>
> Eva Durant wrote:
>
> >Hungary 1956 by Bill Lomax (1976) is a third point of view. Eva Durant
>
> A third point of view? That presupposes that there are two others. Would you
> be kind enough to elaborate on the other two points of view as uttered on
> this list. Eva Balogh
Misty eyes of Gyula Horn opposed to misty eyes of Eva Balogh. (Each rep-
resenting a /misty/ point of view?) Eva Durant

Marc writes:

> It's true that I receive my information about Csurka from such second-hand
> sources as my wife (a Hungarian) and several of my closest Hungarian friends,
> but I've got to trust somebody, don't I? :-)
> As for my Soproni friends, yeah, it's all relative :-   *Do you seriously
> believe that Hungarians in Hungary are incapable of holding honest difference
s
> of opinion?* I respect their opinion, but does that mean I shouldn't engage
> them in debate, especially when they spent at least 1 hour trashing Soros who
,
> while no god, doesn't deserve the xenophobic and racist attacks of a Csurka.

Sure, but all I was trying to point out that your opinion may be no
better than theirs.  As a matter of fact, the truth might be somewhere
in between because you are probably as much to the left of it as they
are to the right.

> BTW, how many Hungarians voted for Csurka's party, was it 1.5%, hmmm.
> Joe, Csurka is history; I hear even his wife bailed out on him.   --Marc

Knowing a little bit about the political maturity of the average
Hungarian voter, Csurka's bad showing is not that surprising considering
the bad publicity he received since the publication of his "Gondolatok".
Of course he wasn't a very good PR man for himself either.  But despite
of a few questionable phrases, there still hasn't been a better analysis
published of the post-WW II Hungarian political scene as that
controversial essay of his.  My main disagreement with him, as I
mentioned it a few times before, is his ideas about where we go from
here.

Joe

> Gee. I was told that the living standard really dropped in the past few
> years. Are they calling in to their unemployment office to see what is
> available?  Or are they calling their stockbrokers?:-)
>
> Regards,Jeliko.
For the new yuppy-strata life is better, but for the majority (see
election results) the living standard is worse in Hungary (also in
the UK and in the USA in the last two decades, correct me if I'm wrong.)
In my experience to make a lot of money you have to be totally single
minded, ruthless and a few other things  like lucky -
ofcourse you may be perfectly civil for your family and friends.
The unemloyed people I know are far from happy, mostly have ill health
and family problems due to low self-esteem and hopelessness. I remem-
ber the feeling, and it is no use to be told that it is not society's but
your own fault, when hundreds are fighting for the few available crappy
jobs. (There again, there were only 92 applications for the one I should be
doing now... and I am from the lucky few, who actually enjoys the work - could
do with flexibility and shorter hours...) Eva Durant

>
> What is a kuvasz?  Is it particular to Magyarorszag?
>
> Paul

It's like vizsla, but whitish and more furry. I prefer vizsla.
But puli suppose to be best. Eva Durant

>
> Regarding standards of living in HU. My mother in law (a widow with social
> security) has been hit hard, but there's tons of construction in the country-
> side. Aniko's cousin Jozska says compensation & privatization has put some
> money into the hands of the few, but that the majority are suffering. What wa
s
> really sad was to see Hungarian consumer products pushed off the shelves in
> favor of foreign goods. I actually go to Hungary to buy its goods.  -Marc

With tonnes of relations etc I  endorse this opinion Eva Durant

I think it is very different, except for the approximate size - kuvasz
is a shepherd dog while vizsla is a hunter.             -       Zoli

On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> >
> > What is a kuvasz?  Is it particular to Magyarorszag?
> >
> > Paul
>
> It's like vizsla, but whitish and more furry. I prefer vizsla.
> But puli suppose to be best. Eva Durant
>

Dear Marc,
> I would be curious to know if there's anything in English about arrowcross
> who joined the communists directly after WWII. Or did they join only
> after '48.
 Things like Bibo's work are available in translation, but I do not know
where in particular can you find answers to this question. I think, and
the anecdotal pieces of evidence I've read suggested, that they
must have flocked there as early as they could, to get protection against
the "igazola1s" (='lustration') which happened way before '48.

> All I was implying about the vote was that, from my observations, the
> Hungarians in 1994 have basically turned their backs on nationalism in
> general, in favor of more positive expressions of Hungarian identity (look
> at new construction, for example, the boom in neo-traditionalist
 architecture).
>  In any case, Hungarians with any sense, who are looking beyond the
> country's borders, have no desire to make life more difficult for those
> living as minorities in fragile social circumstances.
 Yes, I agree with this picture - with the addition of some qualifiers.
*Some* Hungarians, on the order of the ten-odd percent votes Torgyan
got, belong to the hard core of nationalist/xenophobist/inward-turning
trend, they did not turn their back. The rest did not turn either, since
they have had their back to the nationalism all along. If you check the
political landscape of '90 you see an MDF appearing moderate, whose
success was largely the result of the party being the least ideological,
and their economical promise of some soft transition to "social market
economy" as opposed to the swift turn to capitalism branded "shock
therapy". The ideologized stance with fiery rhetoric came later when
they felt losing out to the more characteristic parties.

-- Zoli

I believe the Hungarian Foundation in New Brunswick NJ sells the book
about the kuvasz in English.  When I go there on Saturday I will check
it out and let you know.

Margaret Papai

Gyula Horn did not waste much time. During his visit to Vienna, Horn
emphazised that in the interest of the Hungarian minority, Hungary will sign
the bilateral treaties about the acceptance of current borders. I am sure
that all of the Hungarians, most of them not even allowed to learn about
events such as March 15 of 1848, will be glad to hear about this.

But what can we expect from somebody who has no problem to kill his
fellow countrymen.

                                                Attila

For those of you who are interested also in "Yugoslav" affairs, the
Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard has just published a book on
the history of the Bosnian Muslims - which I edited - I have a short
description of this which I can e-mail to those who are interested, rather
than broadcast to the whole list.   mark pinson

Zoli:

>Does this mean we must line up
>undividedly now behind Csurka who decries some lack of national unity
>there ;-(... And how do we know who didn't vote and why?

What I know about Csurka, I've learned here, from all of you.  It seems to me
he is, or at least has been accused of, prejudice against non-Hungarians and
 Jews.
If I'm wrong here, please correct me.

If he promotes national unity, and limiting foreign influence on Hungarian
 culture,
and the Hungarian economy, that is a good thing.  There must be some foreign
 owned
businesses now to help with the economic transition, and these companies must b
e
allowed to thrive now to help the country, and to endure in the future as a
 reward
for their contributions.  The type of complete open door as we have in the US i
s
 a
bad thing - no other country in the world has or will allow their assets to be
bought by foreign interests who will take profits someplace else, ie Paramount
Pictures, RCA with all it's pieces, the US computer memory chip (RAM/ROM)
industry.  Japan doesn't allow it, for example.  National unity is a good thing
 - it
is not the same as prejuduce or racism.  National unity is protection against
 the
dismantling of a culture/society.  Creis against national unity seem to only be
 heard
against European countries; I have never heard anyone accuse the Japanese of
 prejudice
or racism, but they are as a society the most prejudice and racist country on
 Earth,
if you measure them with the same stick used to measure European attitudes.  It
 is
IMPOSSIBLE for a non-Japanese man to emigrate to Japan.  They simply don't allo
w
 it
as a means of protecting their race and culture, and I say good for them!!  The
y
have been allowing poor Asian laborers to work in Japan for a few years, since
 they
have too many people going to college and not enough ditch diggers, but NONE of
 these
laborers was or will be granted citizenship, even if they marry a Japanese woma
n
 and
have children while in Japan.  Good for them!!  They have every right to
 preserve their
society and way of life. (A Japanese man can have his non_Japanese wife emigrat
e
and gain citizenship, but this hasn't to now occured very often).

If Csurka promotes getting rid of foreigners by killing them of, that is bad.
 ASking them to
leave, however, is justifiable.

Recently in the English-language weekly Budapest Week, there was a story about
 the recent
influx of Chinese small businessmen, looking to invest in businesses and lookin
g
 to gain
Hungarian citrizenship and raise their families - there are estimated to be
 10,000-20,000
their now, mostly in Budapest.  Does anyone deny thcontinued presence is a
 threat to
what is left of a Hungarian identity (Yes, I now that "Magyars" are hard to
 find, and that
most Hungarians are a mix of several ethnic groups - my mix is 1/2 German, somc
e
 Magyar,
and who knows).  There should not be any such a concept in Hunagry as
 "multiculturalism".
Multiculturalism is sn unsustainable condition.  The various ethnic groups will
 inter-marry,
resulting in a new group, and in the loss of the original ethnic groups.  You
 want evidence,
look at South and Central AMerica.  The native indian groups do not exist.  The
y
 are all
a mix of indian and European.  Is that not a horrible loss?  Carried to it's
 logical
conclusion, multiculturalism and a multiethnic world society must result in
 ethnic
homogeneity - one ethnic group on Earth.  No French, no Native American, no
 Ethiopean, no
Chinese, no Korean, no Asian Indian, etc.  Is that not a horrible loss?  I thin
k
 so.
If you think I'm overexagerating the situation and the outcome, again, look at
 South
and Central America.  That is a complete and extreme case of what I predict.  I
n
 such a
situation, individual identity with a group is lost - and so it any link with
 your
heritage.

Some people may argue that is not a loss since it will bring people together,
 bring down
barriers between different gropus, and result in world peace.  I think the lack
 of
world peace has more to do with greed than hatred of people different than
 yourself.
We should treat cultural and ethnic differences like we do anything we value -
 we should
protect it.  Greed and stupidity should be dealt with seperately.


Paul Gelencser

> news

I do not think so.
Jeliko.

Marc Nasdor writes:
> A follow-up about insurance. Personally, I don't care where I get
health
> insurance for my family. I just don't want to pay more than $1,000 per
person
> to get it, and I don't think anybody else should. Before our son was
born at
> the end of 1990, our insurance was $2500. After the birth, with the
addition of
> one child and prices jacked more than 200%, it went up to $8400. Now
that's
> obscene! And that was *private* insurance.

> -Marc
Your math will not work. If you add up what is the current health care
cost for the US and divide with the population, you will be
significantly above $1,000.00/person. Now you will add the government
agencies overhead to it and it will be even higher. The net effect will
be higher cost and lower level service. I repeat, there is no free
lunch. Please believe me, if I did not give medical insurance to my
employees I would make 3 times as much per year then what I make now,
(Yes, I know that I would not have a good work force then),  so there is
an incentive for finding lower cost health insurance for those also who
pay the insurance. IMHO, we are trying to fix it the wrong way.
Have you ever thought of it, that in the 50s this was much less of a
problem and the more government involvement since than the worse it got?

Regards,Jeliko.

Regards,Jeliko.

Marc Nasdor writes:

> Thanks for the insurance advice. I wish it were so easy here in New
York City.
> Even the local HMO that will accept independents charges at least
$5200/yr for
> a family. Mutual of Omaha offered a major medical for $3400 but it had
a $5000
> deductable (yes, that's $5000). Unfortunately, association plans are
not much
> better. But I will look into an incorporation or a DBA (doing business
as).
I do not know what you consider reasonable. We pay for medical insurance
which includes dental and 70% wages for 3 months for illness or
pregnancy leave, $5,124 for family and $1,909.00 for single, per year.

> Regarding standards of living in HU. My mother in law (a widow with
social
> security) has been hit hard, but there's tons of construction in the
country-
> side. Aniko's cousin Jozska says compensation & privatization has put
some
> money into the hands of the few, but that the majority are suffering.
What was
> really sad was to see Hungarian consumer products pushed off the
shelves in
> favor of foreign goods. I actually go to Hungary to buy its goods.
-Marc

There are no miracles anywhere. Regardless of who says what IMHO all
economics are trickle downs from the overall investment in the country.
The government does not "make" i.e. produce anything that contributes to
the GNP. The only funds it has that it takes away from it's citizens.
and when they give it back it becomes approximately 50% of what they
take in. So that is not the most economical way to do most things.
The fascinating observation for me in Hungary is that most people just
want a better life without doing much about it. I agree that pensioners,
particularly in the cities are hurting. The major infusion they need is
initiative, unfortunately most people with initiative leave because they
are too frustrated by the bureaucratic wrangling and the overtaxation of
small business, while the majority of the funds go to maintain
unproductive socialist mania behemoth organizations.
Perhaps, the reason many Hungarians are not buying locally made products
is because they participated in making those or similar pruducts.

Regards,Jeliko.

paul writes:
> For personal curiosity - where do you find facts like, TIME quotes
from
> 1940, or the population of the US, GB, Germany and their GNP??

> Paul
> d
Time published capsules for the past years of interesting items in their
issues. Many libraries have collections, mainly on fiche. Libraries also
have the Statistical Yearbooks. Perhaps some of our experts in the field
can give you detailed info. But when all else fails try the nearest
library.
Regards, Jeliko.

Zoli was quoting Bibo (I assume) saying:

> To be sure, the strata of Jewish intellectuals and craftsmen came
>relatively easily and quickly to Communism a fact easily explained by the
>different nature of their reiationship to feudalism and capitalism, as
>well as by their greater proclivity for social criticism. After all, to
>identify with socialism especially its Marxist version, requires one to
>follow the inner logic of capitalism to its final conclusion. Individuals
>imbued with the spirit of feudalism and serfdom have difficulty even
>understanding Marxism.

With due respect to Istvan Bibo, this section doesn't make a lot of sense.
For example, what does the following mean : "Individuals imbued with the
spirit of feudalism and serfdom have difficulty even understanding Marxism."
Whom is he talking about? When? Or, "After all, to identify with socialism
especially its Marxist version, requires one to follow the inner logic of
capitalism to its final conclusion." What do you think that is? Eva Balogh

>On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Eva Durant wrote:
>> It's [kuvasz] like vizsla, but whitish and more furry. I prefer vizsla.
>> But puli suppose to be best. Eva Durant
>>
Zoli Fekete wrote:
> I think it is very different, except for the approximate size - kuvasz
>is a shepherd dog while vizsla is a hunter.             -       Zoli

Actually, the kuvasz is a cattle-herding dog that was also used as a guard
dog around sheep herds.  For herding sheep the puli and pumi are much better:
they are brighter and more agile.  Vizsla is a retriever as well as a hunting
dog, a good all-rounder.

As for the preference of one breed over the other, it is rather personal.
One must keep in mind, however, how the various breeds can handle the horribly
artificial environment of suburbia (or, heaven forbid, an apartment).  Vizsla
and especially the puli and pumi need lots of exercise, obviously, since their
traditional work was very active.  Kuvasz and especially komondor (a pure guard
dog of a largish size) are more sedate.  Puli and pumi also need lots of
attention and company (the shepherds used to treat them almost as equals): they
are wonderful companions if treated (properly) as family members but are more
prone to suffer from 'personality disorders' than the other breeds if
neglected.  When I was little I used to have afternoon snoozes using my grand-
father's komondor as a bed, and this plus me pulling his hair and poking my
arm down his throat was all the attention that dog got.  None of the other
Hungarian breeds would handle that, quite apart from the size.

Finally, when considering such minor breeds (outside of Hungary, of course),
one should keep in mind that the breeding stock is likely to be small and
there is a danger of getting an inbred animal.  I have seen some pulis in
AUstralia that were OK by looks but they were nervous wrecks.  While the US
may have large enough gene pools in traditional Hungarian breeds, I would not
buy a Hungarian breed in Australia, however much I like them.

George Antony

Dear Paul,

> What I know about Csurka, I've learned here, from all of you.  It seems to me
> he is, or at least has been accused of, prejudice against non-Hungarians and
>  Jews.
> If I'm wrong here, please correct me.
 Then you haven't learnt from all of me ;-), who's saying that his targets
are fellow Hungarians (the occasional stabs at Tel-Aviv, Paris&NY agents
are just backdrop to the main theme).

> If he promotes national unity, and limiting foreign influence on Hungarian
>  culture, and the Hungarian economy, that is a good thing.
 I have yet to see him promoting anything ;-(...
> There must be some foreign owned businesses now to help with the
> economic transition, and these companies must be allowed to thrive now
> to help the country, and to endure in the future as a reward
> for their contributions.
 I would guess they'd take their investment to someplace (and
hopefully HU is one of those, despite your and Csurka's theories) where
they can enjoy its fruits and thrive in the future as well, rather than
choose the bleak prospect of bracing for mere enduring once the host
country's politicians changed their mind about the need of capital ;-<!
But this is only tangentially connected to our topic, since Csurka's main
thrust is clearly political not economical (unless you consider
ventures profiting him ;-().

> The type of complete open door as we have in the US is  a
> bad thing - no other country in the world has or will allow their assets to b
e
> bought by foreign interests who will take profits someplace else, ie Paramoun
t
> Pictures, RCA with all it's pieces, the US computer memory chip (RAM/ROM)
> industry.  Japan doesn't allow it, for example.
 I diagree with your notion of what the USA has, for all their rhetoric
they raised considerable roadblocks to free trade. But it's quite
irrelevant to us since nobady wants to copy foreign models, certanly not
an American one. Arguing over this is rather hopeless anyways when you
think that foreign interests bought up the USA chips industry...

> [discussion of how Japan is racist for allegedly doing self-protection
> the way you said is not racist is cut for brevity]

> If Csurka promotes getting rid of foreigners by killing them of, that is bad.
>  ASking them to leave, however, is justifiable.
 He is not talking about foreigners, but fellow citizens, who according
to him have bad genes, or serve alien interests, or just plain
insufficiently Hungarian by whatever yardstick he's using ;-<.

> Recently in the English-language weekly Budapest Week, there was a story abou
t
>  the recent influx of Chinese small businessmen, looking to invest in
> businesses and looking to gain Hungarian citrizenship and raise their
> families - there are estimated to be 10,000-20,000
> their now, mostly in Budapest.  Does anyone deny thcontinued presence is a
>  threat to what is left of a Hungarian identity (Yes, I now that
> "Magyars" are hard to  find, and that most Hungarians are a mix of
> several ethnic groups - my mix is 1/2 German, somce >  Magyar,
> and who knows).
 Yeah, I certainly question that assertion. If there exists such a nation
whose identity is threatened by a tenth of a percent 'alien element' then
they would have much graver problems than that presence. But I doubt that
there is any such, and ours is certainly not one.

> There should not be any such a concept in Hunagry as
>  "multiculturalism".
 There is none.
> [spurious American-based argument deleted]

> I think the lack of
> world peace has more to do with greed than hatred of people different than
>  yourself.
> We should treat cultural and ethnic differences like we do anything we value 
-
>  we should
> protect it.  Greed and stupidity should be dealt with seperately.
 Ah, well, yes, so?!

-- Zoli

In reply to your message of "Wed, 13 Jul 94 18: 45:08 EDT."
             >
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 15:58:00 -0700
From: 

Zoli Fekete writes:
> > There should not be any such a concept in Hunagry as
> >  "multiculturalism".
>  There is none.
Yes, but *should* there be one?

And what is an acceptable minorities policy other than "multiculturalism"?

--Greg

> Jeliko1 writes:
> I am using the terminology of "nationalization" as a determinant for
> socialism. Generally, the degree differs between the various shades of it.
I think you adopt communist terminology inasmuch as they liked to call
their thing "socialism" and they also wanted to nationalize everything in
sight. The typical Wester European socialist governments (Sweden, Spain)
can and do maintain a high degree of private property, and have essentially
given up on nationalization because

> the same time, I am not aware that any government owned organization was ever
> as efficient as those privately owned. It is vainness, that makes people
> (bureaucrats and their supporters) think so.
We essentially agree, government run organizations tend to be pretty
inefficient, and even the social-leaning liberals have largely recognized
this. Reprivatization wasn't an accident in Western Europe.

> I am discussing in general, that the taxpayer, regardless of amount paid,
> knows better how to make and more properly how to spend, than the bureaucrats
> who already live off the taxpayers and whose idea for a better life is higher
> taxes. Or the folks who come up with new ideas of how to spend, but all their
> life they lived off the taxpayers.
I'm not at all sure about this, even as a taxpayer. I lack the background in
civil  engineering to decide whether a new waste-treatment plant or a new
bridge is more needed, and I'm quite willing to delegate the responsibility
for such decisions to enlightened civil servants (such people exist, I actually
met some).

> It just makes it worse, that now in addition to the needy, the taxpayers have
> to maintain the typically better than average lifestyle of the bureaucratic
> middle class also.
In general it's not easy to lower their salaries, and actually I don't think
policemen etc. should be underpaid. How to cut government fat and
overspending is not any less a republican problem than a democratic problem.

> I am for as much local comtrol over the spending as possible. Otherwise use
> taxes for most services by the users whenever possible.
How would you deal with a large city like Budapest? Should it be district by
district control or more centralized? In particular, should tax money from
people living in Buda be spent on stopping urban blight in Pest?

> Unfortunately, many people do not want to and many do not know how to work.
> Many of them are well acclimatized to the amount of money they get from the
> public, without any effort on their own part to improve their own standard of
> living. Many of them are more content then those who work for a living.
So what? Beggars were with us from the beginning of time, and now that the
world is richer we can tolerate a larger number of them. I can't see a
 reasonably
well-to-do person like me to complain about this, and to hear someone like
you who's even better off to whine about the welfare-reecipients laziness is
just mindboggling.

> Ok, for an equation to be valid it has to be valid at the integrated limits
> also. Finally, we will have one fellow working and everybody else living off
> this fellow.
Actually, zero person working, all production being done by machines. We
already see a great deal of this, and we are going to see more. In fact,
jobs have become a prize to fight for, and I think reducing the workweek is
an imperative.

> Why is it that it is accepted that those who lived on taxpayer funds
> should have a more comfortable retirement than those who paid the taxes?
You mean, should government jobs be a means of increasing your status,
especially if you come from the lower strata of society? I think they should.

> I disagree. People in East Palo Alto would have more knowledge on who
> deserves assistance, than folks in D.C. or Sacramento.
Oh yes, they would have more knowledge, sure. But they don't have the money.
Can we play this out on the Buda and Pest example, just to steer closer to
HUNGARY?

> Alaska is not a good example for you, they were refunding state taxes instead
> of paying them from the oil departure tax revenues.
And they had a gold rush too. What services and infrustructure will be there
when the oil is gone? And when is no manna from Heaven (Hungary doesn't seem
to have any gold or oil worth discussing) the problem is no longer the cushy
problem of distribution, it's the rougher problem of REdistribution.

> So you consider it fair that the groups who have better grant writers get the
> money, rather than those who need it more?
It's the usual question about packaging. Do you think it's fair that companies
with inferior products but better marketing can sell more?

> It is how [my taxes are] being used that I have trouble with. I have not
> seen improvement in the life of the needy since the 50s when there was much
> less dole. The Great Society resulted mainly in increase in entitlement
> spending and not in lessening of poverty.
I don't think it's true, but we would need numbers to support either side of
the argument. Let me look into this.

> However, I have read a fair amount of deragotary comments when the voters
> selected people that were not the darlings of the liberals. The voters do
> have rights here also, not only in Hungary or in countries where the
> leftsists come to power.
Yes.

> So check the safety record of the industry that falls under OSHA regulation
> since and before the establishment of the agency. Not much to brag about.
> Some states have very good worker safety programs which are interactive with
> the employers, those states have better safety records. It always fascinates
> me that the liberal establishment, that claims that punishment for personal
> crime is not a deterrent, lobbies for the establishment of federal agencies
> that try to accomplish agendas by punishment.
I dissociate myself from the liberal establishment on that one. Punishment,
especially fines, works just great. But this has little to do with the
length of sentences, three strikes and you are out, boot camps, death penalty,
etc. Those who think that the unassailable logic of speeding tickets carries
over to mandatory life sentences without parole are deluding themselves.

> Well do they? The worst safety record is in farming and in the home, neither
> places are under OSHA. And why do we need a separate NIOSH and MSHA? Just to
> have more administrators.
Why don't you list some other baddies? I think the DEA is an army of
dangerous thugs, and Waco serves as proof. How about the defense
intelligence establishment and Beltway Bandits in general? Big Science is
another intolerable waste of money (the SSC shows there are limits, but
the thing is still a giant pork barrel).

> There is no free lunch. The taxes my company pays are in the price of the
> products we sell. IMHO taxes should be consumption based where everybody
> clearly knows what and how much the government actually costs, rather than
> hidden.
I'm sorry, consumption based doesn't get you that and neither does income
based. It's a completely different issue. Consumption based is essentially
regresssive -- could that be why you are supporting it?:-). While I don't
like too much progressivity (the Swedish example shows what's wrong with it)
I definitely don't think regressive is a good idea.

> By printing it or shearing it from the sheep. Currently, both restricted to
> the government. IMHO the four letter word WORK is the best approach I can
 offer.
Tom Wu sounds more alluring -- it's too bad you are more likely to be right.

> At times. I am jealous of the folks who were born in the late fifties in
> Hungary. You have never known personally nazis, stalinists, the war or the
> revolution. It is a favored time to live without those experiences.
Yes. When we were kids we sort of thought that all these wars and stuff
must have been very romantic, and we were uniformily sorry for not having
been born at a more opportune moment. Nowadays (still lacking actual
experience in the matter) I think wars are absolutely ghastly affairs,
the romanticism is bullshit, and I'm _delighted_ I live in peaceful times.

> > To some extent I am advocating forgiveness, but I don't consider this a
> > central issue. Certainly it is up to those who suffered to be (or not to
> > be) forgiving.
> Agree and we should not try to convince each other otherwise.
Without trying to convince you about more forgiveness, let me point out the
fact that society's reaction to something is a matter of the composition of
the society. The number of people who never had to personally experience
stalinism is well over 50% of the population and close to 50% of the voting
age population. Even if those who suffered under Ra1kosi are completely
unforgiving (which is far from the case), the response of society as a whole
will be diluted by those such as myself who have no interest in these
matters. I have on occasion made the same point about irredentism: you'll
be surprised to find how little interest people under 40 show for recovering
territories lost in WWI.

> Please do not take me for a frozen mind. I do learn something from somebody
> everyday. The problem I had, was with the manner of expounding ideas as if
> they should be selfevident to all.
That's where giving too many lectures gets you. E1va has been chided for her
schoolmarmish tone, and now I get it for my expository prose. I probably
deserve it more than her, yet I do think that the ideas that I am presenting
are the core ideas of liberalism and _as such_ they should be self-evident.
Before I had to put it in storage my favorite source was the 1911 edition of
the Encyclopedia Britannica, and I bet that under "Liberalism" you'd find
pretty much what I said. Before it was a dirty "l-word" of American politics
it meant something, and in particular it meant something in Hungary. It
didn't mean nationalization, and its redistributive aspects were more
regional than class-based.

This doesn't mean you have to _accept_ these ideas, but I do believe them to
cover fairly well what liberalism in the classical sense is all about. A
modern liberal, as Greg pointed out, would have much less trust in the
ability of the state to do things and would rely much more on market forces.
The socialdemocratic experience of Western Europe shows that excessive
reliance on classical liberal policies can be unproductive, and I can see
why someone like you would object to having the state intrude on more and
more aspects of life. Certanly de-etatization is the biggest task facing
Hungary today, and it is surprising how little progress a right-wing
government made in four years.

I don't mind to be attacked for holding any particular idea, I just don't like
being branded a left-liberal (I'm actually a right-liberal, though the
difference is slighter than one might think) and than attacked for
socialist/communist ideas I don't hold. My main purpose with this thread was
to elaborate on "Liberalism, what is it?" and you might disagree with
liberals, but you can hardly deny that's what it is.

> [FDR] was a slick politician like most of the others.
Sure he was. But I do think his political philosophy was one of liberalism.

> My favorite president in this century was Teddy. He was liberal internally,
> broke up the trusts, created the park system etc.,
^^^^^REGULATION^^^^^^  ^^^^^NATIONALIZATION^^^^^^^
Quite seriously, antitrust regulation was the biggest break with classical
capitalism the world has seen at that point, and I bet that lots of
editorial ink was spilled on how this intervenes with the businesses' right
to free association, their right to maximize profits, etc. As for the park
system, if that's not nationalization I don't know what is.

Andra1s Kornai

Dear George,

 I meant "shepherd dog" in a broad sense, including any herding and
guarding - as opposed to what I meant hunter in a broad sense including
retrieving whatnot (I just hope the puppies do not take my limited
accuracy in these matters for flippancy ;-)).
 As for the danger of inbreeding - it seems there are devoted Kuvasz
fanciers around here, and with the possibility of keeping the stock fresh
with blood from home if needed I would not think this should be a major
concern. In any case, for the original question of finding literature on
them let me repeat here what was already posted to Usenet: a document file
may be obtained via anonymous FTP from rtfm.mit.edu under
/pub/usenet/news.answers/dogs-faq/kuvaszok (or, send email to
 with send usenet/news.answers/dogs-faq/breeds/kuvaszok
in the body of the message, leaving the subject line empty) - posted by
Melissa Paul > who might be able to provide more info.
 A few interesting bits: The Kuvasz
arrived with nomadic tribes in Hungary's Carpathian Basin about 896
AD.  It was used and bred first by shepherds and later by Hungarian
nobility.  Its most notable promoter was King Matthius Corvinus I, who
ruled Hungary from 1458 - 1490.  Matthius kept a pack of Kuvaszok for
hunting and had at least one Kuvasz beside him at all times for
protection from assassins.  Since it is an odorless breed, specially
cleaned and trained Kuvaszok were also used at royal banquets as
dinner napkins!
[...] It is a one-family
dog, fiercely loyal and loving to its owners, but aggressively
territorial and suspicious of strangers.  The Kuvasz is very strong,
very fast, and very tough, yet with its own family is calm, playful,
clownish and affectionate.  It is especially gentle and forgiving with
children; however, children must also be trained that a dog is not a
toy and must be treated with kindness and respect.

If  you would like more information about Kuvasz Fanciers of America,
_The Candle_ newsletter, Kuvasz rescue and KFA's many other
activities, please contact:

Gail Dash, Secretary
Kuvasz Fanciers of America
PO Box 7115
Mission Hills, CA 91346
(818) 366-5333

-- Zoli, whose favorite is 'uszka1r' (poodle); yeah, call me decadent :-)
PS but not the ones with the silly lionish 'do ;-)

Greg, with one of those trick questions:

>> > There should not be any such a concept in Hungary as "multiculturalism".
>>  There is none.
> Yes, but *should* there be one?
>
> And what is an acceptable minorities policy other than Greg
"multiculturalism"?
 I think  "multiculturalism" in the context Paul brought up and I guess
you're referring to has connotations deeply rooted in the USA scene - if
you really want a debate with it, define it first for me will you ;-).
The minorities issue is vastly different on the old continent, where the
immigration question is much less prevalent (with special exceptions like
Germany, or the French-Arabs), *and* the countries have their own
indigeneous population historically rooted there.
 The only acceptable policy is to cultivate each nation's own culture and
let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs. But I would not link this to the
cultural war visualized by some between WASP-America and the rest ;-(...

-- Zoli
 * In America, a hundred year is a long time;
 * in Europe, a hundred mile is a long distance.

Dear Marc,

Thank you for your understanding of my emotional reaction to Gyula Horn's
past but at the same time I am absolutely delighted that  "most people to
whom [you] spoke were surprisingly optimistic about the future." I think this
is great and it was exactly that kind optimism which I missed in Hungary at
my last visit. The psychologically speaking, it is very important that the
population feels that there is a future, and a good future, ahead of them.
The kind of pessimism which pervaded the whole country by 1992 was not a good
development. Mind you, I think there is reason for optimism. Unemployment,
even if slowly, is going down. Salaries are up. And if the government does
what it promises, that is, to accelerate privatization, the likelihood of
economic improvement is promising.

You reminded me that "some of [my] co-revolutionists are active members of
the SZDSZ." You are quite right, and I very much would have wished that the
SZDSZ and the FIDESZ had done better. (I am sure that I am not the only one
to think so!) Originally I didn't think that a coalition between MSZP and
SZDSZ was a good idea. However, lately I have changed my mind maybe as a
result of the media hype about the necessity of such a coalition! The
arguments in favor of a coalition are that (1) the SZDSZ would be a
moderating influence on MSZP which is a mixed bag, (2) that the electorate is
in favor of such a coalition, and (3) they can always quit the coalition and
make a splash at that time but they sure can't join the coalition later.

Eva Balogh

Marc Nasdor writes:

> Re Fekete's comment about the socialist/capitalist Jewish connection:

> One should not forget to point out that after WWII, many Jews were
naturally
> drawn toward the Communist party not only out of a desire for revenge,
but
> as a haven of safety from what must have been perceived as a Hungarian
> populace with an anti-Jewish nature.

If you are phrasing correctly what you mean, I have a great deal of trouble
with your statement. It indicates that both the communists and the Jews
were attracted to a regime that provided "safety" from the Hungarian
populace and they did that in Hungary. It is an interesting statement.

> With all the talk of Hungarian anti-Semitism, I personally believe most
of it
> is a lot of baloney, particularly in the last decade. Unfortunately, the
> charge gets employed by those who seem to feel that fear-mongering will
some-
> how advance their desire of dividing the Hungarian people. It's 1994, and
the
> citizens of Hungary have had enough of it. Evidently, those who disagree
> didn't bother to vote in the last election.
>                                              Regards, Marc
I believe that anti-Semitism was always a territory of a small minority in
Hungary.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Durant writes:

> For the new yuppy-strata life is better, but for the majority (see
> election results) the living standard is worse in Hungary (also in
> the UK and in the USA in the last two decades, correct me if I'm
Wait a second, how many votes did the sovcialist or communist parties
got in either the US or UK elections? As I stated before the voters can
not be smart only when they vote for the left.

wrong.)
> In my experience to make a lot of money you have to be totally single
> minded, ruthless and a few other things  like lucky -
I think that is sheer BS. Sorry for the wording but that is exactly how
I feel. Please get a life.

> ofcourse you may be perfectly civil for your family and friends.

As you can see I am not!

> The unemloyed people I know are far from happy, mostly have ill health
> and family problems due to low self-esteem and hopelessness. I remem-
> ber the feeling, and it is no use to be told that it is not society's
but
> your own fault, when hundreds are fighting for the few available
crappy
> jobs. (There again, there were only 92 applications for the one I
should be
> doing now... and I am from the lucky few, who actually enjoys the work
- could
> do with flexibility and shorter hours...) Eva Durant
Yeah, and I am waiting for the new socialist or communist revolution.
Because of that, I am not going to sleep tonight.

Jeliko.

Pardon me for butting into this conversation, but I can support what is
being said.  I was in Budapest in June in 1991.  Budapest is beautiful
in June.  I have it on good authority that God takes his vacation in
Budapest in June.  I found the Hungarian people very forthright and
candid.  Very human, I thought, and properly cynical as all thoughtful
adults are.  Anyway, the point is that I couldn't sleep one night, and
spent several hours drinking beer and chatting with the night clerk.  He
said that most of the people he knew bought Czech and German products
whenever they could.  "We make junk," I remember him saying.  Not when
it comes to music, wine and food, though.

Jeliko may be right about the problem of initiative, but my impression
was that the Hungarians were going through a period in which they were
groping their way.  When I was there, the Russians hadn't gone yet.
They were supposed to leave by 6 June, but they hadn't.  Frequently
one say "6 June" painted on the walls of the otherwise clean Metro
stations.  While I was there, I saw no Russians.  They were keeping
a very low profile.  There were no customers at the Aeroflot office,
but the Swissair office was crowded.  It wasn't hard to like the
Hungarian people, and to admire them.

Jeliko is also correct about the bureaucratic wrangling and the residue
left by the communists, but I've said enough.

Charles Atherton

In reply to your message of "Wed, 13 Jul 94 20: 37:05 EDT."
             >
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 19:12:42 -0700
From: 

Zoli Fekete writes:
>  Greg, with one of those trick questions:
You have got to stop being shy about expressing yourself.

>  The only acceptable policy is to cultivate each nation's own culture and
> let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs.
But this isn't multiculturalism?

--Greg

In reply to your message of "Wed, 13 Jul 94 16: 01:23 PDT."
             >
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 19:27:22 -0700
From: 

Andra1s Kornai writes:
> So what? Beggars were with us from the beginning of time, and now that the
> world is richer we can tolerate a larger number of them.
toleration != subsidy


--Greg

Joe-

Are there any political texts in English that you know of, so I can read them
for myself, of Csurka, that is?

- Marc

Greg,
>>  Greg, with one of those trick questions:
>You have got to stop being shy about expressing yourself.
 Why, do you have a niece or someone (perhaps even a mulicultural one) ;-)?!

>>  The only acceptable [minority] policy is to cultivate each nation's
>> own culture and let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs.
>But this isn't multiculturalism?
 I think in the current USA lingo it is not necesseraly, certainly not
in the liberal-bashing strain Jeliko&Paul brought in, but you tell me.
Remember, I asked you to express your definition of the term ;-(...

-- Zoli

Marc,

The entire famous article was published in English translation in the
Joint Publications Research Service's (JPRS) series on Eastern Europe
in the same year.  Excerpt also appeared in the Federal Broadcast Infor-
mation Service's Eastern Europe Reports (FBIS), along with some excerpts
of reactions (Debreczeni's letter, etc.).  Most university libraries
carry them (I think), or maybe quite a good public library would have
them too.  I don't know what else by Csurka (any of his "literary"
works?) has appeared in English translation.

Contact me off-list if you have trouble locating them, and I'll see if
I can get them here.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

In reply to your message of "Wed, 13 Jul 94 22: 41:24 EDT."
             >
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 19:58:55 -0700
From: 

>  Greg,
> >>  Greg, with one of those trick questions:
> >You have got to stop being shy about expressing yourself.
>  Why, do you have a niece or someone (perhaps even a mulicultural one) ;-)?!
Now you move from jocosity to jesting.


> >>  The only acceptable [minority] policy is to cultivate each nation's
> >> own culture and let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs.
> >But this isn't multiculturalism?
>  I think in the current USA lingo it is not necesseraly, certainly not
> in the liberal-bashing strain Jeliko&Paul brought in, but you tell me.
> Remember, I asked you to express your definition of the term ;-(...
Yeah, but only after you told us there was no such thing in Hungary.  But, yes,
   "The only acceptable [minority] policy is to cultivate each nation's
    own culture and let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs"
sounds like a working definition of multiculturalism to me.


--Greg

I would be interested in any political texts in English also. Susan

Dear Greg,
>> >>  Greg, with one of those trick questions:
>> >You have got to stop being shy about expressing yourself.
>> Why, do you have a niece or someone (perhaps even a mulicultural
>Now you move from jocosity to jesting.
 Well, thank you - glad you noticed a switch ;-). Why, I'm tan, jested
and ready! Actually I had a serious point as well: shyness does not
have to do with my reluctance to treate the list (or myself ;-() with
writings whose accent is on my opinion of things (which does not mean I
do not realize that the pieces I consider factually dealing with the
things themselves carry some opinion with them too). I just do really
dislike meandering threads with diminishing rationality ;-)!
 Also I wanted to demonstrate via a hypothetical person (for if you
have a real niece it was not her :-)) that I am not a PC-infected
zombie whose soul could only be saved with sufficient dose of d'Souza...

>>>>  The only acceptable [minority] policy is to cultivate each nation's
>>>> own culture and let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs.
>>>But this isn't multiculturalism?
>>  I think in the current USA lingo it is not necesseraly, certainly
>> in the liberal-bashing strain Jeliko&Paul brought in, but you tell me.
>> Remember, I asked you to express your definition of the term ;-(...
>Yeah, but only after you told us there was no such thing in Hungary.
 Which was told in the context provided by Paul...
>But, yes,
>   "The only acceptable [minority] policy is to cultivate each
> nation's own culture and let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs"
>sounds like a working definition of multiculturalism to me.
 Apparently it is not working for Paul (therefore me neither), for I
cannot see how such tolerance would possibly result in his Grave New
World?! That's why I try to steer clear of ill-defined, loaded and
emotionally laden terms.

-- Zoli

> Are there any political texts in English that you know of, so I can read them
> for myself, of Csurka, that is?
>
> - Marc

I doubt much of his writings have been translated to English.  Besides,
who would publish it, considering the reputation he's got? ;-)
But having a Hungarian wife, you have automatically got yourself your
own personal translator, no? ;-)

Joe