people would do so. NPA is a
virulent antisemite.  Anybody upset by his stuff (and I was more upset by
Andra1s Pellionisz calling me Jewish than by anything ever produced by NPA)
has a perfect right to complain, and if someone did (NPA wrote there were
several such people), more power to them. So Mr. Neme1nyi will have to produce
his filth from a less comfy and cozy position than that of a government
employee, serves him right.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: combat stripes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado : Zsargo Janos
> I don't think it was a full-fledged resistance, too. However I do not think I
> am the right person to argue about it. There are enought 'veteran' on this NG
> to accept or refuse myths (as you Mr.Kornai probably not such veteran, too, i
t
> is a kind of odd that you 'do not accept' something about 56).
Like I said I didn't distinguish myself during the revolution. In fact I was
born only in 1957. But I don't accept that the Mayflower had twin diesel
engines or that szabadsa1gharc has taken place in 1956.

> I was arguing only with your cynical approach to those fights
I'm not at all cynical about them. Those who fought were heroes. I'm just
unwilling to treat the 200,000 or so 56er emigres as heroes one and all.

> While the hungarian army was set up by the Russians (in the 50s) probably wit
h
> a lots of caution, being sure that reliable caders are in the key positions,
 so
> when the turmoil of 56 came, probably the army was paralized, confused and di
d
> not really know what to do.
Reliable political komissars, the works. The Army was controlled by communists
(many of them Soviet-trained) at every level. Obviously it was the general
pro-Soviet feeling of the officer corps that made the army undeployable against
the invading Soviets. There is nothing mysterious here, just let's not confuse
"it didn't happen because of such and such reason" with "it happened".

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: On the question of casualties ( 45 sor )
>
>         The figures are from a report of the Kadar regime on the events of
>         '56. They have been repeatedly cited by various authors. See for
>         instance the book "The  Hungarian Revolution of 1956." Longman,
>         London and New York, 1996 on p. 103.
Will check this out.

>         Also, Hoensch, J.C. "A History of Modern Hungary. 1867-1994."
>         2nd Ed., Longman, New York, 1996, p.222 writes:
This too.

> Andras, do you call these figures "bogus" because you think that Kadar
> and his minions under-reported the actual carnage caused by the Soviet
> invaders? If that is the case, you may make an excellent point!
It stands to reason that Ka1da1r underreported. Certainly any figures
published as official statistics should be treated as lower bounds.
Statistics compiled in secrecy and not released to the public might be quite
reliable, though I doubt they would distinguish between those who died in the
revolution from those who died after November 4 (which is the "szabadsa1gharc"
phase that is at issue). Seeing what the Soviet military archives contain
would be most informative here.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:17 PM 6/6/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>Since no one mentioned this here yet, only the guilty on this list may be
>aware of the sneaky and dishonest action resulting in Peter Nemenyi (NPA)
>losing not only his internet privileges, but his job as well.

        About the same time Mr. Nemenyi was composing his tearful letter to
the Forum, announcing his misfortune, I was attending a Yale twenty-fifth
reunion party. Among many former students I was talking to a woman from the
Chicago area. Our conversation turned to her husband, a scientist. I learned
that her husband works for Argonne National Laboratory but lately only half
time because of severe cutbacks in funding. The Laboratory is hoping that
sooner or later more money will be coming in from Washington when he can be
rehired full time. Thus, I have no doubt, Mr. Nemenyi lost his job. That
much is true. The other half of the story--that he was fired because of
denounciation from his internet enemies--is most likely the figment of his
imagination. Or rather, another proof of his ugly antisemitism.

        I have been marvelling the naivete of the contributors of FORUM. Not
one person questioned the veracity of Mr. Nemenyi's statement. They all
believed that in the United States on the basis of unconfirmed
denounciations someone can be fired without due process within days. The
FORUM is full of cries of indignation against the United States, against the
Jews, against the liberals, against all those alien elements, who are, in an
"un-Hungarian" way, denounce others. From all over the world letters are
pouring in, suggesting names as possible candidates for this evil deed. Poor
Gabor Farkas has been mentioned by Mr. Nemenyi himself (that's how he is
paying him back for his kindness to translate his "lovely" piece on blood
libels) and lately there are insinuations about myself as well. Needless to
say that Gabor Elek was also accused, although Gabor has been back in
Hungary for at least two or three weeks. (He left the United States, most
likely for good, three days after posting his letter to HUNGARY.) Someone
suggested to compose a collective letter in order to protest the proceedings
against Mr. Nemenyi. (I bet Mr. Nemenyi wouldn't be too happy with a letter
of this sort to his employer! That might be the reason for his sudden
departure--traveling!)

        All through this, Mr. Nemenyi profusely thanking, in a modest
fashion, all his supporters. He achieved his goal. He is a man in shining
armor and the liberals, Jews, aliens are labelled as rats, their action
compared to the deeds of the AVH and the Securitate. Rightwingers in Hungary
are talking about the United States in the most disparaging fashion,
sarcastically calling it "the Great Democratic Empire." The same people
triumphantly point to the power of American Jews who are able to manipulate
the American government on the flimsiest evidence. Mr. Nemenyi triumphed.
But, of course, shame on Mr. Nemenyi who is besmearching the good name of
the United States whose citizen he became. Shame on Mr. Nemenyi whose lies
only inflames the basest instincts of my fellow Hungarians.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Indeed, but blaming Christians collectively for this is not correct,

point taken - but i speak of institutions and icons rather than individuals

>As for the behaviour of the police and neo-Nazis, neither of them are typical
>Christian groups.

as a blanket statement, certainly not, but as applied to fundamentalist
elements, i do think there is truth therein.  e.g. Operation Rescue in the
United States, etc.

>What is this "undevelopped" religion bit ?  What is your definition of a
>"developed" religion and why is it better than an "undeveloped" one ?

i'll save my response for a newsgroup devoted to discussion of religious
matters.

>I think that your opposite opinion does not concur with the sentiments of
>most Hungarians.

this i view as a compliment, as it recognises my refusal to follow the
groupthink of the majority, and places me safely outside that which Hannah
Arendt would deem "common"

thank you! :-)

Sven
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy

"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
Temple of Solomon.
+ - to ferenc novaki (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

<nl>
dear Ferenc,
<nl><nl>

I wrote you a letter some weeks ago quoting a letter of NPA (in Hungarian=
).
This letter of Nemenyi was disgusting and antisemite, but in the US you
have the right to be disgusting and antisemite. Be serious, real nazis
are using university accounts, organizing antigoverment militias so on.
Iam in Hungary now, and I was told yesterday that according to the FORUM
Nemenyi was fired. I really, really do not like Nemenyi, nevertheless
that stuff was way too much for me. As you might know I, myself was
threatened to be prosecuted for a crime not be committed and impossible
to be committed. Inspite of this fact I was not able to sleep for two
days. See Ferenc, if Viktoria had been a hardball player like this guys
I am probably dead today. Nemenyi stepped into some really hard shit and
it could happen to me tomorrow. Who knows where are the limits, the Empir=
e
strikes back tomorrow, the other side the day after tomorrow. I joked abo=
ut
reorganizing somebody's nose in a concave fashion, today actual non-verba=
l
violence is ante portas. The next Nemenyi (me ?) will be hit by a car.
As I told you, I am in Hungary, people are looking angry, really angry,
I do not see the sides, always the Other Sid, I start to understand the
Doors. The chain of violence and hatred should be broken, everybody
know but they are waiting for the Other Side. Now, the so-called Our Side=

made a hit on NPA, a hatchet-job, not our class, way heavier, Ferenc, way=

heavier. It is not a letter, Ferenc, if a letter can kill like this I am
out of anything right now, they would have swept me out of the World noti=
me.
Connection, big time, my dear Ferenc, connections in plural, I do not wan=
t
to know how high. Not the Other Side starts to organize some hit, I am
happy to be out of shooting distance ( I might be naive). There will be
a hit Ferenc, there is always a new hit, it is for the Family you know.
The Corleones and the Mattareses. Here we are. Best regards EG
P.S Sorry for the typos, the Not four lines above should be a Now...
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:17 PM 6/6/96 -0400, Frerenc Novak wrote:

>To their eternal shame, some people -- probably from the ranks of the
>stalwart defenders of political correctness on this list -- denounced him to
>his employers.  A long list of charges were leveled against him, including
>antisemitism and pornography, as well as using his internet account for
>private purposes, resulting in his dismissal.

        I have been wondering how it is possible that everyone of the
readers of FORUM readily believe this cock-eyed story. There are a few
possible explanations.

        (1) The rightwinger are ideologically so programed that they are
ready to believe anything which would reflect badly on the "Jewish,"
"pro-Jewish" liberal side.

        (2) A large segment of the Hungarian population--especially those
who spent most of their lives in Hungary--love denounciation stories. They
are convinced that behind every misfortune lies some political motive. One
young man of fairly liberal persuasion was talking, in connection with this
case, a possible "wholesale purge" at the Argone National Laboratory.

        (3) Unfamiliarity with American practices.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sven (?) writes:

> whilst i realise your need to equate my ideas with millenia-old ancestral
> rite squabbles in order to cover for the gaping lack of substance in your
> own retort, i must disappoint you with my firm assurance that my point of
> view would be retained regardless of surname.

Obviously you have no sense of humor either.

> with that said:


> first, had you taken to time to read my posting rather than quickly
issuing
> a poorly disguised attempt at avoiding the issue, and judging from your
> peripheral urgings for a less factionalised Hungary (bridging on
delightful
> idealistic Utopianism), perhaps you would find yourself agreeing with me
on
> some levels.

I am not Utopian, I expect that all intelligent folks strive for better
understanding toward each other, and I do not consider attacking any
religion or religious service as a path toward that goal.

> you utterly failed to grasp the central focus of my criticism for the St.
> Patrick spectacle, for whose genre's omnipresence in modern Hungarian
          **********

By calling a religious service a "spectacle" you have already expressed
where you stand in this regard. Being anti for one religion, will not
generate tolerance toward any other.

> Christian hegemony in modern Hungarian culture and politics, which i
> believe is encouraged with every glorification of the past method of
> spreading Christianity throughout Hungary, which, indeed, bread not only
> antisemitism, but all those other "anti's" you claim your own opposition
> to.

This is the most illogical sequence description I have read regarding
Christianity in Hungary. I am a nondevout Calvinist, whose ancestors at
times were not the best treated Christians around in Hungary (and several
other places around the world), but I still resent anyone's treatment of
another religion's service by ascribing the celebration af an event that
happended a 1100 years ago to antisemitism.

> this by no means is a claim that peaceful proselytisation and/or
voluntary
> conversion to Christianity carries antisemitic luggage thereby (although
> i'm sure i could drum up an argument for that also).  opposition to
> Christian hegemony in cultural and political realms is also by no means a
> comment on the integrity of the religion itself.

Maybe you realize how laughable this is if you turn it around, i.e.
every semitic event carries the luggage of antichristianity.

> however, in your reply, you graciously confirmed my statement that this
> past method of spreading Christianity throughout Hungary involved too
much
> intolerance, pain and bloodshed for a civilised nation to have proudly
> written in it's annals of history.  it is the glorification of this
> specific and unhappy era against which i must protest, an era whose
legacy

You mean for example Charlemagne used civilized methods to spread
Christianity and only the Hungarians were the ones who used armed
interference in spreading Christianity? Have you read the bible? It also
has several cases of not very tolerant treatment of other faiths in the
past.

> i believe acts as a rally-cry for the proliferation of discriminatory
> attitudes within modern Hungary, forcing us to unnecessarily repeat
> history.

This maybe your opinion, but that does not convert it into a fact.

> it is my observation that with the rise of the HDF and their "torpe
> kisebbseg" (i am grateful for the current political backlash against
them,
> btw), skinheads of the neo-nazi variety, and a non-inclusive nationalism
> based on white skin and Christian faith in Hungary, Hungary is
>dangerously
> close to reverting back to a country that does not welcome all
>Hungarians.

To my knowledge the most virulent antisemites were certainly not practicing
Christians. If anything they oft proposed return to ancient tribal beliefs.

> i find evidence for this in our reinstatement of a blatantly Christian
coat
> of arms, which officially wraps our country's history and culture into a
> condensed sheet of steel or a bumper sticker.  surely, one cannot expect
> jewish hungarians, nor cigany hungarians, who are just as magyar as
Istvan
> Kiraly (as far as i'm concerned), to feel full equity and representation
> under such a symbol.

Well maybe there are those who still believe in angels, winged lions, etc.
I personally dislike any hyphenated terminology whether it is Christian
Hungarians or Hungarian Americans. On the same stupid analogy you could
object to the star of David on the flag of Israel which has a large
Mohamedan citizenry.

> Jewish-magyar friends of mine living in a small
> village outside Kalocsa, as well as those living in the larger city of
> Szeged, assure me that the discrimination they feel in Hungary has not
> reached levels comparable to Poland or Russia, but nevertheless, they
> universally feel untrusted by their neighbours, and that they are viewed
as
> "outsiders" across the board.  that concerns me.

I am again troubled by your definitions and generalization. I have friends
in Hungary also who are of Jewish religion and they are not more concerned
by skinheads than friends who are of other religions. Your equation of
skinheads and Christianity is highly questionable.

> so i'm curious, jeliko - what are your solutions?  ..and what are your
own
> observations of my premise within Hungary today?

My recommendation is tolerance now!

Making antichristian statements is not anti-antisemitism.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Being anti for one religion, will not
>generate tolerance toward any other.

were that what i am involved in, i would bother to respond to this accusation.

>I am a nondevout Calvinist, whose ancestors at
>times were not the best treated Christians around in Hungary (and several
>other places around the world), but I still resent anyone's treatment of
>another religion's service by ascribing the celebration af an event that
>happended a 1100 years ago to antisemitism.

i do not believe there are Hungarian political entities organised around
promoting a Calvinist-free nation, through violence if need be.  please
inform me if you know otherwise.  also, please also inform me if the
genocide of Calvinists has been a routine event in Hungarian history.  would
Hungary stand idly by while half the world's Calvinist population were
killed?  if you show me that anti-Calvinist sentiments have historically
been and are at present anywhere near as deadly and pervasive in our society
as antisemitism, then perhaps i'd give your analogy some credence.

>Maybe you realize how laughable this is if you turn it around, i.e.
>every semitic event carries the luggage of antichristianity.

you seem to be stuck with the sadly misinformed idea that Christians and
Jews are at present and have historically ever enjoyed comparable power in
politics, economics, defence/offence, and self-determination in relation to
each other.  Christians have always had the upper hand, and have not always
been so covert about abusing such power.  it is for this reason that, in
this society, the majority must be watched with caution, and why, since this
majority harbours such power (hegemony, if you will), the majority must
display more responsibility than i believe was enacted in the glorification
of such abuses.  this is not an anti-Christian attitude, but rather a
pro-Christian-responsible attitude, my friend.

>You mean for example Charlemagne used civilized methods to spread
>Christianity and only the Hungarians were the ones who used armed
>interference in spreading Christianity? Have you read the bible? It also
>has several cases of not very tolerant treatment of other faiths in the
>past.

i in fact believe that these too are eras of European history which should
not receive undue glorification and idolisation.  being that this is a
discussion list devoted to Hungary, i elected to write about Hungarians,
oddly enough.

>To my knowledge the most virulent antisemites were certainly not practicing
>Christians. If anything they oft proposed return to ancient tribal beliefs.

there is a small number among those who claim themselves Christian, who live
with integrity following unedited the noble precepts as set forth in the
Gospels.  these faithful certainly cannot qualify as antisemites, for they
worship a Jew, and believe in all-pervasive Love.  that is the oft lost but
true Christianity.  sadly, however, they are the "great" amidst the
"common."   the world cannot forget the Crusades nor the Inquisition,
wherein, although misused, the Cross justified in our civilised European
minds the slaughter of millions of those who were the "other."  Christians
celebrating Hungary is not at issue, but rather, for the reason i've
mentioned several times, the misuse of such a celebration.

>On the same stupid analogy you could
>object to the star of David on the flag of Israel which has a large
>Mohamedan citizenry.

Israel was founded as an admittedly Jewish nation, being a homeland for
Jews, who maintain a national identity based on Judaism (i.e. Israel's Law
of Return), such a symbol is appropriate for that nation.  for Hungary,
however, it is the very defining of Hungarianness as exclusively Christian
that i protest.  unlike Israel, Hungarians are defined more genetically and
linguistically as Hungarian, rather than religiously.  i protest this
definition of national identity for Hungarians expanding to include
Christianity (let's go one step further and say Roman Catholicism), for that
would effectively exclude many from their deserved nationhood (including
both you and me).

>I am again troubled by your definitions and generalization. I have friends
>in Hungary also who are of Jewish religion and they are not more concerned
>by skinheads than friends who are of other religions.

although i also enjoy such contacts with optimists of that calibre, i have
to admit that the majority of my dark-skinned and/or jewish acquaintances in
Hungary feel concern.  nothing would please me more than to be convinced
that these populations do, indeed, on the whole, feel welcome in Hungary, so
i invite firsthand accounts of peace, as well as those of dismay.
Sven
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy

"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
Temple of Solomon.
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To Sven Koppany:

Thank you for reexpressing your opinions. I am leaving it there.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Thank you for reexpressing your opinions.

my pleasure.. it's a free service
Sven
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy

"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
Temple of Solomon.
+ - To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear CFW:

It seems to me, that at one point in your posts, you indicated that you
would rather keep your 'religious' commentary to a group that primarily
subscribes to such.

Please, explain why after having said that, you continue to fill my Email
with exactly that?

BTW - Where in heck do you gather those ridiculous "quotes" from, following
each of your posts?  "Castles, screaming for curtains? et al".... give us a
break, would you?  And, also, how many last names *do* you possess?  Or do
you change it at will?

Aniko
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:31 AM 6/7/96 -0400, Sven, Confederate Faerie Wonderboy, responding to
George Antony's comment, "I think that your opposite opinion does not concur
with the sentiments of most Hungarians", wrote:

>this i view as a compliment, as it recognises my refusal to follow the
>groupthink of the majority, and places me safely outside that which Hannah
>Arendt would deem "common"

Good one, Sven!  Groupthink, like mothers milk, is warm and comforting.
Some members of this newsgroup want it all the time, and they want others to
want it too.  They mistake the anesthetizing effects of groupthink for love,
acceptance, "fitting in", and all that other gooey stuff that so many get
stuck on.  But, alas!  It's an illusion.  Groupthinkers raison d'etre is to
be enfolded into the flock, and once there, they really don't give a fuck
about "the other".

If I lived in New York City I would not have gone to the Solemn High Mass
for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathedral.  My Hungarianness has nothing to do
with religion.  But I no longer expect the majority to care about such things.

>Sven
>Confederate Faerie Wonderboy
>
>"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
>-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
>Temple of Solomon.

And once they got the drapes, was it well hung?  Hmm?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:15 PM 6/7/96 -0300, Aniko Dunford wrote:

>BTW - Where in heck do you gather those ridiculous "quotes" from, following
>each of your posts?  "Castles, screaming for curtains? et al".... give us a
>break, would you?  And, also, how many last names *do* you possess?  Or do
>you change it at will?

Aniko, you're not going to pull a Martha Bihari on us, are you?  I like
Sven's quotes and I don't have a problem with the number of last names that
he uses.

Joe Szalai
+ - Christian symbols et al. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To Sven Koppany's (interesting combination!) unique interpretation
of Christianity and antisemitism I would like to add only a historical
footnote.
        The Holy Crown of St. Stephen, as we know it today, is the result of
centuries of development. The Crown of St. Stephen itself is a complex
artistic puzzle. Where did it really come from? We are still not one hunderd
percent sure. Part of it is of Byzantine origin, part of it might be the
original crown the pope sent to St. Stephen in the year 1000. The coat of
arms is also the result of centuries of additions, from the Anjous family's
coat of arms to the double apostolic cross of the Arpads. Whatever it is, it
has very little to do with Christianity per se. If it does, it does in a
very general way: everything in the Middle Ages had something to do with
Christianity. (I remember the time when at last the Holy Crown of St.
Stephen was sent back to Hungary and I saw, the first time, on TV the crown.
My breath was taken away it was so beautiful!)

        The Holy Crown and the coat of arms have symbolized Hungary for the
last few centuries. The crown was removed in 1849, after the Hungarians
dethroned the Habsburgs--hence the so-called "Kossuth coat of arms." This
crownless coat of arms was reinstated after 1945 with the the establishment
of the republic. A few years later the original coat of arms (the Kossuth
variety) was banned and instead a terrible atrocity was created by the
Rakosi regime--I have difficulty remembering it in all its hideousness but
there was a hammer and some wheat in it. In 1956 one of our demands was the
restoration of the Kossuth (that is the crownless) coat of arms and you may
recall that the revolutionaries a few hours after the beginning of the
demonstration cut out the Rakosi-created hedious coat of arms from the
tricolor. (If I recall the Romanians did the same thing quite a few years
later.)

        Not surprisingly one of the very first discussion of parliament in
1990 was a decision on the restoration of the traditional Hungarian coat of
arms. As it turned out the parliament voted for a coat of arms which also
included the Crown of St. Stephen as opposed to the Kossuth coat of arms. At
that time my feeling was that it was an anachronism to have the Crown of St.
Stephen included in the Hungarian coat of arms because, after all, Hungary
was no longer a kingdom. But the parliamentary majority decided otherwise.
So, be it.

        As far as Christian symbols of the Hungarian coat of arms are
concerned, they have little to do with Christianity per se. The Hungarian
coat of arms developed through medieval times when such symbols were a way
of life. The Hungarian king received his crown from the pope and that meant
something to the nation. Sure, later on, with the appearance of Luther and
Calvin, Hungarians didn't all adhere to the bishop of Rome but the Hungarian
coat of arms remained the same. It signified our statehood. And although I
am Calvinist, just as Jeliko is, I still look upon the Hungarian coat of
arms with its double cross (with or without crowns) as the symbol of our
1,100-year statehood.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>In his homily, the cardinal recalled the 1,100 years of Hungarian history,
>>emphasizing the contributions of the founding Arpad dynasty in the spreading
>>of Christianity in the region.
>
>I for one do not so readily welcome the return of undisputable Christian
>hegemony over Hungary, exposing in modern-day Magyarorszag one the most
>tragic and regrettable aspects of our culture that is better left dead --
>antisemitism.
>
>As I recall, the "spreading of Christianity in the region" was not as
>honest, painless, and bloodless as the good Cardinal would have us believe.
>
>Sven

Quite. And not just in the spreading of Christianity. The attitude of the
Hungarian Christian Churches to the so-called "Jewish Question" during the
years 1938-45 could most charitably be described as one of moral stupor.
For the information of listmembers, my PhD was awarded for research on the
Holocaust in Hungary.

Tom Kramer
+ - LOOKING FOR IPRIFLAVONE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

SUBJECT: Looking for IPRIFLAVONE
Marketed in european countries as a treatment for osteoporosis. Sold
under
the labels of OSTEOCHIN, YAMBLOLAP, or FL-113. If you can aquire this
treatment drug for me please reply with info. We can work put
arrangements from there .Manufacturer is Chinoin Pharmaceutical Works.
-
 

TOLD I COULD FIND IN HUNGARY
+ - Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter I. Hidas wrote:

>The events in Hungary in 1956 should be called a revolution because
>1. the revolutionaries in Budapest forced the formation of a new type of
>government which was no longer responsible to Moscow;

Tito took Yugoslavia away from Moscow.  Was he, and his supporters,
revolutionaries too?

>2. the communist party lost its monopoly of power;

Political parties lose power all the time, and for all kinds of reasons.

>3. the state of Hungary removed itself from the soviet orbit;

This is the same as your first point.

>4. the old regime was overthrown;

Yes.  You've said that in points 1 to 3.

>5. the workers began to change the economy from state socialism to
>cooperative ownership;

I'd be interested in knowing the differences between state socialism and
cooperative ownership.

>6. a liberal-democracy was in the making from November 1, 1956 - a
>revolutionary change from party dictatorship.

I would have thought that your 5th point would cancel out your 6th point.
And vice versa!!  Now, if you're saying that the people wanted cooperative
ownership *and* a liberal-democracy, then that would have been
revolutionary, even if it is impossible.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:13 PM 6/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Aniko, you're not going to pull a Martha Bihari on us, are you?  I like
>Sven's quotes and I don't have a problem with the number of last names that
>he uses.
>
>Joe Szalai

Hi Joe!

Relax, will ya?  Not pulling anything anything here...hmm...although in
second thought, does sound like fun, (tad kinky, but fun)?  But to address
your question.... it's simple curiosity and PMS kicking in - at once!
(always a dangerous combination).

It is your perogitive to like the quotes - and mine to find them
ridiculous... yes?  And, I don't see anything wrong with asking Sven where
he is getting them from...do you? ;-)

Best regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:31 PM 6/7/96 -0300, Aniko Dunford wrote:

>Relax, will ya?  Not pulling anything anything here...hmm...although in
>second thought, does sound like fun, (tad kinky, but fun)?  But to address
>your question.... it's simple curiosity and PMS kicking in - at once!
>(always a dangerous combination).

Thanks for sharing, Aniko.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lately I am spending many days away from my home (and computer), therefore I
don't have sufficient(?) time to deal with Mr. Nemenyi's accusations. I was
surprised to see them although I have an idea why he thinks I did it (if
indeed this whole story is true, after all he may just have been laid off
due to lack of work).

Before I explain, I just want to add that I agree with everything Andras
Kornai wrote on the topic.

And now the explanation: quite a few months ago I had a very heated debate
with Nemenyi (in the Forum) on the topic of usage of e-mail for personal
reasons by government employees. I tried to retrieve the exchange of letters
form the Forum archive but was not able to do it. Thus I am describing the
exchange briefly and from memory. My point was that I, as an American
taxpayer am opposed to his pratice of using his gov.  e-mail  address to
write to the Forum, first because the e-mail service itself costs money and
second, because I would like see government employees work during their
working ours rather than spend their time e-mailing. He came up with excuses
such as he writes those letters at home and sends them from work during
lunch-time, etc. Then I went to a few previous issues of the Forum and
produced dates and hours at which he sent in letters, it turned out that at
least a few times he sent in several letters at intervals of about a
half-an-hour, starting let's say at 11AM and ending at 2PM. When I mentioned
this and humored him about his lengthy lunch periods, he stopped the debate
and said that in the future he will use only his private internet account
(which he had all along). This was the end of the debate on this topic and
the end of the matter as far as I was concerned.

Nemenyi describes in yesterday's Forum the circumstances of his firing as
follows: someone(s) denounced him for being anti-Semitic. When he was asked
to resign, he was told (verbally) that this was because of his anti-Semitism
but in some written document he was told that he was being fired because of
using the e-mail for private purposes, during working hours. I am sure that
his employer could provide all the evidence requred since large computer
systems have pretty good audit trails of activities done on them.

Gabor D. Farkas

P.S. Nemenyi's comrades on the Forum are all in tears. One of them called me
a member of the Securitate. I will always cherish the insults from Nemenyi
and his ilk.
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary, Stones and Glass Hou (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You wrote:

>And not just in the spreading of Christianity. The attitude of the
>Hungarian Christian Churches to the so-called "Jewish Question" during
the
>years 1938-45 could most charitably be described as one of moral
stupor.
>For the information of listmembers, my PhD was awarded for research on
the
>Holocaust in Hungary.
>
>Tom Kramer
>

Tom,  you may wish to go back to school for a double PhD and this time
do research on the treatment of Jewish refugees from Europe who
desparately tried to get into the US but were turned away by the US
Government.

A Hungarian woman I know, whose husband in the 1930's spent time in the
US as a medical researcher, tried to come back with his wife using his
old visa (after having been turned down repeatedly by the US for an
immigrant's visa).  They finally somehow staged a phony medical
emergency to get off the ship in New York harbor.  Once on shore, they
disappeared as illegal aliens for 10 years, until they had the guts
(and a good lawyer) to declare their status legally.

And one of my friends and colleagues at work, who has a decidedly
Polish-Jewish name,  calls himself a Cuban:  his parents, having
escaped Hitler from Poland (maybe through Hungary??), made it to just
outside New York harbor.  After waitingfor weeks for US Government
permission to land in the Land of the Free, they were turned away and
the ship finally sailed to Cuba.  That's why my friend Steve now has a
Spanish accent when he goes to the synagogue.  (He eventually did come
to the US, before Castro took over Cuba.)

You see Tom, I agree with you that man's inhumanity to man
unfortunately knows no limits or boundaries. But at the same time its
worth remembering that people living in glass houses are really better
off avoiding throwing stones.

with best regards,


Charlie Vamossy
+ - Coat of arms (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> crownless coat of arms was reinstated after 1945 with the the establishment
> of the republic. A few years later the original coat of arms (the Kossuth
> variety) was banned and instead a terrible atrocity was created by the
> Rakosi regime--I have difficulty remembering it in all its hideousness but
> there was a hammer and some wheat in it. In 1956 one of our demands was the
> restoration of the Kossuth (that is the crownless) coat of arms and you may
> recall that the revolutionaries a few hours after the beginning of the
> demonstration cut out the Rakosi-created hedious coat of arms from the
> tricolor. (If I recall the Romanians did the same thing quite a few years
> later.)

Eva,

It doesn't surprise me that you don't recall the details.  Neither do I.
There is, however, something that I remember well: it was very similar to
the old Soviet - or only the Russian ? - coat of arms; it was apparently
fashioned after it.

Martha

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